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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The real driver behind Johnson’s CON MP campaign has been Gavi

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Comments

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    @rottenborough

    Me too - what price did you get?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    kinabalu said:

    @rottenborough

    Me too - what price did you get?

    11. But only beer money, so if it comes off, I will still need to do my own laundry.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    IanB2 said:

    Truss has already been promised Chancellor by BJ

    And friends in my wardrobe tell me that Aslan has recently been sighted.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    edited June 2019
    Farron indirectly raises a key question looking ahead.

    How long before Labour members/unions gets really restless at being stuck at 3rd in the polling?

    No HM Opposition Leader has ever survived that for long have they?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Andrew said:

    >I think Boris has done phenomenonally well to get the ERG on board.

    Has he really though? Seems like the portion of the GOP supporting Trump while he delivers judges ........ for as long as he's useful.

    Surely it was Jacob Rees-Mogg who brought the ERG to Boris, except for those supporting Raab of course. If Williamson did play a role with the ERG, it might have been their boycotting of Michael Gove, co-head of Leave, whose public backers were from the Remain side of the party.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052
    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    thanks KC for this interesting bit of kremlinology. The disgraced former defence secretary has a new role. Worth a punt for next chancellor?

    Think that will be Liz Truss.
    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    thanks KC for this interesting bit of kremlinology. The disgraced former defence secretary has a new role. Worth a punt for next chancellor?

    Think that will be Liz Truss.
    aka the Minister for Beverages
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    Dadge said:

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    thanks KC for this interesting bit of kremlinology. The disgraced former defence secretary has a new role. Worth a punt for next chancellor?

    Think that will be Liz Truss.
    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    thanks KC for this interesting bit of kremlinology. The disgraced former defence secretary has a new role. Worth a punt for next chancellor?

    Think that will be Liz Truss.
    aka the Minister for Beverages
    Cheesy Liz
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    isam said:

    It would also be a fitting summary of Theresa May's reign that she has smoothed the path for her successor to pass a rejigged version of the WA which she couldn't pass.

    It's entirely plausible. She is terrible at sales and Boris seems to be popular despite many faults, so presumably is pretty good.

    People slam him for his infidelities, and maybe it is a poor character trait, but you could say it proves he is a good salesman. The product doesn't ostensibly look that good.
    You mean these women have been paying him? Amazing.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    blueblue said:

    Personally, I'm looking forward to the Big Boris Tax Cut (wait, am I allowed to say that?). Simply the fact that a Conservative Government might stop constantly raising taxes will be a pleasant novelty for me.

    With an aging population and ever rising health and social care costs, taxes in the round are going up. If taxes for the rich are cut (and it wont pass the current House), someone else will have to pay for sure.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    11. But only beer money, so if it comes off, I will still need to do my own laundry.

    Very good. Double mine. You must have done it a while ago.

    Bad news though - Ian says that Bozo has promised it to her. Looking to lay back if I can.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    @Dadge
    What is she a tippler?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Chris said:

    isam said:

    It would also be a fitting summary of Theresa May's reign that she has smoothed the path for her successor to pass a rejigged version of the WA which she couldn't pass.

    It's entirely plausible. She is terrible at sales and Boris seems to be popular despite many faults, so presumably is pretty good.

    People slam him for his infidelities, and maybe it is a poor character trait, but you could say it proves he is a good salesman. The product doesn't ostensibly look that good.
    You mean these women have been paying him? Amazing.
    Why would I mean that?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Farron indirectly raises a key question looking ahead.

    How long before Labour members/unions gets really restless at being stuck at 3rd in the polling?

    No HM Opposition Leader has ever survived that for long have they?

    In two polls Labour is in 1st place though!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Architecturally of course the last sentence completely missed the point. You are MEANT to put square pegs in round holes, that way they do not fall out. We live in a world so far removed from these things that the meaning of the phrase has been completely lost. Someone who does not fit well into a job is actually meant to be better than someone who fits into it exactly because they will work all the harder.
    Literal square pegs in round holes tended to be when decent craftmanship was unavailable and a crude fixing was needed. With modern manufacturing processes it's entirely redundant.

    However nip down to B&Q and ask for some square section dowels and see what they say.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    justin124 said:

    Farron indirectly raises a key question looking ahead.

    How long before Labour members/unions gets really restless at being stuck at 3rd in the polling?

    No HM Opposition Leader has ever survived that for long have they?

    In two polls Labour is in 1st place though!
    Keep whistling!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    Again? We had this two days ago. BEFORE the MPs voted him clearly in the lead....
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Idle: accepted.

    But intelligent? According to Gove he has a memory like a sieve. How many intelligent people do you know who cannot remember an important conversation they had yesterday?
    1. How many books have you written?

