Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Europe and the Security Schism

SystemSystem Posts: 12,128
edited September 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Europe and the Security Schism

After several centuries of slowly drifting apart, the Eastern Roman Empire’s Orthodox Church and what became known as the Roman Catholic Church of Rome split. This difference, due to arguments about doctrine and pre-eminence of Pope and Patriarch, ended up having continental consequences.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • First out the Brexit door....
  • Two
  • Three
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Not really second
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited September 2019
    Yay! Someone else has turned up!!
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    FPT

    AndyJS said:

    nichomar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Logging on to PB for the first time this evening. Has anything important happened in the last few hours?

    No but the Telly is shit at the moment
    There's always Top of the Pops 1988 on BBC4.
    Presumably edited down to about nine minutes?
    Due to sundry unperson DJs?

    OTOH 1988 was the year of Rick Astley
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Yay! Someone else has turned up!!

    Well ... it's possibly not something to admit that one is in on a Friday :-(
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    First.
  • The referrer is noteworthy.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,490

    Yay! Someone else has turned up!!

    The rest of us were reading the post
  • Tabman said:

    Yay! Someone else has turned up!!

    Well ... it's possibly not something to admit that one is in on a Friday :-(
    I do not worry about such things ;)
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Tabman said:

    Yay! Someone else has turned up!!

    Well ... it's possibly not something to admit that one is in on a Friday :-(
    Some of us have got nothing better to do but I am considering knitting as an alternative
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    The referrer is noteworthy.

    Yes, they'd given him 14 days to respond 3 days ago. Obviously they feel they are pressed for time for some reason, I wonder what the political make up of the GLA is?
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,490
    On topic - there will always be a need for NATO or something like NATO. an updated NATO would delegate responsibility for europe to the european nations. that would make NATO be there to counter other threats (Russia will always be a threat).
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    Will waste lots of time and money and go absolutely no where I expect...
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Tabman said:

    Yay! Someone else has turned up!!

    Well ... it's possibly not something to admit that one is in on a Friday :-(
    I do not worry about such things ;)
    As a PB veteran (15 years and counting) I am no spring chicken, so Friday Night in is par for the course. I just wish I could raid @JackW's cellar!

  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Tabman said:

    Tabman said:

    Yay! Someone else has turned up!!

    Well ... it's possibly not something to admit that one is in on a Friday :-(
    I do not worry about such things ;)
    As a PB veteran (15 years and counting) I am no spring chicken, so Friday Night in is par for the course. I just wish I could raid @JackW's cellar!

    It’s like. Watching constant reruns of dads army!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,794
    Excellent article, @Morris_Dancer ! Write more, please!
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    GIN1138 said:

    Will waste lots of time and money and go absolutely no where I expect...
    Well if he was stupid enough to make it obvious he deserves his collar felt I guess
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,794
    Tabman said:

    Yay! Someone else has turned up!!

    Well ... it's possibly not something to admit that one is in on a Friday :-(
    I am on a train. Again. Home is much better... :(
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    GIN1138 said:

    Will waste lots of time and money and go absolutely no where I expect...
    I dunno, the lady in question has an interesting herstory...

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1176889601346232321?s=19
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Even if there’s loads of evidence the police will be very reluctant to effectively force Bozo to resign .

    I know most Leavers couldn’t care less what the Great Leader does but its game over if you get done for misconduct in public office .
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,794
    Tabman said:

    FPT

    AndyJS said:

    nichomar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Logging on to PB for the first time this evening. Has anything important happened in the last few hours?

    No but the Telly is shit at the moment
    There's always Top of the Pops 1988 on BBC4.
    Presumably edited down to about nine minutes?
    Due to sundry unperson DJs?

    OTOH 1988 was the year of Rick Astley
    Oh God, 1988. Everybody was on Ecstasy and the music showed it. Not good. Still, I assume some remember it fondly.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    edited September 2019

    The referrer is noteworthy.

    Yes, they'd given him 14 days to respond 3 days ago. Obviously they feel they are pressed for time for some reason, I wonder what the political make up of the GLA is?
    Remainer plot ... treacherous diehards ... conspiring with a foreign power ... enemies of the people ... left-wing judges ... more custard on those prunes please, nurse
  • GIN1138 said:

    Will waste lots of time and money and go absolutely no where I expect...
    I seem to remember similar comments from Leavers about the recent case about prorogation.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    nichomar said:

    Tabman said:

    Tabman said:

    Yay! Someone else has turned up!!

