This poll is at once hilarious and depressing. The ignorance on display ought to make us think twice about ever having any referendums ever again if this is the state of understanding which abounds amongst the populace despite wall to wall Brexit coverage for months on end.
+1
It is deeply unPC to diss the public - and politicians must NEVER do it, as Hillary found to her cost with her 'basket of deplorables' - but your observation has much merit.
That's not surprising but depressing all the same. The idea that the Conservatives are anti-Brexit is risible. They might well be pursuing a flavour of Brexit that some people don't like, but there should be room for legitimate differences of opinion there without people disagreeing being told that they are anti-Brexit.
This poll is at once hilarious and depressing. The ignorance on display ought to make us think twice about ever having any referendums ever again if this is the state of understanding which abounds amongst the populace despite wall to wall Brexit coverage for months on end.
+1
It is deeply unPC to diss the public - and politicians must NEVER do it, as Hillary found to her cost with her 'basket of deplorables' - but your observation has much merit.
Trouble with the wall to wall coverage is that a lot of people are switching off entirely. Whether they'll switch back on again en masse if there's something, however minimal, they can do I rather doubt.
I wonder if the 21% unable to identify the Brexit party's position on Brexit is a useful proxy indicator for the proportion of people who for practical purposes don't know, or indeed care, anything at all about politics or our civic life.
On the other hand, if you put together 'DK' and 'Neither' a plurality of people opted for them with regard to the position of both Labour and Conservative. So you certainly can't fool all of the people all of the time.
But the 5% who believe that UKIP want to stay in the EU are really special. But how? Is it that they are not all that bright? Is it that they have seen rather deeply into how the politics of grievance really works? Or, terrifyingly, is there something conspiratorial that they know and the rest don't?
This poll is at once hilarious and depressing. The ignorance on display ought to make us think twice about ever having any referendums ever again if this is the state of understanding which abounds amongst the populace despite wall to wall Brexit coverage for months on end.
+1
It is deeply unPC to diss the public - and politicians must NEVER do it, as Hillary found to her cost with her 'basket of deplorables' - but your observation has much merit.
Trouble with the wall to wall coverage is that a lot of people are switching off entirely. Whether they'll switch back on again en masse if there's something, however minimal, they can do I rather doubt.
Perhaps if referenda are used there could be a qualifying quiz before the person was allowed to cast their vote!!
Vodafone Found Hidden Backdoors in Huawei Equipment
Europe’s biggest phone company identified hidden backdoors in the software that could have given Huawei unauthorized access to the carrier’s fixed-line network in Italy, a system that provides internet service to millions of homes and businesses, according to Vodafone’s security briefing documents from 2009 and 2011 seen by Bloomberg, as well as people involved in the situation.
Vodafone asked Huawei to remove backdoors in home internet routers in 2011 and received assurances from the supplier that the issues were fixed, but further testing revealed that the security vulnerabilities remained, the documents show. Vodafone also identified backdoors in parts of its fixed-access network known as optical service nodes, which are responsible for transporting internet traffic over optical fibers, and other parts called broadband network gateways, which handle subscriber authentication and access to the internet, the people said.
And yet still the government are going to let them provide infrastructure.
Do you know why they are doing his? Is there no UK telecom provider up to it?
I assumed it was to keep relationships with China sweet to facilitate a trade deal. I could be way off but I find it inconceivable that no other telecom provider, UK or otherwise has the technology.
Who? Marconi, Racal, Plessey? There are no UK providers any more. That is what happens when politicians drink the free market koolade and buy from foreign suppliers, and allow our companies to be bought out by foreign competitors. Of course, it does not help that often UK management is simply appalling. Same with arms, or computers, or trains.
This poll is at once hilarious and depressing. The ignorance on display ought to make us think twice about ever having any referendums ever again if this is the state of understanding which abounds amongst the populace despite wall to wall Brexit coverage for months on end.
+1
It is deeply unPC to diss the public - and politicians must NEVER do it, as Hillary found to her cost with her 'basket of deplorables' - but your observation has much merit.
Trouble with the wall to wall coverage is that a lot of people are switching off entirely. Whether they'll switch back on again en masse if there's something, however minimal, they can do I rather doubt.
Perhaps if referenda are used there could be a qualifying quiz before the person was allowed to cast their vote!!
Like Churchill said, democracy is the very worst system...apart from all the others.
- Leavers think that BOTH main parties are against them. Easy meat for Farage? - Remainers are also hacked off with the Cons. - Meaning that Leavers AND Remainers are hacked off with the Cons.
Upshot?
Dunno but I will certainly not be closing out my bet (at 4/1) on a Lab overall majority at the next GE.
Vodafone Found Hidden Backdoors in Huawei Equipment
Europe’s biggest phone company identified hidden backdoors in the software that could have given Huawei unauthorized access to the carrier’s fixed-line network in Italy, a system that provides internet service to millions of homes and businesses, according to Vodafone’s security briefing documents from 2009 and 2011 seen by Bloomberg, as well as people involved in the situation.
