They are not stupid. Malevolent, perhaps, but not stupid. They know full well Boris is lying in some bits but they believe that his intent to depart by end October is sincere and liable to be carried out. And that's what they want to hear.
I worked with a lot who were definitely idiots. I suspect it is the same with other parties too. Activism is their life and only form of "enjoyment". Then there are some are very bright, in other spheres, but when it comes to their political views they are frothing loonies. Then there are (maybe used to be) some really pleasant people with well considered balanced views who want what is best for their country. I am in no doubt that choosing a PM should not be left to unelected members of parties. Very few people seem to pick up that it is a democratic outrage.
I agree with you re your last sentence. In a Parliamentary democracy MPs should make the final decision. Not members.
Tory MPs are giving the membership what they want not exercising their judgment. They are making the same mistake as those Labour MPs nominating Corbyn.
And so we get a PM and, potentially, a fundamental and far reaching shift in policy on the basis of a statistically insignificant and wholly unrepresentative group of people whose primary focus is what is best for their party. It is a democratic outrage.
But if the leader is selected by MPs, that is an even more statistically insignificant group, and even less representative. At least anyone can join and be a member if they so wish.
No. MPs represent their constituencies. The people they represent - all of them - are not statistically insignificant, far from it. Party members represent no-one. And in a Parliamentary democracy where having the confidence of Parliament matters and where legislation is enacted, an MP's ability to lead and debate and persuade in Parliament is far more important and relevant to good government than having the ability to make self-selected members feel good about themselves.
The presumption is that Farage would be keen to do a deal with Johnson and go into coalition with him. On the evidence of yesterday, he’s not planning to make it easy for him: “Mr Johnson, you can try if you want to, but I will not be put back in my box by you or anybody else.”
First, he made clear that any version of Theresa May’s deal that Boris manages to pass, however amended, will be declared a betrayal and will serve to supercharge the Brexit Party: “It’s not a deal, its Monsieur Barnier’s new European Treaty… it must never pass in this country.” ....
Farage has worked out Boris Johnson’s greatest potential weakness among this audience: he’s a quintessential metropolitan liberal.
You obviously have not been reading my posts where I have made clear Boris is not a Faragiste and will do the FTA for GB most voters want, not the No Deal Farage wants. Remember Boris voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3.
Had Farage been leading the Leave campaign in 2016 not Boris thsn Leave would likely have lost
Highly amusing reading the indignation of those who told us that No Deal was a disaster on the scale of Chernobyl at the thought that some civil servants' August annual leave might get postponed. Can you make up your minds folks? Either its a real national disaster or its the sort of thing where you can sack it off for two weeks in Mykynos even if your department isn't prepared - it can't be both.
Oh yes it can! It is a national disaster that is about to hit us and even destroy us (some of us).
But the decisions that are being taken in advance by the next prime minister are such utter nonsense, and so unrealistic, that it is impossible to make any preparations at all.
So it makes sense to go away on holiday while the Conservative fools and idiots continue to play politics.
Highly amusing reading the indignation of those who told us that No Deal was a disaster on the scale of Chernobyl at the thought that some civil servants' August annual leave might get postponed. Can you make up your minds folks? Either its a real national disaster or its the sort of thing where you can sack it off for two weeks in Mykynos even if your department isn't prepared - it can't be both.
Nonsense, of course you can still take actions to mitigate a disaster. If No Deal is in for a 4% hit to the economy with civil service on holidays and 3.5% without the holidays and a bit more planning, then both are disasters but we should still expect the MPs and civil service to help reduce the number of problems, as any private company would expect its employees to do.
They are not stupid. Malevolent, perhaps, but not stupid. They know full well Boris is lying in some bits but they believe that his intent to depart by end October is sincere and liable to be carried out. And that's what they want to hear.
I worked with a lot who were definitely idiots. I suspect it is the same with other parties too. Activism is their life and only form of "enjoyment". Then there are some are very bright, in other spheres, but when it comes to their political views they are frothing loonies. Then there are (maybe used to be) some really pleasant people with well considered balanced views who want what is best for their country. I am in no doubt that choosing a PM should not be left to unelected members of parties. Very few people seem to pick up that it is a democratic outrage.
I agree with you re your last sentence. In a Parliamentary democracy MPs should make the final decision. Not members.
Tory MPs are giving the membership what they want not exercising their judgment. They are making the same mistake as those Labour MPs nominating Corbyn.
And so we get a PM and, potentially, a fundamental and far reaching shift in policy on the basis of a statistically insignificant and wholly unrepresentative group of people whose primary focus is what is best for their party. It is a democratic outrage.
No it isn't, parties are not just collections of MPs they are made up of hard working activists too and for the toil they put in fundraising and campaigning at election time they at least deserve a say in electing the party leader and given MPs elected Hague and May their judgement is not flawless either
Electing a leader is not - or should not be - some sort of prize for hard work.
Parliament matters. MPs should make the decision and they need to think about the interests of all their constituents and the country not simply the party.
No Deal is going to be inflicted on us simply to make some Tory pensioners feel better. If you can't see how damaging such a way of making a decision is to democracy, to Parliament, to our system of Parliamentary democracy and, indeed, to your party, I really don't know what else to say.
