It is saddening, what America has become, under Trump. This is not the proud warrior nation, free and brave, which stands by its allies.
Most Americans will be repelled by Trump’s behavior. He will either be impeached or he will lose badly in 2020. His Syria decision was an epochal error.
Wrong.
58% of American voters back Trump's position, they are fed up of endless wars and the US always having to take the body bags and pay the defence bills.
We would also be complete hypocrites attacking Trump having withdrawn British forces from Syria and Iraq.
You really are blinded by the dangerous and absurd Trump. What happened to the moderate remain voting conservative
Unless we are willing to send British troops to Syria we have no right lecturing Trump
Of course we can attack Trump who is dangerous to peace
No we can't, not unless we send British troops to support the Kurds
We would do well to note Trump’s willingness to abandon America’s Kurdish allies to genocide and conclude that as long as he is in the Oval Office the US is not to be trusted.
Trump is pursuing an 'America First' agenda much as Brexit was a vote for 'Britain First'.
It was not a vote to be submerged in either the EU or USA
Yes, Trump’s strategy is to allow the Turks to massacre Kurdish troops and civilians who at the US’s behest sacrificed so much to play a pivotal role in defeating ISIS, a key US strategic objective. Anyone who trusts Trump’s America is a fool.
Except in reality it isn't given tonight Syrian forces are heading to join the Kurds to fight the Turks after a Deal between the Kurds and Assad.
No real surprise as both oppose Turkey, the Kurds for obvious reasons and Assad due to Turkish support for the Syrian rebels
That is a reaction to Trump’s strategy of abandoning the Kurds to massacre.
Trump's strategy is proved correct as it shows the Kurds do not need to rely solely on US support
Thousands of Kurds have already been killed, American forces have come under fire and hundreds of ISIS prisoners have escaped. It’s been nothing short of a triumph for Trump.
The 'Stop the War coalition' is not demanding we invade Syria to support the Kurds against Turkey
But you cannot treat everyone who is objecting to the action as though they are Stop the War. But you are dismissing the validity of those objecting as though they are.
The basic point is that one could have supported or opposed the interventions of a decade ago, or even of getting involved in Syria in the first place, and not be bound to a particular view of whether Trump's action was the right move in these circumstances, nor be a hypocrite.
In the same way you did not vote Leave but now passionately believe the Leave vote must be delivered, someone could have opposed intervention in Syria but feel that, having done so, the present action is not the right course to take. Like you, they are not honour bound to support their previous position, if they consider the facts and circumstances mean another choice must be made. Whether that call is right or not is another matter, but it is not automatically hypocritcal.
She had to act on the information passed in real time. I think you minimise the reality of the situation and the decision to be made.
You're a policeman, I believe, or were.
So let me ask you this.
How often, in your experience, do police officers shoot a man under restraint and then repeatedly lie about what happened? (Which is effectively the ruling as to the course of events by the jury at the inquest.)
Because if the answer is 'frequently,' as a country we have a big problem.
And if the answer is, 'that shouldn't happen,' then I am afraid all excuses are rendered meaningless.
Having been in London myself that day and remembering how tense it was I can forgive a lapse of judgement at the time. What bothers me is the very clear implication there was massive dishonesty on the part of the police across a number of different teams to cover up very serious avoidable mistakes that had lethal consequences, with her the common factor among them.
At the very least, I would suggest that shows she is not a strong or effective leader.
Look at her response on Beech. When the senior officer said his allegations were “true” she said that she thought at the time that he shouldn’t have said that, not what he meant, blah, blah. But then did the square root of fuck all about it. And as it turned out he did mean it. He intended to say this. He didn’t mis-speak because that’s the training the police are given. And Cressida Dick would have known that.
So even in relation to this she was being utterly disingenuous - or lying, in other words.
Simply. Not. Good. Enough.
It goes back to Blair’s* politicisation of the police force
* Ian Blair
Only a small part of the answer. See the various Irish miscarriages of justice before then.
Until now I thought trump would pull off a victory next year, the economy would be bouncing back from a slowdown and overall he would be seen as "not as bad as the Dems say". After the Syria withdrawal I think he's not going to win, the Dems have the perfect stick to beat him with, stabbing the vanquishers of ISIS in the back will have gone down very, very badly with his base.
I think he's done.
58% of US voters back Trump's policy, including 69% of Republicans
They won't given Trump's tough immigration policy and his refusal unlike the last administration to try and topple Assad when Assad was the best bulwark against ISIS in Syria
Until now I thought trump would pull off a victory next year, the economy would be bouncing back from a slowdown and overall he would be seen as "not as bad as the Dems say". After the Syria withdrawal I think he's not going to win, the Dems have the perfect stick to beat him with, stabbing the vanquishers of ISIS in the back will have gone down very, very badly with his base.
I think he's done.
58% of US voters back Trump's policy, including 69% of Republicans
Really - you've already seen the post invasion polling ?
As for the “endless wars”, I posted this below (which like most of the inconvenient rebuttals of you nonsense, you have ignored):
“Putting an end to endless war doesn't mean ending American engagement around the world,“ “Often, it means making sure we do our part to stabilize or help keep the peace, so that full-blown conflicts don't break out. Look at what's happened here. This isn't even a strategy or a policy. It is the president systematically destroying American alliances and American values. And that makes America worse off.“
The main story on the BBC is that US forces are in retreat in the face of advancing Turkish forces.
That would be Turkey, NATO ally.
Allegedly Syria has agreed to assist the Kurds fight off Turkey.