    Well ... it's possibly not something to admit that one is in on a Friday :-(
    I do not worry about such things ;)
    As a PB veteran (15 years and counting) I am no spring chicken, so Friday Night in is par for the course. I just wish I could raid @JackW's cellar!

    It’s like. Watching constant reruns of dads army!
    Indeed! We are fortunate to still be here. Salute to those no longer with us, with particular thoughts for Mark Senior and Paul Lloyd. Requiem in Pace.


  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    nico67 said:

    Even if there’s loads of evidence the police will be very reluctant to effectively force Bozo to resign .

    I know most Leavers couldn’t care less what the Great Leader does but its game over if you get done for misconduct in public office .

    Maybe they should stop worrying about Brexit and prioritise the plan to replace all the judges with Conservative Party stalwarts!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153

    GIN1138 said:

    Will waste lots of time and money and go absolutely no where I expect...
    I seem to remember similar comments from Leavers about the recent case about prorogation.
    Old Bill will be leading this one not Old Brenda. :D
  • On topic, EU countries are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. They’re encouraged by the US to put more into defence and then if they work together to do just that, the Eurosceptics come out in hives. If they want to work together, why shouldn’t they?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    "In overall terms, in 2017, the United States’ total national-defence outlays amounted to US$602.8 billion. This was the equivalent of 70.1% of aggregate spending by all NATO member states. The second-highest spender was the United Kingdom, accounting for 5.9% of NATO’s total defence expenditure, as measured by the IISS."

    Judging by the historical reluctance of rump EU nations to pay their way defence wise, any EU army will be hugely under resourced even if concentrated on "domestic" matters. How will that suit Poland, the Baltic countries and other former Comecon countries? More protectionism in spades? Fortress Europe? Little chance, I suspect.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited September 2019
    viewcode said:

    Tabman said:

    FPT

    AndyJS said:

    nichomar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Logging on to PB for the first time this evening. Has anything important happened in the last few hours?

    No but the Telly is shit at the moment
    There's always Top of the Pops 1988 on BBC4.
    Presumably edited down to about nine minutes?
    Due to sundry unperson DJs?

    OTOH 1988 was the year of Rick Astley
    Oh God, 1988. Everybody was on Ecstasy and the music showed it. Not good. Still, I assume some remember it fondly.
    1988 had some seminal releases by REM, NWA, Public Enemy, Bad Religion, Metallica, Sonic Youth...but I don't think most of those got invited on Top of the Pops that often.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    edited September 2019
    viewcode said:

    Tabman said:

    FPT

    AndyJS said:

    nichomar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Logging on to PB for the first time this evening. Has anything important happened in the last few hours?

    No but the Telly is shit at the moment
    There's always Top of the Pops 1988 on BBC4.
    Presumably edited down to about nine minutes?
    Due to sundry unperson DJs?

    OTOH 1988 was the year of Rick Astley
    Oh God, 1988. Everybody was on Ecstasy and the music showed it. Not good. Still, I assume some remember it fondly.
    I was in the flush of youth, gracing Tabbish halls ... oh tempora, oh mores ...

    I've recently discovered some music from that time. Eurythmics. I thought long gone by late 80s but no. Ms Lennox ... oh if one only had a time machine

  • GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Will waste lots of time and money and go absolutely no where I expect...
    I seem to remember similar comments from Leavers about the recent case about prorogation.
    Old Bill will be leading this one not Old Brenda. :D
    I did think Boris the Spider was a nice touch.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Scott_P said:
    He downloaded his dongle in the wrong place methinks...
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    GIN1138 said:

    Will waste lots of time and money and go absolutely no where I expect...
    I seem to remember similar comments from Leavers about the recent case about prorogation.
    I seem to remember that you have a very selective/ imaginative memory.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,794
    Tabman said:

    nichomar said:

    Tabman said:

    Tabman said:

    Yay! Someone else has turned up!!

    Well ... it's possibly not something to admit that one is in on a Friday :-(
    I do not worry about such things ;)
    As a PB veteran (15 years and counting) I am no spring chicken, so Friday Night in is par for the course. I just wish I could raid @JackW's cellar!

    It’s like. Watching constant reruns of dads army!
    Indeed! We are fortunate to still be here. Salute to those no longer with us, with particular thoughts for Mark Senior and Paul Lloyd. Requiem in Pace.


