> @Sunil_Prasannan said: > > @twistedfirestopper3 said: > > > > @nico67 said: > > > > > @twistedfirestopper3 said: > > > > > Bollox to Brexit is great if you really hate people who voted to Leave. Not so great if, as Mr Meeks likes to point out, you want to reach out to the other side. Is it acceptable to say "Fuck the Lib Dems"? > > > > > > > > The Lib Dems aren’t telling Leave voters to F off ! And bollocks is a lighthearted phrase , it’s really not that strong. And the Lib Dems are trying to get as many Remain votes , an EU election isn’t the time to try and convince Leave voters to change their mind . If people want some waffle and unite the country guff they should look to vote for Labour ! > > > > > > Trouble is, many people will feel that the LDs Are saying Bollox to them personally. I'd never vote LD anyway, so I don't care what they say. But if OGH says it's a plus for them, I ain't gonna argue. > > > > As a Remainer let’s say a party had Bollocks to Brussels or Bollocks to the EU I wouldn’t take it personally . I think it’s a pretty funny term and not in the least bit offensive . > > Bollocks to Brussels
To the contrary , bollocks to the ERG.. Vote LD in the euro elections!
"Bollocks to Brexit" contributes to a coarsening of the political debate.
Of course, the LibDems are not the only ones to have made politics mean-spirited and boorish. But, they have now added their pennyworth to the vast fund of ill-feeling and rudeness.
The losers in all this are the politicians themselves -- it becomes more acceptable to behave rudely to MPs, hence for example the assaults on candidates during the local elections.
And of course, the other loser is politics itself, which should be about ideas and principles, about argument and debate.
I was probably never going to vote LibDem again anyhow, but this is just one more reason not do.
The usual old nonsense rounded off with the salutary "I'm never voting Lib Dem again" - forgive me if I'm not sobbing in a corner somewhere. Seriously? Politics is about trying to reach your supporters - wasting time trying to reach those who aren't going to vote for you may make the individual activist feel better and may enhance the political process but it gets you nowhere.
Politics is also adversarial, passionate, emotional and sometimes unpleasant. Someone once called it "a rough trade". It always has been - how much different was "crush the saboteurs"? Not much.
> @Roger said: > > @twistedfirestopper3 said: > > > @Roger said: > > > > @RobD said: > > > > > @DavidL said: > > > > > So here's the state of play at L Towers. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think a good way to ensure that May's deal is eventually signed (because it's probably as good as it gets) is to vote for the Brexit party. A big margin for the Brexit party will send a pretty strong message to those in Westminster. That, and the arrow.... > > > > > > But you'd have to watch in cringing embarrassment as these fruitcakes take their seats in the European parliament. Things are going to be bad enough for the British service sector after Brexit without our reputation being tarnished further > > > > Roger, the fruitcake that will will be voted in will be entirely the fault of people like you continually telling people like me what a thick, racist, xenophobic little Englander I am. I may as well live down to your expectations of me. > > You're Britain's finest! Public servants who save lives are forgiven for making eccentric political judgements.
> @YBarddCwsc said: > "Bollocks to Brexit" contributes to a coarsening of the political debate. > > Of course, the LibDems are not the only ones to have made politics mean-spirited and boorish. But, they have now added their pennyworth to the vast fund of ill-feeling and rudeness. > > The losers in all this are the politicians themselves -- it becomes more acceptable to behave rudely to MPs, hence for example the assaults on candidates during the local elections. > > And of course, the other loser is politics itself, which should be about ideas and principles, about argument and debate. > > I was probably never going to vote LibDem again anyhow, but this is just one more reason not do.
'Bollocks' is word people like using. It rolls off the tongue. 'Brexit' is harsh and ugly like the crackle of a rifle. I can't think of many straplines which tell a story in such a catchy way in three words. Beanz Meanz Heinz eat your heart out!
So, quick totting up, it seems to be broadly the case that 'Bollocks To Brexit' as a strap line is viewed as strong and appropriate by Remainers but by Leavers as crass and off putting.
