It changed me supporting the UK staying in the Single Market to supporting Brexit, deal or no deal. So I see no reason it shouldn't have changed him too.
"Boris Johnson revealed his support for the European Union’s single market in “a pro-European” letter written the year before he decided to campaign for leave, it has emerged.
The likely prime minister’s pro-EU market sympathies were said to be revealed in a letter of condolence to the wife of the late Tory politician Sir Leon Brittan, who died in January 2015.
An account of the letter, shared with the Guardian, underscores Johnson’s lifelong equivocation over Britain’s EU membership"
"The letter came across as “a pro-European letter” in praise of the British commissioner and his efforts to uphold the single market, Peter Guilford, a former spokesman for Brittan who knew both men well, recalled.
“It came across as a very pro-Leon Brittan letter, in which Leon was defending the single market and competition within the single market, which Britain is now trying to leave,” Guilford told the Guardian."
He showed respect while writing a letter of condolence? What a monster!
January 2015 was before the EU rejected all reform too btw.
<< Karl Turner, the Labour MP for Hull East and a shadow minister, confronted Dominic Cummings in Westminster today. Footage of the incident, posted online by the BBC, showed Turner criticising the prime minister’s inflammatory tone and telling Cummings: “I’ve had death threats overnight; ‘should be dead’.”
Cummings responds: “Get Brexit done.” >>
Extraordinary. We are at a point where the most senior unelected official in the country is insinuating that violence and intimidation is merely the correct momentum to get things done.
No challenge to this whatsoever from the 80 stoney-faced Tory MP's so far.
Its not the correct momentum, its the natural outcome for saying that you will turn your back on democracy and refuse to implement what people voted for though. People warned about this years ago and were laughed at.
You don't get to say democracy doesn't work, your vote doesn't count, I lost the vote but I know better . . . and expect civil discourse afterwards.
In saying "Get Brexit Done", he doesn't distinguish between natural or correct momentum. It's just an order, implicitly supported by violence.
<< Karl Turner, the Labour MP for Hull East and a shadow minister, confronted Dominic Cummings in Westminster today. Footage of the incident, posted online by the BBC, showed Turner criticising the prime minister’s inflammatory tone and telling Cummings: “I’ve had death threats overnight; ‘should be dead’.”
Cummings responds: “Get Brexit done.” >>
Extraordinary. We are at a point where the most senior unelected official in the country is insinuating that violence and intimidation is merely the correct momentum to get things done.
No challenge to this whatsoever from the 80 stoney-faced Tory MP's so far.
Its not the correct momentum, its the natural outcome for saying that you will turn your back on democracy and refuse to implement what people voted for though. People warned about this years ago and were laughed at.
You don't get to say democracy doesn't work, your vote doesn't count, I lost the vote but I know better . . . and expect civil discourse afterwards.
In saying "Get Brexit Done", he doesn't distinguish between natural or correct momentum. It's just an order, implicitly supported by violence.
Absolutely it is an order. It is an order given by 17.4 million voters.
<< Karl Turner, the Labour MP for Hull East and a shadow minister, confronted Dominic Cummings in Westminster today. Footage of the incident, posted online by the BBC, showed Turner criticising the prime minister’s inflammatory tone and telling Cummings: “I’ve had death threats overnight; ‘should be dead’.”
Cummings responds: “Get Brexit done.” >>
Extraordinary. We are at a point where the most senior unelected official in the country is insinuating that violence and intimidation is merely the correct momentum to get things done.
No challenge to this whatsoever from the 80 stoney-faced Tory MP's so far.
What was the referendum result in Turner's constituency? And in what way has he voted to carry out their wishes?
The thing with that is that Boris can say he has informed HMQ that he "regrets any embarrassment caused to Her Majesty by the wrongful interpretation of the law by the Supreme Court ". The Palace can't answer back and that's that box ticked.
How naive of you.
You might recall over the last week a certain "Call Me Dave Cameron" has his bollocks handed to him by the palace without Brenda saying one word.
As we have already established HMQ would never contradict or disagree with a PM in public. Cameron isn't PM. She can hand him as many bollocks as he can grow.
In saying "Get Brexit Done", he doesn't distinguish between natural or correct momentum. It's just an order, implicitly supported by violence.
Absolutely it is an order. It is an order given by 17.4 million voters.
QED.
What's your point?
Implementing democracy is non-optional. If it becomes optional democracy dies and violence will be the order of the day as it is in ALL non-democracies throughout history.
Democracy is the only peaceful way to settle our differences and the losers in Parliament seeking to obstruct democracy are playing with fire. The only honourable course for a remainer MP is to get Brexit done then campaign to rejoin.
I have been out today. Would someone on here who has been following Parliament please tell me which MP has actually DONE something to resolve the crisis. I am not interested in virtue signalling, faux outrage or whining. I mean actual work to achieve a result. If the answer is nobody then as far as I am concerned they may as well go the way of the Northern Ireland Assembly-closure on full pay.
