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  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Brom said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:



    So why try and amend the bill, if you’re going to vote against it anyway?

    Um, maybe I'm just being irritable (early morning seminar two hours' drive away coming up) but this is Politics 101. If you don't like a proposal, first try to make it less bad. That doesn't mean you support it. Are you proposing a new doctrine, that unless you support something, you are not allowed to proposed amendments to it?

    That said, if the deal was modified to include a CU and a referendum between that (effectively soft Brexit) and Remain, I doubt if we'd oppose it. Maybe that's where we'll collectively end up.
    It is remarkable how, over and over, hardline Leavers seek to bludgeon their own version of Brexit through the House of Commons when a different version would sail through. It’s almost as if they don’t really want to leave the EU at all.
    Was that not disproved with the indicative votes?
    No. Plenty of the indicative votes would have had huge majorities had the hardliners not been implacably opposed to them.
    Such as?
    Kenneth Clarke's customs union and Nick Boles's common market 2.0 proposals.
    They failed by large margins.

    They might have passed if a second referendum had been attached and the Government promoted it but why would they?
    By "large margins"?
    Ken Clarke's Customs Union failed by 3 votes.
    A vote on a customs union is a waste of time as it hasn't been negotiated and the EU are not interested. It is just a wrecking amendment.

    The options are:

    Deal
    No Deal
    Revoke
    2nd Ref
    Election

    Any tampering with the negotiated WA is just a waste of time for both sides.
    Except to offer the EU further unilateral concessions. They'd be happy to re-open the WA for that. This is, I believe, Labour Party policy, but who can tell?
    True, but I'd think that would have to come with a Lab government after a GE. Not sure Boris would offer the EU further concessions as he would lose ERG support and it would be pointless. Equally EU unlikely to reopen WA unless circumstances change massively e.g. Corbyn PM.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Mr. Brom, aye. The Pussyfooting Parliament will probably vote for whatever avoids them actually making a decision, though.

    It was always thus. Thankfully they cannot buy time forever and the mood music seems to be leaning towards the impasse ending.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Brom said:

    eek said:

    philiph said:

    Brom said:

    Morning all,

    Think if Bercow doesn't allow a vote on the deal then it's a good thing for the government as it further suggests they have the number. Just can't see Macron and Merkel allowing for an extension without a vote on a deal, after all it's just Bercow rather than Boris wasting the EU's time and they'll likely give him short shrift.

    I think it is a fair point that the EU will be unimpressed if there isn't a vote on the deal.

    They can tailor an extension offer on the outcome of a vote on the current deal. Having invested in making the deal I suspect they will be scratching heads at our inability to put it to a straight vote.

    Talk of an extension to end of February, if that is what was done, does rather rule out a second referendum as there isn't enough time.

    That leaves No Deal, Deal by 31st Oct (or after a short technical extension to clear up legislation) or revoke as the options available.

    What are the chances of another renegotiation? As each deal is rejected the chances of finding the goodwill to return to the negotiating table are reduced. If there is an election unless it gives a thumping majority to one side another renegotiation is less likely because of the rejection of the last two agreements.
    The thing is there was a vote but no one paid attention to it.

    On Saturday Letwin's amendment was passed.

    The bill then went through on the nod with Letwin's amendment as part of it - so what is the point of bring the bill back to Parliament when they've already voted for it.

    The Government now needs to bring the actual bill to Parliament so it can be debated and voted on.

    However that bill is supposedly already a mess with a lot of gotchas that people won't be expecting


    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1186197513717587969
    I don't think anyone outside of Bercow's house believed this oral vote was a vote. Certainly the noises from Macron and the EU yesterday were that they expected a vote on the deal, so clearly the speaker hasn't pulled the wool over their eyes.
    But the official record of the proceedings is Hansard. And rightly or wrongly this was recorded as a vote which passed the motion as amended. The only question really is whether the motion as amended require a further confirmatory vote once the WAIB has been passed or whether it is automatically considered to have been agreed.
    It is explicitly required by the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. But it's not required to happen before the WAIB is passed. Unfortunately it seems the EU would like it to happen before the European Parliament ratifies.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1186187728586719232

    This sounds like he's building up any old excuse to go back on his promise and vote against the deal. Incredibly transparent from Boles
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Pulpstar said:
    Turning Trump into a laughing stock would be the worst punishment for him.

    Trouble is, his base think you are also laughing at them.
  • timmotimmo Posts: 1,469
    Brom said:

    kinabalu said:

    Brom said:

    A vote on a customs union is a waste of time as it hasn't been negotiated and the EU are not interested. It is just a wrecking amendment.

    The options are:

    Deal
    No Deal
    Revoke
    2nd Ref
    Election

    Any tampering with the negotiated WA is just a waste of time for both sides.

    Or, IMO, simpler than this.

    It's Deal or Election.
    Yes, I wouldn't rule any of the 5 out completely but I'd think deal is 50% chance, election 40% and the other 3 must total 10%
    I still keep on asking on here..how do the government get a GE when it keeps getting blocked?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    Brom said:

    Yes, I wouldn't rule any of the 5 out completely but I'd think deal is 50% chance, election 40% and the other 3 must total 10%

    Yes, about that. And given GE probably returns Johnson with more seats, it still leads to this Deal.

    So Deal is 50% plus (40% x 90%) - i.e. approx 86%

    False precision there, obvs, but the bottom line is clear -

    We are leaving with this Deal and quite soon.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Brom said:

    https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1186187728586719232

    This sounds like he's building up any old excuse to go back on his promise and vote against the deal. Incredibly transparent from Boles

    Most likely way to provoke no deal.... 2nd reading passes, EU say 2 week extension to make sure all legislation passed, no further extensions and Boles and others reverse ferret in a huff and we no deal
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,216
    Brom said:

    https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1186187728586719232

    This sounds like he's building up any old excuse to go back on his promise and vote against the deal. Incredibly transparent from Boles

    If the bill gets to third reading I believe at that point Bercow must vote Aye on a tie ?
  • kinabalu said:
    Ah, for the days when politicians signed letters.
  • timmotimmo Posts: 1,469

    Brom said:

    https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1186187728586719232

    This sounds like he's building up any old excuse to go back on his promise and vote against the deal. Incredibly transparent from Boles

    Most likely way to provoke no deal.... 2nd reading passes, EU say 2 week extension to make sure all legislation passed, no further extensions and Boles and others reverse ferret in a huff and we no deal
    Who are these "friends" he is referring to?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,003
    edited October 2019

    Mr. Divvie, if the SNP had won their referendum then Scotland would be out of the EU already (and the UK).

