This from Johnson is just embarrassing. And on so many levels. Such self-centredness, totally inarticulate, entirely incapable of thinking on his feet. Imagine him trying to negotiate anything, let alone a new deal with the EU!! https://twitter.com/jimmfelton/status/1147118705253502976?s=21
Both incapable of thinking on his feet, and incapable of not ultimately saying the first thing that pops into his head. Which is a massive problem for him, as I don't get the impression that what he believes (to the extent that he really believes in anything) actually remotely align to the political positions that he finds himself adopting for his self-advancement. So every time he opens his mouth he's in danger of undermining himself.
BBC 5Live advising that a "Today" programme investigation on R4 this morning will report that Conservative party members are receiving two ballots for the PM beauty show contest.
Who's running this sh*t show? .... UKIP entryists, Tower Hamlets Labour party or the North Korean Elections Unit?
WE WILL DELIVER BREXIT !!!!
OK, let's start with ballot papers...
Ummmm.
If all Hunt backers get 2 votes he might not get totally humiliated and only lose by a bit, so perhaps its intentional?
Thing about Brexit isn't whether it's a conservative idea. Thing is, it's a failure in terms of what it sets out to achieve. The reaction to that failure is deeply unconservative. Brexit is Suez one hundred times over.
This from Johnson is just embarrassing. And on so many levels. Such self-centredness, totally inarticulate, entirely incapable of thinking on his feet. Imagine him trying to negotiate anything, let alone a new deal with the EU!! https://twitter.com/jimmfelton/status/1147118705253502976?s=21
That is some sacrifice, not least for his potential readers.
Having read significant segments of Johnson's challenging(*) book on Churchill I got the distinct impression that Churchill's wartime statesmanship, was somehow, through a quirk of time-travelling telepathy, a channelling of Johnson's own genius. I couldn't quite work out whether Johnson was in awe of Churchill, or infact Churchill would have been in awe of Johnson had the timings of the two great men aligned.
As Johnson has now set his sights on Shakespeare does this mean we should credit Johnson with the more impressive works of the bard?
It would be helpful if one of Johnson's admirers could reassure the doubters with a catalogue of genuine achievements why this seemingly flawed individual will become our greatest ever Prime Minister. I have done my own cost-benefit analysis and the costs far outweigh the benefits, to the point where the benefits column remains empty- I can't even add the go to reassurance that at least he would be better than Corbyn.
(*) - tedious.
I’m sure HY will provide you with a list given he has been asked many times as to why Johnson would be a good PM.
I would like a more robust analysis than 'because he is the only Conservative politian who can beat Corbyn'.
One reason given is he wont actually do what he says he will and will ignore those most loudly backing him once he wins a GE.
BBC 5Live advising that a "Today" programme investigation on R4 this morning will report that Conservative party members are receiving two ballots for the PM beauty show contest.
Who's running this sh*t show? .... UKIP entryists, Tower Hamlets Labour party or the North Korean Elections Unit?
WE WILL DELIVER BREXIT !!!!
OK, let's start with ballot papers...
Ummmm.
If all Hunt backers get 2 votes he might not get totally humiliated and only lose by a bit, so perhaps its intentional?
According to R4, whilst some of it is poor records or duplication when people move house or marry/divorce, a lot of it is people actively joining two or more different associations to be able to participate in their internal elections and/or get invites to social events. It's suggested a blind eye is turned not least because it inflates the overall membership total.
Which sounds dodgy to me - I don't think you can be a member of two different associations at the same time in other parties (although Labour did used to have lots of multiple voting via its affiliated orgs)
Let's lay off HYUFD. The great things about PB over the past 15.5 years is that it has been a place where people of all political persuasions on all issues have been able to feel welcome and participate. He might be a minority voice on the site but it is a reminder as to why so many in the Conservative Party are backing someone like Boris as leader.
This from Johnson is just embarrassing. And on so many levels. Such self-centredness, totally inarticulate, entirely incapable of thinking on his feet. Imagine him trying to negotiate anything, let alone a new deal with the EU!! https://twitter.com/jimmfelton/status/1147118705253502976?s=21
Leaving aside the actual comments, he is really not that good a communicator for someone who is meant to be a good communicator.
Reminds me a bit of Corbyn despite very different styles, as he us a great communicator who usually has supporters and spokespersons clarifying what he communicated.
There are so many parallels with Corbyn, but that is not surprising really. Like the Labour leader, Johnson will owe his position to zealots, racists and loons who are entirely unrepresentative of the majority of the population.
Let's lay off HYUFD. The great things about PB over the past 15.5 years is that it has been a place where people of all political persuasions on all issues have been able to feel welcome and participate. He might be a minority voice on the site but it is a reminder as to why so many in the Conservative Party are backing someone like Boris as leader.
By your word so shall it be, but a clarifying question - that surely does not preclude responding with incredulity to the worshipping of Boris? Poor old Jezziah has to put up with that in relation to, well, the Jezziah
The cheers reverberating throughout the country when Portillo went will be nothing compared to those that will be heard when Patel and IDS go. For those who are ambivalent about Johnson just need to listen to those who he has chosen as his spokespeople.
And you think in his cabinet? Is IDS his deputy PM? And Patel, where’s our money going on her top job?
Ah, the old 'don't believe in anything' garbage. That normally means, as in this case, 'doesn't believe in my irrational and extreme view'.
But enjoy yourself while you can. It's hilarious to watch you putting your naïve trust in Boris, of all people - he's actually somewhat to the left of Cameron and of me, inasmuch as he has any political position.
I know Boris is a social liberal.
But for now, national independence is the goal and he is best placed to deliver. Once completed, we can move onto our next projects. My post-Brexit priorities are grammar schools, the death penalty, foreign aid and strict immigration controls like Australia.
I look forward to pushing the party in that direction.
Good to hear that foreign aid is one of your priorities.