Vodafone asked Huawei to remove backdoors in home internet routers in 2011 and received assurances from the supplier that the issues were fixed, but further testing revealed that the security vulnerabilities remained, the documents show. Vodafone also identified backdoors in parts of its fixed-access network known as optical service nodes, which are responsible for transporting internet traffic over optical fibers, and other parts called broadband network gateways, which handle subscriber authentication and access to the internet, the people said.
And yet still the government are going to let them provide infrastructure.
Do you know why they are doing his? Is there no UK telecom provider up to it?
I assumed it was to keep relationships with China sweet to facilitate a trade deal. I could be way off but I find it inconceivable that no other telecom provider, UK or otherwise has the technology.
Who? Marconi, Racal, Plessey? There are no UK providers any more. That is what happens when politicians drink the free market koolade and buy from foreign suppliers, and allow our companies to be bought out by foreign competitors. Of course, it does not help that often UK management is simply appalling. Same with arms, or computers, or trains.
Total nonsense. A bit like the crap that people spout about us "not manufacturing anymore". Our companies have always been bought by the furriners and "we" have bought lots of theirs. It is called world trade. UK management is no more appalling than UK workers, who in turn are generally no more appalling than anyone else (though somewhat less productive)
That's not surprising but depressing all the same. The idea that the Conservatives are anti-Brexit is risible. They might well be pursuing a flavour of Brexit that some people don't like, but there should be room for legitimate differences of opinion there without people disagreeing being told that they are anti-Brexit.
What's wrong with people?
If the WA had been passed, I don't doubt that most voters (and most Leavers) would think the Conservatives were pro-Brexit.
It's the postponement of the exit date that has made them think otherwise, and caused the Conservatives' poll ratings to plunge.
Vodafone Found Hidden Backdoors in Huawei Equipment
Europe’s biggest phone company identified hidden backdoors in the software that could have given Huawei unauthorized access to the carrier’s fixed-line network in Italy, a system that provides internet service to millions of homes and businesses, according to Vodafone’s security briefing documents from 2009 and 2011 seen by Bloomberg, as well as people involved in the situation.
Vodafone asked Huawei to remove backdoors in home internet routers in 2011 and received assurances from the supplier that the issues were fixed, but further testing revealed that the security vulnerabilities remained, the documents show. Vodafone also identified backdoors in parts of its fixed-access network known as optical service nodes, which are responsible for transporting internet traffic over optical fibers, and other parts called broadband network gateways, which handle subscriber authentication and access to the internet, the people said.
And yet still the government are going to let them provide infrastructure.
Do you know why they are doing his? Is there no UK telecom provider up to it?
I assumed it was to keep relationships with China sweet to facilitate a trade deal. I could be way off but I find it inconceivable that no other telecom provider, UK or otherwise has the technology.
Who? Marconi, Racal, Plessey? There are no UK providers any more. That is what happens when politicians drink the free market koolade and buy from foreign suppliers, and allow our companies to be bought out by foreign competitors. Of course, it does not help that often UK management is simply appalling. Same with arms, or computers, or trains.
Total nonsense. A bit like the crap that people spout about us "not manufacturing anymore". Our companies have always been bought by the furriners and "we" have bought lots of theirs. It is called world trade. UK management is no more appalling than UK workers, who in turn are generally no more appalling than anyone else (though somewhat less productive)
Are you posting from a British-made computer or phone?
To be fair, the DKs are probably on the money with Lab, and possibly also Con
Yes, it's the first ever election where both Tory and Labour are wasted votes, as no-one will know what you mean, and when people guess you probably won't like it.
Turnout will be 50% or below, and the clueless will mostly be in the half that stays at home.
I am sure some of the straplines will clarify things - for example the LibDems will stand as Liberal Democrats: Stop Brexit
Yes, if you look at the views of those who are 8-10 likely to vote in the EU elections, then they are considerably better informed about parties' stances.
That's not surprising but depressing all the same. The idea that the Conservatives are anti-Brexit is risible. They might well be pursuing a flavour of Brexit that some people don't like, but there should be room for legitimate differences of opinion there without people disagreeing being told that they are anti-Brexit.
What's wrong with people?
If the WA had been passed, I don't doubt that most voters (and most Leavers) would think the Conservatives were pro-Brexit.
It's the postponement of the exit date that has made them think otherwise, and caused the Conservatives' poll ratings to plunge.
This poll is at once hilarious and depressing. The ignorance on display ought to make us think twice about ever having any referendums ever again if this is the state of understanding which abounds amongst the populace despite wall to wall Brexit coverage for months on end.
+1
It is deeply unPC to diss the public - and politicians must NEVER do it, as Hillary found to her cost with her 'basket of deplorables' - but your observation has much merit.