    2. Einstein notoriously had a terrible memory.
    I wouldn't necessarily correlate number of books written with intelligence.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Architecturally of course the last sentence completely missed the point. You are MEANT to put square pegs in round holes, that way they do not fall out. We live in a world so far removed from these things that the meaning of the phrase has been completely lost. Someone who does not fit well into a job is actually meant to be better than someone who fits into it exactly because they will work all the harder.
    Literal square pegs in round holes tended to be when decent craftmanship was unavailable and a crude fixing was needed. With modern manufacturing processes it's entirely redundant.

    However nip down to B&Q and ask for some square section dowels and see what they say.
    Try putting IKEA flat pack stuff together with square pages ...

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    kinabalu said:

    11. But only beer money, so if it comes off, I will still need to do my own laundry.

    Very good. Double mine. You must have done it a while ago.

    Bad news though - Ian says that Bozo has promised it to her. Looking to lay back if I can.
    She was available at 11 on 10th June.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    edited June 2019
    I see labours mrs bucket has again put tin foil hat jezza in his place. Cant be long until she is sent to the gulag.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    Farron indirectly raises a key question looking ahead.

    How long before Labour members/unions gets really restless at being stuck at 3rd in the polling?

    No HM Opposition Leader has ever survived that for long have they?

    In two polls Labour is in 1st place though!
    Keep whistling!
    Why do you choose to believe the poll out of line with others?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    A really chilling thread. Echoes of those faceless men in dark suits who were behind Maggie. Maybe in years to come an aged Theresa May will stand up at conference and tell it what by then we will all have known for a long time just like a younger version did all those years ago.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Farron indirectly raises a key question looking ahead.

    How long before Labour members/unions gets really restless at being stuck at 3rd in the polling?

    Scottish Labour are currently stuck at 5th in the polling. This in a country they recently dominated with impunity.

    The Scottish trade unions gave up on them long ago, and as for restless members, there are gey few left.

    Quite amazing to witness the decline and fall of a once mighty organisation.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    What a pathetic and whiny thread.

    Boris has always been pro-immigration and not an anti-immigration nativist like Farage or Theresa May.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    JackW said:

    It's a tad difficult to see Gavin Williamson as some Borgiaesque mastermind, although if all he had to do was keep Boris locked up in a closet for 23 hours a day I suppose he might manage that. Of course only if Gavin hadn't entrusted the keys to Chris Grayling !!

    So let's look at the Boris Administration - A cabinet of all the talents :

    Prime Minister - Boris Johnson
    Deputy PM FSoS - Gavin Williamson

    I thought you might be serious until I read beyond this.

    If there is a market for Brexit Secretary under Johnson, I would expect to get very short odds that Dominic Raab will resume his previous role, but this time without the hindrance of being undermined by his boss.
    Personally, I think the Brexit secretary should be in charge of making sure that the UK is as well prepared for whatever happens on October 31st. Dominic Raab has shown no special indication that he's particularly organised or detail focused, and that worries me.

    Negotiations, like it or not, be led by Johnson (or whoever else is PM).
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    rcs1000 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Idle: accepted.

    But intelligent? According to Gove he has a memory like a sieve. How many intelligent people do you know who cannot remember an important conversation they had yesterday?
    1. How many books have you written?

    2. Einstein notoriously had a terrible memory.
    I wouldn't necessarily correlate number of books written with intelligence.
    Nor me, that was aimed at the claim that he was idle, not that he was dim. Even writing out "the cat sat on the mat" enough times to produce a normal length book is bloody hard work.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    If Mrs May wants to stop Boris, this is what she ought to do.

    Give an interview and endorse him, saying sweetly while she does so, that she knows he is at heart a pragmatist, is clever enough to have learnt from her mistake in tacking too far to the ERG and knows from his FO experience what is / is not realistically available from the EU.

    She can end by saying that he is far too much of a patriot to want to take the sorts of risks with peoples’ lives that a no Deal exit would entail.

    And then wish him luck and all her support while smoothly moving onto all the lovely holidays she and Philip have planned.

    Perhaps in an interview in this weekend’s Sundays .....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Cyclefree said:

    If Mrs May wants to stop Boris, this is what she ought to do.

    Give an interview and endorse him, saying sweetly while she does so, that she knows he is at heart a pragmatist, is clever enough to have learnt from her mistake in tacking too far to the ERG and knows from his FO experience what is / is not realistically available from the EU.

    She can end by saying that he is far too much of a patriot to want to take the sorts of risks with peoples’ lives that a no Deal exit would entail.

    And then wish him luck and all her support while smoothly moving onto all the lovely holidays she and Philip have planned.

    Perhaps in an interview in this weekend’s Sundays .....

    Or, she can tell the Queen, when asked, that she cannot at the moment recommend sending for Boris to be next PM, as he is not likely to command a majority in the House.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    rcs1000 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Idle: accepted.

