Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
Oh, he messed up the Scottish referendum with his lies - stay in the UK to remain in the EU - and his actions the morning after were all about kicking the Scots in the teeth with the EVEL business and saying they were second class within the UK. Plenty of unfinished business there ...
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
Oh, he messed up the Scottish referendum with his lies - stay in the UK to remain in the EU - and his actions the morning after were all about kicking the Scots in the teeth with the EVEL business and saying they were second class within the UK. Plenty of unfinished business there ...
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
Yep, I agree. But he will not be remembered as the last PM of the UK. That will be Johnson.
Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
He believed his spin that austerity was popular and didn't really affect people (and if it did, well they were Labour voters so fuck 'em)
Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
Oh, he messed up the Scottish referendum with his lies - stay in the UK to remain in the EU - and his actions the morning after were all about kicking the Scots in the teeth with the EVEL business and saying they were second class within the UK. Plenty of unfinished business there ...
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
Yep, I agree. But he will not be remembered as the last PM of the UK. That will be Johnson.
Nah, I am sure that there will be a further PM before Scottish independence. Indeed BoZo may not make it to Christmas.
Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
Oh, he messed up the Scottish referendum with his lies - stay in the UK to remain in the EU - and his actions the morning after were all about kicking the Scots in the teeth with the EVEL business and saying they were second class within the UK. Plenty of unfinished business there ...
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
Yep, I agree. But he will not be remembered as the last PM of the UK. That will be Johnson.
Point taken - though I'd like to see the Supreme Court decision on prorogation first before |I felt as brave as you.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Person1 (Labour voter, pro-EU): "I accepted the result, then the revelations made me want a second referendum, now I want revoke" Me: "So you'll be voting Lib Dem next time round then?" Person1: "Never. They're a bunch of Tories" Me: "But the Tories who've defected there are on the liberal wing..." Person1: "Doesn't matter. Still Tories. And so is Swinson. Coalition. Not voting for them" --- Person2 (Labour voter, very very mildly pro-Remain): "This revoke thing is a big mistake. It's not going to go down well. Plus the Lib Dems are splitting the remain vote" Me: "Splitting the Remain vote?" Person2: "Yes, they're trying to take votes from Labour" Me: "Is Labour in favour of Remain then?" Person2: "Yes" ---
Conclusion: the Lib Dems are Tories and they're trying to steal votes from Labour by adopting a policy that's different from Labour and won't be popular anyway. The revoke policy is stealing votes from Labour even though it isn't what people want, except the person who does want it but won't vote for it.
Both people say they will stick with Labour. I bit my tongue pretty hard today
This policy will split the Remainer vote though, revoke with the LDs for die hard Remainers is a better option than referendum on a Labour Brexit with Corbyn.
While the Leaver vote was split between Deal with May or No Deal with the Brexit Party, Boris has largely united it behind the Tories on a Brexit with a Deal or No Deal platform.
So the main winner today under FPTP is Boris
While I'm tempted to say "you would day that, wouldn't you?" I'd note the 14% swing from Con to LD in the latest ComRes but I'm sure you'll quote Opinium back at me so fine.
The policy is to Revoke if the Party wins a Parliamentary majority otherwise it's to support a second vote and continue to block a No Deal which is completely consistent. Why wouldn't those wishing to Remain (more than 10% I suspect) have a clear and unambiguous voice?
The Conservatives are currently riding both the horses of No Deal AND leaving with a Deal but the time is fast approaching when they will be forced to decide which horse they are really on. With No Deal blocked, the options then become leaving with a WA (really?) or storming off in a huff with the traditional Conservative attitude of evading responsibility and leaving the tough decisions to others.
Of course more than 10% want to Remain. It's nearer 50% than 10%.
But how many want to simply Revoke, and sod democracy? 10%? 15%? And how many will be comfortable with a party that espouses the cancellation of votes?
It's a deeply stupid policy.
What is anti democratic about winning a GE with a central manifesto pledge of "Revoke" and then doing it?
Sir, sir, is it ‘nothing’ sir?
Sir, what is anti-democratic about winning a GE with a central manifesto pledge of No Deal, and then doing it. Is it still "Nothing", Sir?
No point wasting valuable thinking time on the possibility of the Faragists winning a GE.
This policy will split the Remainer vote though, revoke with the LDs for die hard Remainers is a better option than referendum on a Labour Brexit with Corbyn.
While the Leaver vote was split between Deal with May or No Deal with the Brexit Party, Boris has largely united it behind the Tories on a Brexit with a Deal or No Deal platform.
So the main winner today under FPTP is Boris
While I'm tempted to say "you would day that, wouldn't you?" I'd note the 14% swing from Con to LD in the latest ComRes but I'm sure you'll quote Opinium back at me so fine.
The policy is to Revoke if the Party wins a Parliamentary majority otherwise it's to support a second vote and continue to block a No Deal which is completely consistent. Why wouldn't those wishing to Remain (more than 10% I suspect) have a clear and unambiguous voice?
The Conservatives are currently riding both the horses of No Deal AND leaving with a Deal but the time is fast approaching when they will be forced to decide which horse they are really on. With No Deal blocked, the options then become leaving with a WA (really?) or storming off in a huff with the traditional Conservative attitude of evading responsibility and leaving the tough decisions to others.
Of course more than 10% want to Remain. It's nearer 50% than 10%.
But how many want to simply Revoke, and sod democracy? 10%? 15%? And how many will be comfortable with a party that espouses the cancellation of votes?
It's a deeply stupid policy.
What is anti democratic about winning a GE with a central manifesto pledge of "Revoke" and then doing it?
The mandate is questionable. Does the lib dems managing to form a government on 30-ish% of the vote abnd revoke morally overrule a referendum where over 50% of people voted to leave?
If you're comfortable with that, then I also presume you're comfortable with Nigel Farage leading us out of the EU on a no referendum, no deal, no further negotiation policy at a future GE?
Person1 (Labour voter, pro-EU): "I accepted the result, then the revelations made me want a second referendum, now I want revoke" Me: "So you'll be voting Lib Dem next time round then?" Person1: "Never. They're a bunch of Tories" Me: "But the Tories who've defected there are on the liberal wing..." Person1: "Doesn't matter. Still Tories. And so is Swinson. Coalition. Not voting for them" --- Person2 (Labour voter, very very mildly pro-Remain): "This revoke thing is a big mistake. It's not going to go down well. Plus the Lib Dems are splitting the remain vote" Me: "Splitting the Remain vote?" Person2: "Yes, they're trying to take votes from Labour" Me: "Is Labour in favour of Remain then?" Person2: "Yes" ---
Conclusion: the Lib Dems are Tories and they're trying to steal votes from Labour by adopting a policy that's different from Labour and won't be popular anyway. The revoke policy is stealing votes from Labour even though it isn't what people want, except the person who does want it but won't vote for it.