I, an idiot: Impeaching Trump will be good for the Democarts You, a genius: What a huge blunder, impeaching Trump will only solidify Trump's base and completely destroy the Democrats electoral chances
What I don't get is the final line. Is that saying that 4 in 10 of those who think he should be impeached don't think or don't know whether he committed an impeachable offence but should be impeached anyway?
The Number of Republicans wanting to impeach Trump doubled!
Due to the infuriating habit of American News organisations rarely releasing the raw poll results it's hard to know what they mean by that last line but I think, from reading the article, is that that 59% is the primary reason given for impeachment, 37% think he should be impeached simply for being crap at the job.
Leaving 4% who want him impeached for misc reasons.
For all the hysterical blustering one fact remains.
The opposition parties could bring down the government tomorrow and install Corbyn as PM to deliver the extension request followed by an immediate GE.
If the country is in such grave danger why are they not taking this action?
1 they want Johnson to have to do it because it is a problem of his own making 2 I would trust corbyn as much as I trust Johnson to do the right thing
The way out is for Johnson who wants an election to seek an extension to morrow which when granted will allow him to seek a GE which could take place in October, what is wrong with that? Problem solved everybody gets what the want after all a 10% in time extension of article 50 is neither here or there to ant body without paranoid fears.
Johnson is not going to extend as it will destroy him. It is like asking him to sit in an electric chair and turn on the switch himself.
Which is why everyone is going to do everything possible to make sure Boris can't duck out of a mess of his own making when back in June he promised we would leave on October 31st.
Except Boris's and the Conservatives polling keeps rising and Labour's is flatlining at best since they took this path?
I still can't get my brain around the idea that an actual supporter of Brexit would vote for the Brexit Party where it risked denying the Tories and giving the Labour Party an MP. Not when faced with an actual ballot paper rather than an opinion pollster. But having said that, if Johnson can't squeeze the Brexit Party vote any more than this and there's a reasonable amount of tactical voting, aren't the Tories toast?
It changed me supporting the UK staying in the Single Market to supporting Brexit, deal or no deal. So I see no reason it shouldn't have changed him too.
"Boris Johnson revealed his support for the European Union’s single market in “a pro-European” letter written the year before he decided to campaign for leave, it has emerged.
The likely prime minister’s pro-EU market sympathies were said to be revealed in a letter of condolence to the wife of the late Tory politician Sir Leon Brittan, who died in January 2015.
An account of the letter, shared with the Guardian, underscores Johnson’s lifelong equivocation over Britain’s EU membership"
"The letter came across as “a pro-European letter” in praise of the British commissioner and his efforts to uphold the single market, Peter Guilford, a former spokesman for Brittan who knew both men well, recalled.
“It came across as a very pro-Leon Brittan letter, in which Leon was defending the single market and competition within the single market, which Britain is now trying to leave,” Guilford told the Guardian."
He showed respect while writing a letter of condolence? What a monster!
January 2015 was before the EU rejected all reform too btw.
The Government has accepted the SC ruling and has attended Parliament accordingly. The Government is perfectly entitled to say it disagrees with the SC's judgement as indeed is any loser in any court case.
We are moving from outrage at words spoken last night (some very valid some utterly confected) to a whipping up of anti anger anger. It's not going to help, it's going to Inflame things further. They need to sit down together and talk this out, the sort of moron that would make a death threat is the sort of moron that will make it when he hears that it's a 'thing' in the current climate. Report to police and step back from the outrage and anger to some sort of conciliation and positive action. The domestic violence bill next week is a chance for the house to show itself working together for good.
Also for the laughs "But significantly he suggested that a no vote might not necessarily result in the UK pulling out of the EU altogether instead, creating a “new relationship based upon trade and cooperation”. What the hell happened to that thought I wonder.
@isam glad to hear that you disown Johnson and his comments of yesterday and all of the people suggesting that the lack of delivery of Brexit by MPs is to blame for the people threatening the lives of these MPs their staff and their children. .I gladly withdraw and apologise for any suggestion that you were providing support or succour in any way to his disgusting comments.
@nichomar I had to Google it. You copy and paste a code off the website the search finds. I have a LD flag and an LGBT flag. Other totems are available...
@SouthamObserver I have more in common with pragmatic sane MPs like Wollaston and Davey than I do with mentalists like Pidcock
No, putting more words in my mouth is not good enough. Obviously a straight apology is beyond you, we’ll leave it there
In saying "Get Brexit Done", he doesn't distinguish between natural or correct momentum. It's just an order, implicitly supported by violence.
Absolutely it is an order. It is an order given by 17.4 million voters.
QED.
What's your point?
Implementing democracy is non-optional. If it becomes optional democracy dies and violence will be the order of the day as it is in ALL non-democracies throughout history.
Democracy is the only peaceful way to settle our differences and the losers in Parliament seeking to obstruct democracy are playing with fire. The only honourable course for a remainer MP is to get Brexit done then campaign to rejoin.
There are so many problems with this it's difficult to know where to start.