Which I assume means Russia is on board
This is a complete disaster . Trumps action is one of the worst in recent history , utterly despicable and a shameful betrayal of the Kurds who have been instrumental in defeating ISIS.
GOP: hang your heads in utter shame.
I’ve been ranting about this for days. It might well be the end of Trump, even as he survives everything else.
He has brought shame on the American military, and dishonored America itself, his patriotic base will hate this.
They won't , they don't want any more body bags of American servicemen coming from the Middle East and given the British have withdrawn forces from Iraq and Syria we can hardly criticise
As an aside, if an ISIS member who had previously been help prisoner by the Kurds commits a terrorist attack on US soil, how popular do you think President Trump's policy will be then?
Given Trump's extremely tough immigration policy and ban on migrants and tourists to the US from many Middle Eastern countries that is unlikely
Ummm.
Do you think terrorists typically emigrate to the countries they plan on attacking?
Under Trump's policy they cannot even go there to study or as tourists let alone to migrate
It is saddening, what America has become, under Trump. This is not the proud warrior nation, free and brave, which stands by its allies.
Most Americans will be repelled by Trump’s behavior. He will either be impeached or he will lose badly in 2020. His Syria decision was an epochal error.
Wrong.
58% of American voters back Trump's position, they are fed up of endless wars and the US always having to take the body bags and pay the defence bills.
Drugs policy is reserved to Westminster. It is entirely typical of the SNP to have liberal policies on the things they don't control but to have authoritarian policies on the things they do.
The Tory despots are out already, they will follow |SNP as usual. Their pol;icy is really working well , why change.
The 'Stop the War coalition' is not demanding we invade Syria to support the Kurds against Turkey
But you cannot treat everyone who is objecting to the action as though they are Stop the War. But you are dismissing the validity of those objecting as though they are.
The basic point is that one could have supported or opposed the interventions of a decade ago, or even of getting involved in Syria in the first place, and not be bound to a particular view of whether Trump's action was the right move in these circumstances, nor be a hypocrite.
In the same way you did not vote Leave but now passionately believe the Leave vote must be delivered, someone could have opposed intervention in Syria but feel that, having done so, the present action is not the right course to take. Like you, they are not honour bound to support their previous position, if they consider the facts and circumstances mean another choice must be made. Whether that call is right or not is another matter, but it is not automatically hypocritcal.
If you opposed the Iraq War and opposed action against Assad you are a hypocrite if you support US intervention now
Latest opinion poll from Spain ahead of next month’s election. Yet another hung Parliament beckons, but note the collapse of the Ciudadanos vote. Just a few months ago C’s was looking like it could become Spain’s second party, but a disastrous lurch to the right has brought it to the verge of extinction. It’s truly extraordinary. https://twitter.com/electograph/status/1183466282684948480?s=21
Looks like Catalan nationalists may hold the balance of power which could mean an Independence referendum
Didn't they hold the balance of power last time too? And their withdrawing of support is why we have an election?
No, there was no agreement after the last election, which is why there’s a new one. It’s Spain’s fourth in four years! After this one, I suspect the remaining C’s MPs will abstain on a Sánchez presidency rather than vote against it, along with most of the regional parties. That will confirm PSOE in power, but it will be a fragile grip unless they can do a deal with Podemos.
Any chance of going 5 in 5? Clearly they cannot get enough elections in Spain.
I can’t see C’s wanting another election. I doubt they’ll vote against Sanchez’s inauguration this time. That should settle things down for a couple of years.
It is saddening, what America has become, under Trump. This is not the proud warrior nation, free and brave, which stands by its allies.
Most Americans will be repelled by Trump’s behavior. He will either be impeached or he will lose badly in 2020. His Syria decision was an epochal error.
Wrong.
58% of American voters back Trump's position, they are fed up of endless wars and the US always having to take the body bags and pay the defence bills.
We would also be complete hypocrites attacking Trump having withdrawn British forces from Syria and Iraq.
You really are blinded by the dangerous and absurd Trump. What happened to the moderate remain voting conservative
Unless we are willing to send British troops to Syria we have no right lecturing Trump
Of course we can attack Trump who is dangerous to peace
No we can't, not unless we send British troops to support the Kurds
We would do well to note Trump’s willingness to abandon America’s Kurdish allies to genocide and conclude that as long as he is in the Oval Office the US is not to be trusted.
Trump is pursuing an 'America First' agenda much as Brexit was a vote for 'Britain First'.
It was not a vote to be submerged in either the EU or USA
Yes, Trump’s strategy is to allow the Turks to massacre Kurdish troops and civilians who at the US’s behest sacrificed so much to play a pivotal role in defeating ISIS, a key US strategic objective. Anyone who trusts Trump’s America is a fool.
Except in reality it isn't given tonight Syrian forces are heading to join the Kurds to fight the Turks after a Deal between the Kurds and Assad.
No real surprise as both oppose Turkey, the Kurds for obvious reasons and Assad due to Turkish support for the Syrian rebels.
That’s a lot of hand waving away the betrayal of an ally, and killings and atrocities which are already happening. Northern Syria was a safe haven from both the Syrian regime and from Turkish incursion. By agreeing to allow a full scale invasion, Trump has forced the Kurds to choose between their enemies; it will not be a cost free choice.
LOL, will Trump end up having to send thousands of troops to try and recover his disaster.
Until now I thought trump would pull off a victory next year, the economy would be bouncing back from a slowdown and overall he would be seen as "not as bad as the Dems say". After the Syria withdrawal I think he's not going to win, the Dems have the perfect stick to beat him with, stabbing the vanquishers of ISIS in the back will have gone down very, very badly with his base.