Both people say they will stick with Labour. I bit my tongue pretty hard today
Blimey. Confirmatory evidence that the bulk of the remaining Labour vote has the intellect of a stuffed rabbit.
This policy will split the Remainer vote though, revoke with the LDs for die hard Remainers is a better option than referendum on a Labour Brexit with Corbyn.
While the Leaver vote was split between Deal with May or No Deal with the Brexit Party, Boris has largely united it behind the Tories on a Brexit with a Deal or No Deal platform.
So the main winner today under FPTP is Boris
While I'm tempted to say "you would day that, wouldn't you?" I'd note the 14% swing from Con to LD in the latest ComRes but I'm sure you'll quote Opinium back at me so fine.
The policy is to Revoke if the Party wins a Parliamentary majority otherwise it's to support a second vote and continue to block a No Deal which is completely consistent. Why wouldn't those wishing to Remain (more than 10% I suspect) have a clear and unambiguous voice?
The Conservatives are currently riding both the horses of No Deal AND leaving with a Deal but the time is fast approaching when they will be forced to decide which horse they are really on. With No Deal blocked, the options then become leaving with a WA (really?) or storming off in a huff with the traditional Conservative attitude of evading responsibility and leaving the tough decisions to others.
Of course more than 10% want to Remain. It's nearer 50% than 10%.
But how many want to simply Revoke, and sod democracy? 10%? 15%? And how many will be comfortable with a party that espouses the cancellation of votes?
It's a deeply stupid policy.
What is anti democratic about winning a GE with a central manifesto pledge of "Revoke" and then doing it?
Sir, sir, is it ‘nothing’ sir?
Sir, what is anti-democratic about winning a GE with a central manifesto pledge of No Deal, and then doing it. Is it still "Nothing", Sir?
No point wasting valuable thinking time on the possibility of the Faragists winning a GE.
Person1 (Labour voter, pro-EU): "I accepted the result, then the revelations made me want a second referendum, now I want revoke" Me: "So you'll be voting Lib Dem next time round then?" Person1: "Never. They're a bunch of Tories" Me: "But the Tories who've defected there are on the liberal wing..." Person1: "Doesn't matter. Still Tories. And so is Swinson. Coalition. Not voting for them" --- Person2 (Labour voter, very very mildly pro-Remain): "This revoke thing is a big mistake. It's not going to go down well. Plus the Lib Dems are splitting the remain vote" Me: "Splitting the Remain vote?" Person2: "Yes, they're trying to take votes from Labour" Me: "Is Labour in favour of Remain then?" Person2: "Yes" ---
Conclusion: the Lib Dems are Tories and they're trying to steal votes from Labour by adopting a policy that's different from Labour and won't be popular anyway. The revoke policy is stealing votes from Labour even though it isn't what people want, except the person who does want it but won't vote for it.
Both people say they will stick with Labour. I bit my tongue pretty hard today
Blimey. Confirmatory evidence that the bulk of the remaining Labour vote has the intellect of a stuffed rabbit.
I think assuming it is any different for the average voter of any party is optimistic.
The danger with the Lib Dems revoking without a Referendum is that its likely the Tories would then become a leave without one at a future GE and a majority Tory government could easily then after a future GE ram through a hard Brexit - and once we're out its impossible to just revoke, it becomes about rejoining.
Person1 (Labour voter, pro-EU): "I accepted the result, then the revelations made me want a second referendum, now I want revoke" Me: "So you'll be voting Lib Dem next time round then?" Person1: "Never. They're a bunch of Tories" Me: "But the Tories who've defected there are on the liberal wing..." Person1: "Doesn't matter. Still Tories. And so is Swinson. Coalition. Not voting for them" --- Person2 (Labour voter, very very mildly pro-Remain): "This revoke thing is a big mistake. It's not going to go down well. Plus the Lib Dems are splitting the remain vote" Me: "Splitting the Remain vote?" Person2: "Yes, they're trying to take votes from Labour" Me: "Is Labour in favour of Remain then?" Person2: "Yes" ---
Conclusion: the Lib Dems are Tories and they're trying to steal votes from Labour by adopting a policy that's different from Labour and won't be popular anyway. The revoke policy is stealing votes from Labour even though it isn't what people want, except the person who does want it but won't vote for it.
Both people say they will stick with Labour. I bit my tongue pretty hard today
Blimey. Confirmatory evidence that the bulk of the remaining Labour vote has the intellect of a stuffed rabbit.
I think assuming it is any different for the average voter of any party is optimistic.
Well, I dunno. I think an awful lot of Tories don't even measure up to that, starting with Johnson and Cummings.
Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
Oh, he messed up the Scottish referendum with his lies - stay in the UK to remain in the EU - and his actions the morning after were all about kicking the Scots in the teeth with the EVEL business and saying they were second class within the UK. Plenty of unfinished business there ...
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
Yep, I agree. But he will not be remembered as the last PM of the UK. That will be Johnson.
Nah, I am sure that there will be a further PM before Scottish independence. Indeed BoZo may not make it to Christmas.
There could be an inter-regnum, but we’ve got him for the next seven years, I reckon.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Just been out with a group of pensioners who are going to cancel their donations to RNLI because of the daily mail article. Well done daily mail you really should have thought it through before putting the whole operation at risk. Don’t know if the RNLI were wrong to spend 2% overseas but it’s going to hit their financial viability.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
Yes it is. Its designed to mislead people that we spend a ton of money on EU membership and get nothing back.
The mandate is questionable. Does the lib dems managing to form a government on 30-ish% of the vote abnd revoke morally overrule a referendum where over 50% of people voted to leave?
The irony of the Lib Dems winning a majority on 35% and then implementing a program of government that isn't liked by a good proportion of the country would not be an irony. It would be a rich, fruity layer cake of irony, with irony icing, served with the most iron-y cutlery, washed down the finest glass of Chateau de Leave d'Tears. All those years the Tories have benefited from FPTP, and all this time people like me have been campaigning for PR, it would be the most exquisite of pleasures to see this happen.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
Yes it is. Its designed to mislead people that we spend a ton of money on EU membership and get nothing back.
It’s misleading. It’s pathetic. It’s dangerous.
We do spend a ton of money on EU membership.
We may get a fraction of our own money back on priorities not chosen by our representatives but that doesn't change that we spend a ton of money on EU membership.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
And it’s cheap for what we get out of it.
Make that case if you want to justify it, not dismiss it as Gallowgate did with a lie about it being fake. The truth is never fake.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
Yes it is. Its designed to mislead people that we spend a ton of money on EU membership and get nothing back.
It’s misleading. It’s pathetic. It’s dangerous.
