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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Change UK have given a masterclass in how not to launch a political party
To be wrong once is inevitable, to be wrong twice is unfortunate, to be wrong three times is careless, but to be wrong as many times as Change UK have been is to show all the tactical and strategic awareness of a garden leaf trying to outwit a playful cat. It’s not merely that they keep losing the game; it’s not even that they don’t seem to know how the game’s played; it’s as if they don’t even know that there’s a game on at all.
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I wonder whether one of the TIGgers (perhaps Wollaston) will re-rat towards the Lib Dems after the Euros.
Now they're becalmed.
> It's not been fantastic. They did have good early momentum, but since then they've stalled badly. Name, logo, reportedly not wanting more Conservative defectors 'too soon' as if the window of opportunity would be open forever: there's been a lack of urgency, a complacency that the wind in their sails would blow kindly until they reached their destination.
>
> Now they're becalmed.
The need is still there however, and will accelerate when May hands over to an Ergonaut.
I wonder whether one of the reasons for their shambolic and incoherent start was that they felt pressurised into moving before they were really ready as a result of Luciana Berger’s decision to leave Labour before her baby was born.
I suspect also that they expected or were hopeful that other Labour MPs would join them, which would have given them momentum, but that this was stymied by whatever Tom Watson got up to in those initial days. The full story of what happened with his manoeuvrings has yet to be told I’m sure.
I can’t understand the “we”. If a person is old enough to go to University, to vote (moreso in Scotland I think), have children etc they’re old enough to decide without parents.
> From David L on the previous thread: We are having a crazy week in July when we are doing open days in Oxford, LSE and Cambridge on 3 successive days. I can only presume that it is deliberate that they overlap like this so people choose earlier or something.
>
>
> I can’t understand the “we”. If a person is old enough to go to University, to vote (moreso in Scotland I think), have children etc they’re old enough to decide without parents.
There's a mean little point for you. He says "so people can choose early," so where is the suggestion that the parents are involved in making the decision? I am guessing you could only do that lot in the time allowed by car and the senior Ls are helping with the driving. "We" looks pretty innocuous to me.
> From David L on the previous thread: We are having a crazy week in July when we are doing open days in Oxford, LSE and Cambridge on 3 successive days. I can only presume that it is deliberate that they overlap like this so people choose earlier or something.
>
>
> I can’t understand the “we”. If a person is old enough to go to University, to vote (moreso in Scotland I think), have children etc they’re old enough to decide without parents.
There’s a difference between involving your parents and letting them make your decision for you.
It is nice to be involved and consulted provided you always remember that your child needs to make their own decisions. It is also worth remembering that sometimes they make the wrong ones or need advice and help and that you may need to be there to pick up the pieces. Keeping the lines of communication open as far and in a way as your child wants is a good thing.
I said they were all doomed at the start, and nothing I have seen suggests any of them will be MPs after the next election.
I wonder how many of them will even bother fighting their seats.
Chuka is not a man to fight a losing battle in the dirt and mud of the trenches, I wonder if he will even contest Streatham.
I guess these elections will be a good test as to how big an affect such catastrophic balls-up has on voting intention. Always important to remember that we who actually pay much attention to such things are a minority.
It does inadvertently but effectively reveal what the splitters are all about - 'For people like us, not people like you'.
> > @matt said:
> > From David L on the previous thread: We are having a crazy week in July when we are doing open days in Oxford, LSE and Cambridge on 3 successive days. I can only presume that it is deliberate that they overlap like this so people choose earlier or something.
> >
> >
> > I can’t understand the “we”. If a person is old enough to go to University, to vote (moreso in Scotland I think), have children etc they’re old enough to decide without parents.
>
> There's a mean little point for you. He says "so people can choose early," so where is the suggestion that the parents are involved in making the decision? I am guessing you could only do that lot in the time allowed by car and the senior Ls are helping with the driving. "We" looks pretty innocuous to me.
------
They can go to the Open Days on their own, they don't really need their parents hanging around. In many cases, they don't want their parents hanging around either -- much more fun to go to the Open Day with a group of like-minded schoolfriends.
I suspect you can actually get from London, Oxford and Cambridge by train in 3 days, rather easily. It is the South East of England, so there has been absolutely massive investment in transport infrastructure.
It is also probably cheaper than a car, with a Young Person discount.
And many Oxbridge colleges will offer limited accommodation for open days for students travelling long distances.
> Its yet another example of how incompetent our political class is.
The independent network looks interesting on the East Midlands ballot.
> Well said. A good header.
>
> I wonder whether one of the reasons for their shambolic and incoherent start was that they felt pressurised into moving before they were really ready as a result of Luciana Berger’s decision to leave Labour before her baby was born.
>
> I suspect also that they expected or were hopeful that other Labour MPs would join them, which would have given them momentum, but that this was stymied by whatever Tom Watson got up to in those initial days. The full story of what happened with his manoeuvrings has yet to be told I’m sure.
