If no deal hadn’t been shoved down the throats of Remainers then perhaps we could have just moved on .
The Tories forced the referendum on the country , own the chaos and division , even when they lost their majority they acted as if a deal should be delivered just for the Tories and not the whole country .
Then at the last minute May decided in desperation to try and find a compromise , only then the no dealers had already hijacked the vote .
So why on earth should Remainers accept that . .
As far as I can see both Leavers and Remainers are being equally tribal at present.
I’m not disagreeing . I’m willing to accept a compromise but won’t accept a no deal .
EEA. The answer has always been EEA.
Unfortunately that’s not a pure enough Brexit for the ERG . And Farage who of course was lauding Norway suddenly hates that idea.
Sadly I fear the room for compromise is lying in a ditch !
A fresh referendum currently looks like the least worst way forward. For that reason I expect it will be spurned.
It’s pointless - the last two referendums in the last 5 years have been ignored by the losers.
Why expect the third to be any different ?
If there is one thing that Indyref and the EU ref have proved it is that losing a referendum isn't the end of the matter.
Hopefully, it will be a while before a politician sees a problem, thinks, this is too difficult, divisive, challenging and complex. I know what will settle it once and for all.
As for being on topic, parliament does finally seem to be getting close to agreement, albeit they are not there yet. Playing for time until opinion changed has very much worked, but some of the people clamouring for a GE seem to have woken up to the fact that the Tories might actually win it even if offering no deal, or that a remain majority might split the vote inefficiently. Therefore, a referndum is less risky since the worst case scenario is a deal, if they even enact that result, and of course are confident of remain winning in any case.
Which I think it would - enough people hate a deal of any kind, or have changed their mind, or would stay home in disgust, to see remain win.
Any second referendum will be won on the backs of democratic Remainers, not Leavers.
How the new Leave campaign conducts itself will be crucial. If it's "tell them again" or "honour the vote" they could win fairly clearly.
If Farage, Banks, Francois and others all shout betrayal from the rooftops, say staying would be better than this, and argue for abstention or more direct action, it will be over before it starts.
I suspect it will be close and depend on the perceived effectiveness of the Leave option. If the specific Leave option is believed to put the matter to bed without massive disruption, I suspect it will win. Otherwise not. I don't think democracy informs the decision. This is a democratic exercise after all.
I think given so many leavers won't like the leave option that is offered even if there is not a mass stay at home reaction it will lose. Say for instance May's deal was the leave option - even if Boris, or god forbid even Farage brought themselves to back it, their message would basically be 'we said this thing was absolute garbage, and I hate it, now please vote for it'.
That'll fire up the leave voting masses of 2016.
The most likely response to a second referendum is a mass official boycott by Leave followed by a promise to ignore the result and continue the campaign to Leave. Any Remainers thinking this will settle anything are deluded.
Leavers never voting again is certainly not something that would trouble my repose.
The Overton window is moving very quickly these days. The idea that we wouldn't have an election until post brexit seemed outlandish only a couple weeks ago. Now it seems more and more likely. More and more MPs suggest the idea and it becomes normalised. It's all starting to feel a bit like Trump's style of government, where everyday a new scandal or crazy story pushes yesterday's one off the news agenda, and it just becomes accepted. I think the Corbyn the Chicken narrative has already fallen away. Next is the idea that an election is urgent at all.
Really not hard to see now that Boris resigns to avoid asking for an extension, the EU offer a long extension rather than the 3 months to the caretaker PM (Corbyn or otherwise). Limited plan of government agrees to put the existing May deal through against remain in a legally binding second referendum, with an election to follow soon after the result.
+1
This looks like a very plausible sequence to me.
And who is supposed to run the country during the 12 months that it would take to organise a second referendum? What about the budget for a start? And what about any other legislation? If the remain alliance is running the country from the backbenches how is anyone supposed to hold them to account?
Who’s been ‘running the country’ since 2017? Certainly not the government.
The Overton window is moving very quickly these days. The idea that we wouldn't have an election until post brexit seemed outlandish only a couple weeks ago. Now it seems more and more likely. More and more MPs suggest the idea and it becomes normalised. It's all starting to feel a bit like Trump's style of government, where everyday a new scandal or crazy story pushes yesterday's one off the news agenda, and it just becomes accepted. I think the Corbyn the Chicken narrative has already fallen away. Next is the idea that an election is urgent at all.
Really not hard to see now that Boris resigns to avoid asking for an extension, the EU offer a long extension rather than the 3 months to the caretaker PM (Corbyn or otherwise). Limited plan of government agrees to put the existing May deal through against remain in a legally binding second referendum, with an election to follow soon after the result.
+1
This looks like a very plausible sequence to me.
And who is supposed to run the country during the 12 months that it would take to organise a second referendum? What about the budget for a start? And what about any other legislation? If the remain alliance is running the country from the backbenches how is anyone supposed to hold them to account?
I believe the electoral commision suggested 22 weeks was required to organised and run a 2nd referendum, not 12 months.
Given we have experienced 3 years of effective non-government due to Brexit, I think we can cope with a further 6 months.
Russia and Turkey can fuck off. I don't know where the idea has come from that democracy is a gold standard and the more you have of it the more virtuous you are. Direct democracy is a terrible thing, which is why it has no place in our constitution. If you had unlimited amounts of it you would have the death penalty restored in three seconds flat, and popular votes determining the verdict in murder trials. There is precisely one situation in which referendums are permissible, and that is in questions of self-determination. Border polls and Indy refs are therefore acceptable. With those exceptions we need a law declaring that referendums are unconstitutional and illegal, that any which have been held are null and void, and that proposing any new ones is an offence punishable as treason.
Listen to yourself.
I am guessing you had an outrage overload and failed to read past that point. Do so.
Read on to the bit where you suggest proposing a referendum should be an offence carrying a life sentence? Don't worry, I read that bit too.
The life sentence bit was perhaps an overstatement. But if you are that keen on democracies why not go and live in one? You don't at the moment, you live in an oligarchy where you get a token choice between two sets of oligarchs once every five years. Either that is how the country should be run, or direct democracy is, and it is trying to mix and match between the two which has put us where we are now. Are you happy with where we are now?
Andrew Bridgen on c4 news made an excellent point. The remainers winning meaningful vote at the supreme dalek empowered himself to torpedo May’s Deal. There are unforeseen consequences to many of these manoeuvres, for example minus the election is the extra long rougeing still in Boris interest or not? Maybe he would now like the Supreme Court to give him chance toshorten the back end of it to get some stuff through Parliament like the hugely popular mini deal on medicines. There’s been mini deals already on air and fish, Boris can subtract medicines out the mouth of every remainer argument given parliamentary time. Would leavers not like that? And not a single remainer in Parliament could possibly vote it down.