> @stodge said: > "Bollocks to Brexit" contributes to a coarsening of the political debate. > > > > Of course, the LibDems are not the only ones to have made politics mean-spirited and boorish. But, they have now added their pennyworth to the vast fund of ill-feeling and rudeness. > > > > The losers in all this are the politicians themselves -- it becomes more acceptable to behave rudely to MPs, hence for example the assaults on candidates during the local elections. > > > > And of course, the other loser is politics itself, which should be about ideas and principles, about argument and debate. > > > > I was probably never going to vote LibDem again anyhow, but this is just one more reason not do. > > The usual old nonsense rounded off with the salutary "I'm never voting Lib Dem again" - forgive me if I'm not sobbing in a corner somewhere. Seriously? Politics is about trying to reach your supporters - wasting time trying to reach those who aren't going to vote for you may make the individual activist feel better and may enhance the political process but it gets you nowhere. > > Politics is also adversarial, passionate, emotional and sometimes unpleasant. Someone once called it "a rough trade". It always has been - how much different was "crush the saboteurs"? Not much.
But it is only one step removed from 'F... the Tories' or 'F... Labour' - or indeed 'the Tories are c....'.
" The usual old nonsense rounded off with the salutary "I'm never voting Lib Dem again" - forgive me if I'm not sobbing in a corner somewhere. Seriously? Politics is about trying to reach your supporters - wasting time trying to reach those who aren't going to vote for you may make the individual activist feel better and may enhance the political process but it gets you nowhere.
Politics is also adversarial, passionate, emotional and sometimes unpleasant. Someone once called it "a rough trade". It always has been - how much different was "crush the saboteurs"? Not much."
I actually voted for Mike Smithson himself once, when he stood as an Oxford Councillor. Of course, if the LibDems are not interested in why one-time supporters drift away, that's fine ....
"Crush the saboteurs" was a headline devised by a not particularly salubrious newspaper, not a political party. It is hardly comparable.
Politics is adversarial, but you have certainly lost the right to complain about the foulness of Trump and Farage if your idea of a well-reasoned argument is "Bollocks to Brexit".
And, I repeat, the main loser is politicians themselves. The coarsening of debate makes it more acceptable to scream obscenities in the faces of candidates, or threaten violence.
> @kinabalu said: > So, quick totting up, it seems to be broadly the case that 'Bollocks To Brexit' as a strap line is viewed as strong and appropriate by Remainers but by Leavers as crass and off putting.
Perhaps it is now fair game to say 'F... the LDs' or 'The LDs are c....'!
I have to admit that I'm one Lib Dem who is a bit uneasy about the "Bollocks to Brexit" slogan. I've never liked it. That doesn't mean that I don't think it'll work for us though - it probably will but it's just not my style.
> @kinabalu said: > So, quick totting up, it seems to be broadly the case that 'Bollocks To Brexit' as a strap line is viewed as strong and appropriate by Remainers but by Leavers as crass and off putting.
So now we know that leavers are very concerned about the coarsening of politics can we expect them to forswear accusations of betrayal and treachery and veiled threats of civil unrest?
> @justin124 said: > > @stodge said: > > "Bollocks to Brexit" contributes to a coarsening of the political debate. > > > > > > > > Of course, the LibDems are not the only ones to have made politics mean-spirited and boorish. But, they have now added their pennyworth to the vast fund of ill-feeling and rudeness. > > > > > > > > The losers in all this are the politicians themselves -- it becomes more acceptable to behave rudely to MPs, hence for example the assaults on candidates during the local elections. > > > > > > > > And of course, the other loser is politics itself, which should be about ideas and principles, about argument and debate. > > > > > > > > I was probably never going to vote LibDem again anyhow, but this is just one more reason not do. > > > > The usual old nonsense rounded off with the salutary "I'm never voting Lib Dem again" - forgive me if I'm not sobbing in a corner somewhere. Seriously? Politics is about trying to reach your supporters - wasting time trying to reach those who aren't going to vote for you may make the individual activist feel better and may enhance the political process but it gets you nowhere. > > > > Politics is also adversarial, passionate, emotional and sometimes unpleasant. Someone once called it "a rough trade". It always has been - how much different was "crush the saboteurs"? Not much. > > But it is only one step removed from 'F... the Tories' or 'F... Labour' - or indeed 'the Tories are c....'.
