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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Phukov said:

    Mr. Nabavi, polling has Don't Know beating Corbyn and May comfortably. If enough MPs abstain, no MP will make it to the next round and become leader.

    Don't Know will prove the inescapably brilliant instrument of Conservative victory. Aided by masterly activity and never alienating anyone, the Empty Chair will sweep all before it!

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/745232091550449664
    "I endorse Rory Stewart"
    It is the empty podium, the new leader of the Conservative Party.
    You can think of a better Tory leader than a big emptiness on which they can project what they wish to be true?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    TOPPING said:

    The better the press Stewart gets the more MPs will back him. Their eyes are on the GE and want someone who has a chance of winning it. That would be Stewart.

    Of course the membership has no such long term vision.

    Some do, but I fear not enough. The party has been too heavily infiltrated by headbangers
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    TOPPING said:

    The better the press Stewart gets the more MPs will back him. Their eyes are on the GE and want someone who has a chance of winning it. That would be Stewart.

    Of course the membership has no such long term vision.

    Thank goodness. Stewart is the only one with a hope in hell of saving the SCon MPs.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Sean_F said:

    JackW said:

    Cambridgeshire police investigating five further allegations relating to the Peterborough by-election - three relating to postal votes and one each relating to bribery and privacy :

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-48665324

    Peterborough has had problems with electoral fraud in the past.
    By the bloke hanging around with Corbyn & the new MP on the campaign, and at the count
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    The better the press Stewart gets the more MPs will back him. Their eyes are on the GE and want someone who has a chance of winning it. That would be Stewart.

    Of course the membership has no such long term vision.

    Thank goodness. Stewart is the only one with a hope in hell of saving the SCon MPs.
    Well indeed.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    TOPPING said:

    The better the press Stewart gets the more MPs will back him. Their eyes are on the GE and want someone who has a chance of winning it. That would be Stewart.

    They also want someone who can unite the party, which isn't Stewart, unfortunately.

    It isn't Boris either, of course, but they haven't figured that out yet.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    Don't most of his points relate to the transition only?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Don't most of his points relate to the transition only?

    Yep. Bonkers hardly begins to cover it.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847
    It is amazing how many people think no dealers will be happy with no deal.

    They will never be happy. It will be the wrong flavour of no deal, Boris did not believe enough in no deal, he is not even a proper leaver, we have been sold out, it is an establishment stitch up, we have been betrayed. No dealers exist to be angry, not to support any policy, even ones they were responsible for creating like Brexit. They will never be happy.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    In other news, I have a delicious homemade lasagne in the oven. :#
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    F1: well... Ferrari have just requested the right to have a review of the Vettel penalty.

    https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/status/1140660211977478146
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Phukov said:

    Mr. Nabavi, polling has Don't Know beating Corbyn and May comfortably. If enough MPs abstain, no MP will make it to the next round and become leader.

    Don't Know will prove the inescapably brilliant instrument of Conservative victory. Aided by masterly activity and never alienating anyone, the Empty Chair will sweep all before it!

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/745232091550449664
    Two days before the referendum? anyone remember what was was about?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Do you think it might be a good time to list Boris's prejudices or is that one for nearer the election? So far it's Gays Scots Piccaninnies Liverpudlians Turks Texans Papua New Guinians .......
    Boris is prejudiced against Turks? He is a Turk!
    Maybe he's one of them thar self hating Turks.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Gin, I'd guess it'd be when Cameron's advisers told him they had every chance of losing and he made a last minute plea for Remain.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    RobD said:

    Did you read the article? :p

    Boris Johnson once declared that “government by a Scot is just not conceivable in the current constitutional context”, with the Tory MP claiming Gordon Brown suffered from “a personal political disability” as he represented a constituency north of the Border.

    Last time I checked, Penrith and the Borders was south of the border. :D
    Last time I checked, none of the many definitions of what constitutes a Scot is representing a constituency north of the Border.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    GIN1138 said:

    Phukov said:

    Mr. Nabavi, polling has Don't Know beating Corbyn and May comfortably. If enough MPs abstain, no MP will make it to the next round and become leader.

    Don't Know will prove the inescapably brilliant instrument of Conservative victory. Aided by masterly activity and never alienating anyone, the Empty Chair will sweep all before it!

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/745232091550449664
    Two days before the referendum? anyone remember what was was about?
    It was Cameron’s final speech pleading for people to vote Remain.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    TOPPING said:

    Phukov said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Phukov said:

    Mr. Nabavi, polling has Don't Know beating Corbyn and May comfortably. If enough MPs abstain, no MP will make it to the next round and become leader.

    Don't Know will prove the inescapably brilliant instrument of Conservative victory. Aided by masterly activity and never alienating anyone, the Empty Chair will sweep all before it!