I think he's done.
58% of US voters back Trump's policy, including 69% of Republicans
Really - you've already seen the post invasion polling ?
As for the “endless wars”, I posted this below (which like most of the inconvenient rebuttals of you nonsense, you have ignored):
“Putting an end to endless war doesn't mean ending American engagement around the world,“ “Often, it means making sure we do our part to stabilize or help keep the peace, so that full-blown conflicts don't break out. Look at what's happened here. This isn't even a strategy or a policy. It is the president systematically destroying American alliances and American values. And that makes America worse off.“
And where are the British forces supporting the Kurds then if you are so concerned? Answer nowhere
It is saddening, what America has become, under Trump. This is not the proud warrior nation, free and brave, which stands by its allies.
Most Americans will be repelled by Trump’s behavior. He will either be impeached or he will lose badly in 2020. His Syria decision was an epochal error.
Wrong.
58% of American voters back Trump's position, they are fed up of endless wars and the US always having to take the body bags and pay the defence bills.
The 'Stop the War coalition' is not demanding we invade Syria to support the Kurds against Turkey
But you cannot treat everyone who is objecting to the action as though they are Stop the War. But you are dismissing the validity of those objecting as though they are.
The basic point is that one could have supported or opposed the interventions of a decade ago, or even of getting involved in Syria in the first place, and not be bound to a particular view of whether Trump's action was the right move in these circumstances, nor be a hypocrite.
In the same way you did not vote Leave but now passionately believe the Leave vote must be delivered, someone could have opposed intervention in Syria but feel that, having done so, the present action is not the right course to take. Like you, they are not honour bound to support their previous position, if they consider the facts and circumstances mean another choice must be made. Whether that call is right or not is another matter, but it is not automatically hypocritcal.
If you opposed the Iraq War and opposed action against Assad you are a hypocrite if you support US intervention now
So despite your own direct experience of not supporting an action, and then switching 180 degrees and supporting it faithfully and passionately afterwards because the situation is different now, you cannot conceive of someone else being permitted to change their view based on the changed situation? That the first action having been taken, even though they did not want it, materially changes their stance later?
Final quesiton then - why are you so special that you are allowed to do this, but others are not?
Drugs policy is reserved to Westminster. It is entirely typical of the SNP to have liberal policies on the things they don't control but to have authoritarian policies on the things they do.
The Tory despots are out already, they will follow |SNP as usual. Their pol;icy is really working well , why change.
It is entirely typical of the LDs to have liberal policies when they're not in power but to enthusiastically adopt Tory policies when they get their sweaty little paws on a minor lever of power.
It is saddening, what America has become, under Trump. This is not the proud warrior nation, free and brave, which stands by its allies.
Most Americans will be repelled by Trump’s behavior. He will either be impeached or he will lose badly in 2020. His Syria decision was an epochal error.
Wrong.
58% of American voters back Trump's position, they are fed up of endless wars and the US always having to take the body bags and pay the defence bills.
We would also be complete hypocrites attacking Trump having withdrawn British forces from Syria and Iraq.
You really are blinded by the dangerous and absurd Trump. What happened to the moderate remain voting conservative
Unless we are willing to send British troops to Syria we have no right lecturing Trump
Of course we can attack Trump who is dangerous to peace
No we can't, not unless we send British troops to support the Kurds
We would do well to note Trump’s willingness to abandon America’s Kurdish allies to genocide and conclude that as long as he is in the Oval Office the US is not to be trusted.
Trump is pursuing an 'America First' agenda much as Brexit was a vote for 'Britain First'.
It was not a vote to be submerged in either the EU or USA
Yes, Trump’s strategy is to allow the Turks to massacre Kurdish
Except in reality it isn't given tonight Syrian forces are heading to join the Kurds to fight the Turks after a Deal between the Kurds and Assad.
No real surprise as both oppose Turkey, the Kurds for obvious reasons and Assad due to Turkish support for the Syrian rebels.
That’s a lot of hand waving away the betrayal of an ally, and killings and atrocities which are already happening. Northern Syria was a safe haven from both the Syrian regime and from Turkish incursion. By agreeing to allow a full scale invasion, Trump has forced the Kurds to choose between their enemies; it will not be a cost free choice.
LOL, will Trump end up having to send thousands of troops to try and recover his disaster.
He won't, the Syrian Army is already in Kurdistan tonight supporting the Kurds, leave them to it
The 'Stop the War coalition' is not demanding we invade Syria to support the Kurds against Turkey
But you cannot treat everyone who is objecting to the action as though they are Stop the War. But you are dismissing the validity of those objecting as though they are.
The basic point is that one could have supported or opposed the interventions of a decade ago, or even of getting involved in Syria in the first place, and not be bound to a particular view of whether Trump's action was the right move in these circumstances, nor be a hypocrite.
In the same way you did not vote Leave but now passionately believe the Leave vote must be delivered, someone could have opposed intervention in Syria but feel that, having done so, the present action is not the right course to take. Like you, they are not honour bound to support their previous position, if they consider the facts and circumstances mean another choice must be made. Whether that call is right or not is another matter, but it is not automatically hypocritcal.
If you opposed the Iraq War and opposed action against Assad you are a hypocrite if you support US intervention now
There was a nascent state of relative peace in northern Syria. Your man just waved the flag for a full blown war.
It is saddening, what America has become, under Trump. This is not the proud warrior nation, free and brave, which stands by its allies.