    Plus Phillipa, better known as Plato... :( We've had stab wounds, homelessness, posters with long-term illnesses, spouses with cancer, dead parents and spouses, career changes and at least one birth. Life does go on and occasionally there are glimpses of other's suffering to put ours in context...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Will waste lots of time and money and go absolutely no where I expect...
    I seem to remember similar comments from Leavers about the recent case about prorogation.
    Old Bill will be leading this one not Old Brenda. :D
    I did think Boris the Spider was a nice touch.
    Indeed!

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828

    GIN1138 said:

    Will waste lots of time and money and go absolutely no where I expect...
    I seem to remember similar comments from Leavers about the recent case about prorogation.
    Their comments about the electoral commission's recent cases were correct though. :)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Interesting post, thanks Mr Dancer. I have to say, if the EU wants to put together an army, good luck to them. I don't see the problem. Likewise if France wants to give up its UNSC seat to the EU, I think that would be make a lot of sense.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Chris said:

    nico67 said:

    Even if there’s loads of evidence the police will be very reluctant to effectively force Bozo to resign .

    I know most Leavers couldn’t care less what the Great Leader does but its game over if you get done for misconduct in public office .

    Maybe they should stop worrying about Brexit and prioritise the plan to replace all the judges with Conservative Party stalwarts!
    I’ve never voted Tory but at least previous governments didn’t act in this way . Bozo and his cabinet are now a clear and present danger to the UK .

  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    spudgfsh said:

    On topic - there will always be a need for NATO or something like NATO. an updated NATO would delegate responsibility for europe to the european nations. that would make NATO be there to counter other threats (Russia will always be a threat).

    +1 It never ceases to amaze me the fact Russia has thousands of nuclear weapons seems to pass many people's perception of international threats without acknowledgement. The same could be said of Chinese rapid progression from a sleeping giant into a sinister rival that wants to shape the international system to its agenda. NATO prevented Soviet expansion and the snuffing out of freedom throughout the world. It would be a grave mistake to abandon NATO unless you live in the US....
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    viewcode said:

    Tabman said:

    nichomar said:

    Tabman said:

    Tabman said:

    Yay! Someone else has turned up!!

    Well ... it's possibly not something to admit that one is in on a Friday :-(
    I do not worry about such things ;)
    As a PB veteran (15 years and counting) I am no spring chicken, so Friday Night in is par for the course. I just wish I could raid @JackW's cellar!

    It’s like. Watching constant reruns of dads army!
    Indeed! We are fortunate to still be here. Salute to those no longer with us, with particular thoughts for Mark Senior and Paul Lloyd. Requiem in Pace.


    Plus Phillipa, better known as Plato... :( We've had stab wounds, homelessness, posters with long-term illnesses, spouses with cancer, dead parents and spouses, career changes and at least one birth. Life does go on and occasionally there are glimpses of other's suffering to put ours in context...
    Having taken a very extended holiday, with occasional returns when exciting events have taken place, it's reassuring and humbling to observe the continuity offset with the inevitable change.

    I do indeed recall Plato - never knew her real name though.

    I did attend the first ever PB pub meet near Liverpool St Station. A long time ago. Autre temps, autre moeurs. I've met some good friends through this august portal, though.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    nico67 said:

    Chris said:

    nico67 said:

    Even if there’s loads of evidence the police will be very reluctant to effectively force Bozo to resign .

    I know most Leavers couldn’t care less what the Great Leader does but its game over if you get done for misconduct in public office .

    Maybe they should stop worrying about Brexit and prioritise the plan to replace all the judges with Conservative Party stalwarts!
    I’ve never voted Tory but at least previous governments didn’t act in this way . Bozo and his cabinet are now a clear and present danger to the UK .

    and I always had you down as a closet Tory
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,490

    On topic, EU countries are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. They’re encouraged by the US to put more into defence and then if they work together to do just that, the Eurosceptics come out in hives. If they want to work together, why shouldn’t they?

    At some point the EU will have to tackle some of the budget issues with the CAP in order to deal with defence properly with an EU army.

    The EU is slowly edging towards being a country (it's not far off) and in order to deal accountably with the budget they will need to have an elected president. this is the step that they've not been able to take but at some point the pressure will become unbearable
  • I will be fascinated to find out the details as to the specifics of these "technology lessons"...
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Alistair said:
    Has his sister not suggested that maybe there is even greater misconduct in a public office than this in that he is in hock to those who need no deal to protect their off shore tax free investments?
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Alistair said:
    lol - things being "wargamed" is beginning to have the tedious repetition of the phrase "Not being fit for purpose". I could live without either ever being utilised in political discourse again!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Alistair said:

    This was extensively wargamed by Cummings.

    Or not...