I've read this comment several times now and I don't understand a word of it.
1. Remainers winning right for parliament to have meaningful vote allowed brexiteer hands to strangle Mays softer brexit. 2. Without an election does Boris still want and need a longer suspension? 3. 2 mini deals already agreed on air and fish. The third mini deal stops all talk of medicines not getting through as part of no deal, proving my argument Boris could do himself a lot of good recalling Parliament earlier to help get this sort of planning across
My understanding with medicines was that it was more a logistics problem than a trade problem and that we need a solution whereby medicines and other high criticality goods did not go into the queues or have to compete with less critical goods for the decreased import-export capacity at Dover-Calais.
We laughed at Chris Grayling and his ferry company start up, but the task of providing a by pass route for critical goods was, at heart, a key one.
OK, we may need logistical help and goodwill from across the channel to achieve by-pass for medicines, and it is a reasonable hope that would be forthcoming, but the only actual mini deal of use to the sector is one that eased the Dover-Calais situation as a whole. In other words, The Deal.
A fresh referendum currently looks like the least worst way forward. For that reason I expect it will be spurned.
It’s pointless - the last two referendums in the last 5 years have been ignored by the losers.
Why expect the third to be any different ?
If there is one thing that Indyref and the EU ref have proved it is that losing a referendum isn't the end of the matter.
Hopefully, it will be a while before a politician sees a problem, thinks, this is too difficult, divisive, challenging and complex. I know what will settle it once and for all.
What concerns me is this doubling down on failure. To move on it is necessary for people to realise the whole thing has failed, so we look to mitigate the damage. But seeing Brexit was sold on a false premise, it engenders a dangerous sense of betrayal.
As for being on topic, parliament does finally seem to be getting close to agreement, albeit they are not there yet. Playing for time until opinion changed has very much worked, but some of the people clamouring for a GE seem to have woken up to the fact that the Tories might actually win it even if offering no deal, or that a remain majority might split the vote inefficiently. Therefore, a referndum is less risky since the worst case scenario is a deal, if they even enact that result, and of course are confident of remain winning in any case.
Which I think it would - enough people hate a deal of any kind, or have changed their mind, or would stay home in disgust, to see remain win.
Any second referendum will be won on the backs of democratic Remainers, not Leavers.
How the new Leave campaign conducts itself will be crucial. If it's "tell them again" or "honour the vote" they could win fairly clearly.
If Farage, Banks, Francois and others all shout betrayal from the rooftops, say staying would be better than this, and argue for abstention or more direct action, it will be over before it starts.
I suspect it will be close and depend on the perceived effectiveness of the Leave option. If the specific Leave option is believed to put the matter to bed without massive disruption, I suspect it will win. Otherwise not. I don't think democracy informs the decision. This is a democratic exercise after all.
I think given so many leavers won't like the leave option that is offered even if there is not a mass stay at home reaction it will lose. Say for instance May's deal was the leave option - even if Boris, or god forbid even Farage brought themselves to back it, their message would basically be 'we said this thing was absolute garbage, and I hate it, now please vote for it'.
That'll fire up the leave voting masses of 2016.
The most likely response to a second referendum is a mass official boycott by Leave followed by a promise to ignore the result and continue the campaign to Leave. Any Remainers thinking this will settle anything are deluded.
Leavers never voting again is certainly not something that would trouble my repose.
Remainers seem to think once they've stopped Brexit everything will go back to "normal" again. If anything things are likely to get even uglier.
Jo Swinson seems pretty good at coalition and consensus building.
Which is surprising given that the rumours are she's a very difficult person to work with.
Rumours? No. Solid evidence.
Swinson ain’t new you know. She’s been around for years, prior to her involuntary sabbatical. She’s got a reputation for being a true dunderheid. Totally incapable of building a functioning team.
The more folk get to know her, the more they dislike her.
But the Lib Dems are stuck with her. She’s so young I don’t know how they’re going to finesse her disappearance. But disappear she must.
A fresh referendum currently looks like the least worst way forward. For that reason I expect it will be spurned.
It’s pointless - the last two referendums in the last 5 years have been ignored by the losers.
Why expect the third to be any different ?
If there is one thing that Indyref and the EU ref have proved it is that losing a referendum isn't the end of the matter.
Hopefully, it will be a while before a politician sees a problem, thinks, this is too difficult, divisive, challenging and complex. I know what will settle it once and for all.
What concerns me is this doubling down on failure. To move on it is necessary for people to realise the whole thing has failed, so we look to mitigate the damage. But seeing Brexit was sold on a false premise, it engenders a dangerous sense of betrayal.
Someone needs to say the unsayable. Not just on Brexit, but on the UK as a polity. Right now, the fault is always with the other side, rather than with the system of governance itself.
A fresh referendum currently looks like the least worst way forward. For that reason I expect it will be spurned.
It’s pointless - the last two referendums in the last 5 years have been ignored by the losers.
Why expect the third to be any different ?
If there is one thing that Indyref and the EU ref have proved it is that losing a referendum isn't the end of the matter.
There's not really any reason why it should be.
You lose an election, you don't just give up, abandon your positions and let the winners get on with the politics on a free run.
OK, the indyref and the EU ref are different in that the status quo was voted for in one and against in the other but in both cases the results have been sufficiently close enough to not decisively settle the discussion.
In the EU ref case, the subsequent problem has been the leavers inability to agree on what leaving actually means and therefore failing to present and deliver a coherent plan to leave. The secondary problem is that there is insufficient scope in our limited party political system to segment both by party and by Brexit stance, it's got to be one or the other particularly when your government is not starting with a majority of 50+.
If everyone was thinking really clearly then after Cameron resigned a GONU should have been formed given both Labour and the Conservatives voted to trigger Article 50, the aim should have been to deliver Brexit and then get back to the normal left/right political shenanigans.
But of course that was never going to happen, and much of the mess since can be attributed to that inability to set one or other of Brexit and party politics aside temporarily.
As for being on topic, parliament does finally seem to be getting close to agreement, albeit they are not there yet. Playing for time until opinion changed has very much worked, but some of the people clamouring for a GE seem to have woken up to the fact that the Tories might actually win it even if offering no deal, or that a remain majority might split the vote inefficiently. Therefore, a referndum is less risky since the worst case scenario is a deal, if they even enact that result, and of course are confident of remain winning in any case.
Which I think it would - enough people hate a deal of any kind, or have changed their mind, or would stay home in disgust, to see remain win.
Any second referendum will be won on the backs of democratic Remainers, not Leavers.
