Bridlington North (East Riding of Yorkshire) result:
LDEM: 42.7% (+42.7) CON: 26.6% (-44.5) YORK: 11.4% (+11.4) UKIP: 6.4% (+6.4) LAB: 4.4% (-24.5) IND (Dixon): 4.1% (+4.1) IND (Robson): 2.5% (+2.5) IND (Milns): 1.9% (+1.9)
Liberal Democrat GAIN from Conservative.
Another former Brexit stronghold backing an overwhelmingly remain party.
It is time to recognise the wheels have come off the Brexit Bus with its lies and spin.
No deal will destroy jobs and industry but look on the bright side, Blue Passports.
Maybe it will and maybe it wont but Remainers have spread so many lies and scare stories that have been proved false that many people do not believe the risks claimed about No Deal are true.
Not so many people in Bridlington.
LibDems making imbecilic extrapolations from local council byelection results has been happening for decades.
Ignore the Local elections, European elections and polls at your peril, Tories.
Lib Dems have the wind in their sails while Tories are drifting to the rocks.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
Disgraceful, how can any democrat support such behavior?
A democrat who respects the will of the people Parliament has so far refused to respect by voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal
The will of the people as expressed in the 2017 general election is that there should not be a No Deal Brexit.
But that there should be a Brexit.
Indeed - and a large majority in the country would support BINO. But the Tory right won’t. And as we know with the Tories party always comes before country.
The imbecility of the ERG is undoubted but how many non-Conservative MPs voted for the EU's own WDA ?
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
Bridlington North (East Riding of Yorkshire) result:
LDEM: 42.7% (+42.7) CON: 26.6% (-44.5) YORK: 11.4% (+11.4) UKIP: 6.4% (+6.4) LAB: 4.4% (-24.5) IND (Dixon): 4.1% (+4.1) IND (Robson): 2.5% (+2.5) IND (Milns): 1.9% (+1.9)
Liberal Democrat GAIN from Conservative.
Even leave supporting pensioners are deserting the Tories...
Shocking result for the conservatives and labour
But this cannot be right, Hyufd tells us Boris is going to achieve a majority.
I warned him yesterday that Boris is no Messiah
Last night I was knocking up in Chigwell Row where the Tories held the seat 344 votes to 288 for the LDs in a parish council by elections and I spent a lot of time telling Brexit Party voters 'Boris is on the way' and it was a straight Tory v LD fight to get enough of them out to vote Tory
The problem is that momentum is moving to remain and there are an increasing number of voters who see the Lib Dems as the one party who have been consistent in wanting to stop brexit and voters from both the conservatives and labour are turning to them.
I also think that many labour voters now turning to the Lib Dems will be moving permanently as they turn their backs on the toxic leadership of the labour party
Boris is not even beating Hunt in the preferred PM stakes with voters and this weeks disasterous PR for Boris over the Ambassador shows he cannot think on his feet
He is not the Messiah and is a very long way from a majority
Nope, according to Comres a Boris led Tory Party gets a majority of 36, a Hunt or May led Tory Party sees a Corbyn minority government
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
Disgraceful, how can any democrat support such behavior?
A democrat who respects the will of the people Parliament has so far refused to respect by voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal
The referendum was remain vs leave with a very good deal, negotiated quickly. At the GE no deal lost by 98% to <2%. It has never been supported by the majority of the country, any democrat knows it has no mandate. </p>
The referendum was no such thing. It was remain vs leave. We instructed the government to leave and we haven't done so yet. Proroguing parliament might be shocking, it certainly is to me and would have a world of unintended consequences, but if done legally in order to achieve an instruction democratically delivered to the UK government, then I get it.
Bridlington North (East Riding of Yorkshire) result:
LDEM: 42.7% (+42.7) CON: 26.6% (-44.5) YORK: 11.4% (+11.4) UKIP: 6.4% (+6.4) LAB: 4.4% (-24.5) IND (Dixon): 4.1% (+4.1) IND (Robson): 2.5% (+2.5) IND (Milns): 1.9% (+1.9)
Liberal Democrat GAIN from Conservative.
Even leave supporting pensioners are deserting the Tories...
Shocking result for the conservatives and labour
But this cannot be right, Hyufd tells us Boris is going to achieve a majority.
I warned him yesterday that Boris is no Messiah
Last night I was knocking up in Chigwell Row where the Tories held the seat 344 votes to 288 for the LDs in a parish council by elections and I spent a lot of time telling Brexit Party voters 'Boris is on the way' and it was a straight Tory v LD fight to get enough of them out to vote Tory
The problem is that momentum is moving to remain and there are an increasing number of voters who see the Lib Dems as the one party who have been consistent in wanting to stop brexit and voters from both the conservatives and labour are turning to them.
I also think that many labour voters now turning to the Lib Dems will be moving permanently as they turn their backs on the toxic leadership of the labour party
Boris is not even beating Hunt in the preferred PM stakes with voters and this weeks disasterous PR for Boris over the Ambassador shows he cannot think on his feet
He is not the Messiah and is a very long way from a majority
I believe HYUFD has a point that Brexit/Tories combined numbers are interchangeable either way. What I cannot factor into the equation is how many Tories would peel off and vote LD for one time only in order to see the back of Brexit and Johnsin before returning to the fold once the dust had settled.
The question is, would you do that, possibly saving your party for the longer term?
Bridlington North (East Riding of Yorkshire) result:
LDEM: 42.7% (+42.7) CON: 26.6% (-44.5) YORK: 11.4% (+11.4) UKIP: 6.4% (+6.4) LAB: 4.4% (-24.5) IND (Dixon): 4.1% (+4.1) IND (Robson): 2.5% (+2.5) IND (Milns): 1.9% (+1.9)
Liberal Democrat GAIN from Conservative.
Even leave supporting pensioners are deserting the Tories...
Shocking result for the conservatives and labour
But this cannot be right, Hyufd tells us Boris is going to achieve a majority.
I warned him yesterday that Boris is no Messiah
Last night I was knocking up in Chigwell Row where the Tories held the seat 344 votes to 288 for the LDs in a parish council by election and I spent a lot of time telling Brexit Party voters 'Boris is on the way' and it was a straight Tory v LD fight to get enough of them out to vote Tory
I'm sure you're right about Chigwell Row, but I can assure you if you tried that here - a Con/LD marginal at district and county levels until recently - that would be a great way of firming up the Lib Dem vote. Boris is Marmite. (Slippery and non-transparent.)
Out of interest, is there any polling breaking down Boris vs Hunt by geography, demographic, NRS social grade etc.? It would be very useful for future predictions to know where Boris isn't cutting through.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
So I take it that you don’t personally think there is much short term downside to the U.K. from no deal? (long term effects either way being irrelevant to an election in, er, November.
And just to be clear, prorogue gets Parliament in late October will guarantee no deal, not your fantasy “deal or no deal Brexit”
Parliament has so far refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Boris voted for at MV3 so if it has to be No Deal to deliver Brexit so be it.
Having delivered Brexit even with No Deal and out of the EU orbit we can then start negotiating for a Canada style FTA with the EU and FTAs with the rest of the world until they are willing to do so
Not until we pay the divorce bill, enshrine Eu citizens rights and accept the backstop will any negotiations take place.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
So I take it that you don’t personally think there is much short term downside to the U.K. from no deal? (long term effects either way being irrelevant to an election in, er, November.
