RLB is doing all she can to ensure that those voters who have abandoned labour over Brexit are gone for good.
On a wider note, her continued self-identification as a Brexit backer will make it tough for her to win a Labour leadership election when the time eventually comes. Same with Laura Pidcock. This is a significant problem for the far-left. They have no viable, long-term Corbyn replacement. That is why we can expect Corbyn to remain in place for a number of years yet.
RLB confirming what we all already knew - that Labour won’t support anyone except Corbyn for PM following a vote of no confidence is the government.
So, any attempt at a GoNU is going to require more than 200 suicidal political lemmings floor crossers from the two largest parties.
I suppose it makes some kind of twisted sense. If you are in a Cult which venerates the Dear Leader, you aren't going to be psychologically capable of even considering putting Ken Clarke as PM for even a day.
Even if Ed Miliband was still Labour leader, it still makes absolutely no sense for Labour to back a GoNU. If No Deal is a disaster, then those desperate to avoid it should be prepared to support a proper Labour government. If they're not prepared to, it clearly isn't that bad an outcome.
Penny for Luciana Berger's (among others) thoughts the day they realise/realised there will at some point be a forced choice between backing No Deal and backing Corbyn as PM.
That made sense when there was time to elect a proper Labour government, there isn't now.
Exactly. If there was a non-racist, reasonable Labour government we wouldn't be in this mess. Right now the opposition leader is one that commemorates Jew-murderers, so elevating him to the head of the British government would be holding up a middle finger to British Jews. We won't be sacrificed for political games.
I think this guy is a Brexiter plant. Just like Katie Hopkins is some sort of left lib plant. Perhaps every obnoxious turd on Twitter is doing it to make the other side (their actual side) look good.
Yes, of course. The right to vote in the UK is conditional on the possession of certain types of nationality.
If this is your country then there is no precondition of nationality by definition.
Some guests from other countries can vote too, which is a legacy to viewing more people as of this country. But everyone of this country meets the definition by defintion, it is a truism.
Yes, the right to vote in the UK is conditional on the possession of certain citizenships. As it is in other countries, too, of course. The right to vote is not a fundamental right, it is a conditional one.
If something is fundamental it cannot be conditional.
There aren't any conditions. All free adult citizens have the same rights.
Possession of citizenship - which is not mentioned in the UN Charter - creates a condition. An interesting corollary to this is that people born in Northern Ireland do have the right to Irish citizenship and so could, in theory, vote in EU elections if they so wished.
And, from changes in Irish law due to come into force in October, Irish passport holders resident in the UK will be able to vote in Dail and Ireland European Parliament elections.
Problem solved!!
How do NI citizens who weren't born there vote?
There is no such thing as Northern Irish citizenship.
Indeed but there is UK citizenship and NI is part of the UK.
Lets say a doctor moves from India to Northern Ireland, sets up a home there and acquires local citizenship. How do they vote in European Parliamentary elections? How do they vote and get their vote counted in the European Council?
He can't acquire local citizenship. It does not exist.
He can, he can become a UK citizen rather than [or as well as] an Indian one. Now how do they vote?
If something is fundamental it cannot be conditional.
There aren't any conditions. All free adult citizens have the same rights.
Possession of citizenship - which is not mentioned in the UN Charter - creates a condition. An interesting corollary to this is that people born in Northern Ireland do have the right to Irish citizenship and so could, in theory, vote in EU elections if they so wished.
And, from changes in Irish law due to come into force in October, Irish passport holders resident in the UK will be able to vote in Dail and Ireland European Parliament elections.
Problem solved!!
How do NI citizens who weren't born there vote?
If you mean "People who live in NI and were born there" then they can do it by getting a Irish passport as per the GFA. If you mean "People of Irish descent who live in GB or NI" then they can do it by getting an Irish passport as per Eire citizenship rules. If you mean "People with an Irish passport who live in GB or NI" then they already have a passport and so can vote.
I specifically said "who weren't born there" so why would I mean "and were born there"?
