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Revealed: Here's how Corbyn team want MPs and 'outriders' on media to fight back on BBC story. pic.twitter.com/GPnQ2m7P0H

Read the full story here

DavidL

Not even sure I want to be first on this thread

DavidL

Reading the story on the BBC it looks as if Milne in particular is going to find this uncomfortable. But hey, its not likely to change many minds now.

Drutt

< gets popcorn >

SouthamObserver

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

IanB2

Fourth like Labour

IanB2

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

SouthamObserver

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

I spent my adult life wanting to live in a Labour/Tory marginal. Now I do I wish I didn't! But I am voting LibDem whatever now. I cannot support Corbyn Labour. It is a racist party. I am sure Johnson's Tory party is too. Given that, I have to actively vote against both.

DavidL

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

Like quite a few contributions today, including the threat of civil war on the previous thread this is completely over the top. This remains a great place to live; a vigorous, creative and enterprising country with a huge range of opportunities, a solid respect for the rule of law and a genuine desire to make things better when they go wrong.

Tonight will no doubt be depressing, even as someone largely on the Tory side (completely is beyond me right now) I take no satisfaction from the dysfunctional status of both our major parties. They both have utterly incompetent leadership and little prospect of significant improvement. But a sense of perspective is required. Politics is not nearly as important as it likes to think it is. Focus on the cricket tomorrow. It's good for you, honest.

stodge

IanB2 said:

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

Maximising the LD vote is all that matters. With 40% of the vote we can get rid of Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn and Nigel Farage in a single night and get this country back on track.

That should be the aim whether it's Jo or Ed.

IanB2

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

I spent my adult life wanting to live in a Labour/Tory marginal. Now I do I wish I didn't! But I am voting LibDem whatever now. I cannot support Corbyn Labour. It is a racist party. I am sure Johnson's Tory party is too. Given that, I have to actively vote against both.

Welcome!

The one reassurance is that, if things continue as they are, the next GE will be one on which the voting tallies from the previous GE will be less relevant than ever before.

eek

FPT and I know it's off topic for the clusterfuck that is going to be Panaroma and it's aftereffects

HYUFD said:

eek said:

I was bored for 5 minutes so this is for HYUFD - good luck in Boris's General Election campaign



Given this image which party do you vote for the Tories or Brexit...

Given only Boris has a chance of delivering a majority for Brexit, not Farage, it is actually the other way around.

It was Boris and Vote Leave and Cummings who got the Leave vote over 50% ,not Farage and Leave.EU and as long as the polls show a Boris led Tory Party ahead of the Brexit Party most Leavers will vote for the former

Unless an election is called on July 25th Boris will need an extension and Nigel will completely destroy him because of that..

I'll add the second photo


Good luck in the election - a Boris lead Tories is going to need it

eek

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

Annoyingly I suspect I will have to vote Labour in the next election - It's a 2 horse constituency with no-one else anywhere.

I do however expect Brexit to destroy the Tory vote...

SouthamObserver

DavidL said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

Like quite a few contributions today, including the threat of civil war on the previous thread this is completely over the top. This remains a great place to live; a vigorous, creative and enterprising country with a huge range of opportunities, a solid respect for the rule of law and a genuine desire to make things better when they go wrong.

Tonight will no doubt be depressing, even as someone largely on the Tory side (completely is beyond me right now) I take no satisfaction from the dysfunctional status of both our major parties. They both have utterly incompetent leadership and little prospect of significant improvement. But a sense of perspective is required. Politics is not nearly as important as it likes to think it is. Focus on the cricket tomorrow. It's good for you, honest.

I disagree, I'm afraid. I think that a Tory party guided by Trump and Farage has the potential to inflict significant long-term damage on the fabric of the UK, as does a Labour party essentially controlled by the SWP. Up to now, we have had governments that respect basic British institutions and concepts such as the rule of law, the freedom of the press, the independence of the civil service and so on. I really do not think we can take any of that for granted anymore.

CatMan

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

If only we had PR

not_on_fire

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

Don’t worry, the no-deal Brexiteers are working on making it harder to leave

Streeter

GIN1138 said:

Pro_Rata said:

I don't much fancy going to civil war against Marquee, GIN et al, but on days like today, with them spouting as they are,, I begin to wonder ....

Do you think you might just be going a tiny bit over the top?

If Parliament is prorogued the people will hit the streets. We don’t hold with coups in this country.

DavidL

SouthamObserver said:

DavidL said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

Like quite a few contributions today, including the threat of civil war on the previous thread this is completely over the top. This remains a great place to live; a vigorous, creative and enterprising country with a huge range of opportunities, a solid respect for the rule of law and a genuine desire to make things better when they go wrong.

Tonight will no doubt be depressing, even as someone largely on the Tory side (completely is beyond me right now) I take no satisfaction from the dysfunctional status of both our major parties. They both have utterly incompetent leadership and little prospect of significant improvement. But a sense of perspective is required. Politics is not nearly as important as it likes to think it is. Focus on the cricket tomorrow. It's good for you, honest.

I disagree, I'm afraid. I think that a Tory party guided by Trump and Farage has the potential to inflict significant long-term damage on the fabric of the UK, as does a Labour party essentially controlled by the SWP. Up to now, we have had governments that respect basic British institutions and concepts such as the rule of law, the freedom of the press, the independence of the civil service and so on. I really do not think we can take any of that for granted anymore.

I think/hope that you are too pessimistic. There is a lot of ruining in a nation and these are incompetent prats who will achieve less than they aspire to.

SouthamObserver

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

I spent my adult life wanting to live in a Labour/Tory marginal. Now I do I wish I didn't! But I am voting LibDem whatever now. I cannot support Corbyn Labour. It is a racist party. I am sure Johnson's Tory party is too. Given that, I have to actively vote against both.

Welcome!

The one reassurance is that, if things continue as they are, the next GE will be one on which the voting tallies from the previous GE will be less relevant than ever before.

Yep, there are going to be extremes of tactical voting across the board whenever the next election takes place. The one thing I would say is that I retain my faith in the essential decency of the majority of the British people. Unfortunately, though, the minority is bigger than I thought!

IanB2

stodge said:

IanB2 said:

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

Maximising the LD vote is all that matters. With 40% of the vote we can get rid of Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn and Nigel Farage in a single night and get this country back on track.

That should be the aim whether it's Jo or Ed.

Most LibDem seats will be won from the Tories, and the tipping point for them starts to kick in as soon as the LibDems draw equal to the Tories in terms of vote share. Today’s 23%-23% draw in the YouGov is encouraging.

SquareRoot

eek said:

FPT and I know it's off topic for the clusterfuck that is going to be Panaroma and it's aftereffects

HYUFD said:

eek said:

I was bored for 5 minutes so this is for HYUFD - good luck in Boris's General Election campaign



Given this image which party do you vote for the Tories or Brexit...