There did seem a point where loads of Labour MP's were about to jump.
As Miss Cyclefree indicated, Watson seemed to stop that. In so doing, he may have simply helped Corbyn.
The only clear break point would seem to be a Con-Lab deal with no referendum. If Corbyn agrees no deal, it's hard to see Labour MPs jumping now.
Edited extra bit: they should, incidentally. Labour's led by a wretch, and there will almost certainly never be another time (within half a century) when the Opposition is so wretched and the Government so incompetent. It's fertile soil for a new crop of politics.
> CUK don't offer anything change related. If you want bollocks to Brexit, far better to vote LD who are at least a real party.
CUK's task this election is to at least not fall behind the Greens, then as is likely by this time next year it will be a choice of Corbyn v Boris or Raab they can position themselves for Remainers who want something more fiscally conservative than the LDs or Greens but who dislike a pro hard Brexit Tory Party and a Corbynista Labour Party
Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> Well said. A good header.
>
> I wonder whether one of the reasons for their shambolic and incoherent start was that they felt pressurised into moving before they were really ready as a result of Luciana Berger’s decision to leave Labour before her baby was born.
>
> I suspect also that they expected or were hopeful that other Labour MPs would join them, which would have given them momentum, but that this was stymied by whatever Tom Watson got up to in those initial days. The full story of what happened with his manoeuvrings has yet to be told I’m sure.
TIG was reported as having over a million pounds at its launch from two ex-Labour donors, so it could not have been that rushed by Luciana's baby. A more obvious explanation is the MPs know damn all about politics and had never appreciated the logistical support given by local and national parties. I doubt Jeremy Corbyn knows who prints Labour posters let alone who books helicopter flights, just that someone takes care of it.
And if Tom Watson stopped future Labour defections by some unknown mechanism, which somehow has not leaked to the press, who is playing the same role on the blue team? Nearly 50 MPs have resigned from the government, three dozen over Brexit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_resignations_from_the_second_May_ministry
Why is TIG/Chuk not recruiting these disaffected Conservative MPs? Perhaps because it is not even trying.
In any case, we can add the failure to exploit government resignations as an eighth point to DH's OP list.
Mike Gapes' seemingly genuine surprise at being removed as a Labour member of a select committee might be a ninth.
> > @twistedfirestopper3 said:
> > CUK don't offer anything change related. If you want bollocks to Brexit, far better to vote LD who are at least a real party.
>
> CUK's task this election is to at least not fall behind the Greens, then as is likely by this time next year it will be a choice of Corbyn v Boris or Raab they can position themselves for Remainers who want something more fiscally conservative than the LDs or Greens but who dislike a pro hard Brexit Tory Party and a Corbynista Labour Party
The Conservative party is already pro hard Brexit.
Having Raab in charge would turn it into a lightweight ToryBoy party.
Anyone who can make the LibDems look good is dire.
> https://twitter.com/sdpyorkshumber/status/1127107098989539329
We see this sort of thing a lot, usually with workers living on site illegally.
> https://twitter.com/sdpyorkshumber/status/1127107098989539329
Its the vision of Remainer reactionaries - sweatshops in every city, chain gangs on every farm, hand carwashes on every road.
> > @isam said:
> > https://twitter.com/sdpyorkshumber/status/1127107098989539329
>
> We see this sort of thing a lot, usually with workers living on site illegally.
Do they ever get prosecuted ?
> > @isam said:
> > https://twitter.com/sdpyorkshumber/status/1127107098989539329
>
> Its the vision of Remainer reactionaries - sweatshops in every city, chain gangs on every farm, hand carwashers on every road.
Cheap nannies and au pairs. Abundant cleaners & gardeners for their homes ... and their second homes, and their third homes.
> My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
>
>
>
> Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @twistedfirestopper3 said:
> > > CUK don't offer anything change related. If you want bollocks to Brexit, far better to vote LD who are at least a real party.
> >
> > CUK's task this election is to at least not fall behind the Greens, then as is likely by this time next year it will be a choice of Corbyn v Boris or Raab they can position themselves for Remainers who want something more fiscally conservative than the LDs or Greens but who dislike a pro hard Brexit Tory Party and a Corbynista Labour Party
>
> The Conservative party is already pro hard Brexit.
>
> Having Raab in charge would turn it into a lightweight ToryBoy party.
May's Deal with the backstop is barely in the category of hard Brexit for most Brexiteers, May's Deal plus Customs Union in the PD if agreed with Labour certainly is not hard Brexit.
> From David L on the previous thread: We are having a crazy week in July when we are doing open days in Oxford, LSE and Cambridge on 3 successive days. I can only presume that it is deliberate that they overlap like this so people choose earlier or something.
>
>
> I can’t understand the “we”. If a person is old enough to go to University, to vote (moreso in Scotland I think), have children etc they’re old enough to decide without parents.
Depends who is paying the bills. Simples.
