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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » And so to next week’s Brecon & Radnorshire where new leaders S

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  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,212
    edited July 2019
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:





    This is hard to do well but is the day-to-day job of any investigator, police force etc. If you can't or won't do this you have no business doing that job.

    Why the police behaved like such boobies I don't know. I'm guessing it was a combination of panic / political arse-licking / desire to be associated with a high profile case to make a name for themselves / plain bloody incompetence and second-rateness.

    It's been years since I read it, but I recall being pretty stunned by the attitude of many senior police officers in the Henriques report on the investigations. The idea of not expecting people to prove themselves innocent seemed bizarre to the police, the emphasis on believing accusations, insisting that accusers be referred to as victims even without proof (the police seemed to think this would harm trust in the authorities to not do so, but the judge was not persuaded and no one qualified seemed to have a problem with that - even complainants themselves did not expect to be instantly believed, he said), it was a shocking read.

    https://factuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Report-Independent-Review-of-the-Metropolitan-Police-Services-handling-of-non-recent-sexual-offence-investigations-1-3-1.pdf
    It goes wrong when you confuse investigation with therapy and call those making allegations victims, which seems to assume what you are seeking to prove.

    Investigators are not therapists. If you confuse the two you get into trouble. While you need a great deal of emotional intelligence to be a good investigator, there also - as Graham Greene said about novelists - needs be a sliver of ice in the heart enabling you to see clearly and not be swayed by unnecessary sympathies.

    The police forgot that their role is to investigate and started turning into therapists. Others should have done that. One hopes that they have learnt the lesson but given the abysmal sentimentality which infests so much public decision-making I am not confident.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,212
    In normal times this would be seen as a great success for British diplomacy and our Foreign Secretary.

    In these times ..... it will pass largely unnoticed.
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    A salutary lesson for all those who view Tom Watson as some sort of saviour of the Labour party, and by extension, British politics. He's effective, sure, but a nasty piece of work.

    Meanwhile @Cyclefree has once again forgotten that her job is much harder than she gives credit for, and if it wasn't then it would be harder to make a decent living at.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,212
    Endillion said:

    A salutary lesson for all those who view Tom Watson as some sort of saviour of the Labour party, and by extension, British politics. He's effective, sure, but a nasty piece of work.

    Meanwhile @Cyclefree has once again forgotten that her job is much harder than she gives credit for, and if it wasn't then it would be harder to make a decent living at.

    I'm taking that as some sort of compliment. (I hope.)

    :)

    Good night all.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Cyclefree said:

    In normal times this would be seen as a great success for British diplomacy and our Foreign Secretary.

    In these times ..... it will pass largely unnoticed.
    EU naval force to enforce EU sanctions, no great surprise there
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    On topic, that would be an absolutely appalling result for both our traditional "main" parties. If the Tories had picked a proper candidate then they'd probably be a better than expected Boris bounce away from holding on. As it is, they're on course to do marginally worse in relative terms (in my entirely subjective opinion) than Labour. Who have absolutely no excuse, or much room to surprise on the upside.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Endillion said:

    On topic, that would be an absolutely appalling result for both our traditional "main" parties. If the Tories had picked a proper candidate then they'd probably be a better than expected Boris bounce away from holding on. As it is, they're on course to do marginally worse in relative terms (in my entirely subjective opinion) than Labour. Who have absolutely no excuse, or much room to surprise on the upside.

    Given they were unlikely to hold the seat anyway and Davies could have stood as an independent and split the vote the Tories can make him the fall guy for any defeat having given him his chance and select a fresh candidate for the general election.


    However even now Tories + Brexit Party is more than LD in Brecon so a Boris bounce could make it closer
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Anyone know what time the Tory leadership winner will be declared tomorrow?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,219
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:





    This is hard to do well but is the day-to-day job of any investigator, police force etc. If you can't or won't do this you have no business doing that job.

    Why the police behaved like such boobies I don't know. I'm guessing it was a combination of panic / political arse-licking / desire to be associated with a high profile case to make a name for themselves / plain bloody incompetence and second-rateness.

    It's been years since I read it, but I recall being pretty stunned by the attitude of many senior police officers in the Henriques report on the investigations. The idea of not expecting people to prove themselves innocent seemed bizarre to the police, the emphasis on believing accusations, insisting that accusers be referred to as victims even without proof (the police seemed to think this would harm trust in the authorities to not do so, but the judge was not persuaded and no one qualified seemed to have a problem with that - even complainants themselves did not expect to be instantly believed, he said), it was a shocking read.

    https://factuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Report-Independent-Review-of-the-Metropolitan-Police-Services-handling-of-non-recent-sexual-offence-investigations-1-3-1.pdf
    It goes wrong when you confuse investigation with therapy and call those making allegations victims, which seems to assume what you are seeking to prove.

    Investigators are not therapists. If you confuse the two you get into trouble. While you need a great deal of emotional intelligence to be a good investigator, there also - as Graham Greene said about novelists - needs be a sliver of ice in the heart enabling you to see clearly and not be swayed by unnecessary sympathies.

    The police forgot that their role is to investigate and started turning into therapists. Others should have done that. One hopes that they have learnt the lesson but given the abysmal sentimentality which infests so much public decision-making I am not confident.
    In the mid 1980s I heard the same story about one of Beech's victims at political social events in London and a few years later in Cardiff. If I heard the story I daresay the police did too. Proctor had a conviction, albeit for something that would barely raise an eyebrow now. Private Eye ran stories about Kincora and The Elms, and all this salacious gossip gained traction with the advent of the internet. Easy pickings for the boys in blue?

    It wouldn't have taken much research by Carl Beech to make his own fantasy appear plausible. One would have thought anything other than lazy policing would have tumbled his game at an early stage.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,259
    AndyJS said:

    Anyone know what time the Tory leadership winner will be declared tomorrow?