There are several terms stronger than bollocks which fall short of the f word though.
> @anothernick said: > > @kinabalu said: > > So, quick totting up, it seems to be broadly the case that 'Bollocks To Brexit' as a strap line is viewed as strong and appropriate by Remainers but by Leavers as crass and off putting. > > So now we know that leavers are very concerned about the coarsening of politics can we expect them to forswear accusations of betrayal and treachery and veiled threats of civil unrest? >
Nah, all of it is fair game now on both sides. Noone gives a shit what the other side thinks.
> @Torby_Fennel said: > I have to admit that I'm one Lib Dem who is a bit uneasy about the "Bollocks to Brexit" slogan. I've never liked it. That doesn't mean that I don't think it'll work for us though - it probably will but it's just not my style.
I respectfully tip my hat to you, as you have acknowledged your uneasiness with your own party's behaviour.
Will it work? Perhaps in the very short term (though even then, I'm not completely sure).
In the long term, I expect not, as Remainerdom and Leverstan have to reach a compromise that both can live with.
> @Pulpstar said: > > @anothernick said: > > > @kinabalu said: > > > So, quick totting up, it seems to be broadly the case that 'Bollocks To Brexit' as a strap line is viewed as strong and appropriate by Remainers but by Leavers as crass and off putting. > > > > So now we know that leavers are very concerned about the coarsening of politics can we expect them to forswear accusations of betrayal and treachery and veiled threats of civil unrest? > > > > Nah, all of it is fair game now on both sides. Noone gives a shit what the other side thinks.
> > So, quick totting up, it seems to be broadly the case that 'Bollocks To Brexit' as a strap line is viewed as strong and appropriate by Remainers but by Leavers as crass and off putting.
>
> So now we know that leavers are very concerned about the coarsening of politics can we expect them to forswear accusations of betrayal and treachery and veiled threats of civil unrest?
>
Nah, all of it is fair game now on both sides. Noone gives a shit what the other side thinks.
> @Torby_Fennel said: > I have to admit that I'm one Lib Dem who is a bit uneasy about the "Bollocks to Brexit" slogan. I've never liked it. That doesn't mean that I don't think it'll work for us though - it probably will but it's just not my style.
The danger is you become seen as just a protest party - like the 'Brexit' mob.
Worse still, there's no nuance there - you're just dismissing the EURef.
If 'Bollocks to Brexit' is all the LDs have after 3 years of governmental catastrophe then you need to be quite worried.
> @YBarddCwsc said: > Stodge said: > > " The usual old nonsense rounded off with the salutary "I'm never voting Lib Dem again" - forgive me if I'm not sobbing in a corner somewhere. Seriously? Politics is about trying to reach your supporters - wasting time trying to reach those who aren't going to vote for you may make the individual activist feel better and may enhance the political process but it gets you nowhere. > > Politics is also adversarial, passionate, emotional and sometimes unpleasant. Someone once called it "a rough trade". It always has been - how much different was "crush the saboteurs"? Not much." > > > I actually voted for Mike Smithson himself once, when he stood as an Oxford Councillor. Of course, if the LibDems are not interested in why one-time supporters drift away, that's fine .... > > "Crush the saboteurs" was a headline devised by a not particularly salubrious newspaper, not a political party. It is hardly comparable. > > Politics is adversarial, but you have certainly lost the right to complain about the foulness of Trump and Farage if your idea of a well-reasoned argument is "Bollocks to Brexit". > > And, I repeat, the main loser is politicians themselves. The coarsening of debate makes it more acceptable to scream obscenities in the faces of candidates, or threaten violence. ______________________________________
If we want a slightly less adversarial form of politics, I suggest that after ~150 years of discussing it we adopt PR for the EU elections, also for HoC and local government elections. The 'PR' system imposed by Labour for the EU elections in 1999 is laughable, which is probably why post-Good Friday agreement they dared not use the same system in N. Ireland.
'Proper' PR would give a party with 8% of the vote 0.08 x 73 = 6 MEPs, not 3 or 1.
'Proper' PR would give a party with 11% of the vote 71 MPs, not ~12.
I actually voted for Mike Smithson himself once, when he stood as an Oxford Councillor. Of course, if the LibDems are not interested in why one-time supporters drift away, that's fine ....