    Slightly bizarre they campaigned to leave the EU and complain about leaving it.

    Yeah, you've said that several (hundred) times. Still waiting for that referendum literature where the SNP 'campaigned to leave the EU'.

    Otoh we have definitive proof that staying in the EU was part of Better Together's campaign.

    https://twitter.com/UK_Together/status/506899714923843584?s=20
    I do think this is an unarguable case. Better Together went big on the staying in the EU thing and this is clearly a massive material change for Scotland which voted by a very large margin to stay in the EU at the 2016 referendum.

    I think Independence would be the very clear favourite if there were a new Indy referendum.
    Cool, see you on the doorsteps comrade.

    I think we can both agree on a first principle that the people who live and work and vote in a country should have the final say on who governs them.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Mr. Brom, aye. The Pussyfooting Parliament will probably vote for whatever avoids them actually making a decision, though.

    Pussyfooting is the wrong image. The MPs if anything are rhinofooting. A better similie would be a tug of war, where two sides are pulling for dear life in opposite directions.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,814
    What time does parliament start today for the drama when Bercow kicks out the MV (we all know he’s going to)?
  • NorthstarNorthstar Posts: 140
    Brom said:

    Mr. Brom, aye. The Pussyfooting Parliament will probably vote for whatever avoids them actually making a decision, though.

    It was always thus. Thankfully they cannot buy time forever and the mood music seems to be leaning towards the impasse ending.
    I think we may all be underestimating the appetite Parliament collectively has for this to continue indefinitely.

    I can’t see how Boris gets an election any time soon.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Amazing how little reaction there's been to Boris sending the surrender letter.

    Clearly Remainers were hoping it would be End Of Days for Boris but it's been generally over shadowed by what happened in Parliament on Saturday.

    Wouldn't be surprised if Con is actually up slightly in the next batch of polls rather than the collapse Remainers were hoping for.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Amazing how little reaction there's been to Boris sending the surrender letter.

    Clearly Remainers were hoping it would be End Of Days for Boris but it's been generally over shadowed by what happened in Parliament on Saturday.

    Wouldn't be surprised if Con is actually up slightly in the next batch of polls rather than the collapse Remainers were hoping for.

    I think most people are relieved that in the end, despite the macho bluster that he wouldn't, Boris meekly feel into line and obeyed the law as the rest of us have to.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Amazing how little reaction there's been to Boris sending the surrender letter.

    Clearly Remainers were hoping it would be End Of Days for Boris but it's been generally over shadowed by what happened in Parliament on Saturday.

    Wouldn't be surprised if Con is actually up slightly in the next batch of polls rather than the collapse Remainers were hoping for.

    Getting a new deal without the backstop* changed the optics.

    * Yes i know its a lot of spin etc, but from public less concentrated view on events it will be boris got new deal, parliament played silly buggers again.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Northstar said:

    Brom said:

    Mr. Brom, aye. The Pussyfooting Parliament will probably vote for whatever avoids them actually making a decision, though.

    It was always thus. Thankfully they cannot buy time forever and the mood music seems to be leaning towards the impasse ending.
    I think we may all be underestimating the appetite Parliament collectively has for this to continue indefinitely.

    I can’t see how Boris gets an election any time soon.
    SNP might want an election before Alex is in court for alleged sex crimes at the end of January.

    Lib-Dems will be up for it as they expect to make gains.

    Not sure what DUP would do.

    Con + SNP + Lib-Dem might be enough for a one line bill.
  • What time does parliament start today for the drama when Bercow kicks out the MV (we all know he’s going to)?

    Parliament starts at 2:30 with Bercow gracing everyone with his voice apparently at 3:30 I believe.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Amazing how little reaction there's been to Boris sending the surrender letter.

    Clearly Remainers were hoping it would be End Of Days for Boris but it's been generally over shadowed by what happened in Parliament on Saturday.

    Wouldn't be surprised if Con is actually up slightly in the next batch of polls rather than the collapse Remainers were hoping for.

    I still expect Tories to poll 40%+ by the end of this month.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    I've been in a glamping yurt in Dorset since Friday. Have I missed owt?

    You make yourself sound like the ultimate People's Vote demographic!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    GIN1138 said:

    Amazing how little reaction there's been to Boris sending the surrender letter.

    Clearly Remainers were hoping it would be End Of Days for Boris but it's been generally over shadowed by what happened in Parliament on Saturday.

    Wouldn't be surprised if Con is actually up slightly in the next batch of polls rather than the collapse Remainers were hoping for.

    I still expect Tories to poll 40%+ by the end of this month.
    Wait and see how the ERG react to Johnson’s WAB.
  • Mr. Divvie, if the SNP had won their referendum then Scotland would be out of the EU already (and the UK).

    Slightly bizarre they campaigned to leave the EU and complain about leaving it.

    Yeah, you've said that several (hundred) times. Still waiting for that referendum literature where the SNP 'campaigned to leave the EU'.

    Otoh we have definitive proof that staying in the EU was part of Better Together's campaign.

    https://twitter.com/UK_Together/status/506899714923843584?s=20
    I do think this is an unarguable case. Better Together went big on the staying in the EU thing and this is clearly a massive material change for Scotland which voted by a very large margin to stay in the EU at the 2016 referendum.

    I think Independence would be the very clear favourite if there were a new Indy referendum.
    Cool, see you on the doorsteps comrade.

    I think we can both agree on a first principle that the people who live and work and vote in a country should have the final say on who governs them.
    I wouldn't consider myself eligible to vote given I live in England even though I do a lot of work in Scotland. But during the last campaign I was happy to hand out leaflets on Union Street in Aberdeen and had some fun as the pet SNP supporting Englishman.

    On a more serious note there are a lot of English I know who live in a and around Aberdeen who are Indy supporters. Given they do live there, they can see the benefits of having more control over their day to day lives irrespective of where they originally came from.
  • NorthstarNorthstar Posts: 140
    GIN1138 said:

    Northstar said:

    Brom said:

    Mr. Brom, aye. The Pussyfooting Parliament will probably vote for whatever avoids them actually making a decision, though.