We do spend a ton of money on EU membership.
We may get a fraction of our own money back on priorities not chosen by our representatives but that doesn't change that we spend a ton of money on EU membership.
Considering we are having to spend MORE replicating what we already get - I think that says it all. As I said, misleading, dangerous, pathetic.
Person1 (Labour voter, pro-EU): "I accepted the result, then the revelations made me want a second referendum, now I want revoke" Me: "So you'll be voting Lib Dem next time round then?" Person1: "Never. They're a bunch of Tories" Me: "But the Tories who've defected there are on the liberal wing..." Person1: "Doesn't matter. Still Tories. And so is Swinson. Coalition. Not voting for them" --- Person2 (Labour voter, very very mildly pro-Remain): "This revoke thing is a big mistake. It's not going to go down well. Plus the Lib Dems are splitting the remain vote" Me: "Splitting the Remain vote?" Person2: "Yes, they're trying to take votes from Labour" Me: "Is Labour in favour of Remain then?" Person2: "Yes" ---
Conclusion: the Lib Dems are Tories and they're trying to steal votes from Labour by adopting a policy that's different from Labour and won't be popular anyway. The revoke policy is stealing votes from Labour even though it isn't what people want, except the person who does want it but won't vote for it.
Both people say they will stick with Labour. I bit my tongue pretty hard today
All seems pretty reasonable to me. The Labour vote is more solid than people think because a lot of voters understand that if you want to keep the Tories out there is only one game in town, at least in England. I think Labour would get around 25% of the vote and win about 245 seats to the Tories' 290 if an election were held now.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
And it’s cheap for what we get out of it.
Make that case if you want to justify it, not dismiss it as Gallowgate did with a lie about it being fake. The truth is never fake.
It is not the truth. It is a dangerous half-truth.
Something you are so full of glee about but if Labour do the same, you’d be frothing at the mouth.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
Yes it is. Its designed to mislead people that we spend a ton of money on EU membership and get nothing back.
It’s misleading. It’s pathetic. It’s dangerous.
We do spend a ton of money on EU membership.
We may get a fraction of our own money back on priorities not chosen by our representatives but that doesn't change that we spend a ton of money on EU membership.
Considering we are having to spend MORE replicating what we already get - I think that says it all. As I said, misleading, dangerous, pathetic.
Feel free to counter these facts with other facts regarding the net contribution. Dismissing them as dangerous is not helpful.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
Yes it is. Its designed to mislead people that we spend a ton of money on EU membership and get nothing back.
It’s misleading. It’s pathetic. It’s dangerous.
We do spend a ton of money on EU membership.
We may get a fraction of our own money back on priorities not chosen by our representatives but that doesn't change that we spend a ton of money on EU membership.
Considering we are having to spend MORE replicating what we already get - I think that says it all. As I said, misleading, dangerous, pathetic.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
Yes it is. Its designed to mislead people that we spend a ton of money on EU membership and get nothing back.
It’s misleading. It’s pathetic. It’s dangerous.
We do spend a ton of money on EU membership.
We may get a fraction of our own money back on priorities not chosen by our representatives but that doesn't change that we spend a ton of money on EU membership.
Considering we are having to spend MORE replicating what we already get - I think that says it all. As I said, misleading, dangerous, pathetic.
Feel free to counter these facts with other facts regarding the net contribution. Dismissing them as dangerous is not helpful.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
Yes it is. Its designed to mislead people that we spend a ton of money on EU membership and get nothing back.
It’s misleading. It’s pathetic. It’s dangerous.
We do spend a ton of money on EU membership.
We may get a fraction of our own money back on priorities not chosen by our representatives but that doesn't change that we spend a ton of money on EU membership.
Considering we are having to spend MORE replicating what we already get - I think that says it all. As I said, misleading, dangerous, pathetic.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
Yes it is. Its designed to mislead people that we spend a ton of money on EU membership and get nothing back.
It’s misleading. It’s pathetic. It’s dangerous.
We do spend a ton of money on EU membership.
We may get a fraction of our own money back on priorities not chosen by our representatives but that doesn't change that we spend a ton of money on EU membership.
Considering we are having to spend MORE replicating what we already get - I think that says it all. As I said, misleading, dangerous, pathetic.
Feel free to counter these facts with other facts regarding the net contribution. Dismissing them as dangerous is not helpful.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
And it’s cheap for what we get out of it.
Make that case if you want to justify it, not dismiss it as Gallowgate did with a lie about it being fake. The truth is never fake.
It is not the truth. It is a dangerous half-truth.
Something you are so full of glee about but if Labour do the same, you’d be frothing at the mouth.
Quite the opposite, if Labour claimed they weren't taxing us while boasting about how much they're spending like you're trying to do then I'd call that out too.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
And it’s cheap for what we get out of it.
Make that case if you want to justify it, not dismiss it as Gallowgate did with a lie about it being fake. The truth is never fake.
It is not the truth. It is a dangerous half-truth.
Something you are so full of glee about but if Labour do the same, you’d be frothing at the mouth.
Quite the opposite, if Labour claimed they weren't taxing us while boasting about how much they're spending like you're trying to do then I'd call that out too.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
Yes it is. Its designed to mislead people that we spend a ton of money on EU membership and get nothing back.
It’s misleading. It’s pathetic. It’s dangerous.
We do spend a ton of money on EU membership.
We may get a fraction of our own money back on priorities not chosen by our representatives but that doesn't change that we spend a ton of money on EU membership.
Considering we are having to spend MORE replicating what we already get - I think that says it all. As I said, misleading, dangerous, pathetic.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
And it’s cheap for what we get out of it.
Make that case if you want to justify it, not dismiss it as Gallowgate did with a lie about it being fake. The truth is never fake.
It is not the truth. It is a dangerous half-truth.
Something you are so full of glee about but if Labour do the same, you’d be frothing at the mouth.
Quite the opposite, if Labour claimed they weren't taxing us while boasting about how much they're spending like you're trying to do then I'd call that out too.
Person1 (Labour voter, pro-EU): "I accepted the result, then the revelations made me want a second referendum, now I want revoke" Me: "So you'll be voting Lib Dem next time round then?" Person1: "Never. They're a bunch of Tories" Me: "But the Tories who've defected there are on the liberal wing..." Person1: "Doesn't matter. Still Tories. And so is Swinson. Coalition. Not voting for them" --- Person2 (Labour voter, very very mildly pro-Remain): "This revoke thing is a big mistake. It's not going to go down well. Plus the Lib Dems are splitting the remain vote" Me: "Splitting the Remain vote?" Person2: "Yes, they're trying to take votes from Labour" Me: "Is Labour in favour of Remain then?" Person2: "Yes" ---
Conclusion: the Lib Dems are Tories and they're trying to steal votes from Labour by adopting a policy that's different from Labour and won't be popular anyway. The revoke policy is stealing votes from Labour even though it isn't what people want, except the person who does want it but won't vote for it.