> > @isam said:
> > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
>
> CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
Remember Macron got only 24% in the first round of the French presidential election and En Marche only got 32% in the first round of the French legislative election. If CUK do a deal with the LDs on the lines of the SDP/Liberal Alliance such voteshares are possible, the SDP/Liberal Alliance of course got 25% of the vote in 1983
> > @isam said:
> > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
>
> CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
> > @Cyclefree said:
> > Well said. A good header.
> >
> > I wonder whether one of the reasons for their shambolic and incoherent start was that they felt pressurised into moving before they were really ready as a result of Luciana Berger’s decision to leave Labour before her baby was born.
> >
> > I suspect also that they expected or were hopeful that other Labour MPs would join them, which would have given them momentum, but that this was stymied by whatever Tom Watson got up to in those initial days. The full story of what happened with his manoeuvrings has yet to be told I’m sure.
>
> TIG was reported as having over a million pounds at its launch from two ex-Labour donors, so it could not have been that rushed by Luciana's baby. A more obvious explanation is the MPs know damn all about politics and had never appreciated the logistical support given by local and national parties. I doubt Jeremy Corbyn knows who prints Labour posters let alone who books helicopter flights, just that someone takes care of it.
>
> And if Tom Watson stopped future Labour defections by some unknown mechanism, which somehow has not leaked to the press, who is playing the same role on the blue team? Nearly 50 MPs have resigned from the government, three dozen over Brexit.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_resignations_from_the_second_May_ministry
>
> Why is TIG/Chuk not recruiting these disaffected Conservative MPs? Perhaps because it is not even trying.
>
> In any case, we can add the failure to exploit government resignations as an eighth point to DH's OP list.
>
> Mike Gapes' seemingly genuine surprise at being removed as a Labour member of a select committee might be a ninth.
>
>
Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics. One can't overstate the importance of having the right infrastructure in place to deliver a political party's message on the ground.
Fortunately it is not a great deal better anywhere else in the 'free' world and the economy appears to be doing ok. Who'd ever have thunk it?
> Mr. Jonathan, the Lib Dems could fulfil that role, though.
They can now, but back in February we were still wondering how long it would take them to throw off the taint of the Coalition years.
As I said yesterday, the incompetence of TIG seems to have reminded a whole bunch of centrist voters that they would miss the Lib Dems if they went away, and convinced them that it's time to forgive them for tuition fees and all that.
I don't think the timing of the Lib Dem resurgence is a coincidence. I don't think it would have happened if TIG hadn't happened.
The UK EU Party
The SDP
The English Democrats
Renew*
The Common Good Party
The Monster Raving Loony Party
The Christian People's Party
Some parties not standing in the Peterborough by-election
Change UK - The Independent Group
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @isam said:
> > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> >
> > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
>
> Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
If you live on a rural country estate you may be elite but you are more likely to be conservative elite and a Tory voter and a Leaver ie not CUK's target market.
Plenty of wealthy French conservative rural elites voted for Fillon and Les Republicains in the first round in France, not for Macron and En Marche (even if they voted for Macron in the runoff v Le Pen)
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @isam said:
> > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> >
> > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
>
> Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
And that's the LOL bit.
How many of those who regard themselves as sophisticated, cosmopolitan globalists are no better than wage slaves renting a room in a crime ridden shithole and having inequality rubbed continually in their faces ?
> > @Morris_Dancer said:
> > Mr. Jonathan, the Lib Dems could fulfil that role, though.
>
> They can now, but back in February we were still wondering how long it would take them to throw off the taint of the Coalition years.
>
> As I said yesterday, the incompetence of TIG seems to have reminded a whole bunch of centrist voters that they would miss the Lib Dems if they went away, and convinced them that it's time to forgive them for tuition fees and all that.
>
> I don't think the timing of the Lib Dem resurgence is a coincidence. I don't think it would have happened if TIG hadn't happened.
Yet the LibDems aren't doing any better than they were two years ago let alone the levels they reached regularly in the 1990s and 2000s.
And I'm not sure the ever increasing number of graduates with huge debts will ever forgive the LibDems for their betrayal as they will continually be reminded of it with every payslip they receive.
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @isam said:
> > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> >
> > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
>
> Remember Macron got only 24% in the first round of the French presidential election and En Marche only got 32% in the first round of the French legislative election. If CUK do a deal with the LDs on the lines of the SDP/Liberal Alliance such voteshares are possible, the SDP/Liberal Alliance of course got 25% of the vote in 1983
France's two round system favoured en Marche, in a way that neither our system, nor a more proportionate system, would do.
So now they have gone out on their own they don't have the survival skills.
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > @isam said:
> > > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> > >
> > > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
> >
> > Remember Macron got only 24% in the first round of the French presidential election and En Marche only got 32% in the first round of the French legislative election. If CUK do a deal with the LDs on the lines of the SDP/Liberal Alliance such voteshares are possible, the SDP/Liberal Alliance of course got 25% of the vote in 1983
>
> France's two round system favoured en Marche, in a way that neither our system, nor a more proportionate system, would do.