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/745232091550449664
    I've changed my mind?
    The tweet is from 3 yr ago.
    Yes, I just found a tweet of an empty podium, to follow on Morris_Dancer's joke about the Empty Chair become PM.
    Sorry everyone, I didn't mean to make you switch on the news frantically.
    LOL now listening to someone explain why they were thrown off Love Island as seeing your post I instantly tuned into R5.

    Edit: sounds like it was for use of the C word.
    Conservative?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    It is amazing how many people think no dealers will be happy with no deal.

    They will never be happy. It will be the wrong flavour of no deal, Boris did not believe enough in no deal, he is not even a proper leaver, we have been sold out, it is an establishment stitch up, we have been betrayed. No dealers exist to be angry, not to support any policy, even ones they were responsible for creating like Brexit. They will never be happy.
    Of course not. Which is why the Conservatives will never, ever out-Brexit the Brexit Party.

    It’s like trying to out-looney a lunatic. One is play-acting, the other is for real.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    F1: well... Ferrari have just requested the right to have a review of the Vettel penalty.

    https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/status/1140660211977478146

    It was the minimum penalty that could be given..
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Chris said:
    Yepp. The boy got talent.

    Luckily Tory members are way too dim to understand the difference between bluff and bona fide.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    Chris said:
    Yepp. The boy got talent.

    Luckily Tory members are way too dim to understand the difference between bluff and bona fide.
    I notice Matt didn't label him the Liz Kendall of the Tories....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    I suspect he had Lidlington’s vote in the last round, so it’s probably more his emerging from the Rory closet than a switcher.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Chris said:
    He just might be. But I’m keeping out of this market.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sky News - David Liddington endorses Rory Stewart.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    24 off the over - Bangladesh now taking the piss.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    IanB2 said:

    I suspect he had Lidlington’s vote in the last round, so it’s probably more his emerging from the Rory closet than a switcher.
    Lidington had backed Hancock. I suppose he might still have voted for Rory but I doubt it.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    edited June 2019
    Another endorsement for Stewart .

    David Lidington after having backed Hancock earlier. The notion that his support would move to Bozo seems way off the mark now.

    I think Hancock has done huge damage to his brand by his desperate arse licking job of Bozo .
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    IanB2 said:

    I suspect he had Lidlington’s vote in the last round, so it’s probably more his emerging from the Rory closet than a switcher.
    Liddington backed Hancock in Round 1
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Nigelb said:

    Chris said:
    Yepp. The boy got talent.

    Luckily Tory members are way too dim to understand the difference between bluff and bona fide.
    I notice Matt didn't label him the Liz Kendall of the Tories....
    Matt is often insightful. He has a talent for feeling the zeitgeist.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.

    This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.

    Michael Jackson is a good example. He is so massive and influential an entertainer that (IMO) his stuff will still be played and listened to and watched for generations. Paedophilia notwithstanding.

    Shakin Stevens OTOH - "Shaky" - would probably see his music airbrushed out of the popular consciousness in the event of something such as driving without due care and attention.

    Favourite tracks by these two?

    Beat It.
    This Ole House.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    A pathetic bowling performance by the West Indies.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    AndyJS said:

    A pathetic bowling performance by the West Indies.

    Yes, though the number of top-edges falling into space [occasionally abetted by some half-arsed fielding] has been extraordinary too. Good effort from the Banglas.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited June 2019

    JackW said:

    Cambridgeshire police investigating five further allegations relating to the Peterborough by-election - three relating to postal votes and one each relating to bribery and privacy :

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-48665324

    Crikey.

    "Postal votes accounted for 9,898 of the 33,998 ballot papers received.

    Four hundred of the postal votes returned were rejected due to either the signature or date of birth - or both - not matching council records."
    Four hundred?

    How many people would forget their date of birth or have changed their signatures? Bar a possible few cases of frail elderly people who struggle to write due to arthritis that’s up to four hundred attempted postal vote frauds to start with.

    Simple answer - unless you are disabled, elderly or housebound or can prove you are on holiday or away on business you must vote in person. You could even alllow early voting at council offices to deal with the latter.

    Preserve the secret ballot - no photos or family members allowed in the booth - and this problem disappears!

    Certain parties will hate it of course - you can’t expect people to walk five mins to their local school when they have a mere 15 hour window!

  • Feels like Raab likely to be only elimination tomorrow.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited June 2019
    brendan16 said:

    JackW said:

    Cambridgeshire police investigating five further allegations relating to the Peterborough by-election - three relating to postal votes and one each relating to bribery and privacy :

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-48665324

    Crikey.

    "Postal votes accounted for 9,898 of the 33,998 ballot papers received.

    Four hundred of the postal votes returned were rejected due to either the signature or date of birth - or both - not matching council records."
    Four hundred?

    How many people would forget their date of birth or have changed their signatures? Bar a possible few cases of frail elderly people who struggle to write due to arthritis that’s up to four hundred attempted postal vote frauds to start with.

