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  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Boris is starting to upset the right people......

    https://twitter.com/JamesDelingpole/status/1158306141950136320?s=20

    What is Delingpole's evidence for this? Granted Schapps is pro-HS2, so that could be a sign.
    He has ordered a review into HS2 chaired by - the former chairman of HS2.

    But TBH too much has already been done for it to be cancelled now.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    edited August 2019

    malcolmg said:

    Mr. Observer, doesn't the law make holding a referendum a Westminster rather than Holyrood power, though? So the SNP can ask for one, but it's up to the UK Parliament to agree or not?

    Of course - but there is no reason to refuse one if the Scottish government requests it. That does not apply in most other countries, where national unity is written into the constitution or there is a prescribed way to secure independence.
    There is a reason, which is that the last one took place in the widely-accepted context that it was a once-in-a-generation vote.

    There is no reason, except for a primitive mistaking of majoritarianism for democracy (albeit all the rage with Brexit), to grant another referendum just because a majority of Scottish MAs want one, or because polling suggests a narrow majority might favour it this week.

    Yep, I get that, though there is an equally strong argument for saying that No won on the false prospectus of Scotland having a powerful voice inside the Union. Brexit has blown that out of the water. The Scots now know unequivocally that when push comes to shove they have to do as the English want.

    That is such bollocks. We still have Scottish MPs voting on English laws, we don't have English MPs voting on Scottish laws.
    How many English MPs voted through the 2016 Scotland Act, and how many amendments by Scottish MPs were knocked back?
    And in how many votes in Parliament in the last 20 years that affected England only have the votes of Scottish MPs made a difference?
    From SNP it would be ZERO , not so sure on unionist ( ie NON Scottish Party ) Labour though
    I think the SNP's vote of no confidence in the Labour Government in 1979 had quite an effect on England as it made Margaret Thatcher PM for 11 years.
    A VoNC in the UK govenment is obviously a UK-wide matter so not relevant. I asked for examples where the votes of Scottish MPs had impacted a vote that was specific to England only. There must be lots given how upset it makes some people on here.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    Either you have developed a taste for absurdist satire, or you've gone slightly nuts.
    It's slightly odd that I, an opponent of the Union, would still find it impossible to think that HMG would go down that route, while HYUFD, a passionate supporter of the Union, thinks this would be a viable outcome.
    In the Scottish Tory leadership hustings Jeremy Hunt made quite clear he would block any indyref2 request from Sturgeon and Boris made clear the 2014 referendum decision to stay in the UK must still be respected
    Both Hunt and Boris said they would block indyref2, Hunt said he would block it even if the SNP won a majority in Holyrood in 2021
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/tory-rivals-show-scots-contempt-claims-snp-f5fj9bcfg
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    HYUFD said:

    There seems to be an assumption that Wales will always stay with England.

    Plaid Cymru currently top Assembly polling.
    Just as Northern Irish politics “de-unionised” in the 2000s with the rise of DUP/Sinn Féin and the decline of UUP/SDLP, and Scotland did in the 2010s with the collapse of Scottish Labour, it is entirely feasible for Wales to follow in the 2020s.

    Once local politics is unaffiliated to national parties and dominated by nationalists, independence is on the horizon.

    Plaid are on less than 25% of the vote and would need Tory support in the Assembly to govern.

    Wales also voted Leave
    The SNP only got 20% of the vote in Scotland at the 2010 GE, and look at them now.
    When it comes to Wales, just ignore him. Although why I added the first five words I don't now.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Nathan Lyon to take all eight remaining wickets.

    Given the Aussies have no sandpaper.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    Mr. G, power has recently decentralised in the UK, contrary to the EU approach.

    Miss JGP, good afternoon.

    It is all reserved MD as we saw recently when Westminster grabbed back most of it , that old chestnut does not cut the mustard. Power devolved is power retained.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited August 2019

    HYUFD said:

    There seems to be an assumption that Wales will always stay with England.

    Plaid Cymru currently top Assembly polling.
    Just as Northern Irish politics “de-unionised” in the 2000s with the rise of DUP/Sinn Féin and the decline of UUP/SDLP, and Scotland did in the 2010s with the collapse of Scottish Labour, it is entirely feasible for Wales to follow in the 2020s.

    Once local politics is unaffiliated to national parties and dominated by nationalists, independence is on the horizon.

    Plaid are on less than 25% of the vote and would need Tory support in the Assembly to govern.

    Wales also voted Leave
    The SNP only got 20% of the vote in Scotland at the 2010 GE, and look at them now.
    At the last general election Plaid got just 10% in Wales never mind 20%
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    HYUFD said:

    sarissa said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    52% 48% is not much gap really in terms of poll lead and including Don't Knows there is no majority for independence at all.

    It shows even with No Deal Brexit there is no guarantee Scots would back independence
    the poll excludes the 16-17 year old age group, who were allowed to vote last time.
    But in the unlikely event the British government agrees to indyref2 anytime soon they would likely require the franchise to be the same as EUref and general elections ie 18 and over only
    Oh Dear , they will not be setting the rules
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    On this whole English / British / etc. thing:

    I was born in England and always lived in England. I select "English" on the census form.

    However, as someone from the north-east I feel I have more commonality with Scots than with southerners. Draw a border further south, and I'd happily self-identify as 'North British' or whatever it might be called. (Pieland?)