"Crush the saboteurs" was a headline devised by a not particularly salubrious newspaper, not a political party. It is hardly comparable.
Politics is adversarial, but you have certainly lost the right to complain about the foulness of Trump and Farage if your idea of a well-reasoned argument is "Bollocks to Brexit".
And, I repeat, the main loser is politicians themselves. The coarsening of debate makes it more acceptable to scream obscenities in the faces of candidates, or threaten violence.
I've never complained about Trump or Farage on here - they can and should be called out when they tell outright lies but in the history of political discourse, they aren't anything unusual. Look at how politics were conducted here in the 19th Century - violence and intimidation were endemic. Corruption existed in the USA for decades and of course democracy is far from perfect in many countries which purport to be democratic.
Yes, of course, the murder of Jo Cox was terrible as were the murders of Ian Gow and Airey Neave and the attacks on Nigel Jones and Stephen Timms and a catalogue of other events. None of this began on 24/6/16 it has always been at the edge of political discourse.
This is the bearpit - not all the bears play nice - I don't sometimes.
The point is about the survival of democracy itself - those who would threaten whether in the name of "security" or "order" to restrict the franchise or make it harder for people to vote are the real enemies of democracy. There's nothing wrong with plurality - the cacophony is comforting. If you want to join the debate, you are more than welcome but don't expect it to be an afternoon tea party at the vicarage.
> " The usual old nonsense rounded off with the salutary "I'm never voting Lib Dem again" - forgive me if I'm not sobbing in a corner somewhere. Seriously? Politics is about trying to reach your supporters - wasting time trying to reach those who aren't going to vote for you may make the individual activist feel better and may enhance the political process but it gets you nowhere.
>
> Politics is also adversarial, passionate, emotional and sometimes unpleasant. Someone once called it "a rough trade". It always has been - how much different was "crush the saboteurs"? Not much."
>
>
> I actually voted for Mike Smithson himself once, when he stood as an Oxford Councillor. Of course, if the LibDems are not interested in why one-time supporters drift away, that's fine ....
>
> "Crush the saboteurs" was a headline devised by a not particularly salubrious newspaper, not a political party. It is hardly comparable.
>
> Politics is adversarial, but you have certainly lost the right to complain about the foulness of Trump and Farage if your idea of a well-reasoned argument is "Bollocks to Brexit".
>
> And, I repeat, the main loser is politicians themselves. The coarsening of debate makes it more acceptable to scream obscenities in the faces of candidates, or threaten violence.
______________________________________
If we want a slightly less adversarial form of politics, I suggest that after ~150 years of discussing it we adopt PR for the EU elections, also for HoC and local government elections. The 'PR' system imposed by Labour for the EU elections in 1999 is laughable, which is probably why post-Good Friday agreement they dared not use the same system in N. Ireland.
'Proper' PR would give a party with 8% of the vote 0.08 x 73 = 6 MEPs, not 3 or 1.
'Proper' PR would give a party with 11% of the vote 71 MPs, not ~12.
> > So, quick totting up, it seems to be broadly the case that 'Bollocks To Brexit' as a strap line is viewed as strong and appropriate by Remainers but by Leavers as crass and off putting.
>
> So now we know that leavers are very concerned about the coarsening of politics can we expect them to forswear accusations of betrayal and treachery and veiled threats of civil unrest?
>
Nah, all of it is fair game now on both sides. Noone gives a shit what the other side thinks.
Healthy.
Not really. We can't keep shi**ing in each other's bath indefinitely. It's not like normal politics when there's an amount of geographical and work separation between lab and con. It's all-pervasive. Some of the people I work with and some of my family voted leave, some remain (there were some surprises). There is no real prospect of Leavers dropping dead, no matter how fast I build a golden gauntlet and oddly-coloured stones. So unless you want to live in a cellar full of gasoline for the rest of your days, we have to reach some kind of compromise.
Comments
> > @twistedfirestopper3 said:
>
> > > @nico67 said:
>
> > > > @twistedfirestopper3 said:
>
> > > > Bollox to Brexit is great if you really hate people who voted to Leave. Not so great if, as Mr Meeks likes to point out, you want to reach out to the other side. Is it acceptable to say "Fuck the Lib Dems"?