Given only Boris has a chance of delivering a majority for Brexit, not Farage, it is actually the other way around.

It was Boris and Vote Leave and Cummings who got the Leave vote over 50% ,not Farage and Leave.EU and as long as the polls show a Boris led Tory Party ahead of the Brexit Party most Leavers will vote for the former

Unless an election is called on July 25th Boris will need an extension and Nigel will completely destroy him because of that..

I'll add the second photo


Good luck in the election - a Boris lead Tories is going to need it

Grammar police

led not lead

Gallowgate

IanB2 said:

stodge said:

IanB2 said:

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

Maximising the LD vote is all that matters. With 40% of the vote we can get rid of Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn and Nigel Farage in a single night and get this country back on track.

That should be the aim whether it's Jo or Ed.

Most LibDem seats will be won from the Tories, and the tipping point for them starts to kick in as soon as the LibDems draw equal to the Tories in terms of vote share. Today’s 23%-23% draw in the YouGov is encouraging.

Not in London!

SouthamObserver

DavidL said:

SouthamObserver said:

DavidL said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

Like quite a few contributions today, including the threat of civil war on the previous thread this is completely over the top. This remains a great place to live; a vigorous, creative and enterprising country with a huge range of opportunities, a solid respect for the rule of law and a genuine desire to make things better when they go wrong.

Tonight will no doubt be depressing, even as someone largely on the Tory side (completely is beyond me right now) I take no satisfaction from the dysfunctional status of both our major parties. They both have utterly incompetent leadership and little prospect of significant improvement. But a sense of perspective is required. Politics is not nearly as important as it likes to think it is. Focus on the cricket tomorrow. It's good for you, honest.

I disagree, I'm afraid. I think that a Tory party guided by Trump and Farage has the potential to inflict significant long-term damage on the fabric of the UK, as does a Labour party essentially controlled by the SWP. Up to now, we have had governments that respect basic British institutions and concepts such as the rule of law, the freedom of the press, the independence of the civil service and so on. I really do not think we can take any of that for granted anymore.

I think/hope that you are too pessimistic. There is a lot of ruining in a nation and these are incompetent prats who will achieve less than they aspire to.

They have managed to takeover the Labour and Tory parties in pretty short order. With an unwritten constitution and FPTP voting a lot can move very quickly. The one bulwark we do still have is an independent judiciary, so I expect ways to undermine that are going to be a priority.

IanB2

Gallowgate said:

IanB2 said:

stodge said:

IanB2 said:

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

Maximising the LD vote is all that matters. With 40% of the vote we can get rid of Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn and Nigel Farage in a single night and get this country back on track.

That should be the aim whether it's Jo or Ed.

Most LibDem seats will be won from the Tories, and the tipping point for them starts to kick in as soon as the LibDems draw equal to the Tories in terms of vote share. Today’s 23%-23% draw in the YouGov is encouraging.

Not in London!

Certainly, if remainy London delivers an extra batch of seats, so much the better. But the margins Labour has in Inner London are huge, and it would need an earthquake collapse in Labour support in the capital to deliver more than a handful.

eek

SquareRoot said:

eek said:

FPT and I know it's off topic for the clusterfuck that is going to be Panaroma and it's aftereffects

HYUFD said:

eek said:

I was bored for 5 minutes so this is for HYUFD - good luck in Boris's General Election campaign



Given this image which party do you vote for the Tories or Brexit...

Given only Boris has a chance of delivering a majority for Brexit, not Farage, it is actually the other way around.

It was Boris and Vote Leave and Cummings who got the Leave vote over 50% ,not Farage and Leave.EU and as long as the polls show a Boris led Tory Party ahead of the Brexit Party most Leavers will vote for the former

Unless an election is called on July 25th Boris will need an extension and Nigel will completely destroy him because of that..

I'll add the second photo


Good luck in the election - a Boris lead Tories is going to need it

Grammar police

led not lead

True - but if you are arguing over grammar the point is made and won...

DavidL

CatMan said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

If only we had PR

I've always been a fan of FPTP and the more decisive governance it provides but as our politics becomes ever more fragmented it gets harder to defend. As our major parties show less and less interest in being broad churches containing a range of views within it becomes even more difficult.

matt

IanB2 said:

stodge said:

IanB2 said:

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

Maximising the LD vote is all that matters. With 40% of the vote we can get rid of Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn and Nigel Farage in a single night and get this country back on track.

That should be the aim whether it's Jo or Ed.

Most LibDem seats will be won from the Tories, and the tipping point for them starts to kick in as soon as the LibDems draw equal to the Tories in terms of vote share. Today’s 23%-23% draw in the YouGov is encouraging.

As a matter of interest and in the spirit of full disclosure, how much have you bet on the success of the LDs?

SquareRoot

eek said:

SquareRoot said:

eek said:

FPT and I know it's off topic for the clusterfuck that is going to be Panaroma and it's aftereffects

HYUFD said:

eek said:

I was bored for 5 minutes so this is for HYUFD - good luck in Boris's General Election campaign



Given this image which party do you vote for the Tories or Brexit...

Given only Boris has a chance of delivering a majority for Brexit, not Farage, it is actually the other way around.

It was Boris and Vote Leave and Cummings who got the Leave vote over 50% ,not Farage and Leave.EU and as long as the polls show a Boris led Tory Party ahead of the Brexit Party most Leavers will vote for the former

Unless an election is called on July 25th Boris will need an extension and Nigel will completely destroy him because of that..

I'll add the second photo


Good luck in the election - a Boris lead Tories is going to need it

Grammar police

led not lead

True - but if you are arguing over grammar the point is made and won...

I was not arguing anything. just pointing out an error.

I am no "friend" of Boris. I think he would be a disaster as PM. His recent behaviour shows he has no judgement.

SouthamObserver

IanB2 said:

Gallowgate said:

IanB2 said:

stodge said:

IanB2 said:

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

Maximising the LD vote is all that matters. With 40% of the vote we can get rid of Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn and Nigel Farage in a single night and get this country back on track.

That should be the aim whether it's Jo or Ed.

Most LibDem seats will be won from the Tories, and the tipping point for them starts to kick in as soon as the LibDems draw equal to the Tories in terms of vote share. Today’s 23%-23% draw in the YouGov is encouraging.

Not in London!

Certainly, if remainy London delivers an extra batch of seats, so much the better. But the margins Labour has in Inner London are huge, and it would need an earthquake collapse in Labour support in the capital to deliver more than a handful.

Johnson is going to be a huge help to Labour where it is defending against the Tories, I don't think there is any doubt about that, but there are going to be a some mad swings.

kle4

Is that outrider plan real? It repeats how antisemitism is a real problem several times as if they know most of those who will tweet will not believe that.