Macron and En Marche still narrowly came top though, even in the first round at least in terms of voteshare. If the Brexit Party continue to split the right with the Tories and a CUK/LD Alliance eat into the Labour vote it is not impossible to imagine that CUK/LD Alliance coming top though without a majority
> > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > @isam said:
> > > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> > >
> > > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
> >
> > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
>
> And that's the LOL bit.
>
> How many of those who regard themselves as sophisticated, cosmopolitan globalists are no better than wage slaves renting a room in a crime ridden shithole and having inequality rubbed continually in their faces ?
Most of them earn significantly more than the national average and will move to the Home Counties to buy a property in due course helped by both partners combining London wages to do so
>
> But enough of the measured equivocation, Malc, tell us what you really think.
The LibDems have learnt a rude word. We think it was probably something they picked up off the TV.
Like a very young pre-schooler, they are now using their new rude word all the time.
The word sounds funny and it can get a bit of a reaction. They like the new word because it gets them some attention.
Soon, they will have to go and see the Reception teacher, who will give a short talk on respectful speaking.
> > @HYUFD said:
>
> > > @isam said:
>
> > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
>
> >
>
> > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
>
>
>
> Remember Macron got only 24% in the first round of the French presidential election and En Marche only got 32% in the first round of the French legislative election. If CUK do a deal with the LDs on the lines of the SDP/Liberal Alliance such voteshares are possible, the SDP/Liberal Alliance of course got 25% of the vote in 1983
>
> I think a factor is that Blair-Cameronism led to lots of people in politics who didn't have to do much work to get there. Farage, the Lib Dems and the Labour Left have all had the experience of having to fight to get something that they couldn't take for granted. The ChUks have some good qualities, but they owe their positions to patronage not pavement pounding.
>
> So now they have gone out on their own they don't have the survival skills.
I agree they need a pact with the LDs to grow
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > @isam said:
> > > > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> > > >
> > > > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
> > >
> > > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
> >
> > And that's the LOL bit.
> >
> > How many of those who regard themselves as sophisticated, cosmopolitan globalists are no better than wage slaves renting a room in a crime ridden shithole and having inequality rubbed continually in their faces ?
>
> Most of them earn significantly more than the national average and will move to the Home Counties to buy a property in due course helped by both partners combining London wages to do so
Perhaps you could give some data as to how home ownership levels have changed since 2000.
> https://twitter.com/sdpyorkshumber/status/1127107098989539329
The Leicester sweatshops were reported on back in 2010 by Channel 4:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/retail-giants-shamed-by-uk-sweatshops-2128022.html
It doesn't seem like much has changed since then.
And compare and contrast the launch of CUK with the Brexit Party's near perfect launch.
The difference is pretty embarrassing actually.
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @another_richard said:
> > > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > > @isam said:
> > > > > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> > > > >
> > > > > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
> > > >
> > > > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
> > >
> > > And that's the LOL bit.
> > >
> > > How many of those who regard themselves as sophisticated, cosmopolitan globalists are no better than wage slaves renting a room in a crime ridden shithole and having inequality rubbed continually in their faces ?
> >
> > Most of them earn significantly more than the national average and will move to the Home Counties to buy a property in due course helped by both partners combining London wages to do so
>
> Perhaps you could give some data as to how home ownership levels have changed since 2000.
Home ownership levels seem to be on the rise again, now that private house building has surged.
https://twitter.com/ainemagu/status/1127148123795673088
> Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
*
I've noticed this too.
'Elite' has come to mean knowing what a cappuccino is and not being discombobulated by foreigners and tall buildings.
>
> The difference is pretty embarrassing actually.
I don't like Farage, but he is no fool. He has comprehensively done a better job than Chuka & Co.
DavidH could have entitled his article "The Brexit Party have given a masterclass in how to launch a political party"
This is why a second referendum may not be such a good idea for Remainers. The people running TIG will be the people running Remain !
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > @another_richard said:
> > > > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > > > @isam said:
> > > > > > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> > > > > >
> > > > > > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
> > > >
> > > > And that's the LOL bit.
> > > >
> > > > How many of those who regard themselves as sophisticated, cosmopolitan globalists are no better than wage slaves renting a room in a crime ridden shithole and having inequality rubbed continually in their faces ?
> > >
> > > Most of them earn significantly more than the national average and will move to the Home Counties to buy a property in due course helped by both partners combining London wages to do so
> >
> > Perhaps you could give some data as to how home ownership levels have changed since 2000.
>
> Home ownership levels seem to be on the rise again, now that private house building has surged.
Which is a good thing but there's over a decade of 'catch up' required to get back to where we should be.
Meanwhile we have to put up with Hyufd's panglossian view of housing and inheritance.