>
> > >
>
> > > The Lib Dems aren’t telling Leave voters to F off ! And bollocks is a lighthearted phrase , it’s really not that strong. And the Lib Dems are trying to get as many Remain votes , an EU election isn’t the time to try and convince Leave voters to change their mind . If people want some waffle and unite the country guff they should look to vote for Labour !
>
> >
>
> > Trouble is, many people will feel that the LDs Are saying Bollox to them personally. I'd never vote LD anyway, so I don't care what they say. But if OGH says it's a plus for them, I ain't gonna argue.
>
>
>
> As a Remainer let’s say a party had Bollocks to Brussels or Bollocks to the EU I wouldn’t take it personally . I think it’s a pretty funny term and not in the least bit offensive .
>
> Bollocks to Brussels
To the contrary , bollocks to the ERG.. Vote LD in the euro elections!
Politics is also adversarial, passionate, emotional and sometimes unpleasant. Someone once called it "a rough trade". It always has been - how much different was "crush the saboteurs"? Not much.
> > @twistedfirestopper3 said:
> > > @Roger said:
> > > > @RobD said:
> > > > > @DavidL said:
> > > > > So here's the state of play at L Towers.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think a good way to ensure that May's deal is eventually signed (because it's probably as good as it gets) is to vote for the Brexit party. A big margin for the Brexit party will send a pretty strong message to those in Westminster. That, and the arrow....
> > >
> > > But you'd have to watch in cringing embarrassment as these fruitcakes take their seats in the European parliament. Things are going to be bad enough for the British service sector after Brexit without our reputation being tarnished further
> >
> > Roger, the fruitcake that will will be voted in will be entirely the fault of people like you continually telling people like me what a thick, racist, xenophobic little Englander I am. I may as well live down to your expectations of me.
>
> You're Britain's finest! Public servants who save lives are forgiven for making eccentric political judgements.
I love you, man xx
> "Bollocks to Brexit" contributes to a coarsening of the political debate.
>
> Of course, the LibDems are not the only ones to have made politics mean-spirited and boorish. But, they have now added their pennyworth to the vast fund of ill-feeling and rudeness.
>
> The losers in all this are the politicians themselves -- it becomes more acceptable to behave rudely to MPs, hence for example the assaults on candidates during the local elections.
>
> And of course, the other loser is politics itself, which should be about ideas and principles, about argument and debate.
>
> I was probably never going to vote LibDem again anyhow, but this is just one more reason not do.
'Bollocks' is word people like using. It rolls off the tongue. 'Brexit' is harsh and ugly like the crackle of a rifle. I can't think of many straplines which tell a story in such a catchy way in three words. Beanz Meanz Heinz eat your heart out!
> "Bollocks to Brexit" contributes to a coarsening of the political debate.
>
>
>
> Of course, the LibDems are not the only ones to have made politics mean-spirited and boorish. But, they have now added their pennyworth to the vast fund of ill-feeling and rudeness.
>
>
>
> The losers in all this are the politicians themselves -- it becomes more acceptable to behave rudely to MPs, hence for example the assaults on candidates during the local elections.
>
>
>
> And of course, the other loser is politics itself, which should be about ideas and principles, about argument and debate.
>
>
>
> I was probably never going to vote LibDem again anyhow, but this is just one more reason not do.
>
> The usual old nonsense rounded off with the salutary "I'm never voting Lib Dem again" - forgive me if I'm not sobbing in a corner somewhere. Seriously? Politics is about trying to reach your supporters - wasting time trying to reach those who aren't going to vote for you may make the individual activist feel better and may enhance the political process but it gets you nowhere.
>
> Politics is also adversarial, passionate, emotional and sometimes unpleasant. Someone once called it "a rough trade". It always has been - how much different was "crush the saboteurs"? Not much.
But it is only one step removed from 'F... the Tories' or 'F... Labour' - or indeed 'the Tories are c....'.
" The usual old nonsense rounded off with the salutary "I'm never voting Lib Dem again" - forgive me if I'm not sobbing in a corner somewhere. Seriously? Politics is about trying to reach your supporters - wasting time trying to reach those who aren't going to vote for you may make the individual activist feel better and may enhance the political process but it gets you nowhere.