IanB2

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

I spent my adult life wanting to live in a Labour/Tory marginal. Now I do I wish I didn't! But I am voting LibDem whatever now. I cannot support Corbyn Labour. It is a racist party. I am sure Johnson's Tory party is too. Given that, I have to actively vote against both.

Welcome!

The one reassurance is that, if things continue as they are, the next GE will be one on which the voting tallies from the previous GE will be less relevant than ever before.

Yep, there are going to be extremes of tactical voting across the board whenever the next election takes place. The one thing I would say is that I retain my faith in the essential decency of the majority of the British people. Unfortunately, though, the minority is bigger than I thought!

The issue won’t so much be tactical voting as against intelligent tactical voting. There are tons of Tory seats where Labour is now second that Labour won’t win in a month of Sundays, even if they were running close for lead in the polls, that could fall to other parties based on current poll ratings.

One unusual example is the Isle of Wight, long a Green target, where Labour came second last time, but they will never be able to win. On latest polls the Greens are in with a shot, especially with a pact with the LDs, yet Labour will be able to use the 2017 result to try and squeeze the LD and Green vote in their favour. If non-Tory voters trended Green, they’d chalk up another gain, but the now time-expired Corbyn surge of 2017 makes this more difficult for them.

The LibDems are in a similar position in dozens of seats across the SW and Home Counties.

eek

SquareRoot said:

eek said:

SquareRoot said:

eek said:

FPT and I know it's off topic for the clusterfuck that is going to be Panaroma and it's aftereffects

HYUFD said:

eek said:

I was bored for 5 minutes so this is for HYUFD - good luck in Boris's General Election campaign



Given this image which party do you vote for the Tories or Brexit...

Given only Boris has a chance of delivering a majority for Brexit, not Farage, it is actually the other way around.

It was Boris and Vote Leave and Cummings who got the Leave vote over 50% ,not Farage and Leave.EU and as long as the polls show a Boris led Tory Party ahead of the Brexit Party most Leavers will vote for the former

Unless an election is called on July 25th Boris will need an extension and Nigel will completely destroy him because of that..

I'll add the second photo


Good luck in the election - a Boris lead Tories is going to need it

Grammar police

led not lead

True - but if you are arguing over grammar the point is made and won...

I was not arguing anything. just pointing out an error.

I am no "friend" of Boris. I think he would be a disaster as PM. His recent behaviour shows he has no judgement.

To be honest the entire sentence is wrong - but it's too late to change it after someone has quoted it

I quite like the second photo for the 30 seconds it took to make it...

IanB2

In a parallel universe the Trump/Kim fiasco would have blown up a week ago (or, better, a month ago so the MPs could have their say) and Boris would be history.

What is it with Trump and people named Kim?

SouthamObserver

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

I spent my adult life wanting to live in a Labour/Tory marginal. Now I do I wish I didn't! But I am voting LibDem whatever now. I cannot support Corbyn Labour. It is a racist party. I am sure Johnson's Tory party is too. Given that, I have to actively vote against both.

Welcome!

The one reassurance is that, if things continue as they are, the next GE will be one on which the voting tallies from the previous GE will be less relevant than ever before.

Yep, there are going to be extremes of tactical voting across the board whenever the next election takes place. The one thing I would say is that I retain my faith in the essential decency of the majority of the British people. Unfortunately, though, the minority is bigger than I thought!

The issue won’t so much be tactical voting as against intelligent tactical voting. There are tons of Tory seats where Labour is now second that Labour won’t win in a month of Sundays, even if they were running close for lead in the polls, that could fall to other parties based on current poll ratings.

One unusual example is the Isle of Wight, long a Green target, where Labour came second last time, but they will never be able to win. On latest polls the Greens are in with a shot, especially with a pact with the LDs, yet Labour will be able to use the 2017 result to try and squeeze the LD and Green vote in their favour. If non-Tory voters trended Green, they’d chalk up another gain, but the now time-expired Corbyn surge of 2017 makes this more difficult for them.

The LibDems are in a similar position in dozens of seats across the SW and Home Counties.

My guess is that the LDs will do very well indeed in both regions. I also expect them to do well in seats like mine - Warwick & Leamington - so helping the Tories to win.

PClipp

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

Or go Lib Dem, Mr Observer. That really hits the Tories where it hurts.

Mexicanpete

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

I spent my adult life wanting to live in a Labour/Tory marginal. Now I do I wish I didn't! But I am voting LibDem whatever now. I cannot support Corbyn Labour. It is a racist party. I am sure Johnson's Tory party is too. Given that, I have to actively vote against both.

Welcome!

The one reassurance is that, if things continue as they are, the next GE will be one on which the voting tallies from the previous GE will be less relevant than ever before.

Yep, there are going to be extremes of tactical voting across the board whenever the next election takes place. The one thing I would say is that I retain my faith in the essential decency of the majority of the British people. Unfortunately, though, the minority is bigger than I thought!

In my seat a vote for the LDs or Plaid is effectively a vote for Alun Cairns. Cairns is an excellent local MP; however he is a weasely brown-noser and will give Johnson unbridled loyalty. Any vote that keeps Cairns in the HoC is a vote for Boris.

I really don't want to vote for Corbyn, but as he is generally so hopeless he will never become PM so the dilemma is how can I help to reduce Johnson's majority?

kinabalu

Looking forward to the programme tonight. I hold Panorama in high regard and if they present compelling evidence that Labour under Jeremy Corbyn are institutionally prejudiced against Jewish people I will tear up my membership.

MarqueeMark

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

I spent my adult life wanting to live in a Labour/Tory marginal. Now I do I wish I didn't! But I am voting LibDem whatever now. I cannot support Corbyn Labour. It is a racist party. I am sure Johnson's Tory party is too. Given that, I have to actively vote against both.

I thought you re-joined Labour? Have you re-left?

Viceroy_of_Orange

Taking advice from 'Sir' John Major on Europe is like listening to Dr Harold Shipman lecture us all on the importance of Doctor-Patient welfare.

Threatening more court cases though reminds me of Remain before Article 50 was triggered. Looks like they're all out of options, the devious snakes.

Nigelb

DavidL said:

CatMan said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

If only we had PR

I've always been a fan of FPTP and the more decisive governance it provides but as our politics becomes ever more fragmented it gets harder to defend. As our major parties show less and less interest in being broad churches containing a range of views within it becomes even more difficult.

I’m not convinced FPTP is tenable in the information age.

Danny Finkelstein was musing in his Times column about whether representative democracy itself would survive...

PR is probably a decent half way house.

IanB2

matt said:

IanB2 said:

stodge said:

IanB2 said:

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

Maximising the LD vote is all that matters. With 40% of the vote we can get rid of Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn and Nigel Farage in a single night and get this country back on track.