Highly amusing reading the indignation of those who told us that No Deal was a disaster on the scale of Chernobyl at the thought that some civil servants' August annual leave might get postponed. Can you make up your minds folks? Either its a real national disaster or its the sort of thing where you can sack it off for two weeks in Mykynos even if your department isn't prepared - it can't be both.
It's typical of the way that almost everyone in politics these days attempts to use practically every new development to somehow support their point of view, even if contradictory as you say. All sides are guilty of it.
Before I gave up making videos to start an insurance company, I was going to do one on the death of nuance.
I'm not an enormous fan of President Trump. But I could point to half a dozen things he's done, and say that, that's something I agree with. And I could say the same of the EU or any number of people I have disagreements with.
It's like we either have to agree with everything or nothing.
Londoners poorer than most British regions, only NE significantly poorer. Shows the lie about the metropolitan elite. People in cities are more educated and younger, not elites.
I wonder what @HYUFD is going to do when Swinson is Prime Minister and Boris loses his seat.
He’ll be sharing with us the latest poll showing that at the next GE the Tories under Francois are certain to sweep the country. Or he’ll have joined Farage in the BXP.
The presumption is that Farage would be keen to do a deal with Johnson and go into coalition with him. On the evidence of yesterday, he’s not planning to make it easy for him: “Mr Johnson, you can try if you want to, but I will not be put back in my box by you or anybody else.”
First, he made clear that any version of Theresa May’s deal that Boris manages to pass, however amended, will be declared a betrayal and will serve to supercharge the Brexit Party: “It’s not a deal, its Monsieur Barnier’s new European Treaty… it must never pass in this country.” ....
Farage has worked out Boris Johnson’s greatest potential weakness among this audience: he’s a quintessential metropolitan liberal.
You obviously have not been reading my posts where I have made clear Boris is not a Faragiste and will do the FTA for GB most voters want, not the No Deal Farage wants. Remember Boris voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3.
Had Farage been leading the Leave campaign in 2016 not Boris thsn Leave would likely have lost
Boris has the secret of making time run more slowly?
That is part of it, but I think it is more simple. He sees no advantages to telling the truth and has no moral compass to guide him to so lying becomes the default rather than exception.
Certainly no moral compass. Would not recognise one of those if you rammed it up his jacksy.
Ouch.
On his lying I can immediately categorise into 4 main types - but won't at this juncture.
It merits a thesis at one of our better institutions. "The relentless mendacity of Donald J Trump: How and Why he does it."
Highly amusing reading the indignation of those who told us that No Deal was a disaster on the scale of Chernobyl at the thought that some civil servants' August annual leave might get postponed. Can you make up your minds folks? Either its a real national disaster or its the sort of thing where you can sack it off for two weeks in Mykynos even if your department isn't prepared - it can't be both.
It's typical of the way that almost everyone in politics these days attempts to use practically every new development to somehow support their point of view, even if contradictory as you say. All sides are guilty of it.
Before I gave up making videos to start an insurance company, I was going to do one on the death of nuance.
I'm not an enormous fan of President Trump. But I could point to half a dozen things he's done, and say that, that's something I agree with. And I could say the same of the EU or any number of people I have disagreements with.
It's like we either have to agree with everything or nothing.
The only thing I think I have agreed with Trump on was his initial reluctance to hire John Bolton because of his horrible tache (I could cite other reasons too, such as the fact that Bolton is a vile warmongering psychopath, but the tache is as good a reason as any). But then he went and hired Bolton anyway. Other than that, I think that Trump has been wrong about everything.
On the subject of intelligence, I’ve always thought I was reasonably intelligent but after 10 years of struggling to remove the plastic cover of a disposable razor I discover it comes off sideways. So much for my expensive engineering education!
Londoners poorer than most British regions, only NE significantly poorer. Shows the lie about the metropolitan elite. People in cities are more educated and younger, not elites.
The highest family wealth per adult in that table is in the South East, filled with London commuters.
While the richest quarter in London are more than double that wealth still
"London commuters" are not Londoners. When the rest of the country bitches about Londoners they should really reserve their ire for the home counties, which is where the real wealth and power resides.
The only thing I think I have agreed with Trump on was his initial reluctance to hire John Bolton because of his horrible tache (I could cite other reasons too, such as the fact that Bolton is a vile warmongering psychopath, but the tache is as good a reason as any). But then he went and hired Bolton anyway. Other than that, I think that Trump has been wrong about everything.
His not drinking alcohol is a sort of correct thing. God knows what he'd be like if he did!
They are not stupid. Malevolent, perhaps, but not stupid. They know full well Boris is lying in some bits but they believe that his intent to depart by end October is sincere and liable to be carried out. And that's what they want to hear.
I worked with a lot who were definitely idiots. I suspect it is the same with other parties too. Activism is their life and only form of "enjoyment". Then there are some are very bright, in other spheres, but when it comes to their political views they are frothing loonies. Then there are (maybe used to be) some really pleasant people with well considered balanced views who want what is best for their country. I am in no doubt that choosing a PM should not be left to unelected members of parties. Very few people seem to pick up that it is a democratic outrage.
I agree with you re your last sentence. In a Parliamentary democracy MPs should make the final decision. Not members.
Tory MPs are giving the membership what they want not exercising their judgment. They are making the same mistake as those Labour MPs nominating Corbyn.
