They are mad. There are more votes tomorrow where some of the tory rebels might wobble ! but not going to happen if they kick them out.
It is a vital move to show Boris means business and show Brexit Party voters in particular he will not tolerate Tory MPs refusing to respect the Leave vote and extending again past October 31st
The rebels arent getting it, they think they are going to be cheered as heroes, but most people have had enough of this. I think they will be disappointed by the outcome. But that's just my reading of the mood music.
I know he's SNP but every time he stands up it's Scotland this.. Scotland that.. Pushing SNP propaganda and attack lines.
Always divides the House rather than seeking to influence it to his greater advantage.
We aim to dissolve the Union, not repair it.
Yes, but this vote is about stopping a No Deal Brexit.
Are the SNP interested in reaching out to stop that across party lines,or not?
Stopping No Deal Brexit is merely a step on the journey. We have bigger, more important goals. Pursuing, always, the interests of the Scottish nation.
A step on the journey you will fail to take unless you can bury your myopic isolationist ideology.
The Nat say its ok to ignore referendums - precedent set. Twice.
The UK should be quite happy to have another Scottish referendum. They could just refuse to have any deal that doesn't include Edinburgh being ruled by English law and be happy to extend forever.
Scotland would just apply to join the EU immediately and then have the same superpower behind them as Ireland do.
So the BBC is now reporting that the government is trying to prevent the bill getting through the Lords by tabling 90 amendments to the business motion.
A simple motion to consider all 90 amendments together as one might deal with that.
What are the chances that the HoL might actually block this bill?
Thornberry on BBC apparently saying that Labour will never trust a Boris request for a GE. As he might shift the date.
How does that work? Labour will never go for an election, ever?
In most circumstances, it wouldn't matter if they trusted him on the precise date. But in this situation, it's crucial.
I had no idea the PM had the power to shift a GE date after it had been fixed. Has it ever happened? Under what law is this possible?
However, bearing in mind Johnson's record of duplicity on prorogation and just about everything else he clearly cannot be trusted on this.
Blair moved the 2001 local elections mid campaign due to foot and mouth, it requires a black swan to have any legitimacy
Boris has proven with his prorogation that he cannot be trusted. The man couldn't lie straight in bed.
If the electiondate 14th October is defined in law then it can't be changed unless the law is changed? Boris can't change it on a whim?
If there's a Black swan" event Parliament would have to be recalled mid-campaign to change the law.
This is all bullshit.
In the normal course of events there wouldn't be a problem because if the PM gave a date in good faith it would be accepted and he/she would be trusted not to change it without good reason.
So the BBC is now reporting that the government is trying to prevent the bill getting through the Lords by tabling 90 amendments to the business motion.
A simple motion to consider all 90 amendments together as one might deal with that.
What are the chances that the HoL might actually block this bill?
Do I sound like someone who has a clue ?
No, me neither. My question was directed at the few on PB who might a clue.
The rebels arent getting it, they think they are going to be cheered as heroes, but most people have had enough of this. I think they will be disappointed by the outcome. But that's just my reading of the mood music.
I think most of them would accept there is a chance this will not work in the longer term. But they think we no deal for sure if they don't try it. So a chance of being remainer heroes is better than meekly accepting no deal, in their eyes.
How many MPs voted for Article 50, voted against the withdrawal agreement all three times, and are now voting to block no deal?
They should all lose their jobs.
Completely agree.
That’s a matter for their constituents, not executive fiat by angry Leavers.
You seem to be moving the goalposts of the argument there. Whether Remainer or Leaver, it is completely irresponsible to vote for leaving the EU, against having a deal and against having no deal.
So the BBC is now reporting that the government is trying to prevent the bill getting through the Lords by tabling 90 amendments to the business motion.
Lucky the government hasn't pissed off the Lord's Speaker...
If you want to have an election, I'd have it now. Because those PMIs tend to lead changes in unemployment rates by six months.
The Renainers really are dumb. They are going to kill Brexit just in time for a major recession which every Leave supporting politician will take great pleasure in pinning on them. So with economic hardship and a betrayal narrative we are going to see a huge increase in support for the real extremist parties and a backlash against the politicians like you can't imagine.
A first? First time I’ve seen a Leaver admit that Brexit is dead.