I find it inconceivable that the events since the referendum have shown that our politicians and civil servants have any greater competence or expertise than the electorate. No other referendum in U.K. history - continued EEC membership, AV, Scottish Independence - has created the chaos this one has but then those results were always accepted, which this one clearly hasn’t been.
That's not surprising but depressing all the same. The idea that the Conservatives are anti-Brexit is risible. They might well be pursuing a flavour of Brexit that some people don't like, but there should be room for legitimate differences of opinion there without people disagreeing being told that they are anti-Brexit.
What's wrong with people?
If the WA had been passed, I don't doubt that most voters (and most Leavers) would think the Conservatives were pro-Brexit.
It's the postponement of the exit date that has made them think otherwise, and caused the Conservatives' poll ratings to plunge.
Most people don't follow politics that closely.
The headline for the politically non engaged is LEAVE won and we haven't left. Every politician in the HofC is tarred by that brush
If the EU elections take place, I shall vote Labour on 23rd May - but my voting intention will in no way be influenced by Brexit!
And in other news, the Pope is still catholic.
But at the General Election , I will spoil my ballot paper!
Sorry I've not followed this but is that because of Corbyn?
Not at all . I am not a Corbynite but my spoilt ballot paper relates to my firm refusal to support a Gender vetted candidate. I live in a key marginal and have to date persuaded three other voters to do likewise. Chloe Smith ,therefore, has some reason to be grateful to me!
Trouble with the wall to wall coverage is that a lot of people are switching off entirely. Whether they'll switch back on again en masse if there's something, however minimal, they can do I rather doubt.
Yes, and unsurprising. I am a maniac for this stuff but even I have found myself getting bored by Brexit recently. Certainly a bit jaded.
The other day there was a TV clash, on the rolling news Barry Gardiner (one of my real favourites) expounding on what a 'confirmatory referendum' meant and did not mean, and on Eurosport the opening salvos of a snooker match between John Higgins and Stuart Bingham.
I went with Gardiner (and I'm glad I did, he nailed it) but it was not the no-brainer it would normally have been.
That's not surprising but depressing all the same. The idea that the Conservatives are anti-Brexit is risible. They might well be pursuing a flavour of Brexit that some people don't like, but there should be room for legitimate differences of opinion there without people disagreeing being told that they are anti-Brexit.
What's wrong with people?
If the WA had been passed, I don't doubt that most voters (and most Leavers) would think the Conservatives were pro-Brexit.
It's the postponement of the exit date that has made them think otherwise, and caused the Conservatives' poll ratings to plunge.
If the EU elections take place, I shall vote Labour on 23rd May - but my voting intention will in no way be influenced by Brexit!
And in other news, the Pope is still catholic.
But at the General Election , I will spoil my ballot paper!
Sorry I've not followed this but is that because of Corbyn?
Not at all . I am not a Corbynite but my spoilt ballot paper relates to my firm refusal to support a Gender vetted candidate. I live in a key marginal and have to date persuaded three other voters to do likewise. Chloe Smith ,therefore, has some reason to be grateful to me!
To be fair, the DKs are probably on the money with Lab, and possibly also Con
Yes, it's the first ever election where both Tory and Labour are wasted votes, as no-one will know what you mean, and when people guess you probably won't like it.
That's a good point too. Do I vote Conservative, because I am in favour of the WA. or Brexit Party, to show that I'm in favour of Brexit?
Trouble with the wall to wall coverage is that a lot of people are switching off entirely. Whether they'll switch back on again en masse if there's something, however minimal, they can do I rather doubt.
Yes, and unsurprising. I am a maniac for this stuff but even I have found myself getting bored by Brexit recently. Certainly a bit jaded.
The other day there was a TV clash, on the rolling news Barry Gardiner (one of my real favourites) expounding on what a 'confirmatory referendum' meant and did not mean, and on Eurosport the opening salvos of a snooker match between John Higgins and Stuart Bingham.
I went with Gardiner (and I'm glad I did, he nailed it) but it was not the no-brainer it would normally have been.
Stuart Bingham played one of the weirdest set of frames Ive ever seen against Graeme Dott. beat the politcs by miles.
Vodafone Found Hidden Backdoors in Huawei Equipment
Europe’s biggest phone company identified hidden backdoors in the software that could have given Huawei unauthorized access to the carrier’s fixed-line network in Italy, a system that provides internet service to millions of homes and businesses, according to Vodafone’s security briefing documents from 2009 and 2011 seen by Bloomberg, as well as people involved in the situation.
Vodafone asked Huawei to remove backdoors in home internet routers in 2011 and received assurances from the supplier that the issues were fixed, but further testing revealed that the security vulnerabilities remained, the documents show. Vodafone also identified backdoors in parts of its fixed-access network known as optical service nodes, which are responsible for transporting internet traffic over optical fibers, and other parts called broadband network gateways, which handle subscriber authentication and access to the internet, the people said.