    Second however, on my mother's side I am of Irish descent; I've never been to Ireland and in no way feel Irish - its only impact on me was a Catholic upbringing. Contrast this to Americans whose ancestors left Ireland 200 years ago and still consider themselves to be Irish.

    I guess I'm trying to say that for each of us Identity is a personal thing, and cannot be imposed.

    The parts of my childhood that weren't spent in Scotland were spent in the North East of England, and it's certainly true that there are big cultural similarities between the two, although I would say that in my experience the Scots are perhaps a little more open minded.
    Weirdly I never experience culture shock in London but I find the villages and towns of the Home Counties deeply alien places.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    ydoethur said:

    Boris is starting to upset the right people......

    https://twitter.com/JamesDelingpole/status/1158306141950136320?s=20

    What is Delingpole's evidence for this? Granted Schapps is pro-HS2, so that could be a sign.
    He has ordered a review into HS2 chaired by - the former chairman of HS2.

    But TBH too much has already been done for it to be cancelled now.
    It will never reach Leeds and Manchester though, will it?

    Not that I think it needs to. 2 hours Leeds to KX is plenty quick enough and doable on the existing tracks. A faster journey to Nottingham would be nice, but dumping passengers in Toton rather than the city centre negates any time saving from a faster train.

    30 minutes Leeds to Manchester is what we really need in these parts.

    (PBers in Sheffield may have a different opinion on trans-pennine priorities!)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    Scott_P said:

    malcolmg said:

    From SNP it would be ZERO

    That's bollocks though. Why do you keep posting this pish?
    Did you struggle to find a tweet to use as a reply, truth hurts sunshine
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    ydoethur said:

    Boris is starting to upset the right people......

    https://twitter.com/JamesDelingpole/status/1158306141950136320?s=20

    What is Delingpole's evidence for this? Granted Schapps is pro-HS2, so that could be a sign.
    He has ordered a review into HS2 chaired by - the former chairman of HS2.

    But TBH too much has already been done for it to be cancelled now.
    It will never reach Leeds and Manchester though, will it?

    Not that I think it needs to. 2 hours Leeds to KX is plenty quick enough and doable on the existing tracks. A faster journey to Nottingham would be nice, but dumping passengers in Toton rather than the city centre negates any time saving from a faster train.

    30 minutes Leeds to Manchester is what we really need in these parts.

    (PBers in Sheffield may have a different opinion on trans-pennine priorities!)
    There will be a tram from Toton into Nottm town. That will add 20-odd minutes I guess.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    On this whole English / British / etc. thing:

    I was born in England and always lived in England. I select "English" on the census form.

    However, as someone from the north-east I feel I have more commonality with Scots than with southerners. Draw a border further south, and I'd happily self-identify as 'North British' or whatever it might be called. (Pieland?)

    Second however, on my mother's side I am of Irish descent; I've never been to Ireland and in no way feel Irish - its only impact on me was a Catholic upbringing. Contrast this to Americans whose ancestors left Ireland 200 years ago and still consider themselves to be Irish.

    I guess I'm trying to say that for each of us Identity is a personal thing, and cannot be imposed.

    The parts of my childhood that weren't spent in Scotland were spent in the North East of England, and it's certainly true that there are big cultural similarities between the two, although I would say that in my experience the Scots are perhaps a little more open minded.
    Weirdly I never experience culture shock in London but I find the villages and towns of the Home Counties deeply alien places.
    I remember the Goodness Gracious Me sketch: "To experience the REAL England you have to visit the villages - there are people there who have never seen a brown face."
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    ydoethur said:

    Draw a border further south, and I'd happily self-identify as 'North British' or whatever it might be called. (Pieland?)

    Not pies, surely? Deep fried Mars Bars.
    Tut Tut Ydoethur, I have never in my life seen a place that sells deep fried Mars Bars or spoken to anyone who has eaten one. Poor poor stereotype. Now a nice pie is a different matter altogether.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    Britain - with various allies - was quite good at impeding further federalising initiatives.

    You have to be in the club to decide on the direction the club is heading in, not standing on the sidelines soiling yourself.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,534

    Scott_P said:
    MPs need to vote FOR something if they want to effect change - for example, a different government. Simply saying "we don't like it" is not sufficient.
    Correct. I suspect it'll come down to "No Deal or (temporarily) Corbyn" - other solutions simply don't work.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Mr. G, power has recently decentralised in the UK, contrary to the EU approach.

    Miss JGP, good afternoon.

    Barely!
    In practice the EU is much more decentralised. Remember those pesky Walloons?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    ydoethur said:

    Boris is starting to upset the right people......

    https://twitter.com/JamesDelingpole/status/1158306141950136320?s=20

    What is Delingpole's evidence for this? Granted Schapps is pro-HS2, so that could be a sign.
    He has ordered a review into HS2 chaired by - the former chairman of HS2.

    But TBH too much has already been done for it to be cancelled now.
    Hope so.

    I read the other day that there were signs that people travelling in Europe are switching to trains rather than fly, because of the carbon issue. So we need to upgrade our infrastructure. Ideally HS2 would have gone into St.Pancras with direct Birmingham to Brussels services etc.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    Re: Brits. I am glad to not be alone.

    One argument for the Union is that it allows for these multi-national identities. At its best, the U.K. is an anti-nationalist endeavour (hence our traditional cringe against overt flag-waving etc).