How the new Leave campaign conducts itself will be crucial. If it's "tell them again" or "honour the vote" they could win fairly clearly.
If Farage, Banks, Francois and others all shout betrayal from the rooftops, say staying would be better than this, and argue for abstention or more direct action, it will be over before it starts.
I suspect it will be close and depend on the perceived effectiveness of the Leave option. If the specific Leave option is believed to put the matter to bed without massive disruption, I suspect it will win. Otherwise not. I don't think democracy informs the decision. This is a democratic exercise after all.
I think given so many
That'll fire up the leave voting masses of 2016.
The most likely response to a second referendum is a mass official boycott by Leave followed by a promise to ignore the result and continue the campaign to Leave. Any Remainers thinking this will settle anything are deluded.
Leavers never voting again is certainly not something that would trouble my repose.
Remainers seem to think once they've stopped Brexit everything will go back to "normal" again. If anything things are likely to get even uglier.
I think that pretty nailed on whoever wins a further referendum. Brexits legacy will be as bitter and longlasting as the miners strike.
Indeed in many ways Brexit is the legacy of the destruction of traditional working class communities by the miners strike and similar deindustrialisation. Revenge is a dish best served cold. Served cold to London and the South East.
Jo Swinson seems pretty good at coalition and consensus building.
Which is surprising given that the rumours are she's a very difficult person to work with.
Rumours? No. Solid evidence.
Swinson ain’t new you know. She’s been around for years, prior to her involuntary sabbatical. She’s got a reputation for being a true dunderheid. Totally incapable of building a functioning team.
The more folk get to know her, the more they dislike her.
But the Lib Dems are stuck with her. She’s so young I don’t know how they’re going to finesse her disappearance. But disappear she must.
I think you may be showing an unconscious bias there Stuart.
Jo Swinson seems pretty good at coalition and consensus building.
Which is surprising given that the rumours are she's a very difficult person to work with.
Rumours? No. Solid evidence.
Swinson ain’t new you know. She’s been around for years, prior to her involuntary sabbatical. She’s got a reputation for being a true dunderheid. Totally incapable of building a functioning team.
The more folk get to know her, the more they dislike her.
But the Lib Dems are stuck with her. She’s so young I don’t know how they’re going to finesse her disappearance. But disappear she must.
I think she's doing a super job. And I was initially sceptical.
Jo Swinson seems pretty good at coalition and consensus building.
Which is surprising given that the rumours are she's a very difficult person to work with.
Rumours? No. Solid evidence.
Swinson ain’t new you know. She’s been around for years, prior to her involuntary sabbatical. She’s got a reputation for being a true dunderheid. Totally incapable of building a functioning team.
The more folk get to know her, the more they dislike her.
But the Lib Dems are stuck with her. She’s so young I don’t know how they’re going to finesse her disappearance. But disappear she must.
I think she's doing a super job. And I was initially sceptical.
She does seem to be building consensus, as @Gallowgate noted.
Jo Swinson seems pretty good at coalition and consensus building.
Which is surprising given that the rumours are she's a very difficult person to work with.
Rumours? No. Solid evidence.
Swinson ain’t new you know. She’s been around for years, prior to her involuntary sabbatical. She’s got a reputation for being a true dunderheid. Totally incapable of building a functioning team.
The more folk get to know her, the more they dislike her.
But the Lib Dems are stuck with her. She’s so young I don’t know how they’re going to finesse her disappearance. But disappear she must.
I think she's doing a super job. And I was initially sceptical.
Yes, I find her to be better than I expected. She is still young, and occasionally puts a foot wrong*. Nonetheless she is streets ahead of Jezza and Bozo.
*I think it wrong to speak of Revoke as policy, before it is discussed and agreed by Conference.
Much as I like Letwin, I can't see this happening. Neither Johnson nor Corbyn nor any elder statesperson would have a sufficient majority to negotiate a Brexit alternative with any confidence, so an early referendum would be Remain vs No Deal. We should have learned that it's unwise to offer a choice if we think that one option is disastrous - voters expect Parliament to offer them reasonable choices.
The Speaker, addressing a meeting tonight has threatened “procedural creativity” to thwart Mr. Johnson’s attempts to bypass the Benn bill. Our parliament appears to be in its end days
As for being on topic, parliament does finally seem to be getting close to agreement, albeit they are not there yet. Playing for time until opinion changed has very much worked, but some of the people clamouring for a GE seem to have woken up to the fact that the Tories might actually win it even if offering no deal, or that a remain majority might split the vote inefficiently. Therefore, a referndum is less risky since the worst case scenario is a deal, if they even enact that result, and of course are confident of remain winning in any case.
Which I think it would - enough people hate a deal of any kind, or have changed their mind, or would stay home in disgust, to see remain win.
Any second referendum will be won on the backs of democratic Remainers, not Leavers.
How the new Leave campaign conducts itself will be crucial. If it's "tell them again" or "honour the vote" they could win fairly clearly.
If Farage, Banks, Francois and others all shout betrayal from the rooftops, say staying would be better than this, and argue for abstention or more direct action, it will be over before it starts.
I suspect it will be close and depend on the perceived effectiveness of the Leave option. If the specific Leave option is believed to put the matter to bed without massive disruption, I suspect it will win. Otherwise not. I don't think democracy informs the decision. This is a democratic exercise after all.
I think given so many leavers won't like the leave option that is offered even if there is not a mass stay at home reaction it will lose. Say for instance May's deal was the leave option - even if Boris, or god forbid even Farage brought themselves to back it, their message would basically be 'we said this thing was absolute garbage, and I hate it, now please vote for it'.
That'll fire up the leave voting masses of 2016.
The most likely response to a second referendum is a mass official boycott by Leave followed by a promise to ignore the result and continue the campaign to Leave. Any Remainers thinking this will settle anything are deluded.
Leavers never voting again is certainly not something that would trouble my repose.
Remainers seem to think once they've stopped Brexit everything will go back to "normal" again. If anything things are likely to get even uglier.
It's not particularly ugly now is it? Most of the country just gets on with it.
Jo Swinson seems pretty good at coalition and consensus building.
Which is surprising given that the rumours are she's a very difficult person to work with.
Rumours? No. Solid evidence.
Swinson ain’t new you know. She’s been around for years, prior to her involuntary sabbatical. She’s got a reputation for being a true dunderheid. Totally incapable of building a functioning team.
The more folk get to know her, the more they dislike her.
But the Lib Dems are stuck with her. She’s so young I don’t know how they’re going to finesse her disappearance. But disappear she must.
I think you may be showing an unconscious bias there Stuart.