That should be the aim whether it's Jo or Ed.

Most LibDem seats will be won from the Tories, and the tipping point for them starts to kick in as soon as the LibDems draw equal to the Tories in terms of vote share. Today’s 23%-23% draw in the YouGov is encouraging.

As a matter of interest and in the spirit of full disclosure, how much have you bet on the success of the LDs?

My interest is more political, having been a member since schooldays (with a short gap last year) and having served six terms representing them on a principal local authority. But I do have a small bet at long odds on a LibDem majority that would keep me in good wine for a few weeks if it came to pass.

But I am very ready to criticise my own party when justified - as the archive for 2018 will testify for anyone bothered to go checking.

nichomar

matt said:

IanB2 said:

stodge said:

IanB2 said:

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

Maximising the LD vote is all that matters. With 40% of the vote we can get rid of Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn and Nigel Farage in a single night and get this country back on track.

That should be the aim whether it's Jo or Ed.

Most LibDem seats will be won from the Tories, and the tipping point for them starts to kick in as soon as the LibDems draw equal to the Tories in terms of vote share. Today’s 23%-23% draw in the YouGov is encouraging.

As a matter of interest and in the spirit of full disclosure, how much have you bet on the success of the LDs?

I suppose the answer to that is a good part of my life but I doubt that’s what you meant

Pulpstar

The wait for a 90s born male slam winner goes on...

Gallowgate

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Taking advice from 'Sir' John Major on Europe is like listening to Dr Harold Shipman lecture us all on the importance of Doctor-Patient welfare.

Threatening more court cases though reminds me of Remain before Article 50 was triggered. Looks like they're all out of options, the devious snakes.

Good evening.

matt

n

IanB2 said:

matt said:

IanB2 said:

stodge said:

IanB2 said:

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

Maximising the LD vote is all that matters. With 40% of the vote we can get rid of Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn and Nigel Farage in a single night and get this country back on track.

That should be the aim whether it's Jo or Ed.

Most LibDem seats will be won from the Tories, and the tipping point for them starts to kick in as soon as the LibDems draw equal to the Tories in terms of vote share. Today’s 23%-23% draw in the YouGov is encouraging.

As a matter of interest and in the spirit of full disclosure, how much have you bet on the success of the LDs?

My interest is more political, having been a member since schooldays (with a short gap last year) and having served six terms representing them on a principal local authority. But I do have a small bet at long odds on a LibDem majority that would keep me in good wine for a few weeks if it came to pass.

But I am very ready to criticise my own party when justified - as the archive for 2018 will testify for anyone bothered to go checking.

Thank you. Ramping without risk is very, very tedious.

Roger

If this was going to lose Corbyn voters or his job it would be interesting. I'm afraid this story is for a very niche market getting more niche by the day. It has been milked for all it is worth and there's nothing left to squeeze out of it. If there was a smoking gun viewers might be intrigued on that level. But as it is people are struggling to even identify the 'victims'.

IanB2

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Taking advice from 'Sir' John Major on Europe is like listening to Dr Harold Shipman lecture us all on the importance of Doctor-Patient welfare.

Threatening more court cases though reminds me of Remain before Article 50 was triggered. Looks like they're all out of options, the devious snakes.

The court case that the government lost that gave parliament a vote on the leaving deal is a relevant precedent.

GIN1138

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Taking advice from 'Sir' John Major on Europe is like listening to Dr Harold Shipman lecture us all on the importance of Doctor-Patient welfare.

Threatening more court cases though reminds me of Remain before Article 50 was triggered. Looks like they're all out of options, the devious snakes.

Guess its better to be threatening litigation than civil war...

matt

Roger said:

If this was going to lose Corbyn voters or his job it would be interesting. I'm afraid this story is for a very niche market getting more niche by the day. It has been milked for all it is worth and there's nothing left to squeeze out of it. If there was a smoking gun viewers might be intrigued on that level. But as it is people are struggling to even identify the 'victims'.

I guess the point is that if you claim you’re more moral that other parties, you better live it. Whataboutery, they’re as bad doesn’t cut it in that respect. Having said that, I remain to be convinced that habit Labour voters give a shit about Jews or anti-semitism.

Viceroy_of_Orange

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

Gardenwalker

eek said:

FPT and I know it's off topic for the clusterfuck that is going to be Panaroma and it's aftereffects

HYUFD said:

eek said:

I was bored for 5 minutes so this is for HYUFD - good luck in Boris's General Election campaign



Given this image which party do you vote for the Tories or Brexit...

Given only Boris has a chance of delivering a majority for Brexit, not Farage, it is actually the other way around.

It was Boris and Vote Leave and Cummings who got the Leave vote over 50% ,not Farage and Leave.EU and as long as the polls show a Boris led Tory Party ahead of the Brexit Party most Leavers will vote for the former

Unless an election is called on July 25th Boris will need an extension and Nigel will completely destroy him because of that..

I'll add the second photo


Good luck in the election - a Boris lead Tories is going to need it

I’d like to see Johnson in Farage’s pocket, himself in Trump’s pocket, himself in Putin’s.

A kind of Russian doll.

eek

Pulpstar said:

The wait for a 90s born male slam winner goes on...

That is a hell of a statistic I wasn't aware of.

Mexicanpete

Roger said:

If this was going to lose Corbyn voters or his job it would be interesting. I'm afraid this story is for a very niche market getting more niche by the day. It has been milked for all it is worth and there's nothing left to squeeze out of it. If there was a smoking gun viewers might be intrigued on that level. But as it is people are struggling to even identify the 'victims'.

It will not harm Corbyn any more with the faithful but it will further erode the electoral prospects of the party. Corbyn and his band of SWP clowns have a fundamental inability to differentiate between an expansionist, one state solutionist, allegedly corrupt, Benjamin Netanyahu and a fellow Labour MP who just happens to be of the Jewish faith. The man is a moron who is killing his party, irrespective of what Panorama tells us.

ReggieCide

Roger said:

If this was going to lose Corbyn voters or his job it would be interesting. I'm afraid this story is for a very niche market getting more niche by the day. It has been milked for all it is worth and there's nothing left to squeeze out of it. If there was a smoking gun viewers might be intrigued on that level. But as it is people are struggling to even identify the 'victims'.

On message not on truth then.

ReggieCide

IanB2 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Taking advice from 'Sir' John Major on Europe is like listening to Dr Harold Shipman lecture us all on the importance of Doctor-Patient welfare.

Threatening more court cases though reminds me of Remain before Article 50 was triggered. Looks like they're all out of options, the devious snakes.

The court case that the government lost that gave parliament a vote on the leaving deal is a relevant precedent.

Did that work out well then?

Foxy

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Taking advice from 'Sir' John Major on Europe is like listening to Dr Harold Shipman lecture us all on the importance of Doctor-Patient welfare.