    To be British carries no ethnic imperative (so far as I can tell). Those who have left the Commonwealth to make their home here are surely more British than, say, English.

    In a globalising world, that seems like a precious inheritance.

    This conception of Britishness fatally undermines the way that it was previously conflated with Englishness in England, and is behind the reassertion of English identity that you are so uncomfortable with.

    Instead of trying to cling on to Britishness in a reactionary way, progressives should think about how to create an English civic nationalism and an inclusive form of English identity.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    malcolmg said:

    Mr. Observer, doesn't the law make holding a referendum a Westminster rather than Holyrood power, though? So the SNP can ask for one, but it's up to the UK Parliament to agree or not?

    Of course - but there is no reason to refuse one if the Scottish government requests it. That does not apply in most other countries, where national unity is written into the constitution or there is a prescribed way to secure independence.
    There is a reason, which is that the last one took place in the widely-accepted context that it was a once-in-a-generation vote.

    There is no reason, except for a primitive mistaking of majoritarianism for democracy (albeit all the rage with Brexit), to grant another referendum just because a majority of Scottish MAs want one, or because polling suggests a narrow majority might favour it this week.

    Yep, I get that, though there is an equally strong argument for saying that No won on the false prospectus of Scotland having a powerful voice inside the Union. Brexit has blown that out of the water. The Scots now know unequivocally that when push comes to shove they have to do as the English want.

    That is such bollocks. We still have Scottish MPs voting on English laws, we don't have English MPs voting on Scottish laws.
    How many English MPs voted through the 2016 Scotland Act, and how many amendments by Scottish MPs were knocked back?
    And in how many votes in Parliament in the last 20 years that affected England only have the votes of Scottish MPs made a difference?
    From SNP it would be ZERO , not so sure on unionist ( ie NON Scottish Party ) Labour though
    I think the SNP's vote of no confidence in the Labour Government in 1979 had quite an effect on England as it made Margaret Thatcher PM for 11 years.
    A VoNC in the UK govenment is obviously a UK-wide matter so not relevant. I asked for examples where the votes of Scottish MPs had impacted a vote that was specific to England only. There must be lots given how upset it makes some people on here.
    Methinks you will have a long wait , apart from stuff like the squirrel above
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Scott_P said:
    From £350mn a week...to this bin fire.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Draw a border further south, and I'd happily self-identify as 'North British' or whatever it might be called. (Pieland?)

    Not pies, surely? Deep fried Mars Bars.
    Tut Tut Ydoethur, I have never in my life seen a place that sells deep fried Mars Bars or spoken to anyone who has eaten one. Poor poor stereotype. Now a nice pie is a different matter altogether.
    I've had a deep fried Mars bar. Not especially recommended.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Draw a border further south, and I'd happily self-identify as 'North British' or whatever it might be called. (Pieland?)

    Not pies, surely? Deep fried Mars Bars.
    Tut Tut Ydoethur, I have never in my life seen a place that sells deep fried Mars Bars or spoken to anyone who has eaten one. Poor poor stereotype. Now a nice pie is a different matter altogether.
    As long as it's made of seaweed (speaking as a Welshman).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    Boris is starting to upset the right people......

    https://twitter.com/JamesDelingpole/status/1158306141950136320?s=20

    What is Delingpole's evidence for this? Granted Schapps is pro-HS2, so that could be a sign.
    He has ordered a review into HS2 chaired by - the former chairman of HS2.

    But TBH too much has already been done for it to be cancelled now.
    It will never reach Leeds and Manchester though, will it?

    Not that I think it needs to. 2 hours Leeds to KX is plenty quick enough and doable on the existing tracks. A faster journey to Nottingham would be nice, but dumping passengers in Toton rather than the city centre negates any time saving from a faster train.

    30 minutes Leeds to Manchester is what we really need in these parts.

    (PBers in Sheffield may have a different opinion on trans-pennine priorities!)
    I'm pretty confident it will reach Manchester. Leeds I'm less sure of.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    Scott_P said:
    Is boosterism a contraction of Bertie Woosterism?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    Scott_P said:
    From £350mn a week...to this bin fire.
    I watched an interview with Cleverly last night and he was trumpeting on about it, never saw a shiftier lying toerag than him. He was evasive , stuttering and oozing lies, how did that chancer ever get where has, oops they are all of the same mould.
  • Scott_P said:
    Voting against it is meaningless under our current constitutional arrangement. To stop it they need to replace the Government. That is now their only option.
    If the government has been VonC'd then presumably the same MPs will be willing temporarily form a GoNU?
    You would assume so but I wouldn't bet on it. This Parliament has proved time and time again that they can vote against stuff but not for stuff.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Boris is starting to upset the right people......

    https://twitter.com/JamesDelingpole/status/1158306141950136320?s=20

    What is Delingpole's evidence for this? Granted Schapps is pro-HS2, so that could be a sign.
    He has ordered a review into HS2 chaired by - the former chairman of HS2.

    But TBH too much has already been done for it to be cancelled now.
    It will never reach Leeds and Manchester though, will it?

    Not that I think it needs to. 2 hours Leeds to KX is plenty quick enough and doable on the existing tracks. A faster journey to Nottingham would be nice, but dumping passengers in Toton rather than the city centre negates any time saving from a faster train.

    30 minutes Leeds to Manchester is what we really need in these parts.