As I confirmed yesterday my wife and I came to the decision we could not vote for either candidate and returned our ballots plainly marked 'neither'
I then received a telephone call from the 'Boris Team' seeking my vote. I politely told him I will not vote for either; Hunt because of his ill judged comments on hunting and Boris for attacking business and telling Airbus to FO, the company that my son in law works for in a senior position. I also said that I could not agree under any circumstances with a no deal position and the very anti business rhetoric.
He said that no deal is only to influence the negotiations but that Boris will get a deal and unite the nation. He said that Boris will be a very pro business and strongly pro the Union which he will fight tooth and claw to strengthen and preserve
I suggested he could do some good if he went to the North East fishing communities and confirm his attitude to the CFP and also a trip to Airbus factory here in North Wales would not be amiss.
From the conversation I think Boris is taking Hyufd and Viceroy for fools to gain office and will swivel to TM deal with superficial changes agreed with the EU to get the deal done,
I have become quite used to Hyufd and UKIP infiltrators in attacking my membership and to tell me I am not a real conservatives and should leave to allow the party to be taken over by their Farage tribute group.
I have news for them. I am not leaving and will continue to seek compromise and sensible solutions that are 100% pro business, pro the Union, and have a social conscience
He's a rambling buffoon who throws in the odd bit of Latin. That people who know he's selling bullshit and buying it anyway is ridiculous.
You guys have no idea how he will actually govern, how successful he might be. Look at Trumps approval ratings now in his own party. Boris got more than half the MPs and the Tory press love him.
I think I said the day before the yesterday the 20/1 with Ladbrokes for him to get over 80% looked like value.
I got 22% with an odds boost at the price of a pint, but 65% is more likely.
Throwing rotten tomatoes from the cheap seats as Boris waffles and blusters may well be entertaining. The pitchforks and torches will follow fairly quickly.
As I confirmed yesterday my wife and I came to the decision we could not vote for either candidate and returned our ballots plainly marked 'neither'
I then received a telephone call from the 'Boris Team' seeking my vote. I politely told him I will not vote for either; Hunt because of his ill judged comments on hunting and Boris for attacking business and telling Airbus to FO, the company that my son in law works for in a senior position. I also said that I could not agree under any circumstances with a no deal position and the very anti business rhetoric.
He said that no deal is only to influence the negotiations but that Boris will get a deal and unite the nation. He said that Boris will be a very pro business and strongly pro the Union which he will fight tooth and claw to strengthen and preserve
I suggested he could do some good if he went to the North East fishing communities and confirm his attitude to the CFP and also a trip to Airbus factory here in North Wales would not be amiss.
From the conversation I think Boris is taking Hyufd and Viceroy for fools to gain office and will swivel to TM deal with superficial changes agreed with the EU to get the deal done,
I have become quite used to Hyufd and UKIP infiltrators in attacking my membership and to tell me I am not a real conservatives and should leave to allow the party to be taken over by their Farage tribute group.
I have news for them. I am not leaving and will continue to seek compromise and sensible solutions that are 100% pro business, pro the Union, and have a social conscience
If you were 100% pro-business, I’d suggest that you should never have voted to leave and put SiLs employment at risk.
He's a rambling buffoon who throws in the odd bit of Latin. That people who know he's selling bullshit and buying it anyway is ridiculous.
You guys have no idea how he will actually govern, how successful he might be. Look at Trumps approval ratings now in his own party. Boris got more than half the MPs and the Tory press love him.
You are also underestimating how the politics and skills of Crosby and Bannon perfectly match a plurality of voters in Brexit Britain
Let's lay off HYUFD. The great things about PB over the past 15.5 years is that it has been a place where people of all political persuasions on all issues have been able to feel welcome and participate. He might be a minority voice on the site but it is a reminder as to why so many in the Conservative Party are backing someone like Boris as leader.
I am a fan of @HYUFD. But his pronouncements can and should be challenged. I think it’s all in the manner. Plus he seeks political office and funnily enough he reminds me of Hazel Blears in his single mindedness. Perhaps he thinks this is how politicians are.
Being challenged here on PB is good training for him. If he succeeds in his aim to be elected he will face much worse.
As I confirmed yesterday my wife and I came to the decision we could not vote for either candidate and returned our ballots plainly marked 'neither'
I then received a telephone call from the 'Boris Team' seeking my vote. I politely told him I will not vote for either; Hunt because of his ill judged comments on hunting and Boris for attacking business and telling Airbus to FO, the company that my son in law works for in a senior position. I also said that I could not agree under any circumstances with a no deal position and the very anti business rhetoric.
He said that no deal is only to influence the negotiations but that Boris will get a deal and unite the nation. He said that Boris will be a very pro business and strongly pro the Union which he will fight tooth and claw to strengthen and preserve
I suggested he could do some good if he went to the North East fishing communities and confirm his attitude to the CFP and also a trip to Airbus factory here in North Wales would not be amiss.
From the conversation I think Boris is taking Hyufd and Viceroy for fools to gain office and will swivel to TM deal with superficial changes agreed with the EU to get the deal done,
I have become quite used to Hyufd and UKIP infiltrators in attacking my membership and to tell me I am not a real conservatives and should leave to allow the party to be taken over by their Farage tribute group.
I have news for them. I am not leaving and will continue to seek compromise and sensible solutions that are 100% pro business, pro the Union, and have a social conscience
If you were 100% pro-business, I’d suggest that you should never have voted to leave and put SiLs employment at risk.
I did not vote to leave.
I voted remain but accept the referendum result. TM deal was fine by me, no deal is not
The last Tory leader elected was a safe pair of hands. It turned out not to be safe. Surrounded by the right team, Boris can work, as he did in London.
However, if Boris' time as Foreign Secretary is to be any guide I suspect he'll be the spiritual successor to the Angeli.
I'd like to be wrong, of course. But I think he's a disreputable incompetent.
Dr. Foxy, the dubious ways of Leicester have been noted, and added to the name of Lancashire in the long memories of Yorkshire. Prepare thyself for 500 years of not necessarily serious grudge-holding!
The last Tory leader elected was a safe pair of hands. It turned out not to be safe. Surrounded by the right team, Boris can work, as he did in London.
He's a rambling buffoon who throws in the odd bit of Latin. That people who know he's selling bullshit and buying it anyway is ridiculous.