And yet still the government are going to let them provide infrastructure.
If you barred every supplier who ever had an old Telnet, SSH, or other management service left over you wouldn't be able to buy anything from anyone. Calling it a backdoor is really stretching the term to breaking point.
To be fair, the DKs are probably on the money with Lab, and possibly also Con
Yes, it's the first ever election where both Tory and Labour are wasted votes, as no-one will know what you mean, and when people guess you probably won't like it.
That's a good point too. Do I vote Conservative, because I am in favour of the WA. or Brexit Party, to show that I'm in favour of Brexit?
I expect the residual Tory vote will mostly be soft Remainers like my mother, sticking with the party through loyalty, who then see themselves interpreted as Brexiters by the media
The headline for the politically non engaged is LEAVE won and we haven't left. Every politician in the HofC is tarred by that brush
Leave did NOT win.
We must get away from this adversarial language. If you say that Leave 'won', it implies that LeaveRS won, therefore that Remainers lost, and by extension that Remainers (who are people remember) are LOSERS.
No. Enough of that. Let's keep things civil and correct.
Vodafone Found Hidden Backdoors in Huawei Equipment
Europe’s biggest phone company identified hidden backdoors in the software that could have given Huawei unauthorized access to the carrier’s fixed-line network in Italy, a system that provides internet service to millions of homes and businesses, according to Vodafone’s security briefing documents from 2009 and 2011 seen by Bloomberg, as well as people involved in the situation.
Vodafone asked Huawei to remove backdoors in home internet routers in 2011 and received assurances from the supplier that the issues were fixed, but further testing revealed that the security vulnerabilities remained, the documents show. Vodafone also identified backdoors in parts of its fixed-access network known as optical service nodes, which are responsible for transporting internet traffic over optical fibers, and other parts called broadband network gateways, which handle subscriber authentication and access to the internet, the people said.
And yet still the government are going to let them provide infrastructure.
If you barred every supplier who ever had an old Telnet, SSH, or other management service left over you wouldn't be able to buy anything from anyone. Calling it a backdoor is really stretching the term to breaking point.
One irony is that American comms suppliers were required to grant backdoors to the US government. Otoh, they are supposed to be on our side.
I wonder if the 21% unable to identify the Brexit party's position on Brexit is a useful proxy indicator for the proportion of people who for practical purposes don't know, or indeed care, anything at all about politics or our civic life.
On the other hand, if you put together 'DK' and 'Neither' a plurality of people opted for them with regard to the position of both Labour and Conservative. So you certainly can't fool all of the people all of the time.
But the 5% who believe that UKIP want to stay in the EU are really special. But how? Is it that they are not all that bright? Is it that they have seen rather deeply into how the politics of grievance really works? Or, terrifyingly, is there something conspiratorial that they know and the rest don't?
Probably all they know about UKIP is that when they are on TV they are always talking about Europe?
I assumed it was to keep relationships with China sweet to facilitate a trade deal. I could be way off but I find it inconceivable that no other telecom provider, UK or otherwise has the technology.
There aren't many companies that offer a comprehensive range of cellular hardware and services, with 5G ready to launch. There has been a lot of consolidation over the 3G, 4G generations, and now we are left with Nokia, Ericsson, Samsung, Huawei and ZTE.
Huawei's hardware seems to be very competitive, it's their software engineering that is letting them down.
The headline for the politically non engaged is LEAVE won and we haven't left. Every politician in the HofC is tarred by that brush
Leave did NOT win.
We must get away from this adversarial language. If you say that Leave 'won', it implies that LeaveRS won, therefore that Remainers lost, and by extension that Remainers (who are people remember) are LOSERS.
No. Enough of that. Let's keep things civil and correct.
Like most commentators he is approaching the question from the wrong end, trying to work out what Labour will do. Labour is focused on what it can say that keeps both leavers and Remainers from jumping ship.
The headline for the politically non engaged is LEAVE won and we haven't left. Every politician in the HofC is tarred by that brush
Leave did NOT win.
We must get away from this adversarial language. If you say that Leave 'won', it implies that LeaveRS won, therefore that Remainers lost, and by extension that Remainers (who are people remember) are LOSERS.
No. Enough of that. Let's keep things civil and correct.
The country voted to Leave.
Leave did not win - as we haven't left.
The country voted for leave - but our benevolent MPs have decided not to proceed.
I’m more confused by the 17% of Conservative VI and 15% of Labour VI who still intend to vote for these parties in the EP election despite admitting to not knowing what their positions are...
The headline for the politically non engaged is LEAVE won and we haven't left. Every politician in the HofC is tarred by that brush
Leave did NOT win.
We must get away from this adversarial language. If you say that Leave 'won', it implies that LeaveRS won, therefore that Remainers lost, and by extension that Remainers (who are people remember) are LOSERS.