And so we get a PM and, potentially, a fundamental and far reaching shift in policy on the basis of a statistically insignificant and wholly unrepresentative group of people whose primary focus is what is best for their party. It is a democratic outrage.
No it isn't, parties are not just collections of MPs they are made up of hard working activists too and for the toil they put in fundraising and campaigning at election time they at least deserve a say in electing the party leader and given MPs elected Hague and May their judgement is not flawless either
Electing a leader is not - or should not be - some sort of prize for hard work.
Parliament matters. MPs should make the decision and they need to think about the interests of all their constituents and the country not simply the party.
No Deal is going to be inflicted on us simply to make some Tory pensioners feel better. If you can't see how damaging such a way of making a decision is to democracy, to Parliament, to our system of Parliamentary democracy and, indeed, to your party, I really don't know what else to say.
Well maybe if you diehard Remainers had shown a bit of respect for democracy and actually pressured MPs to implement the Leave vote 17 million voted for and vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Tory members would not feel so obliged to pick a leader not willing to rule out No Deal
Londoners poorer than most British regions, only NE significantly poorer. Shows the lie about the metropolitan elite. People in cities are more educated and younger, not elites.
The highest family wealth per adult in that table is in the South East, filled with London commuters.
While the richest quarter in London are more than double that wealth still
"London commuters" are not Londoners. When the rest of the country bitches about Londoners they should really reserve their ire for the home counties, which is where the real wealth and power resides.
And where does most of that wealth come from? Jobs and wages mainly in central London not jobs and wages in market towns and villages in the South East
Londoners poorer than most British regions, only NE significantly poorer. Shows the lie about the metropolitan elite. People in cities are more educated and younger, not elites.
The highest family wealth per adult in that table is in the South East, filled with London commuters.
While the richest quarter in London are more than double that wealth still
"London commuters" are not Londoners. When the rest of the country bitches about Londoners they should really reserve their ire for the home counties, which is where the real wealth and power resides.
And where does most of that wealth come from? Jobs and wages mainly in central London not jobs and wages in market towns and villages in the South East
So they extract wealth from London and spend it in the wealthy villages and market towns where they live.
Londoners poorer than most British regions, only NE significantly poorer. Shows the lie about the metropolitan elite. People in cities are more educated and younger, not elites.
The highest family wealth per adult in that table is in the South East, filled with London commuters.
While the richest quarter in London are more than double that wealth still
"London commuters" are not Londoners. When the rest of the country bitches about Londoners they should really reserve their ire for the home counties, which is where the real wealth and power resides.
And where does most of that wealth come from? Jobs and wages mainly in central London not jobs and wages in market towns and villages in the South East
So they extract wealth from London and spend it in the wealthy villages and market towns where they live.
Not all, the very richest own property in Kensington, Chelsea, Islington, Hampstead, Westminster, Fulham, , Battersea, Putney, Richmond Park etc.
Plus even commuters spend money in London shops, cafes, restaurants and on London transport.
Londoners poorer than most British regions, only NE significantly poorer. Shows the lie about the metropolitan elite. People in cities are more educated and younger, not elites.
The highest family wealth per adult in that table is in the South East, filled with London commuters.
While the richest quarter in London are more than double that wealth still
"London commuters" are not Londoners. When the rest of the country bitches about Londoners they should really reserve their ire for the home counties, which is where the real wealth and power resides.
And where does most of that wealth come from? Jobs and wages mainly in central London not jobs and wages in market towns and villages in the South East
So they extract wealth from London and spend it in the wealthy villages and market towns where they live.
Is having a well-paid job now a crime in Brexit Island?
Highly amusing reading the indignation of those who told us that No Deal was a disaster on the scale of Chernobyl at the thought that some civil servants' August annual leave might get postponed. Can you make up your minds folks? Either its a real national disaster or its the sort of thing where you can sack it off for two weeks in Mykynos even if your department isn't prepared - it can't be both.
It's typical of the way that almost everyone in politics these days attempts to use practically every new development to somehow support their point of view, even if contradictory as you say. All sides are guilty of it.
Before I gave up making videos to start an insurance company, I was going to do one on the death of nuance.
I'm not an enormous fan of President Trump. But I could point to half a dozen things he's done, and say that, that's something I agree with. And I could say the same of the EU or any number of people I have disagreements with.
It's like we either have to agree with everything or nothing.
The only thing I think I have agreed with Trump on was his initial reluctance to hire John Bolton because of his horrible tache (I could cite other reasons too, such as the fact that Bolton is a vile warmongering psychopath, but the tache is as good a reason as any). But then he went and hired Bolton anyway. Other than that, I think that Trump has been wrong about everything.
Changing the tax status of carried interest to make it (more like) ordinary income. That was a stain on the entire US tax system that enable private equity managers to earn billions while paying pennies in tax.
They are not stupid. Malevolent, perhaps, but not stupid. They know full well Boris is lying in some bits but they believe that his intent to depart by end October is sincere and liable to be carried out. And that's what they want to hear.
I worked with a lot who were definitely idiots. I suspect it is the same with other parties too. Activism is their life and only form of "enjoyment". Then there are some are very bright, in other spheres, but when it comes to their political views they are frothing loonies. Then there are (maybe used to be) some really pleasant people with well considered balanced views who want what is best for their country. Very few people seem to pick up that it is a democratic outrage.
