So, thanks to Boris, in the eyes of the public "suspending parliament" is now a reasonable, normal thing. Chilling.
It's more normal than overturning a public vote I'd say. I dont think there will be too many complaints from the majority given the underhand tactics used by so many MPs up until today.
Nobody has overturned it you numpty. We have a parliamentary democracy and it is necessary to get parliamentary agreement, that is how are system works. So much for "bring back control"! You leave fanatics have not got the first understanding of how our system works. Your ignorance of how Europe works was, well, just wilfully ignorant, but your stupidity when it comes to our own constitution and traditions beggars belief.
So, thanks to Boris, in the eyes of the public "suspending parliament" is now a reasonable, normal thing. Chilling.
It's more normal than overturning a public vote I'd say. I dont think there will be too many complaints from the majority given the underhand tactics used by so many MPs up until today.
As I say people in my office say this is the right thing to do as parliament seems hell bent on making us remain.
As a visceral reaction to the BBC breaking news page, however, there is huge resentment at this step being taken which smells a bit like undermining parliament but I accept that many leavers will be high-fiving at the news.
Only the thick leavers, the smarter ones will realise that such if successful such tactics are likely to be used again.
I don't think there are any smart leavers. Even our very own, logically consistent @Richard_Tyndall who I admire for the clarity of his thought nevertheless believes that pulling the house down around us is worth it because of some kind of indeterminate benefit in the long run. That is not the sign of anyone smart.
he's pulling your house down not his
that is smart
To channel @malcolmg here, be clear he is not pulling my house(s) down.
then why are you worried ?
I am interested in politics because I believe it has the capacity to make peoples' lives better. This is demonstrably making peoples' lives worse and, as I have said from pre-June 2016, the peoples' lives who it will make worse are amongst those who can least afford it.
Not like us lot tapping away at 10am of a Wednesday morning all doing very well thank you. Not us lot. The people who are genuinely struggling. They are the ones who are to be sacrificed at the altar of some mythical "sovereignty" and the fantasies of the idle rich on the one hand, or myopic extremists on the other.
some peoples lives have got better in the last 20 years and most people have simply stagnated. The system as it was wasnt taking eveyone with it. Those of us who pointed this out got short shrift . If people arent seeing progress then why would they vote for a system that doesnt benefit them ?
I agree with you, but Brexit is not going to make that better.
You read those stories about people who made £200m on referendum night. £200m in one night! Most people are lucky to earn £1m in their lifetimes.
So, thanks to Boris, in the eyes of the public "suspending parliament" is now a reasonable, normal thing. Chilling.
It's more normal than overturning a public vote I'd say. I dont think there will be too many complaints from the majority given the underhand tactics used by so many MPs up until today.
Mr. Observer, I'm vaguely aware of some of the history (Hideyoshi invading in late 16th or early 17th century, I think) but I didn't know it still played significantly or that there was controversy over what happened.
Thanks for that answer, interesting to learn about it, if a little depressing too.
Indeed. Anyone that thinks that the British are still obsessed by World War 2 should take a trip to Asia and see how far/deep memories are there.
When millions were butchered, is that really surprising ?
I once started reading about the Sack of Nanking, and had to stop, it was so hideous.
Nemesis, by Max Hastings, gives a very grim account of the war in the Pacific and Far East.
So, thanks to Boris, in the eyes of the public "suspending parliament" is now a reasonable, normal thing. Chilling.
It's more normal than overturning a public vote I'd say. I dont think there will be too many complaints from the majority given the underhand tactics used by so many MPs up until today.
"the majority" does not support No Deal
There is no mandate for no deal
the majority does supporting leaving the EU though
So, thanks to Boris, in the eyes of the public "suspending parliament" is now a reasonable, normal thing. Chilling.
It's more normal than overturning a public vote I'd say. I dont think there will be too many complaints from the majority given the underhand tactics used by so many MPs up until today.
"the majority" does not support No Deal
There is no mandate for no deal
the majority does supporting leaving the EU though
That's not a fact but it is also irrelevant. This is not about leaving the EU, this is about leaving the EU without a deal on an arbitrary deadline.
There is a case before the Court of Session that is due to have an accelerated hearing in, I think, the first week in September. It challenges the right of a PM to prorogate Parliament. It could become very important. It is before Lord Doherty. He is a good lawyer but he won't appreciate being in the eye of this particular storm.
So, thanks to Boris, in the eyes of the public "suspending parliament" is now a reasonable, normal thing. Chilling.
It's more normal than overturning a public vote I'd say. I dont think there will be too many complaints from the majority given the underhand tactics used by so many MPs up until today.
Nobody has overturned it you numpty. We have a parliamentary democracy and it is necessary to get parliamentary agreement, that is how are system works. So much for "bring back control"! You leave fanatics have not got the first understanding of how our system works. Your ignorance of how Europe works was, well, just wilfully ignorant, but your stupidity when it comes to our own constitution and traditions beggars belief.
You and the FBPE lot are the fanatics, desperate for your Harman or Clarke led remain coup and happy to block Brexit in every way with zero solutions. Perhaps if you had backed a compromise you wouldn't face this situation. Short sighted or what.
So, thanks to Boris, in the eyes of the public "suspending parliament" is now a reasonable, normal thing. Chilling.
It's more normal than overturning a public vote I'd say. I dont think there will be too many complaints from the majority given the underhand tactics used by so many MPs up until today.
As I say people in my office say this is the right thing to do as parliament seems hell bent on making us remain.
It makes perfect sense. I'm not critical of the official labour policy, I'm critical that I think most of its mps dont really support that policy and have no intention of actually following it. Corbyn and co would but so many of its MPs do not, so if they stand under that policy they are being false.
They have every intention of following it. Following it consists of voting for it, which they would do, as I think you've already agreed (???). You're complaining that they would vote for it without being enthusiastic deep in their hearts about part of what they're voting for.
No I am not. I'm complaining that because they wont back a renegotiated deal no matter what that makes any years of effort to renegotiate pointless. If all they want is remain that is fine but dont send PM Corbyn on years of pointless renegotiation, that's a waste of time. Otherwise they are in effect saying Corbyn could get the most perfect deal in history and theyd not back it. So why bother sending him to get a perfect deal?
I dont understand the concern here - by ruling out all but their one option they undermine the official position of st least giving Corbyn a chance to get so nothing decent, since they simultaneously say we want to renegotiate but also that they will oppose whatever comes back.
So, thanks to Boris, in the eyes of the public "suspending parliament" is now a reasonable, normal thing. Chilling.
It's more normal than overturning a public vote I'd say. I dont think there will be too many complaints from the majority given the underhand tactics used by so many MPs up until today.
"the majority" does not support No Deal
There is no mandate for no deal
the majority does supporting leaving the EU though
That's not a fact but it is also irrelevant. This is not about leaving the EU, this is about leaving the EU without a deal on an arbitrary deadline.
It is a fact because there was a public vote on it. Not an opinion or twitter poll.
So, thanks to Boris, in the eyes of the public "suspending parliament" is now a reasonable, normal thing. Chilling.
It's more normal than overturning a public vote I'd say. I dont think there will be too many complaints from the majority given the underhand tactics used by so many MPs up until today.
