So Boris sweeps the board, the preferred candidate of Tory members, Tory voters and the general public as a whole. Raab is second favourite with Tory members, Hunt is second favourite with Tory voters and Javid is second favourite with the general public.
Rory is 4th with the public ahead of Gove and Raab but last with those who would consider voting Tory and Tory members.
So looks like Rory could get an invite to Glastonbury or Newsnight Review or the Last Leg based on his campaign but would not actually do much about winning the Tories a general election anytime soon
Feels like Raab likely to be only elimination tomorrow.
Disagree as I do with everything he says nevertheless I thought he was genuine last night and the only non bullshit merchant there apart from Stewart.
Raab is the only one with a feasible plan. Admittedly it's an affront to democracy but it a) could work (in the sense of getting us out of the EU) and b) hasn't yet been tried.
Stewart's citizens assemblies are a bizarre idea that don't get us closer to sorting Brexit at all.
Raab has a feasible plan? Exactly what is it as leaving without a deal and without the legal paperwork in place to leave without a deal really doesn't sound like a plan to me....
Feasible purely in the sense that it could get us to leave. It would be a disastrous outcome.
Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.
It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
Pretty much everything that he did after Thriller was dross, but his work with the Jackson 5 and early solo stuff showed exceptional talent.
As I said, the airbrushing is ongoing. Give it a while and even Thriller and the early solo and J5 stuff will be forgotten.
Maggie Thatcher fans take note.
That's why her stuff is elevated to religious level adoration.
Even religious adoration fades. Saint Francis was, like Thatcher, a revolutionary and a superstar of his age, but nowadays folk have a vague idea that he fed garden birds out of his hand.
Wouldn’t surprise me if the divine Maggie is remembered via that dire biopic, or even her hideously hypocritical victory speech in Downing Street when she referred, idiotically, to Saint Francis.
Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.
It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
You may be right - but no point us betting on it with that time frame.
I have noticed an impact. Certainly his legacy is tainted. I watched the film recently and it is devastating. I'm a big Michael fan (still am) but you could not sit through that film and not conclude that he was fortunate to stay out of jail.
Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.
It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
Pretty much everything that he did after Thriller was dross, but his work with the Jackson 5 and early solo stuff showed exceptional talent.
As I said, the airbrushing is ongoing. Give it a while and even Thriller and the early solo and J5 stuff will be forgotten.
Maggie Thatcher fans take note.
That's why her stuff is elevated to religious level adoration.
Even religious adoration fades. Saint Francis was, like Thatcher, a revolutionary and a superstar of his age, but nowadays folk have a vague idea that he fed garden birds out of his hand.
Wouldn’t surprise me if the divine Maggie is remembered via that dire biopic, or even her hideously hypocritical victory speech in Downing Street when she referred, idiotically, to Saint Francis.
I suppose it depends if she maintains Jesus level popularity or St Francis levels. But a remembrance that she was a lowly mortal would not go amiss sooner rather than later.
Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.
It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
Pretty much everything that he did after Thriller was dross, but his work with the Jackson 5 and early solo stuff showed exceptional talent.
As I said, the airbrushing is ongoing. Give it a while and even Thriller and the early solo and J5 stuff will be forgotten.
Maggie Thatcher fans take note.
That's why her stuff is elevated to religious level adoration.
Even religious adoration fades. Saint Francis was, like Thatcher, a revolutionary and a superstar of his age, but nowadays folk have a vague idea that he fed garden birds out of his hand.
Wouldn’t surprise me if the divine Maggie is remembered via that dire biopic, or even her hideously hypocritical victory speech in Downing Street when she referred, idiotically, to Saint Francis.
St Francis of Assisi didn’t write much – and certainly not the prayer that Margaret Thatcher quoted outside No 10 Downing Street in 1979, “Where there is discord, may we bring harmony…”.
That was written in 1912, in French, and published in a pious magazine edited by Fr Esther Bouquerel. It was attributed to St Francis in 1927 through its having been printed on the back of a picture of the saint
I can't imagine anyone would stop listening to Beethoven if he turned out to be a sadistic mass murderer. Nor should they, I think. What good would it do?
