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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The answer to Ben Brogan’s point about why in current conte

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited November 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The answer to Ben Brogan’s point about why in current context the Tories are doing badly is here from the August Ipsos-MORI poll

Telegraph's Ben Brogan says q not why LAB doing well, but why CON badly? http://t.co/stEH68O5IM
See this Aug 1/2 pic.twitter.com/NPiPYxk9LD

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    first.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Anthony Wells: "I would be surprised if Ukip doesn't come top in the European elections."

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/443718/Business-tycoon-backs-Daily-Express-crusade-on-immigration-as-he-vows-to-bankroll-Ukip
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    I hope some enterprising journalist is going to ask the FCA how they felt able to approve the members of the Co-op's Board as fit to run a bank.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Bodes well for a Presidential style election campaign then..
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    edited November 2013
    @Cyclefree Odd that the enterprising journalists and experienced commentators like Peston (amongst others) now have 20-20 hindsight over the appointment of Rev Paul Flowers & others on The Co-Op Bank's Board. Big case of selective amnesia on display, says a great deal about the quality of their analysis. If they had thought that the guy wasn't up to the job or was under-qualified, the time to write about it was long before last weekend.

    So other than being political hacks what were their special areas of expertise?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25006511

    Boles wants a Liberal Conservative Party, coming soon North of the Border, The Unionist Party.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    nypost has interesting story claiming the US job numbers were "faked" before the 2012 election.

    http://nypost.com/2013/11/18/census-faked-2012-election-jobs-report/

    "In the home stretch of the 2012 presidential campaign, from August to September, the unemployment rate fell sharply — raising eyebrows from Wall Street to Washington.
    The decline — from 8.1 percent in August to 7.8 percent in September — might not have been all it seemed. The numbers, according to a reliable source, were manipulated."
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    On topic - the short answer to Brogan is that they're still the same old Tories. Cameron's modernisation project has been shown to be a synthetic PR construct - underneath the Tories still hanker after the old Thatcherite certainties and seem to believe that this alone will deliver them Thatcher-style majorities.
  • MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    dr_spyn said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25006511

    Boles wants a Liberal Conservative Party, coming soon North of the Border, The Unionist Party.

    I thought it was the National Party of Liberals?
  • CityunslickerCityunslicker Posts: 60
    The Tories need to compete head on with labour outside of the south. Instead of wasting money campaigning they need to set-up businesses and support functions, like Libraries or local sports team etc, that make a real community impact and change the face of the Tories. After all, labour has hosed money onto these areas to create huge public sector work forces, they will be hard to shift in mindset when the Government honestly has given them so much. Like it or loathe it the Brown strategy for dvide and rule has been a very successful piece of realpolitick.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Inner London has a working-age population in which 60% have degrees, much higher than anywhere else in the UK, according to figures from the Office for National Statistics.

    The proportion of working-age adults in the UK with a degree has more than doubled in two decades - rising to 38%.

    There are now 12 million graduates - compared with three million people who left school without any qualifications, 6.6 million whose highest qualifications are five good GCSEs or equivalents and 6.7 million whose highest qualifications are A-levels.

    London's graduate population is three times the proportion in the north-east of England, where 29% have degrees. In Wales, the figure is 33% and 41% in Scotland.

    The big picture of the survey shows the relentless rise in graduate numbers. In 1992, only 15% of people had degrees, by 2013 this had reached 38%.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25002401
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    tim said:

    @michaelsavage Cameron ally tells Tories to modernise or die http://t.co/DBRrpuYkVx …

    "The Conservative Party risks becoming a “rural and suburban redoubt in the South of England” unless it appeals to new voters, one of the Prime Minister’s closest allies has warned."


    And they only have themselves to blame. The Tories wilfully threw away two ways in which they could have avoided this fate - a closer alliance with the Lib Dems and the boundary redistribution. Both of these options were available to them in 2010 but in their arrogance and refusal to acknowledge the political realities (ie weakness) of their position they spurned what could prove to have been their last opportunity of winning a parliamentary majority.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Millsy said:

    dr_spyn said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25006511

    Boles wants a Liberal Conservative Party, coming soon North of the Border, The Unionist Party.

    I thought it was the National Party of Liberals?
    Liberal National Party...splitters.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    Labour usually leads on likeability questions (which party best represents people like you, which party best represents all sections of society, which party wants the sort of society you want). The Conservatives usually lead on competence questions (which party has the best team of leaders, which party is most willing to take difficult decisions). What made the whole 1993-2005 period unusual was that Labour led across the board.

    The usual battle is likeability vs competence.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited November 2013
    TGOHF said:

    nypost has interesting story claiming the US job numbers were "faked" before the 2012 election.

    http://nypost.com/2013/11/18/census-faked-2012-election-jobs-report/

    "In the home stretch of the 2012 presidential campaign, from August to September, the unemployment rate fell sharply — raising eyebrows from Wall Street to Washington.
    The decline — from 8.1 percent in August to 7.8 percent in September — might not have been all it seemed. The numbers, according to a reliable source, were manipulated."