Nobody has overturned it you numpty. We have a parliamentary democracy and it is necessary to get parliamentary agreement, that is how are system works. So much for "bring back control"! You leave fanatics have not got the first understanding of how our system works. Your ignorance of how Europe works was, well, just wilfully ignorant, but your stupidity when it comes to our own constitution and traditions beggars belief.
You and the FBPE lot are the fanatics, desperate for your Harman or Clarke led remain coup and happy to block Brexit in every way with zero solutions. Perhaps if you had backed a compromise you wouldn't face this situation. Short sighted or what.
Stop frothing and think rationally. It's embarrassing.
As a visceral reaction to the BBC breaking news page, however, there is huge resentment at this step being taken which smells a bit like undermining parliament but I accept that many leavers will be high-fiving at the news.
Only the thick leavers, the smarter ones will realise that such if successful such tactics are likely to be used again.
I don't think there are any smart leavers. Even our very own, logically consistent @Richard_Tyndall who I admire for the clarity of his thought nevertheless believes that pulling the house down around us is worth it because of some kind of indeterminate benefit in the long run. That is not the sign of anyone smart.
he's pulling your house down not his
that is smart
To channel @malcolmg here, be clear he is not pulling my house(s) down.
then why are you worried ?
I am interested in politics because I believe it has the capacity to make peoples' lives better. This is demonstrably making peoples' lives worse and, as I have said from pre-June 2016, the peoples' lives who it will make worse are amongst those who can least afford it.
Not like us lot tapping away at 10am of a Wednesday morning all doing very well thank you. Not us lot. The people who are genuinely struggling. They are the ones who are to be sacrificed at the altar of some mythical "sovereignty" and the fantasies of the idle rich on the one hand, or myopic extremists on the other.
some peoples lives have got better in the last 20 years and most people have simply stagnated. The system as it was wasnt taking eveyone with it. Those of us who pointed this out got short shrift . If people arent seeing progress then why would they vote for a system that doesnt benefit them ?
I agree with you, but Brexit is not going to make that better.
You read those stories about people who made £200m on referendum night. £200m in one night! Most people are lucky to earn £1m in their lifetimes.
Nobody knows if it will make it better, However if your choice is sit in a system which is guaranteed to do nothing for you and with politicians who dont registert your problem or take a punt on something which may have some up side but not leave you worse off, which would you go for ?
There is a case before the Court of Session that is due to have an accelerated hearing in, I think, the first week in September. It challenges the right of a PM to prorogate Parliament. It could become very important. It is before Lord Doherty. He is a good lawyer but he won't appreciate being in the eye of this particular storm.
The courts have been willing to make exercise of other prerogatives reviewable. I expect they will here too. Whether that would be enough to overturn an exercise here I don’t know.
So, thanks to Boris, in the eyes of the public "suspending parliament" is now a reasonable, normal thing. Chilling.
It's more normal than overturning a public vote I'd say. I dont think there will be too many complaints from the majority given the underhand tactics used by so many MPs up until today.
Nobody has overturned it you numpty. We have a parliamentary democracy and it is necessary to get parliamentary agreement, that is how are system works. So much for "bring back control"! You leave fanatics have not got the first understanding of how our system works. Your ignorance of how Europe works was, well, just wilfully ignorant, but your stupidity when it comes to our own constitution and traditions beggars belief.
You and the FBPE lot are the fanatics, desperate for your Harman or Clarke led remain coup and happy to block Brexit in every way with zero solutions. Perhaps if you had backed a compromise you wouldn't face this situation. Short sighted or what.
Stop frothing and think rationally. It's embarrassing.
I'm not frothing, I'm fine with this. You were the one wetting her knickers and saying it was chilling ffs
If you leavers are so confident the public is on Boris's side and Parliament is getting in the way of the will of people, then have an election. Before Oct 31st.
To do otherwise is because you don't actually believe that and you are frit charlatans.
Surely the title 'prime minister' is rendered meaningless if Boris closes down parliament. What will he choose to call himself instead? 'Citizen One' perhaps?
Funny but hes still a Minister when parliament is not in session.
The amazing thing about this is that the government is not only about to unilaterally end all its existing trading arrangements, it plans to do it while conducting an ongoing denial-of-service attack on its own parliament.
If you're unilaterally ending all your existing trading arrangements, don't you need parliament to pass laws and things? IANAL but it feels like some of the laws might need updating.
So, thanks to Boris, in the eyes of the public "suspending parliament" is now a reasonable, normal thing. Chilling.
It's more normal than overturning a public vote I'd say. I dont think there will be too many complaints from the majority given the underhand tactics used by so many MPs up until today.
As I say people in my office say this is the right thing to do as parliament seems hell bent on making us remain.
The people in your office seem to have a very limited understanding of how parliamentary democracy works.
No I am not. I'm complaining that because they wont back a renegotiated deal no matter what that makes any years of effort to renegotiate pointless. If all they want is remain that is fine but dont send PM Corbyn on years of pointless renegotiation, that's a waste of time. Otherwise they are in effect saying Corbyn could get the most perfect deal in history and theyd not back it. So why bother sending him to get a perfect deal?
I dont understand the concern here - by ruling out all but their one option they undermine the official position of st least giving Corbyn a chance to get so nothing decent, since they simultaneously say we want to renegotiate but also that they will oppose whatever comes back.
You're saying you don't think they'll vote for the rengotiation+referendum???
As a visceral reaction to the BBC breaking news page, however, there is huge resentment at this step being taken which smells a bit like undermining parliament but I accept that many leavers will be high-fiving at the news.
Only the thick leavers, the smarter ones will realise that such if successful such tactics are likely to be used again.
I don't think there are any smart leavers. Even our very own, logically consistent @Richard_Tyndall who I admire for the clarity of his thought nevertheless believes that pulling the house down around us is worth it because of some kind of indeterminate benefit in the long run. That is not the sign of anyone smart.
he's pulling your house down not his
that is smart
To channel @malcolmg here, be clear he is not pulling my house(s) down.
then why are you worried ?
I am interested in politics because I believe it has the capacity to make peoples' lives better. This is demonstrably making peoples' lives worse and, as I have said from pre-June 2016, the peoples' lives who it will make worse are amongst those who can least afford it.
Not like us lot tapping away at 10am of a Wednesday morning all doing very well thank you. Not us lot. The people who are genuinely struggling. They are the ones who are to be sacrificed at the altar of some mythical "sovereignty" and the fantasies of the idle rich on the one hand, or myopic extremists on the other.
some peoples lives have got better in the last 20 years and most people have simply stagnated. The system as it was wasnt taking eveyone with it. Those of us who pointed this out got short shrift . If people arent seeing progress then why would they vote for a system that doesnt benefit them ?
I agree with you, but Brexit is not going to make that better.
You read those stories about people who made £200m on referendum night. £200m in one night! Most people are lucky to earn £1m in their lifetimes.
I met the CEO of a prominent hedge fund last week. Said Brexit was great because of the volatility.
As a visceral reaction to the BBC breaking news page, however, there is huge resentment at this step being taken which smells a bit like undermining parliament but I accept that many leavers will be high-fiving at the news.
Only the thick leavers, the smarter ones will realise that such if successful such tactics are likely to be used again.