There have been plenty of us warning this would happen for months. I go further and say if Brexit is dead then so is democracy in this country. You will reap what you sowed.
It was a Tory who did the sowing: David Cameron.
Nope. He just gave the electorate a choice. It is the Remainers who have chosen to ignore that choice and so undermine the basic principles of democracy. I assume ftom your comments a future Parliament should ignore any future Indy Referendum
The referendum was advisory. If it had been binding the result would have been annulled by the courts. Due to Leave cheating.
LOL. Yet more Remoaner lies.
Remain cheating was presumably fine and dandy.
Get your story straight lads, is it both sides were cheating or Leave deffo, deffo wasn't?
Thornberry on BBC apparently saying that Labour will never trust a Boris request for a GE. As he might shift the date.
How does that work? Labour will never go for an election, ever?
In most circumstances, it wouldn't matter if they trusted him on the precise date. But in this situation, it's crucial.
I had no idea the PM had the power to shift a GE date after it had been fixed. Has it ever happened? Under what law is this possible?
However, bearing in mind Johnson's record of duplicity on prorogation and just about everything else he clearly cannot be trusted on this.
Blair moved the 2001 local elections mid campaign due to foot and mouth, it requires a black swan to have any legitimacy
Boris has proven with his prorogation that he cannot be trusted. The man couldn't lie straight in bed.
If the electiondate 14th October is defined in law then it can't be changed unless the law is changed? Boris can't change it on a whim?
If there's a Black swan" event Parliament would have to be recalled mid-campaign to change the law.
This is all bullshit.
In the normal course of events there wouldn't be a problem because if the PM gave a date in good faith it would be accepted and he/she would be trusted not to change it without good reason.
Who is going to trust Johnson though?
Yes but they don't have to "trust" Johnson because the date will be defined in law and the law can then only be changed by another law.
This stuff about people not trusting Boris is just a smokescreen because they don't want an election.
Thornberry on BBC apparently saying that Labour will never trust a Boris request for a GE. As he might shift the date.
How does that work? Labour will never go for an election, ever?
Unless the polls start showing something like Lab 45% and Con 30% I fear cowardly Labour are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming to a general election.
Seems that way but the lead was much bigger in 2017 and jezza was well up for it.
The change from 2017 to now is very odd. Maybe its because they can't play the "we'll respect the refernedum" card in their northern leave seats this time?
It's only temporary. As soon as there is an extension signed, sealed and delivered, they will back a general election.
I'm not certain Johnson will still want one, but we'll see. It might be out of his hands.
Not sure. @Byronic was reporting Thornberry as saying Labour would NEVER agree to a Johnson election?
And why does Labour care so much about an extension if they think they will win the election?
Everything they are sayling and doing today looks like they've pretty given up on any chance at the election and are desperate to avoid it.
It looks strange.
Byronic was, I believe, mistaken. The Guardian report Thornberry thusly "She says the party wants to see the bill ruling out a no-deal Brexit on 31 October passed first."
I don't misunderstand their role at all. I just believe they are fundementally dishonest and act in their own interests and in support of their own beliefs even when they have said the exact opposite to get elected. MPs will never support a deal now they think they can safely ignore the referendum. One reason amongst many why they are unfit for public office.
I don't accept that view. I don't recall No Deal being mentioned prominently in 2017 and if it was mentioned, it was rapidly dismissed as being so unlikely as not to be worth bothering about.
Being opposed to leaving without a Deal doesn't make you opposed to leaving with a Deal. Yes, there are MPs opposed to us leaving - the 47 Labour MPs, the LDs and others who voted against A50 way back in early 2017 for example. Many, including my local MP, represent (and that's the key word) constituencies which voted to Remain. He has publicly opposed leaving and I will defend his consistency.
That said, the 47% who voted Leave in his constituency may consider he is not representing them.
How many MPs voted for Article 50, voted against the withdrawal agreement all three times, and are now voting to block no deal?
They should all lose their jobs.
Completely agree.
That’s a matter for their constituents, not executive fiat by angry Leavers.
You seem to be moving the goalposts of the argument there. Whether Remainer or Leaver, it is completely irresponsible to vote for leaving the EU, against having a deal and against having no deal.
They can explain their actions to their constituents. Foaming because you don’t agree with their position is pointless.