Both people say they will stick with Labour. I bit my tongue pretty hard today
All seems pretty reasonable to me. The Labour vote is more solid than people think because a lot of voters understand that if you want to keep the Tories out there is only one game in town, at least in England. I think Labour would get around 25% of the vote and win about 245 seats to the Tories' 290 if an election were held now.
I think they could easily get more.
Labour succeeds in spite of Corbyn, whereas the Conservative score is more dependent on the opinion of its leader.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
Yes it is. Its designed to mislead people that we spend a ton of money on EU membership and get nothing back.
It’s misleading. It’s pathetic. It’s dangerous.
We do spend a ton of money on EU membership.
We may get a fraction of our own money back on priorities not chosen by our representatives but that doesn't change that we spend a ton of money on EU membership.
Considering we are having to spend MORE replicating what we already get - I think that says it all. As I said, misleading, dangerous, pathetic.
Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
Oh, he messed up the Scottish referendum with his lies - stay in the UK to remain in the EU - and his actions the morning after were all about kicking the Scots in the teeth with the EVEL business and saying they were second class within the UK. Plenty of unfinished business there ...
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
Yep, I agree. But he will not be remembered as the last PM of the UK. That will be Johnson.
Nah, I am sure that there will be a further PM before Scottish independence. Indeed BoZo may not make it to Christmas.
There could be an inter-regnum, but we’ve got him for the next seven years, I reckon.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
Yes it is. Its designed to mislead people that we spend a ton of money on EU membership and get nothing back.
It’s misleading. It’s pathetic. It’s dangerous.
We do spend a ton of money on EU membership.
We may get a fraction of our own money back on priorities not chosen by our representatives but that doesn't change that we spend a ton of money on EU membership.
Considering we are having to spend MORE replicating what we already get - I think that says it all. As I said, misleading, dangerous, pathetic.
Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
Oh, he messed up the Scottish referendum with his lies - stay in the UK to remain in the EU - and his actions the morning after were all about kicking the Scots in the teeth with the EVEL business and saying they were second class within the UK. Plenty of unfinished business there ...
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
Yep, I agree. But he will not be remembered as the last PM of the UK. That will be Johnson.
Nah, I am sure that there will be a further PM before Scottish independence. Indeed BoZo may not make it to Christmas.
There could be an inter-regnum, but we’ve got him for the next seven years, I reckon.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
Yes it is. Its designed to mislead people that we spend a ton of money on EU membership and get nothing back.
It’s misleading. It’s pathetic. It’s dangerous.
We do spend a ton of money on EU membership.
We may get a fraction of our own money back on priorities not chosen by our representatives but that doesn't change that we spend a ton of money on EU membership.
Considering we are having to spend MORE replicating what we already get - I think that says it all. As I said, misleading, dangerous, pathetic.
No we're not, that's fake news.
See what I mean?
That you just made up bulls**t?
Have a source for that claim?
If you can make up bullsh**t so can I.
Nah, only bulls can do that. Unicorns have a cow of a job to make anything.
The mandate is questionable. Does the lib dems managing to form a government on 30-ish% of the vote abnd revoke morally overrule a referendum where over 50% of people voted to leave?
The irony of the Lib Dems winning a majority on 35% and then implementing a program of government that isn't liked by a good proportion of the country would not be an irony. It would be a rich, fruity layer cake of irony, with irony icing, served with the most iron-y cutlery, washed down the finest glass of Chateau de Leave d'Tears. All those years the Tories have benefited from FPTP, and all this time people like me have been campaigning for PR, it would be the most exquisite of pleasures to see this happen.
Until the Brexit Party wins a majority next time around...
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
And it’s cheap for what we get out of it.
Make that case if you want to justify it, not dismiss it as Gallowgate did with a lie about it being fake. The truth is never fake.
It is not the truth. It is a dangerous half-truth.
Something you are so full of glee about but if Labour do the same, you’d be frothing at the mouth.
Quite the opposite, if Labour claimed they weren't taxing us while boasting about how much they're spending like you're trying to do then I'd call that out too.
And I’m calling you out.
On what?
The proper answer to this should be "pretty much everything you ever say". You are an abject fantasist on even good days.
The mandate is questionable. Does the lib dems managing to form a government on 30-ish% of the vote abnd revoke morally overrule a referendum where over 50% of people voted to leave?
The irony of the Lib Dems winning a majority on 35% and then implementing a program of government that isn't liked by a good proportion of the country would not be an irony. It would be a rich, fruity layer cake of irony, with irony icing, served with the most iron-y cutlery, washed down the finest glass of Chateau de Leave d'Tears. All those years the Tories have benefited from FPTP, and all this time people like me have been campaigning for PR, it would be the most exquisite of pleasures to see this happen.
Until the Brexit Party wins a majority next time around...
That's a one-man ego trip, not a party. Its chances of winning a majority are the same as the chances of Joe Root scoring a century at No. 3.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
Yes it is. Its designed to mislead people that we spend a ton of money on EU membership and get nothing back.
It’s misleading. It’s pathetic. It’s dangerous.
We do spend a ton of money on EU membership.
We may get a fraction of our own money back on priorities not chosen by our representatives but that doesn't change that we spend a ton of money on EU membership.
Considering we are having to spend MORE replicating what we already get - I think that says it all. As I said, misleading, dangerous, pathetic.
No we're not, that's fake news.
See what I mean?
That you just made up bulls**t?
Have a source for that claim?
If you can make up bullsh**t so can I.
Nah, only bulls can do that. Unicorns have a cow of a job to make anything.
The headlines for the Lib Dems are perfect. Unambiguous; no explanation needed.
If you want this nonsense to end; vote Lib Dem.
You think revocation would be the end? That's cute!
It’s the perfect question to destroy the lib dems with from this moment on, so what exactly do you think happens after you revoke?
Easy. We stop wasting all this money on ghost ferry contracts, medicine stockpiling, charter flights, etc. and spend it on making this country better such as NHS and infrastructure investments.
While also sending a billion pounds a month to Brussels?
Not this fake news again.
Its not fake.
And it’s cheap for what we get out of it.
Make that case if you want to justify it, not dismiss it as Gallowgate did with a lie about it being fake. The truth is never fake.
Why would I bother doing that when you would simply dismiss it as fake/.
We get more out of it from the access to markets it provides us than we loss. As I won’t be effected and would likely profit from it personally I’m happy for Boris to have his experiment. If it gets really bad I’ll watch it from the beachside villa I’m looking at tomorrow a
The mandate is questionable. Does the lib dems managing to form a government on 30-ish% of the vote abnd revoke morally overrule a referendum where over 50% of people voted to leave?