I agree with you re your last sentence. In a Parliamentary democracy MPs should make the final decision. Not members.
Tory MPs are giving the membership what they want not exercising their judgment. They are making the same mistake as those Labour MPs nominating Corbyn.
And so we get a PM and, potentially, a fundamental and far reaching shift in policy on the basis of a statistically insignificant and wholly unrepresentative group of people whose primary focus is what is best for their party. It is a democratic outrage.
No it isn't, parties are not just collections of MPs they are made up of hard working activists too and for the toil they put in fundraising and campaigning at election time they at least deserve a say in electing the party leader and given MPs elected Hague and May their judgement is not flawless either
Electing a leader is not - or should not be - some sort of prize for hard work.
Parliament matters. MPs should make the decision and they need to think about the interests of all their constituents and the country not simply the party.
No Deal is going to be inflicted on us simply to make some Tory pensioners feel better. If you can't see how damaging such a way of making a decision is to democracy, to Parliament, to our system of Parliamentary democracy and, indeed, to your party, I really don't know what else to say.
Well maybe if you diehard Remainers had shown a bit of respect for democracy and actually pressured MPs to implement the Leave vote 17 million voted for and vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Tory members would not feel so obliged to pick a leader not willing to rule out No Deal
How long do you suggest 2016 is valid for HY, before it’s dated and brexit needs a fresh mandate?
They are not stupid. Malevolent, perhaps, but not stupid. They know full well Boris is lying in some bits but they believe that his intent to depart by end October is sincere and liable to be carried out. And that's what they want to hear.
I worked with a lot who were definitely idiots. I suspect it is the same with other parties too. Activism is their life and only form of "enjoyment". Then there are some are very bright, in other spheres, but when it comes to their political views they are frothing loonies. Then there are (maybe used to be) some really pleasant people with well considered balanced views who want what is best for their country. I am in no doubt that choosing a PM should not be left to unelected members of parties. Very few people seem to pick up that it is a democratic outrage.
I agree with you re your last sentence. In a Parliamentary democracy MPs should make the final decision. Not members.
And so we get a PM and, potentially, a fundamental and far reaching shift in policy on the basis of a statistically insignificant and wholly unrepresentative group of people whose primary focus is what is best for their party. It is a democratic outrage.
No it isn't, parties are not just collections of MPs they are made up of hard working activists too and for the toil they put in fundraising and campaigning at election time they at least deserve a say in electing the party leader and given MPs elected Hague and May their judgement is not flawless either
Electing a leader is not - or should not be - some sort of prize for hard work.
Parliament matters. MPs should make the decision and they need to think about the interests of all their constituents and the country not simply the party.
No Deal is going to be inflicted on us simply to make some Tory pensioners feel better. If you can't see how damaging such a way of making a decision is to democracy, to Parliament, to our system of Parliamentary democracy and, indeed, to your party, I really don't know what else to say.
Well maybe if you diehard Remainers had shown a bit of respect for democracy and actually pressured MPs to implement the Leave vote 17 million voted for and vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Tory members would not feel so obliged to pick a leader not willing to rule out No Deal
But it was the ERG that sunk Brexit by the end of March. They could have had it, they chose not to.
Before I gave up making videos to start an insurance company, I was going to do one on the death of nuance.
I'm not an enormous fan of President Trump. But I could point to half a dozen things he's done, and say that, that's something I agree with. And I could say the same of the EU or any number of people I have disagreements with.
It's like we either have to agree with everything or nothing.
My problem with Trump is the person not the policies.
His toxicity as a role model is IMO doing enormous damage globally. It will be difficult to reverse this even if he gets only 4 years.
I have sympathy with Trump on monetary policy. But even then he misses a trick. In my opinion, what he should be saying is that the economy has finally strengthened on his watch to the point that the Fed felt that they could increase interest rates.
I have sympathy with Trump on monetary policy. But even then he misses a trick. In my opinion, what he should be saying is that the economy has finally strengthened on his watch to the point that the Fed felt that they could increase interest rates.
Isn't he saying the opposite now - that Powell and co are risking destroying his recovery by normalising interest rates.
I agree with you re your last sentence. In a Parliamentary democracy MPs should make the final decision. Not members.
Tory MPs are giving the membership what they want not exercising their judgment. They are making the same mistake as those Labour MPs nominating Corbyn.
And so we get a PM and, potentially, a fundamental and far reaching shift in policy on the basis of a statistically insignificant and wholly unrepresentative group of people whose primary focus is what is best for their party. It is a democratic outrage.
No it isn't, parties are not just collections of MPs they are made up of hard working activists too and for the toil they put in fundraising and campaigning at election time they at least deserve a say in electing the party leader and given MPs elected Hague and May their judgement is not flawless either
Electing a leader is not - or should not be - some sort of prize for hard work.
Parliament matters. MPs should make the decision and they need to think about the interests of all their constituents and the country not simply the party.
No Deal is going to be inflicted on us simply to make some Tory pensioners feel better. If you can't see how damaging such a way of making a decision is to democracy, to Parliament, to our system of Parliamentary democracy and, indeed, to your party, I really don't know what else to say.