    Well fancy that! The beloved Obama, a simple forger and faker? Surely not!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Arrogance? The Lib Dems reneged on the deal after explicitly stating Lords reform (which was attempted very badly) was not necessary for boundary reforms.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    edited November 2013
    MikeK said:

    TGOHF said:

    nypost has interesting story claiming the US job numbers were "faked" before the 2012 election.

    http://nypost.com/2013/11/18/census-faked-2012-election-jobs-report/

    "In the home stretch of the 2012 presidential campaign, from August to September, the unemployment rate fell sharply — raising eyebrows from Wall Street to Washington.
    The decline — from 8.1 percent in August to 7.8 percent in September — might not have been all it seemed. The numbers, according to a reliable source, were manipulated."

    Well fancy that! The beloved Obama, a simple forger and faker? Surely not!
    Yes, they actually have CCTV evidence showing Obama manipulating the forms. Well done for getting to the kernel of the issue so quickly.

    Of course he has plenty of forging experience. He started with his birth cert when he was 6.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    edited November 2013
    David Cameron's posh boy image 'undermining fight against Scottish independence'
    - Exclusive: Former First Minister Henry McLeish says the Prime Minister is more hated than Margaret Thatcher and will add 5 per cent to support for independence unless he steps back from the campaign
    ... reflects concerns among Unionists that a resurgent Tory Party could drive Scots to support separation from the UK come September 2014.

    In an interview with The Telegraph, Mr McLeish, who was Labour First Minister of Scotland between October 2000 and November 2001, warned that Cameron was undermining the Better Together campaign.

    ... "Cameron is the big risky factor for the Unionist camp. He won't be seen much in Scotland. His polices are quite damaging ... [they] are perceived as being quite poisonous," Mr McLeish said.

    "He has got to take less of a role and I am convinced that he will be forced to take less of a role ... It is a very complex, fluid situation in Scotland and that is when the Cameron factor becomes quite crucial."

    ..."I don't throw these terms around lightly. [Cameron] is illustrative of the worst perceptions of Scots in terms of Toryism, much more beyond Thatcher. I think everything they are doing is anti-welfare, anti-Europe, anti-immigrants, anti-human rights issues.

    "He wants to create those common enemies. We don't have those common enemies now in Scotland. The enemy for most Scots now is the Conservative Party."
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10459299/David-Camerons-posh-boy-image-undermining-fight-against-Scottish-independence.html
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Is it better to be liked or respected?

    Giving away sweets and fudge(ing the tought choices) like Labour may make you liked but not respected. Making the tough choices to tackle Labour's mess of an economy we inherited, cut the deficit and ultimately grow the economy as is happening now may not be much like but should be respected.

    In mid-term its easy to think about likeability alone. At the election respect and competence comes into play too.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Philip_Thompson said:


    In mid-term its easy to think about likeability alone. At the election respect and competence comes into play too.

    Is that why Cameron and Osborne lost their huge mid-term leads in the run-up to the 2010 GE?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Neil said:

    Philip_Thompson said:


    In mid-term its easy to think about likeability alone. At the election respect and competence comes into play too.

    Is that why Cameron and Osborne lost their huge mid-term leads in the run-up to the 2010 GE?
    Yes. "Cling on to nurse for fear of worse". The Tories were being honest about the need for cuts while Labour was dismissing it as "too far too fast". Labour had the track record of experience in government, while Cameron and Osborne didn't and so a major fear factor of the unknown.

    That is not their now for next time.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Arrogance? The Lib Dems reneged on the deal after explicitly stating Lords reform (which was attempted very badly) was not necessary for boundary reforms.

    But if the Tories really wanted the boundary changes - which in my view should have been their overriding priority, nothing is more important for them - they would have given ground on Lords reform to keep the Lib Dems on board. After all, Lords reform is an issue of supreme unimportance to about 99% of the voters. The fact they did not even try to do this suggests something - if not arrogance, stupidity perhaps?
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited November 2013
    I think one needs to be very cautious about comparisons such as this. Oppositions and government parties are in very different circumstances. In particular, saying you 'like' an opposition party is an easy thing to say, and saying you like the party but not the leader might be a way of saying you like some idealised version of the party which doesn't exist and probably could never exist - and which might not be the same as the idealised version which another respondent 'likes'.

    Experience suggests that the best guide to UK elections is simply the headline voting intention figures from reputable pollsters.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @anothernick

    'could prove to have been their last opportunity of winning a parliamentary majority.'

    Seem to remember exactly the same being said about the Labour party on 1992..
  • TheSheikofShakeTheSheikofShake Posts: 83
    Neil said:

    Is that why Cameron and Osborne lost their huge mid-term leads in the run-up to the 2010 GE?