Aarrgh, why didn't 17 of you vote for it last time, when you were told it was the last chance?!?!
Ok, it would still have been short by around 25-30 I think as it would be about 10-12 more Lab MPs than backed it last time, but that puts the other votes needed to pass it in little more than a dozen. As it is now you'd have Boris and Corbyn whip against it and lose by more than MV1!
Well it’s come to a head then. A chunk of the country (most visible on here) think Letwin, Grieve and co are the “grown ups” and this is a wonderful moment for democracy. The rest of us are bored if Parliament mucking about. Time will tell who’s the bigger group.
They are mad. There are more votes tomorrow where some of the tory rebels might wobble ! but not going to happen if they kick them out.
So by this time tomorrow we will have a government at least 10 votes short of a majority, unable to get any business through the Commons and unable to call an election.
Lol Labour MPs now backing the May deal. Too late you complete and utter ****s. Three fucking chances to push it through and now we're going to end up with a disaster no deal because you ****s couldn't stand up and be counted when it mattered.
I know he's SNP but every time he stands up it's Scotland this.. Scotland that.. Pushing SNP propaganda and attack lines.
Always divides the House rather than seeking to influence it to his greater advantage.
We aim to dissolve the Union, not repair it.
Yes, but this vote is about stopping a No Deal Brexit.
Are the SNP interested in reaching out to stop that across party lines,or not?
Stopping No Deal Brexit is merely a step on the journey. We have bigger, more important goals. Pursuing, always, the interests of the Scottish nation.
A step on the journey you will fail to take unless you can bury your myopic isolationist ideology.
A Tory calling someone else myopic, isolationist and an ideologue. Folk in glass houses...
Weak. You've defaulted to partisan mode.
I'd like to say I'm surprised but I'm not. I'll take it as a complement as you only ever turn to this when you sense you're losing the argument.
And you are.
The Scottish self-government movement is far-sighted, open and pragmatic. The evidence for these assertions is abundant, and obvious. I do not believe that you are willing to look at the evidence, as you are myopic, isolationist and ideological. And a case study in psychological projection.
The rebels arent getting it, they think they are going to be cheered as heroes, but most people have had enough of this. I think they will be disappointed by the outcome. But that's just my reading of the mood music.
Big thing with this is I assume it means Flint is voting against the government tonight.
No I think it more likely that it's to provide cover for them to vote against the government tonight. They can say to their leave constituents that they tried their best but could not get a deal through.
Lol Labour MPs now backing the May deal. Too late you complete and utter ****s. Three fucking chances to push it through and now we're going to end up with a disaster no deal because you ****s couldn't stand up and be counted when it mattered.
So 17 labour mps are going to amend the legislation tomorrow to put Mays withdrawl proposition back to.parliament..what is going on
They are defying Corbyn, though as the Withdrawal Agreement failed by 58 votes at MV3 it needs at least 13 more Labour MPs to switch sides to pass (Flint having already voted for the WA then)
They are mad. There are more votes tomorrow where some of the tory rebels might wobble ! but not going to happen if they kick them out.
It is a vital move to show Boris means business and show Brexit Party voters in particular he will not tolerate Tory MPs refusing to respect the Leave vote and extending again past October 31st
You are one of the best for attempting answers HY. How do you tackle it when they say, for domestic audiences No Deal is mere bump in road, teething issues we will soon get over, yet at same time it’s going to carry so much threat to EU it helps shift them on the backstop?
Thornberry on BBC apparently saying that Labour will never trust a Boris request for a GE. As he might shift the date.
How does that work? Labour will never go for an election, ever?
Unless the polls start showing something like Lab 45% and Con 30% I fear cowardly Labour are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming to a general election.
Seems that way but the lead was much bigger in 2017 and jezza was well up for it.
The change from 2017 to now is very odd. Maybe its because they can't play the "we'll respect the refernedum" card in their northern leave seats this time?
It's only temporary. As soon as there is an extension signed, sealed and delivered, they will back a general election.
I'm not certain Johnson will still want one, but we'll see. It might be out of his hands.
Not sure. @Byronic was reporting Thornberry as saying Labour would NEVER agree to a Johnson election?
And why does Labour care so much about an extension if they think they will win the election?