You guys have no idea how he will actually govern, how successful he might be. Look at Trumps approval ratings now in his own party. Boris got more than half the MPs and the Tory press love him.
Of course theres a chance he will govern well. I hope he does exceed my expectations. But he certainly doesnt communicate clearly for a great communicator.
And not knowing how he will actually govern and successful he might be is an argument to support anyone, Corbyn included. More so in his case as unlike Boris he has no office holding bar opposition to judge his likely success .
"Now is the winter of our discontent Made glorious summer by this championship. Although, in truth, a York man in my heart (Though some of course dispute I have that valve) The Minstermen this term have shown such poor defence They are condemnéd to the Conference."
Though after many years a Yorkshire team is finally back in the Premier League, for a year anyway
The last Tory leader elected was a safe pair of hands. It turned out not to be safe. Surrounded by the right team, Boris can work, as he did in London.
The right team. Like IDS and Priti Patel, you mean?
Nobody hurt. Power still on. And Internet still working. Phew.
Let's hope to god that these two recent quakes are not the precursors to the next 1906 event. That was a 7.9 with a MMI at the top end of the scale of XI :
"Few, if any, (masonry) structures remain standing. Bridges destroyed. Broad fissures in ground. Underground pipe lines completely out of service. Earth slumps and land slips in soft ground. Rails bent greatly."
These are rolling quakes not shakers. My wife is very blasé about it.
Many moons ago I was chatting with a scientist "quack nut" (his words) who described that broad view as "Bill Haley Syndrome" - Shake Rattle and Roll - the idea that rollers wouldn't be believed to be upcoming major quakes until the death rattle struck the victims !!
Thank you Jack
You know my wife and daughter in LA at the moment?
The last Tory leader elected was a safe pair of hands. It turned out not to be safe. Surrounded by the right team, Boris can work, as he did in London.
One hopes so. It is true the safe pair did not work last time so its unsurprising members want to gamble, and they have a greater need to gamble too.
But that doesnt mean disquiet as his performances and reliance on his record from 7 years ago in a very different role and environment as proof if his awesomeness, not least when some of his ardent backers will be disappointed by what other ardent backers say he will do, is not reasonable.
However, if Boris' time as Foreign Secretary is to be any guide I suspect he'll be the spiritual successor to the Angeli.
I'd like to be wrong, of course. But I think he's a disreputable incompetent.
Dr. Foxy, the dubious ways of Leicester have been noted, and added to the name of Lancashire in the long memories of Yorkshire. Prepare thyself for 500 years of not necessarily serious grudge-holding!
Like many other Lestah folk, I am a migrant here, my birthplace was Lancashire.
The last Tory leader elected was a safe pair of hands. It turned out not to be safe. Surrounded by the right team, Boris can work, as he did in London.
The right team. Like IDS and Priti Patel, you mean?
As I confirmed yesterday my wife and I came to the decision we could not vote for either candidate and returned our ballots plainly marked 'neither'
I then received a telephone call from the 'Boris Team' seeking my vote. I politely told him I will not vote for either; Hunt because of his ill judged comments on hunting and Boris for attacking business and telling Airbus to FO, the company that my son in law works for in a senior position. I also said that I could not agree under any circumstances with a no deal position and the very anti business rhetoric.
He said that no deal is only to influence the negotiations but that Boris will get a deal and unite the nation. He said that Boris will be a very pro business and strongly pro the Union which he will fight tooth and claw to strengthen and preserve
I suggested he could do some good if he went to the North East fishing communities and confirm his attitude to the CFP and also a trip to Airbus factory here in North Wales would not be amiss.
From the conversation I think Boris is taking Hyufd and Viceroy for fools to gain office and will swivel to TM deal with superficial changes agreed with the EU to get the deal done...
It’s possible - though just as possible that it’s your side of the party being taken for fools.
What seems clear is that the only new members the Tories are likely to attract any time soon will be of the Viceroy persuasion, and that will have consequences for the future of the party.
I have great sympathy for your wishes for the party, but I am not in the least optimistic.
The last Tory leader elected was a safe pair of hands. It turned out not to be safe. Surrounded by the right team, Boris can work, as he did in London.
I agree , also he would easily beat Corbyn. So everyone should be pleased.
The last Tory leader elected was a safe pair of hands. It turned out not to be safe. Surrounded by the right team, Boris can work, as he did in London.
And who is this 'right team'? IDS? Patel? Truss?
Do we know that? I'm not just talking about his ministerial team, his political team are as important in many ways.
Let's lay off HYUFD. The great things about PB over the past 15.5 years is that it has been a place where people of all political persuasions on all issues have been able to feel welcome and participate. He might be a minority voice on the site but it is a reminder as to why so many in the Conservative Party are backing someone like Boris as leader.
Well said Mike. Too many comments on this site routinely throw in a gratuitous casual insult while making a wider point and those directed at HYUFD are a prime example.
This site has already to a degree turned into an echo chamber of Conservative voting Remainers and will do so even further if others are prompted to disengage.
Joined the Tory Party, leavin Ukip, for this exact moment.
Hope you Cameroons are delighted with your 24% x
If Johnson fails on Brexit, will you admit that it’s Brexit that is the problem, not the leader?
There is no "failing" on Brexit. Either they honour their word, or do not.
If Boris doesn't do, then the Tory Party itself will have to go.
And if Nigel Farage became PM and didn’t honour his word?
You seem to be suggesting it is some impossibility. It really isn't. We're leaving a treaty and resuming a status we've had for 1,000 years. Like Australia. Canada. New Zealand. Telling us we can't have it when we can see it in front of us won't wash.
A status we’ve had for 1,000 years? What would that be, because it certainly isn’t the UK.
The guy is obviously a fruitcake and not a very bright on either. Methinks just your average xenophobic Little Englander with little knowledge of history.