I don't think there are any smart leavers. Even our very own, logically consistent @Richard_Tyndall who I admire for the clarity of his thought nevertheless believes that pulling the house down around us is worth it because of some kind of indeterminate benefit in the long run. That is not the sign of anyone smart.
he's pulling your house down not his
that is smart
To channel @malcolmg here, be clear he is not pulling my house(s) down.
then why are you worried ?
I am interested in politics because I believe it has the capacity to make peoples' lives better. This is demonstrably making peoples' lives worse and, as I have said from pre-June 2016, the peoples' lives who it will make worse are amongst those who can least afford it.
Not like us lot tapping away at 10am of a Wednesday morning all doing very well thank you. Not us lot. The people who are genuinely struggling. They are the ones who are to be sacrificed at the altar of some mythical "sovereignty" and the fantasies of the idle rich on the one hand, or myopic extremists on the other.
some peoples lives have got better in the last 20 years and most people have simply stagnated. The system as it was wasnt taking eveyone with it. Those of us who pointed this out got short shrift . If people arent seeing progress then why would they vote for a system that doesnt benefit them ?
I linked to a video the other day from Mark Blyth (Scottish lecturer at Brown) about the rise of "global Trumpism". He's got a few on the youtube.
He's no fan of Brexit himself but lays out quite clearly with compelling data who has benefited from the past 30 years of globalization and who has lost. Its partial/temporary reversal is in short, a force that can no less be stopped than gravity. What should be concerning us all is what do we wish to replace it with?
If you leavers are so confident the public is on Boris's side and Parliament is getting in the way of the will of people, then have an election. Before Oct 31st.
To do otherwise is because you don't actually believe that and you are frit charlatans.
We had an election in 2017 and it solved nothing, we need strong government now not more weeks/months/years of uncertainty.
"In the UK, under the Representation of the People Act 1985, if the demise of the Crown occurs during a general election, the vote is postponed by fourteen days"
If you leavers are so confident the public is on Boris's side and Parliament is getting in the way of the will of people, then have an election. Before Oct 31st.
To do otherwise is because you don't actually believe that and you are frit charlatans.
We had an election in 2017 and it solved nothing, we need strong government now not more weeks/months/years of uncertainty.
The Gov't appears to be engineering a VoNC in itself here. I'll be voting Lib Dem, but actually like Corbyn I think a General Election is the perfectly proper way to settle this.
Tories for out, Lib Dem for in. Brexit party for war with France.
Other options in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland may be available.
Nobody knows if it will make it better, However if your choice is sit in a system which is guaranteed to do nothing for you and with politicians who dont registert your problem or take a punt on something which may have some up side but not leave you worse off, which would you go for ?
I don't disagree at all. I don't blame people for voting Leave. I do however think they were lied to and their lives are just going to get worse. The EU was never the problem but it was hijacked by charlatans interested in hijacking the situation for their own benefit.
The amazing thing about this is that the government is not only about to unilaterally end all its existing trading arrangements, it plans to do it while conducting an ongoing denial-of-service attack on its own parliament.
If you're unilaterally ending all your existing trading arrangements, don't you need parliament to pass laws and things? IANAL but it feels like some of the laws might need updating.
I agree with you. This (proroguing) is a very bad and stupid move if it comes to pass. Unfortunately I think Boris might have the law on his side. It sets a very bad example for the future and is something that ideally would be prevented by a change in the law to stop both this and future attempts.
If you leavers are so confident the public is on Boris's side and Parliament is getting in the way of the will of people, then have an election. Before Oct 31st.
To do otherwise is because you don't actually believe that and you are frit charlatans.
We had an election in 2017 and it solved nothing, we need strong government now not more weeks/months/years of uncertainty.
I wonder what Amber Rudd is thinking right now. That is, if she is thinking anything: she has probably taken up heroin to block the sense of overwhelming guilt and self-betrayal.
"In the UK, under the Representation of the People Act 1985, if the demise of the Crown occurs during a general election, the vote is postponed by fourteen days"
The Queen is very old.........
And if prorogued Parliament is immediately reconvened...
There is a case before the Court of Session that is due to have an accelerated hearing in, I think, the first week in September. It challenges the right of a PM to prorogate Parliament. It could become very important. It is before Lord Doherty. He is a good lawyer but he won't appreciate being in the eye of this particular storm.
The courts have been willing to make exercise of other prerogatives reviewable. I expect they will here too. Whether that would be enough to overturn an exercise here I don’t know.
It will be a decision by an Outer House Judge, albeit an experienced one. Is he really going to make an order preventing the prorogation of Parliament? I mean, wow, that would be something.
This is a terrible idea and surely the response to Boris's statement will be a VONC.
I could be wrong, but this feels like a mistake by Johnson.
I think it does look like a significant blunder- it seems to have incensed people way beyond the usual suspects. BoJo does not have the numbers to weather the Parliamentary storm and I think this could be a poll tax riot moment for him.
As a visceral reaction to the BBC breaking news page, however, there is huge resentment at this step being taken which smells a bit like undermining parliament but I accept that many leavers will be high-fiving at the news.
Only the thick leavers, the smarter ones will realise that such if successful such tactics are likely to be used again.
I don't think there are any smart leavers. Even our very own, logically consistent @Richard_Tyndall who I admire for the clarity of his thought nevertheless believes that pulling the house down around us is worth it because of some kind of indeterminate benefit in the long run. That is not the sign of anyone smart.
he's pulling your house down not his
that is smart
To channel @malcolmg here, be clear he is not pulling my house(s) down.
then why are you worried ?
I am interested in politics because I believe it has the capacity to make peoples' lives better. This is demonstrably making peoples' lives worse and, as I have said from pre-June 2016, the peoples' lives who it will make worse are amongst those who can least afford it.
Not like us lot tapping away at 10am of a Wednesday morning all doing very well thank you. Not us lot. The people who are genuinely struggling. They are the ones who are to be sacrificed at the altar of some mythical "sovereignty" and the fantasies of the idle rich on the one hand, or myopic extremists on the other.
some peoples lives have got better in the last 20 years and most people have simply stagnated. The system as it was wasnt taking eveyone with it. Those of us who pointed this out got short shrift . If people arent seeing progress then why would they vote for a system that doesnt benefit them ?
Most peoples' lives have become demonstrably better over the past 20 years what on earth are you talking about? They may or may not be seeing progress but progress there has been. Of course what they have also seen is the rise of their neighbour's HP spaffing and a brand spanking new Range Rover Evoque parked over the road, plus they avidly might watch TOWIE and wonder why their lot is so miserable. But they have become richer over the past 20 years although sadly the pace of growth might now slow somewhat.
Sky saying only 3-4 days lost. It feels like it is all engineering MPs forcing through a rushed no-deal, then GE with Boris claiming this is the only way to get past those trying to stop Brexit.
If you leavers are so confident the public is on Boris's side and Parliament is getting in the way of the will of people, then have an election. Before Oct 31st.
To do otherwise is because you don't actually believe that and you are frit charlatans.
We had an election in 2017 and it solved nothing, we need strong government now not more weeks/months/years of uncertainty.
Ideally yes, but whatever happens we wont get that and unfortunately an election at least offers a chance, albeit not guaranteed.