    11.45?
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,980
    Cyclefree said:

    In normal times this would be seen as a great success for British diplomacy and our Foreign Secretary.

    In these times ..... it will pass largely unnoticed.
    EU Army unthinkable. EU Navy. Bravo.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited July 2019

    AndyJS said:

    Anyone know what time the Tory leadership winner will be declared tomorrow?

    11.45?
    I get the joke. Maybe it will be around that time.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,689
    kle4 said:

    Well, there's a story to inspire confidence in the system.

    South Africa's highest court has ruled that a top state official charged with investigating corruption lied under oath and acted in bad faith.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-49074492

    To be fair, it does rather inspire confidence in the judicary of South Africa, that this judge is willing to expose criminality by a well connected politician.

    Would such a verdict get made here...I guess we will find out in time.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited July 2019
    Byronic said:

    Swinson is a good choice for the Lib Dems. Young and energetic, telegenic and plausible.

    She will take a lot of votes off Remainery Labourites.

    Very unlikely I suspect. Her Tory -led Coalition CV is far too strong. She also comes across as pretty lightweight - the Libdems would have done better to stick with Vince.
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    hamiltonacehamiltonace Posts: 642
    justin124 said:

    Byronic said:

    Swinson is a good choice for the Lib Dems. Young and energetic, telegenic and plausible.

    She will take a lot of votes off Remainery Labourites.

    Very unlikely I suspect. Her Tory -led Coalition CV is far too strong. She also comes across as pretty lightweight - the Libdems would have done better to stick with Vince.

    My parents voted for Davey as they worried about her youth and being Scottish. I however think she will energise the student vote again which is important for the street fighting Lib Dem’s. She has the energy and courage that vince did not have. Compared to Corbyn she is a much more likeable and charasmatic voice for remain and unlike Corbyn she is a true believer
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    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    TOPPING said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh god @TheJezziah will have to clean down his memory and reboot. Is that smoke I can see over Islington right now?
    I'm sure you'll take no time to find the post of mine that contradicts it?

    When reality doesn't work as an attack, just invent whatever suits you I guess. Must be why you are in the the Boris party :)
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    justin124 said:

    Byronic said:

    Swinson is a good choice for the Lib Dems. Young and energetic, telegenic and plausible.

    She will take a lot of votes off Remainery Labourites.

    Very unlikely I suspect. Her Tory -led Coalition CV is far too strong. She also comes across as pretty lightweight - the Libdems would have done better to stick with Vince.
    Clearly you don't follow the polls. Recent YouGov surveys have the LDs taking 24% of the GE2017 LB vote and 35% of the Remain vote

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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    AndyJS said:

    Anyone know what time the Tory leadership winner will be declared tomorrow?

    Quarter to twelve according to the Telegraph.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/22/tory-leadership-race-hour-by-hour-guide-winner-will-revealed/
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    Interesting to see that the Carl Beech story makes the front page of every newspaper except for the Daily Mirror. In fact, it barely gets a mention on their website.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Morning all.

    This is the dawning of the age of the hairy arse......
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    Cyclefree said:

    In normal times this would be seen as a great success for British diplomacy and our Foreign Secretary.

    In these times ..... it will pass largely unnoticed.
    And our Foreign Secretary quite likely dismissed.

    That will be an interesting test of the Johnson ‘administration’.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    tlg86 said:

    Interesting to see that the Carl Beech story makes the front page of every newspaper except for the Daily Mirror. In fact, it barely gets a mention on their website.

    The LibDems will not be happy that Beech has wiped Jo Swinson off the front pages.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    tlg86 said:

    Interesting to see that the Carl Beech story makes the front page of every newspaper except for the Daily Mirror. In fact, it barely gets a mention on their website.

    Why, having paid compensation to others unjustly accused, are the Met defending Harvey Proctor’s claim against them ?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Interesting to see that the Carl Beech story makes the front page of every newspaper except for the Daily Mirror. In fact, it barely gets a mention on their website.

    Why, having paid compensation to others unjustly accused, are the Met defending Harvey Proctor’s claim against them ?
    "Cuz 'e's a villain, Sir."

    Thank you, Constable Savage.....
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:



    This is not difficult stuff.

    I had to deal with serious allegations every day of the week. What any competent investigator does is the following:-

    - You get an
    - when you have done all you reasonably can, you make a decision or recommendation and verify / check / confirm this with others. Spell out what is fact and what is your judgment and the basis for it. Be prepared for others to challenge what you have found and your findings.
    - then write a proper report and pass the matter over to those who take the prosecution or disciplinary forward if that is the decision.

    This is hard to do well but is the day-to-day job of any investigator, police force etc. If you can't or won't do this you have no business doing that job.

    Why the police behaved like such boobies I don't know. I'm guessing it was a combination of panic / political arse-licking / desire to be associated with a high profile case to make a name for themselves / plain bloody incompetence and second-rateness.

    It's been years since I read it, but I recall being pretty stunned by the attitude of many senior police officers in the Henriques report on the investigations. The idea of not expecting people to prove themselves innocent seemed bizarre to the police, the emphasis on believing accusations, insisting that accusers be referred to as victims even without proof (the police seemed to think this would harm trust in the authorities to not do so, but the judge was not persuaded and no one qualified seemed to have a problem with that - even complainants themselves did not expect to be instantly believed, he said), it was a shocking read.

    https://factuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Report-Independent-Review-of-the-Metropolitan-Police-Services-handling-of-non-recent-sexual-offence-investigations-1-3-1.pdf
    Thanks for posting that. It is quite astonishing.

    As Henriques states, “since the entire judicial process is engaged in determining whether a ‘complainant is indeed a ‘victim’, such a approach cannot be questioned...”

    And two lines later a Chief Constable “strongly opposes this view”. Not just a misguided detective, but the entire organisation appeared to have a deep misconception of the purpose of the justice system.