But if you do believe in boycotting composers because you object to their behaviour, I don't think the quality of their music should come into it.
I really do think it is graded rather than binary.
For example, imagine that Hitler's watercolours were absolutely first class. By any measure amongst the finest ever painted.
Would they be hanging in the Louvre? I would suggest not.
If his watercolours had been absolutely first class, Hitler would probably have chosen a different..er..career path. If in that scenario he'd still been your average antisemitic 1930s loonball (eg Pound, Eliot, Chanel), yes, they'd be in the Louvre.
The better the press Stewart gets the more MPs will back him. Their eyes are on the GE and want someone who has a chance of winning it. That would be Stewart.
Of course the membership has no such long term vision.
Some do, but I fear not enough. The party has been too heavily infiltrated by headbangers
Disagree
If Raab were massively popular you’d be right. They’re just backing the “loveable old rogue” at the moment. Needs “the guy I’d like my daughter to marry” to beat that
Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.
It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
Pretty much everything that he did after Thriller was dross, but his work with the Jackson 5 and early solo stuff showed exceptional talent.
As I said, the airbrushing is ongoing. Give it a while and even Thriller and the early solo and J5 stuff will be forgotten.
Maggie Thatcher fans take note.
That's why her stuff is elevated to religious level adoration.
Even religious adoration fades. Saint Francis was, like Thatcher, a revolutionary and a superstar of his age, but nowadays folk have a vague idea that he fed garden birds out of his hand.
Wouldn’t surprise me if the divine Maggie is remembered via that dire biopic, or even her hideously hypocritical victory speech in Downing Street when she referred, idiotically, to Saint Francis.
Thatcher will be remembered as one of the 4 greatest PMs of the 20th century along with Lloyd George, Churchill and Attlee. You may dislike her but her historical legacy and impact on Britain will be there for centuries
Johnson is a hit with Brexit Party voters, more than the Conservatives, and massive negatives with everyone else. Others suffer from large Don't Knows, apart from Gove, whom everyone dislikes. Javid comes out best on a balanced ticket.
It figures. If you voted Leave expecting Brexit be a success, you are likely to believe Johnson to be a competent and trustworthy leader.
Mott is a lying .... just claimed the country voted to leave without a deal, the man who doesn’t want to declare his offshore investments and makes money out of chaos
IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.
This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.
Michael Jackson is a good example. He is so massive and influential an entertainer that (IMO) his stuff will still be played and listened to and watched for generations. Paedophilia notwithstanding.
Shakin Stevens OTOH - "Shaky" - would probably see his music airbrushed out of the popular consciousness in the event of something such as driving without due care and attention.
Favourite tracks by these two?
Beat It. This Ole House.
Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.
It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
Same as every artist, it's all opinion. I like some of his songs, don't like others.
I also like many Michael Jackson songs, he still has his committed fans and he has influenced some of the biggest artists of today like Bieber and Timberlake whatever the dodgy private life he had
Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.
It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
Pretty much everything that he did after Thriller was dross, but his work with the Jackson 5 and early solo stuff showed exceptional talent.
As I said, the airbrushing is ongoing. Give it a while and even Thriller and the early solo and J5 stuff will be forgotten.
Maggie Thatcher fans take note.
That's why her stuff is elevated to religious level adoration.
Even religious adoration fades. Saint Francis was, like Thatcher, a revolutionary and a superstar of his age, but nowadays folk have a vague idea that he fed garden birds out of his hand.
Wouldn’t surprise me if the divine Maggie is remembered via that dire biopic, or even her hideously hypocritical victory speech in Downing Street when she referred, idiotically, to Saint Francis.
Thatcher will be remembered as one of the 4 greatest PMs of the 20th century along with Lloyd George, Churchill and Attlee. You may dislike her but her historical legacy and impact on Britain will be there for centuries
And people remember completely nebbish PMs - if you said "Bonar Law" to the man on the street he would usually say "PM" even if that was all he knew about him. Strange how Fatcha hatred clouds the judgment.
The better the press Stewart gets the more MPs will back him. Their eyes are on the GE and want someone who has a chance of winning it. That would be Stewart.
Of course the membership has no such long term vision.