    (PBers in Sheffield may have a different opinion on trans-pennine priorities!)
    I'm pretty confident it will reach Manchester. Leeds I'm less sure of.
    Leeds via Manchester has been suggested - essentially incorporating HS3 into HS2.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Apparently somebody has been editing Joel Wilson's Wikipedia page: 'Joel Wilson is a BLIND international cricket umpire from Trinidad and Tobago.'

    As he makes a TENTH howler.

    I think it's the eighth for him, ten for the umpires in total
    You're right, only 80% as crap as I thought.

    You do have to feel rather sorry for him, but he's clearly out of his depth here.
    luckily he's the TV third ump at the next game... what could go wrong there.
    Well, that's an easier job. All he's got to do is look at replays. I think he's struggling to react quickly enough to the speed and intensity of the game.
    Yeah, operating the technology is way easier than standing in the middle. In most cases the output from the screen is pretty conclusive, it’s only the occasional very low catch or boundary rope decision that the 3rd ump has to make.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    On this whole English / British / etc. thing:

    I was born in England and always lived in England. I select "English" on the census form.

    However, as someone from the north-east I feel I have more commonality with Scots than with southerners. Draw a border further south, and I'd happily self-identify as 'North British' or whatever it might be called. (Pieland?)

    Second however, on my mother's side I am of Irish descent; I've never been to Ireland and in no way feel Irish - its only impact on me was a Catholic upbringing. Contrast this to Americans whose ancestors left Ireland 200 years ago and still consider themselves to be Irish.

    I guess I'm trying to say that for each of us Identity is a personal thing, and cannot be imposed.

    The parts of my childhood that weren't spent in Scotland were spent in the North East of England, and it's certainly true that there are big cultural similarities between the two, although I would say that in my experience the Scots are perhaps a little more open minded.
    Weirdly I never experience culture shock in London but I find the villages and towns of the Home Counties deeply alien places.
    I remember the Goodness Gracious Me sketch: "To experience the REAL England you have to visit the villages - there are people there who have never seen a brown face."
    The rest of my family have brown faces, which certainly adds to the Deliverance style feelings when we visit Chipping Snobbury or wherever.
  • malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Draw a border further south, and I'd happily self-identify as 'North British' or whatever it might be called. (Pieland?)

    Not pies, surely? Deep fried Mars Bars.
    Tut Tut Ydoethur, I have never in my life seen a place that sells deep fried Mars Bars or spoken to anyone who has eaten one. Poor poor stereotype. Now a nice pie is a different matter altogether.
    Never been to Stonehaven then? The chippy there claims to be the place it was invented. There are also at least two chippies in Aberdeen that sell them.

    But yes it is a terrible stereotype based on a couple of strange examples.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Scott_P said:
    Why don't they just ask the Chancellor?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    sarissa said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    52% 48% is not much gap really in terms of poll lead and including Don't Knows there is no majority for independence at all.

    It shows even with No Deal Brexit there is no guarantee Scots would back independence
    the poll excludes the 16-17 year old age group, who were allowed to vote last time.
    But in the unlikely event the British government agrees to indyref2 anytime soon they would likely require the franchise to be the same as EUref and general elections ie 18 and over only
    Oh Dear , they will not be setting the rules
    It requires Holyrood and Westminster to agree them, as in 2014
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2019

    A VoNC in the UK govenment is obviously a UK-wide matter so not relevant. I asked for examples where the votes of Scottish MPs had impacted a vote that was specific to England only. There must be lots given how upset it makes some people on here.

    Sunday trading and Tuition Fees.

    A majority of English MPs backed liberalising Sunday trading laws in England, SNP MPs blocked it. Despite Scotland having liberalised Sunday Trading.

    Labour tripled English tuition fees when a majority of English MPs voted against it. Forced through by SLAB MPs despite Scottish students getting free tuition in Scotland.

    Two examples and both where Scottish MPs overrode English MPs hypocritically.

    How would you feel if English MPs voted that Scottish students studying in Scotland should suddenly not just pay fees but that English students studying in England shouldn't?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Scott_P said:
    Straight out of the Brown playbook.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Apparently somebody has been editing Joel Wilson's Wikipedia page: 'Joel Wilson is a BLIND international cricket umpire from Trinidad and Tobago.'

    As he makes a TENTH howler.

    I think it's the eighth for him, ten for the umpires in total
    You're right, only 80% as crap as I thought.

    You do have to feel rather sorry for him, but he's clearly out of his depth here.
    luckily he's the TV third ump at the next game... what could go wrong there.
    Well, that's an easier job. All he's got to do is look at replays. I think he's struggling to react quickly enough to the speed and intensity of the game.
    Yeah, operating the technology is way easier than standing in the middle. In most cases the output from the screen is pretty conclusive, it’s only the occasional very low catch or boundary rope decision that the 3rd ump has to make.
    It should be but there are also situations, the WC 2 + 4 overthrows and Stokes near backfoot wide yesterday (Where the correct decision was reached though a side on view should have been used to verify it) that the 3rd umpire needs to be on the ball with all the slightly more obscure rules.
    Also why did Denly review ? Do batsmen not know when they've knicked it ?! - when its the batsman vs DRS you aren't going to fool it.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,912
    Scott_P said:
    So if it is not new money and it is not exclusively for capital projects, that would mean that everything Matt Hancock said on the radio this morning is false.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    ydoethur said:

    Nathan Lyon to take all eight remaining wickets.

    Given the Aussies have no sandpaper.