Well maybe if you diehard Remainers had shown a bit of respect for democracy and actually pressured MPs to implement the Leave vote 17 million voted for and vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Tory members would not feel so obliged to pick a leader not willing to rule out No Deal
Look at the beams in your party's eyes first.
It was your lot who refused to vote for the WA. I was perfectly prepared to respect democracy and leave with a deal, as the Brexiteers promised.
But when they insisted that a deal was the work of a devil and only a no deal was true Brexit I thought well why should I put up with something I don't want when they won"t even vote for what they claim to want.
Now I'd like to have a vote on this apparently pure version of Brexit. You know like in a democracy. It's your lot who are denying voters that option whilr treating as sacrosanct the votes of a tiny few and telling the rest of us that any damage we suffer is the price we must pay for your party's obsession with a No Deal Brexit.
I have sympathy with Trump on monetary policy. But even then he misses a trick. In my opinion, what he should be saying is that the economy has finally strengthened on his watch to the point that the Fed felt that they could increase interest rates.
Isn't he saying the opposite now - that Powell and co are risking destroying his recovery by normalising interest rates.
I think he was right that the fed didn't put rates up before the 2016 election for political reasons. But yes, he's now behaving like any other selfish politician who only cares about winning the next election.
15 year old Cori Gauff defeats Venus Williams 6:4 6:4
Tennis is seeing a real changing of the guard. Still, who would have thought the Williams sisters, Federer and the like, would have managed to stay at the top of the game for so long?
How long do you suggest 2016 is valid for HY, before it’s dated and brexit needs a fresh mandate?
Until its implemented.
I am not here to be rude or anything, but what you just said there is absolutely laughable. A vote cannot date?
There is stalling, out dating the mandate itching for a rematch. Not just remainers, Farage wants the rerun too. No brexit is the birth of his neo Thatcherite party. The only people who don’t want the rerun and likely remain result is the Conservative party, no brexit slaughters them.
Yet basis on which 2016 was won, there is absolutely no legitimacy in the pain of no deal brexit.
How long do you suggest 2016 is valid for HY, before it’s dated and brexit needs a fresh mandate?
Until its implemented.
Yes, with a caveat.
If there were to be a General Election where avowedly pro-Remain (i.e. the LibDems, Greens or SNP) were to be elected with a majority (and I would argue it would need both votes and seats), we could not simply wave it away.
“Almost unique” is a phrase that makes my teeth grate.
You are unique. Or you are not.
There is no “almost”
I don't like it either. But still worse is:
"one of the only..."
My pet hate is the way so many 'academic' types begin their comments with 'So...'. When did that become a thing?
I can date my own first exposure to this ghastly habit to the year 2005 when a colleague (a graduate of an American university) greeted me one morning a propos of nothing with "so what's new?" It drives me up the wall. It is used in radio/TV interviews as an assertion that "I (the speaker) am an expert".
They are not stupid. Malevolent, perhaps, but not stupid. They know full well Boris is lying in some bits but they believe that his intent to depart by end October is sincere and liable to be carried out. And that's what they want to hear.
I worked with a lot who were definitely idiots. I suspect it is the same with other parties too. Activism is their life and only form of "enjoyment". Then there are country. Very few people seem to pick up that it is a democratic outrage.
I agree with you re your last sentence. In a Parliamentary democracy MPs should make the final decision. Not members.
Tory MPs are giving the membership what they want not exercising their judgment. They are making the same mistake as those Labour MPs nominating Corbyn.
And so we get a PM and, potentially, a fundamental and far reaching shift in policy on the basis of a statistically insignificant and wholly unrepresentative group of people whose primary focus is what is best for their party. It is a democratic outrage.
No it isn't, parties are not just collections of MPs they are made up of hard working activists too and for the toil they put in fundraising and campaigning at election time they at least deserve a say in electing the party leader and given MPs elected Hague and May their judgement is not flawless either
Electing a leader is not - or should not be - some sort of prize for hard work.
Parliament matters. MPs should make the decision and they need to think about the interests of all their constituents and the country not simply the party.
No Deal is going to be inflicted on us simply to make some Tory pensioners feel better. If you can't see how damaging such a way of making a decision is to democracy, to Parliament, to our system of Parliamentary democracy and, indeed, to your party, I really don't know what else to say.
Well maybe if you diehard Remainers had shown a bit of respect for democracy and actually pressured MPs to implement the Leave vote 17 million voted for and vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Tory members would not feel so obliged to pick a leader not willing to rule out No Deal
How long do you suggest 2016 is valid for HY, before it’s dated and brexit needs a fresh mandate?
Brexit has not even been implemented yet, let alone needing a fresh mandate
I agree with you re your last sentence. In a Parliamentary democracy MPs should make the final decision. Not members.
Tory MPs are giving the membership what they want not exercising their judgment. They are making the same mistake as those Labour MPs nominating Corbyn.
And so we get a PM and, potentially, a fundamental and far reaching shift in policy on the basis of a statistically insignificant and wholly unrepresentative group of people whose primary focus is what is best for their party. It is a democratic outrage.
No it isn't, parties are not just collections of MPs they are made up of hard working activists too and for the toil they put in fundraising and campaigning at election time they at least deserve a say in electing the party leader and given MPs elected Hague and May their judgement is not flawless either
Electing a leader is not - or should not be - some sort of prize for hard work.