The irony of the Lib Dems winning a majority on 35% and then implementing a program of government that isn't liked by a good proportion of the country would not be an irony. It would be a rich, fruity layer cake of irony, with irony icing, served with the most iron-y cutlery, washed down the finest glass of Chateau de Leave d'Tears. All those years the Tories have benefited from FPTP, and all this time people like me have been campaigning for PR, it would be the most exquisite of pleasures to see this happen.
Until the Brexit Party wins a majority next time around...
I was talking about a program of government, not a pogrom.
Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
Oh, he messed up the Scottish referendum with his lies - stay in the UK to remain in the EU - and his actions the morning after were all about kicking the Scots in the teeth with the EVEL business and saying they were second class within the UK. Plenty of unfinished business there ...
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
I must say, I'm increasingly unconvinced by this argument. No matter how many powers Westminster devolves to Holyrood support for independence remains very high and the demands keep coming.
Many nationalist voters want independence precisely so they can control foreign affairs and defence policy.
Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
Oh, he messed up the Scottish referendum with his lies - stay in the UK to remain in the EU - and his actions the morning after were all about kicking the Scots in the teeth with the EVEL business and saying they were second class within the UK. Plenty of unfinished business there ...
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
I must say, I'm increasingly unconvinced by this argument. No matter how many powers Westminster devolves to Holyrood support for independence remains very high and the demands keep coming.
Many nationalist voters want independence precisely so they can control foreign affairs and defence policy.
Serious question: what powers have been devolved to Scotland since the indyref?
Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
Oh, he messed up the Scottish referendum with his lies - stay in the UK to remain in the EU - and his actions the morning after were all about kicking the Scots in the teeth with the EVEL business and saying they were second class within the UK. Plenty of unfinished business there ...
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
I must say, I'm increasingly unconvinced by this argument. No matter how many powers Westminster devolves to Holyrood support for independence remains very high and the demands keep coming.
Many nationalist voters want independence precisely so they can control foreign affairs and defence policy.
Serious question: what powers have been devolved to Scotland since the indyref?
Power to set the rates and bands of income tax on non-savings and non-dividend income half the share of VAT receipts in Scotland being assigned to the Scottish government's budget and power over Air Passenger Duty and Aggregates Levy.
Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
Oh, he messed up the Scottish referendum with his lies - stay in the UK to remain in the EU - and his actions the morning after were all about kicking the Scots in the teeth with the EVEL business and saying they were second class within the UK. Plenty of unfinished business there ...
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
I must say, I'm increasingly unconvinced by this argument. No matter how many powers Westminster devolves to Holyrood support for independence remains very high and the demands keep coming.
Many nationalist voters want independence precisely so they can control foreign affairs and defence policy.
Serious question: what powers have been devolved to Scotland since the indyref?
I'm pretty sure the answer's 'none.' That said, I'm not sure whether the tax powers they have were transferred before but never used, or after.
The danger with the Lib Dems revoking without a Referendum is that its likely the Tories would then become a leave without one at a future GE and a majority Tory government could easily then after a future GE ram through a hard Brexit - and once we're out its impossible to just revoke, it becomes about rejoining.
But that would involve the Tories taking ownership of Brexit and its consequences. They want to leave EU but with other people's fingerprints on the decision
The mandate is questionable. Does the lib dems managing to form a government on 30-ish% of the vote abnd revoke morally overrule a referendum where over 50% of people voted to leave?
The irony of the Lib Dems winning a majority on 35% and then implementing a program of government that isn't liked by a good proportion of the country would not be an irony. It would be a rich, fruity layer cake of irony, with irony icing, served with the most iron-y cutlery, washed down the finest glass of Chateau de Leave d'Tears. All those years the Tories have benefited from FPTP, and all this time people like me have been campaigning for PR, it would be the most exquisite of pleasures to see this happen.
Until the Brexit Party wins a majority next time around...
That's a one-man ego trip, not a party. Its chances of winning a majority are the same as the chances of Joe Root scoring a century at No. 3.
I'd say its chances become quite good if we end up in a revoke situation. Revoke, followed by five years of simmering resentment and possibly a recession during that time? Nailed on.
Which is why revoke is the dumbest idea ever. It turns every election into a referendum on the EU. To keep us in indefinitely remainers would have to win every election, to drag us out without a deal brexiteers only have to win once.
Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
Oh, he messed up the Scottish referendum with his lies - stay in the UK to remain in the EU - and his actions the morning after were all about kicking the Scots in the teeth with the EVEL business and saying they were second class within the UK. Plenty of unfinished business there ...
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
I must say, I'm increasingly unconvinced by this argument. No matter how many powers Westminster devolves to Holyrood support for independence remains very high and the demands keep coming.
Many nationalist voters want independence precisely so they can control foreign affairs and defence policy.
Serious question: what powers have been devolved to Scotland since the indyref?
Power to set the rates and bands of income tax on non-savings and non-dividend income half the share of VAT receipts in Scotland being assigned to the Scottish government's budget and power over Air Passenger Duty and Aggregates Levy.
There's an argument that the best result would have been Remain 50.1%, Leave 49.9% because then the EU may have had to realise how serious things were getting, not just with regard to the UK but also with other countries like Italy, Hungary, Greece, etc.
I made that precise argument on here in the weeks leading up to the vote. That that is exactly what the British electorate were intending to achieve.
And I was complemented on it by....SeanT.
One of the things that most angered me about Boris Johnson was when he claimed we should vote leave to get the EU to offer us a much better deal. It was as if the entire political class had no idea what they were dealing with. Referendums are not half-hearted matters and parliament's integrity was already fraying. It was an unbelievably reckless thing to say.
O/T - I know there are other cricket fans on here and on Amazon Prime at the moment the film The Edge is free, Details with how England from 2009 to 2013 became the No 1 team in the world, Also deals with KP and his texts and why the rest ganged up on him. very good reviews and worth a watch,
Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
Oh, he messed up the Scottish referendum with his lies - stay in the UK to remain in the EU - and his actions the morning after were all about kicking the Scots in the teeth with the EVEL business and saying they were second class within the UK. Plenty of unfinished business there ...
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
I must say, I'm increasingly unconvinced by this argument. No matter how many powers Westminster devolves to Holyrood support for independence remains very high and the demands keep coming.
Many nationalist voters want independence precisely so they can control foreign affairs and defence policy.
Quite so. I wasn't too clear admittedly. I was thinking specifically about the context of the runup to the referendum and the lack of a max devo option in the referendum which Mr Cameron ruled out, I think, about a year before the vote. As I recall, he was decoyed into it by Mr Salmond. This was despite polling showing it would be the runaway winner in the context of the time. (And I should have added fiscal policy/the £ to defence and foreign policy BTW). That really would have secured the Union for some years. (How many years is a good question in view of what has happened since with Brexit, so perhaps it wouldn't have made that much difference on reflection. But it looked like that at the time, I can assure you.)