    Didn't @AndyJS take some along to wave at them?
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019



    What is Delingpole's evidence for this? Granted Schapps is pro-HS2, so that could be a sign.

    What is Delingpole's evidence for anything? Other than privilege and prejudice.

    Not saying he's making an incorrect assumption in this specific case, though.

    But he is a nastly little turd.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nathan Lyon to take all eight remaining wickets.

    Given the Aussies have no sandpaper.

    Didn't @AndyJS take some along to wave at them?
    Apparently it's being confiscated on the gates.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Draw a border further south, and I'd happily self-identify as 'North British' or whatever it might be called. (Pieland?)

    Not pies, surely? Deep fried Mars Bars.
    Tut Tut Ydoethur, I have never in my life seen a place that sells deep fried Mars Bars or spoken to anyone who has eaten one. Poor poor stereotype. Now a nice pie is a different matter altogether.
    I've had a deep fried Mars bar. Not especially recommended.

    Bad enough on its own never mind frying it. Anyone suggesting it should be shot.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Joe Root can't even get to fifty this time.

    Where's that damn rain?
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    glw said:

    Scott_P said:
    So if it is not new money and it is not exclusively for capital projects, that would mean that everything Matt Hancock said on the radio this morning is false.
    Does any of this surprise anybody? The Conservatives need to get their act together, so that at least the government ministers can tell the same story. But this would require leadership, and the person they have just elected as their leader has no idea what leadership entails.

    Meanwhile, the country suffers from their irresponsibility.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    ydoethur said:

    Joe Root can't even get to fifty this time.

    Where's that damn rain?

    The LBW decision that wasn't given before, are we counting that as another umpiring error ?
    I said to myself this'll be umpire's call on the stumps - and it was ! To be honest I don't think it should be given when it hits that high.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    edited August 2019

    A VoNC in the UK govenment is obviously a UK-wide matter so not relevant. I asked for examples where the votes of Scottish MPs had impacted a vote that was specific to England only. There must be lots given how upset it makes some people on here.

    Sunday trading and Tuition Fees.

    A majority of English MPs backed liberalising Sunday trading laws in England, SNP MPs blocked it. Despite Scotland having liberalised Sunday Trading.

    Labour tripled English tuition fees when a majority of English MPs voted against it. Forced through by SLAB MPs despite Scottish students getting free tuition in Scotland.

    Two examples and both where Scottish MPs overrode English MPs hypocritically.

    How would you feel if English MPs voted that Scottish students studying in Scotland should suddenly not just pay fees but that English students studying in England shouldn't?
    So you did not read my reply.
    1. The SNP clearly stated that the bill to change Sunday trading laws affected Scotland and that if they did not fix that then they would have to vote to protect Scotish intersets, Westminster ignored them
    2. As I stated there is no Scottish Labour party, they have a regional office of the UK unionist Labour party there and they vote as told by their London masters.
    3. PS: they voted against free tuition in Scotland and are a bunch of useless barstewards.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    Scott_P said:
    Johnson wasn't being sinister. He simply does not do detail unlike May who knew every sentence.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    ydoethur said:

    Joe Root can't even get to fifty this time.

    Where's that damn rain?

    50% chance at 17:00 according to MET Office.
  • Animal_pbAnimal_pb Posts: 608
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Draw a border further south, and I'd happily self-identify as 'North British' or whatever it might be called. (Pieland?)

    Not pies, surely? Deep fried Mars Bars.
    Tut Tut Ydoethur, I have never in my life seen a place that sells deep fried Mars Bars or spoken to anyone who has eaten one. Poor poor stereotype. Now a nice pie is a different matter altogether.
    I've had a deep fried Mars bar. Not especially recommended.

    Bad enough on its own never mind frying it. Anyone suggesting it should be shot.
    To be honest, it's the deep fried haggis I miss most. The only place you find that south of the border is in irritating posh canape-sized snacks at corporate do's.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nathan Lyon to take all eight remaining wickets.

    Given the Aussies have no sandpaper.

    Didn't @AndyJS take some along to wave at them?
    Apparently it's being confiscated on the gates.
    Pah, they should be handing it out! The sight of 20,000 England fans waving sandpaper at the cheating convicts is well worth the chance that a single square inch of the stuff ends up in a player’s hands.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Draw a border further south, and I'd happily self-identify as 'North British' or whatever it might be called. (Pieland?)

    Not pies, surely? Deep fried Mars Bars.
    Tut Tut Ydoethur, I have never in my life seen a place that sells deep fried Mars Bars or spoken to anyone who has eaten one. Poor poor stereotype. Now a nice pie is a different matter altogether.
    I've had a deep fried Mars bar. Not especially recommended.

    Bad enough on its own never mind frying it. Anyone suggesting it should be shot.
    Perhaps pineapple would help
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Scott_P said:
    Johnson wasn't being sinister. He simply does not do detail unlike May who knew every sentence.
    And Matt Hancock? Doesn't he do detail either?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    Cammo won us exemption, remember?
  • Scott_P said:
    What are the odds of a thermonuclear war? How much do we spend on Trident?
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    So the Ashes are lost, the Union is finished, Brexit’s a disaster, the new government is bad as the old, and the £ is worth 5 cents.

    It is all quite depressing, isn’t it? Or maybe it is just me.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    edited August 2019

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    As a unionist you'll come to appreciate ever closer union once it's the thing that binds England and (a united) Ireland.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Including Don't Knows Ashcroft poll has Yes only on 46%, the Scottish borders and rural Scotland still heavily No.