So, thanks to Boris, in the eyes of the public "suspending parliament" is now a reasonable, normal thing. Chilling.
It's more normal than overturning a public vote I'd say. I dont think there will be too many complaints from the majority given the underhand tactics used by so many MPs up until today.
"the majority" does not support No Deal
There is no mandate for no deal
There is no mandate for blocking Brexit. There is a mandate to implement Brexit, given by the votes of 86% given to parties pledging to implement it at the most recent General Election.
So, thanks to Boris, in the eyes of the public "suspending parliament" is now a reasonable, normal thing. Chilling.
It's more normal than overturning a public vote I'd say. I dont think there will be too many complaints from the majority given the underhand tactics used by so many MPs up until today.
As I say people in my office say this is the right thing to do as parliament seems hell bent on making us remain.
The people in your office seem to have a very limited understanding of how parliamentary democracy works.
And that is not surprising.
In reality the public have little or no knowledge or interest in how parliament works.
There is a case before the Court of Session that is due to have an accelerated hearing in, I think, the first week in September. It challenges the right of a PM to prorogate Parliament. It could become very important. It is before Lord Doherty. He is a good lawyer but he won't appreciate being in the eye of this particular storm.
The courts have been willing to make exercise of other prerogatives reviewable. I expect they will here too. Whether that would be enough to overturn an exercise here I don’t know.
It will be a decision by an Outer House Judge, albeit an experienced one. Is he really going to make an order preventing the prorogation of Parliament? I mean, wow, that would be something.
This is a terrible idea and surely the response to Boris's statement will be a VONC.
I could be wrong, but this feels like a mistake by Johnson.
I think it does look like a significant blunder- it seems to have incensed people way beyond the usual suspects. BoJo does not have the numbers to weather the Parliamentary storm and I think this could be a poll tax riot moment for him.
Has it incensed more than the usual suspects?
Our resident Brexiters have lapped it up. Honourable exceptions: Tyndall, Morris Dancer (maybe).
If you leavers are so confident the public is on Boris's side and Parliament is getting in the way of the will of people, then have an election. Before Oct 31st.
To do otherwise is because you don't actually believe that and you are frit charlatans.
We had an election in 2017 and it solved nothing, we need strong government now not more weeks/months/years of uncertainty.
Ideally yes, but whatever happens we wont get that and unfortunately an election at least offers a chance, albeit not guaranteed.
It won't solve Brexit in the sense people will be voting on a number of issues and it will not have the gravitas of the initial referendum regarding what path we choose.
As it actually doesn't push a VoNC forward. Things need to be ready for the EU conference on October 17th so all you need to do is ensure you have your replacement PM lined up on the 15th...
Nobody knows if it will make it better, However if your choice is sit in a system which is guaranteed to do nothing for you and with politicians who dont registert your problem or take a punt on something which may have some up side but not leave you worse off, which would you go for ?
I don't disagree at all. I don't blame people for voting Leave. I do however think they were lied to and their lives are just going to get worse. The EU was never the problem but it was hijacked by charlatans interested in hijacking the situation for their own benefit.
It's a complete disgrace.
Go and learn some economics and come back and tell us why the lives of CDEs in the UK were made better by EU membership. I'm sure most of them, like you and me, didn't need some fancy official campaign group slogans to decide which way to vote.
The Gov't appears to be engineering a VoNC in itself here. I'll be voting Lib Dem, but actually like Corbyn I think a General Election is the perfectly proper way to settle this.
Tories for out, Lib Dem for in. Brexit party for war with France.
Other options in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland may be available.
If you leavers are so confident the public is on Boris's side and Parliament is getting in the way of the will of people, then have an election. Before Oct 31st.
To do otherwise is because you don't actually believe that and you are frit charlatans.
We had an election in 2017 and it solved nothing, we need strong government now not more weeks/months/years of uncertainty.
Ideally yes, but whatever happens we wont get that and unfortunately an election at least offers a chance, albeit not guaranteed.
It won't solve Brexit in the sense people will be voting on a number of issues and it will not have the gravitas of the initial referendum regarding what path we choose.
No. You know that the public does not want no-deal and you are trying to force it through anyway.
I wonder what Amber Rudd is thinking right now. That is, if she is thinking anything: she has probably taken up heroin to block the sense of overwhelming guilt and self-betrayal.
I suspect she's thinking how lovely and soft the leather seats are of the ministerial car.
Nobody knows if it will make it better, However if your choice is sit in a system which is guaranteed to do nothing for you and with politicians who dont registert your problem or take a punt on something which may have some up side but not leave you worse off, which would you go for ?
I don't disagree at all. I don't blame people for voting Leave. I do however think they were lied to and their lives are just going to get worse. The EU was never the problem but it was hijacked by charlatans interested in hijacking the situation for their own benefit.
It's a complete disgrace.
Go and learn some economics and come back and tell us why the lives of CDEs in the UK were made better by EU membership. I'm sure most of them, like you and me, didn't need some fancy official campaign group slogans to decide which way to vote.
Maybe you should learn to read because I didn't say that the EU definitely made their lives better. I said that leaving the EU won't make their lives better.
There is a case before the Court of Session that is due to have an accelerated hearing in, I think, the first week in September. It challenges the right of a PM to prorogate Parliament. It could become very important. It is before Lord Doherty. He is a good lawyer but he won't appreciate being in the eye of this particular storm.
The courts have been willing to make exercise of other prerogatives reviewable. I expect they will here too. Whether that would be enough to overturn an exercise here I don’t know.
It will be a decision by an Outer House Judge, albeit an experienced one. Is he really going to make an order preventing the prorogation of Parliament? I mean, wow, that would be something.
This is a terrible idea and surely the response to Boris's statement will be a VONC.
Dream on. When MPs demand the right to act contrary to the voter's wishes, they act ultra vires. Whatever the constitution says. If Boris does it, he is calling the MP's bluff.
A GE held on "Who runs the UK? MPs or voters? might not go well for the MPs.
This is not about no-deal Brexit. it's about Brexit or Remain.
Which voters' wishes? Just the ones who voted for the MP? (most MPs are elected on a minority of the votes cast in their constituency) All the people who voted in their constituency? (who certainly wish for lots of incompatible things)
Can (should) an MP not use their own judgement? Can (should) they not take into consideration the interests of people who didn't vote? For example, everyone under 18, future generations. Can (should) they not take the wider interests of the country (or the world even) into consideration?
Of course MPs have the right (and sometimes the duty) to act contrary to voters' wishes. Of course voters have the right to vote them out at the next election if enough of them don't like it.
Nobody knows if it will make it better, However if your choice is sit in a system which is guaranteed to do nothing for you and with politicians who dont registert your problem or take a punt on something which may have some up side but not leave you worse off, which would you go for ?
I don't disagree at all. I don't blame people for voting Leave. I do however think they were lied to and their lives are just going to get worse. The EU was never the problem but it was hijacked by charlatans interested in hijacking the situation for their own benefit.
It's a complete disgrace.
With the greatest of respect this level of arrogance from someone who is clearly far from an expert themselves is music to my ears. The EU has always been a problem for millions of Brits. Not the problem that defines their lives but when faced with an in/out vote one that had few redeeming qualities.