Someone born anywhere in the world outside of NI, who has moved to NI, made that there home, naturalised and become a citizen there - how do they vote?
Such people will be UK citizens, not Irish citizens. They certainly are not of "Irish Descent" unless their parents where born on the island of Ireland.
If it was clear it would say citizenship. It doesn't. There is no reason for it not to if citizenship was the intended standard. There is, of course, a big difference between being a subject and a citizen. The 1914 act did not create British citizenship.
It is clear. It literally says his country. Citizens of this country, formerly subjects of this country are quite clearly who this applies to. It has never applied to all aliens in this country.
Citizenship continues where subjects came beforehand, its a modern word for an old concept. If you're an alien then you're welcome in this country but its not your country and you don't get to vote.
If you have lived in a country for 30 years, have raised a family in it, pay taxes in it and own your only home in it, why is it not your country? Where does it state this in the Charter?
And you do get to vote in the UK if you are the citizen of some foreign countries.
It states this in Article 15.
If you have lived in a country for 30 years, have raised a family in it, pay taxes in it then you have a right to make it your country. As per Article 15 of the Charter.
If you have not chosen to make it your country, then it is not your country. By your own choice.
Nope, that is not what it says. The fact that you and I arguing about it demonstrates that it is entirely unclear. The word citizenship is not mentioned. It could have been, but it isn't. The term was omitted, not chosen, not used. There was a reason for that; the authors of the Charter did not want to use it.
No it is what it says. You are arguing but you are wrong, it is crystal clear. Nationality is addressed in the charter and it says anyone can vote in his country, not other countries.
Can you name a single country anywhere in the entire world that lets everyone resident in the country vote in that country? Rather than just nationals of the country? Unless every single country in the entire world is violating the Charter, you are quite simply mistaken.
If something is fundamental it cannot be conditional.
There aren't any conditions. All free adult citizens have the same rights.
Possession of citizenship - which is not mentioned in the UN Charter - creates a condition. An interesting corollary to this is that people born in Northern Ireland do have the right to Irish citizenship and so could, in theory, vote in EU elections if they so wished.
And, from changes in Irish law due to come into force in October, Irish passport holders resident in the UK will be able to vote in Dail and Ireland European Parliament elections.
Problem solved!!
How do NI citizens who weren't born there vote?
There is no such thing as Northern Irish citizenship.
Indeed but there is UK citizenship and NI is part of the UK.
Lets say a doctor moves from India to Northern Ireland, sets up a home there and acquires local citizenship. How do they vote in European Parliamentary elections? How do they vote and get their vote counted in the European Council?
Until 2005 everyone born in Northern Ireland had dual UK/Irish citizenship. That changed and now people born in the North have only UK citizenship. However, since their parents and grandparents where likely born "... on the ISLAND of Ireland..." then those born after 2004 are Irish citizens by descent rather than by birth.
So not only do naturalised immigrants not get citizenship, but apparently those born there who are the children of naturalised immigrants don't either?
If something is fundamental it cannot be conditional.
There aren't any conditions. All free adult citizens have the same rights.
Possession of citizenship - which is not mentioned in the UN Charter - creates a condition. An interesting corollary to this is that people born in Northern Ireland do have the right to Irish citizenship and so could, in theory, vote in EU elections if they so wished.
And, from changes in Irish law due to come into force in October, Irish passport holders resident in the UK will be able to vote in Dail and Ireland European Parliament elections.
Problem solved!!
How do NI citizens who weren't born there vote?
There is no such thing as Northern Irish citizenship.
Indeed but there is UK citizenship and NI is part of the UK.
Lets say a doctor moves from India to Northern Ireland, sets up a home there and acquires local citizenship. How do they vote in European Parliamentary elections? How do they vote and get their vote counted in the European Council?
Until 2005 everyone born in Northern Ireland had dual UK/Irish citizenship. That changed and now people born in the North have only UK citizenship. However, since their parents and grandparents where likely born "... on the ISLAND of Ireland..." then those born after 2004 are Irish citizens by descent rather than by birth.