Threatening more court cases though reminds me of Remain before Article 50 was triggered. Looks like they're all out of options, the devious snakes.

As I recall the A50 litigation was successful.

If Parliament is Prorogued, I think the survival of the PM, and of No Deal could be measured in nanoseconds.

eek

Mexicanpete said:

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

I spent my adult life wanting to live in a Labour/Tory marginal. Now I do I wish I didn't! But I am voting LibDem whatever now. I cannot support Corbyn Labour. It is a racist party. I am sure Johnson's Tory party is too. Given that, I have to actively vote against both.

Welcome!

The one reassurance is that, if things continue as they are, the next GE will be one on which the voting tallies from the previous GE will be less relevant than ever before.

Yep, there are going to be extremes of tactical voting across the board whenever the next election takes place. The one thing I would say is that I retain my faith in the essential decency of the majority of the British people. Unfortunately, though, the minority is bigger than I thought!

In my seat a vote for the LDs or Plaid is effectively a vote for Alun Cairns. Cairns is an excellent local MP; however he is a weasely brown-noser and will give Johnson unbridled loyalty. Any vote that keeps Cairns in the HoC is a vote for Boris.

I really don't want to vote for Corbyn, but as he is generally so hopeless he will never become PM so the dilemma is how can I help to reduce Johnson's majority?

In my seat I usually wasted my vote voting Lib Dem, in the last election I voted Tory only to discover the candidate had problems (of keeping trouser zips up) after my postal vote was sent.

This time the only option is Labour as Labour / Tories get 90% of all votes cast and I'm not supporting a grade A idiot as PM.... Granted Corbyn isn't much better at least he knows Trump is a.....

TrèsDifficile

kle4 said:

Is that outrider plan real? It repeats how antisemitism is a real problem several times as if they know most of those who will tweet will not believe that.

It also tells people to "beep on message", which does rather make them sound like bots!

eek

ReggieCide said:

IanB2 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Taking advice from 'Sir' John Major on Europe is like listening to Dr Harold Shipman lecture us all on the importance of Doctor-Patient welfare.

Threatening more court cases though reminds me of Remain before Article 50 was triggered. Looks like they're all out of options, the devious snakes.

The court case that the government lost that gave parliament a vote on the leaving deal is a relevant precedent.

Did that work out well then?

Well we haven't left because of said precedent - so I suspect we won't leave with No Deal due to the courts saying prorouging Parliament is fine (as that would be awkward) and we are are Parliamentary democracy....

eek

Gardenwalker said:

eek said:

FPT and I know it's off topic for the clusterfuck that is going to be Panaroma and it's aftereffects

HYUFD said:

eek said:

I was bored for 5 minutes so this is for HYUFD - good luck in Boris's General Election campaign



Given this image which party do you vote for the Tories or Brexit...

Given only Boris has a chance of delivering a majority for Brexit, not Farage, it is actually the other way around.

It was Boris and Vote Leave and Cummings who got the Leave vote over 50% ,not Farage and Leave.EU and as long as the polls show a Boris led Tory Party ahead of the Brexit Party most Leavers will vote for the former

Unless an election is called on July 25th Boris will need an extension and Nigel will completely destroy him because of that..

I'll add the second photo


Good luck in the election - a Boris lead Tories is going to need it

I’d like to see Johnson in Farage’s pocket, himself in Trump’s pocket, himself in Putin’s.

A kind of Russian doll.

I'm not that good at photoshop to make pictures 1 and 2 visible...

GIN1138

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

It would be much better if we can get Brexit done following a general election than the Prorogation of Parliament.

Roger

matt said:

Roger said:

If this was going to lose Corbyn voters or his job it would be interesting. I'm afraid this story is for a very niche market getting more niche by the day. It has been milked for all it is worth and there's nothing left to squeeze out of it. If there was a smoking gun viewers might be intrigued on that level. But as it is people are struggling to even identify the 'victims'.

I guess the point is that if you claim you’re more moral that other parties, you better live it. Whataboutery, they’re as bad doesn’t cut it in that respect. Having said that, I remain to be convinced that habit Labour voters give a shit about Jews or anti-semitism.

There have to be some tangible effects from this anti semitism. Are the job prospects of Jewish people compromised? Do people tell them to go home? How does it manifest itself. I'm Jewish and I have approximately 80 close relatives (largely thanks to a productive sister) I loathe racism and spent much of my student years marching for the ANL but anti semitism just doesn't register with me or as far as I know nor to my extended family and friends either. Mybe someone on here could show me the light?

NB An odd remark about the cruel treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis doesn't score.

Gardenwalker

https://twitter.com/edwardgluce/status/1148981738426785793?s=21

eek

GIN1138 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

It would be much better if we can get Brexit done following a general election than the Prorogation of Parliament.

Yep - Boris really needs to call it in July 25th otherwise things go pearshaped very quickly for him...

surbiton19

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

Then the Q will be gone too !

ReggieCide

Foxy said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Taking advice from 'Sir' John Major on Europe is like listening to Dr Harold Shipman lecture us all on the importance of Doctor-Patient welfare.

Threatening more court cases though reminds me of Remain before Article 50 was triggered. Looks like they're all out of options, the devious snakes.

As I recall the A50 litigation was successful.

If Parliament is Prorogued, I think the survival of the PM, and of No Deal could be measured in nanoseconds.

over-egging as per - nanoseconds? You didn't write for Blair did you?

Viceroy_of_Orange

GIN1138 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

It would be much better if we can get Brexit done following a general election than the Prorogation of Parliament.

We've already had two General Elections, a European Election and a referendum on the issue. No more extra votes for Remain - they've had their chances.

ReggieCide

eek said:

Mexicanpete said:

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

I spent my adult life wanting to live in a Labour/Tory marginal. Now I do I wish I didn't! But I am voting LibDem whatever now. I cannot support Corbyn Labour. It is a racist party. I am sure Johnson's Tory party is too. Given that, I have to actively vote against both.

Welcome!

The one reassurance is that, if things continue as they are, the next GE will be one on which the voting tallies from the previous GE will be less relevant than ever before.

Yep, there are going to be extremes of tactical voting across the board whenever the next election takes place. The one thing I would say is that I retain my faith in the essential decency of the majority of the British people. Unfortunately, though, the minority is bigger than I thought!

In my seat a vote for the LDs or Plaid is effectively a vote for Alun Cairns. Cairns is an excellent local MP; however he is a weasely brown-noser and will give Johnson unbridled loyalty. Any vote that keeps Cairns in the HoC is a vote for Boris.

I really don't want to vote for Corbyn, but as he is generally so hopeless he will never become PM so the dilemma is how can I help to reduce Johnson's majority?

In my seat I usually wasted my vote voting Lib Dem, in the last election I voted Tory only to discover the candidate had problems (of keeping trouser zips up) after my postal vote was sent.