There is a case before the Court of Session that is due to have an accelerated hearing in, I think, the first week in September. It challenges the right of a PM to prorogate Parliament. It could become very important. It is before Lord Doherty. He is a good lawyer but he won't appreciate being in the eye of this particular storm.
The courts have been willing to make exercise of other prerogatives reviewable. I expect they will here too. Whether that would be enough to overturn an exercise here I don’t know.
It will be a decision by an Outer House Judge, albeit an experienced one. Is he really going to make an order preventing the prorogation of Parliament? I mean, wow, that would be something.
This is a terrible idea and surely the response to Boris's statement will be a VONC.
I agree. The thinking (I use the word in a technical sense) behind this must be to bring things to a head earlier so there is still time for a Brexit election. It really doesn't make sense otherwise. Boris and Cummings must have concluded that Parliament was going to force a further extension and they are determined to stop it by an election if necessary. Its ballsy but whilst I completely get the frustration with a Parliament that won't make up its mind I don't think this is right.
If you leavers are so confident the public is on Boris's side and Parliament is getting in the way of the will of people, then have an election. Before Oct 31st.
To do otherwise is because you don't actually believe that and you are frit charlatans.
We had an election in 2017 and it solved nothing, we need strong government now not more weeks/months/years of uncertainty.
Ideally yes, but whatever happens we wont get that and unfortunately an election at least offers a chance, albeit not guaranteed.
It won't solve Brexit in the sense people will be voting on a number of issues and it will not have the gravitas of the initial referendum regarding what path we choose.
No. You know that the public does not want no-deal and you are trying to force it through anyway.
I have nothing but contempt for you and your ilk.
I want a deal so that is incorrect, and I supported May's withdrawal agreement. I hold those who didn't support any kind of 'leave' amendment in contempt and it just so happens the majority were on the remain side.
The Gov't appears to be engineering a VoNC in itself here. I'll be voting Lib Dem, but actually like Corbyn I think a General Election is the perfectly proper way to settle this.
Tories for out, Lib Dem for in. Brexit party for war with France.
Other options in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland may be available.
The Gov't appears to be engineering a VoNC in itself here. I'll be voting Lib Dem, but actually like Corbyn I think a General Election is the perfectly proper way to settle this.
Tories for out, Lib Dem for in. Brexit party for war with France.
Other options in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland may be available.
And labour ??????
Labour - a second negotiation to a softer exit followed by a referendum. It's a harder sell but it keeps some leavers on board.
As a visceral reaction to the BBC breaking news page, however, there is huge resentment at this step being taken which smells a bit like undermining parliament but I accept that many leavers will be high-fiving at the news.
Only the thick leavers, the smarter ones will realise that such if successful such tactics are likely to be used again.
I don't think there are any smart leavers. Even our very own, logically consistent @Richard_Tyndall who I admire for the clarity of his thought nevertheless believes that pulling the house down around us is worth it because of some kind of indeterminate benefit in the long run. That is not the sign of anyone smart.
he's pulling your house down not his
that is smart
To channel @malcolmg here, be clear he is not pulling my house(s) down.
then why are you worried ?
I am interested in politics because I believe it has the capacity to make peoples' lives better. This is demonstrably making peoples' lives worse and, as I have said from pre-June 2016, the peoples' lives who it will make worse are amongst those who can least afford it.
Not like us lot tapping away at 10am of a Wednesday morning all doing very well thank you. Not us lot. The people who are genuinely struggling. They are the ones who are to be sacrificed at the altar of some mythical "sovereignty" and the fantasies of the idle rich on the one hand, or myopic extremists on the other.
some peoples lives have got better in the last 20 years and most people have simply stagnated. The system as it was wasnt taking eveyone with it. Those of us who pointed this out got short shrift . If people arent seeing progress then why would they vote for a system that doesnt benefit them ?
Most peoples' lives have become demonstrably better over the past 20 years what on earth are you talking about? They may or may not be seeing progress but progress there has been. Of course what they have also seen is the rise of their neighbour's HP spaffing and a brand spanking new Range Rover Evoque parked over the road, plus they avidly might watch TOWIE and wonder why their lot is so miserable. But they have become richer over the past 20 years although sadly the pace of growth might now slow somewhat.
Nobody knows if it will make it better, However if your choice is sit in a system which is guaranteed to do nothing for you and with politicians who dont registert your problem or take a punt on something which may have some up side but not leave you worse off, which would you go for ?
I don't disagree at all. I don't blame people for voting Leave. I do however think they were lied to and their lives are just going to get worse. The EU was never the problem but it was hijacked by charlatans interested in hijacking the situation for their own benefit.
It's a complete disgrace.
Go and learn some economics and come back and tell us why the lives of CDEs in the UK were made better by EU membership. I'm sure most of them, like you and me, didn't need some fancy official campaign group slogans to decide which way to vote.
Maybe you should learn to read because I didn't say that the EU definitely made their lives better. I said that leaving the EU won't make their lives better.
"The EU was never the problem". I (and many others) disagree with this comment.
Mr. Walker, don't believe I've written anything to indicate approval. And, from an objective perspective, I've written that I think it's a mistake by Johnson, likely to embolden his opponents.
It's stupid. If he wanted to be ruthless he should've prorogued more. If he wanted to be wise and let the wibbling coalition have every opportunity to fail, and keep his own MPs on side, he should've done nothing and let opposition likely fizzle.
Not only that, he's made it appear that he fears losing in the Commons.
His opponents get a morale booster, many are outraged (including some on the Leave side), and it doesn't even cut the legs off the opposition so it's not effective.
However.
Some will support it, either because they support no deal departure or because they seen the constitutional bullshittery that the pro-EU MPs have fiddled with (Grieve's meaningful vote amendment worked so very well) and believe it's justified to act in kind in response.
I'd reiterate what I've said many times. Boris Johnson is not fit to be in Cabinet, let alone PM. He remains less atrocious than having a far left fool in charge.
That's the joyous choice we will likely face at the next election. The problem the PM faces is he combines the ambition of Genghis Khan with the Machiavellian cunning of Jar Jar Binks.
The Gov't appears to be engineering a VoNC in itself here. I'll be voting Lib Dem, but actually like Corbyn I think a General Election is the perfectly proper way to settle this.
Tories for out, Lib Dem for in. Brexit party for war with France.
Other options in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland may be available.
And labour ??????
I was thinking this is a perfect storm for Labour.
In a brexit / remain fight they are tuck somewhere in limbo.
Lib Dems on other hand might well exceed expectations.
I could be wrong, but this feels like a mistake by Johnson.
I think it does look like a significant blunder- it seems to have incensed people way beyond the usual suspects. BoJo does not have the numbers to weather the Parliamentary storm and I think this could be a poll tax riot moment for him.
Has it incensed more than the usual suspects?
Our resident Brexiters have lapped it up. Honourable exceptions: Tyndall, Morris Dancer (maybe).
Those two are normally the honourable exceptions. They are the only Brexit supporters who ever articulate their views with reasoned argument, even if I disagree. All the rest seem to conform to the swivel-eyed low IQ stereotype
There is a case before the Court of Session that is due to have an accelerated hearing in, I think, the first week in September. It challenges the right of a PM to prorogate Parliament. It could become very important. It is before Lord Doherty. He is a good lawyer but he won't appreciate being in the eye of this particular storm.
