> @Barnesian said: > A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes. > > It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs. > > I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role. > > > Ah, I see. Of course. The MPs choose two candidates to put to the electorate, the electorate votes in their chosen leader - and the MPs refuse to go along with a decision they consider wrong. > > That sounds familiar. > > Good evening, everyone. > > The electorate in this case being the Tory membership heavily infiltrated by Kippers. It is not the general public. > > It is a democratic outrage that this elderly right-wing group can select our PM and determine the future of the UK for generations. Luckily our democracy has the answer. MPs can tell them to take a running jump.
Remind me who voted for Brown to take over from Blair? Not even the MPs
All this talk of democratic outrage is a load of nonsense. We are a Parliamentary democracy - we don't directly elect our PM. And the number of times that PMs have changed mid-Parliament are so numerous as to be part of our system.
> @Morris_Dancer said: > Mr. kinabalu, did Corbyn attend a protest against Xi Jinping? > > Edited extra bits: and it's weird how he's happy to meet with 'our friends' in Hamas and Hezbollah but Donald Trump* is beyond the pale. > > *Trump is an arse. But he hasn't thrown any political rivals from rooftops (or gay people likewise).
> > > > > I should jolly well hope he is attending and speaking.
> > > > >
> > > > > If a left wing opposition leader in Britain did not actively and vigorously protest the visit of the biggest piece of reactionary right wing garbage that has blown this way in many a year then I for one would be cancelling my subscription.
> > > >
> > > > Yet look at the people he is happy to talk with.
> > > >
> > > > If Trump was left wing he would welcome him with open arms.
> > >
> > > Well I wouldn't. It's not so much the policies as the person.
> > >
> > > Please do not underestimate the toxic global impact of such a bottom drawer individual holding the highest elected office on the planet.
> >
> > He was elected to office whether you like it or not
>
> Is that what you'll have on your placard at the trump protest, under the picture of Maduro?
Not me - I wont be at the protest
It should never have been a state visit, he has done nothing to deserve the honor and is taking the piss but if he come just for the D Day celebrations then to oppose the elected representative of the US would have been wrong. He is milking the pageantry for his own political ends and we should not be part of it.
> @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > @kinabalu said: > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > > @kinabalu said: > > > > > > Corbyn is as obnoxious to many as Trump is to others. > > > > > > Both totally unsuitable for office > > > > I could say the same about (say) Boris Johnson. > > > > But it ought to be possible to retain a sense of outrage about Trump without getting sidetracked into the minutae of our domestic politics. > > > > All that's required to do so is some semblance of a moral compass. > > Corbyn is not a minutae of domestic politics. He is as obnoxious as Trump > > We would all be safer if both of them would disappear from public office
> I'm finding the leaver/remainer dynamic interesting wrt Huawei. The decision to keep them seems to falling along those lines with remainers supporting Huawei/China and leavers against.
>
> I'm actually surprised that so many remainers have blindly decided to fall in line behind a Chinese government front because they oppose Trump. It's basically the most blatant case of inviting espionage but remainers are lining up to support them, at least by Twatter and online comments (though not here, at least).
>
> It really does feel like we've got to a situation of remainers thinking "anyone who supported leave is wrong and I'll oppose them regardless of the subject" and vice versa, which is not a welcome development.
I agree on the general point, but must admit I didn't realise almost anyone was backing/trusting China/Huawei on this. Too stuck in my bubble, apparently.
(That last bit isn't meant to be snide, I mean it sincerely.)
Just looking through the comments on The Times article and it definitely seems like it's falling along leave/remain lines. With remainers all banging on about leavers giving in to US pressure and leavers all saying Trump has it right about them.
It makes no sense to me.
Perhaps all our battles are just three to four decades out of date.
I wouldn’t touch Huawei with a barge pole. The ramifications of it constructing our national infrastructure should be obvious.
I wouldn't touch 5G with a barge poll. High intensity very short wave length radiation with untested long term effects on health. Small aerials sprouting everywhere because it only has a short range. There will be a lot of resistance.
> @justin124 said: > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > @justin124 said: > > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > > > @justin124 said: > > > > > > @Barnesian said: > > > > > > > @Pulpstar said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @eek said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @malcolmg said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming that Boris becomes leader, if sufficient Tory MPs resign the Whip to reduce their number to 308 , there must be a good chance that a VNOC will pass. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hard to see many vacating the trough unless at gunpoint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would only take 5 MPs. Granted it's still unlikely but it's not impossible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are more than 5 arch-Remainers on the Tory benches. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And more than 5 ultra-Brexiteers obviously too. There is also the DUP who will try and bring down the Gov't if May's deal somehow gets through (She might be politically dead but her deal could yet be resurrected) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tory MPs don't want a general election, but presumably they'd prefer one to Corbyn being offered the chance to form a minority government in the event of a VONC. > > > > > > > > > > > > A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes. > > > > > > > > > > > > It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role. > > > > > > > > > > Labour MPs who failed to obey the Whip on a VNOC would lose the Whip and be deselected. > > > > > > > > And you think they would care. Wear it as a badge of honour and defect to Lib Dems or Greens > > > > > > I suspect they would have some awareness of the likelihood of being re-elected under those labels in a general election. > > > > I very much doubt it. I expect they would want to be with the winners > > They would not be so naive as to place much trust in EU election results - particularly when polls already have the LibDems down at 16%.
You had better believe it. Both main parties are seriously under threat and in labours case from the lib dems but also a surging green movement, not only here but throughout Europe
> @justin124 said: > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > @kinabalu said: > > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > > > @kinabalu said: > > > > > > > > Corbyn is as obnoxious to many as Trump is to others. > > > > > > > > Both totally unsuitable for office > > > > > > I could say the same about (say) Boris Johnson. > > > > > > But it ought to be possible to retain a sense of outrage about Trump without getting sidetracked into the minutae of our domestic politics. > > > > > > All that's required to do so is some semblance of a moral compass. > > > > Corbyn is not a minutae of domestic politics. He is as obnoxious as Trump > > > > We would all be safer if both of them would disappear from public office > > Boris is just as malign a human being as Trump.
He is not as bad as Corbyn and I am not one of his fans
> @argyllrs said: > > @Barnesian said: > > > @justin124 said: > > > > @Barnesian said: > > > > > @Pulpstar said: > > > > > > > > > > @eek said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @malcolmg said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming that Boris becomes leader, if sufficient Tory MPs resign the Whip to reduce their number to 308 , there must be a good chance that a VNOC will pass. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hard to see many vacating the trough unless at gunpoint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would only take 5 MPs. Granted it's still unlikely but it's not impossible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are more than 5 arch-Remainers on the Tory benches. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And more than 5 ultra-Brexiteers obviously too. There is also the DUP who will try and bring down the Gov't if May's deal somehow gets through (She might be politically dead but her deal could yet be resurrected) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tory MPs don't want a general election, but presumably they'd prefer one to Corbyn being offered the chance to form a minority government in the event of a VONC. > > > > > > > > A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes. > > > > > > > > It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs. > > > > > > > > I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role. > > > > > > Labour MPs who failed to obey the Whip on a VNOC would lose the Whip and be deselected. > > ********************************************************************** > > > > Not if it was the majority of the Labour party! If Corbyn whipped his MPs for a VONC for a GE which implied a crash out because there wouldn't be time to revoke or ask for an extension, he would have a major revolt. Normal rules wouldn't apply. > > Remainer Con MPs need to accept that if we do not leave the EU then the Tory party is finished.
True.
But I think the Tory party is also finished if they take us out of the EU without a deal.
It's a problem for the Tory MPs, as they also can't bring themselves to vote for a deal.
Hmm. Sir Simon seems to think that Theresa's deal is not dead:
'All this screams at the Tory hard-liners from the rooftops that if they want Brexit, they should resuscitate May’s deal and fast. Britain’s departure from the EU was a democratic choice. The manner of its departure was left to parliament, where it is now at the mercy of Tory oligarchs who have apparently lost their sanity. Grownups know that soft Brexit is the only realistic way forward. Increasingly it looks like that, or remain.'
I wonder if the idea will gain currency as the failings of No Deal become more and more horribly exposed. Perhaps Rory is a prophet whose time is still to come.
A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes.
It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs.
I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role.
Ah, I see. Of course. The MPs choose two candidates to put to the electorate, the electorate votes in their chosen leader - and the MPs refuse to go along with a decision they consider wrong.
That sounds familiar.
Good evening, everyone.
The electorate in this case being the Tory membership heavily infiltrated by Kippers. It is not the general public.
It is a democratic outrage that this elderly right-wing group can select our PM and determine the future of the UK for generations. Luckily our democracy has the answer. MPs can tell them to take a running jump.
Certainly they can and, as we know, they will. It would be more honest, however, for the MPs to amend the rules so that they choose (or fight over choosing) the leader/PM directly without this sham election.
Or split into two parties if a large minority can't follow the leader who is chosen.
I'd like to tell the lot, all sides, to take a running jump. A GE where no present or past MP is allowed to stand.
> @Pulpstar said: > A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes. > > It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs. > > I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role. > > > Ah, I see. Of course. The MPs choose two candidates to put to the electorate, the electorate votes in their chosen leader - and the MPs refuse to go along with a decision they consider wrong. > > That sounds familiar. > > Good evening, everyone. > > The electorate in this case being the Tory membership heavily infiltrated by Kippers. It is not the general public. > > It is a democratic outrage that this elderly right-wing group can select our PM and determine the future of the UK for generations. Luckily our democracy has the answer. MPs can tell them to take a running jump. > > In fairness, democracy at all stages has an answer. Whether or not it's one people like is another matter, fwiw right now I think the forces of remain would have an advantage in a straight referendum but the forces of leave are favoured in a FPTP election.
Exactly, just 5% more than the 45% for Yes in 2014 for the SNP in 2015 produced a landslide for the nationalists under FPTP where they won all but 3 seats in Scotland
> A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes.