And just to be clear, prorogue gets Parliament in late October will guarantee no deal, not your fantasy “deal or no deal Brexit”
Parliament has so far refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Boris voted for at MV3 so if it has to be No Deal to deliver Brexit so be it.
Having delivered Brexit even with No Deal and out of the EU orbit we can then start negotiating for a Canada style FTA with the EU and FTAs with the rest of the world until they are willing to do so
How seriously will other countries negotiate with a government in chaos and a suspended parliament?
Bridlington North (East Riding of Yorkshire) result:
LDEM: 42.7% (+42.7) CON: 26.6% (-44.5) YORK: 11.4% (+11.4) UKIP: 6.4% (+6.4) LAB: 4.4% (-24.5) IND (Dixon): 4.1% (+4.1) IND (Robson): 2.5% (+2.5) IND (Milns): 1.9% (+1.9)
Liberal Democrat GAIN from Conservative.
Even leave supporting pensioners are deserting the Tories...
Shocking result for the conservatives and labour
But this cannot be right, Hyufd tells us Boris is going to achieve a majority.
I warned him yesterday that Boris is no Messiah
Last night I was knocking up in Chigwell Row where the Tories held the seat 344 votes to 288 for the LDs in a parish council by elections and I spent a lot of time telling Brexit Party voters 'Boris is on the way' and it was a straight Tory v LD fight to get enough of them out to vote Tory
The problem is that momentum is moving to remain and there are an increasing number of voters who see the Lib Dems as the one party who have been consistent in wanting to stop brexit and voters from both the conservatives and labour are turning to them.
I also think that many labour voters now turning to the Lib Dems will be moving permanently as they turn their backs on the toxic leadership of the labour party
Boris is not even beating Hunt in the preferred PM stakes with voters and this weeks disasterous PR for Boris over the Ambassador shows he cannot think on his feet
He is not the Messiah and is a very long way from a majority
I believe HYUFD has a point that Brexit/Tories combined numbers are interchangeable either way. What I cannot factor into the equation is how many Tories would peel off and vote LD for one time only in order to see the back of Brexit and Johnsin before returning to the fold once the dust had settled.
The question is, would you do that, possibly saving your party for the longer term?
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
More Tory than with no Brexit
Wrong answer, they will vote specifically anti Tory, tactically voting for the closest challenger for many general elections to come.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
Disgraceful, how can any democrat support such behavior?
A democrat who respects the will of the people Parliament has so far refused to respect by voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal
The will of the people as expressed in the 2017 general election is that there should not be a No Deal Brexit.
But that there should be a Brexit.
Indeed - and a large majority in the country would support BINO. But the Tory right won’t. And as we know with the Tories party always comes before country.
The imbecility of the ERG is undoubted but how many non-Conservative MPs voted for the EU's own WDA ?
The WDA was drawn-up based on the May red lines. Take those away and you get a very different WDA - and one that sails through Parliament. Doing that, though, would have split the Tories. Therein lies the problem - party before country.
Bridlington North (East Riding of Yorkshire) result:
LDEM: 42.7% (+42.7) CON: 26.6% (-44.5) YORK: 11.4% (+11.4) UKIP: 6.4% (+6.4) LAB: 4.4% (-24.5) IND (Dixon): 4.1% (+4.1) IND (Robson): 2.5% (+2.5) IND (Milns): 1.9% (+1.9)
Liberal Democrat GAIN from Conservative.
Another former Brexit stronghold backing an overwhelmingly remain party.
It is time to recognise the wheels have come off the Brexit Bus with its lies and spin.
No deal will destroy jobs and industry but look on the bright side, Blue Passports.
Maybe it will and maybe it wont but Remainers have spread so many lies and scare stories that have been proved false that many people do not believe the risks claimed about No Deal are true.
Not so many people in Bridlington.
LibDems making imbecilic extrapolations from local council byelection results has been happening for decades.
Ignore the Local elections, European elections and polls at your peril, Tories.
Lib Dems have the wind in their sails while Tories are drifting to the rocks.
The Conservative party is not fit for purpose and time out of government is what they need though I doubt they would use it profitably.
Have been learning to suspend my disbelief in politics lately. However, the idea of prorogation, leading to an election during the period of maximum dislocation of No Deal is challenging to say the least.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
More Tory than with no Brexit
Are you seriously saying that those who actually lose their jobs due to no deal will on balance vote Tory in future than if we hadn’t left? Or are you saying the collateral damage to the Tory party of lost jobs is worth it if more people will continue to vote Tory?
Have been learning to suspend my disbelief in politics lately. However, the idea of prorogation, leading to an election during the period of maximum dislocation of No Deal is challenging to say the least.
It simply isn’t going to happen. If there is the slightest hint of it there will be a VONC in the Commons which the Tories will lose easily.
The Grieve amendment passed the other night makes prorougibg difficult as well.
Bridlington North (East Riding of Yorkshire) result:
LDEM: 42.7% (+42.7) CON: 26.6% (-44.5) YORK: 11.4% (+11.4) UKIP: 6.4% (+6.4) LAB: 4.4% (-24.5) IND (Dixon): 4.1% (+4.1) IND (Robson): 2.5% (+2.5) IND (Milns): 1.9% (+1.9)
Liberal Democrat GAIN from Conservative.
Even leave supporting pensioners are deserting the Tories...
Shocking result for the conservatives and labour
But this cannot be right, Hyufd tells us Boris is going to achieve a majority.
I warned him yesterday that Boris is no Messiah
Last night I was knocking up in Chigwell Row where the Tories held the seat 344 votes to 288 for the LDs in a parish council by elections and I spent a lot of time telling Brexit Party voters 'Boris is on the way' and it was a straight Tory v LD fight to get enough of them out to vote Tory
The problem is that momentum is moving to remain and there are an increasing number of voters who see the Lib Dems as the one party who have been consistent in wanting to stop brexit and voters from both the conservatives and labour are turning to them.
I also think that many labour voters now turning to the Lib Dems will be moving permanently as they turn their backs on the toxic leadership of the labour party
Boris is not even beating Hunt in the preferred PM stakes with voters and this weeks disasterous PR for Boris over the Ambassador shows he cannot think on his feet
He is not the Messiah and is a very long way from a majority
I believe HYUFD has a point that Brexit/Tories combined numbers are interchangeable either way. What I cannot factor into the equation is how many Tories would peel off and vote LD for one time only in order to see the back of Brexit and Johnsin before returning to the fold once the dust had settled.
The question is, would you do that, possibly saving your party for the longer term?
Yes
Now that is very interesting and a pissible game changer.
Have been learning to suspend my disbelief in politics lately. However, the idea of prorogation, leading to an election during the period of maximum dislocation of No Deal is challenging to say the least.
It simply isn’t going to happen. If there is the slightest hint of it there will be a VONC in the Commons which the Tories will lose easily.
But then what? You need a government to extend or revoke Article 50 to avoid a crash out. Is there enough MPs who will put country before party and participate in a Government of National Unity?