That's not quite correct. Ireland still grants citizenship based on birth on the island of Ireland, the 2005 qualification was that at least one parent had to be already an Irish citizen or entitled to be so.
If it was clear it would say citizenship. It doesn't. There is no reason for it not to if citizenship was the intended standard. There is, of course, a big difference between being a subject and a citizen. The 1914 act did not create British citizenship.
It is clear. It literally says his country. Citizens of this country, formerly subjects of this country are quite clearly who this applies to. It has never applied to all aliens in this country.
Citizenship continues where subjects came beforehand, its a modern word for an old concept. If you're an alien then you're welcome in this country but its not your country and you don't get to vote.
If you have lived in a country for 30 years, have raised a family in it, pay taxes in it and own your only home in it, why is it not your country? Where does it state this in the Charter?
And you do get to vote in the UK if you are the citizen of some foreign countries.
It states this in Article 15.
If you have lived in a country for 30 years, have raised a family in it, pay taxes in it then you have a right to make it your country. As per Article 15 of the Charter.
If you have not chosen to make it your country, then it is not your country. By your own choice.
Nope, that is not what it says. The fact that you and I arguing about it demonstrates that it is entirely unclear. The word citizenship is not mentioned. It could have been, but it isn't. The term was omitted, not chosen, not used. There was a reason for that; the authors of the Charter did not want to use it.
No it is what it says. You are arguing but you are wrong, it is crystal clear. Nationality is addressed in the charter and it says anyone can vote in his country, not other countries.
Can you name a single country anywhere in the entire world that lets everyone resident in the country vote in that country? Rather than just nationals of the country? Unless every single country in the entire world is violating the Charter, you are quite simply mistaken.
That countries have chosen to interpret the Charter in different ways is entirely the point. In the UK, British citizens, Irish citizens and Commonwealth citizens can vote in national elections. In Spain and France, EU citizens can vote in local elections but not national ones. In the US, citizens are not automatically entitled to the vote in all circumstances and so on. In this way, the right to vote is conditional. Certain, nationally-defined, criteria have to be met.
The whole RBL interview was very illuminating, even now there is no certainty what line the Labour Party would take in an election. What the fuck is going on with neither HMG or the opposition doing anything in the national interest but would rather play party political games
That countries have chosen to interpret the Charter in different ways is entirely the point. In the UK, British citizens, Irish citizens and Commonwealth citizens can vote in national elections. In Spain and France, EU citizens can vote in local elections but not national ones. In the US, citizens are not automatically entitled to the vote in all circumstances and so on. In this way, the right to vote is conditional. Certain, nationally-defined, criteria have to be met.
All named countries have all lawful adult citizens vote in national elections. No exceptions.
The US sees felons lose their right in some states which is a harsher variant of our inmates lose their rights, but the right to vote for lawful citizens is universal. Spain and France, like us, have extended the right to EU citizens for local elections but that doesn't change the Charter. The Charter is the minimum that must be met, not the maximum.
Now in the backstop those in NI [and UK while it applies to the whole of the UK] lose their right to vote in European Parliament election but are still subject to the European Parliament laws. That is undemocratic and no peddling nonsense about babies or people of other countries changes that.
If something is fundamental it cannot be conditional.
There aren't any conditions. All free adult citizens have the same rights.
Possession of citizenship - which is not mentioned in the UN Charter - creates a condition. An interesting corollary to this is that people born in Northern Ireland do have the right to Irish citizenship and so could, in theory, vote in EU elections if they so wished.
And, from changes in Irish law due to come into force in October, Irish passport holders resident in the UK will be able to vote in Dail and Ireland European Parliament elections.
Problem solved!!
How do NI citizens who weren't born there vote?
There is no such thing as Northern Irish citizenship.
Indeed but there is UK citizenship and NI is part of the UK.