>
> It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs.
>
> I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role.
>
>
> Ah, I see. Of course. The MPs choose two candidates to put to the electorate, the electorate votes in their chosen leader - and the MPs refuse to go along with a decision they consider wrong.
>
> That sounds familiar.
>
> Good evening, everyone.
>
> The electorate in this case being the Tory membership heavily infiltrated by Kippers. It is not the general public.
>
> It is a democratic outrage that this elderly right-wing group can select our PM and determine the future of the UK for generations. Luckily our democracy has the answer. MPs can tell them to take a running jump.
Remind me who voted for Brown to take over from Blair? Not even the MPs
All this talk of democratic outrage is a load of nonsense. We are a Parliamentary democracy - we don't directly elect our PM. And the number of times that PMs have changed mid-Parliament are so numerous as to be part of our system.
It was the MPs who voted for Brown, or at least acquiesced in Brown, by not putting up anyone to oppose him. That's OK. He had the confidence of the house.
The problem we have is letting party members chose leaders and therefore PMs because party members are often more extreme than general supporters. I think it is OK for party members to choose the LOTO but the PM has massive executive power and must have the confidence of Parliament as a whole. Otherwise it is ripe for a political coup. Anyway, those are the rules. VONC.
> @Barnesian said: > > @justin124 said: > > > @Barnesian said: > > > > @Pulpstar said: > > > > > > > > @eek said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @malcolmg said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming that Boris becomes leader, if sufficient Tory MPs resign the Whip to reduce their number to 308 , there must be a good chance that a VNOC will pass. > > > > > > > > > Hard to see many vacating the trough unless at gunpoint > > > > > > > > > > > It would only take 5 MPs. Granted it's still unlikely but it's not impossible. > > > > > > > > > > There are more than 5 arch-Remainers on the Tory benches. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And more than 5 ultra-Brexiteers obviously too. There is also the DUP who will try and bring down the Gov't if May's deal somehow gets through (She might be politically dead but her deal could yet be resurrected) > > > > > > > > > > > > Tory MPs don't want a general election, but presumably they'd prefer one to Corbyn being offered the chance to form a minority government in the event of a VONC. > > > > > > A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes. > > > > > > It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs. > > > > > > I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role. > > > > Labour MPs who failed to obey the Whip on a VNOC would lose the Whip and be deselected. > ********************************************************************** > > Not if it was the majority of the Labour party! If Corbyn whipped his MPs for a VONC for a GE which implied a crash out because there wouldn't be time to revoke or ask for an extension, he would have a major revolt. Normal rules wouldn't apply.
Any Labour MP who supported the Tories on a VNOC - or indeed abstained - would be deselected. Absolutely no doubt about that. Ditto for Tory MPs who supported such a motion.
> @justin124 said: > > @Barnesian said: > > > @justin124 said: > > > > @Barnesian said: > > > > > @Pulpstar said: > > > > > > > > > > @eek said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @malcolmg said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming that Boris becomes leader, if sufficient Tory MPs resign the Whip to reduce their number to 308 , there must be a good chance that a VNOC will pass. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hard to see many vacating the trough unless at gunpoint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would only take 5 MPs. Granted it's still unlikely but it's not impossible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are more than 5 arch-Remainers on the Tory benches. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And more than 5 ultra-Brexiteers obviously too. There is also the DUP who will try and bring down the Gov't if May's deal somehow gets through (She might be politically dead but her deal could yet be resurrected) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tory MPs don't want a general election, but presumably they'd prefer one to Corbyn being offered the chance to form a minority government in the event of a VONC. > > > > > > > > A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes. > > > > > > > > It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs. > > > > > > > > I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role. > > > > > > Labour MPs who failed to obey the Whip on a VNOC would lose the Whip and be deselected. > > ********************************************************************** > > > > Not if it was the majority of the Labour party! If Corbyn whipped his MPs for a VONC for a GE which implied a crash out because there wouldn't be time to revoke or ask for an extension, he would have a major revolt. Normal rules wouldn't apply. > > Any Labour MP who supported the Tories on a VNOC - or indeed abstained - would be deselected. Absolutely no doubt about that. Ditto for Tory MPs who supported such a motion.
So a majority of labour mps in those circumstances would be deselected leaving a labour party facing collapse
A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes.
It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs.
I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role.
Ah, I see. Of course. The MPs choose two candidates to put to the electorate, the electorate votes in their chosen leader - and the MPs refuse to go along with a decision they consider wrong.
That sounds familiar.
Good evening, everyone.
The electorate in this case being the Tory membership heavily infiltrated by Kippers. It is not the general public.
It is a democratic outrage that this elderly right-wing group can select our PM and determine the future of the UK for generations. Luckily our democracy has the answer. MPs can tell them to take a running jump.
Certainly they can and, as we know, they will. It would be more honest, however, for the MPs to amend the rules so that they choose (or fight over choosing) the leader/PM directly without this sham election.
Or split into two parties if a large minority can't follow the leader who is chosen.
I'd like to tell the lot, all sides, to take a running jump. A GE where no present or past MP is allowed to stand.
> @Stark_Dawning said: > Hmm. Sir Simon seems to think that Theresa's deal is not dead: > > 'All this screams at the Tory hard-liners from the rooftops that if they want Brexit, they should resuscitate May’s deal and fast. Britain’s departure from the EU was a democratic choice. The manner of its departure was left to parliament, where it is now at the mercy of Tory oligarchs who have apparently lost their sanity. Grownups know that soft Brexit is the only realistic way forward. Increasingly it looks like that, or remain.' > > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/03/tory-leadership-oligarchy-brexit-boris-johnson > > I wonder if the idea will gain currency as the failings of No Deal become more and more horribly exposed. Perhaps Rory is a prophet whose time is still to come.
Sir Simon in that article actually calls May's Deal 'soft Brexit'
Is there anything more ridiculous than the fact the BBC's 7 o'clock news programme on BBC4 and the BBC News Channel is called "Beyond 100 days"? Maybe it's time for them to move on from Trump unexpectedly winning the 2016 election.
A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes.
It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs.
I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role.
Ah, I see. Of course. The MPs choose two candidates to put to the electorate, the electorate votes in their chosen leader - and the MPs refuse to go along with a decision they consider wrong.
That sounds familiar.
Good evening, everyone.
The electorate in this case being the Tory membership heavily infiltrated by Kippers. It is not the general public.
It is a democratic outrage that this elderly right-wing group can select our PM and determine the future of the UK for generations. Luckily our democracy has the answer. MPs can tell them to take a running jump.
In fairness, democracy at all stages has an answer. Whether or not it's one people like is another matter, fwiw right now I think the forces of remain would have an advantage in a straight referendum but the forces of leave are favoured in a FPTP election.
> @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > @justin124 said: > > > @Barnesian said: > > > > @justin124 said: > > > > > @Barnesian said: > > > > > > @Pulpstar said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @eek said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @malcolmg said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming that Boris becomes leader, if sufficient Tory MPs resign the Whip to reduce their number to 308 , there must be a good chance that a VNOC will pass. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hard to see many vacating the trough unless at gunpoint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would only take 5 MPs. Granted it's still unlikely but it's not impossible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are more than 5 arch-Remainers on the Tory benches. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And more than 5 ultra-Brexiteers obviously too. There is also the DUP who will try and bring down the Gov't if May's deal somehow gets through (She might be politically dead but her deal could yet be resurrected) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tory MPs don't want a general election, but presumably they'd prefer one to Corbyn being offered the chance to form a minority government in the event of a VONC. > > > > > > > > > > A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes. > > > > > > > > > > It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs. > > > > > > > > > > I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role. > > > > > > > > Labour MPs who failed to obey the Whip on a VNOC would lose the Whip and be deselected. > > > ********************************************************************** > > > > > > Not if it was the majority of the Labour party! If Corbyn whipped his MPs for a VONC for a GE which implied a crash out because there wouldn't be time to revoke or ask for an extension, he would have a major revolt. Normal rules wouldn't apply. > > > > Any Labour MP who supported the Tories on a VNOC - or indeed abstained - would be deselected. Absolutely no doubt about that. Ditto for Tory MPs who supported such a motion. > > So a majority of labour mps in those circumstances would be deselected leaving a labour party facing collapse
There would be new candidates selected to replace them in such a scenario. But it is pure fantasy to believe that Labour MPs would behave in that way.
> @justin124 said: > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > @justin124 said: > > > > @Barnesian said: > > > > > @justin124 said: > > > > > > @Barnesian said: > > > > > > > @Pulpstar said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @eek said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @malcolmg said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming that Boris becomes leader, if sufficient Tory MPs resign the Whip to reduce their number to 308 , there must be a good chance that a VNOC will pass. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hard to see many vacating the trough unless at gunpoint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would only take 5 MPs. Granted it's still unlikely but it's not impossible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are more than 5 arch-Remainers on the Tory benches. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And more than 5 ultra-Brexiteers obviously too. There is also the DUP who will try and bring down the Gov't if May's deal somehow gets through (She might be politically dead but her deal could yet be resurrected) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tory MPs don't want a general election, but presumably they'd prefer one to Corbyn being offered the chance to form a minority government in the event of a VONC. > > > > > > > > > > > > A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes. > > > > > > > > > > > > It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role. > > > > > > > > > > Labour MPs who failed to obey the Whip on a VNOC would lose the Whip and be deselected. > > > > ********************************************************************** > > > > > > > > Not if it was the majority of the Labour party! If Corbyn whipped his MPs for a VONC for a GE which implied a crash out because there wouldn't be time to revoke or ask for an extension, he would have a major revolt. Normal rules wouldn't apply. > > > > > > Any Labour MP who supported the Tories on a VNOC - or indeed abstained - would be deselected. Absolutely no doubt about that. Ditto for Tory MPs who supported such a motion. > > > > So a majority of labour mps in those circumstances would be deselected leaving a labour party facing collapse > > There would be new candidates selected to replace them in such a scenario. But it is pure fantasy to believe that Labour MPs would behave in that way.