Some do, but I fear not enough. The party has been too heavily infiltrated by headbangers
Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.
It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
Pretty much everything that he did after Thriller was dross, but his work with the Jackson 5 and early solo stuff showed exceptional talent.
As I said, the airbrushing is ongoing. Give it a while and even Thriller and the early solo and J5 stuff will be forgotten.
Maggie Thatcher fans take note.
That's why her stuff is elevated to religious level adoration.
Even religious adoration fades. Saint Francis was, like Thatcher, a revolutionary and a superstar of his age, but nowadays folk have a vague idea that he fed garden birds out of his hand.
Wouldn’t surprise me if the divine Maggie is remembered via that dire biopic, or even her hideously hypocritical victory speech in Downing Street when she referred, idiotically, to Saint Francis.
Thatcher will be remembered as one of the 4 greatest PMs of the 20th century along with Lloyd George, Churchill and Attlee. You may dislike her but her historical legacy and impact on Britain will be there for centuries
Doubtless the legacy and impact of Adolf Hitler will also remain for quite some time.
I got the chance to catch up with the C4 debate - My view:
Gove: All me, me, me. Totally self-absorbed and insincere. (3)
Hunt: Dull, dull, dull. (4)
Javid: Ditto (4)
Rabb: Sincere and genuine but potentially quite thick. (6)
Rory The Tory: Rather dashing, clever and genuine but too inexperienced. Next leader but one? (7)
If the party turn on him, which is quite possible, he may find himself isolated. Has he the support of his local association? Maybe he is possibly the next leader of another party!
Johnson is a hit with Brexit Party voters, more than the Conservatives, and massive negatives with everyone else. Others suffer from large Don't Knows, apart from Gove, whom everyone dislikes. Javid comes out best on a balanced ticket.
It figures. If you voted Leave expecting Brexit be a success, you are likely to believe Johnson to be a competent and trustworthy leader.
Edit. I should say Javid comes out least badly. His negatives substantially outweigh his positives. Brexit Party supporters despise Stewart, who doesn't get enough support from other party supporters to make up. 60% don't know however.
The polls of party members at leadership election time are a million times more accurate than those of the general public on hypothetical referendums or elections in my opinion
Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.
It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much nforming to the social mores of our time.
Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
Pretty much everything that he did after Thriller was dross, but his work with the Jackson 5 and early solo stuff showed exceptional talent.
As I said, the airbrushing is ongoing. Give it a while and even Thriller and the early solo and J5 stuff will be forgotten.
Maggie Thatcher fans take note.
That's why her stuff is elevated to religious level adoration.
Even religious adoration fades. Saint Francis was, like Thatcher, a revolutionary and a superstar of his age, but nowadays folk have a vague idea that he fed garden birds out of his hand.
Wouldn’t surprise me if the divine Maggie is remembered via that dire biopic, or even her hideously hypocritical victory speech in Downing Street when she referred, idiotically, to Saint Francis.
Thatcher will be remembered as one of the 4 greatest PMs of the 20th century along with Lloyd George, Churchill and Attlee. You may dislike her but her historical legacy and impact on Britain will be there for centuries
Doubtless the legacy and impact of Adolf Hitler will also remain for quite some time.
You can hardly compare Thatcher to Hitler, one committed one of the biggest genocides in history the other took us from one of the lowest GDP per capita in Europe to one of the highest
The Lib Dem online hustings, taking place right now, are clearly failing to excite the PB commentariat and, I suspect, anyone at all.
They are... the opposite of punchy. And maybe a bit of measured reflection is what we need right now, but I can't help regretting that Layla Moran isn't standing.
Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.
It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
Pretty much everything that he did after Thriller was dross, but his work with the Jackson 5 and early solo stuff showed exceptional talent.
As I said, the airbrushing is ongoing. Give it a while and even Thriller and the early solo and J5 stuff will be forgotten.
Maggie Thatcher fans take note.
That's why her stuff is elevated to religious level adoration.
Even religious adoration fades. Saint Francis was, like Thatcher, a revolutionary and a superstar of his age, but nowadays folk have a vague idea that he fed garden birds out of his hand.