  • Options
    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,602
    Scott_P said:

    Judging from my (ex) CLP's Facebook page (a closed site to which I still appear to have access even though my membership has lapsed) a large majority of the active membership considers that there is absolutely no problem with antisemitism in the Labour Party and spends a lot of time posting pretty nasty bile against the minority of members who assert otherwise, let alone those MPs who have spoken out. It's typical of the sort of intolerant crap that has been in evidence since 2015 and has caused a lot of former members to call time on that narrow sect. Good luck with a programme of "political education" in that context.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:



    This is not difficult stuff.

    I had to deal with serious allegations every day of the week. What any competent investigator does is the following:-

    - You get an
    - when you have done all you reasonably can, you make a decision or recommendation and verify / check / confirm this with others. Spell out what is fact and what is your judgment and the basis for it. Be prepared for others to challenge what you have found and your findings.
    - then write a proper report and pass the matter over to those who take the prosecution or disciplinary forward if that is the decision.

    This is hard to do well but is the day-to-day job of any investigator, police force etc. If you can't or won't do this you have no business doing that job.

    Why the police behaved like such boobies I don't know. I'm guessing it was a combination of panic / political arse-licking / desire to be associated with a high profile case to make a name for themselves / plain bloody incompetence and second-rateness.

    It's been years since I read it, but I recall being pretty stunned by the attitude of many senior police officers in the Henriques report on the investigations. The idea of not expecting people to prove themselves innocent seemed bizarre to the police, the emphasis on believing accusations, insisting that accusers be referred to as victims even without proof (the police seemed to think this would harm trust in the authorities to not do so, but the judge was not persuaded and no one qualified seemed to have a problem with that - even complainants themselves did not expect to be instantly believed, he said), it was a shocking read.

    https://factuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Report-Independent-Review-of-the-Metropolitan-Police-Services-handling-of-non-recent-sexual-offence-investigations-1-3-1.pdf
    Thanks for posting that. It is quite astonishing.

    As Henriques states, “since the entire judicial process is engaged in determining whether a ‘complainant is indeed a ‘victim’, such a approach cannot be questioned...”

    And two lines later a Chief Constable “strongly opposes this view”. Not just a misguided detective, but the entire organisation appeared to have a deep misconception of the purpose of the justice system.

    Wasn't this CPS orthodoxy?
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320

    justin124 said:

    Byronic said:

    Swinson is a good choice for the Lib Dems. Young and energetic, telegenic and plausible.

    She will take a lot of votes off Remainery Labourites.

    Very unlikely I suspect. Her Tory -led Coalition CV is far too strong. She also comes across as pretty lightweight - the Libdems would have done better to stick with Vince.

    My parents voted for Davey as they worried about her youth and being Scottish. I however think she will energise the student vote again which is important for the street fighting Lib Dem’s. She has the energy and courage that vince did not have. Compared to Corbyn she is a much more likeable and charasmatic voice for remain and unlike Corbyn she is a true believer
    Much as I like Davey, another middle-aged man in a suit is probably not what they need.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Good morning, everyone.

    Just begun a book by Norman Dixon, entitled On the Psychology of Military Incompetence.

    Wondering if the lesson within might be somewhat applicable to modern politics.

    Mr. kle4, I was thinking similar things last night. Blindly believing anyone who makes an accusation is not the way a justice system should work. It's insane. (It's practically Cardassian).
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Isn't it a bit previous assuming Boris has won>?
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    I see the UK has joined up with other European countries to create a European navy in the Gulf having been told to look after itself by the US, which had previously instructed the UK to seize an Iranian tanker off the coast of Gibraltar, which we did.
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:





    This is hard to do well but is the day-to-day job of any investigator, police force etc. If you can't or won't do this you have no business doing that job.

    Why the police behaved like such boobies I don't know. I'm guessing it was a combination of panic / political arse-licking / desire to be associated with a high profile case to make a name for themselves / plain bloody incompetence and second-rateness.

    It's been years since I read it, but I recall being pretty stunned by the attitude of many senior police officers in the Henriques report on the investigations. The idea of not expecting people to prove themselves innocent seemed bizarre to the police, the emphasis on believing accusations, insisting that accusers be referred to as victims even without proof (the police seemed to think this would harm trust in the authorities to not do so, but the judge was not persuaded and no one qualified seemed to have a problem with that - even complainants themselves did not expect to be instantly believed, he said), it was a shocking read.

    https://factuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Report-Independent-Review-of-the-Metropolitan-Police-Services-handling-of-non-recent-sexual-offence-investigations-1-3-1.pdf
    It goes wrong when you confuse investigation with therapy and call those making allegations victims, which seems to assume what you are seeking to prove.

    es that they have learnt the lesson but given the abysmal sentimentality which infests so much public decision-making I am not confident.
    In the mid 1980s I heard the same story about one of Beech's victims at political social events in London and a few years later in Cardiff. If I heard the story I daresay the police did too. Proctor had a conviction, albeit for something that would barely raise an eyebrow now. Private Eye ran stories about Kincora and The Elms, and all this salacious gossip gained traction with the advent of the internet. Easy pickings for the boys in blue?

    It wouldn't have taken much research by Carl Beech to make his own fantasy appear plausible. One would have thought anything other than lazy policing would have tumbled his game at an early stage.
    I'd heard similar stories from more than one source that I considered completely reliable, and am sure they were told in good faith. It beggars belief that the Police proceeded on the basis of the testimony of just one witness but I guess we simply have to believe that they did and the accusations were wholly without foundation.
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Scott_P said:

    Judging from my (ex) CLP's Facebook page (a closed site to which I still appear to have access even though my membership has lapsed) a large majority of the active membership considers that there is absolutely no problem with antisemitism in the Labour Party and spends a lot of time posting pretty nasty bile against the minority of members who assert otherwise, let alone those MPs who have spoken out. It's typical of the sort of intolerant crap that has been in evidence since 2015 and has caused a lot of former members to call time on that narrow sect. Good luck with a programme of "political education" in that context.
    If they can expel the most public and active anti-semite in each CLP it will do a lot to put things to right.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Cyclefree said:

    In normal times this would be seen as a great success for British diplomacy and our Foreign Secretary.