    But intelligent? According to Gove he has a memory like a sieve. How many intelligent people do you know who cannot remember an important conversation they had yesterday?
    1. How many books have you written?

    2. Einstein notoriously had a terrible memory.
    I wouldn't necessarily correlate number of books written with intelligence.
    And Einstein did not require the social intelligence essential in a head of government. A good memory is a given when building trusting relationships, recruitment and delegating.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    rcs1000 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Idle: accepted.

    But intelligent? According to Gove he has a memory like a sieve. How many intelligent people do you know who cannot remember an important conversation they had yesterday?
    1. How many books have you written?

    2. Einstein notoriously had a terrible memory.
    I wouldn't necessarily correlate number of books written with intelligence.
    It would be astonishing if they didn't correlate.
    Don't know what "necessarily" is doing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    rcs1000 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Idle: accepted.

    But intelligent? According to Gove he has a memory like a sieve. How many intelligent people do you know who cannot remember an important conversation they had yesterday?
    1. How many books have you written?

    2. Einstein notoriously had a terrible memory.
    I wouldn't necessarily correlate number of books written with intelligence.
    I thought that would be a link to the complete works of Nadine Dorries.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    Nigelb said:

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Architecturally of course the last sentence completely missed the point. You are MEANT to put square pegs in round holes, that way they do not fall out. We live in a world so far removed from these things that the meaning of the phrase has been completely lost. Someone who does not fit well into a job is actually meant to be better than someone who fits into it exactly because they will work all the harder.
    Literal square pegs in round holes tended to be when decent craftmanship was unavailable and a crude fixing was needed. With modern manufacturing processes it's entirely redundant.

    However nip down to B&Q and ask for some square section dowels and see what they say.
    Try putting IKEA flat pack stuff together with square pages ...

    Pages? As any red blooded male idiot kno, the instructions are only a last resort after hours of sweaty cursing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    kinabalu said:

    Mum anecdote.

    My mum voted Conservative all of her life until 2013, 2014 and 2015, when she flipped to Ukip. Back to Tory in 2017. She's not very political, but having voted Leave in 2016 has to turn the television off now when she hears Grieve, Soubry, Lammy and Stewart. She voted Brexit Party in 2019.

    Boris will likely bring her back. If he delivers...

    I would argue that if your mum has to turn off the TV whenever it features politicians whose views are anathema to her then she is VERY political.

    Mine OTOH genuinely does have zero interest in politics. Too busy watching reruns of Midsomer Murders. The old ones with John Nettles. Doesn't like the new guy.
    My wife likes the old Midsomer Murders too. She is also resolutely apolitical.

    That being said, she did vote Remain, because she was worried about her (Portuguese passport holding) mother being sent home. Personally, I only voted Leave to get rid of the mother-in-law.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    What a pathetic and whiny thread.

    Boris has always been pro-immigration and not an anti-immigration nativist like Farage or Theresa May.
    We all know that. I think the issue is he was going around telling ambassadors that when he was actually representing HMQ and its Cabinet agreed position on FoM in the negotiations.

    I think it shows up the journalists that they did not do more digging.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486



    Who else could come into the Cabinet. Priti Patel might come back either as IDS (and cut the budget) or Defence Secretary, if Penny goes.

    Patel as IDS? Well the hair would be simple enough but what about the body type? Difficult unless the change is permanent.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    blueblue said:

    Personally, I'm looking forward to the Big Boris Tax Cut (wait, am I allowed to say that?). Simply the fact that a Conservative Government might stop constantly raising taxes will be a pleasant novelty for me.

    The problem the UK (and every other country in the developed world has) is that the ratio between retirees and workers keeps getting greater.

    As the consumption of the old needs to be paid for out of the production of the young (and this is true no matter how much is saved), this means that - one way or another - the burden on people of working age will continue to rise.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The EU will be the ones to decide how much pain will come with no deal .

    What’s been ignored by much of the media is the UKs so called no deal plans don’t survive without co operation from the EU .

    There are very few unilateral measures the UK can put into place .

    The media have failed to ask Bozo if you refuse to honour committments why should the EU come back to the table and even think of a future trade deal.

    The no deal fantasists fail to understand that no deal puts the UK into a very weak position . Especially if it’s trying to do trade deals with other countries .

    Having an orderly departure then a trade deal strengthens the UKs hand because it’s not desperate to sign upto deals with non EU countries , it will also be much easier to transfer other current EU deals across because they have already said they’d recommend that action to those countries .

    The EU holds enormous leverage there , aswell as this other countries will be reluctant to engage with the UK until they know what its trade relationship will be with its biggest market .