    Simple answer - unless you are disabled, elderly or housebound or can prove you are on holiday or away on business you must vote in person. You could even alllow early voting at council offices to deal with the latter.

    Preserve the secret ballot - no photos or family members allowed in the booth - and this problem disappears!

    Certain parties will hate it of course - you can’t expect people to walk five mins to their local school when they have a mere 15 hour window!

    I’ve seen at last one person admit to misunderstanding the dob question and put today’s date. It’s like doing an exam and not reading the question correctly, it does happen.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    It wouldn't surprise me if there's a recount tomorrow to establish whether Rory has got 32 or 33 votes. It's going to be that close.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Feels like Raab likely to be only elimination tomorrow.

    Not Javid?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490
    JackW said:

    IanB2 said:

    I suspect he had Lidlington’s vote in the last round, so it’s probably more his emerging from the Rory closet than a switcher.
    Liddington backed Hancock in Round 1
    We hear a lot about leavers willing to wreck the country to get Brexit, but not a peep when the remain faction proposes putting Hancock, a buffoon of the order of Boris (just with less hair and four syllable words), in charge.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    Feels like Raab likely to be only elimination tomorrow.

    The (modest) gamble today has been on Javid coming bottom. It's a good three-way market.

    https://www.bet365.com/#/AC/B5/C20652304/D1/E42255231/F2/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    AndyJS said:

    A pathetic bowling performance by the West Indies.

    Yes, though the number of top-edges falling into space [occasionally abetted by some half-arsed fielding] has been extraordinary too. Good effort from the Banglas.
    Irrespective of the WI shortcomings, this has been a fantastic effort from Bangladesh. They might surprise one of the heavyweights.
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    kinabalu said:

    IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.

    This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.

    Michael Jackson is a good example. He is so massive and influential an entertainer that (IMO) his stuff will still be played and listened to and watched for generations. Paedophilia notwithstanding.

    Shakin Stevens OTOH - "Shaky" - would probably see his music airbrushed out of the popular consciousness in the event of something such as driving without due care and attention.

    Favourite tracks by these two?

    Beat It.
    This Ole House.
    A Little Boogie Woogie

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsfKfg8KU5A
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133

    Feels like Raab likely to be only elimination tomorrow.

    Excellent if true
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    kinabalu said:

    IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.

    This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.

    Michael Jackson is a good example. He is so massive and influential an entertainer that (IMO) his stuff will still be played and listened to and watched for generations. Paedophilia notwithstanding.

    Shakin Stevens OTOH - "Shaky" - would probably see his music airbrushed out of the popular consciousness in the event of something such as driving without due care and attention.

    Favourite tracks by these two?

    Beat It.
    This Ole House.
    Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.

    It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    TOPPING said:

    Phukov said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Phukov said:

    Mr. Nabavi, polling has Don't Know beating Corbyn and May comfortably. If enough MPs abstain, no MP will make it to the next round and become leader.

    Don't Know will prove the inescapably brilliant instrument of Conservative victory. Aided by masterly activity and never alienating anyone, the Empty Chair will sweep all before it!

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/745232091550449664
    I've changed my mind?
    The tweet is from 3 yr ago.
    Yes, I just found a tweet of an empty podium, to follow on Morris_Dancer's joke about the Empty Chair become PM.
    Sorry everyone, I didn't mean to make you switch on the news frantically.
    LOL now listening to someone explain why they were thrown off Love Island as seeing your post I instantly tuned into R5.

    Edit: sounds like it was for use of the C word.
    Conservative?
    I didn't think anyone with a sensible surname such as Hunt got on to such a program
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Feels like Raab likely to be only elimination tomorrow.

    Excellent if true
    Snap. Repulsive character.
  • AndyJS said:

    Feels like Raab likely to be only elimination tomorrow.

    Not Javid?
    I could be wrong but think he'll scrape over the line. Got to be safe to assume 80% at least of Raab backers move to Boris...or vote for Hunt in final vote to stop Rory getting on the ballot?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    edited June 2019
    kinabalu said:

    IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.

    This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.
    Sorry, but I don't think that makes any sense.

    I can't imagine anyone would stop listening to Beethoven if he turned out to be a sadistic mass murderer. Nor should they, I think. What good would it do?

    But if you do believe in boycotting composers because you object to their behaviour, I don't think the quality of their music should come into it.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    AndyJS said:

    From this it seems Tory members would like it to be Johnson v Raab.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1140563125550362625

    This can't be right, PB/twitter tells us the general public love Rory...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    Chris said:

    malcolmg said:

    when do we get results of the donkey derby second round

    Tomorrow - once the donkeys have voted.
    6pmish tomorrow night voting is between 3 and 5.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Talking of repulsive characters: Sammy Wilson = Paul Daniels
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Phukov said:

    Andrew said:


    Four hundred of the postal votes returned were rejected due to either the signature or date of birth - or both - not matching council records."