    In these times ..... it will pass largely unnoticed.

    A European Army is unthinkable, but a European Navy ...

    The key thing here is that it’s happening after our greatest friend and most reliable ally told us to piss off after we did exactly as we were told when seizing an Iranian tanker. That’s how much the Trump administration values our very, very special relationship. And even now there are credulous Brexit loons who believe we’ll get a great trade deal from the US.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,721
    HYUFD said:

    Endillion said:

    On topic, that would be an absolutely appalling result for both our traditional "main" parties. If the Tories had picked a proper candidate then they'd probably be a better than expected Boris bounce away from holding on. As it is, they're on course to do marginally worse in relative terms (in my entirely subjective opinion) than Labour. Who have absolutely no excuse, or much room to surprise on the upside.

    Given they were unlikely to hold the seat anyway and Davies could have stood as an independent and split the vote the Tories can make him the fall guy for any defeat having given him his chance and select a fresh candidate for the general election.


    However even now Tories + Brexit Party is more than LD in Brecon so a Boris bounce could make it closer
    That's a good point, Tories + Brexit would win if there was only one candidate in Brecon. The flip side is that will be many constituencies in a GE where the two parties will split the vote and let another candidate win.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320
    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. Sandpit, I hope you don't lose out.

    But suspect you will.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,003

    I see the UK has joined up with other European countries to create a European navy in the Gulf having been told to look after itself by the US, which had previously instructed the UK to seize an Iranian tanker off the coast of Gibraltar, which we did.

    It's Mission Accomplished for Iran as the UK won't be seizing another Iranian tanker even if it's got OIL FOR SYRIA painted on side of the hull.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Cyclefree said:

    In normal times this would be seen as a great success for British diplomacy and our Foreign Secretary.

    In these times ..... it will pass largely unnoticed.

    A European Army is unthinkable, but a European Navy ...

    The key thing here is that it’s happening after our greatest friend and most reliable ally told us to piss off after we did exactly as we were told when seizing an Iranian tanker. That’s how much the Trump administration values our very, very special relationship. And even now there are credulous Brexit loons who believe we’ll get a great trade deal from the US.
    lol

    if Trump had done something the left would be screaming about us being dragged in to an American war and being puppets

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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I am down to about -£30, thanks to heavily laying other no-hopers.

    We won’t be hearing about front-runner jinx in Tory contests for a while.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898

    Mr. Sandpit, I hope you don't lose out.

    But suspect you will.

    I have less chance of winning than Sebastian Vettel has of taking the drivers’ championship this year!
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    I wonder whether Johnson might offer Farage a job? It would have to be a big one but as Farage is a one man band and could deliver his whole Party and Johnson is without scruples it's got to be a possibility.

    What job? US Ambassador? Deputy PM with a seat in the Lords?

    Don't rule anything out however sleazy. He won't
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308
    Lady Lily Pink looking a pretty attractive option at the moment.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    Lay Rory as an initial strategy?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    Roger said:

    I wonder whether Johnson might offer Farage a job? It would have to be a big one but as Farage is a one man band and could deliver his whole Party and Johnson is without scruples it's got to be a possibility.

    What job? US Ambassador? Deputy PM with a seat in the Lords?

    Don't rule anything out however sleazy. He won't

    He won’t want to go to the Lords, for the same reason as Cameron or Blair - they have to declare their sources of income.

    Farage will keep doing what he’s doing until Brexit actually happens.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320
    edited July 2019
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    You're not a Punter if you don't have your bad books.

    The important thing is to understand why you got it wrong and avoid making the same mistake again. In Boris's case it was always understood that the Membership would see him home if he got to the run off. It was widely believed however that Conservative MPs wouldn't allow him to get that far. I think this was true for a long time, but after the debacle of the Euros many of them must have decided that he was their only chance of avoiding a disaster at the next election. Any Punter who picked up on that change would have avoided heavy losses, but it wasn't that easy to pick. One indicator was Portillo, a prominent opponent of Boris hitherto, changing his mind very publicly. Even so, there remained reason to think the change in the thinking of MPs wasn't sufficient.

    In short, the facts changed and I didn't change my view. I was wrong, but it isn't the sort of losing bet that makes me want to give up. Just move on.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    F1: some interesting Red Bull bets possible.

    I've backed Verstappen at 10 each way (fifth the odds top three) to be fastest qualifier. Hockenheim's a slow, tight circuit. At Monaco he was third, behind the Mercedes. In Austria, he was third on pace (promoted to second due to Hamilton's penalty). Last time, Silverstone, he was fourth, but that's a much faster circuit than Hockenheim will be.

    Gasly's 151 to win. If that had an each way to third, I'd be tempted. He raced very well last time, and 31 for a podium on a circuit that should suit Red Bull would be very tempting. The each way for the win is just to second, though.

    Verstappen's also 10 for the win, if it were to third, I'd definitely tip that. It might still be worth a look.

    Also, there's rain possible on both days. Odds against on Saturday, about 50/50 or so on race day.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,983

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    +2 - my consolation is that I can't afford the popcorn I would have otherwise bought. And in the overall scheme of things I'm still well up...

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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,212
    I see that politicians do not understand how to make threats. Nor what principles mean.

    If you believe that Johnson is not fit to be PM and that a No Deal exit is not a good idea, then you have ultimately be prepared to vote against the government if that is what your party seeks to enact.

    Moaning about how bad it is then falling into line is utterly pointless. Just as pointless as moaning about anti-semitism and doing nothing.