    Flag waving and belief in Brexit means zip in the real world . Sadly many Leavers refuse to see reality and just think the world revolves around the UK.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    Cyclefree said:

    If Mrs May wants to stop Boris, this is what she ought to do.

    Give an interview and endorse him, saying sweetly while she does so, that she knows he is at heart a pragmatist, is clever enough to have learnt from her mistake in tacking too far to the ERG and knows from his FO experience what is / is not realistically available from the EU.

    She can end by saying that he is far too much of a patriot to want to take the sorts of risks with peoples’ lives that a no Deal exit would entail.

    And then wish him luck and all her support while smoothly moving onto all the lovely holidays she and Philip have planned.

    Perhaps in an interview in this weekend’s Sundays .....

    déjà vu
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    edited June 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mum anecdote.

    My mum voted Conservative all of her life until 2013, 2014 and 2015, when she flipped to Ukip. Back to Tory in 2017. She's not very political, but having voted Leave in 2016 has to turn the television off now when she hears Grieve, Soubry, Lammy and Stewart. She voted Brexit Party in 2019.

    Boris will likely bring her back. If he delivers...

    I would argue that if your mum has to turn off the TV whenever it features politicians whose views are anathema to her then she is VERY political.

    Mine OTOH genuinely does have zero interest in politics. Too busy watching reruns of Midsomer Murders. The old ones with John Nettles. Doesn't like the new guy.
    My wife likes the old Midsomer Murders too. She is also resolutely apolitical.

    That being said, she did vote Remain, because she was worried about her (Portuguese passport holding) mother being sent home. Personally, I only voted Leave to get rid of the mother-in-law.
    I recently heard from a swedish friend that midsomer murders is really big in sweden. Apparently all those scandi drama the british like dont cut the mustard like a good killing spree in midsomer for the swedes.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    One wonders whether the 2019 general election markets might be of interest ?

    Are you on holiday in October Mike ? .... Asking for a friend ....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    edited June 2019
    Thrilling game of cricket between the cheating convicts and sri lanka.

    Edit - I'll get my coat....
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Scott_P said:
    In order to lay Nicola Sturgeon resigning before March 2020, he’d need to find a punter willing to back such an event. Can’t imagine there are many of those around, at a price worth the bother.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    If Boris Johnson wants to keep the Conservative party together in Parliament he will need to consider how he keeps the Remain flank engaged within it. Sacking every Cabinet minister from that grouping is an invitation to them and their camp followers to rebel or defect. That problem needs to be thought about before he takes office because they’re not going to hang around to see if they’re still welcome.

    The most daring offer he could make would be a Lordship for Osborne and the offer of the post of Foreign Secretary.

    Not sure what his friends in the ERG would make of that though.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Idle: accepted.

    But intelligent? According to Gove he has a memory like a sieve. How many intelligent people do you know who cannot remember an important conversation they had yesterday?
    1. How many books have you written?

    2. Einstein notoriously had a terrible memory.
    I wouldn't necessarily correlate number of books written with intelligence.
    It would be astonishing if they didn't correlate.
    Don't know what "necessarily" is doing.
    Dumb or dumberer! Caught me out not noticing the link.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    rcs1000 said:

    blueblue said:

    Personally, I'm looking forward to the Big Boris Tax Cut (wait, am I allowed to say that?). Simply the fact that a Conservative Government might stop constantly raising taxes will be a pleasant novelty for me.

    The problem the UK (and every other country in the developed world has) is that the ratio between retirees and workers keeps getting greater.

    As the consumption of the old needs to be paid for out of the production of the young (and this is true no matter how much is saved), this means that - one way or another - the burden on people of working age will continue to rise.
    Yes the ratio used to be 4 workers to 1 pensioner in 2004 , it’s now close to 3 to 1 and expected to be 2 to 1 by the middle of the century . This is why you need immigration especially as the UKs birth rate is low .

    Either Brits start having a lot more children or face upto the fact that immigration will be needed to plug the gap .
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    rcs1000 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Idle: accepted.

    But intelligent? According to Gove he has a memory like a sieve. How many intelligent people do you know who cannot remember an important conversation they had yesterday?
    1. How many books have you written?

    2. Einstein notoriously had a terrible memory.
    I wouldn't necessarily correlate number of books written with intelligence.
    And Einstein did not require the social intelligence essential in a head of government. A good memory is a given when building trusting relationships, recruitment and delegating.
    Well wriggled. WTF is social intelligence?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Given how expensive the US stock market is, there is likely to be a "market crash" irrespective of who the President is.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Glenn, Boris as Bungle I can see.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Idle: accepted.

    But intelligent? According to Gove he has a memory like a sieve. How many intelligent people do you know who cannot remember an important conversation they had yesterday?
    1. How many books have you written?