The courts have been willing to make exercise of other prerogatives reviewable. I expect they will here too. Whether that would be enough to overturn an exercise here I don’t know.
It will be a decision by an Outer House Judge, albeit an experienced one. Is he really going to make an order preventing the prorogation of Parliament? I mean, wow, that would be something.
This is a terrible idea and surely the response to Boris's statement will be a VONC.
I agree. The thinking (I use the word in a technical sense) behind this must be to bring things to a head earlier so there is still time for a Brexit election. It really doesn't make sense otherwise. Boris and Cummings must have concluded that Parliament was going to force a further extension and they are determined to stop it by an election if necessary. Its ballsy but whilst I completely get the frustration with a Parliament that won't make up its mind I don't think this is right.
I don’t think they get what they want this way either.
Nobody knows if it will make it better, However if your choice is sit in a system which is guaranteed to do nothing for you and with politicians who dont registert your problem or take a punt on something which may have some up side but not leave you worse off, which would you go for ?
I don't disagree at all. I don't blame people for voting Leave. I do however think they were lied to and their lives are just going to get worse. The EU was never the problem but it was hijacked by charlatans interested in hijacking the situation for their own benefit.
It's a complete disgrace.
Go and learn some economics and come back and tell us why the lives of CDEs in the UK were made better by EU membership. I'm sure most of them, like you and me, didn't need some fancy official campaign group slogans to decide which way to vote.
Maybe you should learn to read because I didn't say that the EU definitely made their lives better. I said that leaving the EU won't make their lives better.
"The EU was never the problem". I (and many others) disagree with this comment.
There was some research from one of the supranational bodies that suggested that globalisation could not be blamed for wage stagnation, since globalisation itself has basically been static for the past ten years or so.
The Gov't appears to be engineering a VoNC in itself here. I'll be voting Lib Dem, but actually like Corbyn I think a General Election is the perfectly proper way to settle this.
Tories for out, Lib Dem for in. Brexit party for war with France.
Other options in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland may be available.
And labour ??????
I'd think about it if I used the trains more regularly, but I don't and can't really afford McDonnell's garden tax.
I could be wrong, but this feels like a mistake by Johnson.
I think it does look like a significant blunder- it seems to have incensed people way beyond the usual suspects. BoJo does not have the numbers to weather the Parliamentary storm and I think this could be a poll tax riot moment for him.
Has it incensed more than the usual suspects?
Our resident Brexiters have lapped it up. Honourable exceptions: Tyndall, Morris Dancer (maybe).
Well a significant minority of Conservative MPs are not going to run with this... and the local Brexiters are more enthusiastic than expert.
So, thanks to Boris, in the eyes of the public "suspending parliament" is now a reasonable, normal thing. Chilling.
It's more normal than overturning a public vote I'd say. I dont think there will be too many complaints from the majority given the underhand tactics used by so many MPs up until today.
"the majority" does not support No Deal
There is no mandate for no deal
There is no mandate for blocking Brexit. There is a mandate to implement Brexit, given by the votes of 86% given to parties pledging to implement it at the most recent General Election.
No.
Tories and Labour didnt support No Deal in their 2017 manifestos.
up here I dont look at the blokes evoque but rather wonder why hes running that Fiesta for another year.
Borrowing has for sure increased, which was precisely my point about the HP and the Evoque. "Up here" - what in Warks? Plenty of borrowing for nice new cars there also but even if you ("one" - not you of course, you are above such worries) are running an old fiesta then you are better off than you were 20 years ago. Not 10 years ago which is the link you sent me - now let's see what event happened 10 years ago which might have depressed wages? Hmm. Nope. Can't think.
20 years, meanwhile, which was your comment, people are better off.
There is a case before the Court of Session that is due to have an accelerated hearing in, I think, the first week in September. It challenges the right of a PM to prorogate Parliament. It could become very important. It is before Lord Doherty. He is a good lawyer but he won't appreciate being in the eye of this particular storm.
The courts have been willing to make exercise of other prerogatives reviewable. I expect they will here too. Whether that would be enough to overturn an exercise here I don’t know.
It will be a decision by an Outer House Judge, albeit an experienced one. Is he really going to make an order preventing the prorogation of Parliament? I mean, wow, that would be something.
This is a terrible idea and surely the response to Boris's statement will be a VONC.
I agree. The thinking (I use the word in a technical sense) behind this must be to bring things to a head earlier so there is still time for a Brexit election. It really doesn't make sense otherwise. Boris and Cummings must have concluded that Parliament was going to force a further extension and they are determined to stop it by an election if necessary. Its ballsy but whilst I completely get the frustration with a Parliament that won't make up its mind I don't think this is right.
I don’t think they get what they want this way either.
They may be underestimating Corbyn’s ability to be ineffectual.
As a visceral reaction to the BBC breaking news page, however, there is huge resentment at this step being taken which smells a bit like undermining parliament but I accept that many leavers will be high-fiving at the news.
Only the thick leavers, the smarter ones will realise that such if successful such tactics are likely to be used again.
I don't think there are any smart leavers. Even our very own, logically consistent @Richard_Tyndall who I admire for the clarity of his thought nevertheless believes that pulling the house down around us is worth it because of some kind of indeterminate benefit in the long run. That is not the sign of anyone smart.
he's pulling your house down not his
that is smart
To channel @malcolmg here, be clear he is not pulling my house(s) down.
then why are you worried ?
I am interested in politics because I believe it has the capacity to make peoples' lives better. This is demonstrably making peoples' lives worse and, as I have said from pre-June 2016, the peoples' lives who it will make worse are amongst those who can least afford it.
Not like us lot tapping away at 10am of a Wednesday morning all doing very well thank you. Not us lot. The people who are genuinely struggling. They are the ones who are to be sacrificed at the altar of some mythical "sovereignty" and the fantasies of the idle rich on the one hand, or myopic extremists on the other.
some peoples lives have got better in the last 20 years and most people have simply stagnated. The system as it was wasnt taking eveyone with it. Those of us who pointed this out got short shrift . If people arent seeing progress then why would they vote for a system that doesnt benefit them ?
Most peoples' lives have become demonstrably better over the past 20 years what on earth are you talking about? They may or may not be seeing progress but progress there has been. Of course what they have also seen is the rise of their neighbour's HP spaffing and a brand spanking new Range Rover Evoque parked over the road, plus they avidly might watch TOWIE and wonder why their lot is so miserable. But they have become richer over the past 20 years although sadly the pace of growth might now slow somewhat.
Oh dear. And we wonder why your brand of Toryism is dying. You should listen to the likes of Charles Murray - he was popular with Tories once.
If you leavers are so confident the public is on Boris's side and Parliament is getting in the way of the will of people, then have an election. Before Oct 31st.
To do otherwise is because you don't actually believe that and you are frit charlatans.
We had an election in 2017 and it solved nothing, we need strong government now not more weeks/months/years of uncertainty.
I am sure that arch Brexiteer Vladimir would agree with you. He probably has a suggestion as to who should lead gullible folk such as yourself, preferably without the irritation of parliament.