> @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > @Stereotomy said: > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > > Is that what you'll have on your placard at the trump protest, under the picture of Maduro? > > Not me - I wont be at the protest
I don't condemn you one iota for that. Trafalgar Square is a long way from Wales. Usual London centric crap when it comes to political protests.
> @kinabalu said: > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > @kinabalu said: > > > > Corbyn is as obnoxious to many as Trump is to others. > > > > Both totally unsuitable for office > > I could say the same about (say) Boris Johnson. > > But it ought to be possible to retain a sense of outrage about Trump without getting sidetracked into the minutae of our domestic politics. > > All that's required to do so is some semblance of a moral compass.
I think Big G has said the same about Boris, but perhaps not so much recently.
> @nichomar said: > Does anyone have any feedback on what the LDs are doing in Peterborough? > > I think they have all gone to B&R where the operation is up and running
Are they confident of getting the 10% signatures bearing in mind it is the biggest constituency outside of Scotland and therefore a bit of an ask?
> @nichomar said: > Does anyone have any feedback on what the LDs are doing in Peterborough? > > I think they have all gone to B&R where the operation is up and running
Given the Brexit Party won Powys with 35% of the vote in the European elections and the LDs were only second on 24% if the LDs do succeed in their petition it may not produce quite the outcome they intend, especially if Farage's Party gain momentum by winning Peterborough on Thursday
> @kinabalu said: > "Corbyn is as obnoxious as Trump". > > That is a direct quote from down the thread. > > I make an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with such cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship.
I'd take Trump over Corbyn any day. Call it Tory bigotry if you will, but I have thought long and hard about antisemitism and have decided that I am opposed to it.
> Does anyone have any feedback on what the LDs are doing in Peterborough?
>
> I think they have all gone to B&R where the operation is up and running
Given the Brexit Party won Powys with 35% of the vote in the European elections and the LDs were only second on 24% if the LDs do succeed in their petition it may not produce quite the outcome they intend, especially if Farage's Party gain momentum by winning Peterborough on Thursday
I’m sure you can bet on TBP Ltd if that’s what you think.
> @nichomar said: > > It should never have been a state visit, he has done nothing to deserve the honor and is taking the piss but if he come just for the D Day celebrations then to oppose the elected representative of the US would have been wrong. He is milking the pageantry for his own political ends and we should not be part of it.
+1
Or more exuberantly and suitably - BANG.
Forget Brexit, this is a national humiliation of the first order.
If you don't feel it you are not a patriot in any real sense of the word.
Unless it isn't. It would have been before the 1922 started making noises about the need to rush through the process in case the new PM loses a confidence vote that no-one expects to be called. Something is up. I don't know what is up but suddenly I am nervous.
> @kjh said: > > @nichomar said: > > Does anyone have any feedback on what the LDs are doing in Peterborough? > > > > I think they have all gone to B&R where the operation is up and running > > Are they confident of getting the 10% signatures bearing in mind it is the biggest constituency outside of Scotland and therefore a bit of an ask?
Most of the voters live within reach of the six locations so I don't think it's much of an obstacle. I'm not sure whether local people are up in arms over Chris Davies's behaviour, but I expect he has enough opponents for the petition to succeed.
If it weren't for the Brexit Party, I'd expect the B&R by-election to be close; maybe even a Tory hold. I suspect that the intervention of the Brexit Party will make it easier for the LDs.
> @kinabalu said: > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > @Stereotomy said: > > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > > > > Is that what you'll have on your placard at the trump protest, under the picture of Maduro? > > > > Not me - I wont be at the protest > > I don't condemn you one iota for that. Trafalgar Square is a long way from Wales. Usual London centric crap when it comes to political protests.
The only protest I would join would be against Corbyn if he was ever elected
The Brexit press is starting to reverse ferret on American trade deals. It has suddenly dawned on them that in a forced choice between EU rules and American rules, the EU ones are a lot less scary.
> @MaxPB said: > "Corbyn is as obnoxious as Trump". > > > > That is a direct quote from down the thread. > > > > I make an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with such cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship. > > Yes, Corbyn is much more obnoxious than Trump.
But I was making an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship.
> @kinabalu said: > > @MaxPB said: > > "Corbyn is as obnoxious as Trump". > > > > > > > > That is a direct quote from down the thread. > > > > > > > > I make an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with such cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship. > > > > Yes, Corbyn is much more obnoxious than Trump. > > But I was making an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship. > > Why are you wilfully ignoring that? Because it is so much pompous arsehattery, at a guess.
> @Ishmael_Z said: > > @kinabalu said: > > > @MaxPB said: > > > "Corbyn is as obnoxious as Trump". > > > > > > > > > > > > That is a direct quote from down the thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > I make an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with such cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship. > > > > > > Yes, Corbyn is much more obnoxious than Trump. > > > > But I was making an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship. > > > > Why are you wilfully ignoring that? > Because it is so much pompous arsehattery, at a guess.
The Secret Service have special digital window displays in The Beast that play culturally specific cheering crowds, they find it makes life much easier. They can adjust the number of black and brown faces, depending on the Don's mood.
Rory Stewart doing a John Major in Hyde Park. I doubt he’ll get anywhere but he is one of the few who is bothering to engage with the voters for real - not in expensively produced videos. He deserves considerable credit for that.
> @Cyclefree said: > Rory Stewart doing a John Major in Hyde Park. I doubt he’ll get anywhere but he is one of the few who is bothering to engage with the voters for real - not in expensively produced videos. He deserves considerable credit for that.
I have met Rory Stewart several times and have always admired him.
My faith was however slightly shaken when I listened to this weekend's interview with James Kirkup, in which he proposed a citizens' assembly as the solution to Brexit, without any indication as to how this would bind parliament.
I would appreciate your view (the Brexit bit starts at around 13 minutes in)...
> @Ishmael_Z said: > > @kinabalu said: > > "Corbyn is as obnoxious as Trump". > > > > That is a direct quote from down the thread. > > > > I make an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with such cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship. > > I'd take Trump over Corbyn any day. Call it Tory bigotry if you will, but I have thought long and hard about antisemitism and have decided that I am opposed to it.
I sense very strongly that you are far from being a bigot - Tory or otherwise.
Would question your judgement however. If Trump thought antisemitism would play for him he would be blasting it in Dolby soundaround.
Please do not shruggify this ghastly ghastly individual.
That he has become the American President is shocking. SHOCKING.
> > I make an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with such cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship.
>
> I'd take Trump over Corbyn any day. Call it Tory bigotry if you will, but I have thought long and hard about antisemitism and have decided that I am opposed to it.
I sense very strongly that you are far from being a bigot - Tory or otherwise.
Would question your judgement however. If Trump thought antisemitism would play for him he would be blasting it in Dolby soundaround.
Please do not shruggify this ghastly ghastly individual.
That he has become the American President is shocking. SHOCKING.
> There was nobody there to greet him the Mall was empty.
The Secret Service have special digital window displays in The Beast that play culturally specific cheering crowds, they find it makes life much easier. They can adjust the number of black and brown faces, depending on the Don's mood.
They should recruit from PB - plenty of fawning Trumptons on here!
Peterborough by-election. As I had no takers before, what odds am I offered on a charity wager (loser to pay a charity of the winners choice) that the Official Monster Raving Loonys will beat the Conservatives on Thursday. Come on, this is a betting site, not a moaning one!
> @Dadge said: > > @kjh said: > > > @nichomar said: > > > Does anyone have any feedback on what the LDs are doing in Peterborough? > > > > > > I think they have all gone to B&R where the operation is up and running > > > > Are they confident of getting the 10% signatures bearing in mind it is the biggest constituency outside of Scotland and therefore a bit of an ask? > > Most of the voters live within reach of the six locations so I don't think it's much of an obstacle. I'm not sure whether local people are up in arms over Chris Davies's behaviour, but I expect he has enough opponents for the petition to succeed. > > If it weren't for the Brexit Party, I'd expect the B&R by-election to be close; maybe even a Tory hold. I suspect that the intervention of the Brexit Party will make it easier for the LDs.
On the European elections results the Brexit Party would actually win Brecon and Radnor
It does seem quite likely he has enough to get through. Welcome to our next PM I guess. Either he will stun me and actually acheive major things, or he could be the shortest serving PM in history, or near enough.
I'm afraid I simply don't believe Paul Waugh's source. If 'twere so, Boris would be 1.3. This is an attempt to manufacture momentum and an aura of inevitability, and so wish the 80 MPs into existence. It might work.
God Almighty! Why does anyone think he is fit to be PM beats me. He was a failure as Foreign Secretary, is not to be trusted, is lazy and has no fucking idea what to do next other than bluster and pretend that if he shouts at Jonny Foreigner they will do what they are told.
> > In practice 80 MPs would probably be enough to get into the last two.
>
> It does seem quite likely he has enough to get through. Welcome to our next PM I guess. Either he will stun me and actually acheive major things, or he could be the shortest serving PM in history, or near enough.
God Almighty! Why does anyone think he is fit to be PM beats me. He was a failure as Foreign Secretary, is not to be trusted, is lazy and has no fucking idea what to do next other than bluster and pretend that if he shouts at Jonny Foreigner they will do what they are told.
We will be able to tell a great deal by who he surrounds himself with in Government.