Lets say a doctor moves from India to Northern Ireland, sets up a home there and acquires local citizenship. How do they vote in European Parliamentary elections? How do they vote and get their vote counted in the European Council?
Until 2005 everyone born in Northern Ireland had dual UK/Irish citizenship. That changed and now people born in the North have only UK citizenship. However, since their parents and grandparents where likely born "... on the ISLAND of Ireland..." then those born after 2004 are Irish citizens by descent rather than by birth.
So not only do naturalised immigrants not get citizenship, but apparently those born there who are the children of naturalised immigrants don't either?
No. I am talking about citizen by birth. Naturalised citizens are, of course citizens. The clue is in the phrase "Naturalised citizens"
If something is fundamental it cannot be conditional.
There aren't any conditions. All free adult citizens have the same rights.
Possession of citizenship - which is not mentioned in the UN Charter - creates a condition. An interesting corollary to this is that people born in Northern Ireland do have the right to Irish citizenship and so could, in theory, vote in EU elections if they so wished.
And, from changes in Irish law due to come into force in October, Irish passport holders resident in the UK will be able to vote in Dail and Ireland European Parliament elections.
Problem solved!!
How do NI citizens who weren't born there vote?
There is no such thing as Northern Irish citizenship.
Indeed but there is UK citizenship and NI is part of the UK.
Lets say a doctor moves from India to Northern Ireland, sets up a home there and acquires local citizenship. How do they vote in European Parliamentary elections? How do they vote and get their vote counted in the European Council?
Until 2005 everyone born in Northern Ireland had dual UK/Irish citizenship. That changed and now people born in the North have only UK citizenship. However, since their parents and grandparents where likely born "... on the ISLAND of Ireland..." then those born after 2004 are Irish citizens by descent rather than by birth.
That's not quite correct. Ireland still grants citizenship based on birth on the island of Ireland, the 2005 qualification was that at least one parent had to be already an Irish citizen or entitled to be so.
The whole RBL interview was very illuminating, even now there is no certainty what line the Labour Party would take in an election. What the fuck is going on with neither HMG or the opposition doing anything in the national interest but would rather play party political games
It is of course possible they have a different idea of where the national interest lies and how best to get there.
The whole RBL interview was very illuminating, even now there is no certainty what line the Labour Party would take in an election. What the fuck is going on with neither HMG or the opposition doing anything in the national interest but would rather play party political games
Labour's view isn't all that difficult. They want a WA but not the one May negotiated because presumably it doesn't do the socialist things they want in terms of workers' protection, giving everyone 150 days annual leave and working a 10 hour week.
That doesn't mean they want No Deal because they see Boris trying to make the post-EU UK akin to Singapore-on-Thames where the world's billionaires can reside in tax free luxury with a army of lowly-paid British workers to park their cars, walk their dogs and pour their coffee and grovel in front of them.
Labour rejects that vision (rightly) but its vision is of the masses discussing revolutionary policy on a daily basis as the rubbish piles up because no one is working and getting paid and the lights are flickering and fading in Caracas-on-Thames.
Oddly enough, I reject both visions as most sensible people would. Labour wants a Deal but not the current WA but as the EU wouldn't re-open negotiations even if Corbyn became Prime Minister (I suppose he would drop the Backstop as Ireland unites so he might get somewhere), the Labour position is no less nonsensical than either a) crashing out without a WA or b) revoking the whole thing and ignoring the democratic will of the people.
So, I make it three ludicrous policy positions so pick the best (or should that be least worst).
If something is fundamental it cannot be conditional.
There aren't any conditions. All free adult citizens have the same rights.
Possession of citizenship - which is not mentioned in the UN Charter - creates a condition. An interesting corollary to this is that people born in Northern Ireland do have the right to Irish citizenship and so could, in theory, vote in EU elections if they so wished.
And, from changes in Irish law due to come into force in October, Irish passport holders resident in the UK will be able to vote in Dail and Ireland European Parliament elections.
Problem solved!!
How do NI citizens who weren't born there vote?