    2. Einstein notoriously had a terrible memory.
    I wouldn't necessarily correlate number of books written with intelligence.
    It would be astonishing if they didn't correlate.
    Don't know what "necessarily" is doing.
    Aristotle and Enid Blyton both wrote lots of books, so it tells us nothing about intelligence. As already noted my point was about idleness, not intelligence.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    If Boris Johnson wants to keep the Conservative party together in Parliament he will need to consider how he keeps the Remain flank engaged within it. Sacking every Cabinet minister from that grouping is an invitation to them and their camp followers to rebel or defect. That problem needs to be thought about before he takes office because they’re not going to hang around to see if they’re still welcome.

    What about a move of such breathtaking wisdom and magnanimity that it would bring to mind nothing less than Nelson Mandela and his Truth & Reconciliation on coming to power in post apartheid South Africa - Amber as Chancellor?
  • PhukovPhukov Posts: 132
    edited June 2019
    Boris would be an antisemite too, if Jewish women wore burkas.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    rcs1000 said:

    My wife likes the old Midsomer Murders too. She is also resolutely apolitical.

    That being said, she did vote Remain, because she was worried about her (Portuguese passport holding) mother being sent home. Personally, I only voted Leave to get rid of the mother-in-law.



    Just as I was starting to despair of hearing a single rational reason for voting Leave.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    JackW said:

    One wonders whether the 2019 general election markets might be of interest ?

    Are you on holiday in October Mike ? .... Asking for a friend ....
    No. Next foreign holiday first fortnight in September
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    edited June 2019
    "Is Labour’s fiscal policy rule neoliberal?

    That is the charge some on the left, particularly followers a movement called MMT, have laid against Labour's Fiscal Credibility Rule (FCR). MMT stands for nothing very informative, but it is a non-mainstream left-wing macroeconomic school of thought. Bill Mitchell, one of the leading lights of MMT, has run a relentless campaign against the FCR through his blog. As my own work with Jonathan Portes helped provide the intellectual foundation for the FCR, I will try and explain why I find the neoliberal charge nonsensical."


    https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2019/06/is-labours-fiscal-policy-rule-neoliberal.html

    There seems to be increasing momentum on the Left for Modern Monetary Theory (MMT), so these debates will matter when/if Jezza wins.

    As far as I can see, as a non-economist, it seems to say you can get full employment by using fiscal policy (using extra printed money and ramping up deficits) rather than interest rates even in normal, non-crisis times. Only works in theory if you have your own currency and to my small mind just means inflation.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    JackW said:

    One wonders whether the 2019 general election markets might be of interest ?

    Are you on holiday in October Mike ? .... Asking for a friend ....
    No. Next foreign holiday first fortnight in September
    And if an election is called in July it's on September 12th...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    What a pathetic and whiny thread.

    Boris has always been pro-immigration and not an anti-immigration nativist like Farage or Theresa May.
    We all know that. I think the issue is he was going around telling ambassadors that when he was actually representing HMQ and its Cabinet agreed position on FoM in the negotiations.

    I think it shows up the journalists that they did not do more digging.
    Though the minutes show that Boris stuck to the government line while on the record.

    So what is the shocking revelation that should be a "straightforward resigning offence"? That off the record he said that he had a more liberal view than the government policy but because of collective responsibility he needed to say the government line? What a shocker!

    Does anyone here think that a single Cabinet minister hasn't done the exact same thing off the record? Hammond? The separation between off the record conversations and minuted on the record collective responsibility is a distinction going back far longer than I can remember. Since when was that a resigning matter?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    eek said:

    JackW said:

    One wonders whether the 2019 general election markets might be of interest ?

    Are you on holiday in October Mike ? .... Asking for a friend ....
    No. Next foreign holiday first fortnight in September
    And if an election is called in July it's on September 12th...
    This is in danger of becoming Smithson's Law.

    "There is a much greater chance of a major political betting event when Mike is on holiday"
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    'anti Semitism-condoning' is carefully chosen, if somewhat lumbering. Boris is perhaps learning delicacy in his elephantine way.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mum anecdote.

    My mum voted Conservative all of her life until 2013, 2014 and 2015, when she flipped to Ukip. Back to Tory in 2017. She's not very political, but having voted Leave in 2016 has to turn the television off now when she hears Grieve, Soubry, Lammy and Stewart. She voted Brexit Party in 2019.

    Boris will likely bring her back. If he delivers...

    I would argue that if your mum has to turn off the TV whenever it features politicians whose views are anathema to her then she is VERY political.

    Mine OTOH genuinely does have zero interest in politics. Too busy watching reruns of Midsomer Murders. The old ones with John Nettles. Doesn't like the new guy.
    My wife likes the old Midsomer Murders too. She is also resolutely apolitical.