Most Americans will be repelled by Trump’s behavior. He will either be impeached or he will lose badly in 2020. His Syria decision was an epochal error.
Wrong.
58% of American voters back Trump's position, they are fed up of endless wars and the US always having to take the body bags and pay the defence bills.
It is saddening, what America has become, under Trump. This is not the proud warrior nation, free and brave, which stands by its allies.
Most Americans will be repelled by Trump’s behavior. He will either be impeached or he will lose badly in 2020. His Syria decision was an epochal error.
Wrong.
58% of American voters back Trump's position, they are fed up of endless wars and the US always having to take the body bags and pay the defence bills.
We would also be complete hypocrites attacking Trump having withdrawn British forces from Syria and Iraq.
You really are blinded by the dangerous and absurd Trump. What happened to the moderate remain voting conservative
Unless we are willing to send British troops to Syria we have no right lecturing Trump
Of course we can attack Trump who is dangerous to peace
No we can't, not unless we send British troops to support the Kurds
We would do well to note Trump’s willingness to abandon America’s Kurdish allies to genocide and conclude that as long as he is in the Oval Office the US is not to be trusted.
Trump is pursuing an 'America First' agenda much as Brexit was a vote for 'Britain First'.
It was not a vote to be submerged in either the EU or USA
Yes, Tru
Except in reality it isn't given tonight Syrian forces are heading to join the Kurds to fight the Turks after a Deal between the Kurds and Assad.
No real surprise as both oppose Turkey, the Kurds for obvious reasons and Assad due to Turkish support for the Syrian rebels.
That’s a lot of hand waving away the betrayal of an ally, and killings and atrocities which are already happening. Northern Syria was a safe haven from both the Syrian regime and from Turkish incursion. By agreeing to allow a full scale invasion, Trump has forced the Kurds to choose between their enemies; it will not be a cost free choice.
LOL, will Trump end up having to send thousands of troops to try and recover his disaster.
Well so long as they are not sent with the aim of regime change it won't be a neocon agenda and therefore ok.
The 'Stop the War coalition' is not demanding we invade Syria to support the Kurds against Turkey
But you cannot treat everyone who is objecting to the action as though they are Stop the War. But you are dismissing the validity of those objecting as though they are.
The basic point is that one could have supported or opposed the interventions of a decade ago, or even of getting involved in Syria in the first place, and not be bound to a particular view of whether Trump's action was the right move in these circumstances, nor be a hypocrite.
In the same way you did not vote Leave but now passionately believe the Leave vote must be delivered, someone could have opposed intervention in Syria but feel that, having done so, the present action is not the right course to take. Like you, they are not honour bound to support their previous position, if they consider the facts and circumstances mean another choice must be made. Whether that call is right or not is another matter, but it is not automatically hypocritcal.
If you opposed the Iraq War and opposed action against Assad you are a hypocrite if you support US intervention now
There was a nascent state of relative peace in northern Syria. Your man just waved the flag for a full blown war.
No he just withdrew US forces from Syria, if Turkey decides to attack Kurdistan having already backed Syrian rebels to destabilise the country with the support of previous US administrations and the Kurds then do a Deal with Assad that is up to them.
Of course you do. As a disciple you cannot see any wrong in the man
Fortunately, Americans can and he will be gone in 2020
I heartily disagree with HYUFD on many things, but I'm wary of being so confident that he will be gone in 2020, even with everything that has happened. The partisanship of the USA appears to be truly remarkable - even with our own escalation of it, we don't appear to be close to their levels, and in that situation the wrong democrat and a crap campaign, well, it doesn't seem like a victory can be ruled out.
It is saddening, what America has become, under Trump. This is not the proud warrior nation, free and brave, which stands by its allies.
Most Americans will be repelled by Trump’s behavior. He will either be impeached or he will lose badly in 2020. His Syria decision was an epochal error.
Wrong.
58% of American voters back Trump's position, they are fed up of endless wars and the US always having to take the body bags and pay the defence bills.
@HYUFD I'm interested on your view on one thing in particular. Do you think Donald Trump works hard? I've heard it said he does, but then I've heard it said he spends a lot of time playing golf and watching TV. Not sure where the truth lies. Any ideas?
We were in New York at the time of the UN meetings three weeks ago and Trump's presence caused mayhem. The whole of 5th Avenue was closed together with most of the east side making the west side one long traffic jam
The anger from the Americans we encountered was palpable and in some cases utter hatred for him.
He will be gone next year but what a mess he will leave behind
The 'Stop the War coalition' is not demanding we invade Syria to support the Kurds against Turkey
But you cannot treat everyone who is objecting to the action as though they are Stop the War. But you are dismissing the validity of those objecting as though they are.
The basic point is that one could have supported or opposed the interventions of a decade ago, or even of getting involved in Syria in the first place, and not be bound to a particular view of whether Trump's action was the right move in these circumstances, nor be a hypocrite.
In the same way you did not vote Leave but now passionately believe the Leave vote must be delivered, someone could have opposed intervention in Syria but feel that, having done so, the present action is not the right course to take. Like you, they are not honour bound to support their previous position, if they consider the facts and circumstances mean another choice must be made. Whether that call is right or not is another matter, but it is not automatically hypocritcal.
If you opposed the Iraq War and opposed action against Assad you are a hypocrite if you support US intervention now
There was a nascent state of relative peace in northern Syria. Your man just waved the flag for a full blown war.
No he just withdrew US forces from Syria, if Turkey decides to attack Kurdistan having already backed Syrian rebels to destabilise the country with the support of previous US administrations and the Kurds then do a Deal with Assad that is up to them.