    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1177683393481515009
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    I think Dom's OODA loop got disrupted tonight...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928
    On topic,

    That was an interesting and thought provoking article, but it also raises some interesting questions.

    Dura Ace was very negative on the prospect of the UK defending Estonia from Russian invasion. He felt we would walk away from our NATO commitments rather than allow our citizens' blood to be spilled on the streets of Tallinn.

    And then there's: President Trump. Who does he personally like and admire more: the gaggle of European leaders of democracies, or autocratic Putin? Who would he be cheering on?

    In the normal world, the liberal* democracies of Asian and the West would have a shared interest in staring down hard men. And that forms the basis for institutions like NATO. But if countries like Estonia feel that they are unlikely to be protected by the US or the US in the event the Russian bear came growling, can you blame them for wanting to do something with their European peers?

    If I were sitting in Tallinn, I would be terrified by Trump and Putin. And I would also be terrified that the US was turning more insular (and that was a secular trend not a moment of madness), and that that would make the existing structures much less effective in preventing my invasion. I think I'd probably be encouraging the creation of a European army.

    Personally, I think the breakdown of NATO is probably inevitable, and will happen before there is any meaningful shared EU military cooperation. And there will be bloodshed somewhere in the East, as either Russia works out a way to get Kaliningrad integrated with the rest of the country, or moves to protect native Russians somewhere in the Baltics.

    And the US will end up getting involved in the end - but the cost of its involvement (both to its self and to the world), will be much higher than if it had continued to act as a detterent.

    * I use that in the broadest sense, meaning capitalist, puralist, human rights loving, democracies
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Hmm, BMW workers do not seem to be following Dom's Cumming plan.

    https://twitter.com/COdendahl/status/1177495526423420928?s=19
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1177683393481515009?s=19

    For 'balance'
    Also states gov says due process has not been followed and timing is nakedly political

    Make of that what you will. Let's see if an investigation is begun.. if it goes policey then tittle tattle will have to stay out of the papers
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    RobD said:
    Judges to send letter if Boris wont
  • Foxy said:

    Hmm, BMW workers do not seem to be following Dom's Cumming plan.

    https://twitter.com/COdendahl/status/1177495526423420928?s=19

    Maybe not, but if YouGov are right British voters are. How many votes in the next GE will German BMW workers have?
  • https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1177683393481515009?s=19

    For 'balance'
    Also states gov says due process has not been followed and timing is nakedly political

    Make of that what you will. Let's see if an investigation is begun.. if it goes policey then tittle tattle will have to stay out of the papers

    It would take a heart of stone not to laugh at that whinge.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    I will be fascinated to find out the details as to the specifics of these "technology lessons"...

    Have you eaten yet the details might not be pleasant
  • When you create institutional divisions, the divides tend to widen as a natural consequence. Atomising the component parts of the natural security alliance of the West

    I'm confused by this part. If the EU Army comes apart then the members of NATO will be reduced in number from the present 29 to the following 9:
    US
    Canada
    UK (assuming we leave, and remain out of, the EU)
    Norway
    Turkey
    Iceland
    Montenegro
    Albania
    European Union
    And possibly only 7 if Montenegro and Albania realise their ambitions to join the EU)

    Surely this would be a much less atomised alliance, with fewer institutional divisions, than the present arrangement? Indeed one of the main criticisms of the European members of NATO is that by being split up into individual armies (and navies and air forces), with their separate command structures and procurement strategies, etc, that their combined effectiveness is much less than the money spent (even if that money is also criticised as being insufficient).

    The only reason for supposing that an EU army might split NATO would be if leaving NATO were made a condition of forming an EU army by those EU countries that are not in NATO, in particular the declared neutral countries Ireland and Austria.

    However, it seems much more likely that either those countries will stand aside from the formation of the EU army (or even that they will drop their neutrality) then that they will cause all the NATO EU countries to leave.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1177683393481515009?s=19

    For 'balance'
    Also states gov says due process has not been followed and timing is nakedly political

    Make of that what you will. Let's see if an investigation is begun.. if it goes policey then tittle tattle will have to stay out of the papers

    It would take a heart of stone not to laugh at that whinge.
    Its barely concealed pissed offness for sure
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,794

    viewcode said:

    Tabman said:

    FPT

    AndyJS said:

    nichomar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Logging on to PB for the first time this evening. Has anything important happened in the last few hours?

    No but the Telly is shit at the moment
    There's always Top of the Pops 1988 on BBC4.
    Presumably edited down to about nine minutes?
    Due to sundry unperson DJs?