    That being said, she did vote Remain, because she was worried about her (Portuguese passport holding) mother being sent home. Personally, I only voted Leave to get rid of the mother-in-law.
    So the move to the States was to make absolutely sure ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    eek said:

    JackW said:

    One wonders whether the 2019 general election markets might be of interest ?

    Are you on holiday in October Mike ? .... Asking for a friend ....
    No. Next foreign holiday first fortnight in September
    And if an election is called in July it's on September 12th...
    This is in danger of becoming Smithson's Law.

    "There is a much greater chance of a major political betting event when Mike is on holiday"
    God help us should he ever retire.

  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Ishmael_Z said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Idle: accepted.

    But intelligent? According to Gove he has a memory like a sieve. How many intelligent people do you know who cannot remember an important conversation they had yesterday?
    1. How many books have you written?

    2. Einstein notoriously had a terrible memory.
    I wouldn't necessarily correlate number of books written with intelligence.
    And Einstein did not require the social intelligence essential in a head of government. A good memory is a given when building trusting relationships, recruitment and delegating.
    Well wriggled. WTF is social intelligence?
    Googles well. Wikipedia has an anticle.

    HR folk go on about such things. I usually ignore them, but apparently it is very important in heads of organisations.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Is this one of those gini coefficient threads where people look at the absolute numbers under Blair but fail to look at the change under the Thatcher/Major government?
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    It appears to be, in substance, a conclusion in search of a coherent supporting argument.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    My wife prefers the new Midsummer Murders. (I know!!)

    Personally, I’m a John Nettles man.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Idle: accepted.

    But intelligent? According to Gove he has a memory like a sieve. How many intelligent people do you know who cannot remember an important conversation they had yesterday?
    1. How many books have you written?

    2. Einstein notoriously had a terrible memory.
    The false syllogism says hello.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2019
    On topic: The Kitchen Cabinet makes a very good point; it seems very likely that the whipping and hustling skills of Gavin Williamson have been important. He was a very effective Chief Whip, and before that PPS to David Cameron.

    However, I don't think his motivation for helping Boris has been revenge for his sacking, just old-fashioned ambition. He wants to make himself crucially important to the winner, as he did in previous roles for May and Cameron, so that he gets a big cabinet post. Unfortunately, he has shown himself to be a bloody awful minister, which suggests things will get awkward.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Cyclefree said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Idle: accepted.

    But intelligent? According to Gove he has a memory like a sieve. How many intelligent people do you know who cannot remember an important conversation they had yesterday?
    1. How many books have you written?

    2. Einstein notoriously had a terrible memory.
    The false syllogism says hello.
    Sorry to sound dim but could you expressly state the false syllogism(s) you are talking about?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    nico67 said:

    The EU will be the ones to decide how much pain will come with no deal .

    What’s been ignored by much of the media is the UKs so called no deal plans don’t survive without co operation from the EU .

    There are very few unilateral measures the UK can put into place .

    The media have failed to ask Bozo if you refuse to honour committments why should the EU come back to the table and even think of a future trade deal.

    The no deal fantasists fail to understand that no deal puts the UK into a very weak position . Especially if it’s trying to do trade deals with other countries .

    Having an orderly departure then a trade deal strengthens the UKs hand because it’s not desperate to sign upto deals with non EU countries , it will also be much easier to transfer other current EU deals across because they have already said they’d recommend that action to those countries .

    The EU holds enormous leverage there , aswell as this other countries will be reluctant to engage with the UK until they know what its trade relationship will be with its biggest market .

    Flag waving and belief in Brexit means zip in the real world . Sadly many Leavers refuse to see reality and just think the world revolves around the UK.

    Very well said.
    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    My wife likes the old Midsomer Murders too. She is also resolutely apolitical.

    That being said, she did vote Remain, because she was worried about her (Portuguese passport holding) mother being sent home. Personally, I only voted Leave to get rid of the mother-in-law.



    Just as I was starting to despair of hearing a single rational reason for voting Leave.
    What have you got against @rcs1000’s mother-in-law?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    On topic: The Kitchen Cabinet makes a very good point; it seems very likely that the whipping and hustling skills of Gavin Williamson have been important. He was a very effective Chief Whip, and before that PPS to David Cameron.

    However, I don't think his motivation for helping Boris has been revenge for his sacking, just old-fashioned ambition. He wants to make himself crucially important to the winner, as he did in previous roles for May and Cameron, so that he gets a big cabinet post. Unfortunately, he has shown himself to be a bloody awful minister, which suggests things will get awkward.

    And Boris was better as Foreign Secretary..
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Idle: accepted.

    But intelligent? According to Gove he has a memory like a sieve. How many intelligent people do you know who cannot remember an important conversation they had yesterday?
    1. How many books have you written?