Are you a Russian agent of influence like your man in the White House ?
We were in New York at the time of the UN meetings three weeks ago and Trump's presence caused mayhem. The whole of 5th Avenue was closed together with most of the east side making the west side one long traffic jam
The anger from the Americans we encountered was palpable and in some cases utter hatred for him.
He will be gone next year but what a mess he will leave behind
Not sure New York is fertile territory for Trump in the first place.
58% of US voters back Trump's statement 'It is time for America to withdraw from endless wars, many of them tribal' and 'only fight where it is to our benefit' just 20% disagree.
Except they weren’t fighting a war in northern Syria, so much as keeping the peace. US forces have taken a handful of casualties in the years they have been there.
Trump has greenlighted the Turkish invasion of northern Syria, enabled Turkish atrocities against Kurdish civilians, cemented Russian influence in the Eastern Mediterranean, and cast doubt in every alliance the US has. All without consulting either the military of State Department beforehand.
He has also made the rise of IS again more likely. Trump’s America is acting as a facilitator of terrorism - and the war crimes being committed by the Turks.
The 'Stop the War coalition' is not demanding we invade Syria to support the Kurds against Turkey
But you cannot treat everyone who is objecting to the action as though they are Stop the War. But you are dismissing the validity of those objecting as though they are.
The basic point is that one could have supported or opposed the interventions of a decade ago, or even of getting involved in Syria in the first place, and not be bound to a particular view of whether Trump's action was the right move in these circumstances, nor be a hypocrite.
In the same way you did not vote Leave but now passionately believe the Leave vote must be delivered, someone could have opposed intervention in Syria but feel that, having done so, the present action is not the right course to take. Like you, they are not honour bound to support their previous position, if they consider the facts and circumstances mean another choice must be made. Whether that call is right or not is another matter, but it is not automatically hypocritcal.
If you opposed the Iraq War and opposed action against Assad you are a hypocrite if you support US intervention now
There was a nascent state of relative peace in northern Syria. Your man just waved the flag for a full blown war.
No he just withdrew US forces from Syria, if Turkey decides to attack Kurdistan having already backed Syrian rebels to destabilise the country with the support of previous US administrations and the Kurds then do a Deal with Assad that is up to them.
Are you a Russian agent of influence like your man in the White House ?
If he was he'd have been waving the Brexit flag in 2016. HYUFD is more fanboi than Bolshoi.
...I haven't pushed the point in the discussions today, but I'm intrigued as to the distinction between those countries whose passport holders may vote here and those that may not. I'm not sure I understand how anyone can justify the difference, apart from the case of Ireland because of the GFA....
The United Kingdom is a medieval kingdom with a Westphalian sovereign state grafted on top of it. So we have all the attributes of a modern state: defined borders, an executive overseen by the legislature, etc. But the workings are still those of a Middle Ages court, with a King, a Privy Council, the British Army (*not* the Army of the United Kingdom!) , Royal Navy, Civil Service and so on.
So when the British Realm expanded past the borders of Great Britain and Ireland and kept going to become an Empire, the people living under it were all British subjects, and when democracy was grafted onto it those subjects attained the right to vote for the British Parliament.
As the reach of the realm contracted back to these islands, the populations of the former colonies still loyal to the Crown retained that right. That right has been modified or withdrawn by the various Nationality Acts, but in many cases it is still true and so those populations may still hold it, even in the case of countries such as Ireland that now have their own Head of State.
Think of it as a computer with a still-open backdoor due to the fact that the UK is still running Empire legacy code and hasn't been rebooted with a new operating system, just had the old interface tarted up to look posh.
The main story on the BBC is that US forces are in retreat in the face of advancing Turkish forces.
That would be Turkey, NATO ally.
Allegedly Syria has agreed to assist the Kurds fight off Turkey.
Which I assume means Russia is on board
This is a complete disaster . Trumps action is one of the worst in recent history , utterly despicable and a shameful betrayal of the Kurds who have been instrumental in defeating ISIS.
GOP: hang your heads in utter shame.
I’ve been ranting about this for days. It might well be the end of Trump, even as he survives everything else.
He has brought shame on the American military, and dishonored America itself, his patriotic base will hate this.
They won't , they don't want any more body bags of American servicemen coming from the Middle East and given the British have withdrawn forces from Iraq and Syria we can hardly criticise
As an aside, if an ISIS member who had previously been help prisoner by the Kurds commits a terrorist attack on US soil, how popular do you think President Trump's policy will be then?
Given Trump's extremely tough immigration policy and ban on migrants and tourists to the US from many Middle Eastern countries that is unlikely
Ummm.
Do you think terrorists typically emigrate to the countries they plan on attacking?
Under Trump's policy they cannot even go there to study or as tourists let alone to migrate
Plenty of US targets outside the US. And plenty of ways of making it clear that any such attacks are a result of his actions in giving the green light to the Turks to invade.
...I haven't pushed the point in the discussions today, but I'm intrigued as to the distinction between those countries whose passport holders may vote here and those that may not. I'm not sure I understand how anyone can justify the difference, apart from the case of Ireland because of the GFA....
The United Kingdom is a medieval kingdom with a Westphalian sovereign state grafted on top of it. So we have all the attributes of a modern state: defined borders, an executive overseen by the legislature, etc. But the workings are still those of a Middle Ages court, with a King, a Privy Council, the British Army (*not* the Army of the United Kingdom!) , Royal Navy, Civil Service and so on.