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1158319227092254720?s=20

    In Quebec's 2nd referendum on independence from Canada in 1995 Yes led most final polls but No won 51% to 49% as Don't Knows went No
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    malcolmg said:

    A VoNC in the UK govenment is obviously a UK-wide matter so not relevant. I asked for examples where the votes of Scottish MPs had impacted a vote that was specific to England only. There must be lots given how upset it makes some people on here.

    Sunday trading and Tuition Fees.

    A majority of English MPs backed liberalising Sunday trading laws in England, SNP MPs blocked it. Despite Scotland having liberalised Sunday Trading.

    Labour tripled English tuition fees when a majority of English MPs voted against it. Forced through by SLAB MPs despite Scottish students getting free tuition in Scotland.

    Two examples and both where Scottish MPs overrode English MPs hypocritically.

    How would you feel if English MPs voted that Scottish students studying in Scotland should suddenly not just pay fees but that English students studying in England shouldn't?
    So you did not read my reply.
    1. The SNP clearly stated that the bill to change Sunday trading laws affected Scotland and that if they did not fix that then they would have to vote to protect Scotish intersets, Westminster ignored them
    2. As I stated there is no Scottish Labour party, they have a regional office of the UK unionist Labour party there and they vote as told by their London masters.
    3. PS: they voted against free tuition in Scotland and are a bunch of useless barstewards.
    Here you go, Malc. SNP a bunch of lying, hypocritical, duplicitous fuckers.

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33520547
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    The heroic leader of the people tells the rain to stop falling at Whaley Bridge.

    https://twitter.com/JournoLou/status/1158332229598220289
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    edited August 2019

    Slightly surprised that we’re on page 4 of comments and no one has yet mentioned Sarah Wollaston (unless I’ve missed it), who is supposedly the classic case of this issue.

    Personally I think the local Lib Dems would be mad to refuse her, but as @NickPalmer alludes, personal ambition is powerful stuff.

    The LD candidate there has fought three GEs running, and is aiming for a fourth. He’s leader of the council group and probably regards the seat as a good prospect, as it used to be pre-coalition. The power to authorise use of the party name and logo sits with the local party, and it doesn’t take a genius to surmise that he is reluctant to make way for his former opponent. Especially as TIG doesnt have a brand, and if both Wollaston and the LDs oppose the Tories, he could easily come through the middle, depending on where her personal vote comes from.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    sarissa said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    52% 48% is not much gap really in terms of poll lead and including Don't Knows there is no majority for independence at all.

    It shows even with No Deal Brexit there is no guarantee Scots would back independence
    the poll excludes the 16-17 year old age group, who were allowed to vote last time.
    But in the unlikely event the British government agrees to indyref2 anytime soon they would likely require the franchise to be the same as EUref and general elections ie 18 and over only
    Oh Dear , they will not be setting the rules
    It requires Holyrood and Westminster to agree them, as in 2014
    Indeed. And also the use of the wording on the ballot paper would also be contentious if couched in terms of "independence", assuming that the UK will have achieved independence from the EU on 31st October 2019 and a vote other than for the status quo would enable the Scottish Government to seek to reverse that independence.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Byronic said:

    So the Ashes are lost, the Union is finished, Brexit’s a disaster, the new government is bad as the old, and the £ is worth 5 cents.

    It is all quite depressing, isn’t it? Or maybe it is just me.

    We won the World Cup and only the first test
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    Scott_P said:
    What are the odds of a thermonuclear war? How much do we spend on Trident?
    We spend it to show everyone we have a willy. So does France. All other countries spend it on their people. We have Trident but no ships to go to the Gulf to protect our ships !
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    Britain - with various allies - was quite good at impeding further federalising initiatives.

    You have to be in the club to decide on the direction the club is heading in, not standing on the sidelines soiling yourself.
    oh yeah "influence"

    chortle
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    edited August 2019

    Scott_P said:
    What are the odds of a thermonuclear war? How much do we spend on Trident?
    Rather less with a deterrent than it would be without Trident.

    Granted it's very unlikely we would end up in a nuclear war without the US and France on our side but you never know..
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Byronic said:

    So the Ashes are lost, the Union is finished, Brexit’s a disaster, the new government is bad as the old, and the £ is worth 5 cents.

    It is all quite depressing, isn’t it? Or maybe it is just me.

    Wait till China sends troops into HK. Oh, and Kashmir and Iran kicking off too. Good afternoon!
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    Britain - with various allies - was quite good at impeding further federalising initiatives.

    You have to be in the club to decide on the direction the club is heading in, not standing on the sidelines soiling yourself.
    oh yeah "influence"

    chortle
    Yeah - that worked so well didn't it
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    Cammo won us exemption, remember?
    of course and the LDs said no increase in Uni fees
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    Cammo won us exemption, remember?
    Like a six-year-old "winning" an exemption from a family holiday. The child still has to go with; they just don't have to enjoy themselves.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Boris is starting to upset the right people......

    https://twitter.com/JamesDelingpole/status/1158306141950136320?s=20

    What is Delingpole's evidence for this? Granted Schapps is pro-HS2, so that could be a sign.
    He has ordered a review into HS2 chaired by - the former chairman of HS2.

    But TBH too much has already been done for it to be cancelled now.
    It will never reach Leeds and Manchester though, will it?