    Almost all oppositions lose momentum, and governments regain ground.

    Which is why it's pretty reasonable to conclude that a gap that has already shrunk by 4-8 points in the last twelve months will carry on shrinking if there is no economic relapse.

    Niceness counts for nothing when it is accompanied by numptiness.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    anothernick said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Arrogance? The Lib Dems reneged on the deal after explicitly stating Lords reform (which was attempted very badly) was not necessary for boundary reforms.

    But if the Tories really wanted the boundary changes - which in my view should have been their overriding priority, nothing is more important for them - they would have given ground on Lords reform to keep the Lib Dems on board. After all, Lords reform is an issue of supreme unimportance to about 99% of the voters. The fact they did not even try to do this suggests something - if not arrogance, stupidity perhaps?
    The Tories should have agreed to a cack-handed mess of Lords reform that would last indefinitely and possibly for centuries granting unbelievable 15 year elected so-called "mandates" in order to get a temporary, one-off boundary reform that would be out of date and being replaced within a decade?

    The Tories did agree to make changes for boundary reforms (despite boundary reforms already being due and scheduled). They agreed to a referendum which was in the same paragraph of the agreement as the reforms. That the LDs desire for reform was comprehensively defeated by two-thirds of the public is not the Tories fault.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    What's left to be "interesting" ?

    Gerard Tubb ‏@TubbSky 8m
    An interesting development on the Paul Flowers story soon
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    john_zims said:

    @anothernick

    'could prove to have been their last opportunity of winning a parliamentary majority.'

    Seem to remember exactly the same being said about the Labour party on 1992..

    Absolutely - often by the same 'experts' who a few weeks previously had been forecasting a Kinnock majority.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Brand Contamination in Scotland Part II

    'Ukip could be the midwife of Scottish independence'
    - A triumph by the anti-EU party in European elections would propel Tory Eurosceptics into overdrive and swell the nationalist vote in Scotland
    Arguably, the Better Togethers (whom I support) have turned the real issue on its head. That is: what to do about England? It is the English, thrashing around since 1945 in search of an identity, who pose the biggest threat to the EU with their threats to quit, to try and rewrite the treaties, to veto further integration, to turn the union into a mere free trade zone. One undeniable consequence of this drive – whether led by Nigel Farage and Ukip or the greater Switzerland wing of the Tories – is that it is hastening the break-up of Britain/the UK.

    As Charlie Jeffery, professor of politics at Edinburgh university and co-author of the recent IPPR study, England and its two unions, put it recently: "English Euroscepticism is more of a challenge to the UK than the independence movement in Scotland."

    It's not just that English and Scottish attitudes to the EU are reverse images of each other: a majority of Scots favour staying in the EU while a majority of the English would quit if given the choice. Almost two-thirds of Scots would want an independent Scotland to be a full EU member. In another survey 44% said they would vote for independence (higher than current polls suggest) if the UK looked like quitting the EU. With what Jeffery and his team call "an emerging English political identity", the 55 million-plus south of the border are pushing the UK towards the exit door in Brussels.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/19/ukip-scottish-independence-anti-eu-european-elections-scotland
  • DavidBrackenburyDavidBrackenbury Posts: 354
    Neil said:

    Philip_Thompson said:


    In mid-term its easy to think about likeability alone. At the election respect and competence comes into play too.

    Is that why Cameron and Osborne lost their huge mid-term leads in the run-up to the 2010 GE?
    It's the same way that Labour may lose their indifferent mid term leads now!

  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Leave the passports at home if you are going to the PB gathering.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2509837/Teenager-went-drunken-night-Oldham-woke-PARIS.html
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Philip_Thompson said:

    anothernick said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Arrogance? The Lib Dems reneged on the deal after explicitly stating Lords reform (which was attempted very badly) was not necessary for boundary reforms.

    But if the Tories really wanted the boundary changes - which in my view should have been their overriding priority, nothing is more important for them - they would have given ground on Lords reform to keep the Lib Dems on board. After all, Lords reform is an issue of supreme unimportance to about 99% of the voters. The fact they did not even try to do this suggests something - if not arrogance, stupidity perhaps?
    The Tories should have agreed to a cack-handed mess of Lords reform that would last indefinitely and possibly for centuries granting unbelievable 15 year elected so-called "mandates" in order to get a temporary, one-off boundary reform that would be out of date and being replaced within a decade?

    The Tories did agree to make changes for boundary reforms (despite boundary reforms already being due and scheduled). They agreed to a referendum which was in the same paragraph of the agreement as the reforms. That the LDs desire for reform was comprehensively defeated by two-thirds of the public is not the Tories fault.
    You illustrate my point very well - the detail of the HoL reform is unimportant to most people - the HoL has very little power anyway, and if the Tories won a majority they could do what they liked with the HoL at that point. All they had to do was to give enough ground to keep the Lib Dems on board. As it is the Tories have left themselves in a position in which it is far from clear that they can ever win a majority on their own again, as some of them, pace Mr Boles, are beginning to realise.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited November 2013
    Mr Peston wrote a rather interesting book about the impending financial crash - and appeared brimming with 2020 hindsight. Shame he never told us about it at the time...