No. Enough of that. Let's keep things civil and correct.
The country voted to Leave.
Leave did not win - as we haven't left.
The country voted for leave - but our benevolent MPs have decided not to proceed.
With those most keen to leave least keen to vote for it.
The headline for the politically non engaged is LEAVE won and we haven't left. Every politician in the HofC is tarred by that brush
Leave did NOT win.
We must get away from this adversarial language. If you say that Leave 'won', it implies that LeaveRS won, therefore that Remainers lost, and by extension that Remainers (who are people remember) are LOSERS.
No. Enough of that. Let's keep things civil and correct.
The country voted to Leave.
Leave did not win - as we haven't left.
The country voted for leave - but our benevolent MPs have decided not to proceed.
With those most keen to leave least keen to vote for it.
Do their votes count any more or less ?
The government governs - and the PM leads the government.
She has failed at every step - and the voters are about to use their votes at every opportunity to let her know what they think of her performance.
I find it inconceivable that the events since the referendum have shown that our politicians and civil servants have any greater competence or expertise than the electorate. No other referendum in U.K. history - continued EEC membership, AV, Scottish Independence - has created the chaos this one has but then those results were always accepted, which this one clearly hasn’t been.
It's a mess, no question, and I don't see things improving. My 10 pence worth of weighty pontificating for this afternoon is as follows:
It is important to separate the leaders of Brexit from those who voted for it. A glance at the leaders demonstrates beyond a doubt that it is a project of the Tory right wing.
As regards the voters, the notion of a howl of rage from an alienated working class in grimy towns north of Watford Gap is a caricature. Ignoring the separate countries that are London and Scotland, approximately 70% of constituencies were for Leave. An election on FPTP would have been a Leave landslide. And that is with most agnostics voting Remain. 52/48 makes it seem close but it really was not.
So, who are the Leavers? The country are Leavers. England wants to leave the European Union. It really really does. We are Leave Nation. Least in 2016 we were.
But are 17m of us in tune with the ideas and values and aspirations of the project sponsors, the hard reactionary right wing of the Tory Party?
No, not even close. In project management speak, what we have here is a gaping disconnect between stakeholders and sponsors. We also have incompetent line management (May & Co) but that is a second order problem.
This is why the project - Brexit - is fatally flawed. It is essentially a con and thus doomed to fail.
The question is - and the jury is not even out yet on this - will it be implemented and fail, or will it fail to be implemented?
The headline for the politically non engaged is LEAVE won and we haven't left. Every politician in the HofC is tarred by that brush
Leave did NOT win.
We must get away from this adversarial language. If you say that Leave 'won', it implies that LeaveRS won, therefore that Remainers lost, and by extension that Remainers (who are people remember) are LOSERS.
No. Enough of that. Let's keep things civil and correct.
The country voted to Leave.
Leave did not win - as we haven't left.
The country voted for leave - but our benevolent MPs have decided not to proceed.
With those most keen to leave least keen to vote for it.
Do their votes count any more or less ?
The government governs - and the PM leads the government.
She has failed at every step - and the voters are about to use their votes at every opportunity to let her know what they think of her performance.
Well I am sitting in early evening Alpine sunshine enjoying a fine meal watching the sun slip toward the mountains with my dog at my side, raising a toast to the ERG and their DUP friends, thanks to whom it is still easy to go on holiday in Europe with your pet.
The headline for the politically non engaged is LEAVE won and we haven't left. Every politician in the HofC is tarred by that brush
Leave did NOT win.
We must get away from this adversarial language. If you say that Leave 'won', it implies that LeaveRS won, therefore that Remainers lost, and by extension that Remainers (who are people remember) are LOSERS.
No. Enough of that. Let's keep things civil and correct.
The country voted to Leave.
Leave did not win - as we haven't left.
The country voted for leave - but our benevolent MPs have decided not to proceed.
With those most keen to leave least keen to vote for it.
Do their votes count any more or less ?
The government governs - and the PM leads the government.
She has failed at every step - and the voters are about to use their votes at every opportunity to let her know what they think of her performance.
Well I am sitting in early evening Alpine sunshine enjoying a fine meal watching the sun slip toward the mountains with my dog at my side, raising a toast to the ERG and their DUP friends, thanks to whom it is still easy to go on holiday in Europe with your pet.
You should be very happy - Mrs May has destroyed the Conservative party with her ineptitude.
Things are so bad that Labour could win power with an equally inept and deluded leader of their own.
The headline for the politically non engaged is LEAVE won and we haven't left. Every politician in the HofC is tarred by that brush
Leave did NOT win.
We must get away from this adversarial language. If you say that Leave 'won', it implies that LeaveRS won, therefore that Remainers lost, and by extension that Remainers (who are people remember) are LOSERS.
No. Enough of that. Let's keep things civil and correct.
The country voted to Leave.
Leave did not win - as we haven't left.