    3.9%. A little higher than average.

    Last 3 generals % postage rejected: 2017 2.4%, 2015 3.3%, 2010 3.8%
    More figures in here.
    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/81678/Postal-vote-verification-and-rejection-in-Great-Britain.pdf
    Over 4% is not unusual at all.

    This is more conspiracy theory nonsense. Sad to see people get swept up so easily in it.
    I had no idea it was so high to be honest. Puts me off having a postal vote. So easy to make a mistake.
    Yes and my wife was also dropped off postal voting as a result. Pretty crap.
    How difficult is it to remember your own date of birth and sign your name and then stuff a piece of paper you have marked an x on for your perferred candidate in one envelope, seal it put it it another envelope and then post that?

    It’s hardly rocket science?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    Feels like Raab likely to be only elimination tomorrow.


    I think Raab, Javid and Rory will fall tomorrow.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133

    Feels like Raab likely to be only elimination tomorrow.

    Excellent if true
    Snap. Repulsive character.
    I believe Raab knew he would have to be the most extreme brexiteer as his USP and the only way he could beat Boris is to threaten to prorogue Parliament.

    Absolute madness but it is common in the extreme brexiteers sadly
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    nico67 said:

    Another endorsement for Stewart .

    David Lidington after having backed Hancock earlier. The notion that his support would move to Bozo seems way off the mark now.

    I think Hancock has done huge damage to his brand by his desperate arse licking job of Bozo .

    I do too. Very poor show. His 'brand' is now shallow young man on the make.

    What a shame. He could have been our Bobby Kennedy.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    nico67 said:

    Another endorsement for Stewart .

    David Lidington after having backed Hancock earlier. The notion that his support would move to Bozo seems way off the mark now.

    I think Hancock has done huge damage to his brand by his desperate arse licking job of Bozo .

    I think Hancock is very duplicitous. He may well publically back BJ but i imagine he will vote for Hunt in the secet ballot!
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited June 2019

    Anorak said:

    TOPPING said:

    @Philip_Thompson why is upholding the hard-won peace in Northern Ireland 'absurd'?

    Upholding peace is not absurd. Doing so at any price is.

    The backstop is that NI would be effectively annexed by the EU/Eire and that NI would be subject to EU/Eire laws without getting a say in them. If that had been the agreement proposed on Good Friday it would have (quite rightly) been rejected. As such I am prepared to reject it now. Let me be abundantly clear, it is preferable to me that the Troubles restart than the backstop is agreed, though I don't want or expect either.
    Preferable that the troubles restart.

    Unbelievable. What with that and your desire to go to war with the EU if they impose phyto-sanitary checks on us I can only assume you're posting this from the recruiting office?
    I sometimes wonder if a large number of leavers are actually psychos. After all, we know they don't care that much if people lose their jobs and businesses, and they even accept that this is almost certain, while before the referendum they denied it. Depression and suicide rates generally go up with such business and job losses, but this is clearly worth it in the psychotic minds of many Brexiters. Now it seems that according to Philip Thompson, armed conflict is also worth it for Brexit purity. And they wonder why I accuse them of fascism!
    You'd think they'd be happier moving to a remote part of New Zealand. Happy to chip in for the air fare.
    I don't think the very tolerant people of New Zealand would particularly want them
    New Zealand doesn’t care where you come from as long as you can prove you can speak fluent English, have skllls or qualifications in roles they have vacancies or shortages in, are generally young or if over 55 can invest a over a million NZ dollars - but no free healthcare though - and are unlikely to be a burden on their welfare system.

    But thats horribly intolerant and bigoted isn’t it - at least when it is suggested we do the same here!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    kinabalu said:

    nico67 said:

    Another endorsement for Stewart .

    David Lidington after having backed Hancock earlier. The notion that his support would move to Bozo seems way off the mark now.

    I think Hancock has done huge damage to his brand by his desperate arse licking job of Bozo .

    I do too. Very poor show. His 'brand' is now shallow young man on the make.

    What a shame. He could have been our Bobby Kennedy.
    Preservation of reputable brands is hardly the Tory forté du jour.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490

    kinabalu said:

    IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.

    This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.

    Michael Jackson is a good example. He is so massive and influential an entertainer that (IMO) his stuff will still be played and listened to and watched for generations. Paedophilia notwithstanding.

    Shakin Stevens OTOH - "Shaky" - would probably see his music airbrushed out of the popular consciousness in the event of something such as driving without due care and attention.

    Favourite tracks by these two?

    Beat It.
    This Ole House.
    Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.

    It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
    It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733

    Feels like Raab likely to be only elimination tomorrow.