1) An advisory referendum, allowed through on margins excluded in other parts of Europe, and with lax campaign rules also not allowed in many other developed nations, is not the beginning and end of the British democratic principle.
2) This plebiscitary advisory democracy and parliamentary democracy are not easily reconcilable. The members of the Brexit-legislating party themelves have been unable to agree, between themselves and even amongst Brexit supporters only, even, how this should be implemented. This is not a fault of the parliamentary system itself, but of the governing party's short-sightedness.
3) Democracy is never a static process. Referendums are regularly overturned when people's views and evidence change. If permanent democracy rather than unconditional victory were the real goal, Brexiters should have no problem with a further referendum after three years, if that is guaranteed to be the final say.
4) The rule of law seeks to be imposed by force rather than disorganised violence. The progress from law enforced by banditry to law enforced by organised force is part of the evolution of the rule of law itself.
For all the hysterical blustering one fact remains.
The opposition parties could bring down the government tomorrow and install Corbyn as PM to deliver the extension request followed by an immediate GE.
If the country is in such grave danger why are they not taking this action?
1 they want Johnson to have to do it because it is a problem of his own making 2 I would trust corbyn as much as I trust Johnson to do the right thing
The way out is for Johnson who wants an election to seek an extension to morrow which when granted will allow him to seek a GE which could take place in October, what is wrong with that? Problem solved everybody gets what the want after all a 10% in time extension of article 50 is neither here or there to ant body without paranoid fears.
Johnson is not going to extend as it will destroy him. It is like asking him to sit in an electric chair and turn on the switch himself.
Which is why everyone is going to do everything possible to make sure Boris can't duck out of a mess of his own making when back in June he promised we would leave on October 31st.
Except Boris's and the Conservatives polling keeps rising and Labour's is flatlining at best since they took this path?
I still can't get my brain around the idea that an actual supporter of Brexit would vote for the Brexit Party where it risked denying the Tories and giving the Labour Party an MP. Not when faced with an actual ballot paper rather than an opinion pollster. But having said that, if Johnson can't squeeze the Brexit Party vote any more than this and there's a reasonable amount of tactical voting, aren't the Tories toast?
Why can’t you imagine a TBP supporter voting in a counterproductive Way?
Yeah, respondents wanting impeachment were given two choices. "CRIMES" or "Shit at Job" for the reason.
Have Rasmussen polled on impeachment?
I'm keeping my power dry on this subject until the gold standard of American polling have polled on this topic.
I've had a sneak preview of their polling. I can't reveal anything obviously but I will say an unprecedented 101% of the American people Exonerate Trump. 98% Say Greatest President of All Time 2% refused to Answer.
The thing with that is that Boris can say he has informed HMQ that he "regrets any embarrassment caused to Her Majesty by the wrongful interpretation of the law by the Supreme Court ". The Palace can't answer back and that's that box ticked.
How naive of you.
You might recall over the last week a certain "Call Me Dave Cameron" has his bollocks handed to him by the palace without Brenda saying one word.
As we have already established HMQ would never contradict or disagree with a PM in public. Cameron isn't PM. She can hand him as many bollocks as he can grow.
But apologies for the hypothetical scenario.
Retired or current PM would not be the issue. I refer you to the displeasure of the Queen to the "Great She Elephant" when in Mrs T's pomp the US invaded the Commonwealth nation of Grenada.
If Boris takes on the Palace there will only be one winner and it will not be the "Buffoon In Residence" at 10 Downing Street.
John Major's government received the highest ever vote in 1992. Perhaps all subsequent elected governments were undemocratic because they received a smaller number of votes...
Have you really joined the LDs, Comrade? Serious food for thought!!
Yes Joff I have.
Good on you. Have you met your fellow constituency members yet? I am still debating whether or not I should take the plunge. I am very clear I’m a social democrat and I am not sure I can legitimately share a party with Liberals and Tory wets who, however much I like and admire them in many ways, fundamentally see the world differently to me.
I’m a social democrat Lib Dem of the Charles Kennedy, Tim Farron, Layla Moran school. I don’t see the internal coalition of the party as any broader than the Labour or Conservative parties - arguably the opposite: there’s less distance from Chuka & Layla to Sarah Wollaston & Sam Gyimah than there is from, say, Rory Stewart to Priti Patel. What encourages me most is that 90% of my fellow constituency activists are thoughtful, generous, and committed to their local communities.
As I've repeatedly pointed out the Gov't doesn't have the numbers to prevent any sort of ambush. They just need to leave Cash, Chope and Davies in there to talk the hind legs off a donkey about any sort of opposition attempt to install Bercow as chief EU poobah which they'd lose regardless of whether they were there or not.
John Major's government received the highest ever vote in 1992. Perhaps all subsequent elected governments were undemocratic because they received a smaller number of votes...
Have you really joined the LDs, Comrade? Serious food for thought!!
Yes Joff I have.