There is no such thing as Northern Irish citizenship.
Indeed but there is UK citizenship and NI is part of the UK.
Lets say a doctor moves from India to Northern Ireland, sets up a home there and acquires local citizenship. How do they vote in European Parliamentary elections? How do they vote and get their vote counted in the European Council?
Until 2005 everyone born in Northern Ireland had dual UK/Irish citizenship. That changed and now people born in the North have only UK citizenship. However, since their parents and grandparents where likely born "... on the ISLAND of Ireland..." then those born after 2004 are Irish citizens by descent rather than by birth.
So not only do naturalised immigrants not get citizenship, but apparently those born there who are the children of naturalised immigrants don't either?
No. I am talking about citizen by birth. Naturalised citizens are, of course citizens. The clue is in the phrase "Naturalised citizens"
What is this English Parliament of which he speaks?
The one we'll have by default in a few years time after the other 3 nations have gone their own way.
Wales was a part of the Kingdom of England for centuries before Scotland and Ireland joined the Union and sent MPs to the same Westminster Parliament, Wales also voted Leave like England even if Remain voting Scotland went independent and Remain voting Northern Ireland voted to join an enlarged Republic of Ireland
That countries have chosen to interpret the Charter in different ways is entirely the point. In the UK, British citizens, Irish citizens and Commonwealth citizens can vote in national elections. In Spain and France, EU citizens can vote in local elections but not national ones. In the US, citizens are not automatically entitled to the vote in all circumstances and so on. In this way, the right to vote is conditional. Certain, nationally-defined, criteria have to be met.
All named countries have all lawful adult citizens vote in national elections. No exceptions.
The US sees felons lose their right in some states which is a harsher variant of our inmates lose their rights, but the right to vote for lawful citizens is universal. Spain and France, like us, have extended the right to EU citizens for local elections but that doesn't change the Charter. The Charter is the minimum that must be met, not the maximum.
Now in the backstop those in NI [and UK while it applies to the whole of the UK] lose their right to vote in European Parliament election but are still subject to the European Parliament laws. That is undemocratic and no peddling nonsense about babies or people of other countries changes that.
None of which changes the fact that the right to vote is conditional in every country where there is a right to vote - or that the conditions vary from country to country. Fundamental rights are not conditional. And so the wheel turns.
Genuine question! Can you tell who is trading on the currency markets? For example would we know at the time that BOE were buying pounds to support the rate or speculators were trying to drive it in a direction for their own benefit?
What is this English Parliament of which he speaks?
The one we'll have by default in a few years time after the other 3 nations have gone their own way.
Wales was a part of the Kingdom of England for centuries before Scotland and Ireland joined the Union and sent MPs to the same Westminster Parliament, Wales also voted Leave like England even if Remain voting Scotland went independent and Remain voting Northern Ireland voted to join an enlarged Republic of Ireland
It might take a few years longer, but I can't see Wales hanging around once Scotland and NI have left the UK. A PC First Minister making a success of the job will be a first step.
If something is fundamental it cannot be conditional.
There aren't any conditions. All free adult citizens have the same rights.
Possession of citizenship - which is not mentioned in the UN Charter - creates a condition. An interesting corollary to this is that people born in Northern Ireland do have the right to Irish citizenship and so could, in theory, vote in EU elections if they so wished.
And, from changes in Irish law due to come into force in October, Irish passport holders resident in the UK will be able to vote in Dail and Ireland European Parliament elections.
Problem solved!!
How do NI citizens who weren't born there vote?
There is no such thing as Northern Irish citizenship.
Indeed but there is UK citizenship and NI is part of the UK.
Lets say a doctor moves from India to Northern Ireland, sets up a home there and acquires local citizenship. How do they vote in European Parliamentary elections? How do they vote and get their vote counted in the European Council?
Until 2005 everyone born in Northern Ireland had dual UK/Irish citizenship. That changed and now people born in the North have only UK citizenship. However, since their parents and grandparents where likely born "... on the ISLAND of Ireland..." then those born after 2004 are Irish citizens by descent rather than by birth.