Wouldn’t surprise me if the divine Maggie is remembered via that dire biopic, or even her hideously hypocritical victory speech in Downing Street when she referred, idiotically, to Saint Francis.
Thatcher will be remembered as one of the 4 greatest PMs of the 20th century along with Lloyd George, Churchill and Attlee. You may dislike her but her historical legacy and impact on Britain will be there for centuries
Just showed some of the C4 debate to my wife (leftish but not a big follower of politics). She recognised Gove as former Education Sec and thought Hunt might have been as well. She didn't like Gove, thought he was just saying what he thought people wanted to hear. She liked Javid and Stewart best.
Johnson is a hit with Brexit Party voters, more than the Conservatives, and massive negatives with everyone else. Others suffer from large Don't Knows, apart from Gove, whom everyone dislikes. Javid comes out best on a balanced ticket.
It figures. If you voted Leave expecting Brexit be a success, you are likely to believe Johnson to be a competent and trustworthy leader.
And another edit, based on this polling. Conservative MPs and members selecting Johnson to save the party are depending on Brexit Party supporters switching to the Tories faster than Lib Dems and Greens switch to Labour, while at the same time losing all their seats in Scotland, again.
Nope 892 Tory members confirm they haven't got a clue how the real world works and that Brexit rules everything else.
The party is screwed and I almost hope Boris calls an election to see his reaction the following day when Nigel stands a candidate in every none ERG member's constituency...
Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.
It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
Pretty much everything that he did after Thriller was dross, but his work with the Jackson 5 and early solo stuff showed exceptional talent.
As I said, the airbrushing is ongoing. Give it a while and even Thriller and the early solo and J5 stuff will be forgotten.
Maggie Thatcher fans take note.
That's why her stuff is elevated to religious level adoration.
Even religious adoration fades. Saint Francis was, like Thatcher, a revolutionary and a superstar of his age, but nowadays folk have a vague idea that he fed garden birds out of his hand.
Wouldn’t surprise me if the divine Maggie is remembered via that dire biopic, or even her hideously hypocritical victory speech in Downing Street when she referred, idiotically, to Saint Francis.
Thatcher will be remembered as one of the 4 greatest PMs of the 20th century along with Lloyd George, Churchill and Attlee. You may dislike her but her historical legacy and impact on Britain will be there for centuries
Sadly probably true.
The Big Bang introduced casino capitalism and sowed the seeds of crunch.
Thatcher will be remembered as one of the 4 greatest PMs of the 20th century along with Lloyd George, Churchill and Attlee. You may dislike her but her historical legacy and impact on Britain will be there for centuries
Not sure I entirely agree. I'd put Asquith up there instead of Lloyd George in all honesty. There were three radical reforming Governments in the 20th Century, the Asquith Liberals of 1906, Attlee's Labour in 1945 and Thatcher's Conservatives in 1979. All transformed society and the impact of what they did resonated long after they passed.
Churchill is an exception to that - I'd argue his peacetime record is patchy at best but as the inspirational leader of probably the most talented Government of the century, the Wartime Coalition, he deserves a place in the pantheon primarily for our survival between 1940 and 41 when we were to all intents and purposes alone against the Germans and their allies.
The transformational nature of his Government was more related to the exigencies of the time and the actions of man like Eden, Morrison and Bevin and less well known but significant ministers such as Kingsley Wood, Lord Woolton and Oliver Lyttleton in the Government but his leadership of that Government was a huge factor.
Just showed some of the C4 debate to my wife (leftish but not a big follower of politics). She recognised Gove as former Education Sec and thought Hunt might have been as well. She didn't like Gove, thought he was just saying what he thought people wanted to hear. She liked Javid and Stewart best.
This has all the makings of a Tory meltdown come the Autumn .
Scottish Tory MPs know a no deal will see them collecting their P45s come the next election .
They can’t rely on the unionist vote to save them as those can just vote Lib Dem or Labour .
If you asked Sturgeon what she wanted for Christmas , Bozo and a no deal would have been it.
The Tories are screwed. The ERG nutjobs , the BP and Farage , the moderate no to no deal and a small ardent second vote group . There’s no way you can unite those groups .
When the bloodbath starts I expect some defections to the Lib Dems and their working majority evaporating quickly .
Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.
It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much nforming to the social mores of our time.
Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
Pretty much everything that he did after Thriller was dross, but his work with the Jackson 5 and early solo stuff showed exceptional talent.
As I said, the airbrushing is ongoing. Give it a while and even Thriller and the early solo and J5 stuff will be forgotten.
Maggie Thatcher fans take note.
That's why her stuff is elevated to religious level adoration.
Even religious adoration fades. Saint Francis was, like Thatcher, a revolutionary and a superstar of his age, but nowadays folk have a vague idea that he fed garden birds out of his hand.
Wouldn’t surprise me if the divine Maggie is remembered via that dire biopic, or even her hideously hypocritical victory speech in Downing Street when she referred, idiotically, to Saint Francis.
Thatcher will be remembered as one of the 4 greatest PMs of the 20th century along with Lloyd George, Churchill and Attlee. You may dislike her but her historical legacy and impact on Britain will be there for centuries
Doubtless the legacy and impact of Adolf Hitler will also remain for quite some time.
You can hardly compare Thatcher to Hitler, one committed one of the biggest genocides in history the other took us from one of the lowest GDP per capita in Europe to one of the highest
Just on Michael Jackson and his relevance to the Tory leader contest.
Sometimes a person can do something which catches lightening in a bottle and if it's witnessed by the world it catapults them to a stratospheric level of acclaim and stardom, and does so almost instantaneously. Thus Jackson's live debut of the moonwalk to Billie Jean at the Motown awards in 83. And in politics Tony Blair's "she was the people's princess" in the sun in the cemetery in 97, the catch in the voice, the pitch perfect facial expression. After those respective events MJ was untouchable and so, in a different way, was TB.
I think something of that nature is required from one of the Boris Johnson challengers in the BBC debate tomorrow. A moment of game changing impact. It is highly unlikely but it would be great if it happens. Rory is the obvious one to look to for 'The Moment' but I have a feeling that if it comes it will come courtesy of Michael Gove.
Just on Michael Jackson and his relevance to the Tory leader contest.
Sometimes a person can do something which catches lightening in a bottle and if it's witnessed by the world it catapults them to a stratospheric level of acclaim and stardom, and does so almost instantaneously. Thus Jackson's live debut of the moonwalk to Billie Jean at the Motown awards in 83. And in politics Tony Blair's "she was the people's princess" in the sun in the cemetery in 97, the catch in the voice, the pitch perfect facial expression. After those respective events MJ was untouchable and so, in a different way, was TB.
I think something of that nature is required from one of the Boris Johnson challengers in the BBC debate tomorrow. A moment of game changing impact. It is highly unlikely but it would be great if it happens. Rory is the obvious one to look to for 'The Moment' but I have a feeling that if it comes it will come courtesy of Michael Gove.
I don’t see anything changing the outcome . The membership have already decided they want Bozo .
We’ve reached Trumpian levels of devotion from the death cult members .
This has all the makings of a Tory meltdown come the Autumn .
Scottish Tory MPs know a no deal will see them collecting their P45s come the next election .
They can’t rely on the unionist vote to save them as those can just vote Lib Dem or Labour .
If you asked Sturgeon what she wanted for Christmas , Bozo and a no deal would have been it.
The Tories are screwed. The ERG nutjobs , the BP and Farage , the moderate no to no deal and a small ardent second vote group . There’s no way you can unite those groups .
When the bloodbath starts I expect some defections to the Lib Dems and their working majority evaporating quickly .
Presumably they would hope that a suitable non-BOris candidate getting a decent showing among the membership at least would help convince sufficient support to remain behind them even as no deal becomes policy to save some number of them.
This has all the makings of a Tory meltdown come the Autumn .
Scottish Tory MPs know a no deal will see them collecting their P45s come the next election .
They can’t rely on the unionist vote to save them as those can just vote Lib Dem or Labour .
If you asked Sturgeon what she wanted for Christmas , Bozo and a no deal would have been it.
The Tories are screwed. The ERG nutjobs , the BP and Farage , the moderate no to no deal and a small ardent second vote group . There’s no way you can unite those groups .