I wonder if Brexit is partly a result of our low levels of unemployment over the last twenty years. Politicians do not seem to value the quality of jobs available, and are reckless with the economy as they take near full employment for granted. It is far from guaranteed as most of Southern Europe could teach us.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
So I take it that you don’t personally think there is much short term downside to the U.K. from no deal? (long term effects either way being irrelevant to an election in, er, November.
And just to be clear, prorogue gets Parliament in late October will guarantee no deal, not your fantasy “deal or no deal Brexit”
Parliament has so far refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Boris voted for at MV3 so if it has to be No Deal to deliver Brexit so be it.
Having delivered Brexit even with No Deal and out of the EU orbit we can then start negotiating for a Canada style FTA with the EU and FTAs with the rest of the world until they are willing to do so
How seriously will other countries negotiate with a government in chaos and a suspended parliament?
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
Any attempt to do that will see a constitutional crisis and the end of the conservative party.
Last nights Lib Dem victory would turn into a national landslide for them
I wish I had your faith in my fellow electors. Maybe it is just my increasingly jaundiced mood, but I suspect that large numbers of voters would agree with closing down an institution they no longer value in order to 'get Brexit done'.
Of course, when the actual dire consequences of No Deal have become apparent, then Boris and what remains of the Conservative party will consigned to history.
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
More Tory than with no Brexit
Are you seriously saying that those who actually lose their jobs due to no deal will on balance vote Tory in future than if we hadn’t left? Or are you saying the collateral damage to the Tory party of lost jobs is worth it if more people will continue to vote Tory?
HYUFD has no interest in the future or prosperity of the country, just what (in his view) gives the best short-term advantage to the Tories. See also: Boris Johnson.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
So I take it that you don’t personally think there is much short term downside to the U.K. from no deal? (long term effects either way being irrelevant to an election in, er, November.
And just to be clear, prorogue gets Parliament in late October will guarantee no deal, not your fantasy “deal or no deal Brexit”
Parliament has so far refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Boris voted for at MV3 so if it has to be No Deal to deliver Brexit so be it.
Having delivered Brexit even with No Deal and out of the EU orbit we can then start negotiating for a Canada style FTA with the EU and FTAs with the rest of the world until they are willing to do so
How seriously will other countries negotiate with a government in chaos and a suspended parliament?
Have been learning to suspend my disbelief in politics lately. However, the idea of prorogation, leading to an election during the period of maximum dislocation of No Deal is challenging to say the least.
It simply isn’t going to happen. If there is the slightest hint of it there will be a VONC in the Commons which the Tories will lose easily.
But then what? You need a government to extend or revoke Article 50 to avoid a crash out. Is there enough MPs who will put country before party and participate in a Government of National Unity?
In those circumstances, yes I do. I would expect a GONU to apply for another A50 extension and call an election.
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
More Tory than with no Brexit
Are you seriously saying that those who actually lose their jobs due to no deal will on balance vote Tory in future than if we hadn’t left? Or are you saying the collateral damage to the Tory party of lost jobs is worth it if more people will continue to vote Tory?
HYUFD is saying he doesn’t care what happens to individuals, their families, their communities and the country, just as long as the Tories win. He supports a football team that plays in blue.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
Bridlington North (East Riding of Yorkshire) result:
LDEM: 42.7% (+42.7) CON: 26.6% (-44.5) YORK: 11.4% (+11.4) UKIP: 6.4% (+6.4) LAB: 4.4% (-24.5) IND (Dixon): 4.1% (+4.1) IND (Robson): 2.5% (+2.5) IND (Milns): 1.9% (+1.9)
Liberal Democrat GAIN from Conservative.
Even leave supporting pensioners are deserting the Tories...
Shocking result for the conservatives and labour
But this cannot be right, Hyufd tells us Boris is going to achieve a majority.
I warned him yesterday that Boris is no Messiah
Last night I was knocking up in Chigwell Row where the Tories held the seat 344 votes to 288 for the LDs in a parish council by elections and I spent a lot of time telling Brexit Party voters 'Boris is on the way' and it was a straight Tory v LD fight to get enough of them out to vote Tory
The problem is that momentum is moving to remain and there are an increasing number of voters who see the Lib Dems as the one party who have been consistent in wanting to stop brexit and voters from both the conservatives and labour are turning to them.
I also think that many labour voters now turning to the Lib Dems will be moving permanently as they turn their backs on the toxic leadership of the labour party
Boris is not even beating Hunt in the preferred PM stakes with voters and this weeks disasterous PR for Boris over the Ambassador shows he cannot think on his feet
He is not the Messiah and is a very long way from a majority
I believe HYUFD has a point that Brexit/Tories combined numbers are interchangeable either way. What I cannot factor into the equation is how many Tories would peel off and vote LD for one time only in order to see the back of Brexit and Johnsin before returning to the fold once the dust had settled.
The question is, would you do that, possibly saving your party for the longer term?
Yes
Now that is very interesting and a pissible game changer.
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
More Tory than with no Brexit
Are you seriously saying that those who actually lose their jobs due to no deal will on balance vote Tory in future than if we hadn’t left? Or are you saying the collateral damage to the Tory party of lost jobs is worth it if more people will continue to vote Tory?
HYUFD is saying he doesn’t care what happens to individuals, their families, their communities and the country, just as long as the Tories win. He supports a football team that plays in blue.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
Disgraceful, how can any democrat support such behavior?
A democrat who respects the will of the people Parliament has so far refused to respect by voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal
The will of the people as expressed in the 2017 general election is that there should not be a No Deal Brexit.
But that there should be a Brexit.
Indeed - and a large majority in the country would support BINO. But the Tory right won’t. And as we know with the Tories party always comes before country.
The imbecility of the ERG is undoubted but how many non-Conservative MPs voted for the EU's own WDA ?
The WDA was drawn-up based on the May red lines. Take those away and you get a very different WDA - and one that sails through Parliament. Doing that, though, would have split the Tories. Therein lies the problem - party before country.
I doubt it.
Labour are opposed to the WDA because they want to oppose it.
The WDA was drawn-up based on the May red lines. Take those away and you get a very different WDA - and one that sails through Parliament. Doing that, though, would have split the Tories. Therein lies the problem - party before country.
The WDA has nothing to do with the red lines. The backstop drives a coach and horses through them which is why it wasn't backed. The WDA was closer to Labour's lines than Tory ones even including a customs union for transition as well as the backstop.
The real party before country people were those who backed what was proposed privately but voted against to defeat the Tories.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
Disgraceful, how can any democrat support such behavior?
A democrat who respects the will of the people Parliament has so far refused to respect by voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal
The will of the people as expressed in the 2017 general election is that there should not be a No Deal Brexit.
But that there should be a Brexit.
Indeed - and a large majority in the country would support BINO. But the Tory right won’t. And as we know with the Tories party always comes before country.
The imbecility of the ERG is undoubted but how many non-Conservative MPs voted for the EU's own WDA ?
The WDA was drawn-up based on the May red lines. Take those away and you get a very different WDA - and one that sails through Parliament. Doing that, though, would have split the Tories. Therein lies the problem - party before country.
I doubt it.
Labour are opposed to the WDA because they want to oppose it.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
So I take it that you don’t personally think there is much short term downside to the U.K. from no deal? (long term effects either way being irrelevant to an election in, er, November.