Everything they are sayling and doing today looks like they've pretty given up on any chance at the election and are desperate to avoid it.
It looks strange.
Byronic was, I believe, mistaken. The Guardian report Thornberry thusly "She says the party wants to see the bill ruling out a no-deal Brexit on 31 October passed first."
Only a matter of sequencing.
So if the tories got in with a huge majority on a platform of no deal their hands will still be tied?
If you want to have an election, I'd have it now. Because those PMIs tend to lead changes in unemployment rates by six months.
The Renainers really are dumb. They are going to kill Brexit just in time for a major recession which every Leave supporting politician will take great pleasure in pinning on them. So with economic hardship and a betrayal narrative we are going to see a huge increase in support for the real extremist parties and a backlash against the politicians like you can't imagine.
A first? First time I’ve seen a Leaver admit that Brexit is dead.
It might be. Depends on how events play out, evidently.
On the general subject of Leaverdom, people make the mistake of assuming we're all fanatics. The actual situation is somewhat more nuanced.
As a matter of moral conviction, I'm on the side of Brexit for sovereignty reasons. And I feel, from the standpoint of having decisions made in this country and not pooling upwards to the EU level, that Leave was the right choice.
HOWEVER - there's part of me that wishes fervently that the whole sordid business would just go away, and that part of me isn't too arsed whether we stay or go so long as the rotten politicians get on with it and make a decision. That's primarily the result of wanting the uncertainty and fudge done with, and partly sheer boredom.
Anyway, on to more important things. Bake Off starts in a minute.
How does that work? Labour will never go for an election, ever?
In most circumstances, ucial.
I had no idea the PM had the power to shift a GE date after it had been fixed. Has it ever happened? Under what law is this possible?
However, bearing in mind Johnson's record of duplicity on prorogation and just about everything else he clearly cannot be trusted on this.
Blair moved the 2001 local elections mid campaign due to foot and mouth, it requires a black swan to have any legitimacy
Boris has proven with his prorogation that he cannot be trusted. The man couldn't lie straight in bed.
If the electiondate 14th October is defined in law then it can't be changed unless the law is changed? Boris can't change it on a whim?
If there's a Black swan" event Parliament would have to be recalled mid-campaign to change the law.
This is all bullshit.
In the normal course of events there wouldn't be a problem because if the PM gave a date in good faith it would be accepted and he/she would be trusted not to change it without good reason.
Who is going to trust Johnson though?
Yes but they don't have to "trust" Johnson because the date will be defined in law and the law can then only be changed by another law.
This stuff about people not trusting Boris is just a smokescreen because they don't want an election.
Agree.
A CON govt after the election could just overturn any law requiring extension. A LD one could revoke. A LAB one could pass a law to support whatever Brexit policy they had at the time the lobbies were unlocked and sequester Jewish assets. A BXP one could repeal the 1972 ECA and declare war on France.
If you watch the TV broadcast he is obviously doing this, as a gangly man, so he can clearly hear what the backbencher is saying, via the Commons audio system. What is the fucking point in claiming otherwise.
Thornberry on BBC apparently saying that Labour will never trust a Boris request for a GE. As he might shift the date.
How does that work? Labour will never go for an election, ever?
In most circumstances, it wouldn't matter if they trusted him on the precise date. But in this situation, it's crucial.
I had no idea the PM had the power to shift a GE date after it had been fixed. Has it ever happened? Under what law is this possible?
However, bearing in mind Johnson's record of duplicity on prorogation and just about everything else he clearly cannot be trusted on this.
Blair moved the 2001 local elections mid campaign due to foot and mouth, it requires a black swan to have any legitimacy
Boris has proven with his prorogation that he cannot be trusted. The man couldn't lie straight in bed.
So we limp on to 2022 with no majority for anything in parliament?
Not that long, but lets discuss a date when Brexit is out of the way. ..
2035 looks good.
I'm getting my hair cut that year. Can we make it 2038?
The year the interstellar Zargon invasion fleet is due to arrive, are you mad?
They wouldn't dare once they saw our functioning rail infrastructure in 2038 certainly. Let's hope they have the wrong sort of space in their path, and delays due to "one otherling, one job issues". Still if they do arrive early, and try to seek out our alien tea, then they'll be sure to fall foul of clause four. It may as well be the lbw rules as far as they're concerned. Either way they'll be on their way home, and Conference will rule them entirely out-of-order should they power up their world-destroying-weapons.