    It was always thus. Thankfully they cannot buy time forever and the mood music seems to be leaning towards the impasse ending.
    I think we may all be underestimating the appetite Parliament collectively has for this to continue indefinitely.

    I can’t see how Boris gets an election any time soon.
    SNP might want an election before Alex is in court for alleged sex crimes at the end of January.

    Lib-Dems will be up for it as they expect to make gains.

    Not sure what DUP would do.

    Con + SNP + Lib-Dem might be enough for a one line bill.
    I hope so. I think the Lib Dems won’t back one until a long extension or 2nd ref are in the bag, which may mean a lengthy stalemate, especially if there’s a slow drift back to Labour in the polls.
  • What time does parliament start today for the drama when Bercow kicks out the MV (we all know he’s going to)?

    It is not being re-introduced. the WAIB is
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    Turning Trump into a laughing stock would be the worst punishment for him.

    Trouble is, his base think you are also laughing at them.

    Which we are TBF. He's the abuser and his base are the enablers.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    GIN1138 said:

    Amazing how little reaction there's been to Boris sending the surrender letter.

    Clearly Remainers were hoping it would be End Of Days for Boris but it's been generally over shadowed by what happened in Parliament on Saturday.

    Wouldn't be surprised if Con is actually up slightly in the next batch of polls rather than the collapse Remainers were hoping for.

    Getting a new deal without the backstop* changed the optics.

    * Yes i know its a lot of spin etc, but from public less concentrated view on events it will be boris got new deal, parliament played silly buggers again.
    Farage now demanding an extension so we can stay in longer and not leave on 31st October???? also takes a lot of heat out of it from the Brexit side.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,263
    Brom said:

    Carnyx said:

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Poor HYUFD, a stranger in his own party. I'm sure like other PB Tories he'll make an accommodation with the new order though.

    https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1186176541908062208?s=20

    Thankfully I suspect we'll leave the EU and keep the Union. Quite likely judging by indy polls north of the border anyway
    The statistical tie polling you mean? I'll take a wild guess that your confidence doesn't stretch to wanting the people you vote for in England allowing people in Scotland a vote to test the matter.
    Just remind me how many polls Yes has lead in? Can't be many, not to mention the fact that parliament has no interest in granting the loser another vote...
    I hope you're not one of those Leavers who continually whines on about democracy.
    Sounds like you have little respect for the majority of your countrymen (both Scots and Brits). But fair play for your persistence.
    I support what the majority of people in my country wants. You want what the majority of people in your country wants to be imposed on the majority of people in my country.
    We seem to be seeing a view that if the polling for indyref is low, we shouldn't have one.

    And if the polling is high, we shouldn't have one.
    Why would you want one anyway? Clearly in the current age people won't accept the result, the people will march on the streets and millionaires will fund court cases to block it. Eventually there will be a 3rd indyref where the vote is overturned. I presume Scottish Nats will be cool with that though...
    "Once in a generation" :-)

    (I know the Durgin' Sturgeon thinks she is a fruit fly, but we should not listen to that.)
  • Pulpstar said:

    Brom said:

    https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1186187728586719232

    This sounds like he's building up any old excuse to go back on his promise and vote against the deal. Incredibly transparent from Boles

    If the bill gets to third reading I believe at that point Bercow must vote Aye on a tie ?
    He won't be there if it is post 31st October
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    GIN1138 said:

    Amazing how little reaction there's been to Boris sending the surrender letter.

    Clearly Remainers were hoping it would be End Of Days for Boris but it's been generally over shadowed by what happened in Parliament on Saturday.

    Wouldn't be surprised if Con is actually up slightly in the next batch of polls rather than the collapse Remainers were hoping for.

    Could well be. But if he gets bogged down for a prolonged period, no Brexit, no GE, lengthy extension, how that will poll is unpredictable.
  • I've been in a glamping yurt in Dorset since Friday. Have I missed owt?

    You make yourself sound like the ultimate People's Vote demographic!
    Though an omission of the 'g' in glamping might have turned the whole thing quite Leavey.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,216

    Pulpstar said:

    Brom said:

    https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1186187728586719232

    This sounds like he's building up any old excuse to go back on his promise and vote against the deal. Incredibly transparent from Boles

    If the bill gets to third reading I believe at that point Bercow must vote Aye on a tie ?
    He won't be there if it is post 31st October
    He speaker at the time
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    An expert in energy this morning stated that the UK is one of the World's best green energy countries and has a really good record on climate change and environmental policies

    He went on to say the UK is responsible for 1% of emissions leaving the ROW at 99%

    So these climate change extremist need to direct their attention elsewhere

    Slightly more than 1% if you consider cumulative CO2 emissions since the industrial revolution. We are responsible for a big chunk of the problem. (Sorry I don't have a precise figure) As one of the world's richest nations, a member of the G7, permanent member of the UN Security Council, etc, the UK should be at the vanguard of addressing climate change.

    Even Exxon are now advocating Carbon Capture & Storage. The world is changing.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Brom said:

    https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1186187728586719232

    This sounds like he's building up any old excuse to go back on his promise and vote against the deal. Incredibly transparent from Boles

    If the bill gets to third reading I believe at that point Bercow must vote Aye on a tie ?
    He won't be there if it is post 31st October
    He speaker at the time
    The maybe
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    edited October 2019
    Northstar said:

    I think we may all be underestimating the appetite Parliament collectively has for this to continue indefinitely.

    I can’t see how Boris gets an election any time soon.

    A bill can be brought for a GE on a fixed date. Would pass the HoC on a simple majority if SNP and LD support it. GE then follows after HoL assent.

    That's one way. There are a couple of others too.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Mr. Divvie, if the SNP had won their referendum then Scotland would be out of the EU already (and the UK).

    Slightly bizarre they campaigned to leave the EU and complain about leaving it.

    Yeah, you've said that several (hundred) times. Still waiting for that referendum literature where the SNP 'campaigned to leave the EU'.

    Otoh we have definitive proof that staying in the EU was part of Better Together's campaign.

    https://twitter.com/UK_Together/status/506899714923843584?s=20
    I do think this is an unarguable case. Better Together went big on the staying in the EU thing and this is clearly a massive material change for Scotland which voted by a very large margin to stay in the EU at the 2016 referendum.