And just to be clear, prorogue gets Parliament in late October will guarantee no deal, not your fantasy “deal or no deal Brexit”
Parliament has so far refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Boris voted for at MV3 so if it has to be No Deal to deliver Brexit so be it.
Having delivered Brexit even with No Deal and out of the EU orbit we can then start negotiating for a Canada style FTA with the EU and FTAs with the rest of the world until they are willing to do so
How seriously will other countries negotiate with a government in chaos and a suspended parliament?
Parliament can be unsuspended 1 November.
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
So I take it that you don’t personally think there is much short term downside to the U.K. from no deal? (long term effects either way being irrelevant to an election in, er, November.
And just to be clear, prorogue gets Parliament in late October will guarantee no deal, not your fantasy “deal or no deal Brexit”
Parliament has so far refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Boris voted for at MV3 so if it has to be No Deal to deliver Brexit so be it.
Having delivered Brexit even with No Deal and out of the EU orbit we can then start negotiating for a Canada style FTA with the EU and FTAs with the rest of the world until they are willing to do so
How seriously will other countries negotiate with a government in chaos and a suspended parliament?
Parliament can be unsuspended 1 November.
You guys are really unhinged.
No your doommongering and believe the who world is going to fall apart leading to catastrophe is unhinged.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
Disgraceful, how can any democrat support such behavior?
A democrat who respects the will of the people Parliament has so far refused to respect by voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal
The will of the people as expressed in the 2017 general election is that there should not be a No Deal Brexit.
But that there should be a Brexit.
Indeed - and a large majority in the country would support BINO. But the Tory right won’t. And as we know with the Tories party always comes before country.
The imbecility of the ERG is undoubted but how many non-Conservative MPs voted for the EU's own WDA ?
The WDA was drawn-up based on the May red lines. Take those away and you get a very different WDA - and one that sails through Parliament. Doing that, though, would have split the Tories. Therein lies the problem - party before country.
I doubt it.
Labour are opposed to the WDA because they want to oppose it.
Labour has no meaningful control over its MPs when it comes to Brexit. The leadership supports Brexit. A BINO exit leaving everything open would have been fine with the vast majority of Labour MPs.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
So I take it that you don’t personally think there is much short term downside to the U.K. from no deal? (long term effects either way being irrelevant to an election in, er, November.
And just to be clear, prorogue gets Parliament in late October will guarantee no deal, not your fantasy “deal or no deal Brexit”
Parliament has so far refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Boris voted for at MV3 so if it has to be No Deal to deliver Brexit so be it.
Having delivered Brexit even with No Deal and out of the EU orbit we can then start negotiating for a Canada style FTA with the EU and FTAs with the rest of the world until they are willing to do so
How seriously will other countries negotiate with a government in chaos and a suspended parliament?
Parliament can be unsuspended 1 November.
You guys are really unhinged.
No your doommongering and believe the who world is going to fall apart leading to catastrophe is unhinged.
Bridlington North (East Riding of Yorkshire) result:
LDEM: 42.7% (+42.7) CON: 26.6% (-44.5) YORK: 11.4% (+11.4) UKIP: 6.4% (+6.4) LAB: 4.4% (-24.5) IND (Dixon): 4.1% (+4.1) IND (Robson): 2.5% (+2.5) IND (Milns): 1.9% (+1.9)
Liberal Democrat GAIN from Conservative.
Even leave supporting pensioners are deserting the Tories...
Shocking result for the conservatives and labour
But this cannot be right, Hyufd tells us Boris is going to achieve a majority.
I warned him yesterday that Boris is no Messiah
Last night I was knocking up in Chigwell Row where the Tories held the seat 344 votes to 288 for the LDs in a parish council by elections and I spent a lot of time telling Brexit Party voters 'Boris is on the way' and it was a straight Tory v LD fight to get enough of them out to vote Tory
The problem is that momentum is moving to remain and there are an increasing number of voters who see the Lib Dems as the one party who have been consistent in wanting to stop brexit and voters from both the conservatives and labour are turning to them.
I also think that many labour voters now turning to the Lib Dems will be moving permanently as they turn their backs on the toxic leadership of the labour party
Boris is not even beating Hunt in the preferred PM stakes with voters and this weeks disasterous PR for Boris over the Ambassador shows he cannot think on his feet
He is not the Messiah and is a very long way from a majority
I believe HYUFD has a point that Brexit/Tories combined numbers are interchangeable either way. What I cannot factor into the equation is how many Tories would peel off and vote LD for one time only in order to see the back of Brexit and Johnsin before returning to the fold once the dust had settled.
The question is, would you do that, possibly saving your party for the longer term?
Yes
Now that is very interesting and a pissible game changer.
Sure that is a spelling mistake !!!!
Fat fingers on a smartphone I think, although who knows my thought processes at my time of life?
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
So I take it that you don’t personally think there is much short term downside to the U.K. from no deal? (long term effects either way being irrelevant to an election in, er, November.
And just to be clear, prorogue gets Parliament in late October will guarantee no deal, not your fantasy “deal or no deal Brexit”
Parliament has so far refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Boris voted for at MV3 so if it has to be No Deal to deliver Brexit so be it.
Having delivered Brexit even with No Deal and out of the EU orbit we can then start negotiating for a Canada style FTA with the EU and FTAs with the rest of the world until they are willing to do so
You'll be waiting a very long time. Meanwhile the Tories will be toast.
Labour has no meaningful control over its MPs when it comes to Brexit. The leadership supports Brexit. A BINO exit leaving everything open would have been fine with the vast majority of Labour MPs.
There is no doubt that the ERG gave cover to Lab MPs who wanted to score a political point in voting against the Tories/WA. That I am fully on board with and I despise the ERG for it. Had the ERG rowed in behind the WA it would have passed.
But each Lab MP nevertheless voted against the WA/Brexit. That is also incontrovertible. They voted against a "BINO exit leaving everything open". So they saw an angle to bring down the Cons and exploited it and as we are all here talking about a GE who's to say, on that basis, they were wrong.
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There won't be a coup. And since your unhinged bullshit about death and destruction if we leave won't actually happen there will be no mess to sort out. Life will move on. Because we work with realities not the unhinged ravings of petrified Remainers.
"I was pissing by the window when I heard two large shats." [points at the captain, who is holding a gun] "You are clearly the guilty potty. Come with moo."
The WDA was drawn-up based on the May red lines. Take those away and you get a very different WDA - and one that sails through Parliament. Doing that, though, would have split the Tories. Therein lies the problem - party before country.
The WDA has nothing to do with the red lines. The backstop drives a coach and horses through them which is why it wasn't backed. The WDA was closer to Labour's lines than Tory ones even including a customs union for transition as well as the backstop.
The real party before country people were those who backed what was proposed privately but voted against to defeat the Tories.
It had everything to do with the red lines. They underpinned the entire negotiation process. The WDA is time-limited, hence the backstop. With BINO there would have been no need to even think about the Irish border.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
You’ll change your mind once HYUFD has knocked on your door.
Labour has no meaningful control over its MPs when it comes to Brexit. The leadership supports Brexit. A BINO exit leaving everything open would have been fine with the vast majority of Labour MPs.