    2. Einstein notoriously had a terrible memory.
    The false syllogism says hello.
    Sorry to sound dim but could you expressly state the false syllogism(s) you are talking about?
    Einstein was highly intelligent. Einstein had a terrible memory.

    I have a terrible memory. Therefore I’m highly intelligent.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    One wonders whether the 2019 general election markets might be of interest ?

    Are you on holiday in October Mike ? .... Asking for a friend ....
    No. Next foreign holiday first fortnight in September
    Ok ... so taking Smithson's law into account a major political event is destined for early September ..... Hhmmm :

    1. Boris Johnson combs his hair AND tucks his shirt in.
    2. Chris Grayling doesn't cost the taxpayer £100m somewhere.
    3. Rory Stewart fails to attend the opening of an envelope.
    4. Jeremy Corbyn visits a military base .... and escapes unscathed.
    5. Diane Abbott passes a MacDonalds without ordering several bacon and egg Mcmuffins
    6. Chukka Uminna doesn't defect to another party.
    7. Nigel Farage goes dry for the month.
    8. Jo Swinson finds something in her wardrobe that isn't yellow.
    9. Nicola Strugeon speaks of the "Dark Lord" - Alex Salmond.
    10. A general election is called for October.

    I'm opting for the odds on favourite of Diane Abbott with a cheeky "Mike Smithson" 50/1 bet of Jezza getting three cheers from squaddies after visiting the army at Aldershot.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    justin124 said:

    Farron indirectly raises a key question looking ahead.

    How long before Labour members/unions gets really restless at being stuck at 3rd in the polling?

    No HM Opposition Leader has ever survived that for long have they?

    In two polls Labour is in 1st place though!
    It's time for labour voters like you and me to realise our most important task is to get rid of Boris. However much of a diehard Corbynista anyone is they must know by now there's no way he's ever going to win an election. Even against a clown like Boris.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Cyclefree said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Idle: accepted.

    But intelligent? According to Gove he has a memory like a sieve. How many intelligent people do you know who cannot remember an important conversation they had yesterday?
    1. How many books have you written?

    2. Einstein notoriously had a terrible memory.
    The false syllogism says hello.
    Sorry to sound dim but could you expressly state the false syllogism(s) you are talking about?
    Einstein was highly intelligent. Einstein had a terrible memory.

    I have a terrible memory. Therefore I’m highly intelligent.
    Dead wrong. I was replying to the implied syllogism

    No intelligent person has a bad memory
    Boris has a bad memory
    Therefore Boris is not an intelligent person

    by disproving the major premise. If you want it expanded into another syllogism

    Einstein was an intelligent person
    Einstein had a bad memory
    Therefore at least one intelligent person [therefore not "no intelligent person"] has a bad memory.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited June 2019

    JackW said:

    One wonders whether the 2019 general election markets might be of interest ?

    Are you on holiday in October Mike ? .... Asking for a friend ....
    No. Next foreign holiday first fortnight in September
    For a 17th October election first week of September would be about right to announce it under FTPA! :open_mouth:
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    edited June 2019

    Cracking thread on Blair's government and inequality.

    "We are seriously relaxed about people getting filthy rich."

    Said Mandy. A sentiment that has not aged too well.

    But still - his boss certainly paid heed to it once 'free'.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133
    Roger said:

    justin124 said:

    Farron indirectly raises a key question looking ahead.

    How long before Labour members/unions gets really restless at being stuck at 3rd in the polling?

    No HM Opposition Leader has ever survived that for long have they?

    In two polls Labour is in 1st place though!
    It's time for labour voters like you and me to realise our most important task is to get rid of Boris. However much of a diehard Corbynista anyone is they must know by now there's no way he's ever going to win an election. Even against a clown like Boris.
    Get rid of Boris. Corbyn surely
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    malcolmg said:
    Evening Malc.

    Popcorn (and Irn Bru) on stand by for later? :D
  • I understand Chris Greyling is also involved in Johnson's campaign, what could possibly go wrong?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    Einstein wasn't THAT bright. Plenty others brighter. David Willetts?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Whilst the UK media were obsessed with the Tory leadership challenge a report on the effects of no deal on Northern Ireland came and went .

    In a nutshell an economic catastrophe . NI economy has a huge amount of SMEs and this sector will be obliterated with a no deal , farming likely to go to the wall aswell.

    Even if you could put some arrangements in close to the border , the cost of customs compliance means many businesses couldn’t afford that .

    Whats astonishing is that some in the DUP like Sammy Wilson couldn’t care less about no deal, even though business after business there are panicking . It’s despicable that the DUP will become the handmaidens of no deal and will be giving a green light to huge job losses of the constituents they’re supposed to serve .

    Notwithstanding the effects on the peace process .

    Many things are likely to be sacrificed on the altar of Brexit but it’s shameful that 20 years of peace could be thrown into jeopardy because of that .