    I think Independence would be the very clear favourite if there were a new Indy referendum.
    Cool, see you on the doorsteps comrade.

    I think we can both agree on a first principle that the people who live and work and vote in a country should have the final say on who governs them.
    But people who live in Southampton Itchen have much more of a "final say" than people in Manchester Gordon.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Amazing how little reaction there's been to Boris sending the surrender letter.

    Clearly Remainers were hoping it would be End Of Days for Boris but it's been generally over shadowed by what happened in Parliament on Saturday.

    Wouldn't be surprised if Con is actually up slightly in the next batch of polls rather than the collapse Remainers were hoping for.

    I still expect Tories to poll 40%+ by the end of this month.
    The important thing is that we leave the EU on 31st October (or within a few weeks of that date if a short technical extension is required). If that happens no-one will care that Boris wrote a letter.
  • timmotimmo Posts: 1,469
    Northstar said:

    Brom said:

    Mr. Brom, aye. The Pussyfooting Parliament will probably vote for whatever avoids them actually making a decision, though.

    It was always thus. Thankfully they cannot buy time forever and the mood music seems to be leaning towards the impasse ending.
    I think we may all be underestimating the appetite Parliament collectively has for this to continue indefinitely.

    I can’t see how Boris gets an election any time soon.
    Totally Agree
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Northstar said:

    Brom said:

    Mr. Brom, aye. The Pussyfooting Parliament will probably vote for whatever avoids them actually making a decision, though.

    It was always thus. Thankfully they cannot buy time forever and the mood music seems to be leaning towards the impasse ending.
    I think we may all be underestimating the appetite Parliament collectively has for this to continue indefinitely.

    I can’t see how Boris gets an election any time soon.
    If the WAIB looks like going through with the Irish Sea border intact I can see the DUP supporting a VONC if there is no other way of stopping it. They will never agree to the Irish Sea border. Never never never, as someone once said.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236
    edited October 2019

    Mr. Divvie, if the SNP had won their referendum then Scotland would be out of the EU already (and the UK).

    Slightly bizarre they campaigned to leave the EU and complain about leaving it.

    Yeah, you've said that several (hundred) times. Still waiting for that referendum literature where the SNP 'campaigned to leave the EU'.

    Otoh we have definitive proof that staying in the EU was part of Better Together's campaign.

    https://twitter.com/UK_Together/status/506899714923843584?s=20
    I do think this is an unarguable case. Better Together went big on the staying in the EU thing and this is clearly a massive material change for Scotland which voted by a very large margin to stay in the EU at the 2016 referendum.

    I think Independence would be the very clear favourite if there were a new Indy referendum.
    Good lord - something else I agree with you on, Richard. :smile:

    (Though I am still in favour of the union.)
  • An expert in energy this morning stated that the UK is one of the World's best green energy countries and has a really good record on climate change and environmental policies

    He went on to say the UK is responsible for 1% of emissions leaving the ROW at 99%

    So these climate change extremist need to direct their attention elsewhere

    We should be proud of the the changes we have already made. We are around 1% of the population so 1% of the emissions is only going to be around average per capita. There are also other environmental impacts beyond emissions that need to be looked at.

    I think we can probably make a bigger difference by creating and sharing environmentally friendly tech and processes across the globe than we can by focussing internally. We could have been even better at that had we not damaged our credibility and power on the international stage through brexit.

  • An expert in energy this morning stated that the UK is one of the World's best green energy countries and has a really good record on climate change and environmental policies

    He went on to say the UK is responsible for 1% of emissions leaving the ROW at 99%

    So these climate change extremist need to direct their attention elsewhere

    Slightly more than 1% if you consider cumulative CO2 emissions since the industrial revolution. We are responsible for a big chunk of the problem. (Sorry I don't have a precise figure) As one of the world's richest nations, a member of the G7, permanent member of the UN Security Council, etc, the UK should be at the vanguard of addressing climate change.

    Even Exxon are now advocating Carbon Capture & Storage. The world is changing.
    We are at the vanguard according to this expert

    He indicated the problem was 99% outside the UK and he is running a Worldwide Energy Business employing over 145,000
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    Ah, for the days when politicians signed letters.

    :smile:

    No standards now. Not even the basic niceties. Might not bother to write anything in my Christmas cards this year.

    Re Indy - would you settle for FFA?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    GIN1138 said:

    Amazing how little reaction there's been to Boris sending the surrender letter.

    Clearly Remainers were hoping it would be End Of Days for Boris but it's been generally over shadowed by what happened in Parliament on Saturday.

    Wouldn't be surprised if Con is actually up slightly in the next batch of polls rather than the collapse Remainers were hoping for.

    I still expect Tories to poll 40%+ by the end of this month.
    The important thing is that we leave the EU on 31st October (or within a few weeks of that date if a short technical extension is required). If that happens no-one will care that Boris wrote a letter.
    To be fair he didn't send *the* letter - he sent an unisgned photocopy! :D
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133
    edited October 2019

    An expert in energy this morning stated that the UK is one of the World's best green energy countries and has a really good record on climate change and environmental policies

    He went on to say the UK is responsible for 1% of emissions leaving the ROW at 99%

    So these climate change extremist need to direct their attention elsewhere

    We should be proud of the the changes we have already made. We are around 1% of the population so 1% of the emissions is only going to be around average per capita. There are also other environmental impacts beyond emissions that need to be looked at.

    I think we can probably make a bigger difference by creating and sharing environmentally friendly tech and processes across the globe than we can by focussing internally. We could have been even better at that had we not damaged our credibility and power on the international stage through brexit.

    To be honest you are very much in line with the comments made by this expert this am though he did not mention Brexit
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    It has been fun this past 2 days seeing Conservatives trying to convince themselves and the rest of us that the motion (as amended) was not passed on Saturday, when we all saw exactly what happened in the Commons straight after the amendment was passed.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited October 2019
    CatMan said:
    The FTA negotiations will be after a genral election and probable majority Conservative government though which will make a big difference to all the bickering we see in Parliament.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GIN1138 said:

    To be fair he didn't send *the* letter - he sent an unisgned photocopy! :D


  • It has been fun this past 2 days seeing Conservatives trying to convince themselves and the rest of us that the motion (as amended) was not passed on Saturday, when we all saw exactly what happened in the Commons straight after the amendment was passed.