When the bloodbath starts I expect some defections to the Lib Dems and their working majority evaporating quickly .
Why would Unionists in Scotland vote Labour? We are continually being told that Labour will do a deal with the SNP to form a Govt and that deal will be another Indy Ref.
The next Tory leader has got to put the right back together and that means moving from Liberal Conservatism to Social Conservatism. The belief that May would do it meant she had very high poll ratings at first, but them the true May came to the fore.
Just on Michael Jackson and his relevance to the Tory leader contest.
Sometimes a person can do something which catches lightening in a bottle and if it's witnessed by the world it catapults them to a stratospheric level of acclaim and stardom, and does so almost instantaneously. Thus Jackson's live debut of the moonwalk to Billie Jean at the Motown awards in 83. And in politics Tony Blair's "she was the people's princess" in the sun in the cemetery in 97, the catch in the voice, the pitch perfect facial expression. After those respective events MJ was untouchable and so, in a different way, was TB.
I think something of that nature is required from one of the Boris Johnson challengers in the BBC debate tomorrow. A moment of game changing impact. It is highly unlikely but it would be great if it happens. Rory is the obvious one to look to for 'The Moment' but I have a feeling that if it comes it will come courtesy of Michael Gove.
I don’t see anything changing the outcome . The membership have already decided they want Bozo .
Quite so. Any arguments or moments against him will just be seen as elites or the mainstream trying to prevent them their prize.
The better the press Stewart gets the more MPs will back him. Their eyes are on the GE and want someone who has a chance of winning it. That would be Stewart.
They also want someone who can unite the party, which isn't Stewart, unfortunately.
It isn't Boris either, of course, but they haven't figured that out yet.
well who is it then? Not one of the people who is in the contest, that's for sure.
The better the press Stewart gets the more MPs will back him. Their eyes are on the GE and want someone who has a chance of winning it. That would be Stewart.
They also want someone who can unite the party, which isn't Stewart, unfortunately.
It isn't Boris either, of course, but they haven't figured that out yet.
well who is it then? Not one of the people who is in the contest, that's for sure.
Some divisions cannot be healed. Much as I dislike Boris and no deal that probably is the way to preserve as much unity as is possible from which to rebuild.
This has all the makings of a Tory meltdown come the Autumn .
Scottish Tory MPs know a no deal will see them collecting their P45s come the next election .
They can’t rely on the unionist vote to save them as those can just vote Lib Dem or Labour .
If you asked Sturgeon what she wanted for Christmas , Bozo and a no deal would have been it.
The Tories are screwed. The ERG nutjobs , the BP and Farage , the moderate no to no deal and a small ardent second vote group . There’s no way you can unite those groups .
When the bloodbath starts I expect some defections to the Lib Dems and their working majority evaporating quickly .
I'm sceptical about a "Tory meltdown" in Scotland. Some of them might sit on their hands, like Tories everywhere did in 1997, and a few might vote Lib Dem, but generally I think most Scottish Tory voters will continue wanting a Scottish Tory MP.
Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.
It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
Pretty much everything that he did after Thriller was dross, but his work with the Jackson 5 and early solo stuff showed exceptional talent.
As I said, the airbrushing is ongoing. Give it a while and even Thriller and the early solo and J5 stuff will be forgotten.
Maggie Thatcher fans take note.
That's why her stuff is elevated to religious level adoration.
Even religious adoration fades. Saint Francis was, like Thatcher, a revolutionary and a superstar of his age, but nowadays folk have a vague idea that he fed garden birds out of his hand.
Wouldn’t surprise me if the divine Maggie is remembered via that dire biopic, or even her hideously hypocritical victory speech in Downing Street when she referred, idiotically, to Saint Francis.
Thatcher will be remembered as one of the 4 greatest PMs of the 20th century along with Lloyd George, Churchill and Attlee. You may dislike her but her historical legacy and impact on Britain will be there for centuries
Sadly probably true.
The Big Bang introduced casino capitalism and sowed the seeds of crunch.
You can hardly compare Thatcher to Hitler, one committed one of the biggest genocides in history the other took us from one of the lowest GDP per capita in Europe to one of the highest
But you've just gone and done it. You've compared Thatcher to Hitler. Not sure pleading satire will save you.