Parliament matters. MPs should make the decision and they need to think about the interests of all their constituents and the country not simply the party.
No Deal is going to be inflicted on us simply to make some Tory pensioners feel better. If you can't see how damaging such a way of making a decision is to democracy, to Parliament, to our system of Parliamentary democracy and, indeed, to your party, I really don't know what else to say.
Well maybe if you diehard Remainers had shown a bit of respect for democracy and actually pressured MPs to implement the Leave vote 17 million voted for and vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Tory members would not feel so obliged to pick a leader not willing to rule out No Deal
How long do you suggest 2016 is valid for HY, before it’s dated and brexit needs a fresh mandate?
How about this, we have a vote on the EU every five years, just like a general election. If we decide to stay we stay, but if just once we decide to leave, we leave, we're out. After all, people are asked to check in on every other aspect of the government every five years.
Doesn't sound fair? Well neither does postponing the 2016 result ad infinitum until enough people can say the mandate has expired before it has even been carried out.
I agree with you re your last sentence. In a Parliamentary democracy MPs should make the final decision. Not members.
Tory MPs are giving the membership what they want not exercising their judgment. They are making the same mistake as those Labour MPs nominating Corbyn.
And so we get a PM and, potentially, a fundamental and far reaching shift in policy on the basis of a statistically insignificant and wholly unrepresentative group of people whose primary focus is what is best for their party. It is a democratic outrage.
No it isn't, parties are not just collections of MPs they are made up of ither
Electing a leader is not - or should not be - some sort of prize for hard work.
Parliament matters. MPs should make the decision and they need to think about the interests of all their constituents and the country not simply the party.
No Deal is going to be inflicted on us simply to make some Tory pensioners feel better. If you can't see how damaging such a way of making a decision is to democracy, to Parliament, to our system of Parliamentary democracy and, indeed, to your party, I really don't know what else to say.
Well maybe if you diehard Remainers had shown a bit of respect for democracy and actually pressured MPs to implement the Leave vote 17 million voted for and vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Tory members would not feel so obliged to pick a leader not willing to rule out No Deal
Look at the beams in your party's eyes first.
It was your lot who refused to vote for the WA. I was perfectly prepared to respect democracy and leave with a deal, as the Brexiteers promised.
But when they insisted that a deal was the work of a devil and only a no deal was true Brexit I thought well why should I put up with something I don't want when they won"t even vote for what they claim to want.
Now I'd like to have a vote on this apparently pure version of Brexit. You know like in a democracy. It's your lot who are denying voters that option whilr treating as sacrosanct the votes of a tiny few and telling the rest of us that any damage we suffer is the price we must pay for your party's obsession with a No Deal Brexit.
No thanks.
The majority of Tory Mps voted for the Withdrawal Agreement, the majority of Labour and LD MPs voted against the Withdrawal Agreement
They are not stupid. Malevolent, perhaps, but not stupid. They know full well Boris is lying in some bits but they believe that his intent to depart by end October is sincere and liable to be carried out. And that's what they want to hear.
I worked with a lot who were definitely idiots. I suspect it is the same with other parties too. Activism is their life and only form of "enjoyment". Then there are some are very bright, in other spheres, but when it comes to their political views they are frothing loonies. Then there are (maybe used to be) some really pleasant people with well considered balanced views who want what is best for their country. I am in no doubt that choosing a PM should not be left to unelected members of parties. Very few people seem to pick up that it is a democratic outrage.
I agree with you re your last sentence. In a Parliamentary democracy MPs should make the final decision. Not members.
Tory MPs are giving the membership what they want not exercising their judgment. They are making the same mistake as those Labour MPs nominating Corbyn.
And so we get a PM and, potentially, a fundamental and far reaching shift in policy on the basis of a statistically insignificant and wholly unrepresentative group of people whose primary focus is what is best for their party. It is a democratic outrage.
No it isn't, parties are not just collections of MPs they are made up of hard working activists too and for the toil they put in fundraising and campaigning at election time they at least deserve a say in electing the party leader and given MPs elected Hague and May their judgement is not flawless either
Electing a leader is not - or should not be - some sort of prize for hard work.
Parliament matters. MPs should make the decision and they need to think about the interests of all their constituents and the country not simply the party.
No Deal is going to be inflicted on us simply to make some Tory pensioners feel better. If you can't see how damaging such a way of making a decision is to democracy, to Parliament, to our system of Parliamentary democracy and, indeed, to your party, I really don't know what else to say.
Well maybe if you diehard Remainers had shown a bit of respect for democracy and actually pressured MPs to implement the Leave vote 17 million voted for and vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Tory members would not feel so obliged to pick a leader not willing to rule out No Deal
They are not stupid. Malevolent, perhaps, but not stupid. They know full well Boris is lying in some bits but they believe that his intent to depart by end October is sincere and liable to be carried out. And that's what they want to hear.
I worked with a lot who were definitely idiots. I suspect it is the same with other parties too. Activism is their life and only form of "enjoyment". Then there are country. Very few people seem to pick up that it is a democratic outrage.
I agree with you re your last sentence. In a Parliamentary democracy MPs should make the final decision. Not members.
Tory MPs are giving the membership what they want not exercising their judgment. They are making the same mistake as those Labour MPs nominating Corbyn.