    I read it on the train when it came out and was open-mouthed at what he revealed then but never told us on the BBC.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Britain-Britains-elite-changing-lives/dp/0340839422

    "As Robert Peston shows in his fascinating new book, the seeds for the collapse of Northern Rock and the upheavals in the financial markets were sown years before. WHO RUNS BRITAIN? is the first time anyone has drawn all the threads together to weave a story thats rich in extraordinary characters and outrageous feats of economic bravado"
    dr_spyn said:

    @Cyclefree Odd that the enterprising journalists and experienced commentators like Peston (amongst others) now have 20-20 hindsight over the appointment of Rev Paul Flowers & others on The Co-Op Bank's Board. Big case of selective amnesia on display, says a great deal about the quality of their analysis. If they had thought that the guy wasn't up to the job or was under-qualified, the time to write about it was long before last weekend.

    So other than being political hacks what were their special areas of expertise?

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Plato said:

    Mr Peston wrote a rather interesting book about the impending financial crash - and appeared brimming with 2020 hindsight. Shame he never told us about it at the time...

    I read it on the train when it came out and was open-mouthed at what he revealed then but never told us on the BBC.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Britain-Britains-elite-changing-lives/dp/0340839422

    "As Robert Peston shows in his fascinating new book, the seeds for the collapse of Northern Rock and the upheavals in the financial markets were sown years before. WHO RUNS BRITAIN? is the first time anyone has drawn all the threads together to weave a story thats rich in extraordinary characters and outrageous feats of economic bravado"

    dr_spyn said:

    @Cyclefree Odd that the enterprising journalists and experienced commentators like Peston (amongst others) now have 20-20 hindsight over the appointment of Rev Paul Flowers & others on The Co-Op Bank's Board. Big case of selective amnesia on display, says a great deal about the quality of their analysis. If they had thought that the guy wasn't up to the job or was under-qualified, the time to write about it was long before last weekend.

    So other than being political hacks what were their special areas of expertise?

    Plato, long time not here ! Where were you ?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Surely its now the EU Party of Liberals?
    Millsy said:

    dr_spyn said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25006511

    Boles wants a Liberal Conservative Party, coming soon North of the Border, The Unionist Party.

    I thought it was the National Party of Liberals?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    spot on.
    Cityunslicker said:

    The Tories need to compete head on with labour outside of the south. Instead of wasting money campaigning they need to set-up businesses and support functions, like Libraries or local sports team etc, that make a real community impact and change the face of the Tories. After all, labour has hosed money onto these areas to create huge public sector work forces, they will be hard to shift in mindset when the Government honestly has given them so much. Like it or loathe it the Brown strategy for dvide and rule has been a very successful piece of realpolitick.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    RichardNabavi said:

    john_zims said:

    @anothernick

    'could prove to have been their last opportunity of winning a parliamentary majority.'

    Seem to remember exactly the same being said about the Labour party on 1992..

    Absolutely - often by the same 'experts' who a few weeks previously had been forecasting a Kinnock majority.
    Cling on to '92 dreams ! Is that what your straw is called ?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    TGOHF said:

    What's left to be "interesting" ?

    Gerard Tubb ‏@TubbSky 8m
    An interesting development on the Paul Flowers story soon

    My mind is boggling.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited November 2013
    Stuart_Dickson said:

    David Cameron's posh boy image 'undermining fight against Scottish independence'

    The bit you missed out of McCleish's analysis was: "David Cameron is doing irreconcilable damage to the campaign to defeat Scottish independence and must step back before it its too late, the former First Minister of Scotland has said."

    How can Cameron 'step back' from something he's barely involved in?

    As I commented, when I posted the article a couple of hours ago, I think it says more about Labour squeamishness in working with the Tories in 'Better Together' than anything else....really smart, presenting those in favour of the union as divided.....

    Oooh, please Sir! It wasn't us sir! We didn't lose the Union - it was that nasty David Cameron, who was never here.....
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited November 2013
    surbiton said:

    RichardNabavi said:

    john_zims said:

    @anothernick

    'could prove to have been their last opportunity of winning a parliamentary majority.'

    Seem to remember exactly the same being said about the Labour party on 1992..

    Absolutely - often by the same 'experts' who a few weeks previously had been forecasting a Kinnock majority.
    Cling on to '92 dreams ! Is that what your straw is called ?
    Not at all. My point - had you bothered to read it - was about the fallibility of so-called experts and the folly of extrapolating the current situation too far into the future. Indeed, I made exactly the same point when some people were writing off the Labour Party in 2011, and urged PBers to bet on Labour whilst the price was very attractive. You did follow my advice, I imagine?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    @TGOHF Same source has tweeted references to something inappropriate on his computer which forced his resignation.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    TGOHF said:

    What's left to be "interesting" ?