Good on you. Have you met your fellow constituency members yet? I am still debating whether or not I should take the plunge. I am very clear I’m a social democrat and I am not sure I can legitimately share a party with Liberals and Tory wets who, however much I like and admire them in many ways, fundamentally see the world differently to me.
I’m a social democrat Lib Dem of the Charles Kennedy, Tim Farron, Layla Moran school. I don’t see the internal coalition of the party as any broader than the Labour or Conservative parties - arguably the opposite: there’s less distance from Chuka & Layla to Sarah Wollaston & Sam Gyimah than there is from, say, Rory Stewart to Priti Patel. What encourages me most is that 90% of my fellow constituency activists are thoughtful, generous, and committed to their local communities.
That last point is why most of us joined whilst being happy with the overall framework of the political philosophy it has always been think local act global
Also for the laughs "But significantly he suggested that a no vote might not necessarily result in the UK pulling out of the EU altogether instead, creating a “new relationship based upon trade and cooperation”. What the hell happened to that thought I wonder.
Sounds a bit unlikely. Surely Boris handpicked his cabinet to be No Deal puritans one and all. Presumably this is Dom attempting to instil yet another Brexit betrayal bogeyman - this time Boris's own government - into the public psyche.
Rather misses the point that it's the bluff that will force the compromise offer. Everything else is for show. A triumphant Boris brings a new, improved EU offer and a grateful parliament passes it (just)
For all the hysterical blustering one fact remains.
The opposition parties could bring down the government tomorrow and install Corbyn as PM to deliver the extension request followed by an immediate GE.
If the country is in such grave danger why are they not taking this action?
1 they want Johnson to have to do it because it is a problem of his own making 2 I would trust corbyn as much as I trust Johnson to do the right thing
The way out is for Johnson who wants an election to seek an extension to morrow which when granted will allow him to seek a GE which could take place in October, what is wrong with that? Problem solved everybody gets what the want after all a 10% in time extension of article 50 is neither here or there to ant body without paranoid fears.
Johnson is not going to extend as it will destroy him. It is like asking him to sit in an electric chair and turn on the switch himself.
Which is why everyone is going to do everything possible to make sure Boris can't duck out of a mess of his own making when back in June he promised we would leave on October 31st.
Except Boris's and the Conservatives polling keeps rising and Labour's is flatlining at best since they took this path?
Sounds a bit unlikely. Surely Boris handpicked his cabinet to be No Deal puritans one and all. Presumably this is Dom attempting to instil yet another Brexit betrayal bogeyman - this time Boris's own government - into the public psyche.
John Major's government received the highest ever vote in 1992. Perhaps all subsequent elected governments were undemocratic because they received a smaller number of votes...
Have you really joined the LDs, Comrade? Serious food for thought!!
Yes Joff I have.
Good on you. Have you met your fellow constituency members yet? I am still debating whether or not I should take the plunge. I am very clear I’m a social democrat and I am not sure I can legitimately share a party with Liberals and Tory wets who, however much I like and admire them in many ways, fundamentally see the world differently to me.
I’m a social democrat Lib Dem of the Charles Kennedy, Tim Farron, Layla Moran school. I don’t see the internal coalition of the party as any broader than the Labour or Conservative parties - arguably the opposite: there’s less distance from Chuka & Layla to Sarah Wollaston & Sam Gyimah than there is from, say, Rory Stewart to Priti Patel. What encourages me most is that 90% of my fellow constituency activists are thoughtful, generous, and committed to their local communities.
That last point is why most of us joined whilst being happy with the overall framework of the political philosophy it has always been think local act global
Thanks both, I have much to learn. Also very much an admirer of Kennedy (nearly did this in 2003). As a pragmatist utterly horrified by the zealotry that has taken over and sunk both the Tory and Labour parties i am happy to associate with all of the new LibDems and would be just as happy to see Rory Stewart and similar as well as Keir Starmer and similar also get on board. There has always been a smaller gap between the centre left and centre right than there is between the centre left and the far left.
Apparently it's OK to call me a fool for suggesting that 52% is a higher number than 30% though.
Oh well.
52% isn't a number 52 is a number.
Isn't 52%, 0.52?
52% is a percentage, a fraction with a standard denominator (duh!) whereas 0.52 is a decimal. Neither are integers nor natural numbers
A fraction with a standard denominator is spot on.
So 52% == 52 / 100 == 0.52.
52% is therefore a represntation of a real number. And is therefore a number.
Consider the alphanumeric keyboard. It has words, numbers and symbols. Therefore everything we input must be a combination of words, numbers, symbols. Therefore 52% is a number and a symbol.
The opposition now is almost at a point where it cant afford Boris to get a deal, wtf do they do if he gets it? Prove every suspicion about them right by blocking it and forcing an extension? Try and amend to get a referendum and pay the electoral price knowing a Tory majority will cancel the referendum?
It changed me supporting the UK staying in the Single Market to supporting Brexit, deal or no deal. So I see no reason it shouldn't have changed him too.
"Boris Johnson revealed his support for the European Union’s single market in “a pro-European” letter written the year before he decided to campaign for leave, it has emerged.