The Gov't appears to be engineering a VoNC in itself here. I'll be voting Lib Dem, but actually like Corbyn I think a General Election is the perfectly proper way to settle this.
Tories for out, Lib Dem for in. Brexit party for war with France.
Other options in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland may be available.
And labour ??????
I'd think about it if I used the trains more regularly, but I don't and can't really afford McDonnell's garden tax.
There is a case before the Court of Session that is due to have an accelerated hearing in, I think, the first week in September. It challenges the right of a PM to prorogate Parliament. It could become very important. It is before Lord Doherty. He is a good lawyer but he won't appreciate being in the eye of this particular storm.
The courts have been willing to make exercise of other prerogatives reviewable. I expect they will here too. Whether that would be enough to overturn an exercise here I don’t know.
It will be a decision by an Outer House Judge, albeit an experienced one. Is he really going to make an order preventing the prorogation of Parliament? I mean, wow, that would be something.
This is a terrible idea and surely the response to Boris's statement will be a VONC.
I agree. The thinking (I use the word in a technical sense) behind this must be to bring things to a head earlier so there is still time for a Brexit election. It really doesn't make sense otherwise. Boris and Cummings must have concluded that Parliament was going to force a further extension and they are determined to stop it by an election if necessary. Its ballsy but whilst I completely get the frustration with a Parliament that won't make up its mind I don't think this is right.
I don’t think they get what they want this way either.
The pressure to respond to this on Corbyn will be high. That suits him fine. His primary objective has always been another election anyway. Yesterday he went along with the legislative route. Today he has a chance to go back to plan A. I think he will take it.
The election itself is one of the most difficult to call I can remember.
Nobody knows if it will make it better, However if your choice is sit in a system which is guaranteed to do nothing for you and with politicians who dont registert your problem or take a punt on something which may have some up side but not leave you worse off, which would you go for ?
I don't disagree at all. I don't blame people for voting Leave. I do however think they were lied to and their lives are just going to get worse. The EU was never the problem but it was hijacked by charlatans interested in hijacking the situation for their own benefit.
It's a complete disgrace.
Go and learn some economics and come back and tell us why the lives of CDEs in the UK were made better by EU membership. I'm sure most of them, like you and me, didn't need some fancy official campaign group slogans to decide which way to vote.
I know there are a variety of causes, many not EU-related, but the lives of CDEs are vastly better now by almost every measure than in 1973.
Not being Panglossian about it - there are lots of social and economic challenges - but incomes and standard of living are much higher, inflation much lower, health and education are better etc.
Some of these do indeed relate to EU membership. We've been part of a large trading bloc, built stronger and stronger trading relationships with EU neighbours, drawn investment via free movement of capital, learned from each other via free movement of labour, and poorer regions have benefited from substantial investment.
As a visceral reaction to the BBC breaking news page, however, there is huge resentment at this step being taken which smells a bit like undermining parliament but I accept that many leavers will be high-fiving at the news.
Only the thick leavers, the smarter ones will realise that such if successful such tactics are likely to be used again.
.
he's pulling your house down not his
that is smart
To channel @malcolmg here, be clear he is not pulling my house(s) down.
then why are you worried ?
.
some peoples lives have got better in the last 20 years and most people have simply stagnated. The system as it was wasnt taking eveyone with it. Those of us who pointed this out got short shrift . If people arent seeing progress then why would they vote for a system that doesnt benefit them ?
Most peoples' lives have become demonstrably better over the past 20 years what on earth are you talking about? They may or may not be seeing progress but progress there has been. Of course what they have also seen is the rise of their neighbour's HP spaffing and a brand spanking new Range Rover Evoque parked over the road, plus they avidly might watch TOWIE and wonder why their lot is so miserable. But they have become richer over the past 20 years although sadly the pace of growth might now slow somewhat.
up here I dont look at the blokes evoque but rather wonder why hes running that Fiesta for another year.
Yes this is correct. Real wages haven't gone anywhere but sideways in a couple of decades. It's growth in debt that has artificially inflated GDP growth (growth in UK debt has actually far exceeded GDP in the same period). The growth in debt/QE has also led to asset price inflation, which has compounded the situation.
In short, capitalism has ceased to work for those without capital. No one should hence be surprised by the rise of an old fashioned anti capitalist like Corbyn, or those that seek to refashion capitalism for a new post-globalist/neoliberal age (Trump, Johnson and countless others).
Mr. Dawning, at the risk of banging on about being right (sorry), I* did suggest that Johnson winning the top job and doing it by advocating something he didn't want would be very in keeping with past form.
*Ok, me, and probably a hundred other people here too.
The Gov't appears to be engineering a VoNC in itself here. I'll be voting Lib Dem, but actually like Corbyn I think a General Election is the perfectly proper way to settle this.
Tories for out, Lib Dem for in. Brexit party for war with France.
Other options in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland may be available.
This is exactly what they're doing and have been since BJ was annointed.
There's a substantial future electoral advantage in a VONC from a parliament (perceived at least) to have been hell bent on blocking any form of Brexit for 3 years. Every leave voter and those Remain voters who think democracy should be respected (however batshit crazy).
Hard to see how an already split Remain vote are going to stop a re energised Leave vote outside Scotland and large urban areas. Tactical voting? Youthquake? Not sure they'll have the numbers even then.
“The economics of Brexit are almost trivially easy, which is why there is near-universal agreement among experts that Brexit will cost us dear. Trade costs rise with our closest neighbours from both tariffs and regulatory divergence, so trade will fall. Since the lesson of human development is that trade makes us average richer, Brexit will make us poorer. And the more extreme is the form of Brexit, the bigger is the fall of trade and income...
...The pain will accumulate gradually. Brexit is a cunning domestic abuser of the economy. He hits us where the bruises do not show easily – it will be a gradual accumulation of financial pain over many, many years.”
John van Reenen is a professor at MIT’s department of economics and Sloan School of Management. From October 2003 to July 2016 he was professor of economics and the director of the Centre for Economic Performance (CEP) at LSE. He has published widely on the economics of innovation, labour markets and productivity. In 2009 he received the Yrjö Jahnsson Award, the European equivalent to the US Bates Clark Medal, awarded every two years to the best economist in Europe under the age of 45.
Nobody knows if it will make it better, However if your choice is sit in a system which is guaranteed to do nothing for you and with politicians who dont registert your problem or take a punt on something which may have some up side but not leave you worse off, which would you go for ?
I don't disagree at all. I don't blame people for voting Leave. I do however think they were lied to and their lives are just going to get worse. The EU was never the problem but it was hijacked by charlatans interested in hijacking the situation for their own benefit.
It's a complete disgrace.
Go and learn some economics and come back and tell us why the lives of CDEs in the UK were made better by EU membership. I'm sure most of them, like you and me, didn't need some fancy official campaign group slogans to decide which way to vote.
Maybe you should learn to read because I didn't say that the EU definitely made their lives better. I said that leaving the EU won't make their lives better.
"The EU was never the problem". I (and many others) disagree with this comment.
Well you are wrong.