This time the only option is Labour as Labour / Tories get 90% of all votes cast and I'm not supporting a grade A idiot as PM.... Granted Corbyn isn't much better at least he knows Trump is a.....

sorry for your incapacity

surbiton19

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

I spent my adult life wanting to live in a Labour/Tory marginal. Now I do I wish I didn't! But I am voting LibDem whatever now. I cannot support Corbyn Labour. It is a racist party. I am sure Johnson's Tory party is too. Given that, I have to actively vote against both.

Green ? I voted Green in the Euros. The vote was not wasted.

Foxy

surbiton19 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

Then the Q will be gone too !

Yes, Proroging parliament has been a fairly terminal act for some monarchs.

IanB2

eek said:

Mexicanpete said:

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

I spent my adult life wanting to live in a Labour/Tory marginal. Now I do I wish I didn't! But I am voting LibDem whatever now. I cannot support Corbyn Labour. It is a racist party. I am sure Johnson's Tory party is too. Given that, I have to actively vote against both.

Welcome!

The one reassurance is that, if things continue as they are, the next GE will be one on which the voting tallies from the previous GE will be less relevant than ever before.

Yep, there are going to be extremes of tactical voting across the board whenever the next election takes place. The one thing I would say is that I retain my faith in the essential decency of the majority of the British people. Unfortunately, though, the minority is bigger than I thought!

In my seat a vote for the LDs or Plaid is effectively a vote for Alun Cairns. Cairns is an excellent local MP; however he is a weasely brown-noser and will give Johnson unbridled loyalty. Any vote that keeps Cairns in the HoC is a vote for Boris.

I really don't want to vote for Corbyn, but as he is generally so hopeless he will never become PM so the dilemma is how can I help to reduce Johnson's majority?

In my seat I usually wasted my vote voting Lib Dem, in the last election I voted Tory only to discover the candidate had problems (of keeping trouser zips up) after my postal vote was sent.

This time the only option is Labour as Labour / Tories get 90% of all votes cast and I'm not supporting a grade A idiot as PM.... Granted Corbyn isn't much better at least he knows Trump is a.....

Ultimately both of you have the consultation that the odds of your seat being decided by a single vote are infintessimly small. Therefore you might as well vote for who you prefer, hoping that building their support helps them do better the next time.

ReggieCide

eek said:

ReggieCide said:

IanB2 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Taking advice from 'Sir' John Major on Europe is like listening to Dr Harold Shipman lecture us all on the importance of Doctor-Patient welfare.

Threatening more court cases though reminds me of Remain before Article 50 was triggered. Looks like they're all out of options, the devious snakes.

The court case that the government lost that gave parliament a vote on the leaving deal is a relevant precedent.

Did that work out well then?

Well we haven't left because of said precedent - so I suspect we won't leave with No Deal due to the courts saying prorouging Parliament is fine (as that would be awkward) and we are are Parliamentary democracy....

I hope your suspicions don't get to be tested

Foxy

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

GIN1138 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

It would be much better if we can get Brexit done following a general election than the Prorogation of Parliament.

We've already had two General Elections, a European Election and a referendum on the issue. No more extra votes for Remain - they've had their chances.

In each of those elections "No Dealers" lost the vote.

Philip_Thompson

Foxy said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Taking advice from 'Sir' John Major on Europe is like listening to Dr Harold Shipman lecture us all on the importance of Doctor-Patient welfare.

Threatening more court cases though reminds me of Remain before Article 50 was triggered. Looks like they're all out of options, the devious snakes.

As I recall the A50 litigation was successful.

If Parliament is Prorogued, I think the survival of the PM, and of No Deal could be measured in nanoseconds.

The very basis of the reason A50 litigation was successful is why it might not be against prorogation.

The A50 litigation said that because Article 50's invocation changed the law [because Britain would leave after 2 years[ it needed Parliament to approve it. Parliament already has approved it, thus it has approved what happens at the end of A50 [leaving without a deal] which was the reason why Miller won.

If Parliament is prorogued that won't change the law, the law will remain what it was when it was prorogued. Which is what MPs have already voted for.

Viceroy_of_Orange

Foxy said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

GIN1138 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

It would be much better if we can get Brexit done following a general election than the Prorogation of Parliament.

We've already had two General Elections, a European Election and a referendum on the issue. No more extra votes for Remain - they've had their chances.

In each of those elections "No Dealers" lost the vote.

Leave won.

The Remain-dominated House of Commons had 3 chances to pass a Withdrawal Agreement but they didn't. So now we leave without a deal. Simple.

IanB2

ReggieCide said:

IanB2 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Taking advice from 'Sir' John Major on Europe is like listening to Dr Harold Shipman lecture us all on the importance of Doctor-Patient welfare.

Threatening more court cases though reminds me of Remain before Article 50 was triggered. Looks like they're all out of options, the devious snakes.

The court case that the government lost that gave parliament a vote on the leaving deal is a relevant precedent.

Did that work out well then?

So far, so good.

eek

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

GIN1138 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

It would be much better if we can get Brexit done following a general election than the Prorogation of Parliament.

We've already had two General Elections, a European Election and a referendum on the issue. No more extra votes for Remain - they've had their chances.

Nope we've had a Referendum that came up 52:48 and a general election where May failed to get the majority she needed to deal with the loony wing of the Tory party.

And that lack of majority needs to be sorted as currently Parliament is as divided as the country is....

ReggieCide

Roger said:

matt said:

Roger said:

If this was going to lose Corbyn voters or his job it would be interesting. I'm afraid this story is for a very niche market getting more niche by the day. It has been milked for all it is worth and there's nothing left to squeeze out of it. If there was a smoking gun viewers might be intrigued on that level. But as it is people are struggling to even identify the 'victims'.

I guess the point is that if you claim you’re more moral that other parties, you better live it. Whataboutery, they’re as bad doesn’t cut it in that respect. Having said that, I remain to be convinced that habit Labour voters give a shit about Jews or anti-semitism.

There have to be some tangible effects from this anti semitism. Are the job prospects of Jewish people compromised? Do people tell them to go home? How does it manifest itself. I'm Jewish and I have approximately 80 close relatives (largely thanks to a productive sister) I loathe racism and spent much of my student years marching for the ANL but anti semitism just doesn't register with me or as far as I know nor to my extended family and friends either. Mybe someone on here could show me the light?

NB An odd remark about the cruel treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis doesn't score.

Does Corbyn have to come up with AND EXECUTE a final solution to qualify as an antisemite or a sympathiser?

GIN1138

ITV News seemed to playing down Boris's involvement in Kim's resignation and said that basically Kim had be "run out of town" by Donald.

IanB2

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Foxy said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

GIN1138 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

It would be much better if we can get Brexit done following a general election than the Prorogation of Parliament.