So when the British Realm expanded past the borders of Great Britain and Ireland and kept going to become an Empire, the people living under it were all British subjects, and when democracy was grafted onto it those subjects attained the right to vote for the British Parliament.
As the reach of the realm contracted back to these islands, the populations of the former colonies still loyal to the Crown retained that right. That right has been modified or withdrawn by the various Nationality Acts, but in many cases it is still true and so those populations may still hold it, even in the case of countries such as Ireland that now have their own Head of State.
Think of it as a computer with a still-open backdoor due to the fact that the UK is still running Empire legacy code and hasn't been rebooted with a new operating system, just had the old interface tarted up to look posh.
I'll file that under explanation rather than justification, but that's not to take anything away from it! What a wonderful theory. I have a feeling you'd enjoy The Shield of Achilles: War Peace and Course of History by Philip Bobbitt if you haven't already read it.
We were in New York at the time of the UN meetings three weeks ago and Trump's presence caused mayhem. The whole of 5th Avenue was closed together with most of the east side making the west side one long traffic jam
The anger from the Americans we encountered was palpable and in some cases utter hatred for him.
He will be gone next year but what a mess he will leave behind
Journalists found the same atmosphere in New York City the day after Trump won the 2016 election IIRC. 79% in the city voted for Clinton.
58% of US voters back Trump's statement 'It is time for America to withdraw from endless wars, many of them tribal' and 'only fight where it is to our benefit' just 20% disagree.
Except they weren’t fighting a war in northern Syria, so much as keeping the peace. US forces have taken a handful of casualties in the years they have been there.
Trump has greenlighted the Turkish invasion of northern Syria, enabled Turkish atrocities against Kurdish civilians, cemented Russian influence in the Eastern Mediterranean, and cast doubt in every alliance the US has. All without consulting either the military of State Department beforehand.
He has also made the rise of IS again more likely. Trump’s America is acting as a facilitator of terrorism - and the war crimes being committed by the Turks.
He has also done much to make it more likely that one of the achievements of the 20th Century - the virtual ending of wars of territorial conquest - was very much a temporary one.
The 'Stop the War coalition' is not demanding we invade Syria to support the Kurds against Turkey
But you cannot treat everyone who is objecting to the action as though they are Stop the War. But you are dismissing the validity of those objecting as though they are.
The basic point is that one could have supported or opposed the interventions of a decade ago, or even of getting involved in Syria in the first place, and not be bound to a particular view of whether Trump's action was the right move in these circumstances, nor be a hypocrite.
In the same way you did not vote Leave but now passionately believe the Leave vote must be delivered, someone could have opposed intervention in Syria but feel that, having done so, the present action is not the right course to take. Like you, they are not honour bound to support their previous position, if they consider the facts and circumstances mean another choice must be made. Whether that call is right or not is another matter, but it is not automatically hypocritcal.
If you opposed the Iraq War and opposed action against Assad you are a hypocrite if you support US intervention now
There was a nascent state of relative peace in northern Syria. Your man just waved the flag for a full blown war.
No he just withdrew US forces from Syria, if Turkey decides to attack Kurdistan having already backed Syrian rebels to destabilise the country with the support of previous US administrations and the Kurds then do a Deal with Assad that is up to them.
Are you a Russian agent of influence like your man in the White House ?
If he was he'd have been waving the Brexit flag in 2016. HYUFD is more fanboi than Bolshoi.
...I haven't pushed the point in the discussions today, but I'm intrigued as to the distinction between those countries whose passport holders may vote here and those that may not. I'm not sure I understand how anyone can justify the difference, apart from the case of Ireland because of the GFA....
The United Kingdom is a medieval kingdom with a Westphalian sovereign state grafted on top of it. So we have all the attributes of a modern state: defined borders, an executive overseen by the legislature, etc. But the workings are still those of a Middle Ages court, with a King, a Privy Council, the British Army (*not* the Army of the United Kingdom!) , Royal Navy, Civil Service and so on.
So when the British Realm expanded past the borders of Great Britain and Ireland and kept going to become an Empire, the people living under it were all British subjects, and when democracy was grafted onto it those subjects attained the right to vote for the British Parliament.
As the reach of the realm contracted back to these islands, the populations of the former colonies still loyal to the Crown retained that right. That right has been modified or withdrawn by the various Nationality Acts, but in many cases it is still true and so those populations may still hold it, even in the case of countries such as Ireland that now have their own Head of State.
Think of it as a computer with a still-open backdoor due to the fact that the UK is still running Empire legacy code and hasn't been rebooted with a new operating system, just had the old interface tarted up to look posh.
I'll file that under explanation rather than justification, but that's not to take anything away from it! What a wonderful theory. I have a feeling you'd enjoy The Shield of Achilles: War Peace and Course of History by Philip Bobbitt if you haven't already read it.
58% of US voters back Trump's statement 'It is time for America to withdraw from endless wars, many of them tribal' and 'only fight where it is to our benefit' just 20% disagree.
Except they weren’t fighting a war in northern Syria, so much as keeping the peace. US forces have taken a handful of casualties in the years they have been there.
Trump has greenlighted the Turkish invasion of northern Syria, enabled Turkish atrocities against Kurdish civilians, cemented Russian influence in the Eastern Mediterranean, and cast doubt in every alliance the US has. All without consulting either the military of State Department beforehand.
He has also made the rise of IS again more likely. Trump’s America is acting as a facilitator of terrorism - and the war crimes being committed by the Turks.
He has also done much to make it more likely that one of the achievements of the 20th Century - the virtual ending of wars of territorial conquest - was very much a temporary one.