> @Cyclefree said: > > @kle4 said: > > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > > > @Scott_P said: > > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135624986289459201 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135625265126789122 > > > > > > In practice 80 MPs would probably be enough to get into the last two. > > > > It does seem quite likely he has enough to get through. Welcome to our next PM I guess. Either he will stun me and actually acheive major things, or he could be the shortest serving PM in history, or near enough. > > God Almighty! Why does anyone think he is fit to be PM beats me. He was a failure as Foreign Secretary, is not to be trusted, is lazy and has no fucking idea what to do next other than bluster and pretend that if he shouts at Jonny Foreigner they will do what they are told. > >
--------------------- Unfortunately at least 40 MPs, likely double that, believe the same, or they think he might win a GE and so are ignoring their misgivings. We can only hope he has hidden depths, or we'll be getting PM Corbyn or no deal, or both.
As I had no takers before, what odds am I offered on a charity wager (loser to pay a charity of the winners choice) that the Official Monster Raving Loonys will beat the Conservatives on Thursday.
Come on, this is a betting site, not a moaning one!
Which side do you want - OMRLP or the clowns in the Tories ?
> @Cyclefree said: > > @kle4 said: > > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > > > @Scott_P said: > > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135624986289459201 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135625265126789122 > > > > > > In practice 80 MPs would probably be enough to get into the last two. > > > > It does seem quite likely he has enough to get through. Welcome to our next PM I guess. Either he will stun me and actually acheive major things, or he could be the shortest serving PM in history, or near enough. > > God Almighty! Why does anyone think he is fit to be PM beats me. He was a failure as Foreign Secretary, is not to be trusted, is lazy and has no fucking idea what to do next other than bluster and pretend that if he shouts at Jonny Foreigner they will do what they are told.
And like Trump, he might survive a full term despite all the odds. But the circumstances are much worse for Boris than they are for Trump. May's style meant she could navigate the icebergs one after the other. Boris's style means he's going to hit the first one he encounters. I'm still expecting that we'll have a general election this year. In the end what might save Boris are the people. If anyone has the charisma to pull off an unlikely election victory, it's him, and the current political realignment may turn out to be a much bigger problem for Corbyn than for Boris.
As I had no takers before, what odds am I offered on a charity wager (loser to pay a charity of the winners choice) that the Official Monster Raving Loonys will beat the Conservatives on Thursday.
Come on, this is a betting site, not a moaning one!
It is a betting site (or at least it should be, see past emails). We are punters: we give money to bookies (or similar entities) in the hope of getting more back later. What you are asking for is something like a sportsbook bookmaker or a betting exchange to match your bet. That's not really what PB offers. Perhaps Betfair Exchange would be better suited to your needs? Conversely if you would like to quote odds and act as a bookmaker then somebody may think it worthwhile to bet with you, but that would depend on the odds you proffer.
> @Dadge said: > > @Cyclefree said: > > > @kle4 said: > > > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > > > > @Scott_P said: > > > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135624986289459201 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135625265126789122 > > > > > > > > In practice 80 MPs would probably be enough to get into the last two. > > > > > > It does seem quite likely he has enough to get through. Welcome to our next PM I guess. Either he will stun me and actually acheive major things, or he could be the shortest serving PM in history, or near enough. > > > > God Almighty! Why does anyone think he is fit to be PM beats me. He was a failure as Foreign Secretary, is not to be trusted, is lazy and has no fucking idea what to do next other than bluster and pretend that if he shouts at Jonny Foreigner they will do what they are told. > > And like Trump, he might survive a full term despite all the odds. But the circumstances are much worse for Boris than they are for Trump. May's style meant she could navigate the icebergs one after the other. Boris's style means he's going to hit the first one he encounters. I'm still expecting that we'll have a general election this year. In the end what might save Boris are the people. If anyone has the charisma to pull off an unlikely election victory, it's him, and the current political realignment may turn out to be a much bigger problem for Corbyn than for Boris.
> @Cyclefree said: > > @kle4 said: > > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > > > @Scott_P said: > > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135624986289459201 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135625265126789122 > > > > > > In practice 80 MPs would probably be enough to get into the last two. > > > > It does seem quite likely he has enough to get through. Welcome to our next PM I guess. Either he will stun me and actually acheive major things, or he could be the shortest serving PM in history, or near enough. > > God Almighty! Why does anyone think he is fit to be PM beats me. He was a failure as Foreign Secretary, is not to be trusted, is lazy and has no fucking idea what to do next other than bluster and pretend that if he shouts at Jonny Foreigner they will do what they are told. > >
He is such a malign human being. We know full well that there is no way that the PLP would have put Corbyn on the ballot had it been presented with the same hurdle availble now to Tory MPs. That so many are prepared to hand power to such a man really does speak volumes for the lack of any sense of moral decency at the core of their party.
> > > In practice 80 MPs would probably be enough to get into the last two.
> >
> > It does seem quite likely he has enough to get through. Welcome to our next PM I guess. Either he will stun me and actually acheive major things, or he could be the shortest serving PM in history, or near enough.
>
> God Almighty! Why does anyone think he is fit to be PM beats me. He was a failure as Foreign Secretary, is not to be trusted, is lazy and has no fucking idea what to do next other than bluster and pretend that if he shouts at Jonny Foreigner they will do what they are told.
And like Trump, he might survive a full term despite all the odds. But the circumstances are much worse for Boris than they are for Trump. May's style meant she could navigate the icebergs one after the other. Boris's style means he's going to hit the first one he encounters. I'm still expecting that we'll have a general election this year. In the end what might save Boris are the people. If anyone has the charisma to pull off an unlikely election victory, it's him, and the current political realignment may turn out to be a much bigger problem for Corbyn than for Boris.
Brexit party support could well be stickiest in former coalfields if the Tories manage to pull it back...
> @ralphmalph said: > > @Scott_P said: > > We will be able to tell a great deal by who he surrounds himself with in Government. > > > > Senior cabinet post for this guy... > > > I know you are being humorous, but I always have a wry smile when I see Mark Francois. Call me Dave made him Europe Minister.
Shadow Europe Minister. He was snubbed in favour of David Lidington when it came to the real job.
God Almighty! Why does anyone think he is fit to be PM beats me. He was a failure as Foreign Secretary, is not to be trusted, is lazy and has no fucking idea what to do next other than bluster and pretend that if he shouts at Jonny Foreigner they will do what they are told.
The indecent Conservatives need somebody charismatic to "fail and blame" the EU, and the decent Conservatives will place unity and loyalty to the tribe above good governance. Unfortunately, Boris ticks a lot of boxes and has the Bannonite imprimatur, so is well funded. I remind you of my conspiracy theory about this.
Boris winning support across the board, only candidate with No Deal, Eurosceptic, hard Brexit, Government Loyalist, soft Brexit and EUref2 MPs backing him
Just ditch the membership vote as Bozo looks like a shoe in.
Let’s quickly get to the final chapter of the SS Brexit hitting the iceberg . Sadly we won’t be able to laugh and deride the USA for voting in Trump anymore .
The next UK PM will be just another serial liar and charlatan . The UKs descent from outward looking respected nation to global laughing stock will be complete .
If Scotland has any sense they should get out quickly and not be dragged into the same cesspit as the rest of the UK.
> @HYUFD said: > > @rottenborough said: > > Nice graphics. > > > > If only this wasn't a horse race, but one of the most important political events in our lifetimes... > > > > https://twitter.com/326Pols/status/1135622318171066374 > > Boris winning support across the board, only candidate with No Deal, hard Brexit, Government Loyalist, soft Brexit and EUref2 MPs backing him >
=================== Lending credence to the idea they hope he can win a GE more than they think his ideas on Brexit are any good, since there's no way they all support his plans, such as they are.
> @HYUFD said: > > @rottenborough said: > > Nice graphics. > > > > If only this wasn't a horse race, but one of the most important political events in our lifetimes... > > > > https://twitter.com/326Pols/status/1135622318171066374 > > Boris winning support across the board, only candidate with No Deal, hard Brexit, Government Loyalist, soft Brexit and EUref2 MPs backing him >
It's not clear yet if it'll be Hunt or Gove facing off against Boris in the final.
Looks at the moment that Raab will struggle to get there.
And of that list of numpties only one is out talking to people.
Boris is spending money on professional videos and making himself seem inevitable like Brown.
Raab is utterly repellent: there is something really quite sinister and dishonest about him.
Sajid Javid is just hopeless; Hancock - nice boy, would be polite to your Mum and likes horses but does not have a clue what to do.
Malthouse, Harper, Cleverly, Gmiyah: who?
McVey: no, just no.
Leadsom: overrated.
Stewart: his plan is too late given where we are and what his party is now like. He's interesting and thoughtful but probably in the wrong party. Maybe next time.
No-one has any idea how to sort Brexit in the time available. And with rare exceptions they seem to care more about themselves or their party than the country or the people in it.
Honestly, what is the point of politics at the moment? They're all intent on driving us down a cul de sac leading to a cliff.
> @nico67 said: > Just ditch the membership vote as Bozo looks like a shoe in. > > Let’s quickly get to the final chapter of the SS Brexit hitting the iceberg . Sadly we won’t be able to laugh and deride the USA for voting in Trump anymore . > > The next UK PM will be just another serial liar and charlatan . The UKs descent from outward looking respected nation to global laughing stock will be complete . > > If Scotland has any sense they should get out quickly and not be dragged into the same cesspit as the rest of the UK. ------------------------------------------- Give the laughing stock thing a rest would you? People are obsessed with being embarrassed as a nation, which funnily enough is itself just embarrassing. If people think a nation is a laughing stock purely because of its leader or temporary politics well first of all that does not speak well of them, and for another will quickly pass when things change in future so while no one wants to be laughed at, it should not be so concerning that people cry great big crocodile tears about it constantly. Why not threaten to emigrate if Boris is PM while you're at it, it's part of the usual blather people pull with such embarrassment talk, whether it's about Tories or Corbyn or whoever.
> Boris winning support across the board, only candidate with No Deal, hard Brexit, Government Loyalist, soft Brexit and EUref2 MPs backing him
>
===================
Lending credence to the idea they hope he can win a GE more than they think his ideas on Brexit are any good, since there's no way they all support his plans, such as they are.