We've already had two General Elections, a European Election and a referendum on the issue. No more extra votes for Remain - they've had their chances.

In each of those elections "No Dealers" lost the vote.

Leave won.

The Remain-dominated House of Commons had 3 chances to pass a Withdrawal Agreement but they didn't. So now we leave without a deal. Simple.

You’ve gotta be an expat and/or a pensioner to be speaking like that.

Mexicanpete

SouthamObserver said:

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Whatever it reveals, tonight’s Panorama will change absolutely nothing inside Labour. It will continue to be institutionally anti-Semitic for as long as the far left is in control. The only thing you can do to make a difference is not vote Labour. But doing that means you let in Johnson, who also stands shoulder to shoulder with racists, is in the pocket of Donald Trump and would happily sell the country down the river if it served his purposes. In whichever direction you look the UK's future is bleak and getting bleaker. Those who able to leave are mad to stay!

That depends on where you live. There are plenty of Labour held seats that the Tories will never win. And plenty of Tory and SNP seats that Labour will never win.

I spent my adult life wanting to live in a Labour/Tory marginal. Now I do I wish I didn't! But I am voting LibDem whatever now. I cannot support Corbyn Labour. It is a racist party. I am sure Johnson's Tory party is too. Given that, I have to actively vote against both.

I used to be in the unfortunate position as a Labour voter to live in Leominster constituency which was a Liberal/Tory marginal and later a LD Tory marginal so I tactically voted Lib and LD. The great irony of course is the true gentleman, Peter Temple-Morris I was voting against eventually crossed the floor.

ReggieCide

surbiton19 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

Then the Q will be gone too !

twat

eek

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Foxy said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

GIN1138 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

It would be much better if we can get Brexit done following a general election than the Prorogation of Parliament.

We've already had two General Elections, a European Election and a referendum on the issue. No more extra votes for Remain - they've had their chances.

In each of those elections "No Dealers" lost the vote.

Leave won.

The Remain-dominated House of Commons had 3 chances to pass a Withdrawal Agreement but they didn't. So now we leave without a deal. Simple.

Is it remain dominated? You can't call the ERG MPs remain and they are one reason why we haven't left?

And why should any opposition MP vote for leave when the party of Government doesn't do so...

RobD

eek said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Foxy said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

GIN1138 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

It would be much better if we can get Brexit done following a general election than the Prorogation of Parliament.

We've already had two General Elections, a European Election and a referendum on the issue. No more extra votes for Remain - they've had their chances.

In each of those elections "No Dealers" lost the vote.

Leave won.

The Remain-dominated House of Commons had 3 chances to pass a Withdrawal Agreement but they didn't. So now we leave without a deal. Simple.

Is it remain dominated? You can't call the ERG MPs remain and they are one reason why we haven't left?

And why should any opposition MP vote for leave when the party of Government doesn't do so...

Isn’t it 2/3 Remain-voting MPs?

ReggieCide

Foxy said:

surbiton19 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

Then the Q will be gone too !

Yes, Proroging parliament has been a fairly terminal act for some monarchs.

an even bigger twat

Viceroy_of_Orange

eek said:

Is it remain dominated? You can't call the ERG MPs remain and they are one reason why we haven't left?

And why should any opposition MP vote for leave when the party of Government doesn't do so...

ERG not voting to pass a Withdrawal Agreement were de facto voting for a No Deal Brexit. As was anybody else voting against the Withdrawal Agreement.

There is one agreement, the EU has been clear. It was take it or leave it, and the House of Commons decided to leave it. So now we leave without an agreement.

WhisperingOracle

eek said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

GIN1138 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

It would be much better if we can get Brexit done following a general election than the Prorogation of Parliament.

We've already had two General Elections, a European Election and a referendum on the issue. No more extra votes for Remain - they've had their chances.

Nope we've had a Referendum that came up 52:48 and a general election where May failed to get the majority she needed to deal with the loony wing of the Tory party.

And that lack of majority needs to be sorted as currently Parliament is as divided as the country is....

Not just that, but there's an even smaller proportion for no-deal in the country than in parliament. A cross-analysis of various polls, for more than a year, reveals a hardcore of no more than around 27-30 % actively for no-deal, once it's understood that this doesn't mean continuity.

Are Viceroy of Orange and others arguing for taking the most cataclysmic decision in this country since 1940 on the basis of 30 % support ?

eek

RobD said:

eek said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Foxy said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

GIN1138 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

It would be much better if we can get Brexit done following a general election than the Prorogation of Parliament.

We've already had two General Elections, a European Election and a referendum on the issue. No more extra votes for Remain - they've had their chances.

In each of those elections "No Dealers" lost the vote.

Leave won.

The Remain-dominated House of Commons had 3 chances to pass a Withdrawal Agreement but they didn't. So now we leave without a deal. Simple.

Is it remain dominated? You can't call the ERG MPs remain and they are one reason why we haven't left?

And why should any opposition MP vote for leave when the party of Government doesn't do so...

Isn’t it 2/3 Remain-voting MPs?

How many Tory MPs are actively remain?
How many Tory MPs are ERG lunatics?

Floater

Jezziah tried to dismiss all this yet?

eek

GIN1138 said:

ITV News seemed to playing down Boris's involvement in Kim's resignation and said that basically Kim had be "run out of town" by Donald.

ITV news makes its money from adverts. It wants to profit from Boris shouting fake news at C4 and BBC not loss from Boris calling ITV new Fake....

Foxy

ReggieCide said:

Foxy said:

surbiton19 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

Then the Q will be gone too !

Yes, Proroging parliament has been a fairly terminal act for some monarchs.

an even bigger twat

An ironic insult from someone whose posting name is a pun on regicide.

ReggieCide

IanB2 said:

ReggieCide said:

IanB2 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Taking advice from 'Sir' John Major on Europe is like listening to Dr Harold Shipman lecture us all on the importance of Doctor-Patient welfare.

Threatening more court cases though reminds me of Remain before Article 50 was triggered. Looks like they're all out of options, the devious snakes.

The court case that the government lost that gave parliament a vote on the leaving deal is a relevant precedent.

Did that work out well then?

So far, so good.

I see. I'm not surprised.

Floater

Roger said:

matt said:

Roger said:

If this was going to lose Corbyn voters or his job it would be interesting. I'm afraid this story is for a very niche market getting more niche by the day. It has been milked for all it is worth and there's nothing left to squeeze out of it. If there was a smoking gun viewers might be intrigued on that level. But as it is people are struggling to even identify the 'victims'.

I guess the point is that if you claim you’re more moral that other parties, you better live it. Whataboutery, they’re as bad doesn’t cut it in that respect. Having said that, I remain to be convinced that habit Labour voters give a shit about Jews or anti-semitism.