I agree. But can't see Johnson doing it now. He has been forced into a corner where the only route for his political survival is to win back BXP votes.
I don't misunderstand their role at all. I just believe they are fundementally dishonest and act in their own interests and in support of their own beliefs even when they have said the exact opposite to get elected. MPs will never support a deal now they think they can safely ignore the referendum. One reason amongst many why they are unfit for public office.
I don't accept that view. I don't recall No Deal being mentioned prominently in 2017 and if it was mentioned, it was rapidly dismissed as being so unlikely as not to be worth bothering about.
Being opposed to leaving without a Deal doesn't make you opposed to leaving with a Deal. Yes, there are MPs opposed to us leaving - the 47 Labour MPs, the LDs and others who voted against A50 way back in early 2017 for example. Many, including my local MP, represent (and that's the key word) constituencies which voted to Remain. He has publicly opposed leaving and I will defend his consistency.
That said, the 47% who voted Leave in his constituency may consider he is not representing them.
You keep conflating arguments. This is not sbout No Deal it is about all those MPs including the Tory defectors who made it explicit in their personal manifestos thst they would support Brexit and who are now openly supporting it being reversed. They are unfit for office.
The WA is not going to pass though is it... given it will be without Tory or Labour front bench support?
Of course. It's another part of that group's own particular posturing to show how they are the grown up compromisers...now most of them left it too late to do!
Speaking as someone who really wanted the WA to pass, the worst part is how frequently its chances of passing someday somehow got floated, and still gets floated, even though the numbers really spoke against that. Not that anyone so far seems to think this move has a hope in hell.
Thornberry on BBC apparently saying that Labour will never trust a Boris request for a GE. As he might shift the date.
How does that work? Labour will never go for an election, ever?
Unless the polls start showing something like Lab 45% and Con 30% I fear cowardly Labour are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming to a general election.
Seems that way but the lead was much bigger in 2017 and jezza was well up for it.
The change from 2017 to now is very odd. Maybe its because they can't play the "we'll respect the refernedum" card in their northern leave seats this time?
It's only temporary. As soon as there is an extension signed, sealed and delivered, they will back a general election.
I'm not certain Johnson will still want one, but we'll see. It might be out of his hands.
Not sure. @Byronic was reporting Thornberry as saying Labour would NEVER agree to a Johnson election?
And why does Labour care so much about an extension if they think they will win the election?
Everything they are sayling and doing today looks like they've pretty given up on any chance at the election and are desperate to avoid it.
It looks strange.
Byronic was, I believe, mistaken. The Guardian report Thornberry thusly "She says the party wants to see the bill ruling out a no-deal Brexit on 31 October passed first."
Only a matter of sequencing.
So if the tories got in with a huge majority on a platform of no deal their hands will still be tied?
(Unlikely I know)
No, if they have a big majority Boris tells ths EU that we are leaving without a deal so dont bother offering an extension.
I'm sure most of you know this but the reason some MPs look like they're slouching is practical. Acoustics in the Chamber are awful, but if you lie back with your ear to the loudspeakers positioned in the rear of the seats you can hear okay.
If Boris fails and the UK remains then on the plus side it will finish Scottish Independence.
And the Tories will have cleared the stables.
If A happens it will finish Scottish independence.
If B happens it will finish Scottish independence.
If C happens it will finish Scottish independence.
... Ad infinitum.
There is always one more straw for the Brit Nats to cling on to. Until there isn’t.
Quite. You can’t “finish” an idea. An idea may rise and fall in popularity but it will never be “finished”. This binary Manichaeanism is what I find most dispiriting in modern politics.
Trying to imply that he might still oppose somehow if Boris is not true to his word, but his very last words prove that false - he's decided its no deal or Corbyn, and predictably has gone with the former. But as you say at least he's frank about how people will react.
I love that people still use 'look them in the eye' as a way of determining whether to believe someone, metaphorically at least. Even as a young child at school we all knew that some people, teachers included, like to think they can spot a liar by looking them in the eyes, so if you did have to lie make sure to meet the gaze of the other person.