The country voted for leave - but our benevolent MPs have decided not to proceed.
With those most keen to leave least keen to vote for it.
Do their votes count any more or less ?
The government governs - and the PM leads the government.
She has failed at every step - and the voters are about to use their votes at every opportunity to let her know what they think of her performance.
Well I am sitting in early evening Alpine sunshine enjoying a fine meal watching the sun slip toward the mountains with my dog at my side, raising a toast to the ERG and their DUP friends, thanks to whom it is still easy to go on holiday in Europe with your pet.
You should be very happy - Mrs May has destroyed the Conservative party with her ineptitude.
Things are so bad that Labour could win power with an equally inept and deluded leader of their own.
Ironically Mrs May appear to regard the Conservative and Unionist Party as more important than the country.
The headline for the politically non engaged is LEAVE won and we haven't left. Every politician in the HofC is tarred by that brush
Leave did NOT win.
We must get away from this adversarial language. If you say that Leave 'won', it implies that LeaveRS won, therefore that Remainers lost, and by extension that Remainers (who are people remember) are LOSERS.
No. Enough of that. Let's keep things civil and correct.
The country voted to Leave.
Leave did not win - as we haven't left.
The country voted for leave - but our benevolent MPs have decided not to proceed.
With those most keen to leave least keen to vote for it.
Do their votes count any more or less ?
The government governs - and the PM leads the government.
She has failed at every step - and the voters are about to use their votes at every opportunity to let her know what they think of her performance.
Well I am sitting in early evening Alpine sunshine enjoying a fine meal watching the sun slip toward the mountains with my dog at my side, raising a toast to the ERG and their DUP friends, thanks to whom it is still easy to go on holiday in Europe with your pet.
You should be very happy - Mrs May has destroyed the Conservative party with her ineptitude.
Things are so bad that Labour could win power with an equally inept and deluded leader of their own.
All the Tories I know are so obsessed with achieving some sort of hard Brexit that they are incapable of doing any good for the country. I'd love a return to sensible moderate government, but if the only alternative is Corbynism, so be it.
This is a gift to Change UK and the Lib Dems . Wouldn’t be surprised to see more resignations from Labour .
It’s quite something to ignore the now 75% of Labour Remainers and vast majority of members to go chasing an ever shrinking Labour Leave vote .
Conference will be a blood bath over this in the autumn.
It’s amazing when you think about it. It’s like Corbyn and his cronies fail to have seen a single poll in the last 18 months . YouGov now barely manages to get 20% of Labour voters saying Leave was the right decision . Even in Labour Leave seats the majority voted Remain .
Labour deserve to get trounced in the EU elections , and hopefully this could have some effect on the locals . Corbyn and his lexiteteer cabal need to be removed .
Yes, if you look at the views of those who are 8-10 likely to vote in the EU elections, then they are considerably better informed about parties' stances.
If so - and I bet it is so - that mitigates against the Euros being a good proxy for Ref2.
For example, the Remain heavy 'cognescenti' around here (NW3) will be knocking over the crepe van in their haste to get down to the polling station and vote.
Whereas that will not be so much the case for the Leave heavy 'men and women with much better things to worry about than politics' in, say, Doncaster.
This is a gift to Change UK and the Lib Dems . Wouldn’t be surprised to see more resignations from Labour .
It’s quite something to ignore the now 75% of Labour Remainers and vast majority of members to go chasing an ever shrinking Labour Leave vote .
Conference will be a blood bath over this in the autumn.
It’s amazing when you think about it. It’s like Corbyn and his cronies fail to have seen a single poll in the last 18 months . YouGov now barely manages to get 20% of Labour voters saying Leave was the right decision . Even in Labour Leave seats the majority voted Remain .
Labour deserve to get trounced in the EU elections , and hopefully this could have some effect on the locals . Corbyn and his lexiteteer cabal need to be removed .
They are leading the polls, Labour voters will not desert them. The remainers are broadly racked up in very safe seats in urban areas. If they wish to win a general election its important not to piss off leave voters in Tory marginals because there will few very few Tory remainers willing to vote for Corbyn. It's pretty straightforward that their non committal stance is working and luckily for anyone hoping for a Labour government not all MPs are as stupid as Tom Watson.
This is a gift to Change UK and the Lib Dems . Wouldn’t be surprised to see more resignations from Labour .
It’s quite something to ignore the now 75% of Labour Remainers and vast majority of members to go chasing an ever shrinking Labour Leave vote .
Conference will be a blood bath over this in the autumn.
It’s amazing when you think about it. It’s like Corbyn and his cronies fail to have seen a single poll in the last 18 months . YouGov now barely manages to get 20% of Labour voters saying Leave was the right decision . Even in Labour Leave seats the majority voted Remain .
Labour deserve to get trounced in the EU elections , and hopefully this could have some effect on the locals . Corbyn and his lexiteteer cabal need to be removed .