Someone in Tory party apparently said they would eventually call for Boris just as you would for the lifeboats in a storm.
Looks like that is what is happening. Only Boris can win the GE, whenever.
Of course, Boris is massaging the announcements to make one think that is what the Tory MPs are thinking.
> @viewcode said: > God Almighty! Why does anyone think he is fit to be PM beats me. He was a failure as Foreign Secretary, is not to be trusted, is lazy and has no fucking idea what to do next other than bluster and pretend that if he shouts at Jonny Foreigner they will do what they are told. > > The indecent Conservatives need somebody charismatic to "fail and blame" the EU, and the decent Conservatives will place unity and loyalty to the tribe above good governance. Unfortunately, Boris ticks a lot of boxes and has the Bannonite imprimatur, so is well funded. I remind you of my conspiracy theory about this.
Remind me of your conspiracy theory.
If you place unity and loyalty to the tribe above good governance, you cannot by definition - to me anyway - be a decent Conservative.
> @Cyclefree said: > > @rottenborough said: > > Nice graphics. > > > > If only this wasn't a horse race, but one of the most important political events in our lifetimes... > > > > https://twitter.com/326Pols/status/1135622318171066374 > > And of that list of numpties only one is out talking to people. > > Boris is spending money on professional videos and making himself seem inevitable like Brown. > > Raab is utterly repellent: there is something really quite sinister and dishonest about him. > > Sajid Javid is just hopeless; Hancock - nice boy, would be polite to your Mum and likes horses but does not have a clue what to do. > > Malthouse, Harper, Cleverly, Gmiyah: who? > > McVey: no, just no. > > Leadsom: overrated. > > Stewart: his plan is too late given where we are and what his party is now like. He's interesting and thoughtful but probably in the wrong party. Maybe next time. > > No-one has any idea how to sort Brexit in the time available. And with rare exceptions they seem to care more about themselves or their party than the country or the people in it. > > Honestly, what is the point of politics at the moment? They're all intent on driving us down a cul de sac leading to a cliff. >
------------------------------------- You forgot Hunt. Which says it all.
As for politics, serious stuff is on hold for a couple of months. Perhaps we will even see Lab join the hunt for a new leader if BXP win Peterborough, which they might as well since the summer will be taken up with Tory and LD leadership contests, and bugger all actual progress.
We're literally wasting another 2 months, avoiding doing anything about Brexit while we talk about what we would all like to do if only things would happen as we want, which they won't.
It's almost artistic in how much it embodies the concept of futility.
> @SandyRentool said: > Banquet just sitting down at close to 9 o'clock. Sod that - I'd have been down the chippy 2 hours ago.
As Prince Charles is escorting FLOTUS, I hope the Duke of Edinburgh is OK. I know he's retired from public life but he might have enjoyed this dinner. Nobody would be looking out for him to make a gaffe.
Comments
> A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes.
>
> It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs.
>
> I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role.
>
>
> Ah, I see. Of course. The MPs choose two candidates to put to the electorate, the electorate votes in their chosen leader - and the MPs refuse to go along with a decision they consider wrong.
>
> That sounds familiar.
>
> Good evening, everyone.
>
> The electorate in this case being the Tory membership heavily infiltrated by Kippers. It is not the general public.
>
> It is a democratic outrage that this elderly right-wing group can select our PM and determine the future of the UK for generations. Luckily our democracy has the answer. MPs can tell them to take a running jump.
Remind me who voted for Brown to take over from Blair? Not even the MPs
All this talk of democratic outrage is a load of nonsense. We are a Parliamentary democracy - we don't directly elect our PM. And the number of times that PMs have changed mid-Parliament are so numerous as to be part of our system.
> Mr. kinabalu, did Corbyn attend a protest against Xi Jinping?
>
> Edited extra bits: and it's weird how he's happy to meet with 'our friends' in Hamas and Hezbollah but Donald Trump* is beyond the pale.
>
> *Trump is an arse. But he hasn't thrown any political rivals from rooftops (or gay people likewise).
The 'added extra bits' did not help.
Please develop 'Trump is an arse'.
You show a modicum of promise with that.
> > @kinabalu said:
> > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > > @kinabalu said:
> > >
> > > Corbyn is as obnoxious to many as Trump is to others.
> > >
> > > Both totally unsuitable for office
> >
> > I could say the same about (say) Boris Johnson.
> >
> > But it ought to be possible to retain a sense of outrage about Trump without getting sidetracked into the minutae of our domestic politics.
> >
> > All that's required to do so is some semblance of a moral compass.
>
> Corbyn is not a minutae of domestic politics. He is as obnoxious as Trump
>
> We would all be safer if both of them would disappear from public office
Boris is just as malign a human being as Trump.
> > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > @justin124 said:
> > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > > > @justin124 said:
> > > > > > @Barnesian said:
> > > > > > > @Pulpstar said:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @eek said:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > @malcolmg said:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Assuming that Boris becomes leader, if sufficient Tory MPs resign the Whip to reduce their number to 308 , there must be a good chance that a VNOC will pass.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hard to see many vacating the trough unless at gunpoint
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It would only take 5 MPs. Granted it's still unlikely but it's not impossible.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are more than 5 arch-Remainers on the Tory benches.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > And more than 5 ultra-Brexiteers obviously too. There is also the DUP who will try and bring down the Gov't if May's deal somehow gets through (She might be politically dead but her deal could yet be resurrected)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tory MPs don't want a general election, but presumably they'd prefer one to Corbyn being offered the chance to form a minority government in the event of a VONC.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role.
> > > > >
> > > > > Labour MPs who failed to obey the Whip on a VNOC would lose the Whip and be deselected.
> > > >
> > > > And you think they would care. Wear it as a badge of honour and defect to Lib Dems or Greens
> > >
> > > I suspect they would have some awareness of the likelihood of being re-elected under those labels in a general election.
> >
> > I very much doubt it. I expect they would want to be with the winners
>
> They would not be so naive as to place much trust in EU election results - particularly when polls already have the LibDems down at 16%.
You had better believe it. Both main parties are seriously under threat and in labours case from the lib dems but also a surging green movement, not only here but throughout Europe
> > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > @kinabalu said:
> > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > > > @kinabalu said:
> > > >
> > > > Corbyn is as obnoxious to many as Trump is to others.
> > > >
> > > > Both totally unsuitable for office
> > >
> > > I could say the same about (say) Boris Johnson.
> > >
> > > But it ought to be possible to retain a sense of outrage about Trump without getting sidetracked into the minutae of our domestic politics.
> > >
> > > All that's required to do so is some semblance of a moral compass.
> >
> > Corbyn is not a minutae of domestic politics. He is as obnoxious as Trump
> >
> > We would all be safer if both of them would disappear from public office
>
> Boris is just as malign a human being as Trump.
He is not as bad as Corbyn and I am not one of his fans
> > @Barnesian said:
> > > @justin124 said:
> > > > @Barnesian said:
> > > > > @Pulpstar said:
> > > >
> > > > > > @eek said:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > @malcolmg said:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > Assuming that Boris becomes leader, if sufficient Tory MPs resign the Whip to reduce their number to 308 , there must be a good chance that a VNOC will pass.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hard to see many vacating the trough unless at gunpoint
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > It would only take 5 MPs. Granted it's still unlikely but it's not impossible.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > There are more than 5 arch-Remainers on the Tory benches.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > And more than 5 ultra-Brexiteers obviously too. There is also the DUP who will try and bring down the Gov't if May's deal somehow gets through (She might be politically dead but her deal could yet be resurrected)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tory MPs don't want a general election, but presumably they'd prefer one to Corbyn being offered the chance to form a minority government in the event of a VONC.
> > > >
> > > > A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes.
> > > >
> > > > It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs.
> > > >
> > > > I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role.
> > >
> > > Labour MPs who failed to obey the Whip on a VNOC would lose the Whip and be deselected.
> > **********************************************************************
> >
> > Not if it was the majority of the Labour party! If Corbyn whipped his MPs for a VONC for a GE which implied a crash out because there wouldn't be time to revoke or ask for an extension, he would have a major revolt. Normal rules wouldn't apply.
>
> Remainer Con MPs need to accept that if we do not leave the EU then the Tory party is finished.
True.
But I think the Tory party is also finished if they take us out of the EU without a deal.
It's a problem for the Tory MPs, as they also can't bring themselves to vote for a deal.
'All this screams at the Tory hard-liners from the rooftops that if they want Brexit, they should resuscitate May’s deal and fast. Britain’s departure from the EU was a democratic choice. The manner of its departure was left to parliament, where it is now at the mercy of Tory oligarchs who have apparently lost their sanity. Grownups know that soft Brexit is the only realistic way forward. Increasingly it looks like that, or remain.'
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/03/tory-leadership-oligarchy-brexit-boris-johnson
I wonder if the idea will gain currency as the failings of No Deal become more and more horribly exposed. Perhaps Rory is a prophet whose time is still to come.
Or split into two parties if a large minority can't follow the leader who is chosen.
I'd like to tell the lot, all sides, to take a running jump. A GE where no present or past MP is allowed to stand.
> A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes.
>
> It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs.
>
> I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role.
>
>
> Ah, I see. Of course. The MPs choose two candidates to put to the electorate, the electorate votes in their chosen leader - and the MPs refuse to go along with a decision they consider wrong.
>
> That sounds familiar.
>
> Good evening, everyone.
>
> The electorate in this case being the Tory membership heavily infiltrated by Kippers. It is not the general public.
>
> It is a democratic outrage that this elderly right-wing group can select our PM and determine the future of the UK for generations. Luckily our democracy has the answer. MPs can tell them to take a running jump.
>
> In fairness, democracy at all stages has an answer. Whether or not it's one people like is another matter, fwiw right now I think the forces of remain would have an advantage in a straight referendum but the forces of leave are favoured in a FPTP election.