    Gerard Tubb ‏@TubbSky 8m
    An interesting development on the Paul Flowers story soon

    BREAK Ex Co-op bank's Paul Flowers resigned from Bradford Council in 2011 after inappropriate adult content found on his computer

    Pretty tame by what we've had so far today.....anyone know why he left Rochdale?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Oborne boots Bercow

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100246765/john-bercow-has-betrayed-his-duty-to-parliament-by-misusing-the-chairmans-panel/

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    It used to be said that the labour party owed more to Methodism than Marx.

    Is it still true?

  • R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391
    This has all been hilarious to watch today.

    Why oh why! After all, the Tories get everything right, and Labour everything wrong, and David Cameron is a towering figure, a great PM! Why oh why aren't we more popular?!

    Talk about a collective lack of self-awareness.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    The scandal-hit former boss of the Co-op bank previously quit as a councillor over "inappropriate" content found on his computer.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1170826/flowers-quit-council-over-adult-content
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    CarlottaVance said:

    TGOHF said:

    What's left to be "interesting" ?

    Gerard Tubb ‏@TubbSky 8m
    An interesting development on the Paul Flowers story soon

    BREAK Ex Co-op bank's Paul Flowers resigned from Bradford Council in 2011 after inappropriate adult content found on his computer

    Pretty tame by what we've had so far today.....anyone know why he left Rochdale?
    He secretly voted UKIP once?
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Spain to take the role of Argentina?

    'UK Foreign Office says it has summoned Spain's ambassador after "significant activity" by Spanish ship off Gibraltar'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25008237
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @ROberts

    And to think Gordon Brown saved the world's banking system,truly a towering figure.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    dr_spyn said:

    The scandal-hit former boss of the Co-op bank previously quit as a councillor over "inappropriate" content found on his computer.

    How he must have wished that Dave's porn filter had been operational.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Is the entire Co op brand in danger ? Ratner moment or passing embarrassment ?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Missing out on stories on drug crazed Minister of Religion's recreational activities must be hell for the ex NOW journalists not to be able to cover such stuff.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    TGOHF said:

    Is the entire Co op brand in danger ?

    No.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,779
    I think Paul Flowers and Brian Coleman should get it on... perfect for each other.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    Is the entire Co op brand in danger ?

    No.
    What about the Co op bank ?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    @Neil perhaps he is vying with Rob Ford for most novel political resignation of the year award.
  • R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391
    As for the "process of decontamination".

    As others have said, it never really started. It was always synthetic PR from Cameron. It needs to start when they're back in opposition, or the voters who elect the next Tory majority Government might not even have been alive during the last one.

    They need to shed their backward looking Thatcher hankering once and for all, ditch their blind-faith Rightwing worship of "the market" and ideological purity, get their heads out of the arses of vested interests and batty Rightwing thinktanks , and get back to pragmatic, compassionate and broad-based Conservatism.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Sky News has learned that he resigned as a Bradford councillor in 2011 after "inappropriate but not illegal adult content" was found on a council computer he had handed in for service.

    Testing the firewalls and competence of IT department excuse coming soon.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    So far as I can tell, the only thing missing that could make this the perfect tabloid story is a missing Royal connection. Or X-factor, which is much the same at present.
    dr_spyn said:

    Missing out on stories on drug crazed Minister of Religion's recreational activities must be hell for the ex NOW journalists not to be able to cover such stuff.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    R0berts said:

    ditch their blind-faith Rightwing worship of "the market" and ideological purity, get their heads out of the arses of vested interests and batty Rightwing thinktanks

    Should they copy Labour and have blind faith Leftwing worship of "unions" and public sector purity, of vested union interests and batty leftwing thinktanks ?
  • R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391
    TGOHF said:

    R0berts said:

    ditch their blind-faith Rightwing worship of "the market" and ideological purity, get their heads out of the arses of vested interests and batty Rightwing thinktanks

    Should they copy Labour and have blind faith Leftwing worship of "unions" and public sector purity, of vested union interests and batty leftwing thinktanks ?
    No.

    Next.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    @Foxinsoxuk or links to Op Utree or ongoing trial at Central Criminal Court or Vile James (dec.). -then BINGO.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    R0berts said:

    TGOHF said:

    R0berts said:

    ditch their blind-faith Rightwing worship of "the market" and ideological purity, get their heads out of the arses of vested interests and batty Rightwing thinktanks

    Should they copy Labour and have blind faith Leftwing worship of "unions" and public sector purity, of vested union interests and batty leftwing thinktanks ?
    No.