    Not me and of course Bercow is right in saying no, and I cannot stand the man
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    If anyone has the appetite for anything not Brexit-related, how does the brains trust feel about this limitation of freedom of speech?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/oct/21/drill-rapper-rico-racks-jailed-and-banned-from-rapping-certain-words?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571651361

    Obviously drug-dealing is bad and I have no problem with the prison sentence for that, but banning rappers from using particular words?
  • GIN1138 said:

    Amazing how little reaction there's been to Boris sending the surrender letter.

    Clearly Remainers were hoping it would be End Of Days for Boris but it's been generally over shadowed by what happened in Parliament on Saturday.

    Wouldn't be surprised if Con is actually up slightly in the next batch of polls rather than the collapse Remainers were hoping for.

    I still expect Tories to poll 40%+ by the end of this month.
    The important thing is that we leave the EU on 31st October (or within a few weeks of that date if a short technical extension is required). If that happens no-one will care that Boris wrote a letter.
    I don't think anyone who cares if we don't leave on Hallowe'en will blame Boris, they will know exactly who is to blame.
  • kinabalu said:

    Ah, for the days when politicians signed letters.

    :smile:

    No standards now. Not even the basic niceties. Might not bother to write anything in my Christmas cards this year.

    Re Indy - would you settle for FFA?
    I might have gone for that if it was an option in 2014, now, probably not. The urge to remove all chance of having a BJ imposed upon me is strong.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    Does no one else find it strange how nuts the DUP have been going this week, given they were basically in the room all of last week and the week before, when the regulatory alignment issue was first put on paper (basically the biggest part of the compromise from which all else follows)?

    What's also odd is this latest statement from them that they would vote against a Customs Union amendment, given it's probably their best hope of crashing the deal.

    What also struck me as odd on Saturday was that Kate Hoey, basically the 11th member of the DUP at this point, voted against Letwin.

    I don't claim to understand Northern Ireland politics much at all but I can't help but think they're not as upset as they are claiming to be and this is a lot of fireworks to impress their core voters prior to an imminent election. And it's all good politics because Bojo has told them he's got the numbers without them anyway. So everyone goes back to their voters happy and they're all good friends again after the election if it's hung / tight majority.

    I don't make political bets but I do carry currency risk and I'm buying sterling.
  • CatMan said:
    At least with Mays deal there would have been time for a short pause to draw breath between the exit date and the next negotiations. Even if we leave in ten days the arguments about the future relationship will need to start pretty much immediately, and on that the tory party is still very split.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    Chris said:

    It is explicitly required by the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. But it's not required to happen before the WAIB is passed. Unfortunately it seems the EU would like it to happen before the European Parliament ratifies.

    Saturday's carried motion (as amended) explicitly withheld consent for the Deal until after the WAIB is passed - therefore it seems to follow that a MV will now be required after that. And the WAIB is amendable for Ref2 and CU etc etc.

    Hulk is tied down again, in other words.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    CatMan said:
    At least with Mays deal there would have been time for a short pause to draw breath between the exit date and the next negotiations. Even if we leave in ten days the arguments about the future relationship will need to start pretty much immediately, and on that the tory party is still very split.
    Not to mention the arguments about extending the transition.
  • It has been fun this past 2 days seeing Conservatives trying to convince themselves and the rest of us that the motion (as amended) was not passed on Saturday, when we all saw exactly what happened in the Commons straight after the amendment was passed.

    The motion as amended was passed.

    The motion unamended was not and should be voted on today.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    An expert in energy this morning stated that the UK is one of the World's best green energy countries and has a really good record on climate change and environmental policies

    He went on to say the UK is responsible for 1% of emissions leaving the ROW at 99%

    So these climate change extremist need to direct their attention elsewhere

    Slightly more than 1% if you consider cumulative CO2 emissions since the industrial revolution. We are responsible for a big chunk of the problem. (Sorry I don't have a precise figure) As one of the world's richest nations, a member of the G7, permanent member of the UN Security Council, etc, the UK should be at the vanguard of addressing climate change.

    Even Exxon are now advocating Carbon Capture & Storage. The world is changing.
    We are at the vanguard according to this expert

    He indicated the problem was 99% outside the UK and he is running a Worldwide Energy Business employing over 145,000
    This is all part of a wider debate. The UK (and others) have achieved economic prosperity through environmentally damaging practices - burning fossil fuels, chopping down forests, depleting fish stocks, etc. Now we expect the developing world not to follow the same path to prosperity. Do as we say, not as we do (or rather did).

    Such an approach isn't going to work. There needs to be give and take. The developed world needs to act to reverse the historical damage it is responsible for, as well as facilitating green growth elsewhere.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited October 2019

    GIN1138 said:

    Amazing how little reaction there's been to Boris sending the surrender letter.

    Clearly Remainers were hoping it would be End Of Days for Boris but it's been generally over shadowed by what happened in Parliament on Saturday.

    Wouldn't be surprised if Con is actually up slightly in the next batch of polls rather than the collapse Remainers were hoping for.

    I think most people are relieved that in the end, despite the macho bluster that he wouldn't, Boris meekly feel into line and obeyed the law as the rest of us have to.
    Outrage, he sent a letter
    Outrage, (had) he broken the law
    Outrage he sent a letter and lied
    Outrage he sent more than one letter

    Fact he sent the letter that was mandated by parliament, he was forced to do so by the Benn act / amendments. He was reluctant to send it but complied with the law.

    Results options:
    Faux outrage from obsessives which reflects badly on the campaigns and positions of those making it, who are mostly Mr Farage and various strands of Remain supporters.
    or
    Shrug from the rest of the world who are then derided as hypocrites by some of the more extreme point scoring obsessives.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I don't think anyone who cares if we don't leave on Hallowe'en will blame Boris, they will know exactly who is to blame.