    OTOH 1988 was the year of Rick Astley
    Oh God, 1988. Everybody was on Ecstasy and the music showed it. Not good. Still, I assume some remember it fondly.
    1988 had some seminal releases by REM, NWA, Public Enemy, Bad Religion, Metallica, Sonic Youth...but I don't think most of those got invited on Top of the Pops that often.
    Oh, the Americans! Yes, fair point. I was thinking of the Brits, who did rather lose their way. Industrial unrest and political upheaval gets you Joy Division. Leaps in technology gets you Gary Numan, Human League and New Order. Sexualty and gender got you Soft Cell and Culture Club. Bust gets you The Specials, Boom gets you Duran Duran. Even synthpop got you Erasure. But get everybody on MDMA and you get...S bloody Express and whiny Mancs. You had to wait for the Shamen and Utah Saints before things got interesting again.

    Still, at least there was T'Pau. Who were great. Fight me.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1177683393481515009?s=19

    For 'balance'
    Also states gov says due process has not been followed and timing is nakedly political

    Make of that what you will. Let's see if an investigation is begun.. if it goes policey then tittle tattle will have to stay out of the papers

    It would take a heart of stone not to laugh at that whinge.
    https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellMP/status/1177681160551436289?s=19

  • https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1177683393481515009?s=19

    For 'balance'
    Also states gov says due process has not been followed and timing is nakedly political

    Make of that what you will. Let's see if an investigation is begun.. if it goes policey then tittle tattle will have to stay out of the papers

    It would take a heart of stone not to laugh at that whinge.
    You're a strong advocate for due process when it suits you i.e. when it's advantageous to the remain cause. Just another hypocrite.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    It would take a heart of stone not to laugh at that whinge.

    It is deliciously whiny...

    "These bastards aren't playing by my rules..."

    Hi Dom :)
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1177683393481515009?s=19

    For 'balance'
    Also states gov says due process has not been followed and timing is nakedly political

    Make of that what you will. Let's see if an investigation is begun.. if it goes policey then tittle tattle will have to stay out of the papers

    It would take a heart of stone not to laugh at that whinge.
    https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellMP/status/1177681160551436289?s=19

    The current monitoring officer started working at the GLA during Boris Johnson’s time as mayor .
  • Interesting thread header but overlooking one small point.

    NATO has realistically typically been the USA, UK, sometimes France and then assorted odds and ends . . . with German and Scandinavian and others soil to base the real troops in not them sending the troops. Once the UK leaves the EU, there is little real effective difference between saying France and saying the EU as far as NATO's firepower is concerned and France was always a semi-detached member of NATO anyway.
  • Scott_P said:
    I am clearly missing something but...

    What does "petition to nob off" mean? "We humbly petition the Prime Minister to nob off?"
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,114
    viewcode said:

    Tabman said:

    FPT

    AndyJS said:

    nichomar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Logging on to PB for the first time this evening. Has anything important happened in the last few hours?

    No but the Telly is shit at the moment
    There's always Top of the Pops 1988 on BBC4.
    Presumably edited down to about nine minutes?
    Due to sundry unperson DJs?

    OTOH 1988 was the year of Rick Astley
    Oh God, 1988. Everybody was on Ecstasy and the music showed it. Not good. Still, I assume some remember it fondly.
    Funnily enough my wife asked me earlier this evening if I would still take recreational fillips knowing what I know now...and I answered without delay..obviously yes...those nights, those weekends of hedonistic, drug fuelled happiness when you are young, energetic and beautiful and surrounded by likeminded hedonists....who wouldn't?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    Scott_P said:
    I am clearly missing something but...

    What does "petition to nob off" mean? "We humbly petition the Prime Minister to nob off?"
    Nobile officium . They could have worded it better !
  • rcs1000 said:

    On topic,

    That was an interesting and thought provoking article, but it also raises some interesting questions.

    Dura Ace was very negative on the prospect of the UK defending Estonia from Russian invasion. He felt we would walk away from our NATO commitments rather than allow our citizens' blood to be spilled on the streets of Tallinn.

    And then there's: President Trump. Who does he personally like and admire more: the gaggle of European leaders of democracies, or autocratic Putin? Who would he be cheering on?

    In the normal world, the liberal* democracies of Asian and the West would have a shared interest in staring down hard men. And that forms the basis for institutions like NATO. But if countries like Estonia feel that they are unlikely to be protected by the US or the US in the event the Russian bear came growling, can you blame them for wanting to do something with their European peers?