SNP supporters think every seat in Scotland is theirs by entitlement and don't take kindly to incumbents of other parties occupying seats that are rightfully theirs. Their contempt for these interlopers doesn't discriminate particularly.
Her jackets are OK I think, but it's her earrings that misfire sometimes!
Streets ahead of that sack of spuds of a PM though. Jezza is now quite a snappy dresser.
I wouldn’t go that far.
Politicians are rarely well dressed, but Jezza does a nice line in suits now. Perhaps he has a personal shopper, but at least he listens to advice. His suits are well cut and fit well. It helps being slim.
The thing with legal opinion is there’s rarely agreement between the profession .
So you’ll find a mix of views on the chances of success or failure for next weeks SC hearing .
The issue which is a big one is the government wants a Queens Speech . If the court strikes down the suspension. What next ? Does the PM apply for another one ?
As for being on topic, parliament does finally seem to be getting close to agreement, albeit they are not there yet. Playing for time until opinion changed has very much worked, but some of the people clamouring for a GE seem to have woken up to the fact that the Tories might actually win it even if offering no deal, or that a remain majority might split the vote inefficiently. Therefore, a referndum is less risky since the worst case scenario is a deal, if they even enact that result, and of course are confident of remain winning in any case.
Which I think it would - enough people hate a deal of any kind, or have changed their mind, or would stay home in disgust, to see remain win.
Any second referendum will be won on the backs of democratic Remainers, not Leavers.
How the new Leave campaign conducts itself will be crucial. If it's "tell them again" or "honour the vote" they could win fairly clearly.
If Farage, Banks, Francois and others all shout betrayal from the rooftops, say staying would be better than this, and argue for abstention or more direct action, it will be over before it starts.
I suspect it will be close and depend on the perceived effectiveness of the Leave option. If the specific Leave option is believed to put the matter to bed without massive disruption, I suspect it will win. Otherwise not. I don't think democracy informs the decision. This is a democratic exercise after all.
I think given so many leavers won't like the leave option that is offered even if there is not a mass stay at home reaction it will lose. Say for instance May's deal was the leave option - even if Boris, or god forbid even Farage brought themselves to back it, their message would basically be 'we said this thing was absolute garbage, and I hate it, now please vote for it'.
That'll fire up the leave voting masses of 2016.
The most likely response to a second referendum is a mass official boycott by Leave followed by a promise to ignore the result and continue the campaign to Leave. Any Remainers thinking this will settle anything are deluded.
Leavers never voting again is certainly not something that would trouble my repose.
Oh, they'll vote. And you really, REALLY aren't gonna like who they vote in.
Much as I like Letwin, I can't see this happening. Neither Johnson nor Corbyn nor any elder statesperson would have a sufficient majority to negotiate a Brexit alternative with any confidence, so an early referendum would be Remain vs No Deal. We should have learned that it's unwise to offer a choice if we think that one option is disastrous - voters expect Parliament to offer them reasonable choices.
But who knows in these craxy days?
Those are both questionable destinations.
I think there must be some form of cognitive dysfunctionality on this who see revoke as any form of solution .
Lets go back to the situation that created the anger and angst against the EU without addressing any of the core issues. Nothing more than stupidity to adopt that myopic position.
Not only that, our semi detached half in half out membership which is almost designed to cause friction and discontent is likely to be more destabilising as the core Euro states will quite rightly follow policy to benefit thier position, generating greater conflict and brexit anger.
I would be fascinated to see a convincing arguement as to why revocation would give us more harmony than our bespoke membership have us in the past.
The DUP representative sounded confident of a deal on QT
They’re getting desperate now . After all their hubris of the last few years the penny is dropping . They’ll own a no deal and will be punished by voters .
Well it is certainly true that everyone knows the real reason for the prorogation, it's presumably just a question of whether being shifty about the real reason is indeed unlawful as the scottish judges think.
Yep. We need to know how she is voting and also Mrs Duffy.
That gives us the result of the election - perhaps even the seat totals.
You can stick your yougovs up your arse.
Nah, we need David Herdson to go canvassing.
I really hate canvassing. Never enjoyed it.
I mean, there's something frightfully un-British about hassling someone on the doorstep. Now and again, I have a very interesting conversation. Other times people are very rude. It's terrifying ringing the doorbell.
I do it out of duty.
To be honest what I won't miss is those snapback letterboxes that guillotine your fingers.
...And the unspeakable curs who place their letterboxes at the very bottom of the door.
SNIP
Can someone explain how two courts have failed to find Boris guilty like the Scottish court did? Documents in public domain prove it was planned not as standard shorter suspension but deliberately longer to avoid scrutiny? That is the fact now? It’s an open and shut case. if Supreme Court can’t read the documents and conclude its extra longer than need be to avoid sensitive scrutiny that is important part of British Democracy, then its nearer a supreme dalek than a Supreme Court of justice, is it not?
I'm no lawyer, but they are different legal systems for starters, and even if it was to avoid scrutiny (which we know it was) that might not be illegal even if it is clearly wrong I would think (and slightly different questions were raised anyway). The courts are not there to say if things are wrong, but if they are legal.
Or such is my general view at any rate. Clearly different lawyers are taking different views even in Scotland, and I'll trust the collective view of the court. But it seems quite possible they could conclude the government was being less than honest and yet no law was broken.
you sound like a weak vacillating fanny , it is bad but should we ignore he is a crook
The DUP representative sounded confident of a deal on QT
They’re getting desperate now . After all their hubris of the last few years the penny is dropping . They’ll own a no deal and will be punished by voters .
But there's a limit to how damaged they can be, given politics in NI. Outside a unification poll they can take a hit and still be standing.
Has the UK put any proposals to the EU yet? Here's hoping for a good one!
The DUP representative sounded confident of a deal on QT
They’re getting desperate now . After all their hubris of the last few years the penny is dropping . They’ll own a no deal and will be punished by voters .
But there's a limit to how damaged they can be, given politics in NI. Outside a unification poll they can take a hit and still be standing.
Has the UK put any proposals to the EU yet? Here's hoping for a good one!
That unification poll is both closer in time and closer in outcome than the DUP can be comfortable with.
Jo Swinson seems pretty good at coalition and consensus building.
Which is surprising given that the rumours are she's a very difficult person to work with.
Rumours? No. Solid evidence.
Swinson ain’t new you know. She’s been around for years, prior to her involuntary sabbatical. She’s got a reputation for being a true dunderheid. Totally incapable of building a functioning team.
The more folk get to know her, the more they dislike her.
But the Lib Dems are stuck with her. She’s so young I don’t know how they’re going to finesse her disappearance. But disappear she must.
I think she's doing a super job. And I was initially sceptical.
Jo Swinson seems pretty good at coalition and consensus building.