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @another_richard said:
> > > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > > @isam said:
> > > > > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> > > > >
> > > > > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
> > > >
> > > > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
> > >
> > > And that's the LOL bit.
> > >
> > > How many of those who regard themselves as sophisticated, cosmopolitan globalists are no better than wage slaves renting a room in a crime ridden shithole and having inequality rubbed continually in their faces ?
> >
> > Most of them earn significantly more than the national average and will move to the Home Counties to buy a property in due course helped by both partners combining London wages to do so
>
> Perhaps you could give some data as to how home ownership levels have changed since 2000.
I could tell you that most people are still home owners by 40.
Even in 2013-14 the ONS figures show almost 60% of 35 to 44 year olds were home owners
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/articles/ukperspectives2016housingandhomeownershipintheuk/2016-05-25
> > @noneoftheabove said:
>
> > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
>
> *
>
> I've noticed this too.
>
> 'Elite' has come to mean knowing what a cappuccino is and not being discombobulated by foreigners and tall buildings.
That must mean that the super-elite know what a Flat White is.
Playing the race card over migration, or the UN wibbling about the UK's human rights record when decade-long squatters were finally forced out of Dale Farm, spring to mind.
Mr. Divvie, that's utterly barbaric.
I'd be wary of using single instances or small samples to label a whole group, though, unless you consider all the Irish to be represented by the IRA...
> Our brave lads.
>
> https://twitter.com/ainemagu/status/1127148123795673088
Nobody gives a toss about what may or may not have happened a long time ago in a far away place.
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > @another_richard said:
> > > > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > > > @isam said:
> > > > > > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> > > > > >
> > > > > > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
> > > >
> > > > And that's the LOL bit.
> > > >
> > > > How many of those who regard themselves as sophisticated, cosmopolitan globalists are no better than wage slaves renting a room in a crime ridden shithole and having inequality rubbed continually in their faces ?
> > >
> > > Most of them earn significantly more than the national average and will move to the Home Counties to buy a property in due course helped by both partners combining London wages to do so
> >
> > Perhaps you could give some data as to how home ownership levels have changed since 2000.
>
> Home ownership levels seem to be on the rise again, now that private house building has surged.
Yes house building is on the up again
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-homes-new-numbers-high-construction-a8177061.html
All that being said, CUK have not grabbed as much momentum as they would have hoped. In seeming to want to replace a party with the exact same policy as them if they then fail to beat them in the Euros, as now seems very likely, it does beg the question what are they there for. They engage in the same whining about the media and moaning about unfairness as others, and the 'the big parties are all bad we need a change' line is very stock and cliche.
Basically by elimination of other options I was thinking as an encouragement to those who wish to try to break through our rigid party system they deserve a vote in the Euros, but if I follow through on that it will be half hearted. But here in the SW the LDs will already get one this time I think, and I don't think there's much chance of them getting more, so there's no harm in voting CUK.
Honestly I should probably vote Con out of pity and in recognition of having long backed the deal, but I just don't think I can bring myself to reward a party in such a state, and which is eagerly telling its MPs it wants to take a massive shift to no deal brexit and the right.
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > @another_richard said:
> > > > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > > > @isam said:
> > > > > > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> > > > > >
> > > > > > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
> > > >
> > > > And that's the LOL bit.
> > > >
> > > > How many of those who regard themselves as sophisticated, cosmopolitan globalists are no better than wage slaves renting a room in a crime ridden shithole and having inequality rubbed continually in their faces ?
> > >
> > > Most of them earn significantly more than the national average and will move to the Home Counties to buy a property in due course helped by both partners combining London wages to do so
> >
> > Perhaps you could give some data as to how home ownership levels have changed since 2000.
>
> I could tell you that most people are still home owners by 40.
>
> Even in 2013-14 the ONS figures show almost 60% of 35 to 44 year olds were home owners
>
> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/articles/ukperspectives2016housingandhomeownershipintheuk/2016-05-25
' The chances of a young adult on a middle income owning a home in the UK have more than halved in the past two decades.
New research from the Institute for Fiscal Studies shows how an explosion in house prices above income growth has increasingly robbed the younger generation of the ability to buy their own home. For 25- to 34-year-olds earning between £22,200 and £30,600 per year, home ownership fell to just 27% in 2016 from 65% two decades ago. '
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/feb/16/homeownership-among-young-adults-collapsed-institute-fiscal-studies
> > @Sean_F said:
> > > @another_richard said:
> > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > @another_richard said:
> > > > > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > > > > @isam said:
> > > > > > > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
> > > > >
> > > > > And that's the LOL bit.
> > > > >
> > > > > How many of those who regard themselves as sophisticated, cosmopolitan globalists are no better than wage slaves renting a room in a crime ridden shithole and having inequality rubbed continually in their faces ?
> > > >
> > > > Most of them earn significantly more than the national average and will move to the Home Counties to buy a property in due course helped by both partners combining London wages to do so
> > >
> > > Perhaps you could give some data as to how home ownership levels have changed since 2000.