The likely prime minister’s pro-EU market sympathies were said to be revealed in a letter of condolence to the wife of the late Tory politician Sir Leon Brittan, who died in January 2015.
An account of the letter, shared with the Guardian, underscores Johnson’s lifelong equivocation over Britain’s EU membership"
"The letter came across as “a pro-European letter” in praise of the British commissioner and his efforts to uphold the single market, Peter Guilford, a former spokesman for Brittan who knew both men well, recalled.
“It came across as a very pro-Leon Brittan letter, in which Leon was defending the single market and competition within the single market, which Britain is now trying to leave,” Guilford told the Guardian."
He showed respect while writing a letter of condolence? What a monster!
January 2015 was before the EU rejected all reform too btw.
John Major's government received the highest ever vote in 1992. Perhaps all subsequent elected governments were undemocratic because they received a smaller number of votes...
Have you really joined the LDs, Comrade? Serious food for thought!!
Yes Joff I have.
Good on you. Have you met your fellow constituency members yet? I am still debating whether or not I should take the plunge. I am very clear I’m a social democrat and I am not sure I can legitimately share a party with Liberals and Tory wets who, however much I like and admire them in many ways, fundamentally see the world differently to me.
I’m a social democrat Lib Dem of the Charles Kennedy, Tim Farron, Layla Moran school. I don’t see the internal coalition of the party as any broader than the Labour or Conservative parties - arguably the opposite: there’s less distance from Chuka & Layla to Sarah Wollaston & Sam Gyimah than there is from, say, Rory Stewart to Priti Patel. What encourages me most is that 90% of my fellow constituency activists are thoughtful, generous, and committed to their local communities.
That last point is why most of us joined whilst being happy with the overall framework of the political philosophy it has always been think local act global
Thanks both, I have much to learn. Also very much an admirer of Kennedy (nearly did this in 2003). As a pragmatist utterly horrified by the zealotry that has taken over and sunk both the Tory and Labour parties i am happy to associate with all of the new LibDems and would be just as happy to see Rory Stewart and similar as well as Keir Starmer and similar also get on board. There has always been a smaller gap between the centre left and centre right than there is between the centre left and the far left.
I find the zealotry of the current lib dems equally horrific. What do they stand for, other than overturning the result - an overall majority - of the 2016 referendum?
The lib dems as they stand are basically the mirror image of the brexit party, a bunch of ultras who want their way without compromise, without consensus, without common sense.
And I say this as someone who actually quite liked the coalition era. But then again, I like consensus.
The opposition now is almost at a point where it cant afford Boris to get a deal, wtf do they do if he gets it? Prove every suspicion about them right by blocking it and forcing an extension? Try and amend to get a referendum and pay the electoral price knowing a Tory majority will cancel the referendum?
If they get a deal that the Tory party can get a majority for that fair enough, no body else should have to vote for it unless they believe it’s a good deal. It’s a Tory problem solve it
Oh and here's another way in which the PM is failing to uphold the law. And the A-G who should be advising him on the law is shirking his duty.
PM roused MPs against SC by asserting SC were wrong. Judges can’t defend themselves. Constitutional convention, now contained in Constitutional Reform Act 2005, requires govt ministers to defend judges to preserve judicial independence. PM is breaking that duty fundamentally.
It is not an attack on the judiciary to claim a court judgment is wrong. Did the Blair government, of which Charlie Falconer was Lord (high?) Chancellor, attack the HoL judges' independence when passing the 2006 Compensation Act to reverse Corus v Barker?
If so, he should resign...
Something wrong with the quoting. My response is below.
I've answered that point already.
The government changes the law all the time. That is not attacking the judiciary or its independence as you well know.
It might be my ellipsis mucking up the blockquotes.
I think we're making the same point. How is a govt supposed to change a law if it does not believe the existing law to be wrong? Whether it is the statutory tax rate on pasties, the split of damages in Corus or the justiciability of and judicial test for prorogation advice to HMQ, every new statute or SI starts with HMG forming the view that the existing law ain't quite all that. The 2006 Act wasn't an attack on the judges in Corus (one of whom was Lady Hale)
Knowing that, surely you can see that Falconer's assertion in his first sentence is wrong. Simply saying 'it's a wrong decision' is not an attack on the judiciary.
Following on to my earlier post if a deal does pass, the labour party is fooked. Boris gets the Brexit bounce, and no confidence just leads to election in which they get crushed. Very dangerous times for them which explains some if the spleen venting of Sheerman at al
For all the hysterical blustering one fact remains.
The opposition parties could bring down the government tomorrow and install Corbyn as PM to deliver the extension request followed by an immediate GE.
If the country is in such grave danger why are they not taking this action?
1 they want Johnson to have to do it because it is a problem of his own making 2 I would trust corbyn as much as I trust Johnson to do the right thing
The way out is for Johnson who wants an election to seek an extension to morrow which when granted will allow him to seek a GE which could take place in October, what is wrong with that? Problem solved everybody gets what the want after all a 10% in time extension of article 50 is neither here or there to ant body without paranoid fears.