    The ERG who refused to vote for leaving in March
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Brom said:

    https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1186187728586719232

    This sounds like he's building up any old excuse to go back on his promise and vote against the deal. Incredibly transparent from Boles

    If the bill gets to third reading I believe at that point Bercow must vote Aye on a tie ?
    He won't be there if it is post 31st October
    He speaker at the time
    There's a rumour that he'll stay on if his country still needs him.
    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/will-john-bercow-break-his-promise-to-resign/
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490
    Scott_P said:
    As someone clever said here yesterday, this little scrote is just looking for a face saving way to withdraw his support. He was going to do it over the Mccarthy act, now he's going to do it over 'briefings'. No point in altering the strategy a whit to appease him; it won't work.
  • An expert in energy this morning stated that the UK is one of the World's best green energy countries and has a really good record on climate change and environmental policies

    He went on to say the UK is responsible for 1% of emissions leaving the ROW at 99%

    So these climate change extremist need to direct their attention elsewhere

    Slightly more than 1% if you consider cumulative CO2 emissions since the industrial revolution. We are responsible for a big chunk of the problem. (Sorry I don't have a precise figure) As one of the world's richest nations, a member of the G7, permanent member of the UN Security Council, etc, the UK should be at the vanguard of addressing climate change.

    Even Exxon are now advocating Carbon Capture & Storage. The world is changing.
    We are at the vanguard according to this expert

    He indicated the problem was 99% outside the UK and he is running a Worldwide Energy Business employing over 145,000
    Sorry, but that is a really stupid argument. No single country in the world is responsible for more than a few percent of global emissions. Does that mean they can all say, "Not me, guv. It's everyone else's fault"?
  • If anyone has the appetite for anything not Brexit-related, how does the brains trust feel about this limitation of freedom of speech?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/oct/21/drill-rapper-rico-racks-jailed-and-banned-from-rapping-certain-words?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571651361

    Obviously drug-dealing is bad and I have no problem with the prison sentence for that, but banning rappers from using particular words?

    Where Spain goes, the UK follows (as HYUFD might say).

    'Rapper jailed for three and a half years after criticising Spanish royal family'

    https://tinyurl.com/y6btbjur
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited October 2019
    moonshine said:

    Does no one else find it strange how nuts the DUP have been going this week

    Well the DUP are generally quite strange and "enraged" seems to be their default position.

    That said you could well be on to something here.

    The deal is a bloody good one for NI but DUP have to play to their voters who are probably even madder than the official DUP lol!
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    If anyone has the appetite for anything not Brexit-related, how does the brains trust feel about this limitation of freedom of speech?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/oct/21/drill-rapper-rico-racks-jailed-and-banned-from-rapping-certain-words?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571651361

    Obviously drug-dealing is bad and I have no problem with the prison sentence for that, but banning rappers from using particular words?

    Daft. I get that there are limits on free speech, which is where legislation on e.g. hate speech or incitement comes in. Those words don't (IMO) fall into those categories.

    Feels like overreach to me, and a bad precedent.
  • It has been fun this past 2 days seeing Conservatives trying to convince themselves and the rest of us that the motion (as amended) was not passed on Saturday, when we all saw exactly what happened in the Commons straight after the amendment was passed.

    It is bizarre they think the speaker could accept a rerun of Saturday, I thought leavers were against losers revotes?
  • NorthstarNorthstar Posts: 140

    An expert in energy this morning stated that the UK is one of the World's best green energy countries and has a really good record on climate change and environmental policies

    He went on to say the UK is responsible for 1% of emissions leaving the ROW at 99%

    So these climate change extremist need to direct their attention elsewhere

    Slightly more than 1% if you consider cumulative CO2 emissions since the industrial revolution. We are responsible for a big chunk of the problem. (Sorry I don't have a precise figure) As one of the world's richest nations, a member of the G7, permanent member of the UN Security Council, etc, the UK should be at the vanguard of addressing climate change.

    Even Exxon are now advocating Carbon Capture & Storage. The world is changing.
    We are at the vanguard according to this expert

    He indicated the problem was 99% outside the UK and he is running a Worldwide Energy Business employing over 145,000
    Sorry, but that is a really stupid argument. No single country in the world is responsible for more than a few percent of global emissions. Does that mean they can all say, "Not me, guv. It's everyone else's fault"?
    I think the point was that unifying around a message of “we’re doing well relatively speaking and can do even better with moderate lifestyle changes and significant technological investment” would be a lot more helpful than Greta et al...
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    geoffw said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Brom said:

    https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1186187728586719232

    This sounds like he's building up any old excuse to go back on his promise and vote against the deal. Incredibly transparent from Boles

    If the bill gets to third reading I believe at that point Bercow must vote Aye on a tie ?
    He won't be there if it is post 31st October
    He speaker at the time
    There's a rumour that he'll stay on if his country still needs him.
    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/will-john-bercow-break-his-promise-to-resign/
    Could all the deputy speakers (who are currently competing to take his job) resign if he tried to cling on? ;)
  • If anyone has the appetite for anything not Brexit-related, how does the brains trust feel about this limitation of freedom of speech?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/oct/21/drill-rapper-rico-racks-jailed-and-banned-from-rapping-certain-words?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571651361

    Obviously drug-dealing is bad and I have no problem with the prison sentence for that, but banning rappers from using particular words?

    There is no excuse for banning free speech. Ban crimes not speech.

    Oh and legalise drugs so that there are no drug dealers, but that's another story.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    Northstar said:

    Brom said:

    Mr. Brom, aye. The Pussyfooting Parliament will probably vote for whatever avoids them actually making a decision, though.

    It was always thus. Thankfully they cannot buy time forever and the mood music seems to be leaning towards the impasse ending.
    I think we may all be underestimating the appetite Parliament collectively has for this to continue indefinitely.

    I can’t see how Boris gets an election any time soon.
    If the WAIB looks like going through with the Irish Sea border intact I can see the DUP supporting a VONC if there is no other way of stopping it. They will never agree to the Irish Sea border. Never never never, as someone once said.
    As a friend put it, 'NI is to be placed in a waiting room for Irish reunification, with the door to the outside locked.'

    One hopes that the DUP's revenge comes at the final hour and too late for the Johnson to do anything.

    How many in ERG are a) Protestant and b) so Unionist that they will support the DUP against the new WA?
  • Scott_P said:

    I don't think anyone who cares if we don't leave on Hallowe'en will blame Boris, they will know exactly who is to blame.

    The ERG who refused to vote for leaving in March
    That's false.

    The ERG voted to leave in March.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605
    I assume Letwin will put his amendment to the latest MV today for a similar reason as before.

    If the MV is passed unamended, Johnson will withdraw the letter and threaten No Deal to force the WAB through by 31 Oct. Letwin won't allow that.

    Personally I'd call Johnson's bluff on No Deal and force him to apply the brakes at the last moment. But I recognise it is very high stakes and Letwin knows just how damaging No Deal would be.