If Boris fails and the UK remains then on the plus side it will finish Scottish Independence.
And the Tories will have cleared the stables.
If A happens it will finish Scottish independence.
If B happens it will finish Scottish independence.
If C happens it will finish Scottish independence.
... Ad infinitum.
There is always one more straw for the Brit Nats to cling on to. Until there isn’t.
Quite. You can’t “finish” an idea. An idea may rise and fall in popularity but it will never be “finished”. This binary Manichaeanism is what I find most dispiriting in modern politics.
If binary Manichaeanism is the thing you find most dispiriting in modern politics then you are a lucky man.
The thing I find most dispiriting about modern politics is that we have no decent journalists to hold the incompetent shits to account.
It may be the case that even after having rejected compromise before the House is not obliged to choose between extremes now, but they are definitely too late and definitely not the ones to make the case.
Comments
Little England alone once again.
Who is going to trust Johnson though?
He must've have known all along this would be the result of his "do or die" approach to Brexit.
Sooner or later he'll get his Parliament Vs the People election and MPs are writing his script for him tonight...
This stuff about people not trusting Boris is just a smokescreen because they don't want an election.
Only a matter of sequencing.
Being opposed to leaving without a Deal doesn't make you opposed to leaving with a Deal. Yes, there are MPs opposed to us leaving - the 47 Labour MPs, the LDs and others who voted against A50 way back in early 2017 for example. Many, including my local MP, represent (and that's the key word) constituencies which voted to Remain. He has publicly opposed leaving and I will defend his consistency.
That said, the 47% who voted Leave in his constituency may consider he is not representing them.
Too few, far too late.
Ok, it would still have been short by around 25-30 I think as it would be about 10-12 more Lab MPs than backed it last time, but that puts the other votes needed to pass it in little more than a dozen. As it is now you'd have Boris and Corbyn whip against it and lose by more than MV1!
And the Tories will have cleared the stables.
Brilliant.
Off to bed.
Arrogant, irresponsible, shortsighted europhile twats, like him, are one of the main reasons we are where we are. He will not be forgiven by history.
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1168968530307497985?s=20
Other than Letwin and perhaps Clarke, still not seeing an MP I'm particularly bothered to see go.
A leader for all seasons.
A man who can unite party and country.
Graham Brady Old Lady, the time is now.
And Boris Johnson heroically watched his majority fall apart.
Think I have made the right call listening to The Vienna Phil on Radio 3.
https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1168969570322923528?s=20
https://twitter.com/iainjwatson/status/1168978694846713858
If B happens it will finish Scottish independence.
If C happens it will finish Scottish independence.
... Ad infinitum.
There is always one more straw for the Brit Nats to cling on to. Until there isn’t.
Wonder what the anything but Corbyn cultists will make of this
(Unlikely I know)
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1168979873781768194
A CON govt after the election could just overturn any law requiring extension. A LD one could revoke. A LAB one could pass a law to support whatever Brexit policy they had at the time the lobbies were unlocked and sequester Jewish assets. A BXP one could repeal the 1972 ECA and declare war on France.
Frit.
Speaking as someone who really wanted the WA to pass, the worst part is how frequently its chances of passing someday somehow got floated, and still gets floated, even though the numbers really spoke against that. Not that anyone so far seems to think this move has a hope in hell.
Yes, I do. We have arrived at this humiliating position because of the monumental failure of an entire political class.
I put more blame on two generations of lying europhiles, however. Simply because their crimes went on for so much longer.
Corbyn is unlikely to lose Jewish votes given his issues (because none will vote for him)
Cummings is doing his best to ensure that they cannot vote Tory.
Err... who benefits?
It just looks like yet another c*ck-up
Now, if you'll excuse me, Kate Hoey is on and I think I might go and put my head through a blender.
I love that people still use 'look them in the eye' as a way of determining whether to believe someone, metaphorically at least. Even as a young child at school we all knew that some people, teachers included, like to think they can spot a liar by looking them in the eyes, so if you did have to lie make sure to meet the gaze of the other person.
Half way through it I read the small print to discover that it is 7.4% by volume. Good job I didn't get a 4-pack!
The thing I find most dispiriting about modern politics is that we have no decent journalists to hold the incompetent shits to account.