Exactly, just 5% more than the 45% for Yes in 2014 for the SNP in 2015 produced a landslide for the nationalists under FPTP where they won all but 3 seats in Scotland
The problem we have is letting party members chose leaders and therefore PMs because party members are often more extreme than general supporters. I think it is OK for party members to choose the LOTO but the PM has massive executive power and must have the confidence of Parliament as a whole. Otherwise it is ripe for a political coup. Anyway, those are the rules. VONC.
> > @justin124 said:
> > > @Barnesian said:
> > > > @Pulpstar said:
> > >
> > > > > @eek said:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > > > @malcolmg said:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > > > Assuming that Boris becomes leader, if sufficient Tory MPs resign the Whip to reduce their number to 308 , there must be a good chance that a VNOC will pass.
> > >
> > >
> > > Hard to see many vacating the trough unless at gunpoint
> > >
> > >
> > > > > It would only take 5 MPs. Granted it's still unlikely but it's not impossible.
> > >
> > >
> > > > There are more than 5 arch-Remainers on the Tory benches.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > And more than 5 ultra-Brexiteers obviously too. There is also the DUP who will try and bring down the Gov't if May's deal somehow gets through (She might be politically dead but her deal could yet be resurrected)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tory MPs don't want a general election, but presumably they'd prefer one to Corbyn being offered the chance to form a minority government in the event of a VONC.
> > >
> > > A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes.
> > >
> > > It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs.
> > >
> > > I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role.
> >
> > Labour MPs who failed to obey the Whip on a VNOC would lose the Whip and be deselected.
> **********************************************************************
>
> Not if it was the majority of the Labour party! If Corbyn whipped his MPs for a VONC for a GE which implied a crash out because there wouldn't be time to revoke or ask for an extension, he would have a major revolt. Normal rules wouldn't apply.
Any Labour MP who supported the Tories on a VNOC - or indeed abstained - would be deselected. Absolutely no doubt about that. Ditto for Tory MPs who supported such a motion.
> > @Barnesian said:
> > > @justin124 said:
> > > > @Barnesian said:
> > > > > @Pulpstar said:
> > > >
> > > > > > @eek said:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > @malcolmg said:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > Assuming that Boris becomes leader, if sufficient Tory MPs resign the Whip to reduce their number to 308 , there must be a good chance that a VNOC will pass.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hard to see many vacating the trough unless at gunpoint
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > It would only take 5 MPs. Granted it's still unlikely but it's not impossible.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > There are more than 5 arch-Remainers on the Tory benches.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > And more than 5 ultra-Brexiteers obviously too. There is also the DUP who will try and bring down the Gov't if May's deal somehow gets through (She might be politically dead but her deal could yet be resurrected)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tory MPs don't want a general election, but presumably they'd prefer one to Corbyn being offered the chance to form a minority government in the event of a VONC.
> > > >
> > > > A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes.
> > > >
> > > > It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs.
> > > >
> > > > I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role.
> > >
> > > Labour MPs who failed to obey the Whip on a VNOC would lose the Whip and be deselected.
> > **********************************************************************
> >
> > Not if it was the majority of the Labour party! If Corbyn whipped his MPs for a VONC for a GE which implied a crash out because there wouldn't be time to revoke or ask for an extension, he would have a major revolt. Normal rules wouldn't apply.
>
> Any Labour MP who supported the Tories on a VNOC - or indeed abstained - would be deselected. Absolutely no doubt about that. Ditto for Tory MPs who supported such a motion.
So a majority of labour mps in those circumstances would be deselected leaving a labour party facing collapse
> Hmm. Sir Simon seems to think that Theresa's deal is not dead:
>
> 'All this screams at the Tory hard-liners from the rooftops that if they want Brexit, they should resuscitate May’s deal and fast. Britain’s departure from the EU was a democratic choice. The manner of its departure was left to parliament, where it is now at the mercy of Tory oligarchs who have apparently lost their sanity. Grownups know that soft Brexit is the only realistic way forward. Increasingly it looks like that, or remain.'
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/03/tory-leadership-oligarchy-brexit-boris-johnson
>
> I wonder if the idea will gain currency as the failings of No Deal become more and more horribly exposed. Perhaps Rory is a prophet whose time is still to come.
Sir Simon in that article actually calls May's Deal 'soft Brexit'
> > @justin124 said:
> > > @Barnesian said:
> > > > @justin124 said:
> > > > > @Barnesian said:
> > > > > > @Pulpstar said:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > @eek said:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > @malcolmg said:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > Assuming that Boris becomes leader, if sufficient Tory MPs resign the Whip to reduce their number to 308 , there must be a good chance that a VNOC will pass.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hard to see many vacating the trough unless at gunpoint
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > It would only take 5 MPs. Granted it's still unlikely but it's not impossible.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > There are more than 5 arch-Remainers on the Tory benches.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > And more than 5 ultra-Brexiteers obviously too. There is also the DUP who will try and bring down the Gov't if May's deal somehow gets through (She might be politically dead but her deal could yet be resurrected)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Tory MPs don't want a general election, but presumably they'd prefer one to Corbyn being offered the chance to form a minority government in the event of a VONC.
> > > > >
> > > > > A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes.
> > > > >
> > > > > It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role.
> > > >
> > > > Labour MPs who failed to obey the Whip on a VNOC would lose the Whip and be deselected.
> > > **********************************************************************
> > >
> > > Not if it was the majority of the Labour party! If Corbyn whipped his MPs for a VONC for a GE which implied a crash out because there wouldn't be time to revoke or ask for an extension, he would have a major revolt. Normal rules wouldn't apply.
> >
> > Any Labour MP who supported the Tories on a VNOC - or indeed abstained - would be deselected. Absolutely no doubt about that. Ditto for Tory MPs who supported such a motion.
>
> So a majority of labour mps in those circumstances would be deselected leaving a labour party facing collapse
There would be new candidates selected to replace them in such a scenario. But it is pure fantasy to believe that Labour MPs would behave in that way.
> > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > @justin124 said:
> > > > @Barnesian said:
> > > > > @justin124 said:
> > > > > > @Barnesian said:
> > > > > > > @Pulpstar said:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @eek said:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > @malcolmg said:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Assuming that Boris becomes leader, if sufficient Tory MPs resign the Whip to reduce their number to 308 , there must be a good chance that a VNOC will pass.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hard to see many vacating the trough unless at gunpoint
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It would only take 5 MPs. Granted it's still unlikely but it's not impossible.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are more than 5 arch-Remainers on the Tory benches.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > And more than 5 ultra-Brexiteers obviously too. There is also the DUP who will try and bring down the Gov't if May's deal somehow gets through (She might be politically dead but her deal could yet be resurrected)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tory MPs don't want a general election, but presumably they'd prefer one to Corbyn being offered the chance to form a minority government in the event of a VONC.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A VONC would not lead to a Corbyn minority government. He doesn't have the votes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It would lead to a Remainer Tory agreeing to ask the EU for an extension to avoid crashing out. In that scenario, I think such a person would get a vote of confidence from the many Remainers and opponents of no deal. Corbyn might whip for another VONC thereby risking a crash out but I think he would be ignored by many Labour MPs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think that person will be Gove. Next PM after Johnson who will get 24 hours in the role.
> > > > >
> > > > > Labour MPs who failed to obey the Whip on a VNOC would lose the Whip and be deselected.
> > > > **********************************************************************
> > > >
> > > > Not if it was the majority of the Labour party! If Corbyn whipped his MPs for a VONC for a GE which implied a crash out because there wouldn't be time to revoke or ask for an extension, he would have a major revolt. Normal rules wouldn't apply.
> > >
> > > Any Labour MP who supported the Tories on a VNOC - or indeed abstained - would be deselected. Absolutely no doubt about that. Ditto for Tory MPs who supported such a motion.
> >
> > So a majority of labour mps in those circumstances would be deselected leaving a labour party facing collapse
>
> There would be new candidates selected to replace them in such a scenario. But it is pure fantasy to believe that Labour MPs would behave in that way.
Nothing is fantasy in these crazy days
> > @Stereotomy said:
> > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> >
> > Is that what you'll have on your placard at the trump protest, under the picture of Maduro?
>
> Not me - I wont be at the protest
I don't condemn you one iota for that. Trafalgar Square is a long way from Wales. Usual London centric crap when it comes to political protests.
> > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > @kinabalu said:
> >
> > Corbyn is as obnoxious to many as Trump is to others.
> >
> > Both totally unsuitable for office
>
> I could say the same about (say) Boris Johnson.
>
> But it ought to be possible to retain a sense of outrage about Trump without getting sidetracked into the minutae of our domestic politics.
>
> All that's required to do so is some semblance of a moral compass.
I think Big G has said the same about Boris, but perhaps not so much recently.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/top-schools-add-nothing-to-grades-says-geneticist-bmz8vpn5x?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3c1hTftOO6hqbh-aWWadKZ2PowqK5SvOmdOUZoJ4vdrSlW2h1y4Xz8rL8#Echobox=1559545348
That is a direct quote from down the thread.
I make an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with such cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship.
> Does anyone have any feedback on what the LDs are doing in Peterborough?
>
> I think they have all gone to B&R where the operation is up and running
Are they confident of getting the 10% signatures bearing in mind it is the biggest constituency outside of Scotland and therefore a bit of an ask?
> Does anyone have any feedback on what the LDs are doing in Peterborough?
>
> I think they have all gone to B&R where the operation is up and running
Given the Brexit Party won Powys with 35% of the vote in the European elections and the LDs were only second on 24% if the LDs do succeed in their petition it may not produce quite the outcome they intend, especially if Farage's Party gain momentum by winning Peterborough on Thursday
> "Corbyn is as obnoxious as Trump".
>
> That is a direct quote from down the thread.