    We are going to get buckets of pointless moaning and wailing between now and 31 October. If we could bottle and sell it we could probably earn enough to pay for every lamb in the country to be slaughtered and still have money left over for us all to go on a round the world cruise.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Also, it's going to be hot. 39C reckoned for Friday. 30C give or take over the weekend (with rain, so probably hotter if the skies are clear).

    That won't help Mercedes.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    I note the ridiculous Hogan-Howe now sits in the House of Lords.
    And Steve Roundhouse, one of the senior officers involved in ‘credible and true’ is now DG Operations at the National Crime Agency.

    Failing upward.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,212
    Nigelb said:

    I note the ridiculous Hogan-Howe now sits in the House of Lords.
    And Steve Roundhouse, one of the senior officers involved in ‘credible and true’ is now DG Operations at the National Crime Agency.

    Failing upward.

    A lot of policemen are just not very good, very second-rate in fact.

    A lot of people in public life are second-rate, at best.

    Does this come as a surprise to you?
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    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Will Johnson’s first act be to withdraw from the Anglo-French naval task force?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    Lay Rory as an initial strategy?
    Rather like the current contest, a lot is going to depend on the timing and circumstances of the next leader’s resignation.

    If Boris is forced out by the end of this year, having failed to deliver Brexit but still PM, then the next leader will be an unequivocal no-dealer. Conversely if he gets to 2022 and resigns having lost the election, and a bunch of socialists are running the country, then a more liberal leader in the mould of Rory might have a chance.

    You’d want your book set up on the basis of an early contest, so yes, lay Rory as a starting point. Not that I’ll have much available to do so!
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note the ridiculous Hogan-Howe now sits in the House of Lords.
    And Steve Roundhouse, one of the senior officers involved in ‘credible and true’ is now DG Operations at the National Crime Agency.

    Failing upward.

    A lot of policemen are just not very good, very second-rate in fact.

    A lot of people in public life are second-rate, at best.

    Does this come as a surprise to you?
    and it's different in say journalism or banking ?
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    I laid the favourite consistently. I am making a four figure sum today. It turns out that realising your error quickly enough is almost as useful a skill as being right in the first place.

    It also helps that Boris Johnson was not the only favourite in that period and there were some ludicrously priced runners at various stages.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,343
    dixiedean said:



    A desire to catch someone high profile, having had Savile reported numerous times with no enquiries made.
    Natural, but unprofessional.

    On a minor scale, I remember being stopped at night for driving too slowly (20 mph or so) through an unfamiliar bit of Derbyshire (I'd been invited to see some badgers by the Badger Trust). The policeman identified me with a malicious grin (I really don't usually think that), said that drunk drivers often drive with exaggerated caution, and was very clearly disappointed to find that I was sober.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    Lay Rory as an initial strategy?
    Rather like the current contest, a lot is going to depend on the timing and circumstances of the next leader’s resignation.

    If Boris is forced out by the end of this year, having failed to deliver Brexit but still PM, then the next leader will be an unequivocal no-dealer. Conversely if he gets to 2022 and resigns having lost the election, and a bunch of socialists are running the country, then a more liberal leader in the mould of Rory might have a chance.

    You’d want your book set up on the basis of an early contest, so yes, lay Rory as a starting point. Not that I’ll have much available to do so!
    Rory always seemed an unlikely leader, particularly for the Tory party, and has a better (if still small) chance if the Tory party collapses or splits and re-emerges.

    Nevertheless the impact of his leadership campaign will surely fade in coming months, and like 2017 Corbymania his "strolling the streets" campaign is something that wouldn't have the same impact repeated. As a trading bet I reckon laying Rory now makes sense, if his odds are good enough.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289

    Also, it's going to be hot. 39C reckoned for Friday. 30C give or take over the weekend (with rain, so probably hotter if the skies are clear).

    That won't help Mercedes.

    London on Thursday is expected to give the 2015 all-time July highest temperature record a shot
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,689

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    I laid the favourite consistently. I am making a four figure sum today. It turns out that realising your error quickly enough is almost as useful a skill as being right in the first place.

    It also helps that Boris Johnson was not the only favourite in that period and there were some ludicrously priced runners at various stages.
    In the end in political betting the favourite usually wins such contests, but the runners and riders change quite frequently. Laying the winner is a great strategy early in a contest, but there is a time to bail out. I am fairly neutral today, would be a big green if Hunt wins.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    edited July 2019

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    I laid the favourite consistently. I am making a four figure sum today. It turns out that realising your error quickly enough is almost as useful a skill as being right in the first place.

    It also helps that Boris Johnson was not the only favourite in that period and there were some ludicrously priced runners at various stages.
    You bugger! As @Peter_the_Punter says above, the trick was working out when the wind changed and I missed it until the first round of MP ballots. Probably also because I didn’t want the outcome and would have preferred Hunt or Gove.

    Anyway, first politics miss in a while, and the important thing is to learn from one’s mistakes.

    (Assuming of course that Hunt doesn’t win, in which case I’ll be in the Maldives next week!)
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    On the general post/pre- Boris mortem, when I look back on this market I did very well out of backing Hunt at long odds and laying JRM when he was favourite. I made other good bets like laying Davis, Ruth and Raab but panicked and unwound them too early. I'm up but only by £40.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note the ridiculous Hogan-Howe now sits in the House of Lords.
    And Steve Roundhouse, one of the senior officers involved in ‘credible and true’ is now DG Operations at the National Crime Agency.

    Failing upward.

    A lot of policemen are just not very good, very second-rate in fact.

    A lot of people in public life are second-rate, at best.

    Does this come as a surprise to you?
    No.
    But advancement on the back of public disgrace grates a little.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    That approach of betting big to minimise losses terrifies me. It's so utterly depressing to do, and every so often your original bet comes good, and then you're in a hole many times as big.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    I laid the favourite consistently. I am making a four figure sum today. It turns out that realising your error quickly enough is almost as useful a skill as being right in the first place.