> >
> > Home ownership levels seem to be on the rise again, now that private house building has surged.
>
> Which is a good thing but there's over a decade of 'catch up' required to get back to where we should be.
>
> Meanwhile we have to put up with Hyufd's panglossian view of housing and inheritance.
It is not panglossian to point out most people have bought their first property by 40 (certainly outside London) and more people are receiving an inheritance in their 50s and 60s than ever before and in some cases a sizeable inheritance helped by Osborne's inheritance tax cut.
In 2015 the age at which most voters first voted Tory was 35, by 2017 it was 47. It was not housing which saw that 12 year rise in age of the average first time Tory voter in just 2 years but Brexit
> > @noneoftheabove said:
>
> > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
>
> *
>
> I've noticed this too.
>
> 'Elite' has come to mean knowing what a cappuccino is and not being discombobulated by foreigners and tall buildings.
A reasonable thing to do might be to look at which constituencies have the largest mean income (earned and unearned). There is data on the House of Commons website on this.
They seem to be Kensington, City of London & Westminster, Westminster North, Wimbledon and Chelsea & Fulham.
Seems a reasonable definition of a moneyed elite to me, and it seems to be ... err ... metropolitan.
> > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > @isam said:
> > > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> > >
> > > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
> >
> > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
>
> And that's the LOL bit.
>
> How many of those who regard themselves as sophisticated, cosmopolitan globalists are no better than wage slaves renting a room in a crime ridden shithole and having inequality rubbed continually in their faces ?
Most people in London do not see themselves as superior or elite, that label has been given to us by others in an attempt to belittle our views. There is clearly a cultural difference, and differences in values between the cities and smaller towns or rural life, but for standard of living the average Londoner does not have it significantly better than the average person in the rest of the country. (Average earnings higher but average costs even higher; for anyone working in public services they are very likely to be significantly worse off in London yet get lumped in as elite).
Calling us elite is just another example of trying to divide the country and ignoring people with different views, it also lets the real elite off during a period they have taken an ever increasing share of the countrys wealth.
> > @kinabalu said:
> > > @noneoftheabove said:
> >
> > > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
> >
> > *
> >
> > I've noticed this too.
> >
> > 'Elite' has come to mean knowing what a cappuccino is and not being discombobulated by foreigners and tall buildings.
>
> That must mean that the super-elite know what a Flat White is.
How do tea drinkers fit into this classifications.
Say someone who drinks flavoured, powdered tea or someone who drinks green tea ?
For me, Change were doomed for 2 main reasons, (i) there is no yawning gap for a new centrist and pro-EU party when we have the perfectly serviceable LDs, and (ii) the creation was tops down rather than bottoms up and the founders have little in common politically other than a desperation to stay in the EU and a loathing of Jeremy Corbyn.
> For all the talk of the CUKers cocking up, let’s not forget the first prize winners in the how-not-to-do-politics awards. That one goes to the seven climate change protesters, who didn’t understand how the EU elections work and decided to stand individually in London, paying £5k deposits each and with no chance of any of them getting elected.
Appearing seven times on the ballot paper will lead to some confusion and probably cost the Greens some votes.
> Mr. Kinabalu, definitions have been stretched and abused for a long time.
>
> Playing the race card over migration, or the UN wibbling about the UK's human rights record when decade-long squatters were finally forced out of Dale Farm, spring to mind.
>
> Mr. Divvie, that's utterly barbaric.
>
> I'd be wary of using single instances or small samples to label a whole group, though, unless you consider all the Irish to be represented by the IRA...
I think in the light of this, Ballymurphy & Bloody Sunday we could probably attach some sort of label to 1 PARA.
Mr. Divvie, the unit, perhaps. Not the entire army/armed forces.
> > @Theuniondivvie said:
> > Our brave lads.
> >
> > https://twitter.com/ainemagu/status/1127148123795673088
>
> Nobody gives a toss about what may or may not have happened a long time ago in a far away place.
I wish you'd tell that to the lads ramping up their marches outside Catholic chapels where I live. A good few of them will also have 'I'm with soldier F' t shirts I'm sure.
> > @kinabalu said:
> > > @noneoftheabove said:
> >
> > > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
> >
> > *
> >
> > I've noticed this too.
> >
> > 'Elite' has come to mean knowing what a cappuccino is and not being discombobulated by foreigners and tall buildings.
>
> A reasonable thing to do might be to look at which constituencies have the largest mean income (earned and unearned). There is data on the House of Commons website on this.
>
> They seem to be Kensington, City of London & Westminster, Westminster North, Wimbledon and Chelsea & Fulham.
>
> Seems a reasonable definition of a moneyed elite to me, and it seems to be ... err ... metropolitan.
>
With the exception of Wimbldeon those constituencies will have low levels of home ownership and high levels of inequality.