As I confirmed yesterday my wife and I came to the decision we could not vote for either candidate and returned our ballots plainly marked 'neither'
I then received a telephone call from the 'Boris Team' seeking my vote. I politely told him I will not vote for either; Hunt because of his ill judged comments on hunting and Boris for attacking business and telling Airbus to FO, the company that my son in law works for in a senior position. I also said that I could not agree under any circumstances with a no deal position and the very anti business rhetoric.
He said that no deal is only to influence the negotiations but that Boris will get a deal and unite the nation. He said that Boris will be a very pro business and strongly pro the Union which he will fight tooth and claw to strengthen and preserve
I suggested he could do some good if he went to the North East fishing communities and confirm his attitude to the CFP and also a trip to Airbus factory here in North Wales would not be amiss.
From the conversation I think Boris is taking Hyufd and Viceroy for fools to gain office and will swivel to TM deal with superficial changes agreed with the EU to get the deal done...
It’s possible - though just as possible that it’s your side of the party being taken for fools.
What seems clear is that the only new members the Tories are likely to attract any time soon will be of the Viceroy persuasion, and that will have consequences for the future of the party.
I have great sympathy for your wishes for the party, but I am not in the least optimistic.
I rather suspect that the person manning for phone has been given a script with answers to these kind of questions e.g. the f business gaffe. Don't believe a word of it.
It is also worth noting the resilience of the 'F business' comment. Imagine a similar level gaffe in middle of a highly contested GE. Imagine the off the cuff joke comment is 'fuck the poor'.
Boris is seen as the best solution to stopping Jezza. But will Boris be allowed out during the five week GE campaign? I rather suspect not.
As I confirmed yesterday my wife and I came to the decision we could not vote for either candidate and returned our ballots plainly marked 'neither'
I then received a telephone call from the 'Boris Team' seeking my vote. I politely told him I will not vote for either; Hunt because of his ill judged comments on hunting and Boris for attacking business and telling Airbus to FO, the company that my son in law works for in a senior position. I also said that I could not agree under any circumstances with a no deal position and the very anti business rhetoric.
He said that no deal is only to influence the negotiations but that Boris will get a deal and unite the nation. He said that Boris will be a very pro business and strongly pro the Union which he will fight tooth and claw to strengthen and preserve
I suggested he could do some good if he went to the North East fishing communities and confirm his attitude to the CFP and also a trip to Airbus factory here in North Wales would not be amiss.
From the conversation I think Boris is taking Hyufd and Viceroy for fools to gain office and will swivel to TM deal with superficial changes agreed with the EU to get the deal done...
It’s possible - though just as possible that it’s your side of the party being taken for fools.
What seems clear is that the only new members the Tories are likely to attract any time soon will be of the Viceroy persuasion, and that will have consequences for the future of the party.
I have great sympathy for your wishes for the party, but I am not in the least optimistic.
It is hard to know which part of the party is being played for fools, most likely it is both sides. Boris probably doesnt even know or care himself, he will just let events dictate what is best for Boris as he always does. No doubt the phone call would have gone very differently if Big_G had expressed opposite concerns that we were not Brexity enough with confirmation we will leave on Oct 31 with or without a deal.
If that were true, it would be quite funny, and it would be rather typical of the EU to not realise what they'd written. They're almost as bad as Lloyd Russell-Moyle.
As I confirmed yesterday my wife and I came to the decision we could not vote for either candidate and returned our ballots plainly marked 'neither'
I then received a telephone call from the 'Boris Team' seeking my vote. I politely told him I will not vote for either; Hunt because of his ill judged comments on hunting and Boris for attacking business and telling Airbus to FO, the company that my son in law works for in a senior position. I also said that I could not agree under any circumstances with a no deal position and the very anti business rhetoric.
He said that no deal is only to influence the negotiations but that Boris will get a deal and unite the nation. He said that Boris will be a very pro business and strongly pro the Union which he will fight tooth and claw to strengthen and preserve
I suggested he could do some good if he went to the North East fishing communities and confirm his attitude to the CFP and also a trip to Airbus factory here in North Wales would not be amiss.
From the conversation I think Boris is taking Hyufd and Viceroy for fools to gain office and will swivel to TM deal with superficial changes agreed with the EU to get the deal done...
It’s possible - though just as possible that it’s your side of the party being taken for fools.
What seems clear is that the only new members the Tories are likely to attract any time soon will be of the Viceroy persuasion, and that will have consequences for the future of the party.
I have great sympathy for your wishes for the party, but I am not in the least optimistic.
It is remarkable that Boris has cornered both the extreme leave and remain ends, each convinced that what he tells the other wing are just political promises to garner votes and not to be taken seriously.
The Tories were a different party in 2001 compared to now. For starters I was a member back then! In 2001, the Tories had been in opposition for 4 years and were gradually building up foot soldiers again from the depletion between 1992- 1997. I do think the Tories have been infiltrated as if polls are to be believed on maintaining the UK or Brexit. Brexit wins by a large margin, the UK union 20 years ago would have been a pivotal issue where as now the people who are members only care about Europe. The way the party has evolved is unsustainable and will lead to its utter marginalisation. It fails to appeal to the broad coalition it once attracted and single issue politics is the road to ruin for a party that contests all areas of the UK.
Labour is no longer a broad church. The Tory Party is no longer a broad church. Here begins the era of the Lib Dems?
Not really, since they don't want to be a broad church either.
I thought we did.... At least broad enough to take power again, after a hundred years of illiberal and incompetent governments.
Joined the Tory Party, leavin Ukip, for this exact moment.
Hope you Cameroons are delighted with your 24% x
If Johnson fails on Brexit, will you admit that it’s Brexit that is the problem, not the leader?
There is no "failing" on Brexit. Either they honour their word, or do not.
If Boris doesn't do, then the Tory Party itself will have to go.
And if Nigel Farage became PM and didn’t honour his word?
You seem to be suggesting it is some impossibility. It really isn't. We're leaving a treaty and resuming a status we've had for 1,000 years. Like Australia. Canada. New Zealand. Telling us we can't have it when we can see it in front of us won't wash.
A status we’ve had for 1,000 years? What would that be, because it certainly isn’t the UK.