Of course they can read polls. They can see that the Conservative Party has completely lost its marbles, and is committing political suicide, so they are waiting for a hard Brexit which will destroy the Conservative Party completely. Alternatively, things might just drag on, which also destroys the Conservative Party. Since they want Brexit, and want as much chaos as possible, why should they change tack?
Ian Dunt is a blogger with zero influence. Truth is Labour are neck and neck with The Brexit Party because plenty of remain voters understand the EU voting system and Change UK are a lost cause. Not everyone will be a remain at all costs zealot, sometimes you need to look at the bigger picture.
This is a gift to Change UK and the Lib Dems . Wouldn’t be surprised to see more resignations from Labour .
It’s quite something to ignore the now 75% of Labour Remainers and vast majority of members to go chasing an ever shrinking Labour Leave vote.
You say that - fudge - but what is wrong with staying flexible unless and until there is a pre Brexit GE, and at that point doing the pivot to Ref/Remain if the calculation is that it would help them win?
Bottom line is Labour cannot deliver a Ref unless they get into power. So the best policy is the one which maximizes the chance of that happening. Which is this policy.
This is a gift to Change UK and the Lib Dems . Wouldn’t be surprised to see more resignations from Labour .
It’s quite something to ignore the now 75% of Labour Remainers and vast majority of members to go chasing an ever shrinking Labour Leave vote .
Conference will be a blood bath over this in the autumn.
It’s amazing when you think about it. It’s like Corbyn and his cronies fail to have seen a single poll in the last 18 months . YouGov now barely manages to get 20% of Labour voters saying Leave was the right decision . Even in Labour Leave seats the majority voted Remain .
Labour deserve to get trounced in the EU elections , and hopefully this could have some effect on the locals . Corbyn and his lexiteteer cabal need to be removed .
Labour are treating the public as fools claiming they are for remain and leave. Each of those positions are non negotiable hence the mess we are in
As far as your last sentence is concerned it would be a huge moment for the country and no doubt a labour government would win a GE easily. Indeed I would expect Brexit to die on the embers of Corbyn's demise
I find it inconceivable that the events since the referendum have shown that our politicians and civil servants have any greater competence or expertise than the electorate. No other referendum in U.K. history - continued EEC membership, AV, Scottish Independence - has created the chaos this one has but then those results were always accepted, which this one clearly hasn’t been.
It's a mess, no question, and I don't see things improving. My 10 pence worth of weighty pontificating for this afternoon is as follows:
It is important to separate the leaders of Brexit from those who voted for it. A glance at the leaders demonstrates beyond a doubt that it is a project of the Tory right wing.
As regards the voters, the notion of a howl of rage from an alienated working class in grimy towns north of Watford Gap is a caricature. Ignoring the separate countries that are London and Scotland, approximately 70% of constituencies were for Leave. An election on FPTP would have been a Leave landslide. And that is with most agnostics voting Remain. 52/48 makes it seem close but it really was not.
The question is - and the jury is not even out yet on this - will it be implemented and fail, or will it fail to be implemented?
I see things differently. A look at the areas that voted Leave - North East, Birmingham, Grimsby etc- are solid Labour voting areas, as is Wales which also voted Leave. Add to those all the Tories who voted Leave and what you have is a country for whom EU membership didn’t work for too many people. Those who voted Leave had very different reasons - sovereignty, immigration, sending a message that EU membership did work, not wanting to part of a United States of Europe - butwe voted to Leave.
The Tories gave a clear vision in 2017 of what Leave meant, lost their majority, but not because of Brexit but still ended up in power. Labour were always ambivalent needing to keep seats where both Remain and Leave voters were in the majority so their 2017 campaign virtually ignored Brexit.
TheTories walked away from their manifesto as soon as negotiations began and Labour have continued to be ambivalent. As a result, and with nothing else getting a look in on the political agenda, it’s chaos.
Whatever happens on Brexit, I think the basis of two predominant broad church parties has been destroyed. We’ll end up with smaller, narrower parties and continual coalition probably via PR. On Brexit, the chance for a negotiated agreement has been lost. Labour and the Tories are not going to agree a plan around May’s deal. The country has a binary choice - no deal or no Brexit. I wouldn’t be surprised either way on that but either will provoke some degree of civil unrest, at least initially.
Ian Dunt is a blogger with zero influence. Truth is Labour are neck and neck with The Brexit Party because plenty of remain voters understand the EU voting system and Change UK are a lost cause. Not everyone will be a remain at all costs zealot, sometimes you need to look at the bigger picture.
Amazing tweet from Dunt. Unrecognisable by the lack of bad language
What does option of a public vote mean . If you’ve exhausted everything else what other options could there be.
They could have at least strengthened the language to just say they’d simply support the public vote .
It's working a treat though despite what the FBPE crowd are demanding. There is no need for Labour to change direction - The Lib Dems and Change are barely registering in the polling. Perhaps if those who said they were boycotting Labour actually meant it we'd have a different story.