    Excellent if true
    Snap. Repulsive character.
    I believe Raab knew he would have to be the most extreme brexiteer as his USP and the only way he could beat Boris is to threaten to prorogue Parliament.

    Absolute madness but it is common in the extreme brexiteers sadly
    Being that bonkers may go down well with the members vote, but is a killer in the MPs vote. MPs won't vote to prorogue themselves in a moment of decision.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Feels like Raab likely to be only elimination tomorrow.

    Disagree as I do with everything he says nevertheless I thought he was genuine last night and the only non bullshit merchant there apart from Stewart.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    edited June 2019
    brendan16 said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Phukov said:

    Andrew said:


    Four hundred of the postal votes returned were rejected due to either the signature or date of birth - or both - not matching council records."

    3.9%. A little higher than average.

    Last 3 generals % postage rejected: 2017 2.4%, 2015 3.3%, 2010 3.8%
    More figures in here.
    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/81678/Postal-vote-verification-and-rejection-in-Great-Britain.pdf
    Over 4% is not unusual at all.

    This is more conspiracy theory nonsense. Sad to see people get swept up so easily in it.
    I had no idea it was so high to be honest. Puts me off having a postal vote. So easy to make a mistake.
    Yes and my wife was also dropped off postal voting as a result. Pretty crap.
    How difficult is it to remember your own date of birth and sign your name and then stuff a piece of paper you have marked an x on for your perferred candidate in one envelope, seal it put it it another envelope and then post that?

    It’s hardly rocket science?
    Have you ever actually seen a postal voting pack or attended the opening of postal votes? 4% of people making an error is perfectly plausible. It's quite easy to get it wrong or miss something out and a high proportion of postal votes goo to the elderly.

    It's frankly rubbish to claim that rejected postal votes are evidence of attempted fraud.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    kinabalu said:

    IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.

    This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.

    Michael Jackson is a good example. He is so massive and influential an entertainer that (IMO) his stuff will still be played and listened to and watched for generations. Paedophilia notwithstanding.

    Shakin Stevens OTOH - "Shaky" - would probably see his music airbrushed out of the popular consciousness in the event of something such as driving without due care and attention.

    Favourite tracks by these two?

    Beat It.
    This Ole House.
    I think some other pop stars have admitted sex with underage girls in the recent past. I cannot remember which one but I think it depends on how big a star they were at the peak to the amount of revulsion. Gary Gliter seems to have got away lightly in comparison despite proven guilt as opposed to probable guilt.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Feels like Raab likely to be only elimination tomorrow.

    Excellent if true
    Snap. Repulsive character.
    I believe Raab knew he would have to be the most extreme brexiteer as his USP and the only way he could beat Boris is to threaten to prorogue Parliament.

    Absolute madness but it is common in the extreme brexiteers sadly
    Proroguing parliament is not “madness”, it is a highly calculated undermining of democracy. Raab in not careless. He is built of dark, dark matter.

    Shame on the modern Conservative and Unionist Party for fostering such a beast.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490

    Feels like Raab likely to be only elimination tomorrow.

    Excellent if true
    Snap. Repulsive character.
    I believe Raab knew he would have to be the most extreme brexiteer as his USP and the only way he could beat Boris is to threaten to prorogue Parliament.

    Absolute madness but it is common in the extreme brexiteers sadly
    Proroguing parliament is not “madness”, it is a highly calculated undermining of democracy. Raab in not careless. He is built of dark, dark matter.

    Shame on the modern Conservative and Unionist Party for fostering such a beast.
    Your newfound affection for the UK parliament is heartwarming.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    kinabalu said:

    IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.

    This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.

    Michael Jackson is a good example. He is so massive and influential an entertainer that (IMO) his stuff will still be played and listened to and watched for generations. Paedophilia notwithstanding.

    Shakin Stevens OTOH - "Shaky" - would probably see his music airbrushed out of the popular consciousness in the event of something such as driving without due care and attention.

    Favourite tracks by these two?

    Beat It.
    This Ole House.
    Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.

    It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
    It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
    Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337
    Also, those Tory voters who want a soft/Norway/Swiss etc Brexit...

    https://twitter.com/ajcdeane/status/1140669858843152384?s=20
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Well at least he admits it is by magic such a position will emerge. I'll apologise to him if that proves true, but why people are so confident when plans rely on magical solutions is beyond me.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490

    kinabalu said:

    IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.

    This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.

    Michael Jackson is a good example. He is so massive and influential an entertainer that (IMO) his stuff will still be played and listened to and watched for generations. Paedophilia notwithstanding.

    Shakin Stevens OTOH - "Shaky" - would probably see his music airbrushed out of the popular consciousness in the event of something such as driving without due care and attention.

    Favourite tracks by these two?

    Beat It.
    This Ole House.
    Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.