>
> I make an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with such cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship.
I'd take Trump over Corbyn any day. Call it Tory bigotry if you will, but I have thought long and hard about antisemitism and have decided that I am opposed to it.
> Does anyone have any feedback on what the LDs are doing in Peterborough?
>
> Winning here?
Not winning there?
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1135602452059906050?s=20
>
> It should never have been a state visit, he has done nothing to deserve the honor and is taking the piss but if he come just for the D Day celebrations then to oppose the elected representative of the US would have been wrong. He is milking the pageantry for his own political ends and we should not be part of it.
+1
Or more exuberantly and suitably - BANG.
Forget Brexit, this is a national humiliation of the first order.
If you don't feel it you are not a patriot in any real sense of the word.
Unless it isn't. It would have been before the 1922 started making noises about the need to rush through the process in case the new PM loses a confidence vote that no-one expects to be called. Something is up. I don't know what is up but suddenly I am nervous.
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
> > @nichomar said:
> > Does anyone have any feedback on what the LDs are doing in Peterborough?
> >
> > I think they have all gone to B&R where the operation is up and running
>
> Are they confident of getting the 10% signatures bearing in mind it is the biggest constituency outside of Scotland and therefore a bit of an ask?
Most of the voters live within reach of the six locations so I don't think it's much of an obstacle. I'm not sure whether local people are up in arms over Chris Davies's behaviour, but I expect he has enough opponents for the petition to succeed.
If it weren't for the Brexit Party, I'd expect the B&R by-election to be close; maybe even a Tory hold. I suspect that the intervention of the Brexit Party will make it easier for the LDs.
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135625265126789122
> > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > @Stereotomy said:
> > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > >
> > > Is that what you'll have on your placard at the trump protest, under the picture of Maduro?
> >
> > Not me - I wont be at the protest
>
> I don't condemn you one iota for that. Trafalgar Square is a long way from Wales. Usual London centric crap when it comes to political protests.
The only protest I would join would be against Corbyn if he was ever elected
> Apologies if you guys already did this to death, but shit the updated Electoral Calculus prediction is slightly different from the previous one!
>
> https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
Wouldn't that be fun
The Brexit press is starting to reverse ferret on American trade deals. It has suddenly dawned on them that in a forced choice between EU rules and American rules, the EU ones are a lot less scary.
Here are two articles from the Telegraph alone:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/03/maths-trade-deal-trump-do-not-add/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/03/stop-trying-meddle-affairs-mr-johnson-nhs-not-sale/
> "Corbyn is as obnoxious as Trump".
>
>
>
> That is a direct quote from down the thread.
>
>
>
> I make an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with such cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship.
>
> Yes, Corbyn is much more obnoxious than Trump.
But I was making an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship.
Why are you wilfully ignoring that?
> > @MaxPB said:
> > "Corbyn is as obnoxious as Trump".
> >
> >
> >
> > That is a direct quote from down the thread.
> >
> >
> >
> > I make an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with such cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship.
> >
> > Yes, Corbyn is much more obnoxious than Trump.
>
> But I was making an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship.
>
> Why are you wilfully ignoring that?
Because it is so much pompous arsehattery, at a guess.
> > @kinabalu said:
> > > @MaxPB said:
> > > "Corbyn is as obnoxious as Trump".
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > That is a direct quote from down the thread.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I make an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with such cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship.
> > >
> > > Yes, Corbyn is much more obnoxious than Trump.
> >
> > But I was making an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship.
> >
> > Why are you wilfully ignoring that?
> Because it is so much pompous arsehattery, at a guess.
+1
> https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1135602449987899395
>
>
>
>
>
> https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1135602452059906050
>
>
>
> There was nobody there to greet him the Mall was empty.
The Secret Service have special digital window displays in The Beast that play culturally specific cheering crowds, they find it makes life much easier. They can adjust the number of black and brown faces, depending on the Don's mood.
250 Brexit MPs facing down the weakest Labour Gov't since Ramsey McDonald. Absolubte scenes.
> https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1135589556525424640?s=20
Let's hope he doesn't get eliminated at the first round.
> Rory Stewart doing a John Major in Hyde Park. I doubt he’ll get anywhere but he is one of the few who is bothering to engage with the voters for real - not in expensively produced videos. He deserves considerable credit for that.
I have met Rory Stewart several times and have always admired him.
My faith was however slightly shaken when I listened to this weekend's interview with James Kirkup, in which he proposed a citizens' assembly as the solution to Brexit, without any indication as to how this would bind parliament.
I would appreciate your view (the Brexit bit starts at around 13 minutes in)...
https://audioboom.com/posts/7276969-rory-stewart-i-can-solve-brexit-in-five-weeks
> > @kinabalu said:
> > "Corbyn is as obnoxious as Trump".
> >
> > That is a direct quote from down the thread.
> >
> > I make an impassioned appeal for language not to be treated with such cavalier disdain in the furtherance of Conservative partisanship.
>
> I'd take Trump over Corbyn any day. Call it Tory bigotry if you will, but I have thought long and hard about antisemitism and have decided that I am opposed to it.
I sense very strongly that you are far from being a bigot - Tory or otherwise.
Would question your judgement however. If Trump thought antisemitism would play for him he would be blasting it in Dolby soundaround.
Please do not shruggify this ghastly ghastly individual.
That he has become the American President is shocking. SHOCKING.
Let's stay shocked. If we don't, we enable.
> https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135624986289459201
>
>
>
> https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135625265126789122
In practice 80 MPs would probably be enough to get into the last two.
As I had no takers before, what odds am I offered on a charity wager (loser to pay a charity of the winners choice) that the Official Monster Raving Loonys will beat the Conservatives on Thursday.
Come on, this is a betting site, not a moaning one!
> > @kjh said:
> > > @nichomar said:
> > > Does anyone have any feedback on what the LDs are doing in Peterborough?
> > >
> > > I think they have all gone to B&R where the operation is up and running
> >
> > Are they confident of getting the 10% signatures bearing in mind it is the biggest constituency outside of Scotland and therefore a bit of an ask?
>
> Most of the voters live within reach of the six locations so I don't think it's much of an obstacle. I'm not sure whether local people are up in arms over Chris Davies's behaviour, but I expect he has enough opponents for the petition to succeed.
>
> If it weren't for the Brexit Party, I'd expect the B&R by-election to be close; maybe even a Tory hold. I suspect that the intervention of the Brexit Party will make it easier for the LDs.
On the European elections results the Brexit Party would actually win Brecon and Radnor
> > @Scott_P said:
> > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135624986289459201
> >
> >
> >
> > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135625265126789122
>
> In practice 80 MPs would probably be enough to get into the last two.
It does seem quite likely he has enough to get through. Welcome to our next PM I guess. Either he will stun me and actually acheive major things, or he could be the shortest serving PM in history, or near enough.
> > @Scott_P said:
> > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135624986289459201
> >
> >
> >
> > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135625265126789122
>
> In practice 80 MPs would probably be enough to get into the last two.
I'm afraid I simply don't believe Paul Waugh's source. If 'twere so, Boris would be 1.3. This is an attempt to manufacture momentum and an aura of inevitability, and so wish the 80 MPs into existence. It might work.
> https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1135602449987899395?s=20
>
> https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1135602452059906050?s=20
There were a few curious parties and Trump supporters and protestors outside Buckingham Palace as Trump's motorcade went in but the Mall was cleared
> > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > > @Scott_P said:
> > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135624986289459201
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135625265126789122
> >
> > In practice 80 MPs would probably be enough to get into the last two.
>
> It does seem quite likely he has enough to get through. Welcome to our next PM I guess. Either he will stun me and actually acheive major things, or he could be the shortest serving PM in history, or near enough.
God Almighty! Why does anyone think he is fit to be PM beats me. He was a failure as Foreign Secretary, is not to be trusted, is lazy and has no fucking idea what to do next other than bluster and pretend that if he shouts at Jonny Foreigner they will do what they are told.
> > @kle4 said:
> > > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > > > @Scott_P said:
> > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135624986289459201
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135625265126789122
> > >
> > > In practice 80 MPs would probably be enough to get into the last two.
> >
> > It does seem quite likely he has enough to get through. Welcome to our next PM I guess. Either he will stun me and actually acheive major things, or he could be the shortest serving PM in history, or near enough.
>
> God Almighty! Why does anyone think he is fit to be PM beats me. He was a failure as Foreign Secretary, is not to be trusted, is lazy and has no fucking idea what to do next other than bluster and pretend that if he shouts at Jonny Foreigner they will do what they are told.
>
>
---------------------
Unfortunately at least 40 MPs, likely double that, believe the same, or they think he might win a GE and so are ignoring their misgivings. We can only hope he has hidden depths, or we'll be getting PM Corbyn or no deal, or both.
> They should recruit from PB - plenty of fawning Trumptons on here!
Spookily they're often the people who start off posts with 'I don't like Farage, but...'.
https://twitter.com/ABridgen/status/1135626744147402752
> > @kle4 said:
> > > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > > > @Scott_P said:
> > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135624986289459201
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135625265126789122
> > >
> > > In practice 80 MPs would probably be enough to get into the last two.
> >
> > It does seem quite likely he has enough to get through. Welcome to our next PM I guess. Either he will stun me and actually acheive major things, or he could be the shortest serving PM in history, or near enough.
>
> God Almighty! Why does anyone think he is fit to be PM beats me. He was a failure as Foreign Secretary, is not to be trusted, is lazy and has no fucking idea what to do next other than bluster and pretend that if he shouts at Jonny Foreigner they will do what they are told.
And like Trump, he might survive a full term despite all the odds. But the circumstances are much worse for Boris than they are for Trump. May's style meant she could navigate the icebergs one after the other. Boris's style means he's going to hit the first one he encounters. I'm still expecting that we'll have a general election this year. In the end what might save Boris are the people. If anyone has the charisma to pull off an unlikely election victory, it's him, and the current political realignment may turn out to be a much bigger problem for Corbyn than for Boris.