But Mr Cameron's destroying the middle ground like that was a major contribution to the jump in the independence vote from about 22-25% at the Edinburgh Agreement to about 52% at the time of the great panic and the Vow by Mr Cameron et aliis.
The failure to offer such a positive option nearly lost Scotland in 2014, and it was only saved at the price of some serious breaches of good faith.
That reflects, arguably, on Mr Cameron's strategic thinking ...
The mandate is questionable. Does the lib dems managing to form a government on 30-ish% of the vote abnd revoke morally overrule a referendum where over 50% of people voted to leave?
The irony of the Lib Dems winning a majority on 35% and then implementing a program of government that isn't liked by a good proportion of the country would not be an irony. It would be a rich, fruity layer cake of irony, with irony icing, served with the most iron-y cutlery, washed down the finest glass of Chateau de Leave d'Tears. All those years the Tories have benefited from FPTP, and all this time people like me have been campaigning for PR, it would be the most exquisite of pleasures to see this happen.
Until the Brexit Party wins a majority next time around...
Well of course that majority LD government would first Revoke A50 and then introduce PR to prevent anyone else winning a majority on less than 50% of the vote.
Just been out with a group of pensioners who are going to cancel their donations to RNLI because of the daily mail article. Well done daily mail you really should have thought it through before putting the whole operation at risk. Don’t know if the RNLI were wrong to spend 2% overseas but it’s going to hit their financial viability.
The Daily Mail know that nothing makes their readership angry quite like the thought of their money helping to stop brown kids from drowning.
The mandate is questionable. Does the lib dems managing to form a government on 30-ish% of the vote abnd revoke morally overrule a referendum where over 50% of people voted to leave?
The irony of the Lib Dems winning a majority on 35% and then implementing a program of government that isn't liked by a good proportion of the country would not be an irony. It would be a rich, fruity layer cake of irony, with irony icing, served with the most iron-y cutlery, washed down the finest glass of Chateau de Leave d'Tears. All those years the Tories have benefited from FPTP, and all this time people like me have been campaigning for PR, it would be the most exquisite of pleasures to see this happen.
Until the Brexit Party wins a majority next time around...
Nah, having Revoked, next law is electoral reform, and the end of FPTP.
Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
Oh, he messed up the Scottish referendum with his lies - stay in the UK to remain in the EU - and his actions the morning after were all about kicking the Scots in the teeth with the EVEL business and saying they were second class within the UK. Plenty of unfinished business there ...
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
I must say, I'm increasingly unconvinced by this argument. No matter how many powers Westminster devolves to Holyrood support for independence remains very high and the demands keep coming.
Many nationalist voters want independence precisely so they can control foreign affairs and defence policy.
Serious question: what powers have been devolved to Scotland since the indyref?
Power to set the rates and bands of income tax on non-savings and non-dividend income half the share of VAT receipts in Scotland being assigned to the Scottish government's budget and power over Air Passenger Duty and Aggregates Levy.
Just been out with a group of pensioners who are going to cancel their donations to RNLI because of the daily mail article. Well done daily mail you really should have thought it through before putting the whole operation at risk. Don’t know if the RNLI were wrong to spend 2% overseas but it’s going to hit their financial viability.
The Daily Mail know that nothing makes their readership angry quite like the thought of their money helping to stop brown kids from drowning.
The mandate is questionable. Does the lib dems managing to form a government on 30-ish% of the vote abnd revoke morally overrule a referendum where over 50% of people voted to leave?
The irony of the Lib Dems winning a majority on 35% and then implementing a program of government that isn't liked by a good proportion of the country would not be an irony. It would be a rich, fruity layer cake of irony, with irony icing, served with the most iron-y cutlery, washed down the finest glass of Chateau de Leave d'Tears. All those years the Tories have benefited from FPTP, and all this time people like me have been campaigning for PR, it would be the most exquisite of pleasures to see this happen.
Until the Brexit Party wins a majority next time around...
Nah, having Revoked, next law is electoral reform, and the end of FPTP.
Catching up on Cameron in The Times. It’s tragic. He had no idea of the country he led. And he knows he will be remembered for just one thing. His only consolation is that he did not, quite, mess up the Scottish independence referendum. One day we may get passed Brexit, but the break-up of the UK would have been forever. That will be Johnson’s legacy instead.
Oh, he messed up the Scottish referendum with his lies - stay in the UK to remain in the EU - and his actions the morning after were all about kicking the Scots in the teeth with the EVEL business and saying they were second class within the UK. Plenty of unfinished business there ...
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
I must say, I'm increasingly unconvinced by this argument. No matter how many powers Westminster devolves to Holyrood support for independence remains very high and the demands keep coming.
Many nationalist voters want independence precisely so they can control foreign affairs and defence policy.
Quite so. I wasn't too clear admittedly. I was thinking specifically about the context of the runup to the referendum and the lack of a max devo option in the referendum which Mr Cameron ruled out, I think, about a year before the vote. As I recall, he was decoyed into it by Mr Salmond. This was despite polling showing it would be the runaway winner in the context of the time. (And I should have added fiscal policy/the £ to defence and foreign policy BTW). That really would have secured the Union for some years. (How many years is a good question in view of what has happened since with Brexit, so perhaps it wouldn't have made that much difference on reflection. But it looked like that at the time, I can assure you.)
But Mr Cameron's destroying the middle ground like that was a major contribution to the jump in the independence vote from about 22-25% at the Edinburgh Agreement to about 52% at the time of the great panic and the Vow by Mr Cameron et aliis.
The failure to offer such a positive option nearly lost Scotland in 2014, and it was only saved at the price of some serious breaches of good faith.
That reflects, arguably, on Mr Cameron's strategic thinking ...
Devo Max is something which we can (largely) all agree on in the abstract is a good idea but actually probably wouldn't move the dial either which way if it actually happened.
I expect a constitutional convention leading to so co-federal decision making powers (weighted) across Westminster, Holyrood, Stormont and Cardiff Bay on foreign and trade policy matters might provide a better answer.
The mandate is questionable. Does the lib dems managing to form a government on 30-ish% of the vote abnd revoke morally overrule a referendum where over 50% of people voted to leave?
The irony of the Lib Dems winning a majority on 35% and then implementing a program of government that isn't liked by a good proportion of the country would not be an irony. It would be a rich, fruity layer cake of irony, with irony icing, served with the most iron-y cutlery, washed down the finest glass of Chateau de Leave d'Tears. All those years the Tories have benefited from FPTP, and all this time people like me have been campaigning for PR, it would be the most exquisite of pleasures to see this happen.