Which is surprising given that the rumours are she's a very difficult person to work with.
Rumours? No. Solid evidence.
Swinson ain’t new you know. She’s been around for years, prior to her involuntary sabbatical. She’s got a reputation for being a true dunderheid. Totally incapable of building a functioning team.
The more folk get to know her, the more they dislike her.
But the Lib Dems are stuck with her. She’s so young I don’t know how they’re going to finesse her disappearance. But disappear she must.
I think you may be showing an unconscious bias there Stuart.
SNP supporters think every seat in Scotland is theirs by entitlement and don't take kindly to incumbents of other parties occupying seats that are rightfully theirs. Their contempt for these interlopers doesn't discriminate particularly.
Her jackets are OK I think, but it's her earrings that misfire sometimes!
Streets ahead of that sack of spuds of a PM though. Jezza is now quite a snappy dresser.
I wouldn’t go that far.
Politicians are rarely well dressed, but Jezza does a nice line in suits now. Perhaps he has a personal shopper, but at least he listens to advice. His suits are well cut and fit well. It helps being slim.
I agree. I would say Corbyn is comfortable being a well dressed older man. His image, I would say lends him a gravitas, somebody you should listen to. Once he opens his mouth and starts talking his politics, you may think, wait a minute, what's this nonsense?
Well it is certainly true that everyone knows the real reason for the prorogation, it's presumably just a question of whether being shifty about the real reason is indeed unlawful as the scottish judges think.
Yep. We need to know how she is voting and also Mrs Duffy.
That gives us the result of the election - perhaps even the seat totals.
You can stick your yougovs up your arse.
Nah, we need David Herdson to go canvassing.
I really hate canvassing. Never enjoyed it.
I mean, there's something frightfully un-British about hassling someone on the doorstep. Now and again, I have a very interesting conversation. Other times people are very rude. It's terrifying ringing the doorbell.
I do it out of duty.
To be honest what I won't miss is those snapback letterboxes that guillotine your fingers.
...And the unspeakable curs who place their letterboxes at the very bottom of the door.
SNIP
Can someone expourt of justice, is it not?
I'm no lawy
you sound like a weak vacillating fanny , it is bad but should we ignore he is a crook
If the view of the highest court is he has not broken the law then it is not weak to suggest it is bad but not illegal, and your calling him a crook in that circumstance would not make you look strong or determined, just wrong.
If he's broken the law he's a crook, if he hasn't he isn't a crook, but he's still behaved terribly and I think he should face serious political consequences for that. I don't see what is vacillating about that. Is your implication that he is a crook even if the judgement is he hasn't broken the law? That would just makes you sound demented macolm.
Not that I am disputing I am a weak vacillating fanny. But your assertion that he is a crook may or may be borne out, and if the court says he isn't if you stick to your guns and say he is you're not proving your strong manly credentials, you're proving you think partisan point scoring is more valid than the law.
If anything I am doing the opposite of vacillating by making clear I think he has behaved terribly whether or not he broke the law.
The DUP representative sounded confident of a deal on QT
They’re getting desperate now . After all their hubris of the last few years the penny is dropping . They’ll own a no deal and will be punished by voters .
But there's a limit to how damaged they can be, given politics in NI. Outside a unification poll they can take a hit and still be standing.
Has the UK put any proposals to the EU yet? Here's hoping for a good one!
"Speaking after the MEPs’ briefing with Barnier, the president of the European parliament, David Sassoli, told reporters: “We would like there to be initiatives to discuss but unfortunately there aren’t any.”"
If Letwin's plan falls down, it's because there's no majority in Parliament for doing this sort of thing. There's a majority for stopping the other guy doing what he wants to do, but that's not the same.
They can't do it from the backbenches. They'd need to VoNC the PM, form a government to pass a referendum bill, decide who will lead it, and keep that coalition together while the electoral commission does its thing. The scrutiny on that Govt - beaten at the last election, carrying a single unpopular policy on which they don't quite agree and which wasn't in their manifestos, led by someone who wasn't a party leader, would be unrelenting.
Another referendum before end 2020 should be a 15/1 shot. Before the end of 2019 should be 100/1
As for being on topic, parliament does finally seem to be getting close to agreement, albeit they are not there yet. Playing for time until opinion changed has very much worked, but some of the people clamouring for a GE seem to have woken up to the fact that the Tories might actually win it even if offering no deal, or that a remain majority might split the vote inefficiently. Therefore, a referndum is less risky since the worst case scenario is a deal, if they even enact that result, and of course are confident of remain winning in any case.
Which I think it would - enough people hate a deal of any kind, or have changed their mind, or would stay home in disgust, to see remain win.
Any second referendum will be won on the backs of democratic Remainers, not Leavers.
How the new Leave campaign conducts itself will be crucial. If it's "tell them again" or "honour the vote" they could win fairly clearly.
If Farage, Banks, Francois and others all shout betrayal from the rooftops, say staying would be better than this, and argue for abstention or more direct action, it will be over before it starts.
I suspect it will be close and depend on the perceived effectiveness of the Leave option. If the specific Leave option is believed to put the matter to bed without massive disruption, I suspect it will win. Otherwise not. I don't think democracy informs the decision. This is a democratic exercise after all.
I think given so many leavers won't like the leave option that is offered even if there is not a mass stay at home reaction it will lose. Say for instance May's deal was the leave option - even if Boris, or god forbid even Farage brought themselves to back it, their message would basically be 'we said this thing was absolute garbage, and I hate it, now please vote for it'.
That'll fire up the leave voting masses of 2016.
The most likely response to a second referendum is a mass official boycott by Leave followed by a promise to ignore the result and continue the campaign to Leave. Any Remainers thinking this will settle anything are deluded.
Leavers never voting again is certainly not something that would trouble my repose.
Oh, they'll vote. And you really, REALLY aren't gonna like who they vote in.
The Brexit Party? What difference would that make given most Tories back the BXP policy anyway?
The DUP representative sounded confident of a deal on QT
They’re getting desperate now . After all their hubris of the last few years the penny is dropping . They’ll own a no deal and will be punished by voters .
But there's a limit to how damaged they can be, given politics in NI. Outside a unification poll they can take a hit and still be standing.
Has the UK put any proposals to the EU yet? Here's hoping for a good one!
That unification poll is both closer in time and closer in outcome than the DUP can be comfortable with.
But do they believe that? They seem entirely unconcerned, given their constant obstructive behaviour. They might well be wrong, but they don't seem like changing their behaviour in fear of that.
Jo Swinson seems pretty good at coalition and consensus building.
Which is surprising given that the rumours are she's a very difficult person to work with.
Rumours? No. Solid evidence.