    If I were sitting in Tallinn, I would be terrified by Trump and Putin. And I would also be terrified that the US was turning more insular (and that was a secular trend not a moment of madness), and that that would make the existing structures much less effective in preventing my invasion. I think I'd probably be encouraging the creation of a European army.

    Personally, I think the breakdown of NATO is probably inevitable, and will happen before there is any meaningful shared EU military cooperation. And there will be bloodshed somewhere in the East, as either Russia works out a way to get Kaliningrad integrated with the rest of the country, or moves to protect native Russians somewhere in the Baltics.

    And the US will end up getting involved in the end - but the cost of its involvement (both to its self and to the world), will be much higher than if it had continued to act as a detterent.

    * I use that in the broadest sense, meaning capitalist, puralist, human rights loving, democracies

    An excellent post but it pre-dates Trump too.

    The USA has been moving away from the Atlantic and away from Europe as the theatre that interests it. The Cold War was won and the USSR is no longer the threat it was. Putin may be a threat to Estonia but he is no threat to the USA in the way that Stalin was.

    The USA is far, far more concerned with the Pacific now. Both Bush Jr and Obama reorientated troops and resources from the Atlantic to the Pacific and Trump is merely continuing that trend. And Trump's successor will continue that trend.
  • When you create institutional divisions, the divides tend to widen as a natural consequence. Atomising the component parts of the natural security alliance of the West

    I'm confused by this part. If the EU Army comes apart to pass then....
    I think I must be coming down with something.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,114
    Matt Hancock on 4 this evening...

    When the Nazis were doing their nihilistic nonsense...they needed plenty of Hancocks..careerist, small minded, dweebs who could do their dirty work,,,,
  • RobD said:
    Judges to send letter if Boris wont
    Doesn't that get Boris off the hook? He can rail against the Remainers in Parliament and say it shows why he needs a majority and show that he never sent the letter.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Tabman said:

    FPT

    AndyJS said:

    nichomar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Logging on to PB for the first time this evening. Has anything important happened in the last few hours?

    No but the Telly is shit at the moment
    There's always Top of the Pops 1988 on BBC4.
    Presumably edited down to about nine minutes?
    Due to sundry unperson DJs?

    OTOH 1988 was the year of Rick Astley
    Oh God, 1988. Everybody was on Ecstasy and the music showed it. Not good. Still, I assume some remember it fondly.
    1988 had some seminal releases by REM, NWA, Public Enemy, Bad Religion, Metallica, Sonic Youth...but I don't think most of those got invited on Top of the Pops that often.
    Oh, the Americans! Yes, fair point. I was thinking of the Brits, who did rather lose their way. Industrial unrest and political upheaval gets you Joy Division. Leaps in technology gets you Gary Numan, Human League and New Order. Sexualty and gender got you Soft Cell and Culture Club. Bust gets you The Specials, Boom gets you Duran Duran. Even synthpop got you Erasure. But get everybody on MDMA and you get...S bloody Express and whiny Mancs. You had to wait for the Shamen and Utah Saints before things got interesting again.

    Still, at least there was T'Pau. Who were great. Fight me.
    There were some chinks in the gloom ... PSB's "Only on my mind". OK it was a Cover. And so was Bomb the Bass's "Say a little prayer for you". OK, another cover. But 1989's "Mind Bomb" by the peerless Matt Johnson's The The was a tour de force, and highly prescient. Check this out for example.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928
    spudgfsh said:

    On topic, EU countries are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. They’re encouraged by the US to put more into defence and then if they work together to do just that, the Eurosceptics come out in hives. If they want to work together, why shouldn’t they?

    At some point the EU will have to tackle some of the budget issues with the CAP in order to deal with defence properly with an EU army.

    The EU is slowly edging towards being a country (it's not far off) and in order to deal accountably with the budget they will need to have an elected president. this is the step that they've not been able to take but at some point the pressure will become unbearable
    Interestingly, the CAP budget is almost identical to UK military spending :smile:
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928

    Interesting thread header but overlooking one small point.

    NATO has realistically typically been the USA, UK, sometimes France and then assorted odds and ends . . . with German and Scandinavian and others soil to base the real troops in not them sending the troops. Once the UK leaves the EU, there is little real effective difference between saying France and saying the EU as far as NATO's firepower is concerned and France was always a semi-detached member of NATO anyway.

    That's a fair point.