    Not that I think it needs to. 2 hours Leeds to KX is plenty quick enough and doable on the existing tracks. A faster journey to Nottingham would be nice, but dumping passengers in Toton rather than the city centre negates any time saving from a faster train.

    30 minutes Leeds to Manchester is what we really need in these parts.

    (PBers in Sheffield may have a different opinion on trans-pennine priorities!)
    I'm pretty confident it will reach Manchester. Leeds I'm less sure of.
    Leeds via Manchester has been suggested - essentially incorporating HS3 into HS2.
    If the government wishes to pretend that Glasgow and Edinburgh are important it needs to go to Leeds (well York) to provide a link to the East Coast route to Scotland...
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    HYUFD said:

    Including Don't Knows Ashcroft poll has Yes only on 46%, the Scottish borders and rural Scotland still heavily No.

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1158319227092254720?s=20

    In Quebec's 2nd referendum on independence from Canada in 1995 Yes led most final polls but No won 51% to 49% as Don't Knows went No

    Must admit, I hadn't really anticipated the highlands being less pro-independence than their cousins in the central belt.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    dr_spyn said:

    The heroic leader of the people tells the rain to stop falling at Whaley Bridge.

    https://twitter.com/JournoLou/status/1158332229598220289

    Hope he’s making sure that all the people working to stop the dam collapsing are taking the requisite number of tea breaks, and aren’t being asked to lift anything too heavy...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    As a unionist you'll come to appreciate ever closer union once it's the thing that binds England and (a united) Ireland.
    so now youre claiminn RoI will rejoin the UK

    can we afford it ?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    Cammo won us exemption, remember?
    of course and the LDs said no increase in Uni fees
    Why are we not in the Euro?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    HYUFD said:

    Including Don't Knows Ashcroft poll has Yes only on 46%, the Scottish borders and rural Scotland still heavily No.

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1158319227092254720?s=20

    In Quebec's 2nd referendum on independence from Canada in 1995 Yes led most final polls but No won 51% to 49% as Don't Knows went No

    Which is of no relevance at all.

    I doubt Ashcroft’s subsamples are very reliable, but it is interesting that the former Labour Central belt now appears keener on Indy than the old SNP stronghold of the rural North East.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    TOPPING said:

    malcolmg said:

    A VoNC in the UK govenment is obviously a UK-wide matter so not relevant. I asked for examples where the votes of Scottish MPs had impacted a vote that was specific to England only. There must be lots given how upset it makes some people on here.

    Sunday trading and Tuition Fees.

    A majority of English MPs backed liberalising Sunday trading laws in England, SNP MPs blocked it. Despite Scotland having liberalised Sunday Trading.

    Labour tripled English tuition fees when a majority of English MPs voted against it. Forced through by SLAB MPs despite Scottish students getting free tuition in Scotland.

    Two examples and both where Scottish MPs overrode English MPs hypocritically.

    How would you feel if English MPs voted that Scottish students studying in Scotland should suddenly not just pay fees but that English students studying in England shouldn't?
    So you did not read my reply.
    1. The SNP clearly stated that the bill to change Sunday trading laws affected Scotland and that if they did not fix that then they would have to vote to protect Scotish intersets, Westminster ignored them
    2. As I stated there is no Scottish Labour party, they have a regional office of the UK unionist Labour party there and they vote as told by their London masters.
    3. PS: they voted against free tuition in Scotland and are a bunch of useless barstewards.
    Here you go, Malc. SNP a bunch of lying, hypocritical, duplicitous fuckers.

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33520547
    Erratum: lying, hypocritical, duplicitous, dishonourable fuckers.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    Byronic said:

    So the Ashes are lost, the Union is finished, Brexit’s a disaster, the new government is bad as the old, and the £ is worth 5 cents.

    It is all quite depressing, isn’t it? Or maybe it is just me.

    Isn't it, Byronic. Don't you think?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Byronic said:

    So the Ashes are lost, the Union is finished, Brexit’s a disaster, the new government is EVEN WORSE THAN the old, and the £ is worth 5 cents.

    It is all quite depressing, isn’t it? Or maybe it is just me.

    FTFY

    But yes, it is depressing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    As a unionist you'll come to appreciate ever closer union once it's the thing that binds England and (a united) Ireland.
    so now youre claiminn RoI will rejoin the UK

    can we afford it ?
    Did you write this?

    "Clearly Ireland now wishes to be brought under the moral tutelage of more modern, more secular, more capitalistic powers. London is a more logical and convenient choice for that role than Brussels."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/europeans-have-started-to-change-their-minds-on-brexit/
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    Cammo won us exemption, remember?
    of course and the LDs said no increase in Uni fees
    Why are we not in the Euro?
    because we;d totally fuck it.

    Bundesbank didnt want us in IIRC
  • eek said:

    Scott_P said:
    What are the odds of a thermonuclear war? How much do we spend on Trident?
    Rather less with a deterrent than it would be without Trident.

    Granted it's very unlikely we would end up in a nuclear war without the US and France on our side but you never know..
    Of course that is true!

    Which is EXACTLY the same with No Deal prep. The better prepared you are the less likely the other side will attempt to bully you.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    That was Camerons deal as I recall...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    Byronic said:

    So the Ashes are lost, the Union is finished, Brexit’s a disaster, the new government is bad as the old, and the £ is worth 5 cents.