Swinson ain’t new you know. She’s been around for years, prior to her involuntary sabbatical. She’s got a reputation for being a true dunderheid. Totally incapable of building a functioning team.
The more folk get to know her, the more they dislike her.
But the Lib Dems are stuck with her. She’s so young I don’t know how they’re going to finesse her disappearance. But disappear she must.
I think you may be showing an unconscious bias there Stuart.
SNP supporters think every seat in Scotland is theirs by entitlement and don't take kindly to incumbents of other parties occupying seats that are rightfully theirs. Their contempt for these interlopers doesn't discriminate particularly.
Er, is it not more likely that they just politically oppose their opponents rather than think every seat is theirs by entitlement? I don't think you win so many seats by entitlement.
The DUP representative sounded confident of a deal on QT
They’re getting desperate now . After all their hubris of the last few years the penny is dropping . They’ll own a no deal and will be punished by voters .
But there's a limit to how damaged they can be, given politics in NI. Outside a unification poll they can take a hit and still be standing.
Has the UK put any proposals to the EU yet? Here's hoping for a good one!
That unification poll is both closer in time and closer in outcome than the DUP can be comfortable with.
But do they believe that? They seem entirely unconcerned, given their constant obstructive behaviour. They might well be wrong, but they don't seem like changing their behaviour in fear of that.
I don't think anyone could accuse the DUP of bending in the wind! They may break in it though.
'Credible' leave option, sure. Just don't waste to much time applying a fresh coat of paint to the WA to make it 'credible' please, just get on with it.
Her jackets are OK I think, but it's her earrings that misfire sometimes!
Streets ahead of that sack of spuds of a PM though. Jezza is now quite a snappy dresser.
I wouldn’t go that far.
Politicians are rarely well dressed, but Jezza does a nice line in suits now. Perhaps he has a personal shopper, but at least he listens to advice. His suits are well cut and fit well. It helps being slim.
I agree. I would say Corbyn is comfortable being a well dressed older man. His image, I would say lends him a gravitas, somebody you should listen to. Once he opens his mouth and starts talking his politics, you may think, wait a minute, what's this nonsense?
Now he is not scruffy Corbyn's general demeanour is fine. He's got a decent voice, he's genial most of the time and if can avoid the ranty stuff and the petulant outbursts he has at times, he's not offputting. Boris is more of a frenetic, entertaining shambles that I guess he hopes comes across as authentic and with a confidence we presume is at least partly earned. I think the problem with that style is it loses its effectiveness after awhile, it's exhausting.
Reminds me a bit of the one in my neck of the woods a few months ago - not a good area for Labour but for various reasons they had risen to the teens/twenties, and saw that collapse in favour of the genuine contenders in the area, the LDs (though not a huge rise in this case). A scenario the LDs will hope will play out across the SW, given all the Labour second places.
Her jackets are OK I think, but it's her earrings that misfire sometimes!
Streets ahead of that sack of spuds of a PM though. Jezza is now quite a snappy dresser.
I wouldn’t go that far.
Politicians are rarely well dressed, but Jezza does a nice line in suits now. Perhaps he has a personal shopper, but at least he listens to advice. His suits are well cut and fit well. It helps being slim.
He is definitely under the sartorial thumb of an aide. And, whoever she is (I assume it’s a she, it might not be!) she has done a transformative job.
The DUP representative sounded confident of a deal on QT
They’re getting desperate now . After all their hubris of the last few years the penny is dropping . They’ll own a no deal and will be punished by voters .
But there's a limit to how damaged they can be, given politics in NI. Outside a unification poll they can take a hit and still be standing.
Has the UK put any proposals to the EU yet? Here's hoping for a good one!
That unification poll is both closer in time and closer in outcome than the DUP can be comfortable with.
But do they believe that? They seem entirely unconcerned, given their constant obstructive behaviour. They might well be wrong, but they don't seem like changing their behaviour in fear of that.
I don't think anyone could accuse the DUP of bending in the wind! They may break in it though.
As for being on topic, parliament does finally seem to be getting close to agreement, albeit they are not there yet. Playing for time until opinion changed has very much worked, but some of the people clamouring for a GE seem to have woken up to the fact that the Tories might actually win it even if offering no deal, or that a remain majority might split the vote inefficiently. Therefore, a referndum is less risky since the worst case scenario is a deal, if they even enact that result, and of course are confident of remain winning in any case.
Which I think it would - enough people hate a deal of any kind, or have changed their mind, or would stay home in disgust, to see remain win.
Any second referendum will be won on the backs of democratic Remainers, not Leavers.
How the new Leave campaign conducts itself will be crucial. If it's "tell them again" or "honour the vote" they could win fairly clearly.
If Farage, Banks, Francois and others all shout betrayal from the rooftops, say staying would be better than this, and argue for abstention or more direct action, it will be over before it starts.
I suspect it will be close and depend on the perceived effectiveness of the Leave option. If the specific Leave option is believed to put the matter to bed without massive disruption, I suspect it will win. Otherwise not. I don't think democracy informs the decision. This is a democratic exercise after all.
I think given so many leavers won't like the leave option that is offered even if there is not a mass stay at home reaction it will lose. Say for instance May's deal was the leave option - even if Boris, or god forbid even Farage brought themselves to back it, their message would basically be 'we said this thing was absolute garbage, and I hate it, now please vote for it'.
That'll fire up the leave voting masses of 2016.
The most likely response to a second referendum is a mass official boycott by Leave followed by a promise to ignore the result and continue the campaign to Leave. Any Remainers thinking this will settle anything are deluded.
Leavers never voting again is certainly not something that would trouble my repose.
Remainers seem to think once they've stopped Brexit everything will go back to "normal" again. If anything things are likely to get even uglier.
One could also write:
"Leavers seem to think once weve left everything will go back to "normal" again. If anything things are likely to get even uglier"
Sadly both statements are probably true and we can only wish we werent starting from here, there are no good options!
The Overton window is moving very quickly these days. The idea that we wouldn't have an election until post brexit seemed outlandish only a couple weeks ago. Now it seems more and more likely. More and more MPs suggest the idea and it becomes normalised. It's all starting to feel a bit like Trump's style of government, where everyday a new scandal or crazy story pushes yesterday's one off the news agenda, and it just becomes accepted. I think the Corbyn the Chicken narrative has already fallen away. Next is the idea that an election is urgent at all.
Really not hard to see now that Boris resigns to avoid asking for an extension, the EU offer a long extension rather than the 3 months to the caretaker PM (Corbyn or otherwise). Limited plan of government agrees to put the existing May deal through against remain in a legally binding second referendum, with an election to follow soon after the result.