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @Sean_F said:
> > > > @another_richard said:
> > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > > @another_richard said:
> > > > > > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > > > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > > > > > @isam said:
> > > > > > > > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And that's the LOL bit.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How many of those who regard themselves as sophisticated, cosmopolitan globalists are no better than wage slaves renting a room in a crime ridden shithole and having inequality rubbed continually in their faces ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Most of them earn significantly more than the national average and will move to the Home Counties to buy a property in due course helped by both partners combining London wages to do so
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps you could give some data as to how home ownership levels have changed since 2000.
> > >
> > > Home ownership levels seem to be on the rise again, now that private house building has surged.
> >
> > Which is a good thing but there's over a decade of 'catch up' required to get back to where we should be.
> >
> > Meanwhile we have to put up with Hyufd's panglossian view of housing and inheritance.
>
> It is not panglossian to point out most people have bought their first property by 40 (certainly outside London) and more people are receiving an inheritance in their 50s and 60s than ever before and in some cases a sizeable inheritance helped by Osborne's inheritance tax cut.
>
> In 2015 the age at which most voters first voted Tory was 35, by 2017 it was 47. It was not housing which saw that 12 year rise in age of the average first time Tory voter in just 2 years but Brexit
An inheritance when you are over 50 is not going to help you buy a house.
Nor for that matter is the student debt the Conservatives have stuck on young graduates.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48213333
> > @YBarddCwsc said:
> > > @kinabalu said:
> > > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > >
> > > > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
> > >
> > > *
> > >
> > > I've noticed this too.
> > >
> > > 'Elite' has come to mean knowing what a cappuccino is and not being discombobulated by foreigners and tall buildings.
> >
> > A reasonable thing to do might be to look at which constituencies have the largest mean income (earned and unearned). There is data on the House of Commons website on this.
> >
> > They seem to be Kensington, City of London & Westminster, Westminster North, Wimbledon and Chelsea & Fulham.
> >
> > Seems a reasonable definition of a moneyed elite to me, and it seems to be ... err ... metropolitan.
> >
>
> With the exception of Wimbldeon those constituencies will have low levels of home ownership and high levels of inequality.
There is a fair bit of social housing in those constituencies but they are also full of twentysomething bankers, corporate and commercial lawyers and tech workers who will rent in central London for a few years before buying a house in Surrey etc in their mid 30s.
While if they are rich enough to buy in Kensington and Chelsea or Cities of London and Westminster they will have an asset worth at least £1 million+
> Most people in London do not see themselves as superior or elite, that label has been given to us by others in an attempt to belittle our views. There is clearly a cultural difference, and differences in values between the cities and smaller towns or rural life, but for standard of living the average Londoner does not have it significantly better than the average person in the rest of the country. (Average earnings higher but average costs even higher; for anyone working in public services they are very likely to be significantly worse off in London yet get lumped in as elite).
----
When we are talking about an elite, we probably should not be talking about averages.
We should be looking at, say, the top tenth percentile of the distribution.
The top tenth percentile of Londoners is an elite, and it is vastly more wealthy the the top tenth percentile in Wales or in Scotland or the North of England.
Sure, there are poor people in London. On average, Londoners are only a bit richer than people in the Midlands.
But the distribution of wealth in London is very different to the distribution of wealth elsewhere in the country, and it has a very long tail towards very wealthy people. In shorthand, there is a metropolitan elite.
> > @SandyRentool said:
> > > @kinabalu said:
> > > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > >
> > > > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
> > >
> > > *
> > >
> > > I've noticed this too.
> > >
> > > 'Elite' has come to mean knowing what a cappuccino is and not being discombobulated by foreigners and tall buildings.
> >
> > That must mean that the super-elite know what a Flat White is.
>
> How do tea drinkers fit into this classifications.
>
> Say someone who drinks flavoured, powdered tea or someone who drinks green tea ?
As someone who drinks green tea with milk I'm definitely not part of the elite.
>
> With the exception of Wimbldeon those constituencies will have low levels of home ownership and high levels of inequality.
Absolutely. If you own property in those places, you are in a very different position to someone renting.
> > @Theuniondivvie said:
> > Our brave lads.
> >
> > https://twitter.com/ainemagu/status/1127148123795673088
>
> Nobody gives a toss about what may or may not have happened a long time ago in a far away place.
What an absolutely appalling comment. Many of those involved are still alive, and one can totally understand their anger.
> > @YBarddCwsc said:
> > > @kinabalu said:
> > > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > >
> > > > Why on earth does living in a city make someone elite? Living in your rural country estate sending your children to Eton, (when not with their nanny) seems to be salt of the earth today, whereas renting a two bed shared ownership flat in Croydon counts as elite. What a strange change of meaning for the word elite over the last ten years.
> > >
> > > *
> > >
> > > I've noticed this too.
> > >
> > > 'Elite' has come to mean knowing what a cappuccino is and not being discombobulated by foreigners and tall buildings.