    Next.
    I agree one party in hock to the unions is enough.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    TGOHF said:

    Is the entire Co op brand in danger ? Ratner moment or passing embarrassment ?

    No - its embarrassing - and the people who should be worrying are any left in senior positions who may not be appropriately qualified - but the movement will carry on - as the chap from Ethical Consumer put it:

    To some degree the let down happened before the Paul Flowers stuff – that was just the icing in the cake – people were already let down by selling it to American hedge funds.

    http://www.itv.com/news/story/2013-11-18/labour-suspends-ex-bank-chief/
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    G4S in a bit of bother.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25001800

    Might lower their chances of work in Glasgow next summer.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    CarlottaVance said:

    people were already let down by selling it to American hedge funds

    There was an alternative source of equity that they turned down?
  • R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391
    TGOHF said:

    R0berts said:

    TGOHF said:

    R0berts said:

    ditch their blind-faith Rightwing worship of "the market" and ideological purity, get their heads out of the arses of vested interests and batty Rightwing thinktanks

    Should they copy Labour and have blind faith Leftwing worship of "unions" and public sector purity, of vested union interests and batty leftwing thinktanks ?
    No.

    Next.
    I agree one party in hock to the unions is enough.
    Dropping the obsessive hatred and default demonisation of unions would be an important part of the process of Tory modernisation / decontamination if they ever want to win again.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    dr_spyn said:

    G4S in a bit of bother.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25001800

    Might lower their chances of work in Glasgow next summer.

    The opening ceremony hasn't sold out yet. The diving featuring Tom Daley has though - but that's in Edinburgh..
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    It's a wonder that Dave and Hague can look any Briton in the eye while this farrago of nonsense is allowed to carry on.

    http://order-order.com/2013/11/19/war-video-of-spanish-disastrous-invasion-and-retreat/
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    TGOHF said:

    dr_spyn said:

    G4S in a bit of bother.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25001800

    Might lower their chances of work in Glasgow next summer.

    The opening ceremony hasn't sold out yet. The diving featuring Tom Daley has though - but that's in Edinburgh..
    Presumably JohnLoony has block-booked.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    R0berts said:

    TGOHF said:

    R0berts said:

    TGOHF said:

    R0berts said:

    ditch their blind-faith Rightwing worship of "the market" and ideological purity, get their heads out of the arses of vested interests and batty Rightwing thinktanks

    Should they copy Labour and have blind faith Leftwing worship of "unions" and public sector purity, of vested union interests and batty leftwing thinktanks ?
    No.

    Next.
    I agree one party in hock to the unions is enough.
    Dropping the obsessive hatred and default demonisation of unions would be an important part of the process of Tory modernisation / decontamination if they ever want to win again.

    It's not the Unions - its their fatcat leaders on six figure salaries using the members and their cash for Marxist aims - using dubious tactics...

    You part of the leverage squad or do you just support their methods ?

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    foxinsoxuk said:

    So far as I can tell, the only thing missing that could make this the perfect tabloid story is a missing Royal connection. Or X-factor, which is much the same at present.

    dr_spyn said:

    Missing out on stories on drug crazed Minister of Religion's recreational activities must be hell for the ex NOW journalists not to be able to cover such stuff.

    Slightly tangential - but the queen opened the COOP's new £105m HQ on Thursday and got a gift from Len Wardle:

    http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/ex-co-operative-boss-rev-paul-flowers-6312363
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    TGOHF said:

    Is the entire Co op brand in danger ? Ratner moment or passing embarrassment ?

    A couple of years ago an organisation that I know of was marketing a small retail supermarket space on the ground floor of a new development in London. An agent was employed, a target rent agreed and marketing began. Eventually there were two serious bidders, the Co-Op and one of the big 4 supermarket chains. The bids shot up to almost double the target rent and just as the Co-Op seemed about to lose out they suddenly upped their offer even further and added a premium (which had not been sought) on top. So they got the space, but at a price which was probably at least 50% above the going rate. If this is typical of how they do business then they're f*cked IMO.
  • R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391
    TGOHF said:

    R0berts said:

    TGOHF said:

    R0berts said:

    TGOHF said:

    R0berts said:

    ditch their blind-faith Rightwing worship of "the market" and ideological purity, get their heads out of the arses of vested interests and batty Rightwing thinktanks

    Should they copy Labour and have blind faith Leftwing worship of "unions" and public sector purity, of vested union interests and batty leftwing thinktanks ?
    No.

    Next.
    I agree one party in hock to the unions is enough.
    Dropping the obsessive hatred and default demonisation of unions would be an important part of the process of Tory modernisation / decontamination if they ever want to win again.

    It's not the Unions - its their fatcat leaders on six figure salaries using the members and their cash for Marxist aims - using dubious tactics...