So not only do naturalised immigrants not get citizenship, but apparently those born there who are the children of naturalised immigrants don't either?
No. I am talking about citizen by birth. Naturalised citizens are, of course citizens. The clue is in the phrase "Naturalised citizens"
What is this English Parliament of which he speaks?
The one we'll have by default in a few years time after the other 3 nations have gone their own way.
Wales was a part of the Kingdom of England for centuries before Scotland and Ireland joined the Union and sent MPs to the same Westminster Parliament, Wales also voted Leave like England even if Remain voting Scotland went independent and Remain voting Northern Ireland voted to join an enlarged Republic of Ireland
It might take a few years longer, but I can't see Wales hanging around once Scotland and NI have left the UK. A PC First Minister making a success of the job will be a first step.
PC will only get into office with Tory support on the latest Welsh Assembly poll and then with less than a quarter of the Welsh vote
What is this English Parliament of which he speaks?
The one we'll have by default in a few years time after the other 3 nations have gone their own way.
Wales was a part of the Kingdom of England for centuries before Scotland and Ireland joined the Union and sent MPs to the same Westminster Parliament, Wales also voted Leave like England even if Remain voting Scotland went independent and Remain voting Northern Ireland voted to join an enlarged Republic of Ireland
It might take a few years longer, but I can't see Wales hanging around once Scotland and NI have left the UK. A PC First Minister making a success of the job will be a first step.
PC will only get into office with Tory support on the latest Welsh Assembly poll and then with less than a quarter of the Welsh vote
Though of course an English only Parliament would be much more Tory dominated, the Tories won a majority of 60 in England at the 2017 general election despite it being a hung parliament UK wide
I think this guy is a Brexiter plant. Just like Katie Hopkins is some sort of left lib plant. Perhaps every obnoxious turd on Twitter is doing it to make the other side (their actual side) look good.
Comments
*Sees the same arguments about Brexit being run for the nth time +1*
*tiptoes back out again in disappointment.*
Can you name a single country anywhere in the entire world that lets everyone resident in the country vote in that country? Rather than just nationals of the country? Unless every single country in the entire world is violating the Charter, you are quite simply mistaken.
The US sees felons lose their right in some states which is a harsher variant of our inmates lose their rights, but the right to vote for lawful citizens is universal. Spain and France, like us, have extended the right to EU citizens for local elections but that doesn't change the Charter. The Charter is the minimum that must be met, not the maximum.
Now in the backstop those in NI [and UK while it applies to the whole of the UK] lose their right to vote in European Parliament election but are still subject to the European Parliament laws. That is undemocratic and no peddling nonsense about babies or people of other countries changes that.
https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1158802889143476224
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html
That doesn't mean they want No Deal because they see Boris trying to make the post-EU UK akin to Singapore-on-Thames where the world's billionaires can reside in tax free luxury with a army of lowly-paid British workers to park their cars, walk their dogs and pour their coffee and grovel in front of them.
Labour rejects that vision (rightly) but its vision is of the masses discussing revolutionary policy on a daily basis as the rubbish piles up because no one is working and getting paid and the lights are flickering and fading in Caracas-on-Thames.
Oddly enough, I reject both visions as most sensible people would. Labour wants a Deal but not the current WA but as the EU wouldn't re-open negotiations even if Corbyn became Prime Minister (I suppose he would drop the Backstop as Ireland unites so he might get somewhere), the Labour position is no less nonsensical than either a) crashing out without a WA or b) revoking the whole thing and ignoring the democratic will of the people.
So, I make it three ludicrous policy positions so pick the best (or should that be least worst).
Then the sharks introduced dark pools.
NEW THREAD
Too late
But the Irish didn't treat many fellow Irishmen and women particularly well either
The same people coming up with this GNU wank are those who spent weeks dreaming that Boris wouldn't ACTUALLY make it to be PM.