The guy is obviously a fruitcake and not a very bright on either. Methinks just your average xenophobic Little Englander with little knowledge of history.
Yes, never mind the UK. It doesn't really make sense to talk about England before 1485 (a date that appears to have cropped up more than once this morning).
As I confirmed yesterday my wife and I came to the decision we could not vote for either candidate and returned our ballots plainly marked 'neither'
I then received a telephone call from the 'Boris Team' seeking my vote. I politely told him I will not vote for either; Hunt because of his ill judged comments on hunting and Boris for attacking business and telling Airbus to FO, the company that my son in law works for in a senior position. I also said that I could not agree under any circumstances with a no deal position and the very anti business rhetoric.
He said that no deal is only to influence the negotiations but that Boris will get a deal and unite the nation. He said that Boris will be a very pro business and strongly pro the Union which he will fight tooth and claw to strengthen and preserve
I suggested he could do some good if he went to the North East fishing communities and confirm his attitude to the CFP and also a trip to Airbus factory here in North Wales would not be amiss.
From the conversation I think Boris is taking Hyufd and Viceroy for fools to gain office and will swivel to TM deal with superficial changes agreed with the EU to get the deal done...
It’s possible - though just as possible that it’s your side of the party being taken for fools.
What seems clear is that the only new members the Tories are likely to attract any time soon will be of the Viceroy persuasion, and that will have consequences for the future of the party.
I have great sympathy for your wishes for the party, but I am not in the least optimistic.
It is hard to know which part of the party is being played for fools, most likely it is both sides. Boris probably doesnt even know or care himself, he will just let events dictate what is best for Boris as he always does. No doubt the phone call would have gone very differently if Big_G had expressed opposite concerns that we were not Brexity enough with confirmation we will leave on Oct 31 with or without a deal.
As I confirmed yesterday my wife and I came to the decision we could not vote for either candidate and returned our ballots plainly marked 'neither'
I then received a telephone call from the 'Boris Team' seeking my vote. I politely told him I will not vote for either; Hunt because of his ill judged comments on hunting and Boris for attacking business and telling Airbus to FO, the company that my son in law works for in a senior position. I also said that I could not agree under any circumstances with a no deal position and the very anti business rhetoric.
He said that no deal is only to influence the negotiations but that Boris will get a deal and unite the nation. He said that Boris will be a very pro business and strongly pro the Union which he will fight tooth and claw to strengthen and preserve
I suggested he could do some good if he went to the North East fishing communities and confirm his attitude to the CFP and also a trip to Airbus factory here in North Wales would not be amiss.
From the conversation I think Boris is taking Hyufd and Viceroy for fools to gain office and will swivel to TM deal with superficial changes agreed with the EU to get the deal done...
It’s possible - though just as possible that it’s your side of the party being taken for fools.
What seems clear is that the only new members the Tories are likely to attract any time soon will be of the Viceroy persuasion, and that will have consequences for the future of the party.
I have great sympathy for your wishes for the party, but I am not in the least optimistic.
I rather suspect that the person manning for phone has been given a script with answers to these kind of questions e.g. the f business gaffe. Don't believe a word of it.
It is also worth noting the resilience of the 'F business' comment. Imagine a similar level gaffe in middle of a highly contest GE. Imagine the off the cuff joke comment is 'fuck the poor'.
Boris is seen as the best solution to stopping Jezza. But will Boris be allowed out during the five week GE campaign? I rather suspect not.
Jezza is a lame duck, not too hard to beat.
But can Boris increase Tory seats? methinks not. Indeed I expect both Labour and Tories to lose seats in the Autumn election. The question is who will lose more.
Let's lay off HYUFD. The great things about PB over the past 15.5 years is that it has been a place where people of all political persuasions on all issues have been able to feel welcome and participate. He might be a minority voice on the site but it is a reminder as to why so many in the Conservative Party are backing someone like Boris as leader.
Well said Mike. Too many comments on this site routinely throw in a gratuitous casual insult while making a wider point and those directed at HYUFD are a prime example.
This site has already to a degree turned into an echo chamber of Conservative voting Remainers and will do so even further if others are prompted to disengage.
I like to read all shades of opinion on here. That is one of the attractions.
Joined the Tory Party, leavin Ukip, for this exact moment.
Hope you Cameroons are delighted with your 24% x
If Johnson fails on Brexit, will you admit that it’s Brexit that is the problem, not the leader?
There is no "failing" on Brexit. Either they honour their word, or do not.
If Boris doesn't do, then the Tory Party itself will have to go.
And if Nigel Farage became PM and didn’t honour his word?
You seem to be suggesting it is some impossibility. It really isn't. We're leaving a treaty and resuming a status we've had for 1,000 years. Like Australia. Canada. New Zealand. Telling us we can't have it when we can see it in front of us won't wash.
A status we’ve had for 1,000 years? What would that be, because it certainly isn’t the UK.
The guy is obviously a fruitcake and not a very bright on either. Methinks just your average xenophobic Little Englander with little knowledge of history.
Yes, never mind the UK. It doesn't really make sense to talk about England before 1485 (a date that appears to have cropped up more than once this morning).
What has 1485 got to do with England?
If you mean, that was the foundation of England as a unitary state, then I fear that you underestimate the reign of Aethelstan from 924-939.
If you mean the date England absorbed Wales, I fear you're still wrong as the relevant dates might be given as 1277, 1284, or 1536 with the abolition of the Principalities of North and West Wales and the Marcher Lordships.
If you mean, the moment a Welshman (for a given value of 'Welshman') became King of England, I can't fault you.
Jeremy Hunt makes a last ditch bid to diehard Tory Unionists by trying a Mariano Rajoy tribute act and suggesting he would block indyref2 even if the SNP won a majority at the next Holyrood elections.
Boris however did not explicitly rule out indyref2, although he said he was 'a passionate Unionist' and believed the 2014 referendum was a 'once in a generation' vote
The last Tory leader elected was a safe pair of hands. It turned out not to be safe. Surrounded by the right team, Boris can work, as he did in London.
Leaving aside the well-documented downside of his time as Mayor, I'd suggest the skillset of that job is further away from PM than is that of Foreign Secretary.