There is no doubt that the ERG gave cover to Lab MPs who wanted to score a political point in voting against the Tories/WA. That I am fully on board with and I despise the ERG for it. Had the ERG rowed in behind the WA it would have passed.
But each Lab MP nevertheless voted against the WA/Brexit. That is also incontrovertible. They voted against a "BINO exit leaving everything open". So they saw an angle to bring down the Cons and exploited it and as we are all here talking about a GE who's to say, on that basis, they were wrong.
Fucks the country, meanwhile, but hey ho.
I am not going to defend Labour MPs. As I’ve said before, very reluctantly I backed May’s Deal. I merely observe that the red lines - and the rhetoric that accompanied them - underpinned the entire process, led to a time-limited WDA and meant the NI border became an issue when it did not need to be. Positions became entrenched because of the position the UK took at the outset.
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
More Tory than with no Brexit
Are you seriously saying that those who actually lose their jobs due to no deal will on balance vote Tory in future than if we hadn’t left? Or are you saying the collateral damage to the Tory party of lost jobs is worth it if more people will continue to vote Tory?
HYUFD is saying he doesn’t care what happens to individuals, their families, their communities and the country, just as long as the Tories win. He supports a football team that plays in blue.
...and this reckless irresponsibility is turning off even Tory lifers. After Bridlington *Bridlington!!!* last night and the Euro results, the idea that the Tory heartlands could swing en bloc to the Liberal Democrats is now looking not merely possible, it is actually happening..
"You did not see graphite... BECAUSE ITS NOT THERE"
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
Disgraceful, how can any democrat support such behavior?
A democrat who respects the will of the people Parliament has so far refused to respect by voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal
The will of the people as expressed in the 2017 general election is that there should not be a No Deal Brexit.
But that there should be a Brexit.
Indeed - and a large majority in the country would support BINO. But the Tory right won’t. And as we know with the Tories party always comes before country.
Most people in the country actually want a Canada style FTA with the EU, not BINO. That is supported by +20% with ICM compared to just 7% for Norway style EEA
"A key vote that paves the way for MPs to block a no-deal Brexit was seemingly lost because a Tory whip forgot to vote. Just one single vote was enough for the vote on Dominic Grieve’s amendment to pass on Monday night, which MPs are hoping will ultimately stop the next Prime Minister suspending parliament so Britain can exit the EU without a deal.
Jo Churchill, the MP for Bury St Edmunds does not appear on the division lists for the vote - with colleagues saying she had forgotten to vote. Ms Churchill had been acting as a proxy for Norwich North MP Chloe Smith and it is presumed that she forgot to cast her own vote alongside.
Pictures from the chamber show Ms Churchill reacting in horror as the result of the vote was announced.
Labour has no meaningful control over its MPs when it comes to Brexit. The leadership supports Brexit. A BINO exit leaving everything open would have been fine with the vast majority of Labour MPs.
There is no doubt that the ERG gave cover to Lab MPs who wanted to score a political point in voting against the Tories/WA. That I am fully on board with and I despise the ERG for it. Had the ERG rowed in behind the WA it would have passed.
But each Lab MP nevertheless voted against the WA/Brexit. That is also incontrovertible. They voted against a "BINO exit leaving everything open". So they saw an angle to bring down the Cons and exploited it and as we are all here talking about a GE who's to say, on that basis, they were wrong.
Fucks the country, meanwhile, but hey ho.
I have sympathy with leavers in that (nearly) all MPs have behaved badly and tactically. Labour leavers should have got onside despite Mays rudeness in ignoring them until too late. Labour leadership has been weak and ineffectual. Change UK and the LDs should have found something to vote for in the indicative votes rather than risking no deal. The govt should have reached out earlier to all MPs.
But special ire must surely be reserved for those who have spent 30 years doing nothing but telling us to leave the EU, then trashing the WA and repeatedly voting against it.
Mr. Gate, I do think it's legitimate to point that MPs have to decide what they want. It's delinquent for them to overtly agree to leave, then oppose a deal, then oppose no deal.
The Commons has three options and a majority appears to oppose all of them. MPs need to decide what they want.
The WDA was drawn-up based on the May red lines. Take those away and you get a very different WDA - and one that sails through Parliament. Doing that, though, would have split the Tories. Therein lies the problem - party before country.
The WDA has nothing to do with the red lines. The backstop drives a coach and horses through them which is why it wasn't backed. The WDA was closer to Labour's lines than Tory ones even including a customs union for transition as well as the backstop.
The real party before country people were those who backed what was proposed privately but voted against to defeat the Tories.
It had everything to do with the red lines. They underpinned the entire negotiation process. The WDA is time-limited, hence the backstop. With BINO there would have been no need to even think about the Irish border.
This I think is pin head dancing. The WA was entirely reasonable as was a time limit and if, when it ran out, nothing had been negotiated then voila! BINO give or take a few of the things that got the back up of the idiot loonier leavers.
Mr. Gate, I do think it's legitimate to point that MPs have to decide what they want. It's delinquent for them to overtly agree to leave, then oppose a deal, then oppose no deal.
The Commons has three options and a majority appears to oppose all of them. MPs need to decide what they want.
I don’t disagree. But suspending the legislature is not the solution.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
So I take it that you don’t personally think there is much short term downside to the U.K. from no deal? (long term effects either way being irrelevant to an election in, er, November.
And just to be clear, prorogue gets Parliament in late October will guarantee no deal, not your fantasy “deal or no deal Brexit”
Parliament has so far refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Boris voted for at MV3 so if it has to be No Deal to deliver Brexit so be it.
Having delivered Brexit even with No Deal and out of the EU orbit we can then start negotiating for a Canada style FTA with the EU and FTAs with the rest of the world until they are willing to do so
How seriously will other countries negotiate with a government in chaos and a suspended parliament?
Parliament can be unsuspended 1 November.
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
BiB - If a GoNU was on the cards, surely it would happen before prorogation.
The conviction was appalling. There was no enrichment. A case of bad judgement from the MP and a strong telling off. Causing a by-election is utterly ridiculous.
There was enrichment because he should have paid the overspend out of his own pocket. He chose to instead falsify two invoices so he could pas the overspend onto a different budget line. In fact to have done this rather than pay a few hundred pounds from his own pocket shows how stupid he is. Don’t try and spin this as an accounting error it was not it was FRAUD.
There was no overspend and hence there was no enrichment. He could have claimed the entire amount from the Office Costs budget which had more than enough remaining to cover it. Or he could have got the photographer to create two invoices, one for the Office Costs budget and one for the Start Up budget. This was not fraud as is clear from the fact that he was not charged with fraud. He was convicted under the Section 10 of the Parliamentary Standards Act which is a much less serious offence.
The conviction was not appalling. If he had been convicted of fraud that would have been wrong on the facts. But he was correctly convicted on one count of providing false or misleading information for allowances claims and one count of attempting to do so.
He fiddled his expenses after his drafted in office assistant pointed out he had overspent on pictures/photographs and he would have to pay up the difference. He decided to spread the cost and forged receipts to pass it off on another budget line to avoid paying it out of his own pocket.