And so we get a PM and, potentially, a fundamental and far reaching shift in policy on the basis of a statistically insignificant and wholly unrepresentative group of people whose primary focus is what is best for their party. It is a democratic outrage.
No it isn't, parties are not just collections of MPs they are made up of hard working activists too and for the toil they put in fundraising and campaigning at election time they at least deserve a say in electing the party leader and given MPs elected Hague and May their judgement is not flawless either
Electing a leader is not - or should not be - some sort of prize for hard work.
Parliament matters. MPs should make the decision and they need to think about the interests of all their constituents and the country not simply the party.
No Deal is going to be inflicted on us simply to make some Tory pensioners feel better. If you can't see how damaging such a way of making a decision is to democracy, to Parliament, to our system of Parliamentary democracy and, indeed, to your party, I really don't know what else to say.
Well maybe if you diehard Remainers had shown a bit of respect for democracy and actually pressured MPs to implement the Leave vote 17 million voted for and vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Tory members would not feel so obliged to pick a leader not willing to rule out No Deal
How long do you suggest 2016 is valid for HY, before it’s dated and brexit needs a fresh mandate?
Brexit has not even been implemented yet, let alone needing a fresh mandate
In my world failed projects are usually revalidated and scrapped. Sacking the PM doesn't fix anything...
Yet even as Curtice points out 64% of Scottish Leave voters would still vote No to independence in the latest polls and only 51% of Remain voting Scots would vote Yes even despite Brexit
MPs who try and stop brexit are fulfilling their obligation to their constituents if they believe in leaving the EU is against their best interests. They have no obligation to implement a referendum result when they realize it’s down right stupid.
Highly amusing reading the indignation of those who told us that No Deal was a disaster on the scale of Chernobyl at the thought that some civil servants' August annual leave might get postponed. Can you make up your minds folks? Either its a real national disaster or its the sort of thing where you can sack it off for two weeks in Mykynos even if your department isn't prepared - it can't be both.
Can't think of anyone claiming No Deal will be a disaster on the scale of Chernobyl, you just made it up .
However, a lot of people do believe that voluntarily leaving the EU with no deal is going to inflict economic harm on many people and businesses that don't deserve it. I suppose, like Hunt, you'll be writing them off as collateral damage for the cause.
I doubt many people believe that civil servants being blocked from taking their leave is going to affect the consequences much one way of the other.
The majority of Tory Mps voted for the Withdrawal Agreement, the majority of Labour and LD MPs voted against the Withdrawal Agreement
This is absurd - oppositions opposing, whatever next ?
The Conservative Government negotiated the WA, not Labour, the LDs or the SNP. The same Conservative Party, which via an arrangement with the DUP, has the confidence of the Commons.
The truth was May couldn't sell her WA to her own side yet now apparently it's everyone else's fault.
I'd also point out that even if all the LDs had voted FOR the WA at all three votes, it would still have failed all three times.
They are not stupid. Malevolent, perhaps, but not stupid. They know full well Boris is lying in some bits but they believe that his intent to depart by end October is sincere and liable to be carried out. And that's what they want to hear.
I worked with a lot who were definitely idiots. I suspect it is the same with other parties too. Activism is their life and only form of "enjoyment". Then there are some are very bright, in other spheres, but when it comes to their political views they are frothing loonies. Then there are (maybe used to be) some really pleasant people with well considered balanced views who want
I agree with you re your last sentence. In a Parliamentary democracy MPs should make the final decision. Not members.
Tory MPs are giving the membership what they want not exercising their judgment. They are making the same mistake as those Labour MPs nominating Corbyn.
And so we get a PM and, potentially, a fundamental and far reaching shift in policy on the basis of a statistically insignificant and wholly unrepresentative group of people whose primary focus is what is best for their party. It is a democratic outrage.
No it isn't, parties are not just collections of MPs they are made up of hard working activists too and for the toil they put in fundraising and campaigning at election time they at least deserve a say in electing the party leader and given MPs elected Hague and May their judgement is not flawless either
Electing a leader is not - or should not be - some sort of prize for hard work.
Parliament matters. MPs should make the decision and they need to think about the interests of all their constituents and the country not simply the party.
No Deal is going to be inflicted on us simply to make some Tory pensioners feel better. If you can't see how damaging such a way of making a decision is to democracy, to Parliament, to our system of Parliamentary democracy and, indeed, to your party, I really don't know what else to say.
Well maybe if you diehard Remainers had shown a bit of respect for democracy and actually pressured MPs to implement the Leave vote 17 million voted for and vote for the Withdrawal Agreement Tory members would not feel so obliged to pick a leader not willing to rule out No Deal
You’re at it again! Try typing “diehard synonyms” into your favoured search engine. It will do wonders for your credibility. Do you have “diehard” on autocomplete? Is it the only word you know?
Yet even as Curtice points out 64% of Scottish Leave voters would still vote No to independence in the latest polls and only 51% of Remain voting Scots would vote Yes even despite Brexit
The majority of Tory Mps voted for the Withdrawal Agreement, the majority of Labour and LD MPs voted against the Withdrawal Agreement
This is absurd - oppositions opposing, whatever next ?
The Conservative Government negotiated the WA, not Labour, the LDs or the SNP. The same Conservative Party, which via an arrangement with the DUP, has the confidence of the Commons.