+1
This looks like a very plausible sequence to me.
And who is supposed to run the country during the 12 months that it would take to organise a second referendum? What about the budget for a start? And what about any other legislation? If the remain alliance is running the country from the backbenches how is anyone supposed to hold them to account?
Who’s been ‘running the country’ since 2017? Certainly not the government.
What are you talking about, we're doing fine - in 2019 alone they've passed *googles* the Wild Animals in Circuses Act, the Tenant Fees Act and the Non-Domestic Rating (Preparation for Digital Services) Act.
People opposing a deal might have overplayed their hand, big time.
Some advice to Bojo - don't take their agreement for granted until they have already passed through the division lobby. It seemed like half a dozen times the DUP were rumoured to be bending, giving in as it were, and it felt like reports of them folding itself caused them to hold firm.
The Overton window is moving very quickly these days. The idea that we wouldn't have an election until post brexit seemed outlandish only a couple weeks ago. Now it seems more and more likely. More and more MPs suggest the idea and it becomes normalised. It's all starting to feel a bit like Trump's style of government, where everyday a new scandal or crazy story pushes yesterday's one off the news agenda, and it just becomes accepted. I think the Corbyn the Chicken narrative has already fallen away. Next is the idea that an election is urgent at all.
Really not hard to see now that Boris resigns to avoid asking for an extension, the EU offer a long extension rather than the 3 months to the caretaker PM (Corbyn or otherwise). Limited plan of government agrees to put the existing May deal through against remain in a legally binding second referendum, with an election to follow soon after the result.
+1
This looks like a very plausible sequence to me.
And who is supposed to run the country during the 12 months that it would take to organise a second referendum? What about the budget for a start? And what about any other legislation? If the remain alliance is running the country from the backbenches how is anyone supposed to hold them to account?
Who’s been ‘running the country’ since 2017? Certainly not the government.
What are you talking about, we're doing fine - in 2019 alone they've passed *googles* the Wild Animals in Circuses Act, the Tenant Fees Act and the Non-Domestic Rating (Preparation for Digital Services) Act.
Somehow I missed that the last bill passed was the Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Act 2019. Dare I hope this means the Palace restoration will proceed relatively smoothly sometime in the next 2 decades?
For PB train buffs the Rutland byelection includes Essendine, the village where the Mallard broke the steam speed record. Great name for the LD candidate too: Wrigley-Pheasant.
My in laws used to live in the main village of Rhyall. Looks pretty true blue to me, and quite Brexity. I would be pleasantly surprised if the LDs win.
I'm not one normally to complain about the headers, but the formatting of this one is a pig's ear. The majority of it is inset, the majority of it is in italics. It's like reading a book and highlighting everything.
Prediction: if there is a second vote, “Oliver”, it will either be boycotted by Leavers, or it will be lost to Leavers, and we will exit the E.U. in a wave of nationalist anger so wild it will sweep all before it. Remainers have no idea. They are delusional.
Her jackets are OK I think, but it's her earrings that misfire sometimes!
Streets ahead of that sack of spuds of a PM though. Jezza is now quite a snappy dresser.
I wouldn’t go that far.
Politicians are rarely well dressed, but Jezza does a nice line in suits now. Perhaps he has a personal shopper, but at least he listens to advice. His suits are well cut and fit well. It helps being slim.
He is definitely under the sartorial thumb of an aide. And, whoever she is (I assume it’s a she, it might not be!) she has done a transformative job.
I get the impression he's just one of those males who never gave it a moments thought. When DC told him to smarten up, he was genuinely confused. Am I scruffy? Then he got someone in. And when he saw the results, he thought yes! Having some of that.
If Parliament force through EUref2 after forcing through the extension better for Boris to take the Tories into opposition to lead the Leave campaign.
Then it is win win for the Tories, if Leave win the referendum anyway Boris and Cummings triumph again, if Remain narrowly win Boris can present himself as an English Alex Salmond and lead the Leaver backlash at the next general election
Prediction: if there is a second vote, “Oliver”, it will either be boycotted by Leavers, or it will be lost to Leavers, and we will exit the E.U. in a wave of nationalist anger so wild it will sweep all before it. Remainers have no idea. They are delusional.
You mean some fat skinheads will knock a copper's helmet off and get arrested. You sad fantasist.
If Parliament force through EUref2 after forcing through the extension better for Boris to take the Tories into opposition to lead the Leave campaign.
Then it is win win for the Tories, if Leave win the referendum anyway Boris and Cummings triumph again, if Remain narrowly win Boris can present himself as an English Alex Salmond and lead the Leaver backlash at the next general election
So Boris is going to lead the campaign for Corbyn’s deal?
Prediction: if there is a second vote, “Oliver”, it will either be boycotted by Leavers, or it will be lost to Leavers, and we will exit the E.U. in a wave of nationalist anger so wild it will sweep all before it. Remainers have no idea. They are delusional.
I'm not worried. The ones without walking sticks couldn't afford the bus fare from Hull.
Imagine if we have a 2nd referendum. Imagine if Leavers decide (entirely understandably and utterly correctly) to boycott it, as being meaningless.
Imagine it gets less than 60% turnout. Imagine. IMAGINE.
We will become Catalunya overnight. We will become the failed state of Remainer dreams, but in a wrong way. There will be extreme violence. This is the road that leads to nightmare
Prediction: if there is a second vote, “Oliver”, it will either be boycotted by Leavers, or it will be lost to Leavers, and we will exit the E.U. in a wave of nationalist anger so wild it will sweep all before it. Remainers have no idea. They are delusional.
I'm not worried. The ones without walking sticks couldn't afford the bus fare from Hull.
If my vote counts for nothing, perhaps my punch in your fat, smug, pig-ugly face will persuade you? If not a punch, perhaps a bomb?
Her jackets are OK I think, but it's her earrings that misfire sometimes!
Streets ahead of that sack of spuds of a PM though. Jezza is now quite a snappy dresser.
I wouldn’t go that far.
Politicians are rarely well dressed, but Jezza does a nice line in suits now. Perhaps he has a personal shopper, but at least he listens to advice. His suits are well cut and fit well. It helps being slim.
He is definitely under the sartorial thumb of an aide. And, whoever she is (I assume it’s a she, it might not be!) she has done a transformative job.
I get the impression he's just one of those males who never gave it a moments thought. When DC told him to smarten up, he was genuinely confused. Am I scruffy? Then he got someone in. And when he saw the results, he thought yes! Having some of that.
Sartorial extremes are common on the left, McDonnell has always dressed well for example.
To most people it doesn't matter much, but to the few who care it matters a good deal. It is more difficult for women, because of the range of choices and expectation. A well fitted navy blue suit, white shirt and red tie, a beard trim and the jobs a good un.