I despise Trump. Under him the US simply cannot be trusted.
What a stupid stupid time to be alienating ourselves from our European neighbours.
“We can mediate. I hope we can mediate,” Trump told reporters at the White House.
His administration has also sought to change the narrative. A senior State Department official told reporters on a background call this past week that “we gave them a very clear red light,” while Esper told reporters Friday that “nobody greenlighted this operation” and insisted that “we have not abandoned the Kurds.”....
58% of US voters back Trump's statement 'It is time for America to withdraw from endless wars, many of them tribal' and 'only fight where it is to our benefit' just 20% disagree.
Except they weren’t fighting a war in northern Syria, so much as keeping the peace. US forces have taken a handful of casualties in the years they have been there.
Trump has greenlighted the Turkish invasion of northern Syria, enabled Turkish atrocities against Kurdish civilians, cemented Russian influence in the Eastern Mediterranean, and cast doubt in every alliance the US has. All without consulting either the military of State Department beforehand.
He has also made the rise of IS again more likely. Trump’s America is acting as a facilitator of terrorism - and the war crimes being committed by the Turks.
No that would be providing further aid to rebels trying to topple Assad, now ISIS has been defeated Trump is simply leaving Syria to Assad and the Kurds
The 'Stop the War coalition' is not demanding we invade Syria to support the Kurds against Turkey
But you cannot treat everyone who is objecting to the action as though they are Stop the War. But you are dismissing the validity of those objecting as though they are.
The basic point is that one could have supported or opposed the interventions of a decade ago, or even of getting involved in Syria in the first place, and not be bound to a particular view of whether Trump's action was the right move in these circumstances, nor be a hypocrite.
In the same way you did not vote Leave but now passionately believe the Leave vote must be delivered, someone could have opposed intervention in Syria but feel that, having done so, the present action is not the right course to take. Like you, they are not honour bound to support their previous position, if they consider the facts and circumstances mean another choice must be made. Whether that call is right or not is another matter, but it is not automatically hypocritcal.
If you opposed the Iraq War and opposed action against Assad you are a hypocrite if you support US intervention now
There was a nascent state of relative peace in northern Syria. Your man just waved the flag for a full blown war.
No he just withdrew US forces from Syria, if Turkey decides to attack Kurdistan having already backed Syrian rebels to destabilise the country with the support of previous US administrations and the Kurds then do a Deal with Assad that is up to them.
Are you a Russian agent of influence like your man in the White House ?
If he was he'd have been waving the Brexit flag in 2016. HYUFD is more fanboi than Bolshoi.
58% of US voters back Trump's statement 'It is time for America to withdraw from endless wars, many of them tribal' and 'only fight where it is to our benefit' just 20% disagree.
Except they weren’t fighting a war in northern Syria, so much as keeping the peace. US forces have taken a handful of casualties in the years they have been there.
Trump has greenlighted the Turkish invasion of northern Syria, enabled Turkish atrocities against Kurdish civilians, cemented Russian influence in the Eastern Mediterranean, and cast doubt in every alliance the US has. All without consulting either the military of State Department beforehand.
He has also made the rise of IS again more likely. Trump’s America is acting as a facilitator of terrorism - and the war crimes being committed by the Turks.
No that would be providing further aid to rebels trying to topple Assad, now ISIS has been defeated Trump is simply leaving Syria to Assad and the Kurds
You are utterly naive if you think that this hasn’t provided the perfect opportunity for IS to regroup and mutate.
58% of US voters back Trump's statement 'It is time for America to withdraw from endless wars, many of them tribal' and 'only fight where it is to our benefit' just 20% disagree.
Except they weren’t fighting a war in northern Syria, so much as keeping the peace. US forces have taken a handful of casualties in the years they have been there.
Trump has greenlighted the Turkish invasion of northern Syria, enabled Turkish atrocities against Kurdish civilians, cemented Russian influence in the Eastern Mediterranean, and cast doubt in every alliance the US has. All without consulting either the military of State Department beforehand.
He has also made the rise of IS again more likely. Trump’s America is acting as a facilitator of terrorism - and the war crimes being committed by the Turks.
No that would be providing further aid to rebels trying to topple Assad, now ISIS has been defeated Trump is simply leaving Syria to Assad and the Kurds
You are utterly naive if you think that this hasn’t provided the perfect opportunity for IS to regroup and mutate.
You were presumably advocating aid to Syrian rebels to fight Assad which led to the growth of ISIS in the first place. Your sanctimoniousness stinks.
Now ISIS have been beaten Trump is simply refusing to keep US forces in Syria anymore, Assad has control of most of Syria again having beaten back the rebels and if the Kurds go to him for protection so be it.
Now ISIS have been beaten Trump is simply refusing to keep US forces in Syria anymore, Assad has control of most of Syria again having beaten back the rebels and if the Kurds go to him for protection so be it.
ISIS is not like Germany. It is a bunch of fanatical Islamic terrorists. They don't stop being fundemantalist crazies just because there is no state to call ISIS.
On the contrary, they will look for ways to strike at the corrupt, decadent West.
Thousands of ISIS prisoners will now fan out across the world. They will contact friendly Mosques in the UK and the US. Money will flow. As will the occasional document from someone who looks broadly similar. According to the New York Times, a Turkish passport with a US tourist visa can be bought on the Internet for less than $400.
It's one thing to say "we're not going to support the Kurds anymore". That's well within the US's right, even if it might be foolish for the US to just dump its allies without notice. It's another to allow thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of hardened Islamic terrorists to go free.