    It also helps that Boris Johnson was not the only favourite in that period and there were some ludicrously priced runners at various stages.
    A modest three figure sum for me, but no less welcome for that. It’s a four figure sum if Hunt somehow manages it but that’s vanishingly unlikely.

    As soon as Boris looked a very strong runner with the MPs I reversed my position and clawed it back, helped by laying Stewart and, in particular, Leadsom who was ludicrously short for a significant period of time.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    edited July 2019
    rkrkrk said:

    On the general post/pre- Boris mortem, when I look back on this market I did very well out of backing Hunt at long odds and laying JRM when he was favourite. I made other good bets like laying Davis, Ruth and Raab but panicked and unwound them too early. I'm up but only by £40.

    Yes, laying JRM was the biggest single betting risk I have taken, but it seemed such a sure thing. Its annoying to see all the potential winnings disappear into a Bozo shaped hole.

    When giving HY his due kudos for backing the Bozo, we should also remember the long periods when he was posting incessantly about the coming JRM-led Tory party.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    I laid the favourite consistently. I am making a four figure sum today. It turns out that realising your error quickly enough is almost as useful a skill as being right in the first place.

    It also helps that Boris Johnson was not the only favourite in that period and there were some ludicrously priced runners at various stages.
    Probably also because I didn’t want the outcome and would have preferred Hunt or Gove.

    This might be your problem Sandpit.

    Never ever bet with your heart. Only ever your head, and keep it evidence based at all times.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    I laid the favourite consistently. I am making a four figure sum today. It turns out that realising your error quickly enough is almost as useful a skill as being right in the first place.

    It also helps that Boris Johnson was not the only favourite in that period and there were some ludicrously priced runners at various stages.
    Probably also because I didn’t want the outcome and would have preferred Hunt or Gove.

    This might be your problem Sandpit.

    Never ever bet with your heart. Only ever your head, and keep it evidence based at all times.
    Yup!
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,250
    edited July 2019
    B&R is a Slam Dunk for Jeremy Corbyns Labour Party. Now that he has finally seen off evil Blairites like Tom Watson the good people of Brecon have seen the Truth and the Light and will flock to support the world's leading scourge of anti-semitism. The final step in His ascension is our brilliant Brexit policy to be Remain whilst in opposition, and when you elect Him to government to pivot to Leave on a special deal that the EU will grant only upon Him
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    You're not a Punter if you don't have your bad books.

    The important thing is to understand why you got it wrong and avoid making the same mistake again. In Boris's case it was always understood that the Membership would see him home if he got to the run off. It was widely believed however that Conservative MPs wouldn't allow him to get that far. I think this was true for a long time, but after the debacle of the Euros many of them must have decided that he was their only chance of avoiding a disaster at the next election. Any Punter who picked up on that change would have avoided heavy losses, but it wasn't that easy to pick. One indicator was Portillo, a prominent opponent of Boris hitherto, changing his mind very publicly. Even so, there remained reason to think the change in the thinking of MPs wasn't sufficient.

    In short, the facts changed and I didn't change my view. I was wrong, but it isn't the sort of losing bet that makes me want to give up. Just move on.
    Yes, that about sums it up.

    If it’s any consolidation I’m fairly good at reading the Tory party (which I understand) but less good at reading the Labour Party, which I don’t.

    For that I rely on reading the analysis of others who I respect as being more informed and objective than I am.

  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Scott_P said:
    Including our very own @Morris_Dancer ?!? .... I think we should be told ... :sunglasses:
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394
    Dura_Ace said:

    I see the UK has joined up with other European countries to create a European navy in the Gulf having been told to look after itself by the US, which had previously instructed the UK to seize an Iranian tanker off the coast of Gibraltar, which we did.

    It's Mission Accomplished for Iran as the UK won't be seizing another Iranian tanker even if it's got OIL FOR SYRIA painted on side of the hull.

    Hard to disagree with that.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    You're not a Punter if you don't have your bad books.

    The important thing is to understand why you got it wrong and avoid making the same mistake again. In Boris's case it was always understood that the Membership would see him home if he got to the run off. It was widely believed however that Conservative MPs wouldn't allow him to get that far. I think this was true for a long time, but after the debacle of the Euros many of them must have decided that he was their only chance of avoiding a disaster at the next election. Any Punter who picked up on that change would have avoided heavy losses, but it wasn't that easy to pick. One indicator was Portillo, a prominent opponent of Boris hitherto, changing his mind very publicly. Even so, there remained reason to think the change in the thinking of MPs wasn't sufficient.

    In short, the facts changed and I didn't change my view. I was wrong, but it isn't the sort of losing bet that makes me want to give up. Just move on.
    Yes, that about sums it up.

    If it’s any consolidation I’m fairly good at reading the Tory party (which I understand) but less good at reading the Labour Party, which I don’t.

    For that I rely on reading the analysis of others who I respect as being more informed and objective than I am.

    I guess HY had a significant head start on the rest of us in understanding that Tory politicians could be quite definite about something one minute and then quite definite about something different the next.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    On a minor scale, I remember being stopped at night for driving too slowly (20 mph or so) through an unfamiliar bit of Derbyshire (I'd been invited to see some badgers by the Badger Trust). The policeman identified me with a malicious grin (I really don't usually think that), said that drunk drivers often drive with exaggerated caution, and was very clearly disappointed to find that I was sober.

    Who knew Anna Soubry was previously a constable ?!? .... :smile:

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Anyway, when the market restarts the price I’ll be looking for first is Jacob Rees-Mogg’s.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    Rumours that one of the three ex-Tory TIGs (i.e. Heidi or Sarah, now) is about to join the LibDems continue to circulate..
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    You're not a Punter if you don't have your bad books.