  • RobD said:
    Judges to send letter if Boris wont
    Doesn't that get Boris off the hook? He can rail against the Remainers in Parliament and say it shows why he needs a majority and show that he never sent the letter.
    Yes, and it gets Remainers in the Commons off the hook, because they don't have to make Corbyn PM.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Like the sudden emergence of Trudeau's "blackface photos" just before the Canadian election, it does seem curious that Boris' alleged offence is being investigated only now?

    Still, let's see what & see what emerges.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928
    On topic, I was amused to read about Donald Trump's fury when he discovered the Germans were going to raise their military spending. But they were going to spend it on troops, rather than simply hand the money to the US (or US weapons manufacturers).

    Be careful of what you wish for.
  • RobD said:
    Judges to send letter if Boris wont
    Previous, broke, thread: The Supreme Court can't over-rule statute
    New, woke thread: They can take on the powers of the PM if they feel like it though.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    tyson said:

    viewcode said:

    Tabman said:

    FPT

    AndyJS said:

    nichomar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Logging on to PB for the first time this evening. Has anything important happened in the last few hours?

    No but the Telly is shit at the moment
    There's always Top of the Pops 1988 on BBC4.
    Presumably edited down to about nine minutes?
    Due to sundry unperson DJs?

    OTOH 1988 was the year of Rick Astley
    Oh God, 1988. Everybody was on Ecstasy and the music showed it. Not good. Still, I assume some remember it fondly.
    Funnily enough my wife asked me earlier this evening if I would still take recreational fillips knowing what I know now...and I answered without delay..obviously yes...those nights, those weekends of hedonistic, drug fuelled happiness when you are young, energetic and beautiful and surrounded by likeminded hedonists....who wouldn't?
    Hell yeah, I was young, gorgeous, high as a kite, drunk as a skunk and wasn't often lonely. Then suddenly I'm disabled, middle aged, fat and useless.
    I'd have missed this step out of life if I'd been God. Feckin waste.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828

    RobD said:
    Judges to send letter if Boris wont
    Doesn't that get Boris off the hook? He can rail against the Remainers in Parliament and say it shows why he needs a majority and show that he never sent the letter.
    Good point, although there might be some downsides to him ignoring the law!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    nico67 said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1177683393481515009?s=19

    For 'balance'
    Also states gov says due process has not been followed and timing is nakedly political

    Make of that what you will. Let's see if an investigation is begun.. if it goes policey then tittle tattle will have to stay out of the papers

    It would take a heart of stone not to laugh at that whinge.
    https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellMP/status/1177681160551436289?s=19

    The current monitoring officer started working at the GLA during Boris Johnson’s time as mayor .
    Sounds like straight up @Cyclefree 's tree...
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    RobD said:
    Judges to send letter if Boris wont
    Previous, broke, thread: The Supreme Court can't over-rule statute
    New, woke thread: They can take on the powers of the PM if they feel like it though.
    Fun our system innit
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    RobD said:

    RobD said:
    Judges to send letter if Boris wont
    Doesn't that get Boris off the hook? He can rail against the Remainers in Parliament and say it shows why he needs a majority and show that he never sent the letter.
    Good point, although there might be some downsides to him ignoring the law!
    Lock him up! Lock him up! Lock him up!
  • Scott_P said:
    I had no idea "nob off" was an expression in Scots Law. It's refreshingly succinct. Would it be safe to assume the Norman-French equivalent in English law would be "encoule vous"?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic,

    That was an interesting and thought provoking article, but it also raises some interesting questions.

    Dura Ace was very negative on the prospect of the UK defending Estonia from Russian invasion. He felt we would walk away from our NATO commitments rather than allow our citizens' blood to be spilled on the streets of Tallinn.

    And then there's: President Trump. Who does he personally like and admire more: the gaggle of European leaders of democracies, or autocratic Putin? Who would he be cheering on?

    In the normal world, the liberal* democracies of Asian and the West would have a shared interest in staring down hard men. And that forms the basis for institutions like NATO. But if countries like Estonia feel that they are unlikely to be protected by the US or the US in the event the Russian bear came growling, can you blame them for wanting to do something with their European peers?

    If I were sitting in Tallinn, I would be terrified by Trump and Putin. And I would also be terrified that the US was turning more insular (and that was a secular trend not a moment of madness), and that that would make the existing structures much less effective in preventing my invasion. I think I'd probably be encouraging the creation of a European army.

    Personally, I think the breakdown of NATO is probably inevitable, and will happen before there is any meaningful shared EU military cooperation. And there will be bloodshed somewhere in the East, as either Russia works out a way to get Kaliningrad integrated with the rest of the country, or moves to protect native Russians somewhere in the Baltics.