In the GLA he brought in a lot of high paid people who were in effect both political and civil servants who did all the bits of the job that didn't interest him (which was most of it).
Much harder to hide behind others like that when you are PM. And harder to make political officer appointments.
As I confirmed yesterday my wife and I came to the decision we could not vote for either candidate and returned our ballots plainly marked 'neither'
I then received a telephone call from the 'Boris Team' seeking my vote. I politely told him I will not vote for either; Hunt because of his ill judged comments on hunting and Boris for attacking business and telling Airbus to FO, the company that my son in law works for in a senior position. I also said that I could not agree under any circumstances with a no deal position and the very anti business rhetoric.
He said that no deal is only to influence the negotiations but that Boris will get a deal and unite the nation. He said that Boris will be a very pro business and strongly pro the Union which he will fight tooth and claw to strengthen and preserve
I suggested he could do some good if he went to the North East fishing communities and confirm his attitude to the CFP and also a trip to Airbus factory here in North Wales would not be amiss.
From the conversation I think Boris is taking Hyufd and Viceroy for fools to gain office and will swivel to TM deal with superficial changes agreed with the EU to get the deal done...
It’s possible - though just as possible that it’s your side of the party being taken for fools.
What seems clear is that the only new members the Tories are likely to attract any time soon will be of the Viceroy persuasion, and that will have consequences for the future of the party.
I have great sympathy for your wishes for the party, but I am not in the least optimistic.
It is hard to know which part of the party is being played for fools, most likely it is both sides. Boris probably doesnt even know or care himself, he will just let events dictate what is best for Boris as he always does. No doubt the phone call would have gone very differently if Big_G had expressed opposite concerns that we were not Brexity enough with confirmation we will leave on Oct 31 with or without a deal.
That assumes Boris is playing. Maybe we should assume he hasn't a clue and is just cocking up massively everywhere?
Nobody hurt. Power still on. And Internet still working. Phew.
Let's hope to god that these two recent quakes are not the precursors to the next 1906 event. That was a 7.9 with a MMI at the top end of the scale of XI :
"Few, if any, (masonry) structures remain standing. Bridges destroyed. Broad fissures in ground. Underground pipe lines completely out of service. Earth slumps and land slips in soft ground. Rails bent greatly."
These are rolling quakes not shakers. My wife is very blasé about it.
Many moons ago I was chatting with a scientist "quack nut" (his words) who described that broad view as "Bill Haley Syndrome" - Shake Rattle and Roll - the idea that rollers wouldn't be believed to be upcoming major quakes until the death rattle struck the victims !!
Thank you Jack
You know my wife and daughter in LA at the moment?
Yes I am aware they are on the "watch list" having entered the USA on business as part-time leap year gas lamp-light exporters.
I'm glad they're ahead of the game when the Trump's great BREXIT deal with the UK is ratified with Prime Minister Farage early next year !!
Joined the Tory Party, leavin Ukip, for this exact moment.
Hope you Cameroons are delighted with your 24% x
If Johnson fails on Brexit, will you admit that it’s Brexit that is the problem, not the leader?
There is no "failing" on Brexit. Either they honour their word, or do not.
If Boris doesn't do, then the Tory Party itself will have to go.
And if Nigel Farage became PM and didn’t honour his word?
You seem to be suggesting it is some impossibility. It really isn't. We're leaving a treaty and resuming a status we've had for 1,000 years. Like Australia. Canada. New Zealand. Telling us we can't have it when we can see it in front of us won't wash.
A status we’ve had for 1,000 years? What would that be, because it certainly isn’t the UK.
The guy is obviously a fruitcake and not a very bright on either. Methinks just your average xenophobic Little Englander with little knowledge of history.
Yes, never mind the UK. It doesn't really make sense to talk about England before 1485 (a date that appears to have cropped up more than once this morning).
What has 1485 got to do with England?
If you mean, that was the foundation of England as a unitary state, then I fear that you underestimate the reign of Aethelstan from 924-939.
If you mean the date England absorbed Wales, I fear you're still wrong as the relevant dates might be given as 1277, 1284, or 1536 with the abolition of the Principalities of North and West Wales and the Marcher Lordships.
If you mean, the moment a Welshman (for a given value of 'Welshman') became King of England, I can't fault you.
As I'm sure you know I mean the coming of the Tudor dynasty, and the establishment of a centralised army and bureaucracy able to raise taxes from the whole kingdom. Didn't of course happen in one go, but the coming to power of the Earl of Richmond was the key moment.
Joined the Tory Party, leavin Ukip, for this exact moment.
Hope you Cameroons are delighted with your 24% x
If Johnson fails on Brexit, will you admit that it’s Brexit that is the problem, not the leader?
There is no "failing" on Brexit. Either they honour their word, or do not.
If Boris doesn't do, then the Tory Party itself will have to go.
And if Nigel Farage became PM and didn’t honour his word?
You seem to be suggesting it is some impossibility. It really isn't. We're leaving a treaty and resuming a status we've had for 1,000 years. Like Australia. Canada. New Zealand. Telling us we can't have it when we can see it in front of us won't wash.
A status we’ve had for 1,000 years? What would that be, because it certainly isn’t the UK.
The guy is obviously a fruitcake and not a very bright on either. Methinks just your average xenophobic Little Englander with little knowledge of history.
Yes, never mind the UK. It doesn't really make sense to talk about England before 1485 (a date that appears to have cropped up more than once this morning).
What has 1485 got to do with England?
If you mean, that was the foundation of England as a unitary state, then I fear that you underestimate the reign of Aethelstan from 924-939.
If you mean the date England absorbed Wales, I fear you're still wrong as the relevant dates might be given as 1277, 1284, or 1536 with the abolition of the Principalities of North and West Wales and the Marcher Lordships.
If you mean, the moment a Welshman (for a given value of 'Welshman') became King of England, I can't fault you.
As I'm sure you know I mean the coming of the Tudor dynasty, and the establishment of a centralised army and bureaucracy able to raise taxes from the whole kingdom. Didn't of course happen in one go, but the coming to power of the Earl of Richmond was the key moment.