Until the Brexit Party wins a majority next time around...
Nah, having Revoked, next law is electoral reform, and the end of FPTP.
It's important to weight up that some people will be unhappy about this.
On the one hand, revoke and then PR would make me very happy, so that's a reason to do the above. On the other hand, it would make some Conservatives extremely unhappy. So that's also a reason to do it.
Just been out with a group of pensioners who are going to cancel their donations to RNLI because of the daily mail article. Well done daily mail you really should have thought it through before putting the whole operation at risk. Don’t know if the RNLI were wrong to spend 2% overseas but it’s going to hit their financial viability.
The Daily Mail know that nothing makes their readership angry quite like the thought of their money helping to stop brown kids from drowning.
Aka 'cockroaches', ™Katie Hopkins.
But by this short sighted desire for headlines they could actually ‘sink’ the whole operation
Now that the party conference has formally endorsed this my advice to the Liberal Democrats would be double or quits. A " revoke bonus " should do the trick. A one off spending pledge to be in councils/charities/community groups by the first anniversary of revocation. To be funded from the ' savings ' of cancelling Brexit. If the figure is only half as dishonest as the £350m pw it will look highly credible. There are enough strong correalates of the Leave vote to weight it by Leave vote without weighting it by Leave vote.
As ever the LDs are in a position to promise a whole sky full of moons without having to deliver.
If Swinson believed she could be PM that revoke pledge would never have been made.
On reflection, I think it is a stupid pledge, and will do them harm.
They have completely misread the public mood. Remainers aren't coming to them for ultra-Remain policies, they are coming to them because the Lib Dems are (or were) honest but fair Remainers, who have stood by their principles.
Now the Lib Dems have an insane and extremist policy, they are as bad as the No Deal Ultras. And how can they say the name Liberal "Democrats" ever again, without getting a load of abuse?
Tut tut tut.
This policy will split the Remainer vote though, revoke with the LDs for die hard Remainers is a better option than referendum on a Labour Brexit with Corbyn.
While the Leaver vote was split between Deal with May or No Deal with the Brexit Party, Boris has largely united it behind the Tories on a Brexit with a Deal or No Deal platform.
So the main winner today under FPTP is Boris
lol!! Well you could have knocked me down with a feather!
There's an argument that the best result would have been Remain 50.1%, Leave 49.9% because then the EU may have had to realise how serious things were getting, not just with regard to the UK but also with other countries like Italy, Hungary, Greece, etc.
I made that precise argument on here in the weeks leading up to the vote. That that is exactly what the British electorate were intending to achieve.
And I was complemented on it by....SeanT.
One of the things that most angered me about Boris Johnson was when he claimed we should vote leave to get the EU to offer us a much better deal. It was as if the entire political class had no idea what they were dealing with. Referendums are not half-hearted matters and parliament's integrity was already fraying. It was an unbelievably reckless thing to say.
He had a good precedent from the rejections of previous EU treaties from other member states.
The mandate is questionable. Does the lib dems managing to form a government on 30-ish% of the vote abnd revoke morally overrule a referendum where over 50% of people voted to leave?
The irony of the Lib Dems winning a majority on 35% and then implementing a program of government that isn't liked by a good proportion of the country would not be an irony. It would be a rich, fruity layer cake of irony, with irony icing, served with the most iron-y cutlery, washed down the finest glass of Chateau de Leave d'Tears. All those years the Tories have benefited from FPTP, and all this time people like me have been campaigning for PR, it would be the most exquisite of pleasures to see this happen.
Until the Brexit Party wins a majority next time around...
IF the LibDems got a majority I hope they would implement PR asap for three reasons:
1. It is the right thing to do.
2. It has been LibDem policy forever and it would be extremely hypocritical to change it for party advantage.
3. Most important. It would remove the possibility of a government with 35% support implementing policy that is opposed by 65% - including a Faragist party crashing us out of the EU. That would need at least 50% support in a PR parliament.
In the meantime, the LibDems will play by the current FPTP rules including implementing policy on a majority obtained with a 35% vote share. That's what the other players do.
3. Most important. It would remove the possibility of a government with 35% support implementing policy that is opposed by 65% - including a Faragist party crashing us out of the EU. That would need at least 50% support in a PR parliament.
At last, we're being honest.
Let's abuse the system to make sure leavers never get anywhere near power.
Let's overturn the result of a referendum in which over 50% of people voted to leave, using a mandate taken from just 35% of the population, then let's change the law to prevent anyone from ever doing the same thing again.
Just been out with a group of pensioners who are going to cancel their donations to RNLI because of the daily mail article. Well done daily mail you really should have thought it through before putting the whole operation at risk. Don’t know if the RNLI were wrong to spend 2% overseas but it’s going to hit their financial viability.
The Daily Mail know that nothing makes their readership angry quite like the thought of their money helping to stop brown kids from drowning.
Aka 'cockroaches', ™Katie Hopkins.
But by this short sighted desire for headlines they could actually ‘sink’ the whole operation
Do you think they give a shit? They want the headlines and to spread a bit more of their hate.
The mandate is questionable. Does the lib dems managing to form a government on 30-ish% of the vote abnd revoke morally overrule a referendum where over 50% of people voted to leave?
The irony of the Lib Dems winning a majority on 35% and then implementing a program of government that isn't liked by a good proportion of the country would not be an irony. It would be a rich, fruity layer cake of irony, with irony icing, served with the most iron-y cutlery, washed down the finest glass of Chateau de Leave d'Tears. All those years the Tories have benefited from FPTP, and all this time people like me have been campaigning for PR, it would be the most exquisite of pleasures to see this happen.
Until the Brexit Party wins a majority next time around...
IF the LibDems got a majority I hope they would implement PR asap for three reasons:
1. It is the right thing to do.
2. It has been LibDem policy forever and it would be extremely hypocritical to change it for party advantage.
3. Most important. It would remove the possibility of a government with 35% support implementing policy that is opposed by 65% - including a Faragist party crashing us out of the EU. That would need at least 50% support in a PR parliament.
In the meantime, the LibDems will play by the current FPTP rules including implementing policy on a majority obtained with a 35% vote share. That's what the other players do.
3. Most important. It would remove the possibility of a government with 35% support implementing policy that is opposed by 65% - including a Faragist party crashing us out of the EU. That would need at least 50% support in a PR parliament.
At last, we're being honest.
Let's abuse the system to make sure leavers never get anywhere near power.
Let's overturn the result of a referendum in which over 50% 37.5% of people voted to leave, using a mandate taken from just 35% of the population, then let's change the law to prevent anyone from ever doing the same thing again.