    You part of the leverage squad or do you just support their methods ?

    good grief
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    MikeK said:

    It's a wonder that Dave and Hague can look any Briton in the eye while this farrago of nonsense is allowed to carry on.

    http://order-order.com/2013/11/19/war-video-of-spanish-disastrous-invasion-and-retreat/

    Farage would be bombing Madrid by now, I suppose?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    RichardNabavi said:

    MikeK said:

    It's a wonder that Dave and Hague can look any Briton in the eye while this farrago of nonsense is allowed to carry on.

    http://order-order.com/2013/11/19/war-video-of-spanish-disastrous-invasion-and-retreat/

    Farage would be bombing Madrid by now, I suppose?
    I remember during the Falklands war in the Commons bar a Labour MP was heard to demand that we 'show the Argies by dropping a big one on Rio' 'Indeed, but won't it upset the Brazilians?' came the reply.....

  • R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391
    The Tories need their Kinnock, Smith and Blair.

    I'm not sure David Cameron is any of those. Kinnock, at a stretch.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    General Election @UKELECTIONS2015
    Seventeen members of the shadow front bench are members of the Co-operative Party, including Ed Balls, the Shadow Chancellor
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    R0berts said:


    I'm not sure David Cameron is any of those. Kinnock, at a stretch.

    He is PM though.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    R0berts said:

    The Tories need their Kinnock, Smith and Blair.

    I'm not sure David Cameron is any of those.

    No, thank heaven, he's not a windbag, a provincial solicitor, or a con-merchant.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Interesting snippet from Peston's latest Blog:
    PS. I am told Mr Flowers used his platform as Co-op chairman to increase his influence with senior members of the Labour Party. He was on a finance and industry advisory group set up by the Labour leader, Ed Miliband.
    After Miliband's initiative to distance the Labour Party from the unions, one has to wonder whether the Co-Op might be the next part of the movement to float away.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    david_herdson said:


    After Miliband's initiative to distance the Labour Party from the unions, one has to wonder whether the Co-Op might be the next part of the movement to float away.

    Direct links to organisations with millions of members are an electoral asset rather than hindrance. Why on earth would anyone throw them away?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited November 2013
    RichardNabavi said:

    MikeK said:

    It's a wonder that Dave and Hague can look any Briton in the eye while this farrago of nonsense is allowed to carry on.

    http://order-order.com/2013/11/19/war-video-of-spanish-disastrous-invasion-and-retreat/

    Farage would be bombing Madrid by now, I suppose?
    Don't be silly. However, I'm sure the Spanish would deal with Britain a bit more respectfully if Farrage was in charge.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited November 2013
    Neil said:

    david_herdson said:


    After Miliband's initiative to distance the Labour Party from the unions, one has to wonder whether the Co-Op might be the next part of the movement to float away.

    Direct links to organisations with millions of members are an electoral asset rather than hindrance. Why on earth would anyone throw them away?
    Good question, better ask Ed why he plans to.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    MikeK said:

    Don't be silly. However, I'm sure the Spanish would deal with Britain a bit more respectfully if Farrage was in charge.

    So what on earth are you going on about, other than your usual carping? What precisely do you want Hague and Cameron to do that they're not doing? Come on, let's hear it.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    City am already calling for the Co op to de politicise...

    http://www.cityam.com/article/1384827995/there-nothing-worse-self-righteousness-business

    "Bizarrely the Co-op, now partly owned by hedge funds, is still making donations to the Labour party – it should stop them immediately; the fact that it is launching a root and branch review of the way it operates is welcome, if belated."

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    New Board at Co-Op happy to oversee move to new building, over expansion of banking, ambitious merger policy, and then have fall out over a multitude of failings due to inexperienced over tired and emotional ex Chairman. Hubris before nemesis.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    RichardNabavi said:

    Neil said:

    david_herdson said:


    After Miliband's initiative to distance the Labour Party from the unions, one has to wonder whether the Co-Op might be the next part of the movement to float away.

    Direct links to organisations with millions of members are an electoral asset rather than hindrance. Why on earth would anyone throw them away?
    Good question, better ask Ed why he plans to.
    He doesnt.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    dr_spyn said:

    New Board at Co-Op happy to oversee move to new building, over expansion of banking, ambitious merger policy, and then have fall out over a multitude of failings due to inexperienced over tired and emotional ex Chairman. Hubris before nemesis.

    Given the deep doo doo the bank is in I'd be amazed if still part of the group in 12 months time.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    tim said:

    A PR man who got his job through Lady Astors palace connections and couldn't even beat Brown while relentlessly using his family to lie about the NHS has the moral high ground over John Smith.

    Eh? Who said anything about moral high ground? John Smith was a person of great integrity, like most provincial solicitors are for that matter. But he wasn't exactly the most charismatic of politicians.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    Neil said:

    He doesnt.

    Yes, that's what I think.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    TGOHF said:


    Bizarrely the Co-op, now partly owned by hedge funds, is still making donations to the Labour party

    Isnt it the Coop Bank that is partly owned by hedge funds but the Coop Group (which is owned by its members) that is making donations to Labour?