Go and read the BBC article. He would NOT have had to pay up the difference. He was entitled to claim the full amount from the Office Costs budget. He was entitled to spread the costs across the two budgets by getting the photographer to submit two invoices, one for each budget. If he had gone down either path he would have been refunded the full amount and would not have committed an offence. He would not have had to pay a single penny out of his own pocket.
The judge, in his sentencing remarks, was quite clear that Davies was entitled to reclaim the full amount spent on photographs. The judge also specifically stated that his actions, "would not benefit you financially because they amounted to the sum which you had actually agreed to pay and the money was in fact paid" and that his actins would not enrich him. So you are saying that the judge was wrong. I would suggest that the judge is far more likely to be right than you.
One interesting thing from the Berger interview, ruled out joining the Lib Dems as she would not be prepared to countenance supply & confidence to a Corbyn led Gov't and they (The Lib Dems) haven't ruled it out.
This s&c question needs to be a question put to Swinson and Davey.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
Disgraceful, how can any democrat support such behavior?
A democrat who respects the will of the people Parliament has so far refused to respect by voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal
The will of the people as expressed in the 2017 general election is that there should not be a No Deal Brexit.
But that there should be a Brexit.
Indeed - and a large majority in the country would support BINO. But the Tory right won’t. And as we know with the Tories party always comes before country.
Most people in the country actually want a Canada style FTA with the EU, not BINO. That is supported by +20% with ICM compared to just 7% for Norway style EEA
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
More Tory than with no Brexit
Are you seriously saying that those who actually lose their jobs due to no deal will on balance vote Tory in future than if we hadn’t left? Or are you saying the collateral damage to the Tory party of lost jobs is worth it if more people will continue to vote Tory?
HYUFD is saying he doesn’t care what happens to individuals, their families, their communities and the country, just as long as the Tories win. He supports a football team that plays in blue.
...and this reckless irresponsibility is turning off even Tory lifers. After Bridlington *Bridlington!!!* last night and the Euro results, the idea that the Tory heartlands could swing en bloc to the Liberal Democrats is now looking not merely possible, it is actually happening..
"You did not see graphite... BECAUSE ITS NOT THERE"
Tim.Farron would be PM now if we went on 2017 local council by election results
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There won't be a coup. And since your unhinged bullshit about death and destruction if we leave won't actually happen there will be no mess to sort out. Life will move on. Because we work with realities not the unhinged ravings of petrified Remainers.
OK again, lets play out your fantasy. Everything would be hunky dory. But you reinstated parliament on 1 Oct and it is full of petrified remainers who believe there has been a coup. They are sovereign and decide what will happen. What do you think they will do, just let Boris bumble on? It is beyond delusion.
One interesting thing from the Berger interview, ruled out joining the Lib Dems as she would not be prepared to countenance supply & confidence to a Corbyn led Gov't and they (The Lib Dems) haven't ruled it out.
This s&c question needs to be a question put to Swinson and Davey.
The WDA was drawn-up based on the May red lines. Take those away and you get a very different WDA - and one that sails through Parliament. Doing that, though, would have split the Tories. Therein lies the problem - party before country.
The WDA has nothing to do with the red lines. The backstop drives a coach and horses through them which is why it wasn't backed. The WDA was closer to Labour's lines than Tory ones even including a customs union for transition as well as the backstop.
The real party before country people were those who backed what was proposed privately but voted against to defeat the Tories.
It had everything to do with the red lines. They underpinned the entire negotiation process. The WDA is time-limited, hence the backstop. With BINO there would have been no need to even think about the Irish border.
This I think is pin head dancing. The WA was entirely reasonable as was a time limit and if, when it ran out, nothing had been negotiated then voila! BINO give or take a few of the things that got the back up of the idiot loonier leavers.
When it ran out we would be in hard Brexit land - inside the CU, outside the SM. As I say, I very reluctantly backed it, but it was nowhere close to BINO.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
Disgraceful, how can any democrat support such behavior?
A democrat who respects the will of the people Parliament has so far refused to respect by voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal
No deal is not the will of the people. The referendum was won with "we hold all the cards".
And the Conservative party now countenances suspending democracy. It is mindblowing how fast Britain's civic structures are disintegrating.
Thorne Travel Experience, based in Ardrossan, North Ayrshire, has planned an overnight shopping trip in November billed as the "perfect time to grab your Christmas bargains".
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
More Tory than with no Brexit
Are you seriously saying that those who actually lose their jobs due to no deal will on balance vote Tory in future than if we hadn’t left? Or are you saying the collateral damage to the Tory party of lost jobs is worth it if more people will continue to vote Tory?
HYUFD is saying he doesn’t care what happens to individuals, their families, their communities and the country, just as long as the Tories win. He supports a football team that plays in blue.
Jennie Formby is attacking Tom Watson for his criticism of her following the Panorama programme as she is undergoing chemotheraphy.
Really sad that she is using personal health to deflect from addressing the serious issues labour are facing
Note that she uses her health to try and deflect criticism but shows no interest in or concern for the health of those junior staff working for the party. Nor does she criticise those who have attacked those staff suffering mental health problems as a result of the culture she presided over.
The WDA was drawn-up based on the May red lines. Take those away and you get a very different WDA - and one that sails through Parliament. Doing that, though, would have split the Tories. Therein lies the problem - party before country.
The WDA has nothing to do with the red lines. The backstop drives a coach and horses through them which is why it wasn't backed. The WDA was closer to Labour's lines than Tory ones even including a customs union for transition as well as the backstop.
The real party before country people were those who backed what was proposed privately but voted against to defeat the Tories.
It had everything to do with the red lines. They underpinned the entire negotiation process. The WDA is time-limited, hence the backstop. With BINO there would have been no need to even think about the Irish border.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
So I take it that you don’t personally think there is much short term downside to the U.K. from no deal? (long term effects either way being irrelevant to an election in, er, November.
And just to be clear, prorogue gets Parliament in late October will guarantee no deal, not your fantasy “deal or no deal Brexit”
Parliament has so far refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Boris voted for at MV3 so if it has to be No Deal to deliver Brexit so be it.
Having delivered Brexit even with No Deal and out of the EU orbit we can then start negotiating for a Canada style FTA with the EU and FTAs with the rest of the world until they are willing to do so
How seriously will other countries negotiate with a government in chaos and a suspended parliament?
Parliament can be unsuspended 1 November.
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
BiB - If a GoNU was on the cards, surely it would happen before prorogation.
Agree that is far more likely. I am trying to get the no dealers to think through the consequences of their actions and beyond "getting Brexit done".
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
That is not a attitude that gets a party into government
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
Disgraceful, how can any democrat support such behavior?
A democrat who respects the will of the people Parliament has so far refused to respect by voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal
No deal is not the will of the people. The referendum was won with "we hold all the cards".
And the Conservative party now countenances suspending democracy. It is mindblowing how fast Britain's civic structures are disintegrating.
The referendum was won on the promise of controlling our borders and regaining sovereignty, a Canada style FTA with the EU achieves that, BINO does not, if it requires a temporary No Deal to get there then so be it
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
Disgraceful, how can any democrat support such behavior?
A democrat who respects the will of the people Parliament has so far refused to respect by voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal
No deal is not the will of the people. The referendum was won with "we hold all the cards".
And the Conservative party now countenances suspending democracy. It is mindblowing how fast Britain's civic structures are disintegrating.