Not really. It made it possible, but it wasn't the key moment. You might say that was the financial reform of Edward IV. But more pertinently it was the work of Thomas Cromwell.
Edit - and Henry VII would not have thanked you for referring to a 'Tudor dynasty' (see the work of S. B. Chrimes).
“Aiieeeeoooaaah . . . ” warbles Ann, like she always does for a while before she’s about to speak, but before she can actually say anything the music starts and Nigel hisses that we should all turn our backs. So we do. Although after a while I tug on his sleeve.
Mr. Doof, not unlike the French ruling Languedoc or Brittany (assuming you're referring to Wales).
It seems odd to me, even as a historically interested person, that so many are willing to bang on about the past rather than deal with the reality of today. Byzantium/Constantinople was the heart of the Eastern Roman Empire for over a thousand years. Yet the idea of 'restoring' it now is clearly crackers.
Time moves on. What profit is there to be had by clinging to ancient grudges rather than seeking trying to learn the lessons that were painfully learnt in the past, so we might take advantage of the lesson without incurring the pain?
Should I be loathing Normans for the Harrying/Harrowing of the North? Or despise Lancastrians because they 'cheated' in 1485?
I realise you're almost certainly not one of said people, but the topic is baffling to me.
I agree entirely.
You can learn from history. But it is not a science. We can be worried that the political world in Europe and North America is splitting into two extremes, similar Europe in the period between the two world wars. But to rely on what we learnt historically from this period, in order to steer us away from fascism is a dangerous game, because so much of the environment is totally different.
Equally, wanting to take the UK back to its status at the start of 1970 is absurd, as the rest of the world has moved on. England no longer holds the football world cup, Russia has lost most of it's empire, and I am allowed to walk one mile to visit friends without getting shot dead.
LOL, you lot just cannot get over that one extremely dodgy win. Lived on it for over 50 years. UK is just like English football team , second rate.
The last Tory leader elected was a safe pair of hands. It turned out not to be safe. Surrounded by the right team, Boris can work, as he did in London.
Surrounded by the "right team" almost anyone can work. There's not much about Johnson's mayorship of London that gives me confidence he would make a good prime minister. He can delegate, but that's about his only leadership skill. Both his time in London and as FM were pretty chaotic, with poor decisions.
Assuming his supporters haven't borrowed Boris's own habit of telling the audience exactly what they want to hear (or what he thinks they want to hear), we are going to the land of the fantastic renegotiation for our summer holidays.
Even though we have a WA which has been agreed by both sides and which the EU have said can't be changed, we are now supposed to believe Boris will not only get a new deal but said deal will "unite the nation".
To quote a certain Mr V Meldrew "I don't believe it".
I cannot believe people are so stupid and desperate to believe or want to believe this nonsense. I suppose if you are a Conservative looking at a 20% poll rating and being taken over by the Faragists you'll believe any line a decent con-man (no pun intended) will peddle.
When we get to early October, what then? What if there's no deal on the horizon? Will Boris say something like "look, chaps, the Deal's just round the corner. Give me six more months and it'll be sorted.". That's up there with "the dog ate my homework" or "the cheque's in the post". Farage will have a field day and those so enthusiastic of Boris now will have had first hand experience of the saying "buying a pig in a poke".
Let's lay off HYUFD. The great things about PB over the past 15.5 years is that it has been a place where people of all political persuasions on all issues have been able to feel welcome and participate. He might be a minority voice on the site but it is a reminder as to why so many in the Conservative Party are backing someone like Boris as leader.
Is he not able to look after himself/herself. You voice your opinions you have to expect replies.
The last Tory leader elected was a safe pair of hands. It turned out not to be safe. Surrounded by the right team, Boris can work, as he did in London.
The last Tory leader elected was a safe pair of hands. It turned out not to be safe. Surrounded by the right team, Boris can work, as he did in London.
Leaving aside the well-documented downside of his time as Mayor, I'd suggest the skillset of that job is further away from PM than is that of Foreign Secretary.
In the GLA he brought in a lot of high paid people who were in effect both political and civil servants who did all the bits of the job that didn't interest him (which was most of it).
Much harder to hide behind others like that when you are PM. And harder to make political officer appointments.
Is it much harder? Surely the resources to do that are more plentiful?
The last Tory leader elected was a safe pair of hands. It turned out not to be safe. Surrounded by the right team, Boris can work, as he did in London.
LOL, Cuckoo
I'm under no illusions about his many shortcomings, but to be fair, I didn't rate Cameron either, and he managed to bumble along without major incident.
A landslide victory for Boris surely makes it even harder for Tory MPs to deny him the keys to Downing Street. To look at a landslide victory and say "no" would cause an even bigger rupture than the likes of Boles.
Doesn't mean they can't threaten to pull the plug weeks later.
Ah, the old 'don't believe in anything' garbage. That normally means, as in this case, 'doesn't believe in my irrational and extreme view'.
But enjoy yourself while you can. It's hilarious to watch you putting your naïve trust in Boris, of all people - he's actually somewhat to the left of Cameron and of me, inasmuch as he has any political position.
I know Boris is a social liberal.
But for now, national independence is the goal and he is best placed to deliver. Once completed, we can move onto our next projects. My post-Brexit priorities are grammar schools, the death penalty, foreign aid and strict immigration controls like Australia.
I look forward to pushing the party in that direction.
Good to hear that foreign aid is one of your priorities.
Grammar schools and death penalty too. Where all the evidence is on the other side, but, you know, let's feel righteous and reactionary.
A landslide victory for Boris surely makes it even harder for Tory MPs to deny him the keys to Downing Street. To look at a landslide victory and say "no" would cause an even bigger rupture than the likes of Boles.
Doesn't mean they can't threaten to pull the plug weeks later.
Tory MPs don't constitute a majority in parliament.
Comments
Which sounds dodgy to me - I don't think you can be a member of two different associations at the same time in other parties (although Labour did used to have lots of multiple voting via its affiliated orgs)
He's a rambling buffoon who throws in the odd bit of Latin. That people who know he's selling bullshit and buying it anyway is ridiculous.