Johnson is not going to extend as it will destroy him. It is like asking him to sit in an electric chair and turn on the switch himself.
Which is why everyone is going to do everything possible to make sure Boris can't duck out of a mess of his own making when back in June he promised we would leave on October 31st.
Except Boris's and the Conservatives polling keeps rising and Labour's is flatlining at best since they took this path?
Maybe showing the whole country that a Boris majority is the only way to get Brexit done wasn't the smartest move?
His support is not rising with Comres and Survation.
It needs at least 30 Labour MPs to vote for it to counter DUP and ERG opposition, not happening, unless the backstop is removed the Withdrawal Agreement will not pass the current Commons
In saying "Get Brexit Done", he doesn't distinguish between natural or correct momentum. It's just an order, implicitly supported by violence.
Absolutely it is an order. It is an order given by 17.4 million voters.
QED.
What's your point?
Implementing democracy is non-optional. If it becomes optional democracy dies and violence will be the order of the day as it is in ALL non-democracies throughout history.
Democracy is the only peaceful way to settle our differences and the losers in Parliament seeking to obstruct democracy are playing with fire. The only honourable course for a remainer MP is to get Brexit done then campaign to rejoin.
There are so many problems with this it's difficult to know where to start.
1) An advisory referendum, allowed through on margins excluded in other parts of Europe, and with lax campaign rules also not allowed in many other developed nations, is not the beginning and end of the British democratic principle.
2) This plebiscitary advisory democracy and parliamentary democracy are not easily reconcilable. The members of the Brexit-legislating party themelves have been unable to agree, between themselves and even amongst Brexit supporters only, even, how this should be implemented. This is not a fault of the parliamentary system itself, but of the governing party's short-sightedness.
3) Democracy is never a static process. Referendums are regularly overturned when people's views and evidence change. If permanent democracy rather than unconditional victory were the real goal, Brexiters should have no problem with a further referendum after three years, if that is guaranteed to be the final say.
4) The rule of law seeks to be imposed by force rather than disorganised violence. The progress from law enforced by banditry to law enforced by organised force is part of the evolution of the rule of law itself.
1. You are right it is not the end. Once we have left you can campaign to rejoin to your hearts content.
2. No it is a fault of Remainers in Parliament like Grieve who seek to obstruct any deal. If it wasn't for that then a form of Brexit could have been found, if not May's Deal then via the indicative votes.
3. You're right its not a static process. Again once we've left you can seek to rejoin. I have no objection to a further referendum after we have left.
4. Yes but who imposes the force? And who controls that? If not voters, then it will be very concerning.
John Major's government received the highest ever vote in 1992. Perhaps all subsequent elected governments were undemocratic because they received a smaller number of votes...
Have you really joined the LDs, Comrade? Serious food for thought!!
Yes Joff I have.
Good on you. Have you met your fellow constituency members yet? I am still debating whether or not I should take the plunge. I am very clear I’m a social democrat and I am not sure I can legitimately share a party with Liberals and Tory wets who, however much I like and admire them in many ways, fundamentally see the world differently to me.
I’m a social democrat Lib Dem of the Charles Kennedy, Tim Farron, Layla Moran school. I don’t see the internal coalition of the party as any broader than the Labour or Conservative parties - arguably the opposite: there’s less distance from Chuka & Layla to Sarah Wollaston & Sam Gyimah than there is from, say, Rory Stewart to Priti Patel. What encourages me most is that 90% of my fellow constituency activists are thoughtful, generous, and committed to their local communities.
That last point is why most of us joined whilst being happy with the overall framework of the political philosophy it has always been think local act global
Thanks both, I have much to learn. Also very much an admirer of Kennedy (nearly did this in 2003). As a pragmatist utterly horrified by the zealotry that has taken over and sunk both the Tory and Labour parties i am happy to associate with all of the new LibDems and would be just as happy to see Rory Stewart and similar as well as Keir Starmer and similar also get on board. There has always been a smaller gap between the centre left and centre right than there is between the centre left and the far left.
Join the lib dem newbies group on twitter with ‘000s of others giving each other mutual support as they get used to their new situation.
Perhaps this was Boris and Dom's secret plan all along. It would delivery on 31 Oct and avoid No Deal. Boris's enemies would be at first flummoxed and then plunged into despair. That must be why Boris and Dom are apparently so gay: they've got that killer trick up their sleeve.
The opposition now is almost at a point where it cant afford Boris to get a deal, wtf do they do if he gets it? Prove every suspicion about them right by blocking it and forcing an extension? Try and amend to get a referendum and pay the electoral price knowing a Tory majority will cancel the referendum?
If they get a deal that the Tory party can get a majority for that fair enough, no body else should have to vote for it unless they believe it’s a good deal. It’s a Tory problem solve it
How ridiculously partisan. Its not a Tory problem, 17.4 million didn't vote for the Tories - if they had we wouldn't be in this mess!