    Because it would be a straight replay of Saturday, I'm fairly sure Bercow won't allow it with good reason.

  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019
    moonshine said:



    Rather than playing these games which are putting the economy and people's lives on hold, isn't it more elegant to just put this to voters in a snap election and get a quick answer?

    No, because our electoral system is total shit, and is useless at mediating public opinion. You might as well roll a D4.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    It has been fun this past 2 days seeing Conservatives trying to convince themselves and the rest of us that the motion (as amended) was not passed on Saturday, when we all saw exactly what happened in the Commons straight after the amendment was passed.

    The motion as amended was passed.

    The motion unamended was not and should be voted on today.
    Nonsense. The motion was amended before it was voted on. It was then passed.

    The reason it was not voted on unamended was because the Commons passed an amendment. Then passed the amended motion.

    The government can't unamend it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627

    If anyone has the appetite for anything not Brexit-related, how does the brains trust feel about this limitation of freedom of speech?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/oct/21/drill-rapper-rico-racks-jailed-and-banned-from-rapping-certain-words?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571651361

    Obviously drug-dealing is bad and I have no problem with the prison sentence for that, but banning rappers from using particular words?

    The judge's view will be that he needs to stop using his music to 'glorify' the serious criminal activity for which he has been convicted, but it's a very slippery slope when people are banned from saying words that aren't inciting violence or riot - the usual test for freedom of speech.

    Of course, radio stations and music services are also free to play/host his music, or not, as they wish.
  • If anyone has the appetite for anything not Brexit-related, how does the brains trust feel about this limitation of freedom of speech?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/oct/21/drill-rapper-rico-racks-jailed-and-banned-from-rapping-certain-words?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571651361

    Obviously drug-dealing is bad and I have no problem with the prison sentence for that, but banning rappers from using particular words?

    It seems way over the top, I dont understand the necessity for it, nor its practical enforceability. Would an Etonian student caught with cocaine get banned from using Eton slang? Or would they just get daddy to have a word with the local police chiefs and arrange a caution.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    Scott_P said:

    I don't think anyone who cares if we don't leave on Hallowe'en will blame Boris, they will know exactly who is to blame.

    The ERG who refused to vote for leaving in March
    That's false.

    The ERG voted to leave in March.
    Scott spreading #FakeNews ? :D
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490
    GIN1138 said:

    moonshine said:

    Does no one else find it strange how nuts the DUP have been going this week

    Well the DUP are generally quite strange and "enraged" seems to be their default position.

    That said you could well be on to something here.

    The deal is a bloody good one for NI but DUP have to play to their voters who are probably even madder than the official DUP lol!
    I think they'll go for the deal if they're given a bridge. It's the right thing to do. NI, massive bridge connecting it with the mainland, shows commitment to its future presence in the Union.
  • CatMan said:
    At least with Mays deal there would have been time for a short pause to draw breath between the exit date and the next negotiations. Even if we leave in ten days the arguments about the future relationship will need to start pretty much immediately, and on that the tory party is still very split.
    I'm not convinced Brexit will have quite the same resonance for a while as I expect the negotiations will largely take place behind close doors. It will then resurface when (if) a deal is agreed.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    The motion as amended was passed.

    The motion unamended was not and should be voted on today.

    Does not work. The amended motion withholds consent for the Deal until the WAIB passes. Thus the MV cannot now be tabled UNTIL the WAIB has been passed. Which is not today.
  • NorthstarNorthstar Posts: 140

    If anyone has the appetite for anything not Brexit-related, how does the brains trust feel about this limitation of freedom of speech?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/oct/21/drill-rapper-rico-racks-jailed-and-banned-from-rapping-certain-words?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571651361

    Obviously drug-dealing is bad and I have no problem with the prison sentence for that, but banning rappers from using particular words?

    There is no excuse for banning free speech. Ban crimes not speech.

    Oh and legalise drugs so that there are no drug dealers, but that's another story.
    Speech is cheaper to crack down on than actual crime, hence the eagerness to focus on it. Plus actual crime had been falling for quite a while over the last decade (not sure of the most recent stats) so it gives everyone in the criminal justice system something to do in between Gina Miller cases...
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    GIN1138 said:

    moonshine said:

    Does no one else find it strange how nuts the DUP have been going this week

    Well the DUP are generally quite strange and "enraged" seems to be their default position.

    That said you could well be on to something here.

    The deal is a bloody good one for NI but DUP have to play to their voters who are probably even madder than the official DUP lol!
    I think they'll go for the deal if they're given a bridge. It's the right thing to do. NI, massive bridge connecting it with the mainland, shows commitment to its future presence in the Union.
    Which end of the bridge will the customs post be located?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478

    If anyone has the appetite for anything not Brexit-related, how does the brains trust feel about this limitation of freedom of speech?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/oct/21/drill-rapper-rico-racks-jailed-and-banned-from-rapping-certain-words?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571651361

    Obviously drug-dealing is bad and I have no problem with the prison sentence for that, but banning rappers from using particular words?

    There is no excuse for banning free speech. Ban crimes not speech.

    Oh and legalise drugs so that there are no drug dealers, but that's another story.
    Mr T you and I disagree on many things, but I'm with you that we need a thorough revision of the policy re drugs in this country, with a whole lot of bans lifted. The current arrangements are insane, and, among other problems, waste police time.
  • CatMan said:
    At least with Mays deal there would have been time for a short pause to draw breath between the exit date and the next negotiations. Even if we leave in ten days the arguments about the future relationship will need to start pretty much immediately, and on that the tory party is still very split.
    I'm not convinced Brexit will have quite the same resonance for a while as I expect the negotiations will largely take place behind close doors. It will then resurface when (if) a deal is agreed.
    Sounds unlikely! But then most of politics this last few years has been unlikely. We might get a break for Christmas then straight back on it.
  • If anyone has the appetite for anything not Brexit-related, how does the brains trust feel about this limitation of freedom of speech?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/oct/21/drill-rapper-rico-racks-jailed-and-banned-from-rapping-certain-words?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571651361

    Obviously drug-dealing is bad and I have no problem with the prison sentence for that, but banning rappers from using particular words?

    Dunno about the principle, but the article has expanded my vocabulary.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    moonshine said:

    And it's all good politics because Bojo has told them he's got the numbers without them anyway.