Edited extra bit: just laid a tiny sum on May's exit date on Betfair (1.01 for the July-September section).
Even Shakespeare has bent to celebrate:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/03/leicester-city-kings-of-england-richard-iii
I then received a telephone call from the 'Boris Team' seeking my vote. I politely told him I will not vote for either; Hunt because of his ill judged comments on hunting and Boris for attacking business and telling Airbus to FO, the company that my son in law works for in a senior position. I also said that I could not agree under any circumstances with a no deal position and the very anti business rhetoric.
He said that no deal is only to influence the negotiations but that Boris will get a deal and unite the nation. He said that Boris will be a very pro business and strongly pro the Union which he will fight tooth and claw to strengthen and preserve
I suggested he could do some good if he went to the North East fishing communities and confirm his attitude to the CFP and also a trip to Airbus factory here in North Wales would not be amiss.
From the conversation I think Boris is taking Hyufd and Viceroy for fools to gain office and will swivel to TM deal with superficial changes agreed with the EU to get the deal done,
I have become quite used to Hyufd and UKIP infiltrators in attacking my membership and to tell me I am not a real conservatives and should leave to allow the party to be taken over by their Farage tribute group.
I have news for them. I am not leaving and will continue to seek compromise and sensible solutions that are 100% pro business, pro the Union, and have a social conscience
Throwing rotten tomatoes from the cheap seats as Boris waffles and blusters may well be entertaining. The pitchforks and torches will follow fairly quickly.
Being challenged here on PB is good training for him. If he succeeds in his aim to be elected he will face much worse.
I voted remain but accept the referendum result. TM deal was fine by me, no deal is not
However, if Boris' time as Foreign Secretary is to be any guide I suspect he'll be the spiritual successor to the Angeli.
I'd like to be wrong, of course. But I think he's a disreputable incompetent.
Dr. Foxy, the dubious ways of Leicester have been noted, and added to the name of Lancashire in the long memories of Yorkshire. Prepare thyself for 500 years of not necessarily serious grudge-holding!
And not knowing how he will actually govern and successful he might be is an argument to support anyone, Corbyn included. More so in his case as unlike Boris he has no office holding bar opposition to judge his likely success .
"Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this championship.
Although, in truth, a York man in my heart
(Though some of course dispute I have that valve)
The Minstermen this term have shown such poor defence
They are condemnéd to the Conference."
Though after many years a Yorkshire team is finally back in the Premier League, for a year anyway
You know my wife and daughter in LA at the moment?
But that doesnt mean disquiet as his performances and reliance on his record from 7 years ago in a very different role and environment as proof if his awesomeness, not least when some of his ardent backers will be disappointed by what other ardent backers say he will do, is not reasonable.
It's a disgrace...
What seems clear is that the only new members the Tories are likely to attract any time soon will be of the Viceroy persuasion, and that will have consequences for the future of the party.
I have great sympathy for your wishes for the party, but I am not in the least optimistic.
https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/1147417284387987456?s=21
So everyone should be pleased.
Edit - now you can have yar go.
This site has already to a degree turned into an echo chamber of Conservative voting Remainers and will do so even further if others are prompted to disengage.
It is also worth noting the resilience of the 'F business' comment. Imagine a similar level gaffe in middle of a highly contested GE. Imagine the off the cuff joke comment is 'fuck the poor'.
Boris is seen as the best solution to stopping Jezza. But will Boris be allowed out during the five week GE campaign? I rather suspect not.
But I rather suspect that it is not true.
But can Boris increase Tory seats? methinks not. Indeed I expect both Labour and Tories to lose seats in the Autumn election. The question is who will lose more.
If you mean, that was the foundation of England as a unitary state, then I fear that you underestimate the reign of Aethelstan from 924-939.
If you mean the date England absorbed Wales, I fear you're still wrong as the relevant dates might be given as 1277, 1284, or 1536 with the abolition of the Principalities of North and West Wales and the Marcher Lordships.
If you mean, the moment a Welshman (for a given value of 'Welshman') became King of England, I can't fault you.
In the GLA he brought in a lot of high paid people who were in effect both political and civil servants who did all the bits of the job that didn't interest him (which was most of it).
Much harder to hide behind others like that when you are PM. And harder to make political officer appointments.
I'm glad they're ahead of the game when the Trump's great BREXIT deal with the UK is ratified with Prime Minister Farage early next year !!
Edit - and Henry VII would not have thanked you for referring to a 'Tudor dynasty' (see the work of S. B. Chrimes).
There's a cunning plan afoot ..... Oh dear !!
Play nicely .....
https://twitter.com/thetimesscot/status/1147420833150881792
I wonder how many of the Little Englanders who already voted for him are signed up to that...
Er, new thread.
“But Nigel,” I say, “I can still hear it.”
“Shut up,” says Nigel.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/my-week-a-brexit-party-mep-9gm9z6w9r
Assuming his supporters haven't borrowed Boris's own habit of telling the audience exactly what they want to hear (or what he thinks they want to hear), we are going to the land of the fantastic renegotiation for our summer holidays.
Even though we have a WA which has been agreed by both sides and which the EU have said can't be changed, we are now supposed to believe Boris will not only get a new deal but said deal will "unite the nation".
To quote a certain Mr V Meldrew "I don't believe it".
I cannot believe people are so stupid and desperate to believe or want to believe this nonsense. I suppose if you are a Conservative looking at a 20% poll rating and being taken over by the Faragists you'll believe any line a decent con-man (no pun intended) will peddle.
When we get to early October, what then? What if there's no deal on the horizon? Will Boris say something like "look, chaps, the Deal's just round the corner. Give me six more months and it'll be sorted.". That's up there with "the dog ate my homework" or "the cheque's in the post". Farage will have a field day and those so enthusiastic of Boris now will have had first hand experience of the saying "buying a pig in a poke".
We fell out with the left when they established the Bank of England.
Doesn't mean they can't threaten to pull the plug weeks later.