The country voted for Brexit not the Tories, Parliament should implement it.
Latest US 2020 general election poll from Ipsos/Reuters from 23rd to 24th September has it Biden 42% Trump 36%, Warren 41% Trump 39% (the same lead Hillary had when she lost the EC in 2016) and Trump 39% Sanders 38%.
Emerson from 21st to 23rd September has it Biden 50% Trump 49%, Warren 51% Trump 49%, Trump 51% Sanders 49%, Trump 52% Harris 48%.
The Cabinet Minister is wrong. It would be defeated by a greater margin than before. I doubt Remainers like Hammond will continue the pretence of wanting a deal, even one as super soft as that.
The Cabinet Minister is wrong. It would be defeated by a greater margin than before. I doubt Remainers like Hammond will continue the pretence of wanting a deal, even one as super soft as that.
Any deal that ends Freedom of Movement is not supersoft.
I find the zealotry of the current lib dems equally horrific. What do they stand for, other than overturning the result - an overall majority - of the 2016 referendum?
The lib dems as they stand are basically the mirror image of the brexit party, a bunch of ultras who want their way without compromise, without consensus, without common sense.
And I say this as someone who actually quite liked the coalition era. But then again, I like consensus.
If the Brexit Party win a majority that is a mandate for no deal. If the LibDems win a majority that is a mandate for revoke. Any government elected by a majority is the will of the people in that parliament. Democracy doesn't stop after a single vote- otherwise let's not bother removing Major in 1997 just because he's been demolished in a landslide - his 1992 mandate trumps 1997 and anyway he got more votes in that election that Blair in this.
Implementing democracy is non-optional. If it becomes optional democracy dies and violence will be the order of the day as it is in
1. You are right it is not the end. Once we have left you can campaign to rejoin to your hearts content.
2. No it is a fault of Remainers in Parliament like Grieve who seek to obstruct any deal. If it wasn't for that then a form of Brexit could have been found, if not May's Deal then via the indicative votes.
3. You're right its not a static process. Again once we've left you can seek to rejoin. I have no objection to a further referendum after we have left.
4. Yes but who imposes the force? And who controls that? If not voters, then it will be very concerning.
Grieve was not involved until a year and a half after the referendum, when May began to raise the prospect of no-deal. He acquiesced with multiple leave options, and did not seek to obstruct "any deal" . This is pure myth and propaganda, as any look through 2017 shows.
The rule of law in a democracy requires that force is imposed in an orderly way, subject to and under the examination of key representative institutions of that democracy, like parliament. Cummings impllcitly endorsing banditry and intimidation beyond either the organised forces of law and order, or the oversight of parliament, is nothing to do with this process.
The Cabinet Minister is wrong. It would be defeated by a greater margin than before. I doubt Remainers like Hammond will continue the pretence of wanting a deal, even one as super soft as that.
Equally Labour MPs might vote for it precisely because Boris is going through the no lobby.
Credit to Gina Miller on QT who has made a sensible and genuinely non-partisan point about decency and civility in Parliament.
The Cabinet Minister is wrong. It would be defeated by a greater margin than before. I doubt Remainers like Hammond will continue the pretence of wanting a deal, even one as super soft as that.
Its not soft. It does not include membership of the single market or the customs union outside the transition period.
@isam glad to hear that you disown Johnson and his comments of yesterday and all of the people suggesting that the lack of delivery of Brexit by MPs is to blame for the people threatening the lives of these MPs their staff and their children. .I gladly withdraw and apologise for any suggestion that you were providing support or succour in any way to his disgusting comments.
@nichomar I had to Google it. You copy and paste a code off the website the search finds. I have a LD flag and an LGBT flag. Other totems are available...
@SouthamObserver I have more in common with pragmatic sane MPs like Wollaston and Davey than I do with mentalists like Pidcock
No, putting more words in my mouth is not good enough. Obviously a straight apology is beyond you, we’ll leave it there
Dont be a pompous arse! learn from your mentor "Love is never having to say you're sorry"
The Government has accepted the SC ruling and has attended Parliament accordingly. The Government is perfectly entitled to say it disagrees with the SC's judgement as indeed is any loser in any court case.
Yes, but as Lady Sylvia Hermon stated in the House yesterday, it was extraordinarily arrogant of the PM to diss the view of the most senior court in the land in this way.
Might be ok for you and I - in the pub, over a pint - but for a PM?
Comments
January 2015 was before the EU rejected all reform too btw.
QED.
But apologies for the hypothetical scenario.
Implementing democracy is non-optional. If it becomes optional democracy dies and violence will be the order of the day as it is in ALL non-democracies throughout history.
Democracy is the only peaceful way to settle our differences and the losers in Parliament seeking to obstruct democracy are playing with fire. The only honourable course for a remainer MP is to get Brexit done then campaign to rejoin.
Like expecting a seat in the Tory cabinet after voting Labour.
Due to the infuriating habit of American News organisations rarely releasing the raw poll results it's hard to know what they mean by that last line but I think, from reading the article, is that that 59% is the primary reason given for impeachment, 37% think he should be impeached simply for being crap at the job.