Politics is also adversarial, passionate, emotional and sometimes unpleasant. Someone once called it "a rough trade". It always has been - how much different was "crush the saboteurs"? Not much."
I actually voted for Mike Smithson himself once, when he stood as an Oxford Councillor. Of course, if the LibDems are not interested in why one-time supporters drift away, that's fine ....
"Crush the saboteurs" was a headline devised by a not particularly salubrious newspaper, not a political party. It is hardly comparable.
Politics is adversarial, but you have certainly lost the right to complain about the foulness of Trump and Farage if your idea of a well-reasoned argument is "Bollocks to Brexit".
And, I repeat, the main loser is politicians themselves. The coarsening of debate makes it more acceptable to scream obscenities in the faces of candidates, or threaten violence.
> So, quick totting up, it seems to be broadly the case that 'Bollocks To Brexit' as a strap line is viewed as strong and appropriate by Remainers but by Leavers as crass and off putting.
Perhaps it is now fair game to say 'F... the LDs' or 'The LDs are c....'!
> So, quick totting up, it seems to be broadly the case that 'Bollocks To Brexit' as a strap line is viewed as strong and appropriate by Remainers but by Leavers as crass and off putting.
So now we know that leavers are very concerned about the coarsening of politics can we expect them to forswear accusations of betrayal and treachery and veiled threats of civil unrest?
> > @stodge said:
> > "Bollocks to Brexit" contributes to a coarsening of the political debate.
> >
> >
> >
> > Of course, the LibDems are not the only ones to have made politics mean-spirited and boorish. But, they have now added their pennyworth to the vast fund of ill-feeling and rudeness.
> >
> >
> >
> > The losers in all this are the politicians themselves -- it becomes more acceptable to behave rudely to MPs, hence for example the assaults on candidates during the local elections.
> >
> >
> >
> > And of course, the other loser is politics itself, which should be about ideas and principles, about argument and debate.
> >
> >
> >
> > I was probably never going to vote LibDem again anyhow, but this is just one more reason not do.
> >
> > The usual old nonsense rounded off with the salutary "I'm never voting Lib Dem again" - forgive me if I'm not sobbing in a corner somewhere. Seriously? Politics is about trying to reach your supporters - wasting time trying to reach those who aren't going to vote for you may make the individual activist feel better and may enhance the political process but it gets you nowhere.
> >
> > Politics is also adversarial, passionate, emotional and sometimes unpleasant. Someone once called it "a rough trade". It always has been - how much different was "crush the saboteurs"? Not much.
>
> But it is only one step removed from 'F... the Tories' or 'F... Labour' - or indeed 'the Tories are c....'.
There are several terms stronger than bollocks which fall short of the f word though.
> > @kinabalu said:
> > So, quick totting up, it seems to be broadly the case that 'Bollocks To Brexit' as a strap line is viewed as strong and appropriate by Remainers but by Leavers as crass and off putting.
>
> So now we know that leavers are very concerned about the coarsening of politics can we expect them to forswear accusations of betrayal and treachery and veiled threats of civil unrest?
>
Nah, all of it is fair game now on both sides. Noone gives a shit what the other side thinks.
> I have to admit that I'm one Lib Dem who is a bit uneasy about the "Bollocks to Brexit" slogan. I've never liked it. That doesn't mean that I don't think it'll work for us though - it probably will but it's just not my style.
I respectfully tip my hat to you, as you have acknowledged your uneasiness with your own party's behaviour.
Will it work? Perhaps in the very short term (though even then, I'm not completely sure).
In the long term, I expect not, as Remainerdom and Leverstan have to reach a compromise that both can live with.
> > @anothernick said:
> > > @kinabalu said:
> > > So, quick totting up, it seems to be broadly the case that 'Bollocks To Brexit' as a strap line is viewed as strong and appropriate by Remainers but by Leavers as crass and off putting.
> >
> > So now we know that leavers are very concerned about the coarsening of politics can we expect them to forswear accusations of betrayal and treachery and veiled threats of civil unrest?