    It is all quite depressing, isn’t it? Or maybe it is just me.

    If anyone close to you voted for Brexit, you should give him a firm talking to.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    HYUFD said:

    Including Don't Knows Ashcroft poll has Yes only on 46%, the Scottish borders and rural Scotland still heavily No.

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1158319227092254720?s=20

    In Quebec's 2nd referendum on independence from Canada in 1995 Yes led most final polls but No won 51% to 49% as Don't Knows went No

    Must admit, I hadn't really anticipated the highlands being less pro-independence than their cousins in the central belt.
    Well, there are reasons to be suspicious of this poll, given it comes from Mr Pighead.

    But there are also an awful lot of English people in the Highlands. They move there for the scenery. So it isn't totally surprising it's less pro-independence than say, Paisley.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Instead of two worthwhile unions, we will likely end up with neither.

    I regret this.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited August 2019

    HYUFD said:

    Including Don't Knows Ashcroft poll has Yes only on 46%, the Scottish borders and rural Scotland still heavily No.

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1158319227092254720?s=20

    In Quebec's 2nd referendum on independence from Canada in 1995 Yes led most final polls but No won 51% to 49% as Don't Knows went No

    Must admit, I hadn't really anticipated the highlands being less pro-independence than their cousins in the central belt.
    What the fucking fuck is with it fucking fifty fucking two against fucking forty fucking eight??! FFS
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Foxy said:

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    That was Camerons deal as I recall...
    so now suddenly you believe Cameron, oh well plus ca change.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited August 2019
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Including Don't Knows Ashcroft poll has Yes only on 46%, the Scottish borders and rural Scotland still heavily No.

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1158319227092254720?s=20

    In Quebec's 2nd referendum on independence from Canada in 1995 Yes led most final polls but No won 51% to 49% as Don't Knows went No

    Which is of no relevance at all.

    I doubt Ashcroft’s subsamples are very reliable, but it is interesting that the former Labour Central belt now appears keener on Indy than the old SNP stronghold of the rural North East.
    Glasgow remember voted for independence even in 2014, Edinburgh and Aberdeen still back the Union and oppose independence even on this poll.

    Former rural traditional SNP seats like Moray now have a Tory MP
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    Cammo won us exemption, remember?
    of course and the LDs said no increase in Uni fees
    Why are we not in the Euro?
    because we;d totally fuck it.

    Bundesbank didnt want us in IIRC
    Mind you, the Bundesbank had strong reservations about Germany going in. At one point they threatened to derail the whole process by refusing to allow Germany to inflate the value of its gold reserves as part of its asset base.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    As a unionist you'll come to appreciate ever closer union once it's the thing that binds England and (a united) Ireland.
    so now youre claiminn RoI will rejoin the UK

    can we afford it ?
    Did you write this?

    "Clearly Ireland now wishes to be brought under the moral tutelage of more modern, more secular, more capitalistic powers. London is a more logical and convenient choice for that role than Brussels."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/europeans-have-started-to-change-their-minds-on-brexit/
    looks like Selmayr to me
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:

    Including Don't Knows Ashcroft poll has Yes only on 46%, the Scottish borders and rural Scotland still heavily No.

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1158319227092254720?s=20

    In Quebec's 2nd referendum on independence from Canada in 1995 Yes led most final polls but No won 51% to 49% as Don't Knows went No

    Must admit, I hadn't really anticipated the highlands being less pro-independence than their cousins in the central belt.
    What the fucking fuck is with it fucking fifty fucking two against fucking forty fucking eight??! FFS
    You effed everything up?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Foxy said:

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    That was Camerons deal as I recall...
    When the history books come to be written...
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    edited August 2019
    I would like those in PB who know more about parliamentary procedures and the law.
    If I remember correctly, when the EU extended the 29th March date to 12th April or 22nd May, there was some discussion certainly amongst Brexitors [ I remember Bill Cash asking a question in the HoC as he always does ], that the actual Act of Parliament which said 29th March was not amended. I remember there was a post in PB saying that was not necessary because the EU changing the date always superseded Parlaiment. Is that correct ? In fact, was the 29th March date ever changed ?

    Now I come to the Cummings conundrum. If Johnson and the Tories dissolve Parliament after a VoNC or anyway but calls an election after 31st October; according to them Brexit would have taken place already.

    The reason I put forward the first para is this: what if the EU seeing the political impasse in the UK, unilaterally extend the 31st October deadline to, say, 31st December or any other date ?
    I do not seem to recall Mrs May ever requesting an extension [ except the second time, when she asked for 30th June and the EU ignored her anyway ]

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    Cammo won us exemption, remember?
    of course and the LDs said no increase in Uni fees
    Why are we not in the Euro?
    because we;d totally fuck it.

    Bundesbank didnt want us in IIRC
    Mind you, the Bundesbank had strong reservations about Germany going in. At one point they threatened to derail the whole process by refusing to allow Germany to inflate the value of its gold reserves as part of its asset base.
    the BB were more realistic about mixing a social market economy with anglo saxon capitalism than John Major ever was.
  • Foxy said:

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    That was Camerons deal as I recall...
    Which is meaningless when the rest of the EU still has it and EU laws are determined by QMV.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_P said:
    kill ever closer Union and we'll consider it
    That was Camerons deal as I recall...
    When the history books come to be written...
    ... David Cameron will hope he's not in them
This discussion has been closed.