Am enjoying the Thatcher doc series BTW. Good use of the licence fee. Wouldn't get a programme like that on UK Gold.
Johnson is a hit with Brexit Party voters, more than the Conservatives, and massive negatives with everyone else. Others suffer from large Don't Knows, apart from Gove, whom everyone dislikes. Javid comes out best on a balanced ticket.
It figures. If you voted Leave expecting Brexit be a success, you are likely to believe Johnson to be a competent and trustworthy leader.
And another edit, based on this polling. Conservative MPs and members selecting Johnson to save the party are depending on Brexit Party supporters switching to the Tories faster than Lib Dems and Greens switch to Labour, while at the same time losing all their seats in Scotland, again.
And if they don't choose Johnson they don't get back any votes from the Brexit Party, and depending on who it is they will likely lose even more, and Lib Dems and Greens will still be free to switch to Labour. They are losing their Scottish seats because of direct transfer to the Brexit Party. The idea that there are hordes of remainers who will suddenly vote Tory to make up the difference from the loss of conservatives is the unicorn of unicorns.
Here's one big Ruth Davidson fan (Chris Deerin, not Pat Kane) who now thinks the game's a bogey.
Hasn't he been saying that since 2016?
Deerin's been a bit to an fro, he was puffing up Ruth's chances of becoming next FM as recently as April. I've been half expecting him to liquesce into Rorymania at any minute.
If his watercolours had been absolutely first class, Hitler would probably have chosen a different..er..career path. If in that scenario he'd still been your average antisemitic 1930s loonball (eg Pound, Eliot, Chanel), yes, they'd be in the Louvre.
A very good point. If he'd been a good painter he would probably have been a painter. The world suffered for (the inadequacy of) his art.
Johnson is a hit with Brexit Party voters, more than the Conservatives, and massive negatives with everyone else. Others suffer from large Don't Knows, apart from Gove, whom everyone dislikes. Javid comes out best on a balanced ticket.
It figures. If you voted Leave expecting Brexit be a success, you are likely to believe Johnson to be a competent and trustworthy leader.
And another edit, based on this polling. Conservative MPs and members selecting Johnson to save the party are depending on Brexit Party supporters switching to the Tories faster than Lib Dems and Greens switch to Labour, while at the same time losing all their seats in Scotland, again.
And if they don't choose Johnson they don't get back any votes from the Brexit Party, and depending on who it is they will likely lose even more, and Lib Dems and Greens will still be free to switch to Labour. They are losing their Scottish seats because of direct transfer to the Brexit Party. The idea that there are hordes of remainers who will suddenly vote Tory to make up the difference from the loss of conservatives is the unicorn of unicorns.
It's hard to see why the Tories are so convinced that Johnson is an election winner. His campaigning technique of hiding away and refusing to answer any questions seems very unlikely to carry him to a general election victory.
Johnson is a hit with Brexit Party voters, more than the Conservatives, and massive negatives with everyone else. Others suffer from large Don't Knows, apart from Gove, whom everyone dislikes. Javid comes out best on a balanced ticket.
It figures. If you voted Leave expecting Brexit be a success, you are likely to believe Johnson to be a competent and trustworthy leader.
And another edit, based on this polling. Conservative MPs and members selecting Johnson to save the party are depending on Brexit Party supporters switching to the Tories faster than Lib Dems and Greens switch to Labour, while at the same time losing all their seats in Scotland, again.
And if they don't choose Johnson they don't get back any votes from the Brexit Party, and depending on who it is they will likely lose even more, and Lib Dems and Greens will still be free to switch to Labour. They are losing their Scottish seats because of direct transfer to the Brexit Party. The idea that there are hordes of remainers who will suddenly vote Tory to make up the difference from the loss of conservatives is the unicorn of unicorns.
It's hard to see why the Tories are so convinced that Johnson is an election winner. His campaigning technique of hiding away and refusing to answer any questions seems very unlikely to carry him to a general election victory.
I didn't say he would win. It isn't so much Johnson is an election winner, just everyone else is a certain election loser.
Comments
Rory is 4th with the public ahead of Gove and Raab but last with those who would consider voting Tory and Tory members.