Interesting that as soon as the thieves and crooks in Parliament are shut out we start making some progress on a possible new deal with the DUP starting to move their red lines...
Prediction: if there is a second vote, “Oliver”, it will either be boycotted by Leavers, or it will be lost to Leavers, and we will exit the E.U. in a wave of nationalist anger so wild it will sweep all before it. Remainers have no idea. They are delusional.
I'm not worried. The ones without walking sticks couldn't afford the bus fare from Hull.
80% of this "wave" will be Wetherspoons drunkards with sky-high cholesterol. Probably even sweep a floor without running out of puff.
If Parliament force through EUref2 after forcing through the extension better for Boris to take the Tories into opposition to lead the Leave campaign.
Then it is win win for the Tories, if Leave win the referendum anyway Boris and Cummings triumph again, if Remain narrowly win Boris can present himself as an English Alex Salmond and lead the Leaver backlash at the next general election
So Boris is going to lead the campaign for Corbyn’s deal?
If it is a farcical Corbyn Deal v Remain vote, Boris and Farage will agree a pact to boycott the poll and tell their supporters to save their anger for the next general election
Comments
Sadly I fear the room for compromise is lying in a ditch !
But Oliver Letwin? Scraping the barrel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation#2010_to_present
We laughed at Chris Grayling and his ferry company start up, but the task of providing a by pass route for critical goods was, at heart, a key one.
OK, we may need logistical help and goodwill from across the channel to achieve by-pass for medicines, and it is a reasonable hope that would be forthcoming, but the only actual mini deal of use to the sector is one that eased the Dover-Calais situation as a whole. In other words, The Deal.
Swinson ain’t new you know. She’s been around for years, prior to her involuntary sabbatical. She’s got a reputation for being a true dunderheid. Totally incapable of building a functioning team.
The more folk get to know her, the more they dislike her.
But the Lib Dems are stuck with her. She’s so young I don’t know how they’re going to finesse her disappearance. But disappear she must.
You lose an election, you don't just give up, abandon your positions and let the winners get on with the politics on a free run.
OK, the indyref and the EU ref are different in that the status quo was voted for in one and against in the other but in both cases the results have been sufficiently close enough to not decisively settle the discussion.
In the EU ref case, the subsequent problem has been the leavers inability to agree on what leaving actually means and therefore failing to present and deliver a coherent plan to leave. The secondary problem is that there is insufficient scope in our limited party political system to segment both by party and by Brexit stance, it's got to be one or the other particularly when your government is not starting with a majority of 50+.
If everyone was thinking really clearly then after Cameron resigned a GONU should have been formed given both Labour and the Conservatives voted to trigger Article 50, the aim should have been to deliver Brexit and then get back to the normal left/right political shenanigans.
But of course that was never going to happen, and much of the mess since can be attributed to that inability to set one or other of Brexit and party politics aside temporarily.
I doubt any senior politician is very easy to work for.
Indeed in many ways Brexit is the legacy of the destruction of traditional working class communities by the miners strike and similar deindustrialisation. Revenge is a dish best served cold. Served cold to London and the South East.
Like a one woman Hi-de-hi convention.
*I think it wrong to speak of Revoke as policy, before it is discussed and agreed by Conference.
But who knows in these craxy days?
Our parliament appears to be in its end days
God piece on Newsnight on the Democrat race.
So you’ll find a mix of views on the chances of success or failure for next weeks SC hearing .
The issue which is a big one is the government wants a Queens Speech . If the court strikes down the suspension. What next ? Does the PM apply for another one ?
I think there must be some form of cognitive dysfunctionality on this who see revoke as any form of solution .
Lets go back to the situation that created the anger and angst against the EU without addressing any of the core issues. Nothing more than stupidity to adopt that myopic position.
Not only that, our semi detached half in half out membership which is almost designed to cause friction and discontent is likely to be more destabilising as the core Euro states will quite rightly follow policy to benefit thier position, generating greater conflict and brexit anger.
I would be fascinated to see a convincing arguement as to why revocation would give us more harmony than our bespoke membership have us in the past.
Has the UK put any proposals to the EU yet? Here's hoping for a good one!
If he's broken the law he's a crook, if he hasn't he isn't a crook, but he's still behaved terribly and I think he should face serious political consequences for that. I don't see what is vacillating about that. Is your implication that he is a crook even if the judgement is he hasn't broken the law? That would just makes you sound demented macolm.
Not that I am disputing I am a weak vacillating fanny. But your assertion that he is a crook may or may be borne out, and if the court says he isn't if you stick to your guns and say he is you're not proving your strong manly credentials, you're proving you think partisan point scoring is more valid than the law.
If anything I am doing the opposite of vacillating by making clear I think he has behaved terribly whether or not he broke the law.
from:
https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1172201272017149952?s=19
They can't do it from the backbenches. They'd need to VoNC the PM, form a government to pass a referendum bill, decide who will lead it, and keep that coalition together while the electoral commission does its thing. The scrutiny on that Govt - beaten at the last election, carrying a single unpopular policy on which they don't quite agree and which wasn't in their manifestos, led by someone who wasn't a party leader, would be unrelenting.
Another referendum before end 2020 should be a 15/1 shot. Before the end of 2019 should be 100/1
Fascinating stuff .
Lab 1/25 (from 1/10)
LD 8/1
Bxp 50/1
Con 50/1
(Shadsy)
People opposing a deal might have overplayed their hand, big time.
"Leavers seem to think once weve left everything will go back to "normal" again. If anything things are likely to get even uglier"
Sadly both statements are probably true and we can only wish we werent starting from here, there are no good options!
My in laws used to live in the main village of Rhyall. Looks pretty true blue to me, and quite Brexity. I would be pleasantly surprised if the LDs win.
https://www.reddit.com/r/oldbritishtelly/
It's like reading a book and highlighting everything.
"Aber alle diese Verräter werden bezahlen!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBWmkwaTQ0k&feature=youtu.be&t=180
Then it is win win for the Tories, if Leave win the referendum anyway Boris and Cummings triumph again, if Remain narrowly win Boris can present himself as an English Alex Salmond and lead the Leaver backlash at the next general election
Imagine it gets less than 60% turnout. Imagine. IMAGINE.
We will become Catalunya overnight. We will become the failed state of Remainer dreams, but in a wrong way. There will be extreme violence. This is the road that leads to nightmare
You stupid, stupid people.
To most people it doesn't matter much, but to the few who care it matters a good deal. It is more difficult for women, because of the range of choices and expectation. A well fitted navy blue suit, white shirt and red tie, a beard trim and the jobs a good un.