    It's certainly possible that they're hamming up their opposition but I can't believe anybody is actually *confident* how parliament is going to vote, since it's going to be decided by a collection of marginally unhinged fringe Labour MPs and independents, and a bunch of Conservative MPs who despite their friendly demeanor must find screwing over Boris a tempting prospect, and their vote is likely to depend on how many drinks they've had when the question comes up.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    GIN1138 said:

    Northstar said:

    Brom said:

    Mr. Brom, aye. The Pussyfooting Parliament will probably vote for whatever avoids them actually making a decision, though.

    It was always thus. Thankfully they cannot buy time forever and the mood music seems to be leaning towards the impasse ending.
    I think we may all be underestimating the appetite Parliament collectively has for this to continue indefinitely.

    I can’t see how Boris gets an election any time soon.
    SNP might want an election before Alex is in court for alleged sex crimes at the end of January.

    Lib-Dems will be up for it as they expect to make gains.

    Not sure what DUP would do.

    Con + SNP + Lib-Dem might be enough for a one line bill.
    I was talking to a Lib Dem MP recently who told me that they aren't seeking an election soon. They think they will gain seats but there're worried about the Conservatives flopping over the line thanks to Corbyn's unpopularity. What they really want is Corbyn gone.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    The French Secretary of State for Europe, Amelie de Montchalin, was on the French version of Paxman this morning, and unusually they talked a lot about Brexit.

    She was taking a very tough tone with the UK, and certainly the angle on the extension request was less "look, Remainers are fighting to stay" than "this country doesn't know wtf it is doing, its dragging us all down, we are sick of it".

    They want/expect a yes no vote on deal this week. She did say extensions would be granted under conditions of either an election or a referendum. No deal on 31st was still seen as very much an option if the deal is rejected, (the idea of revoking wasn't even mentioned). Of course she's not the one who decides but given Macron's government flows entirely through him, I doubt she was speaking out of turn. If he's the biggest sticking point, and is proposing this, it seems likely we will get some sort of short technical extension with longer extensions granted upon passing of either GE or second referendum.

    Unless that tory MP finally manages to convince his friends in the Polish government to veto, as he has promised at every single extension request so far.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    It has been fun this past 2 days seeing Conservatives trying to convince themselves and the rest of us that the motion (as amended) was not passed on Saturday, when we all saw exactly what happened in the Commons straight after the amendment was passed.

    The motion as amended was passed.

    The motion unamended was not and should be voted on today.
    But that goes against the amended passed motion with holding consent until WAIB has been passed, why would he allow that. It’s plain common sense he won’t allow it.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Scott_P said:
    This is the only way to get a referendum through. You have to defeat the thing first, then all the waverers make "I don't like this but what can you do" faces and vote for one to get the thing done.
  • If anyone has the appetite for anything not Brexit-related, how does the brains trust feel about this limitation of freedom of speech?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/oct/21/drill-rapper-rico-racks-jailed-and-banned-from-rapping-certain-words?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571651361

    Obviously drug-dealing is bad and I have no problem with the prison sentence for that, but banning rappers from using particular words?

    There is no excuse for banning free speech. Ban crimes not speech.

    Oh and legalise drugs so that there are no drug dealers, but that's another story.
    Mr T you and I disagree on many things, but I'm with you that we need a thorough revision of the policy re drugs in this country, with a whole lot of bans lifted. The current arrangements are insane, and, among other problems, waste police time.
    Indeed. I don't smoke and don't take illegal drugs and wouldn't take them if they were legalised but anyone who thinks the drugs war makes any difference whatsoever is insane. If I wanted to get cocaine or cannabis I easily could.

    If it was up to me cocaine and other "Class A" drugs would be sold legally via pharmacies like Boots while cannabis would be sold like tobacco at supermarkets.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490

    GIN1138 said:

    moonshine said:

    Does no one else find it strange how nuts the DUP have been going this week

    Well the DUP are generally quite strange and "enraged" seems to be their default position.

    That said you could well be on to something here.

    The deal is a bloody good one for NI but DUP have to play to their voters who are probably even madder than the official DUP lol!
    I think they'll go for the deal if they're given a bridge. It's the right thing to do. NI, massive bridge connecting it with the mainland, shows commitment to its future presence in the Union.
    Which end of the bridge will the customs post be located?
    I am not sure, but I think whatever checks necessary would be very easy given the basic concept of a bridge. The speed and utility of the bridge would more than compensate for any inconvenience.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited October 2019
    Barnesian said:

    I assume Letwin will put his amendment to the latest MV today for a similar reason as before.
    ...

    Several people have made this point, but I don't understand it. The amendment has done its job, the letter had been sent because the Benn Act was triggered. Boris can't un-send it, nor can he do anything to frustrate the request (because of the Padfield principle). Therefore, there's no need for the same amendment to be tabled, surely?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,504

    GIN1138 said:

    moonshine said:

    Does no one else find it strange how nuts the DUP have been going this week

    Well the DUP are generally quite strange and "enraged" seems to be their default position.

    That said you could well be on to something here.

    The deal is a bloody good one for NI but DUP have to play to their voters who are probably even madder than the official DUP lol!
    I think they'll go for the deal if they're given a bridge. It's the right thing to do. NI, massive bridge connecting it with the mainland, shows commitment to its future presence in the Union.
    A bridge to nowhere? Where do you suggest that this bridge go to? Across the North Channel to Stranraer perhaps? Or maybe you favour a link to the southern tip of the Kintyre peninsula?

    I contend that you know precisely nothing about civil engineering and even less about economic geography.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478

    GIN1138 said:

    moonshine said:

    Does no one else find it strange how nuts the DUP have been going this week

    Well the DUP are generally quite strange and "enraged" seems to be their default position.

    That said you could well be on to something here.

    The deal is a bloody good one for NI but DUP have to play to their voters who are probably even madder than the official DUP lol!
    I think they'll go for the deal if they're given a bridge. It's the right thing to do. NI, massive bridge connecting it with the mainland, shows commitment to its future presence in the Union.
    Which end of the bridge will the customs post be located?
    Where will you get the guys to do the manual work if there are no Poles or Romanians? Further, are there going to be tolls on the bridge and if there are that'll be another cause for dissension.

    'Tis said that it's never difficult to differentiate between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine. It's doubly so in the case of an Ulster Prod.
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