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There won't be a coup. And since your unhinged bullshit about death and destruction if we leave won't actually happen there will be no mess to sort out. Life will move on. Because we work with realities not the unhinged ravings of petrified Remainers.
OK again, lets play out your fantasy. Everything would be hunky dory. But you reinstated parliament on 1 Oct and it is full of petrified remainers who believe there has been a coup. They are sovereign and decide what will happen. What do you think they will do, just let Boris bumble on? It is beyond delusion.
Indeed the very first act of a reinstated Parliament would be a VONC in the Government that had suspended it.
Proroging Parliament and ruling by decree is a very dangerous precedent to set, when the leader of the opposition is Jeremy Corbyn.
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
More Tory than with no Brexit
Are you seriously saying that those who actually lose their jobs due to no deal will on balance vote Tory in future than if we hadn’t left? Or are you saying the collateral damage to the Tory party of lost jobs is worth it if more people will continue to vote Tory?
HYUFD is saying he doesn’t care what happens to individuals, their families, their communities and the country, just as long as the Tories win. He supports a football team that plays in blue.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
That is not a attitude that gets a party into government
It is when the Tories are losing 2 to 3 voters to the Brexit Party for every 1 voter they lose to the LDs
The WDA was drawn-up based on the May red lines. Take those away and you get a very different WDA - and one that sails through Parliament. Doing that, though, would have split the Tories. Therein lies the problem - party before country.
The WDA has nothing to do with the red lines. The backstop drives a coach and horses through them which is why it wasn't backed. The WDA was closer to Labour's lines than Tory ones even including a customs union for transition as well as the backstop.
The real party before country people were those who backed what was proposed privately but voted against to defeat the Tories.
It had everything to do with the red lines. They underpinned the entire negotiation process. The WDA is time-limited, hence the backstop. With BINO there would have been no need to even think about the Irish border.
BINO isn't a compromise it's a fraud.
The WDA is a massive compromise.
Agreed, Remainers could have backed the WDA, most refused so if it is No Deal so be it
The WDA was drawn-up based on the May red lines. Take those away and you get a very different WDA - and one that sails through Parliament. Doing that, though, would have split the Tories. Therein lies the problem - party before country.
The WDA has nothing to do with the red lines. The backstop drives a coach and horses through them which is why it wasn't backed. The WDA was closer to Labour's lines than Tory ones even including a customs union for transition as well as the backstop.
The real party before country people were those who backed what was proposed privately but voted against to defeat the Tories.
It had everything to do with the red lines. They underpinned the entire negotiation process. The WDA is time-limited, hence the backstop. With BINO there would have been no need to even think about the Irish border.
This I think is pin head dancing. The WA was entirely reasonable as was a time limit and if, when it ran out, nothing had been negotiated then voila! BINO give or take a few of the things that got the back up of the idiot loonier leavers.
When it ran out we would be in hard Brexit land - inside the CU, outside the SM. As I say, I very reluctantly backed it, but it was nowhere close to BINO.
I'm sure we could have negotiated some kind of extension. But you are right, the exited state was not BINO but, given that the country had just voted to B I think that is about fair enough.
I wonder how many Tory MPs would vote for a General Election in the immediate aftermath of a no deal exit? Johnson might struggle to pass it even with Labour votes!
Brexit will have been delivered which is the main task for Boris
How do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who lose their jobs as a result of this nonsense will vote for the next decade or two?
Is the hundreds of thousands that were to lose their jobs on the basis of the same models you place such reliance in immediately after the vote or the million+ who have gained employment since then or the hundreds of thousands of unfilled vacancies in our economy at present or some other hundreds of thousands? Its getting a little difficult to keep track.
Jennie Formby is attacking Tom Watson for his criticism of her following the Panorama programme as she is undergoing chemotheraphy.
Really sad that she is using personal health to deflect from addressing the serious issues labour are facing
While I have sympathy with someone facing health problems, she does seem strangely able to respond to attacks which were a disgrace as she wouldn't be able to respond to them...
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Whatever the result is leavers and sanity are mutually exclusive.
Marc Francois just now on sky shooting down a government minister for telling the country that many thousands of jobs are at risk if no deal him ‘he’s a remainer.......I’m going to stay up all night on 31/10 to watch the new dawn breaking on our free country’ delusional. I have just had to delete my opinion of him as I don’t use language like that.
I watched that and despaired.
He and other ERG members are going to be very angry when the HOC and public opinion rejects his extreme no deal armageddon
If we dont leave (and the choices now seem to be no deal or remain) he will assume the public will be so angry about it, and many millions will. But a remain party will probably win an election as the tories fall to pieces, so it'll be odd that he will no doubt insist the majority want no deal
From what I now understand the Boris team will prorogue Parliament in late October to force through Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st if necessary as a last resort and prepare for a November general election shortly after to then get a confirmatory mandate for it having delivered Brexit
Disgraceful, how can any democrat support such behavior?
A democrat who respects the will of the people Parliament has so far refused to respect by voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal
The will of the people as expressed in the 2017 general election is that there should not be a No Deal Brexit.
But that there should be a Brexit.
Indeed - and a large majority in the country would support BINO. But the Tory right won’t. And as we know with the Tories party always comes before country.
Most people in the country actually want a Canada style FTA with the EU, not BINO. That is supported by +20% with ICM compared to just 7% for Norway style EEA
66% take BINO as their first or second option.
More people support a Canada style FTA than support BINO overall, +20% for Canada style FTA to +7% for Norway EEA
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
As a Remainer you are the one who should be voting LD.
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
As a Remainer you are the one who should be voting LD.
I respect democracy, I do not want to stop Brexit unlike the LDs
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There won't be a coup. And since your unhinged bullshit about death and destruction if we leave won't actually happen there will be no mess to sort out. Life will move on. Because we work with realities not the unhinged ravings of petrified Remainers.
OK again, lets play out your fantasy. Everything would be hunky dory. But you reinstated parliament on 1 Oct and it is full of petrified remainers who believe there has been a coup. They are sovereign and decide what will happen. What do you think they will do, just let Boris bumble on? It is beyond delusion.
It will be over. The sky won't have fallen.
If there is a General Election then the Lib Dems will be campaigning to say we must rejoin the EU. The Tories will be saying we have honoured the referendum and left. The Brexit Party will be defunct. Labour will be saying For The Many, Not The Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
That is not a attitude that gets a party into government
HYUFD has become indoctrinated every bit as much as a Corbynista and is attempting to drive many conservatives out of the party in pursuit of Brexit purity
The Conservatives' message is essentially "better a convict than a Remainer". It'll be a good test of just how monomaniac Leavers are.
Locally. Which I appreciate is the topic under discussion.
Nationally it will be better anyone even a lying incompetent twat than Jeremy Corbyn. And it will have traction.
Maybe, however many will regard Johnson's duplicity as even more unacceptable than Corbyn's ideologically driven ineptitude. It is the perfect 'between a rock and a hard place' dilemma.
And as to Ydoethur's earlier assertion that Ystradgynlais may be a hotbed of Faragistas, I am not convinced. It has a welsh language comprehensive school for goodness sake! Notional Labourites if they don't stay will go PC or LD, and for this by-election they will almost all go LD.