There have to be some tangible effects from this anti semitism. Are the job prospects of Jewish people compromised? Do people tell them to go home? How does it manifest itself. I'm Jewish and I have approximately 80 close relatives (largely thanks to a productive sister) I loathe racism and spent much of my student years marching for the ANL but anti semitism just doesn't register with me or as far as I know nor to my extended family and friends either. Mybe someone on here could show me the light?

NB An odd remark about the cruel treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis doesn't score.

nothing to see eh Roger

nichomar

IanB2 said:

ReggieCide said:

IanB2 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Taking advice from 'Sir' John Major on Europe is like listening to Dr Harold Shipman lecture us all on the importance of Doctor-Patient welfare.

Threatening more court cases though reminds me of Remain before Article 50 was triggered. Looks like they're all out of options, the devious snakes.

The court case that the government lost that gave parliament a vote on the leaving deal is a relevant precedent.

Did that work out well then?

So far, so good.

We really should not feed the trolls, it’s satisfying at the time but will never change minds. There is an interesting pattern developing on here which I think will develop without our help. For once the stars have aligned in a unique constellation that I have never witnessed before. It has its own momentum, I don’t know where it’s going to end but after 44 years of political involvement I am enjoying the rollercoaster. I’m no longer there to put boots on the street but I can join phone banks and help financially.

Is it happening in the wider world? I don’t know but the general public are pissed off with all politicians and it will take superior skills to get any message across.

eek

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

eek said:

Is it remain dominated? You can't call the ERG MPs remain and they are one reason why we haven't left?

And why should any opposition MP vote for leave when the party of Government doesn't do so...

ERG not voting to pass a Withdrawal Agreement were de facto voting for a No Deal Brexit. As was anybody else voting against the Withdrawal Agreement.

There is one agreement, the EU has been clear. It was take it or leave it, and the House of Commons decided to leave it. So now we leave without an agreement.

No - my MP definitely wasn't voting for No Deal... I've accused her of such to her face afterwards and she was rather upset as I spelled out the reasoning...

The letter I got afterwards is a sight to behold...

Philip_Thompson

eek said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Foxy said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

GIN1138 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

It would be much better if we can get Brexit done following a general election than the Prorogation of Parliament.

We've already had two General Elections, a European Election and a referendum on the issue. No more extra votes for Remain - they've had their chances.

In each of those elections "No Dealers" lost the vote.

Leave won.

The Remain-dominated House of Commons had 3 chances to pass a Withdrawal Agreement but they didn't. So now we leave without a deal. Simple.

Is it remain dominated? You can't call the ERG MPs remain and they are one reason why we haven't left?

And why should any opposition MP vote for leave when the party of Government doesn't do so...

Actually about 450 MPs voted for Leave from memory when we invoked Article 50.

Some Tory MPs voted against the Deal because they are happy to accept leaving without a Deal as the other alternative option having already invoked Article 50.

The opposition MPs should vote for a deal if they want to avoid no deal. Otherwise we can just let time run out and leave without one as the government MPs who rejected the deal are OK with.

Philip_Thompson

eek said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

eek said:

Is it remain dominated? You can't call the ERG MPs remain and they are one reason why we haven't left?

And why should any opposition MP vote for leave when the party of Government doesn't do so...

ERG not voting to pass a Withdrawal Agreement were de facto voting for a No Deal Brexit. As was anybody else voting against the Withdrawal Agreement.

There is one agreement, the EU has been clear. It was take it or leave it, and the House of Commons decided to leave it. So now we leave without an agreement.

No - my MP definitely wasn't voting for No Deal... I've accused her of such to her face afterwards and she was rather upset as I spelled out the reasoning...

The letter I got afterwards is a sight to behold...

If she voted against the only Deal she voted to at least keep No Deal on the table. If it happens it will be in no small part because she rejected the Deal.

ReggieCide

Foxy said:

ReggieCide said:

Foxy said:

surbiton19 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

Then the Q will be gone too !

Yes, Proroging parliament has been a fairly terminal act for some monarchs.

an even bigger twat

An ironic insult from someone whose posting name is a pun on regicide.

It is my poker name - geddit?

RobD

eek said:

RobD said:

eek said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Foxy said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

GIN1138 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

It would be much better if we can get Brexit done following a general election than the Prorogation of Parliament.

We've already had two General Elections, a European Election and a referendum on the issue. No more extra votes for Remain - they've had their chances.

In each of those elections "No Dealers" lost the vote.

Leave won.

The Remain-dominated House of Commons had 3 chances to pass a Withdrawal Agreement but they didn't. So now we leave without a deal. Simple.

Is it remain dominated? You can't call the ERG MPs remain and they are one reason why we haven't left?

And why should any opposition MP vote for leave when the party of Government doesn't do so...

Isn’t it 2/3 Remain-voting MPs?

How many Tory MPs are actively remain?
How many Tory MPs are ERG lunatics?

One-third and maybe one-tenth?

Wait, if by actively remain you mean seeking to overturn, probably about one-twentieth.

Chris

IanB2 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Foxy said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

GIN1138 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

I agree with this string of thought.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1147493527061966848

It would be much better if we can get Brexit done following a general election than the Prorogation of Parliament.

We've already had two General Elections, a European Election and a referendum on the issue. No more extra votes for Remain - they've had their chances.

In each of those elections "No Dealers" lost the vote.

Leave won.

The Remain-dominated House of Commons had 3 chances to pass a Withdrawal Agreement but they didn't. So now we leave without a deal. Simple.

You’ve gotta be an expat and/or a pensioner to be speaking like that.

I believe he resides under a bridge in Norway.

eek

nichomar said:

IanB2 said:

ReggieCide said:

IanB2 said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Taking advice from 'Sir' John Major on Europe is like listening to Dr Harold Shipman lecture us all on the importance of Doctor-Patient welfare.

Threatening more court cases though reminds me of Remain before Article 50 was triggered. Looks like they're all out of options, the devious snakes.

The court case that the government lost that gave parliament a vote on the leaving deal is a relevant precedent.

Did that work out well then?

So far, so good.

We really should not feed the trolls, it’s satisfying at the time but will never change minds. There is an interesting pattern developing on here which I think will develop without our help. For once the stars have aligned in a unique constellation that I have never witnessed before. It has its own momentum, I don’t know where it’s going to end but after 44 years of political involvement I am enjoying the rollercoaster. I’m no longer there to put boots on the street but I can join phone banks and help financially.

Is it happening in the wider world? I don’t know but the general public are pissed off with all politicians and it will take superior skills to get any message across.

My concern would be that it's not superior skills its just targeting and management.

I suspect shifting Tory voters to the extremes (see my poorly created pictures earlier) will be the entire focus of the next election and I really do pity those people who don't understand what's about to happen,,