Do people think that the use of a Queen's Speech as a pre-election party political broadcast is an innovation that is likely to be repeated by future governments?
In theory, could Boris preempt the Benn Act by requesting a shorter extension this week before sending the letter the law requires him to do?
But the first request will be taken in context with the Benn Act. The EU and the 27 Governments know what has gone on in the HoC just as much as we do.
BBC News reports the Kurds have agreed an alliance with the Syrian Government against the Turks and Syrian government forces are now heading for Northern Syria
Your man Trump is a disaster of untold dimensions
Did Trump invade Iraq? No, he opposed the war.
Did Trump back rebel forces against Assad in Syria? No.
Trump is just doing what the left wanted the USA to do a decade ago and withdrawing US troops from the Middle East
And do you ever stop to even consider if that was a good thing to do in this situation or not? Rather than a political game about who said what when about a general position about intervention?
Obviously matters can be very complicated, and its why I am genuinely curious what policy benefits Trump expected for the United States through his action, and if he is happy with the outcome. Clearly I do not like Trump, but I am trying to be objective and to understand what he hoped to gain from this. If it was a cold, even brutal decision but in a ruthless way a practical benefit to his nation I can understand that, even if I do not approve of that decision. But I would like to understand it, and not see the question avoided because of either like or dislike of the man.
But to think the matter can just be covered by consideration of comments made a decade ago, even though repeated since, as if that absolves any need to reflect any further? Not for the first time I struggle to even comprehend why that is a defence.
Comments
The basic point is that one could have supported or opposed the interventions of a decade ago, or even of getting involved in Syria in the first place, and not be bound to a particular view of whether Trump's action was the right move in these circumstances, nor be a hypocrite.
In the same way you did not vote Leave but now passionately believe the Leave vote must be delivered, someone could have opposed intervention in Syria but feel that, having done so, the present action is not the right course to take. Like you, they are not honour bound to support their previous position, if they consider the facts and circumstances mean another choice must be made. Whether that call is right or not is another matter, but it is not automatically hypocritcal.
As for the “endless wars”, I posted this below (which like most of the inconvenient rebuttals of you nonsense, you have ignored):
“Putting an end to endless war doesn't mean ending American engagement around the world,“
“Often, it means making sure we do our part to stabilize or help keep the peace, so that full-blown conflicts don't break out. Look at what's happened here. This isn't even a strategy or a policy. It is the president systematically destroying American alliances and American values. And that makes America worse off.“
I have every right to attack Trump and want him gone, yesterday would be too late
He will not gain another term but he is likely to cause more mayhem as he is unstable and irrational and a real danger to the trade and peace
Yes, the enemy. Lincolnshire is the devil's own county.
Final quesiton then - why are you so special that you are allowed to do this, but others are not?
Fortunately, Americans can and he will be gone in 2020
Trump will be re elected next November in my view
I'm interested on your view on one thing in particular. Do you think Donald Trump works hard? I've heard it said he does, but then I've heard it said he spends a lot of time playing golf and watching TV. Not sure where the truth lies. Any ideas?
The anger from the Americans we encountered was palpable and in some cases utter hatred for him.
He will be gone next year but what a mess he will leave behind
So when the British Realm expanded past the borders of Great Britain and Ireland and kept going to become an Empire, the people living under it were all British subjects, and when democracy was grafted onto it those subjects attained the right to vote for the British Parliament.
As the reach of the realm contracted back to these islands, the populations of the former colonies still loyal to the Crown retained that right. That right has been modified or withdrawn by the various Nationality Acts, but in many cases it is still true and so those populations may still hold it, even in the case of countries such as Ireland that now have their own Head of State.
Think of it as a computer with a still-open backdoor due to the fact that the UK is still running Empire legacy code and hasn't been rebooted with a new operating system, just had the old interface tarted up to look posh.
(Obviously I don’t want any attacks.)
I have a feeling you'd enjoy The Shield of Achilles: War Peace and Course of History by Philip Bobbitt if you haven't already read it.
https://abc7ny.com/politics/how-each-nyc-borough-voted-(hint-clinton-didnt-win-them-all)/1598306/
Lincolnshire is that blank space on the map that no one ever goes to
What a stupid stupid time to be alienating ourselves from our European neighbours.
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/465494-furious-republicans-prepare-to-rebuke-trump-on-syria
On Thursday, he raised the possibility of playing of mediator between Turkey and the Kurds, despite the fact that Trump’s retreat and Turkey’s incursion unraveled the previous U.S.-mediated plan for a safe zone.
“We can mediate. I hope we can mediate,” Trump told reporters at the White House.
His administration has also sought to change the narrative. A senior State Department official told reporters on a background call this past week that “we gave them a very clear red light,” while Esper told reporters Friday that “nobody greenlighted this operation” and insisted that “we have not abandoned the Kurds.”....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50035065
Now ISIS have been beaten Trump is simply refusing to keep US forces in Syria anymore, Assad has control of most of Syria again having beaten back the rebels and if the Kurds go to him for protection so be it.
On the contrary, they will look for ways to strike at the corrupt, decadent West.
Thousands of ISIS prisoners will now fan out across the world. They will contact friendly Mosques in the UK and the US. Money will flow. As will the occasional document from someone who looks broadly similar. According to the New York Times, a Turkish passport with a US tourist visa can be bought on the Internet for less than $400.
It's one thing to say "we're not going to support the Kurds anymore". That's well within the US's right, even if it might be foolish for the US to just dump its allies without notice. It's another to allow thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of hardened Islamic terrorists to go free.
https://flavible.co.uk/userprediction