    The important thing is to understand why you got it wrong and avoid making the same mistake again. In Boris's case it was always understood that the Membership would see him home if he got to the run off. It was widely believed however that Conservative MPs wouldn't allow him to get that far. I think this was true for a long time, but after the debacle of the Euros many of them must have decided that he was their only chance of avoiding a disaster at the next election. Any Punter who picked up on that change would have avoided heavy losses, but it wasn't that easy to pick. One indicator was Portillo, a prominent opponent of Boris hitherto, changing his mind very publicly. Even so, there remained reason to think the change in the thinking of MPs wasn't sufficient.

    In short, the facts changed and I didn't change my view. I was wrong, but it isn't the sort of losing bet that makes me want to give up. Just move on.
    Yes, that about sums it up.

    If it’s any consolidation I’m fairly good at reading the Tory party (which I understand) but less good at reading the Labour Party, which I don’t.

    For that I rely on reading the analysis of others who I respect as being more informed and objective than I am.

    I guess HY had a significant head start on the rest of us in understanding that Tory politicians could be quite definite about something one minute and then quite definite about something different the next.
    He was right, and credit to him for that, but for different reasons to those he consistently laid out for years. The facts changed so his prediction came good.

    Otherwise it’s just a case of stopped clocks.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    You're not a Punter if you don't have your bad books.

    The importthat change would have avoided heavy losses, but it wasn't that easy to pick. One indicator was Portillo, a prominent opponent of Boris hitherto, changing his mind very publicly. Even so, there remained reason to think the change in the thinking of MPs wasn't sufficient.

    In short, the facts changed and I didn't change my view. I was wrong, but it isn't the sort of losing bet that makes me want to give up. Just move on.
    Yes, that about sums it up.

    If it’s any consolidation I’m fairly good at reading the Tory party (which I understand) but less good at reading the Labour Party, which I don’t.

    For that I rely on reading the analysis of others who I respect as being more informed and objective than I am.

    I guess HY had a significant head start on the rest of us in understanding that Tory politicians could be quite definite about something one minute and then quite definite about something different the next.
    He was right, and credit to him for that, but for different reasons to those he consistently laid out for years. The facts changed so his prediction came good.

    Otherwise it’s just a case of stopped clocks.
    For a long period, I agree - he told us the age of JRM was nigh and subsequently advanced a whole series of fanciful scenarios for Boris that didn't come to pass.

    He did however identify quicker than most that the MPs were going to fold rather than act to keep Boris off the ballot.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. W, I remain in Yorkshire.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    You're not a Punter if you don't have your bad books.

    The important thing is to understand why you got it wrong and avoid making the same mistake again. In Boris's case it was always understood that the Membership would see him home if he got to the run off. It was widely believed however that Conservative MPs wouldn't allow him to get that far. I think this was true for a long time, but after the debacle of the Euros many of them must have decided that he was their only chance of avoiding a disaster at the next election. Any Punter who picked up on that change would have avoided heavy losses, but it wasn't that easy to pick. One indicator was Portillo, a prominent opponent of Boris hitherto, changing his mind very publicly. Even so, there remained reason to think the change in the thinking of MPs wasn't sufficient.

    In short, the facts changed and I didn't change my view. I was wrong, but it isn't the sort of losing bet that makes me want to give up. Just move on.
    Yes, that about sums it up.

    If it’s any consolidation I’m fairly good at reading the Tory party (which I understand) but less good at reading the Labour Party, which I don’t.

    For that I rely on reading the analysis of others who I respect as being more informed and objective than I am.

    I guess HY had a significant head start on the rest of us in understanding that Tory politicians could be quite definite about something one minute and then quite definite about something different the next.
    LOL.

    Craven obeisance towards the next boss is certainly a characteristic:
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/23/health-secretary-buries-paper-smoking-obesity-johnson
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,314

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh god @TheJezziah will have to clean down his memory and reboot. Is that smoke I can see over Islington right now?
    I'm sure you'll take no time to find the post of mine that contradicts it?

    When reality doesn't work as an attack, just invent whatever suits you I guess. Must be why you are in the the Boris party :)
    Blimey mate 2.30am they've got you working nights. Tough gig.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,314
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    I laid the favourite consistently. I am making a four figure sum today. It turns out that realising your error quickly enough is almost as useful a skill as being right in the first place.

    It also helps that Boris Johnson was not the only favourite in that period and there were some ludicrously priced runners at various stages.
    In the end in political betting the favourite usually wins such contests, but the runners and riders change quite frequently. Laying the winner is a great strategy early in a contest, but there is a time to bail out. I am fairly neutral today, would be a big green if Hunt wins.
    Yes. I'm green large on Hunt but unless we have a 2015 10pm moment I'm expecting to lose. I would feel dirty making money from Boris's success.
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    I laid the favourite consistently. I am making a four figure sum today. It turns out that realising your error quickly enough is almost as useful a skill as being right in the first place.

    It also helps that Boris Johnson was not the only favourite in that period and there were some ludicrously priced runners at various stages.
    How many favourites did you end up laying?

    I think I can remember: Rees-Mogg, Davis, Gove and Johnson, of course. Were Raab or Javid ever favourite?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. Me, I think Hunt may've been favourite for a time. If not top favourite, certainly in the top three.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    blessed are the peacemakers
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited July 2019
    Lay the favourite while there is still time. Sorry, I meant, regarding laying the favourite: while there is still time, check the price graphs for all the runners. Boris has not always been market leader.

    ETA or just read Alastair Meeks's 8.21 post.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Mr. W, I remain in Yorkshire.

    So, rebellion in Yorkshire against the new regime.

    Will you be tub thumping and bell shaking at Stamford Bridge as the insurgents did in September 1066. Are you a lineal male descendent of Tostig Godwinson ?

    It didn't end well for Tostig at the Battle of Stamford Bridge or his brother at Hastings shortly after.