  • CityunslickerCityunslicker Posts: 60
    R0berts said:

    TGOHF said:

    R0berts said:

    TGOHF said:

    R0berts said:

    ditch their blind-faith Rightwing worship of "the market" and ideological purity, get their heads out of the arses of vested interests and batty Rightwing thinktanks

    Should they copy Labour and have blind faith Leftwing worship of "unions" and public sector purity, of vested union interests and batty leftwing thinktanks ?
    No.

    Next.
    I agree one party in hock to the unions is enough.
    Dropping the obsessive hatred and default demonisation of unions would be an important part of the process of Tory modernisation / decontamination if they ever want to win again.

    That is one of the few pieces of ideology left that resonate with many voters. You seem to be suggesting the Tories ape Labour ideals. We need parties who offer different visions.

    The Tories have the 'Thatcher' legacy which imperils them in North and Scotland - we will find out in 2015 if Labour have a similar 'Brown' legacy re financial incompetence - my hunch is the north-south divide has become a chasm as Northern voters, logically, see public sector jobs and make work programmes provided by a Labour government as better than the dole of Thatcher. In the South, they see the costs of this in tax rises and vote accordingly.

    So betting wise, we can forget a Tory re-surgence in the North and also expect Labour to under-perform in southern marginals under the Ed's leaderhsip. The midlands and london boroughs will be the only real battleground where straight blue/red contests will be hard to call
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    RichardNabavi said:

    Neil said:

    He doesnt.

    Yes, that's what I think.
    It's not a case of what anyone thinks - it's a matter of record what Ed intends to do regarding the relationship between members of affiliated trade unions and the Labour party.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    CarlottaVance said:

    TGOHF said:

    What's left to be "interesting" ?

    Gerard Tubb ‏@TubbSky 8m
    An interesting development on the Paul Flowers story soon

    BREAK Ex Co-op bank's Paul Flowers resigned from Bradford Council in 2011 after inappropriate adult content found on his computer

    Pretty tame by what we've had so far today.....anyone know why he left Rochdale?
    Curious that they didn't mention it at the time. The impetus for his resignation then was given as 'family reasons'. Curious also that they've chosen to mention it now. Revenge best served cold, perhaps, now that he's lost all influence and reputation, and the political risks of doing so are much diluted?

    I have to say, I find the whole thing quite bizarre. It's the first time I've seen a political scandal on this level where I've known one of those involved. I worked fairly closely with Flowers for a while on Bradford Council, when I chaired the Health Scrutiny Committee and he was the Labour spokesman on it (or possibly someone else was technically the spokesman but he was clearly the dynamic factor in that group). It was only for a year, in 2002-3 before I stood down at the end of my term, but he struck me as a forceful but thoughtful individual; not one to be crossed lightly but not bull-headed either. A lack of self-confidence, however, was not one of his weaknesses. An excess of it, on the other hand, may well have been.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited November 2013
    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:


    Bizarrely the Co-op, now partly owned by hedge funds, is still making donations to the Labour party

    Isnt it the Coop Bank that is partly owned by hedge funds but the Coop Group (which is owned by its members) that is making donations to Labour?

    The group donate to the Co op party who also donate to Labour .

    Details here..

    http://unlockdemocracy.org.uk/blog/entry/donor-of-the-week-the-co-operative-group


  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    TGOHF said:


    The group donate to the Co op party who also donate to Labour .

    That was my point - that I thought it was the Group that donates rather than the hedge-fund-owned bank as suggested by City AM.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    RichardNabavi said:

    tim said:

    A PR man who got his job through Lady Astors palace connections and couldn't even beat Brown while relentlessly using his family to lie about the NHS has the moral high ground over John Smith.

    Eh? Who said anything about moral high ground? John Smith was a person of great integrity, like most provincial solicitors are for that matter. But he wasn't exactly the most charismatic of politicians.
    Just what the Tories could've done with in 2010 really, a Tory John Smith (ie a John Major type) would've got a majority against Brown, whereas Cameron/Osborne blew it.

    Still no one has addressed the Tories deep seated brand problem which is very heartening.

    They appear to be a mirror of Labours deep seated brand problem all over the south.


  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    david_herdson said:

    A lack of self-confidence, however, was not one of his weaknesses. An excess of it, on the other hand, may well have been.

    The coke cant have helped.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    tim said:


    Just what the Tories could've done with in 2010 really,

    Come to think of it, a John Smith-type figure is exactly what Labour needed post 2010 - someone solid, sensible, responsible and decent, free of gimmicks. Unfortunately none of the five candidates really fitted the bill. Ed might not lose the election, but it won't take long after that before Labour realises its mistake. In fact, they already know it, don't they? They've just stopped saying it.
This discussion has been closed.