    And the US will end up getting involved in the end - but the cost of its involvement (both to its self and to the world), will be much higher than if it had continued to act as a detterent.

    * I use that in the broadest sense, meaning capitalist, puralist, human rights loving, democracies

    An excellent post but it pre-dates Trump too.

    The USA has been moving away from the Atlantic and away from Europe as the theatre that interests it. The Cold War was won and the USSR is no longer the threat it was. Putin may be a threat to Estonia but he is no threat to the USA in the way that Stalin was.

    The USA is far, far more concerned with the Pacific now. Both Bush Jr and Obama reorientated troops and resources from the Atlantic to the Pacific and Trump is merely continuing that trend. And Trump's successor will continue that trend.
    The US has been orienting towards the Pacific. But I feel sure that George W would have stood up for Estonia, and even Obama organised NATO exercises with US troops in the Baltics.

    Silver Arrow, which is going on right now in Latvia, simulates a NATO response to Russian invasion. The Canadians are there (along with the Europeans). The US is not.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    nico67 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I am clearly missing something but...

    What does "petition to nob off" mean? "We humbly petition the Prime Minister to nob off?"
    Nobile officium . They could have worded it better !
    "Nobile officium The noble office or duty of the Court of Session. An equitable jurisdiction in virtue of which the court may, within limits, mitigate the strictness of the law and provide a legal remedy where none exists."

    Yep, that's as clear as mud. Thanks!
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The Scottish Court case could help Bozo by sending the letter so he avoids that , however I think he’d already be found in contempt of court before that .

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360
    Nice to see Forest top of the Championship. Briefly!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,794
    tyson said:

    viewcode said:

    Tabman said:

    FPT

    AndyJS said:

    nichomar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Logging on to PB for the first time this evening. Has anything important happened in the last few hours?

    No but the Telly is shit at the moment
    There's always Top of the Pops 1988 on BBC4.
    Presumably edited down to about nine minutes?
    Due to sundry unperson DJs?

    OTOH 1988 was the year of Rick Astley
    Oh God, 1988. Everybody was on Ecstasy and the music showed it. Not good. Still, I assume some remember it fondly.
    Funnily enough my wife asked me earlier this evening if I would still take recreational fillips knowing what I know now...and I answered without delay..obviously yes...those nights, those weekends of hedonistic, drug fuelled happiness when you are young, energetic and beautiful and surrounded by likeminded hedonists....who wouldn't?
    My experience with drugs[1] makes Julie Andrews look like Sid Vicious, so I apologise in advance. But it seems like drugs that make you happy make the music worse, but drugs that fuck you up make the music better. Heroin, cocaine, alcohol: trauma, drive, great music. Cannabis, Benzodiazapines, Ecstasy: dull, dull, dull, whiny, dull

    [1] the illegal ones at least... :( Grey-area or prescribed, we're basically experts at this point... :(
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Nice to see Forest top of the Championship. Briefly!

    Before their customary post Christmas losing streak.
  • viewcode said:

    tyson said:

    viewcode said:

    Tabman said:

    FPT

    AndyJS said:

    nichomar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Logging on to PB for the first time this evening. Has anything important happened in the last few hours?

    No but the Telly is shit at the moment
    There's always Top of the Pops 1988 on BBC4.
    Presumably edited down to about nine minutes?
    Due to sundry unperson DJs?

    OTOH 1988 was the year of Rick Astley
    Oh God, 1988. Everybody was on Ecstasy and the music showed it. Not good. Still, I assume some remember it fondly.
    Funnily enough my wife asked me earlier this evening if I would still take recreational fillips knowing what I know now...and I answered without delay..obviously yes...those nights, those weekends of hedonistic, drug fuelled happiness when you are young, energetic and beautiful and surrounded by likeminded hedonists....who wouldn't?
    My experience with drugs[1] makes Julie Andrews look like Sid Vicious, so I apologise in advance. But it seems like drugs that make you happy make the music worse, but drugs that fuck you up make the music better. Heroin, cocaine, alcohol: trauma, drive, great music. Cannabis, Benzodiazapines, Ecstasy: dull, dull, dull, whiny, dull

    [1] the illegal ones at least... :( Grey-area or prescribed, we're basically experts at this point... :(
    I recall a college friend, having spent a king's ransom on LSD, walking round my room for two hours screaming "it's not working, it's not working".
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Interesting header, MD. Trump complains Europeans don't pull their weight, although he seems to want money rather than military input. On the other hand, be doesn't seem particularly interested in the NATO alliance.
This discussion has been closed.