> >
>
> Nah, all of it is fair game now on both sides. Noone gives a shit what the other side thinks.
The other side thinks?
> I have to admit that I'm one Lib Dem who is a bit uneasy about the "Bollocks to Brexit" slogan. I've never liked it. That doesn't mean that I don't think it'll work for us though - it probably will but it's just not my style.
The danger is you become seen as just a protest party - like the 'Brexit' mob.
Worse still, there's no nuance there - you're just dismissing the EURef.
If 'Bollocks to Brexit' is all the LDs have after 3 years of governmental catastrophe then you need to be quite worried.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMwMKJhaf7A
> Stodge said:
>
> " The usual old nonsense rounded off with the salutary "I'm never voting Lib Dem again" - forgive me if I'm not sobbing in a corner somewhere. Seriously? Politics is about trying to reach your supporters - wasting time trying to reach those who aren't going to vote for you may make the individual activist feel better and may enhance the political process but it gets you nowhere.
>
> Politics is also adversarial, passionate, emotional and sometimes unpleasant. Someone once called it "a rough trade". It always has been - how much different was "crush the saboteurs"? Not much."
>
>
> I actually voted for Mike Smithson himself once, when he stood as an Oxford Councillor. Of course, if the LibDems are not interested in why one-time supporters drift away, that's fine ....
>
> "Crush the saboteurs" was a headline devised by a not particularly salubrious newspaper, not a political party. It is hardly comparable.
>
> Politics is adversarial, but you have certainly lost the right to complain about the foulness of Trump and Farage if your idea of a well-reasoned argument is "Bollocks to Brexit".
>
> And, I repeat, the main loser is politicians themselves. The coarsening of debate makes it more acceptable to scream obscenities in the faces of candidates, or threaten violence.
______________________________________
If we want a slightly less adversarial form of politics, I suggest that after ~150 years of discussing it we adopt PR for the EU elections, also for HoC and local government elections. The 'PR' system imposed by Labour for the EU elections in 1999 is laughable, which is probably why post-Good Friday agreement they dared not use the same system in N. Ireland.
'Proper' PR would give a party with 8% of the vote 0.08 x 73 = 6 MEPs, not 3 or 1.
'Proper' PR would give a party with 11% of the vote 71 MPs, not ~12.
https://twitter.com/haveigotnews/status/1126934743407370241?s=19
Yes, of course, the murder of Jo Cox was terrible as were the murders of Ian Gow and Airey Neave and the attacks on Nigel Jones and Stephen Timms and a catalogue of other events. None of this began on 24/6/16 it has always been at the edge of political discourse.
This is the bearpit - not all the bears play nice - I don't sometimes.
The point is about the survival of democracy itself - those who would threaten whether in the name of "security" or "order" to restrict the franchise or make it harder for people to vote are the real enemies of democracy. There's nothing wrong with plurality - the cacophony is comforting. If you want to join the debate, you are more than welcome but don't expect it to be an afternoon tea party at the vicarage.
> I've got an idea for their first PPB.........
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMwMKJhaf7A
Is that one of your ads Roger?
Holy Heartache, Batman!
> Mrs Browns boys instead.
>
> https://twitter.com/haveigotnews/status/1126934743407370241
>
>
>
> No Heidi?
>
> Holy Heartache, Batman!
Heidi will be Mrs Brown in 20 years
17 years after she left public service
WTAF?
> So Nigel Fucking Farage can appear on the BBC on Thursday and Sunday, but Heidi Allen can't appear on Friday.
>
> WTAF?
Fair point.
Edit - Soubry was also on Question Time so could be argued balance was maintained there.
> > @Roger said:
> > I've got an idea for their first PPB.........
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMwMKJhaf7A
>
> Is that one of your ads Roger?
No. It was shot by Nick Lewin
> https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1126948771009630211
It might be a case of CUK only being seen as a minor party and,therefore, not entitled to coverage beyond a certain level.
> > @Scott_P said:
>
> > https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1126948771009630211
>
>
>
>
>
> It might be a case of CUK only being seen as a minor party and,therefore, not entitled to coverage beyond a certain level.
>
> Postal Votes perhaps?
I don't see Postal Votes being an issue per se - any more than votes cast at polling stations.