> >
> > A reasonable thing to do might be to look at which constituencies have the largest mean income (earned and unearned). There is data on the House of Commons website on this.
> >
> > They seem to be Kensington, City of London & Westminster, Westminster North, Wimbledon and Chelsea & Fulham.
> >
> > Seems a reasonable definition of a moneyed elite to me, and it seems to be ... err ... metropolitan.
> >
>
> With the exception of Wimbldeon those constituencies will have low levels of home ownership and high levels of inequality.
Yes, anyone who owns a house or even an average flat in those constituencies is probably part of the elite. Many of the people who do own there wont be Londoners, but live elsewhere, often leafy rural England, or abroad. As an educated guess you might be talking about 25k-75k of homeowners in the boroughs listed above out of 8 million Londoners.
Those in council housing (the likes of Grenfell) are not elite merely because of where they live.
> > @noneoftheabove said:
> > Most people in London do not see themselves as superior or elite, that label has been given to us by others in an attempt to belittle our views. There is clearly a cultural difference, and differences in values between the cities and smaller towns or rural life, but for standard of living the average Londoner does not have it significantly better than the average person in the rest of the country. (Average earnings higher but average costs even higher; for anyone working in public services they are very likely to be significantly worse off in London yet get lumped in as elite).
>
> ----
>
> When we are talking about an elite, we probably should not be talking about averages.
>
> We should be looking at, say, the top tenth percentile of the distribution.
>
> The top tenth percentile of Londoners is an elite, and it is vastly more wealthy the the top tenth percentile in Wales or in Scotland or the North of England.
>
> Sure, there are poor people in London. On average, Londoners are only a bit richer than people in the Midlands.
>
> But the distribution of wealth in London is very different to the distribution of wealth elsewhere in the country, and it has a very long tail towards very wealthy people. In shorthand, there is a metropolitan elite.
Of course there is a metropolitan elite. As there is a rural elite. It is the casual mixing of the words metropolitan and elite together to make the views of 8 million Londoners count for less that is dubious at best.
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @another_richard said:
> > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > @another_richard said:
> > > > > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > > > > @isam said:
> > > > > > > > My twitter trends sum up ChangeUKs problem
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Maybe they will surprise us all at the Euro Elections, but right from the off I never really got how they were meant to appeal to the masses. They seemed like a bunch of upper middle class, dinner party guests who were mildly put out at the food on offer rather than genuinely fired up, passionate activists for social change
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > CUK are not designed to appeal to the masses, much like En Marche they are designed to appeal to the liberal, metropolitan, pro EU and relaxed about immigration elite.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why on earth does living in a city make e over the last ten years.
> > > > >
> > > > > And that's the LOL bit.
> > > > >
> > > > > How many of those who regard themselves as sophisticated, cosmopolitan globalists are no better than wage slaves renting a room in a crime ridden shithole and having inequality rubbed continually in their faces ?
> > > >
> > > > Most of them earn significantly more than the national average and will move to the Home Counties to buy a property in due course helped by both partners combining London wages to do so
> > >
> > > Perhaps you could give some data as to how home ownership levels have changed since 2000.
> >
> > I could tell you that most people are still home owners by 40.
> >
> > Even in 2013-14 the ONS figures show almost 60% of 35 to 44 year olds were home owners
> >
> > https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/articles/ukperspectives2016housingandhomeownershipintheuk/2016-05-25
>
> ' The chances of a young adult on a middle income owning a home in the UK have more than halved in the past two decades.
>
> New research from the Institute for Fiscal Studies shows how an explosion in house prices above income growth has increasingly robbed the younger generation of the ability to buy their own home. For 25- to 34-year-olds earning between £22,200 and £30,600 per year, home ownership fell to just 27% in 2016 from 65% two decades ago. '
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/feb/16/homeownership-among-young-adults-collapsed-institute-fiscal-studies
So the average age of a first time buyer has shifted from 25 to 34 to 35 to 44 but given we marry later now too if at all and more of us are graduates and join the workforce later that is also to be expected in line with that trend and house building is also finally increasing again to help more young people get on the housing ladder
> > @kinabalu said:
> > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > 'Elite' has come to mean knowing what a cappuccino is and not being discombobulated by foreigners and tall buildings.
>
> That must mean that the super-elite know what a Flat White is.
Yes - they are THE ONE PERCENT.
> > @Morris_Dancer said:
> > Mr. Kinabalu, definitions have been stretched and abused for a long time.
> >
> > Playing the race card over migration, or the UN wibbling about the UK's human rights record when decade-long squatters were finally forced out of Dale Farm, spring to mind.
> >
> > Mr. Divvie, that's utterly barbaric.
> >
> > I'd be wary of using single instances or small samples to label a whole group, though, unless you consider all the Irish to be represented by the IRA...
>
> I think in the light of this, Ballymurphy & Bloody Sunday we could probably attach some sort of label to 1 PARA.
At least Mercer's honest enough to say people who are his mates shouldn't be prosecuted.