    But who is the later day William of Normandy ???? ..... :smile:
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308
    I really cannot recall an ascension of a PM even remotely like this one. I think most people knew that Brown was going to be a disaster in advance but he had a honeymoon, a reasonably united/cowed party and of course a majority.

    Boris is taking office with a paper majority (assuming the DUP play nice) of 2-3 but in reality it is obvious from day 1 that he cannot rely upon a significant strand of his own party, just as May couldn't before him. What on earth is he going to do?

    Surely he needs to reach out to as many strands of his own party as will give him the time of day. Keeping Hunt as FS would be an obvious starting place. Asking Rory to reconsider is worth the rebuff. Not appointing people who are hated by minority sections of the party for their disloyalty and obsessions makes some sense.

    But none of it works. When you have the likes of the absurd Duncan, the obsessed Grieve, the more than semi detached Greening, the I'm really interesting , I just hide it really well Hammond, you could go on most of the day, you are well short of a majority. The only sane thing to do is to identify the battlefield you want to fight on and then contrive a GE. Boris will not be PM in any practical sense until he has had such an election and won it. Which may never happen of course.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Mr. Me, I think Hunt may've been favourite for a time. If not top favourite, certainly in the top three.

    A lot of us, and you can see it in this thread, backed Hunt at 3-figure prices and then it was just a matter of greening up. My best bet was Hammond, though, who if the Cabinet had a lick of sense would today be caretaker prime minister in charge of making Brexit go away as an issue.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    I laid the favourite consistently. I am making a four figure sum today. It turns out that realising your error quickly enough is almost as useful a skill as being right in the first place.

    It also helps that Boris Johnson was not the only favourite in that period and there were some ludicrously priced runners at various stages.
    How many favourites did you end up laying?

    I think I can remember: Rees-Mogg, Davis, Gove and Johnson, of course. Were Raab or Javid ever favourite?
    Treating the next Prime Minister market as paired with this one, Jeremy Corbyn too.

    My big money makers were Jeremy Corbyn, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Andrea Leadsom, Rory Stewart and David Lidington. Nigel Farage had a flowering for next Prime Minister too that I was happy to sell to. Having got on Jeremy Hunt at long odds, I was able to sell some of that at a big profit. I made a bit from most of the original hopefuls in the story leadership race by selling their delusions. This more than compensated for getting Boris Johnson wrong.

    However, I would really welcome a few more Conservative MPs following Sir Alan Duncan’s principled lead. Boris Johnson not being next Prime Minister would turn a nice payout into a bonanza.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    Cyclefree said:

    I see that politicians do not understand how to make threats. Nor what principles mean.

    If you believe that Johnson is not fit to be PM and that a No Deal exit is not a good idea, then you have ultimately be prepared to vote against the government if that is what your party seeks to enact.

    Moaning about how bad it is then falling into line is utterly pointless. Just as pointless as moaning about anti-semitism and doing nothing.

    We are going to get buckets of pointless moaning and wailing between now and 31 October. If we could bottle and sell it we could probably earn enough to pay for every lamb in the country to be slaughtered and still have money left over for us all to go on a round the world cruise.

    Indeed so. Whether it's those against no deal or supposedly angry at Corbyn very few follow through with actions that would back up their claims of how worried or angry they are.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    IanB2 said:

    Rumours that one of the three ex-Tory TIGs (i.e. Heidi or Sarah, now) is about to join the LibDems continue to circulate..

    There'll be doing it one by one to maximise the impact.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note the ridiculous Hogan-Howe now sits in the House of Lords.
    And Steve Roundhouse, one of the senior officers involved in ‘credible and true’ is now DG Operations at the National Crime Agency.

    Failing upward.

    A lot of policemen are just not very good, very second-rate in fact.

    A lot of people in public life are second-rate, at best.

    Does this come as a surprise to you?
    No.
    But advancement on the back of public disgrace grates a little.
    Whilst I don't like Tom Watson, and he partly was motivated by political spite in this matter, the blame really does lie almost wholly with the police.

    If someone comes to you with very serious allegations, you really can do nothing else but encourage them to take them to the police.

    It is beyond shocking that all the senior Plods have been promoted, or moved on to more prestigious appointments, or allowed to retire without censure or criticism.

    I see three Junior Plods are still facing disciplinary action -- I am sure they will be made an example of -- but how very typical of modern Britain that all the Senior Plods have moved onwards and upwards.

    Just like the Bankers.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Five hours to go until I lose about £250, what a silly idea was it to keep laying the favourite for two and a half years!

    If it is any consolation, you are not alone.
    I’m sure there will be a few quiet PBers today. Betting strategies always work until they don’t!

    What’s really annoying is that I had a brilliant cricket World Cup, won enough for a decent holiday and had to pile it all on Boris at 1/5 or 1/10 to minimise the losses.

    On the positive side, the next Tory leader market will be open again this afternoon, with a blank book and probably not too long until the contest ;)
    I laid the favourite consistently. I am making a four figure sum today. It turns out that realising your error quickly enough is almost as useful a skill as being right in the first place.

    It also helps that Boris Johnson was not the only favourite in that period and there were some ludicrously priced runners at various stages.
    A modest three figure sum for me, but no less welcome for that. It’s a four figure sum if Hunt somehow manages it but that’s vanishingly unlikely.

    As soon as Boris looked a very strong runner with the MPs I reversed my position and clawed it back, helped by laying Stewart and, in particular, Leadsom who was ludicrously short for a significant period of time.
    Yes, once the mps turned his status as favourite was assured. Prior to that even some of his allies worried hence their wanting the rules changed to accommodate him, but when mps gave up and decided they needed to gamble on him it was all over for the others.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Do we crown Boris king today ?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. JohnL, I have a little on Hunt at those odds(ish) but also backed Boris at about 9. Bearing in mind over bets, I'm roughly flat/mildly green if Boris wins. Nicely green if Hunt does.

    Mr. W, one suspects the next Harrowing of the North will be Boris' electoral performance.
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