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    My wife prefers the new Midsummer Murders. (I know!!)

    Personally, I’m a John Nettles man.

    I'm with your wife (on this).

    I prefer the new one. It's a bit more edgy.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    On topic: The Kitchen Cabinet makes a very good point; it seems very likely that the whipping and hustling skills of Gavin Williamson have been important. He was a very effective Chief Whip, and before that PPS to David Cameron.

    However, I don't think his motivation for helping Boris has been revenge for his sacking, just old-fashioned ambition. He wants to make himself crucially important to the winner, as he did in previous roles for May and Cameron, so that he gets a big cabinet post. Unfortunately, he has shown himself to be a bloody awful minister, which suggests things will get awkward.

    Might the best job to give him not be that which he's already shown good at? Chief Whip.

    At least until Brexit is resolved, a man of his talents would be useful in the Whips department.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Idle: accepted.

    But intelligent? According to Gove he has a memory like a sieve. How many intelligent people do you know who cannot remember an important conversation they had yesterday?
    1. How many books have you written?

    2. Einstein notoriously had a terrible memory.
    The false syllogism says hello.
    Sorry to sound dim but could you expressly state the false syllogism(s) you are talking about?
    Einstein was highly intelligent. Einstein had a terrible memory.

    I have a terrible memory. Therefore I’m highly intelligent.
    Dead wrong. I was replying to the implied syllogism

    No intelligent person has a bad memory
    Boris has a bad memory
    Therefore Boris is not an intelligent person

    by disproving the major premise. If you want it expanded into another syllogism

    Einstein was an intelligent person
    Einstein had a bad memory
    Therefore at least one intelligent person [therefore not "no intelligent person"] has a bad memory.
    Fair enough.

    I was responding to the suggestion that because both had a bad memory they were both intelligent.

    Boris may well be bright. But he seems to me to lack qualities of character, without which his intelligence is pointless and potentially dangerous. I have worked with many people like him in the City. More than a few ended up in trouble.

    Quite unsuitable for any position of leadership or responsibility. IMO.
  • PaulMPaulM Posts: 613
    Would have thought that the black arts of the whips office would be much less effective in a secret ballot rather than a recorded Parliamentary vote.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    On topic: The Kitchen Cabinet makes a very good point; it seems very likely that the whipping and hustling skills of Gavin Williamson have been important. He was a very effective Chief Whip, and before that PPS to David Cameron.

    However, I don't think his motivation for helping Boris has been revenge for his sacking, just old-fashioned ambition. He wants to make himself crucially important to the winner, as he did in previous roles for May and Cameron, so that he gets a big cabinet post. Unfortunately, he has shown himself to be a bloody awful minister, which suggests things will get awkward.

    Sorry if this has been answered before but is David Cameron (whose PPS GW once was) part of Team Boris? Cameron, like Boris, ducked debates, and for reasons I do not claim to understand, Cameron seemed far more relaxed about Boris campaigning for Leave than about Gove doing so.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Thanks, that's an interesting and thought provoking read.

    I find Richard Leonard “interesting” and certainly “thought-provoking”, but hardly persuasive.

    This is most definitely a Richard Leonard thread. A bit of a Z-lister.
    I know there's general PB disdain for Williamson but he certainly seems effective in behind the scenes roles.

    It is perhaps another indictment of May's leadership that she moved him to a position he wasn't suited to.

    Boris, being idle but intelligent, might prove better at putting the square pegs in the square holes.
    Idle: accepted.

    But intelligent? According to Gove he has a memory like a sieve. How many intelligent people do you know who cannot remember an important conversation they had yesterday?
    Lots.

    I think for many people intelligence and memory can sometimes be inversely correlated as people's thoughts run on to other issues rather than sticking with that which has already been addressed.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    I
    nico67 said:

    Whilst the UK media were obsessed with the Tory leadership challenge a report on the effects of no deal on Northern Ireland came and went .

    In a nutshell an economic catastrophe . NI economy has a huge amount of SMEs and this sector will be obliterated with a no deal , farming likely to go to the wall aswell.

    Even if you could put some arrangements in close to the border , the cost of customs compliance means many businesses couldn’t afford that .

    Whats astonishing is that some in the DUP like Sammy Wilson couldn’t care less about no deal, even though business after business there are panicking . It’s despicable that the DUP will become the handmaidens of no deal and will be giving a green light to huge job losses of the constituents they’re supposed to serve .

    Notwithstanding the effects on the peace process .

    Many things are likely to be sacrificed on the altar of Brexit but it’s shameful that 20 years of peace could be thrown into jeopardy because of that .

    No Deal Brexiteers are risking people’s lives in NI.

    “Shameful” is far too polite a word to describe that.
This discussion has been closed.