    It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
    It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
    Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
    Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    Rory clearly comes from the James Blunt school of social media...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Don't most of his points relate to the transition only?
    Reminds me of another cast iron argument against the WA...that the EU have agreed to it, ergo it must be bad.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited June 2019
    deleted
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    kinabalu said:

    IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.

    This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.

    Michael Jackson is a good example. He is so massive and influential an entertainer that (IMO) his stuff will still be played and listened to and watched for generations. Paedophilia notwithstanding.

    Shakin Stevens OTOH - "Shaky" - would probably see his music airbrushed out of the popular consciousness in the event of something such as driving without due care and attention.

    Favourite tracks by these two?

    Beat It.
    This Ole House.
    Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.

    It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
    It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
    Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
    Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
    His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    kinabalu said:

    IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.

    This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.

    Michael Jackson is a good example. He is so massive and influential an entertainer that (IMO) his stuff will still be played and listened to and watched for generations. Paedophilia notwithstanding.

    Shakin Stevens OTOH - "Shaky" - would probably see his music airbrushed out of the popular consciousness in the event of something such as driving without due care and attention.

    Favourite tracks by these two?

    Beat It.
    This Ole House.
    Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.

    It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
    It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
    Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
    Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
    Neither pardophiles, nor the beneficiaries of their Estate, should thrive.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited June 2019

    In other news, I have a delicious homemade lasagne in the oven. :#

    That is news to gladden the heart. I keep on trying lasagne in various Italian restaurants, but I've yet to find one that matches a good homemade effort.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    brendan16 said:

    Anorak said:

    TOPPING said:

    @Philip_Thompson why is upholding the hard-won peace in Northern Ireland 'absurd'?

    Upholding peace is not absurd. Doing so at any price is.

    The backstop is that NI would be effectively annexed by the EU/Eire and that NI would be subject to EU/Eire laws without getting a say in them. If that had been the agreement proposed on Good Friday it would have (quite rightly) been rejected. As such I am prepared to reject it now. Let me be abundantly clear, it is preferable to me that the Troubles restart than the backstop is agreed, though I don't want or expect either.
    Preferable that the troubles restart.

    Unbelievable. What with that and your desire to go to war with the EU if they impose phyto-sanitary checks on us I can only assume you're posting this from the recruiting office?
    I sometimes wonder if a large number of leavers are actually psychos. After all, we know they don't care that much if people lose their jobs and businesses, and they even accept that this is almost certain, while before the referendum they denied it. Depression and suicide rates generally go up with such business and job losses, but this is clearly worth it in the psychotic minds of many Brexiters. Now it seems that according to Philip Thompson, armed conflict is also worth it for Brexit purity. And they wonder why I accuse them of fascism!
    You'd think they'd be happier moving to a remote part of New Zealand. Happy to chip in for the air fare.
    I don't think the very tolerant people of New Zealand would particularly want them
    New Zealand doesn’t care where you come from as long as you can prove you can speak fluent English, have skllls or qualifications in roles they have vacancies or shortages in, are generally young or if over 55 can invest a over a million NZ dollars - but no free healthcare though - and are unlikely to be a burden on their welfare system.

    But thats horribly intolerant and bigoted isn’t it - at least when it is suggested we do the same here!
    New Zealand’s immigration rates are many multiples of the UK’s. Are you proposing that Britain should drastically increase the number of immigrants?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237


    Wow - so THAT is now my favourite. What a track.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.

    This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.

    Michael Jackson is a good example. He is so massive and influential an entertainer that (IMO) his stuff will still be played and listened to and watched for generations. Paedophilia notwithstanding.

    Shakin Stevens OTOH - "Shaky" - would probably see his music airbrushed out of the popular consciousness in the event of something such as driving without due care and attention.

    Favourite tracks by these two?

    Beat It.
    This Ole House.
    Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.

    It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
    It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
    Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
    Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
    His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
    Pretty much everything that he did after Thriller was dross, but his work with the Jackson 5 and early solo stuff showed exceptional talent.

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    Also, those Tory voters who want a soft/Norway/Swiss etc Brexit...

    https://twitter.com/ajcdeane/status/1140669858843152384?s=20

    Alex Deane doesn’t see the stupidity of his argument . How about the millions of Tories who voted to Remain . Using his logic the Tories should go with the minority and revoke Article 50.

    Labour is now 70+ for Remain .
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Am at the Rory rally at the Festival Hall.

    David Lidington has endorsed him. Also present are David Gauke and P Masterson MPs.

    About 300 people here.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited June 2019
    I think Gove could do it, if Stewart continues to pick up Remainers that will limit Hunt's capacity for growth but he is probably still too far back to make the final 2. Once Raab is likely knocked out more of his backers will go to Gove as a Leaver than Remainers Hunt and Stewart too.

    After having a Remainer as PM in May failing to deliver Brexit it would be poetic if the 2 biggest figures in Vote Leave, Boris and Gove, fought it out to succeed her
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Cyclefree said:

    Am at the Rory rally at the Festival Hall.