> > @Cyclefree said:
> > > @kle4 said:
> > > > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > > > > @Scott_P said:
> > > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135624986289459201
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135625265126789122
> > > >
> > > > In practice 80 MPs would probably be enough to get into the last two.
> > >
> > > It does seem quite likely he has enough to get through. Welcome to our next PM I guess. Either he will stun me and actually acheive major things, or he could be the shortest serving PM in history, or near enough.
> >
> > God Almighty! Why does anyone think he is fit to be PM beats me. He was a failure as Foreign Secretary, is not to be trusted, is lazy and has no fucking idea what to do next other than bluster and pretend that if he shouts at Jonny Foreigner they will do what they are told.
>
> And like Trump, he might survive a full term despite all the odds. But the circumstances are much worse for Boris than they are for Trump. May's style meant she could navigate the icebergs one after the other. Boris's style means he's going to hit the first one he encounters. I'm still expecting that we'll have a general election this year. In the end what might save Boris are the people. If anyone has the charisma to pull off an unlikely election victory, it's him, and the current political realignment may turn out to be a much bigger problem for Corbyn than for Boris.
who is briefing this stuff?
> > @kle4 said:
> > > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > > > @Scott_P said:
> > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135624986289459201
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1135625265126789122
> > >
> > > In practice 80 MPs would probably be enough to get into the last two.
> >
> > It does seem quite likely he has enough to get through. Welcome to our next PM I guess. Either he will stun me and actually acheive major things, or he could be the shortest serving PM in history, or near enough.
>
> God Almighty! Why does anyone think he is fit to be PM beats me. He was a failure as Foreign Secretary, is not to be trusted, is lazy and has no fucking idea what to do next other than bluster and pretend that if he shouts at Jonny Foreigner they will do what they are told.
>
>
He is such a malign human being. We know full well that there is no way that the PLP would have put Corbyn on the ballot had it been presented with the same hurdle availble now to Tory MPs. That so many are prepared to hand power to such a man really does speak volumes for the lack of any sense of moral decency at the core of their party.
> We will be able to tell a great deal by who he surrounds himself with in Government.
>
> Senior cabinet post for this guy...
>
> https://twitter.com/ABridgen/status/1135626744147402752
shoot me now
> We will be able to tell a great deal by who he surrounds himself with in Government.
>
> Senior cabinet post for this guy...
>
> https://twitter.com/ABridgen/status/1135626744147402752
I know you are being humorous, but I always have a wry smile when I see Mark Francois. Call me Dave made him Europe Minister.
If only this wasn't a horse race, but one of the most important political events in our lifetimes...
https://twitter.com/326Pols/status/1135622318171066374
> > @Scott_P said:
> > We will be able to tell a great deal by who he surrounds himself with in Government.
> >
> > Senior cabinet post for this guy...
>
>
> I know you are being humorous, but I always have a wry smile when I see Mark Francois. Call me Dave made him Europe Minister.
Shadow Europe Minister. He was snubbed in favour of David Lidington when it came to the real job.
Twitter would break.
> Banquet just sitting down at close to 9 o'clock. Sod that - I'd have been down the chippy 2 hours ago.
Wasn't he scheduled to have a high tea at 4 or something.
Who knows, by the end of the banquet, ER might try and pull the 'one more waffer, Mr. Trump' gambit.
> Nice graphics.
>
> If only this wasn't a horse race, but one of the most important political events in our lifetimes...
>
> https://twitter.com/326Pols/status/1135622318171066374
Boris winning support across the board, only candidate with No Deal, Eurosceptic, hard Brexit, Government Loyalist, soft Brexit and EUref2 MPs backing him
Let’s quickly get to the final chapter of the SS Brexit hitting the iceberg . Sadly we won’t be able to laugh and deride the USA for voting in Trump anymore .
The next UK PM will be just another serial liar and charlatan . The UKs descent from outward looking respected nation to global laughing stock will be complete .
If Scotland has any sense they should get out quickly and not be dragged into the same cesspit as the rest of the UK.
> > @rottenborough said:
> > Nice graphics.
> >
> > If only this wasn't a horse race, but one of the most important political events in our lifetimes...
> >
> > https://twitter.com/326Pols/status/1135622318171066374
>
> Boris winning support across the board, only candidate with No Deal, hard Brexit, Government Loyalist, soft Brexit and EUref2 MPs backing him
>
===================
Lending credence to the idea they hope he can win a GE more than they think his ideas on Brexit are any good, since there's no way they all support his plans, such as they are.
> > @rottenborough said:
> > Nice graphics.
> >
> > If only this wasn't a horse race, but one of the most important political events in our lifetimes...
> >
> > https://twitter.com/326Pols/status/1135622318171066374
>
> Boris winning support across the board, only candidate with No Deal, hard Brexit, Government Loyalist, soft Brexit and EUref2 MPs backing him
>
It's not clear yet if it'll be Hunt or Gove facing off against Boris in the final.
Looks at the moment that Raab will struggle to get there.
> Nice graphics.
>
> If only this wasn't a horse race, but one of the most important political events in our lifetimes...
>
> https://twitter.com/326Pols/status/1135622318171066374
And of that list of numpties only one is out talking to people.
Boris is spending money on professional videos and making himself seem inevitable like Brown.
Raab is utterly repellent: there is something really quite sinister and dishonest about him.
Sajid Javid is just hopeless; Hancock - nice boy, would be polite to your Mum and likes horses but does not have a clue what to do.
Malthouse, Harper, Cleverly, Gmiyah: who?
McVey: no, just no.
Leadsom: overrated.
Stewart: his plan is too late given where we are and what his party is now like. He's interesting and thoughtful but probably in the wrong party. Maybe next time.
No-one has any idea how to sort Brexit in the time available. And with rare exceptions they seem to care more about themselves or their party than the country or the people in it.
Honestly, what is the point of politics at the moment? They're all intent on driving us down a cul de sac leading to a cliff.
> Just ditch the membership vote as Bozo looks like a shoe in.
>
> Let’s quickly get to the final chapter of the SS Brexit hitting the iceberg . Sadly we won’t be able to laugh and deride the USA for voting in Trump anymore .
>
> The next UK PM will be just another serial liar and charlatan . The UKs descent from outward looking respected nation to global laughing stock will be complete .
>
> If Scotland has any sense they should get out quickly and not be dragged into the same cesspit as the rest of the UK.
-------------------------------------------
Give the laughing stock thing a rest would you? People are obsessed with being embarrassed as a nation, which funnily enough is itself just embarrassing. If people think a nation is a laughing stock purely because of its leader or temporary politics well first of all that does not speak well of them, and for another will quickly pass when things change in future so while no one wants to be laughed at, it should not be so concerning that people cry great big crocodile tears about it constantly. Why not threaten to emigrate if Boris is PM while you're at it, it's part of the usual blather people pull with such embarrassment talk, whether it's about Tories or Corbyn or whoever.
Looks like that is what is happening. Only Boris can win the GE, whenever.
Of course, Boris is massaging the announcements to make one think that is what the Tory MPs are thinking.
Can you PLEASE stop taunting me with Trump tweets.
Told you before - you keep doing it and I'm going to retaliate big time with a ton of Owen Jones.
> God Almighty! Why does anyone think he is fit to be PM beats me. He was a failure as Foreign Secretary, is not to be trusted, is lazy and has no fucking idea what to do next other than bluster and pretend that if he shouts at Jonny Foreigner they will do what they are told.
>
> The indecent Conservatives need somebody charismatic to "fail and blame" the EU, and the decent Conservatives will place unity and loyalty to the tribe above good governance. Unfortunately, Boris ticks a lot of boxes and has the Bannonite imprimatur, so is well funded. I remind you of my conspiracy theory about this.
Remind me of your conspiracy theory.
If you place unity and loyalty to the tribe above good governance, you cannot by definition - to me anyway - be a decent Conservative.
> > @rottenborough said:
> > Nice graphics.
> >
> > If only this wasn't a horse race, but one of the most important political events in our lifetimes...
> >
> > https://twitter.com/326Pols/status/1135622318171066374
>
> And of that list of numpties only one is out talking to people.
>
> Boris is spending money on professional videos and making himself seem inevitable like Brown.
>
> Raab is utterly repellent: there is something really quite sinister and dishonest about him.
>
> Sajid Javid is just hopeless; Hancock - nice boy, would be polite to your Mum and likes horses but does not have a clue what to do.
>
> Malthouse, Harper, Cleverly, Gmiyah: who?
>
> McVey: no, just no.
>
> Leadsom: overrated.
>
> Stewart: his plan is too late given where we are and what his party is now like. He's interesting and thoughtful but probably in the wrong party. Maybe next time.
>
> No-one has any idea how to sort Brexit in the time available. And with rare exceptions they seem to care more about themselves or their party than the country or the people in it.
>
> Honestly, what is the point of politics at the moment? They're all intent on driving us down a cul de sac leading to a cliff.
>
-------------------------------------
You forgot Hunt. Which says it all.
As for politics, serious stuff is on hold for a couple of months. Perhaps we will even see Lab join the hunt for a new leader if BXP win Peterborough, which they might as well since the summer will be taken up with Tory and LD leadership contests, and bugger all actual progress.
We're literally wasting another 2 months, avoiding doing anything about Brexit while we talk about what we would all like to do if only things would happen as we want, which they won't.
It's almost artistic in how much it embodies the concept of futility.
> Banquet just sitting down at close to 9 o'clock. Sod that - I'd have been down the chippy 2 hours ago.
As Prince Charles is escorting FLOTUS, I hope the Duke of Edinburgh is OK. I know he's retired from public life but he might have enjoyed this dinner. Nobody would be looking out for him to make a gaffe.