The truth was May couldn't sell her WA to her own side yet now apparently it's everyone else's fault.
I'd also point out that even if all the LDs had voted FOR the WA at all three votes, it would still have failed all three times.
Starmer said that he wouldn't seek to amend the WA - so clearly the detail of that was fine. But he still didn't vote for it.
That is opposition for the sake of opposition - not principled at all.
The majority of Tory Mps voted for the Withdrawal Agreement, the majority of Labour and LD MPs voted against the Withdrawal Agreement
This is absurd - oppositions opposing, whatever next ?
The Conservative Government negotiated the WA, not Labour, the LDs or the SNP. The same Conservative Party, which via an arrangement with the DUP, has the confidence of the Commons.
The truth was May couldn't sell her WA to her own side yet now apparently it's everyone else's fault.
I'd also point out that even if all the LDs had voted FOR the WA at all three votes, it would still have failed all three times.
Starmer said that he wouldn't seek to amend the WA - so clearly the detail of that was fine. But he still didn't vote for it.
That is opposition for the sake of opposition - not principled at all.
The problem was the blank cheque of the political declaration, particularly as her successor as PM was unknown at the time.
Labour tried to pin down the FTA with a CU but without success. The WA wasn't a problem. But it was an open door to a big problem. That is why Labour opposed it.
Comments
Remember Boris voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3.
Had Farage been leading the Leave campaign in 2016 not Boris thsn Leave would likely have lost
(Probably doomed them now.)
But the decisions that are being taken in advance by the next prime minister are such utter nonsense, and so unrealistic, that it is impossible to make any preparations at all.
So it makes sense to go away on holiday while the Conservative fools and idiots continue to play politics.
Parliament matters. MPs should make the decision and they need to think about the interests of all their constituents and the country not simply the party.
No Deal is going to be inflicted on us simply to make some Tory pensioners feel better. If you can't see how damaging such a way of making a decision is to democracy, to Parliament, to our system of Parliamentary democracy and, indeed, to your party, I really don't know what else to say.
I'm not an enormous fan of President Trump. But I could point to half a dozen things he's done, and say that, that's something I agree with. And I could say the same of the EU or any number of people I have disagreements with.
It's like we either have to agree with everything or nothing.
While the richest quarter in London are more than double that wealth still
Ouch.
On his lying I can immediately categorise into 4 main types - but won't at this juncture.
It merits a thesis at one of our better institutions. "The relentless mendacity of Donald J Trump: How and Why he does it."
In fact I am at a bit of a loose end so ...
There was no chance of it passing , this way he looks fair and then can allow a motion on an emergency debate after the summer .
Until the Tory leadership is over it’s unlikely any amendments would pass .
Plus even commuters spend money in London shops, cafes, restaurants and on London transport.
Is having a well-paid job now a crime in Brexit Island?
His toxicity as a role model is IMO doing enormous damage globally. It will be difficult to reverse this even if he gets only 4 years.
8? - let's not even contemplate that.
It was your lot who refused to vote for the WA. I was perfectly prepared to respect democracy and leave with a deal, as the Brexiteers promised.
But when they insisted that a deal was the work of a devil and only a no deal was true Brexit I thought well why should I put up with something I don't want when they won"t even vote for what they claim to want.
Now I'd like to have a vote on this apparently pure version of Brexit. You know like in a democracy. It's your lot who are denying voters that option whilr treating as sacrosanct the votes of a tiny few and telling the rest of us that any damage we suffer is the price we must pay for your party's obsession with a No Deal Brexit.
No thanks.
There is stalling, out dating the mandate itching for a rematch. Not just remainers, Farage wants the rerun too. No brexit is the birth of his neo Thatcherite party. The only people who don’t want the rerun and likely remain result is the Conservative party, no brexit slaughters them.
Yet basis on which 2016 was won, there is absolutely no legitimacy in the pain of no deal brexit.
If there were to be a General Election where avowedly pro-Remain (i.e. the LibDems, Greens or SNP) were to be elected with a majority (and I would argue it would need both votes and seats), we could not simply wave it away.
https://twitter.com/WhatScotsThink/status/1145591221013929984
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48833570
It drives me up the wall. It is used in radio/TV interviews as an assertion that "I (the speaker) am an expert".
Doesn't sound fair? Well neither does postponing the 2016 result ad infinitum until enough people can say the mandate has expired before it has even been carried out.
However, a lot of people do believe that voluntarily leaving the EU with no deal is going to inflict economic harm on many people and businesses that don't deserve it. I suppose, like Hunt, you'll be writing them off as collateral damage for the cause.
I doubt many people believe that civil servants being blocked from taking their leave is going to affect the consequences much one way of the other.
The Conservative Government negotiated the WA, not Labour, the LDs or the SNP. The same Conservative Party, which via an arrangement with the DUP, has the confidence of the Commons.
The truth was May couldn't sell her WA to her own side yet now apparently it's everyone else's fault.
I'd also point out that even if all the LDs had voted FOR the WA at all three votes, it would still have failed all three times.
That is opposition for the sake of opposition - not principled at all.
New Fred
Labour tried to pin down the FTA with a CU but without success. The WA wasn't a problem. But it was an open door to a big problem. That is why Labour opposed it.