    David Lidington has endorsed him. Also present are David Gauke and P Masterson MPs.

    About 300 people here.

    Ask him how he thinks he could possibly get parliament to get his citizen's assembly idea through, given that is his hope of getting the WA through. Because it seems like he is selling us a unicorn.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    Chris said:

    Sorry, but I don't think that makes any sense.

    I can't imagine anyone would stop listening to Beethoven if he turned out to be a sadistic mass murderer. Nor should they, I think. What good would it do?

    But if you do believe in boycotting composers because you object to their behaviour, I don't think the quality of their music should come into it.

    I really do think it is graded rather than binary.

    For example, imagine that Hitler's watercolours were absolutely first class. By any measure amongst the finest ever painted.

    Would they be hanging in the Louvre? I would suggest not.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    eek said:

    Rory clearly comes from the James Blunt school of social media...
    Blunt was Harrow though
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    kinabalu said:

    nico67 said:

    Another endorsement for Stewart .

    David Lidington after having backed Hancock earlier. The notion that his support would move to Bozo seems way off the mark now.

    I think Hancock has done huge damage to his brand by his desperate arse licking job of Bozo .

    I do too. Very poor show. His 'brand' is now shallow young man on the make.

    What a shame. He could have been our Bobby Kennedy.
    Sorry just about stopped laughing after Matt Hancock was compared to Bobby Kennedy!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490
    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.

    This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.

    Michael Jackson is a good example. He is so massive and influential an entertainer that (IMO) his stuff will still be played and listened to and watched for generations. Paedophilia notwithstanding.

    Shakin Stevens OTOH - "Shaky" - would probably see his music airbrushed out of the popular consciousness in the event of something such as driving without due care and attention.

    Favourite tracks by these two?

    Beat It.
    This Ole House.
    Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.

    It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
    It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
    Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
    Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
    His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
    Same as every artist, it's all opinion. I like some of his songs, don't like others.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    TOPPING said:

    Feels like Raab likely to be only elimination tomorrow.

    Disagree as I do with everything he says nevertheless I thought he was genuine last night and the only non bullshit merchant there apart from Stewart.
    Raab is the only one with a feasible plan. Admittedly it's an affront to democracy but it a) could work (in the sense of getting us out of the EU) and b) hasn't yet been tried.

    Stewart's citizens assemblies are a bizarre idea that don't get us closer to sorting Brexit at all.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    Cyclefree said:

    Am at the Rory rally at the Festival Hall.

    David Lidington has endorsed him. Also present are David Gauke and P Masterson MPs.

    About 300 people here.

    Are there sufficient loaves and fishes yet?
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337
    nico67 said:

    Also, those Tory voters who want a soft/Norway/Swiss etc Brexit...

    https://twitter.com/ajcdeane/status/1140669858843152384?s=20

    Alex Deane doesn’t see the stupidity of his argument . How about the millions of Tories who voted to Remain . Using his logic the Tories should go with the minority and revoke Article 50.

    Labour is now 70+ for Remain .
    I avoided that point because, well, will of the people. But yes
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    I think some other pop stars have admitted sex with underage girls in the recent past. I cannot remember which one but I think it depends on how big a star they were at the peak to the amount of revulsion. Gary Gliter seems to have got away lightly in comparison despite proven guilt as opposed to probable guilt.

    He still gets good royalties from a particular one of his songs that is played a lot in North America at ice hockey games.

    I think it's Rock'n'Roll part one.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.

    This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.

    Michael Jackson is a good example. He is so massive and influential an entertainer that (IMO) his stuff will still be played and listened to and watched for generations. Paedophilia notwithstanding.

    Shakin Stevens OTOH - "Shaky" - would probably see his music airbrushed out of the popular consciousness in the event of something such as driving without due care and attention.

    Favourite tracks by these two?

    Beat It.
    This Ole House.
    Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.

    It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
    It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
    Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
    Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
    His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
    Pretty much everything that he did after Thriller was dross, but his work with the Jackson 5 and early solo stuff showed exceptional talent.

    As I said, the airbrushing is ongoing. Give it a while and even Thriller and the early solo and J5 stuff will be forgotten.

    Maggie Thatcher fans take note.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490

    kinabalu said:

    IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.

    This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.

    Michael Jackson is a good example. He is so massive and influential an entertainer that (IMO) his stuff will still be played and listened to and watched for generations. Paedophilia notwithstanding.

    Shakin Stevens OTOH - "Shaky" - would probably see his music airbrushed out of the popular consciousness in the event of something such as driving without due care and attention.

    Favourite tracks by these two?

    Beat It.
    This Ole House.
    Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.