Leaving 4% who want him impeached for misc reasons.
I'm keeping my power dry on this subject until the gold standard of American polling have polled on this topic.
The argument was about whether a percentage is a number. I say yes it is. So 32% = 0.32.
They need to sit down together and talk this out, the sort of moron that would make a death threat is the sort of moron that will make it when he hears that it's a 'thing' in the current climate. Report to police and step back from the outrage and anger to some sort of conciliation and positive action. The domestic violence bill next week is a chance for the house to show itself working together for good.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-confirms-he-will-campaign-for-uk-to-leave-eu-referendum-a6887596.html
1) An advisory referendum, allowed through on margins excluded in other parts of Europe, and with lax campaign rules also not allowed in many other developed nations, is not the beginning and end of the British democratic principle.
2) This plebiscitary advisory democracy and parliamentary democracy are not easily reconcilable. The members of the Brexit-legislating party themelves have been unable to agree, between themselves and even amongst Brexit supporters only, even, how this should be implemented. This is not a fault of the parliamentary system itself, but of the governing party's short-sightedness.
3) Democracy is never a static process. Referendums are regularly overturned when people's views and evidence change. If permanent democracy rather than unconditional victory were the real goal, Brexiters should have no problem with a further referendum after three years, if that is guaranteed to be the final say.
4) The rule of law seeks to be imposed by force rather than disorganised violence. The progress from law enforced by banditry to law enforced by organised force is part of the evolution of the rule of law itself.
98% Say Greatest President of All Time
2% refused to Answer.
If Boris takes on the Palace there will only be one winner and it will not be the "Buffoon In Residence" at 10 Downing Street.
Boris Johnson is like the Bible. You can always find a quote to back up your point of view if you look hard enough.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1177332419718000648
52 is also an untouchable number since it cannot be expressed as the sum of its divisors
Things we should be told about 52
Card not so sharp
Excluding jokers (there used to be only 2), its the number of playing cards in a pack
Betting News
The number of laps in a British Grand Prix
Unrelated
The number of white keys on a piano
The international dialling code for Mexico
In the old news
The number of US hostages held by Iran
Something else I can't remember but if you multiply it enough times you'll get to 17.4 million. Roughly.
So 52% == 52 / 100 == 0.52.
52% is therefore a represntation of a real number. And is therefore a number.
And of course 0.52 is a number. It is not an integer but it is a number. It's a real number!
https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1177166970636132352?s=20
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1177332960070176769
I supported Remain, vocally here, until Cameron came back with nothing and the EU revealed that reform was impossible.
The lib dems as they stand are basically the mirror image of the brexit party, a bunch of ultras who want their way without compromise, without consensus, without common sense.
And I say this as someone who actually quite liked the coalition era. But then again, I like consensus.
I've answered that point already.
The government changes the law all the time. That is not attacking the judiciary or its independence as you well know.
It might be my ellipsis mucking up the blockquotes.
I think we're making the same point. How is a govt supposed to change a law if it does not believe the existing law to be wrong? Whether it is the statutory tax rate on pasties, the split of damages in Corus or the justiciability of and judicial test for prorogation advice to HMQ, every new statute or SI starts with HMG forming the view that the existing law ain't quite all that. The 2006 Act wasn't an attack on the judges in Corus (one of whom was Lady Hale)
Knowing that, surely you can see that Falconer's assertion in his first sentence is wrong. Simply saying 'it's a wrong decision' is not an attack on the judiciary.
2. No it is a fault of Remainers in Parliament like Grieve who seek to obstruct any deal. If it wasn't for that then a form of Brexit could have been found, if not May's Deal then via the indicative votes.
3. You're right its not a static process. Again once we've left you can seek to rejoin. I have no objection to a further referendum after we have left.
4. Yes but who imposes the force? And who controls that? If not voters, then it will be very concerning.
The country voted for Brexit not the Tories, Parliament should implement it.
Emerson from 21st to 23rd September has it Biden 50% Trump 49%, Warren 51% Trump 49%, Trump 51% Sanders 49%, Trump 52% Harris 48%.
So still all to play for
https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2019-09/topline_reuters_trump_biden_ukraine_poll_09_24_2019__0.pdf
http://emersonpolling.com/2019/09/24/warren-surges-biden-slips-and-sanders-steadies-three-way-dead-heat-for-the-nomination/
The rule of law in a democracy requires that force is imposed in an orderly way, subject to and under the examination of key representative institutions of that democracy, like parliament. Cummings impllcitly endorsing banditry and intimidation beyond either the organised forces of law and order, or the oversight of parliament, is nothing to do with this process.
https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1177267716769624065?s=21
Credit to Gina Miller on QT who has made a sensible and genuinely non-partisan point about decency and civility in Parliament.
Will the opposition be willing to stop their game playing though?
B-52 wingspan = 56.4 m
Might be ok for you and I - in the pub, over a pint - but for a PM?