Agree. But for me and I suspect many others, to vote for anti-semite Corbyn would be, to use I suppose the appropriate term, beyond the pale.
Likewise, and I am of the faith, although under Corbyn very much lapsed. But Johnson personifies everything I detest about entitled Tories.
The dilema for many in an extreme political crisis will be between loyalty to party and best for the country. For many tens of thousands conservative and labour supporters the only choice would be the Lib Dems, as an extreme ERG led conservative party or the toxic Corbyn led labour party, would make the choice easy
I will not be voting Conservative at the next General Election for the first time since the 1987 election when I voted SDP. That is 7 GEs I have voted Conservative out of 8 in my adult life. I will not give support to a lying charlatan with zero genuine leadership skills, that thinks it is OK to damage the UK economy in pursuit of a puerile nationalist agenda to appease the politically and intellectually retarded.
The LDs are welcome to you
I will be keeping my membership to help rebuild the party when the retards and fuckwits leave when their slow judgement causes them to eventually realise what only a moron would not realise immediately: Boris is a fraud. Oh sorry that includes you!
Lets play out this ridiculous fantasy - What do you think its first actions would be?
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
There won't be a coup. And since your unhinged bullshit about death and destruction if we leave won't actually happen there will be no mess to sort out. Life will move on. Because we work with realities not the unhinged ravings of petrified Remainers.
OK again, lets play out your fantasy. Everything would be hunky dory. But you reinstated parliament on 1 Oct and it is full of petrified remainers who believe there has been a coup. They are sovereign and decide what will happen. What do you think they will do, just let Boris bumble on? It is beyond delusion.
It will be over. The sky won't have fallen.
If there is a General Election then the Lib Dems will be campaigning to say we must rejoin the EU. The Tories will be saying we have honoured the referendum and left. The Brexit Party will be defunct. Labour will be saying For The Many, Not The Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
And there will be no more Parliamentary democracy because Prime Ministers will have licence to rule by fiat whenever they decide that Parliament is disobliging.
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Who do you think is on the side of democracy and who is not?
That said, MPs have not covered themselves in glory. Nobody compelled them to vote through confirmation of the referendum, nor to repeatedly oppose the deal, then to oppose no deal, yet refuse to actually try and get us to stay in.
The same three options (deal withdrawal, no deal withdrawal, remain) are still the only ways things will proceed. Proroguing would be a foolish, dangerous precedent, but it wouldn't make much real difference to the decision-making if MPs can't actually decide on a positive course of action. It would just move their indecision out of the Commons.
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
Not suspending democracy. Just suspending MPs who have already passed the relevant laws required.
That's suspending democracy as it is practised in this country. Anti-democrats are now entering the mainstream of the Conservative party. Britain's civic structures are under assault. This is no longer about Leave or Remain. It is about whether you are a democrat or not.
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
Democracy is practised in this country at elections and increasingly in referenda too. Prorogations happen every single year as standard.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?
Why have Parliament ever sitting again? Clearly all laws that have been passed should never be amended again.
Comments
Lib Dems have the wind in their sails while Tories are drifting to the rocks.
The question is, would you do that, possibly saving your party for the longer term?
Out of interest, is there any polling breaking down Boris vs Hunt by geography, demographic, NRS social grade etc.? It would be very useful for future predictions to know where Boris isn't cutting through.
The Grieve amendment passed the other night makes prorougibg difficult as well.
Of course, when the actual dire consequences of No Deal have become apparent, then Boris and what remains of the Conservative party will consigned to history.
Labour are opposed to the WDA because they want to oppose it.
The real party before country people were those who backed what was proposed privately but voted against to defeat the Tories.
Certainty - removal of the leaders of the coup from office
Probable - govt of unity established led by senior non Corbyn labour figure to fix the mess and get something approaching WA quickly agreed by EU
If not that - general election which could result in a Marxist majority.
How different the world would be if Brexiteers played chess and could think more than one or two moves ahead.
If this was the Labour Party you’d be up in arms.
Labour, to all intents and purposes, is also a Remain party.
My bet on this one is Con hold at a big price that I think is just too big.
But each Lab MP nevertheless voted against the WA/Brexit. That is also incontrovertible. They voted against a "BINO exit leaving everything open". So they saw an angle to bring down the Cons and exploited it and as we are all here talking about a GE who's to say, on that basis, they were wrong.
Fucks the country, meanwhile, but hey ho.
[points at the captain, who is holding a gun]
"You are clearly the guilty potty. Come with moo."
"You did not see graphite... BECAUSE ITS NOT THERE"
That is supported by +20% with ICM compared to just 7% for Norway style EEA
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/libleave_brexit_spectrum.html
But special ire must surely be reserved for those who have spent 30 years doing nothing but telling us to leave the EU, then trashing the WA and repeatedly voting against it.
The Commons has three options and a majority appears to oppose all of them. MPs need to decide what they want.
The judge, in his sentencing remarks, was quite clear that Davies was entitled to reclaim the full amount spent on photographs. The judge also specifically stated that his actions, "would not benefit you financially because they amounted to the sum which you had actually agreed to pay and the money was in fact paid" and that his actins would not enrich him. So you are saying that the judge was wrong. I would suggest that the judge is far more likely to be right than you.
This s&c question needs to be a question put to Swinson and Davey.
Mr. Pulpstar, a good question indeed.
Biden 26
Warren 19
Harris/Sanders 13
And the Conservative party now countenances suspending democracy. It is mindblowing how fast Britain's civic structures are disintegrating.
The world's biggest Primark, covering 161,000 sq ft over five floors, opened its doors in Birmingham city centre in April.
Travel firms said a shopping trip to the West Midlands had been one of their most popular attractions of the year.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-48950868
An exciting opportunity for PB's MalcolmG:
Thorne Travel Experience, based in Ardrossan, North Ayrshire, has planned an overnight shopping trip in November billed as the "perfect time to grab your Christmas bargains".
Despicable.
The WDA is a massive compromise.
Proroging Parliament and ruling by decree is a very dangerous precedent to set, when the leader of the opposition is Jeremy Corbyn.
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/libleave_brexit_spectrum.html
Far too many Leavers prefer seeing their goals achieved to democracy. It is one more staging post on the spiral down of this country.
The other 30% are mostly not working and receive their incomes directly from the govt!
If there is a General Election then the Lib Dems will be campaigning to say we must rejoin the EU. The Tories will be saying we have honoured the referendum and left. The Brexit Party will be defunct. Labour will be saying For The Many, Not The Jew.
There will be no more Remainers or Leavers since there will be nothing left for us to remain in.
It is sad and will only end in tears
That said, MPs have not covered themselves in glory. Nobody compelled them to vote through confirmation of the referendum, nor to repeatedly oppose the deal, then to oppose no deal, yet refuse to actually try and get us to stay in.
The same three options (deal withdrawal, no deal withdrawal, remain) are still the only ways things will proceed. Proroguing would be a foolish, dangerous precedent, but it wouldn't make much real difference to the decision-making if MPs can't actually decide on a positive course of action. It would just move their indecision out of the Commons.
If Parliament has already passed the laws required there is no further need for it to sit. If Parliament didn't mean the laws it has passed then maybe it shouldn't have passed them?