    It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
    It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
    Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
    Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
    Neither pardophiles, nor the beneficiaries of their Estate, should thrive.
    Agree on the first, not on the second. The man is dead. Anyone still living who enabled his crimes should be prosecuted if it is possible. But if the beneficiaries are innocent, I really don't see why they should be punished.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    rkrkrk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Feels like Raab likely to be only elimination tomorrow.

    Disagree as I do with everything he says nevertheless I thought he was genuine last night and the only non bullshit merchant there apart from Stewart.
    Raab is the only one with a feasible plan. Admittedly it's an affront to democracy but it a) could work (in the sense of getting us out of the EU) and b) hasn't yet been tried.

    Stewart's citizens assemblies are a bizarre idea that don't get us closer to sorting Brexit at all.
    Raab has a feasible plan? Exactly what is it as leaving without a deal and without the legal paperwork in place to leave without a deal really doesn't sound like a plan to me....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733

    brendan16 said:

    Anorak said:

    TOPPING said:

    @Philip_Thompson why is upholding the hard-won peace in Northern Ireland 'absurd'?

    Upholding peace is not absurd. Doing so at any price is.

    The backstop is that NI would be effectively annexed by the EU/Eire and that NI would be subject to EU/Eire laws without getting a say in them. If that had been the agreement proposed on Good Friday it would have (quite rightly) been rejected. As such I am prepared to reject it now. Let me be abundantly clear, it is preferable to me that the Troubles restart than the backstop is agreed, though I don't want or expect either.
    Preferable that the troubles restart.

    Unbelievable. What with that and your desire to go to war with the EU if they impose phyto-sanitary checks on us I can only assume you're posting this from the recruiting office?
    I sometimes wonder if a large number of leavers are actually psychos. After all, we know they don't care that much if people lose their jobs and businesses, and they even accept that this is almost certain, while before the referendum they denied it. Depression and suicide rates generally go up with such business and job losses, but this is clearly worth it in the psychotic minds of many Brexiters. Now it seems that according to Philip Thompson, armed conflict is also worth it for Brexit purity. And they wonder why I accuse them of fascism!
    You'd think they'd be happier moving to a remote part of New Zealand. Happy to chip in for the air fare.
    I don't think the very tolerant people of New Zealand would particularly want them
    New Zealand doesn’t care where you come from as long as you can prove you can speak fluent English, have skllls or qualifications in roles they have vacancies or shortages in, are generally young or if over 55 can invest a over a million NZ dollars - but no free healthcare though - and are unlikely to be a burden on their welfare system.

    But thats horribly intolerant and bigoted isn’t it - at least when it is suggested we do the same here!
    New Zealand’s immigration rates are many multiples of the UK’s. Are you proposing that Britain should drastically increase the number of immigrants?
    NZ has also had several immigration amnesties over the years, most recently in 2000, I think.

    A very different approach to their Windrush Generation, of Pacific Islanders who are nearly 10% of the population
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    IIRC Wagner was an anti-semite and was Hitlers favourite composer. Maybe Corbyn likes him as well! It does create a dicotomy as to whether you can appreciate the music given Wagners views.

    This is a matter I have often contemplated. I think it comes down to the relativities between the stature of the artist and the seriousness of the offence. The greater the artist the worse the offence that can be tolerated without stopping listening.

    Michael Jackson is a good example. He is so massive and influential an entertainer that (IMO) his stuff will still be played and listened to and watched for generations. Paedophilia notwithstanding.

    Shakin Steven

    Favourite tracks by these two?

    Beat It.
    This Ole House.
    Disagree regarding Jackson. The airbrushing is ongoing.

    It’ll take a heck of a long time, but in fifty years the kidz will be asking “who?”
    It has nothing to do with Jackson, but in fifty years, I suspect political correctness as a societal trend will be on its way to being looked upon as a crude excess of the late 20th and early 21st century. Much like lice-infested powdered wigs and tulip fever. As wirh everyone throughout history, we think of ourselves as the most advanced version of humanity, but actually we're just people, conforming or not conforming to the social mores of our time.
    Opposition to paedophilia is not “political correctness”. I find your response very concerning.
    Disgust and anger at Michael Jackson's crimes is a morally right response. Ignoring and in some way suppressing his music because of his crimes is in my opinion a politically correct response.
    His music is rubbish, it only works as part of the novelty act with the moonwalking and stuff. Can you imagine anyone usefully or interestingly doing a cover of any of his output? He was never any bigger than Sinatra was, and who knows or cares about Sinatra these days except for My bloody Way, and inspiring bits of The Godfather?
    Pretty much everything that he did after Thriller was dross, but his work with the Jackson 5 and early solo stuff showed exceptional talent.

    As I said, the airbrushing is ongoing. Give it a while and even Thriller and the early solo and J5 stuff will be forgotten.

    Maggie Thatcher fans take note.
    That's why her stuff is elevated to religious level adoration.
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