So looks like Rory could get an invite to Glastonbury or Newsnight Review or the Last Leg based on his campaign but would not actually do much about winning the Tories a general election anytime soon
Wouldn’t surprise me if the divine Maggie is remembered via that dire biopic, or even her hideously hypocritical victory speech in Downing Street when she referred, idiotically, to Saint Francis.
I have noticed an impact. Certainly his legacy is tainted. I watched the film recently and it is devastating. I'm a big Michael fan (still am) but you could not sit through that film and not conclude that he was fortunate to stay out of jail.
St Francis of Assisi didn’t write much – and certainly not the prayer that Margaret Thatcher quoted outside No 10 Downing Street in 1979, “Where there is discord, may we bring harmony…”.
That was written in 1912, in French, and published in a pious magazine edited by Fr Esther Bouquerel. It was attributed to St Francis in 1927 through its having been printed on the back of a picture of the saint
If Raab were massively popular you’d be right. They’re just backing the “loveable old rogue” at the moment. Needs “the guy I’d like my daughter to marry” to beat that
It figures. If you voted Leave expecting Brexit be a success, you are likely to believe Johnson to be a competent and trustworthy leader.
Gove: All me, me, me. Totally self-absorbed and insincere. (3)
Hunt: Dull, dull, dull. (4)
Javid: Ditto (4)
Rabb: Sincere and genuine but potentially quite thick. (6)
Rory The Tory: Rather dashing, clever and genuine but too inexperienced and the wrong man for these Brexit times. Next leader but one? (7)
They are... the opposite of punchy. And maybe a bit of measured reflection is what we need right now, but I can't help regretting that Layla Moran isn't standing.
She didn't like Gove, thought he was just saying what he thought people wanted to hear. She liked Javid and Stewart best.
The party is screwed and I almost hope Boris calls an election to see his reaction the following day when Nigel stands a candidate in every none ERG member's constituency...
Churchill is an exception to that - I'd argue his peacetime record is patchy at best but as the inspirational leader of probably the most talented Government of the century, the Wartime Coalition, he deserves a place in the pantheon primarily for our survival between 1940 and 41 when we were to all intents and purposes alone against the Germans and their allies.
The transformational nature of his Government was more related to the exigencies of the time and the actions of man like Eden, Morrison and Bevin and less well known but significant ministers such as Kingsley Wood, Lord Woolton and Oliver Lyttleton in the Government but his leadership of that Government was a huge factor.
Scottish Tory MPs know a no deal will see them collecting their P45s come the next election .
They can’t rely on the unionist vote to save them as those can just vote Lib Dem or Labour .
If you asked Sturgeon what she wanted for Christmas , Bozo and a no deal would have been it.
The Tories are screwed. The ERG nutjobs , the BP and Farage , the moderate no to no deal and a small ardent second vote group . There’s no way you can unite those groups .
When the bloodbath starts I expect some defections to the Lib Dems and their working majority evaporating quickly .
Sometimes a person can do something which catches lightening in a bottle and if it's witnessed by the world it catapults them to a stratospheric level of acclaim and stardom, and does so almost instantaneously. Thus Jackson's live debut of the moonwalk to Billie Jean at the Motown awards in 83. And in politics Tony Blair's "she was the people's princess" in the sun in the cemetery in 97, the catch in the voice, the pitch perfect facial expression. After those respective events MJ was untouchable and so, in a different way, was TB.
I think something of that nature is required from one of the Boris Johnson challengers in the BBC debate tomorrow. A moment of game changing impact. It is highly unlikely but it would be great if it happens. Rory is the obvious one to look to for 'The Moment' but I have a feeling that if it comes it will come courtesy of Michael Gove.
We’ve reached Trumpian levels of devotion from the death cult members .
The next Tory leader has got to put the right back together and that means moving from Liberal Conservatism to Social Conservatism. The belief that May would do it meant she had very high poll ratings at first, but them the true May came to the fore.
https://twitter.com/thoughtland/status/1140687841158213633
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1140701675503665157
Am enjoying the Thatcher doc series BTW. Good use of the licence fee. Wouldn't get a programme like that on UK Gold.