Well if you're to be taken seriously you'll have to explain why. I'll ask for the umpteenth time today. Why have real wages flatlined in the UK for so long, despite a record period of full employment? I have my hypothesis - the marginal cost of low skilled labour has been capped by an effectively infinite pool of EU labour bidding down its price. What's your hypothesis?
There is a case before the Court of Session that is due to have an accelerated hearing in, I think, the first week in September. It challenges the right of a PM to prorogate Parliament. It could become very important. It is before Lord Doherty. He is a good lawyer but he won't appreciate being in the eye of this particular storm.
The courts have been willing to make exercise of other prerogatives reviewable. I expect they will here too. Whether that would be enough to overturn an exercise here I don’t know.
It will be a decision by an Outer House Judge, albeit an experienced one. Is he really going to make an order preventing the prorogation of Parliament? I mean, wow, that would be something.
This is a terrible idea and surely the response to Boris's statement will be a VONC.
I agree. The thinking (I use the word in a technical sense) behind this must be to bring things to a head earlier so there is still time for a Brexit election. It really doesn't make sense otherwise. Boris and Cummings must have concluded that Parliament was going to force a further extension and they are determined to stop it by an election if necessary. Its ballsy but whilst I completely get the frustration with a Parliament that won't make up its mind I don't think this is right.
It's certainly ballsy and is about regaining momentum and forcing the news cycle. People are fed up with Brexit and may give Boris benefit of the doubt. At least he seems seriously attempting to sort this, instead of the endless prevarication and lack of clarity offered by everyone else (LibDems excepted).
The Conservative Party has lost it's USP as the party of business and the economy. It has lost it's USP as a broad church. It has lost it's USP as the leading party of the union. It has now lost it's USP as the main guardian of the constitution and sensible government. The Conservative Party is no longer. It is dead. It is now a narrow minded party for narrow minded far right wingers and ex UKIP/BNP/Brexit Party fascists. I am glad I have resigned my membership.
Comments
You read those stories about people who made £200m on referendum night. £200m in one night!
Most people are lucky to earn £1m in their lifetimes.
There is no mandate for no deal
Nemesis, by Max Hastings, gives a very grim account of the war in the Pacific and Far East.
I dont understand the concern here - by ruling out all but their one option they undermine the official position of st least giving Corbyn a chance to get so nothing decent, since they simultaneously say we want to renegotiate but also that they will oppose whatever comes back.
To do otherwise is because you don't actually believe that and you are frit charlatans.
If you're unilaterally ending all your existing trading arrangements, don't you need parliament to pass laws and things? IANAL but it feels like some of the laws might need updating.
I could be wrong, but this feels like a mistake by Johnson.
I went rather quiet.
He's no fan of Brexit himself but lays out quite clearly with compelling data who has benefited from the past 30 years of globalization and who has lost. Its partial/temporary reversal is in short, a force that can no less be stopped than gravity. What should be concerning us all is what do we wish to replace it with?
The Queen is very old.........
Tories for out,
Lib Dem for in.
Brexit party for war with France.
Other options in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland may be available.
It's a complete disgrace.
Have a good day
This is a terrible idea and surely the response to Boris's statement will be a VONC.
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1166642442180988928
In reality the public have little or no knowledge or interest in how parliament works.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/08/04/nothing-up-my-sleeve/
Our resident Brexiters have lapped it up.
Honourable exceptions: Tyndall, Morris Dancer (maybe).
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1166642447386103810
As it actually doesn't push a VoNC forward. Things need to be ready for the EU conference on October 17th so all you need to do is ensure you have your replacement PM lined up on the 15th...
I have nothing but contempt for you and your ilk.
You then announce on September 11th a VoNC for October 14th which overrides everything else.
Just the ones who voted for the MP? (most MPs are elected on a minority of the votes cast in their constituency)
All the people who voted in their constituency? (who certainly wish for lots of incompatible things)
Can (should) an MP not use their own judgement?
Can (should) they not take into consideration the interests of people who didn't vote? For example, everyone under 18, future generations.
Can (should) they not take the wider interests of the country (or the world even) into consideration?
Of course MPs have the right (and sometimes the duty) to act contrary to voters' wishes.
Of course voters have the right to vote them out at the next election if enough of them don't like it.
Borrowing has fuelled peopsperity, not wages.
https://fullfact.org/economy/how-have-wages-changed/
up here I dont look at the blokes evoque but rather wonder why hes running that Fiesta for another year.
It's stupid. If he wanted to be ruthless he should've prorogued more. If he wanted to be wise and let the wibbling coalition have every opportunity to fail, and keep his own MPs on side, he should've done nothing and let opposition likely fizzle.
Not only that, he's made it appear that he fears losing in the Commons.
His opponents get a morale booster, many are outraged (including some on the Leave side), and it doesn't even cut the legs off the opposition so it's not effective.
However.
Some will support it, either because they support no deal departure or because they seen the constitutional bullshittery that the pro-EU MPs have fiddled with (Grieve's meaningful vote amendment worked so very well) and believe it's justified to act in kind in response.
I'd reiterate what I've said many times. Boris Johnson is not fit to be in Cabinet, let alone PM. He remains less atrocious than having a far left fool in charge.
That's the joyous choice we will likely face at the next election. The problem the PM faces is he combines the ambition of Genghis Khan with the Machiavellian cunning of Jar Jar Binks.
In a brexit / remain fight they are tuck somewhere in limbo.
Lib Dems on other hand might well exceed expectations.
The report blamed QE, basically.
Tories and Labour didnt support No Deal in their 2017 manifestos.
20 years, meanwhile, which was your comment, people are better off.
https://ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/mwb6/ukea
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita
The election itself is one of the most difficult to call I can remember.
Not being Panglossian about it - there are lots of social and economic challenges - but incomes and standard of living are much higher, inflation much lower, health and education are better etc.
Some of these do indeed relate to EU membership. We've been part of a large trading bloc, built stronger and stronger trading relationships with EU neighbours, drawn investment via free movement of capital, learned from each other via free movement of labour, and poorer regions have benefited from substantial investment.
In short, capitalism has ceased to work for those without capital. No one should hence be surprised by the rise of an old fashioned anti capitalist like Corbyn, or those that seek to refashion capitalism for a new post-globalist/neoliberal age (Trump, Johnson and countless others).
*Ok, me, and probably a hundred other people here too.
There's a substantial future electoral advantage in a VONC from a parliament (perceived at least) to have been hell bent on blocking any form of Brexit for 3 years. Every leave voter and those Remain voters who think democracy should be respected (however batshit crazy).
Hard to see how an already split Remain vote are going to stop a re energised Leave vote outside Scotland and large urban areas. Tactical voting? Youthquake?
Not sure they'll have the numbers even then.
...The pain will accumulate gradually. Brexit is a cunning domestic abuser of the economy. He hits us where the bruises do not show easily – it will be a gradual accumulation of financial pain over many, many years.”
John van Reenen is a professor at MIT’s department of economics and Sloan School of Management. From October 2003 to July 2016 he was professor of economics and the director of the Centre for Economic Performance (CEP) at LSE. He has published widely on the economics of innovation, labour markets and productivity. In 2009 he received the Yrjö Jahnsson Award, the European equivalent to the US Bates Clark Medal, awarded every two years to the best economist in Europe under the age of 45.
https://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1166648430216790017