Just been out with a group of pensioners who are going to cancel their donations to RNLI because of the daily mail article. Well done daily mail you really should have thought it through before putting the whole operation at risk. Don’t know if the RNLI were wrong to spend 2% overseas but it’s going to hit their financial viability.
The Daily Mail know that nothing makes their readership angry quite like the thought of their money helping to stop brown kids from drowning.
Aka 'cockroaches', ™Katie Hopkins.
But by this short sighted desire for headlines they could actually ‘sink’ the whole operation
You seriously think this is because they haven't "thought it through"? It's an entirely calculated decision
The mandate is questionable. Does the lib dems managing to form a government on 30-ish% of the vote abnd revoke morally overrule a referendum where over 50% of people voted to leave?
The irony of the Lib Dems winning a majority on 35% and then implementing a program of government that isn't liked by a good proportion of the country would not be an irony. It would be a rich, fruity layer cake of irony, with irony icing, served with the most iron-y cutlery, washed down the finest glass of Chateau de Leave d'Tears. All those years the Tories have benefited from FPTP, and all this time people like me have been campaigning for PR, it would be the most exquisite of pleasures to see this happen.
Until the Brexit Party wins a majority next time around...
Nah, having Revoked, next law is electoral reform, and the end of FPTP.
Neatly ignoring the fact that Con+UKIP was 49.4% in 2015 and Con+BXP is still polling around the 50% mark. An amount I presume would be higher if the establishment stitch up you propose was allowed to happen.
I do hope Guy Verhofstad extends his stay, and continues to offer more humorous barbs on a frequent basis. Any photographs of him and Jo Swinson having a good chuckle about Britain's many inadequacies would be particularly good.
To be honest, they're both dickheads and their rhetoric is as silly as the others.
It takes one to know one.
"It takes one to know one" is a ludicrously infantile expression and plainly not true (can only a criminal spot a criminal, a liar spot a liar or a dickhead spot a dickhead?)
Guy Verohofstadt is a towering giant compared with most UK politicians.
Comments
He also made a major strategic error earlier in refusing full devolution other than defence and foreign affairs, which would have defeated the status quo but also independence hands down.
Person1 (Labour voter, pro-EU): "I accepted the result, then the revelations made me want a second referendum, now I want revoke"
Me: "So you'll be voting Lib Dem next time round then?"
Person1: "Never. They're a bunch of Tories"
Me: "But the Tories who've defected there are on the liberal wing..."
Person1: "Doesn't matter. Still Tories. And so is Swinson. Coalition. Not voting for them"
---
Person2 (Labour voter, very very mildly pro-Remain): "This revoke thing is a big mistake. It's not going to go down well. Plus the Lib Dems are splitting the remain vote"
Me: "Splitting the Remain vote?"
Person2: "Yes, they're trying to take votes from Labour"
Me: "Is Labour in favour of Remain then?"
Person2: "Yes"
---
Conclusion: the Lib Dems are Tories and they're trying to steal votes from Labour by adopting a policy that's different from Labour and won't be popular anyway. The revoke policy is stealing votes from Labour even though it isn't what people want, except the person who does want it but won't vote for it.
Both people say they will stick with Labour. I bit my tongue pretty hard today
The mere fact the NYT even attempts to defend Ford Blasey's evidence shows what a joke they are given it was so full of holes.
On the other hand, I haven't seen the NYT doing too much digging recently into the rape allegations against the (Democratic) Lt Gov of Virginia...
If you're comfortable with that, then I also presume you're comfortable with Nigel Farage leading us out of the EU on a no referendum, no deal, no further negotiation policy at a future GE?
It’s misleading. It’s pathetic. It’s dangerous.
All those years the Tories have benefited from FPTP, and all this time people like me have been campaigning for PR, it would be the most exquisite of pleasures to see this happen.
We may get a fraction of our own money back on priorities not chosen by our representatives but that doesn't change that we spend a ton of money on EU membership.
As I said, misleading, dangerous, pathetic.
Money I'd rather spend on our own priorities, though spending 25% on Welfare excluding pensions is a ton of money. What austerity?
Something you are so full of glee about but if Labour do the same, you’d be frothing at the mouth.
Have a source for that claim?
Labour succeeds in spite of Corbyn, whereas the Conservative score is more dependent on the opinion of its leader.
Brand.
We get more out of it from the access to markets it provides us than we loss. As I won’t be effected and would likely profit from it personally I’m happy for Boris to have his experiment. If it gets really bad I’ll watch it from the beachside villa I’m looking at tomorrow a
Either that or this Pet Shop Boys concert is really happening like this.
Many nationalist voters want independence precisely so they can control foreign affairs and defence policy.
half the share of VAT receipts in Scotland being assigned to the Scottish government's budget
and power over Air Passenger Duty and Aggregates Levy.
Which is why revoke is the dumbest idea ever. It turns every election into a referendum on the EU. To keep us in indefinitely remainers would have to win every election, to drag us out without a deal brexiteers only have to win once.
But Mr Cameron's destroying the middle ground like that was a major contribution to the jump in the independence vote from about 22-25% at the Edinburgh Agreement to about 52% at the time of the great panic and the Vow by Mr Cameron et aliis.
The failure to offer such a positive option nearly lost Scotland in 2014, and it was only saved at the price of some serious breaches of good faith.
That reflects, arguably, on Mr Cameron's strategic thinking ...
Sweet justice.
I'm not sure but it chimes with my understanding.
A very complicated situation because the court could rule the prorogation was lawful in England and unlawful in Scotland .
The court will be desperate to avoid that situation because that would mean it would have to rule it unlawful for the whole UK.
They will try and come to a decision that can rule the same on both counts but of course that might not happen .
I expect a constitutional convention leading to so co-federal decision making powers (weighted) across Westminster, Holyrood, Stormont and Cardiff Bay on foreign and trade policy matters might provide a better answer.
On the one hand, revoke and then PR would make me very happy, so that's a reason to do the above.
On the other hand, it would make some Conservatives extremely unhappy. So that's also a reason to do it.
1. It is the right thing to do.
2. It has been LibDem policy forever and it would be extremely hypocritical to change it for party advantage.
3. Most important. It would remove the possibility of a government with 35% support implementing policy that is opposed by 65% - including a Faragist party crashing us out of the EU. That would need at least 50% support in a PR parliament.
In the meantime, the LibDems will play by the current FPTP rules including implementing policy on a majority obtained with a 35% vote share. That's what the other players do.
EDIT Snaps 9:13 9:16 9:21
Let's abuse the system to make sure leavers never get anywhere near power.
Let's overturn the result of a referendum in which over 50% of people voted to leave, using a mandate taken from just 35% of the population, then let's change the law to prevent anyone from ever doing the same thing again.
Remainer "democracy" in action.
It takes one to know one.
Guy Verohofstadt is a towering giant compared with most UK politicians.