To be fair, the DKs are probably on the money with Lab, and possibly also Con
Yes, it's the first ever election where both Tory and Labour are wasted votes, as no-one will know what you mean, and when people guess you probably won't like it.
That's a good point too. Do I vote Conservative, because I am in favour of the WA. or Brexit Party, to show that I'm in favour of Brexit?
I’m in the same position. Inclined to vote Brexit to show that we want to leave and assume it will stiffen the government’s sinews.
The result was clear, it is the language I am objecting to. Talk of 'winners' and 'losers' makes it more difficult for the country to be brought back together.
- I voted Remain but we lost. - We voted to Leave, although I personally did not.
Just a hint of getting your excuses in early? The vast majority may know little and care less about the subtleties of each party's position on Brexit but they aren't going to vote anyway. Those that do will be more committed and more knowledgeable.
The headline for the politically non engaged is LEAVE won and we haven't left. Every politician in the HofC is tarred by that brush
Leave did NOT win.
We must get away from this adversarial language. If you say that Leave 'won', it implies that LeaveRS won, therefore that Remainers lost, and by extension that Remainers (who are people remember) are LOSERS.
No. Enough of that. Let's keep things civil and correct.
The country voted to Leave.
Leave did not win - as we haven't left.
The country voted for leave - but our benevolent MPs have decided not to proceed.
With those most keen to leave least keen to vote for it.
Do their votes count any more or less ?
The government governs - and the PM leads the government.
She has failed at every step - and the voters are about to use their votes at every opportunity to let her know what they think of her performance.
Well I am sitting in early evening Alpine sunshine enjoying a fine meal watching the sun slip toward the mountains with my dog at my side, raising a toast to the ERG and their DUP friends, thanks to whom it is still easy to go on holiday in Europe with your pet.
You should be very happy - Mrs May has destroyed the Conservative party with her ineptitude.
Things are so bad that Labour could win power with an equally inept and deluded leader of their own.
All the Tories I know are so obsessed with achieving some sort of hard Brexit that they are incapable of doing any good for the country. I'd love a return to sensible moderate government, but if the only alternative is Corbynism, so be it.
It seems a bit early to be drawing conclusions such as this one. There's just under a month to go to the election date (when is the last date that it could be called off, by the way?).
And if CHUK are polling at 10% and only 38% know what their position on Brexit is, that gives them plenty of upside yet, especially if the Remain-supporting public decides that they are the vehicle of choice for this election.
Remain voters either have to get CHUK, the Lib Dems, and Greens all on 10%+ to maximise representation (probably at the expense of Labour) or back one party in droves to deliver an unambiguous message.
Any possibility that all three get zero seats? That would certainly be an enjoyable outcome.
I would not greet it with the same unalloyed pleasure as you, but yes that's entirely possible. It is impossible to have 100% proportional representation without the same number of seats as voters. Since that is impracticable we reduce the number of seats and as the number of seats reduces the less proportional it becomes. That has the same effect as a threshold: if your vote falls under a certain amount it won't get any seats. ChUK, LD and Green would get more seats if they stood as one list (assuming the votes are the same) than if they stood separately.
What does option of a public vote mean . If you’ve exhausted everything else what other options could there be.
They could have at least strengthened the language to just say they’d simply support the public vote .
If you are on the far left, ambivalent about Brexit, and know that under "normal" circumstances the country will not vote for a far left government then Corbyn's policy, however annoying to the moderates in Labour or the rest of the country seems to be working exactly as intended. Far from pathetic, unfortunately.
The result was clear, it is the language I am objecting to. Talk of 'winners' and 'losers' makes it more difficult for the country to be brought back together.
- I voted Remain but we lost. - We voted to Leave, although I personally did not.
Such a difference there.
You are entirely right but most of the country are not yet in the mindset for bringing us back together.
What does option of a public vote mean . If you’ve exhausted everything else what other options could there be.
They could have at least strengthened the language to just say they’d simply support the public vote.
No it's solid gold. Stay flexible unless and until there is a pre Brexit general election. At that point, offer Ref2 if it works electorally.
Only way Labour can deliver a Ref is if they get into power. And the mirror sentiment is also true - the only way a Ref is deliverable is via a Labour government.
So let's go with the policy that maximizes the chance of that. This one.
What does option of a public vote mean . If you’ve exhausted everything else what other options could there be.
They could have at least strengthened the language to just say they’d simply support the public vote.
No it's solid gold. Stay flexible unless and until there is a pre Brexit general election. At that point, offer Ref2 if it works electorally.
Only way Labour can deliver a Ref is if they get into power. And the mirror sentiment is also true - the only way a Ref is deliverable is via a Labour government.
So let's go with the policy that maximizes the chance of that. This one.
Yougov had Labour plunging to just 15% in the European Parliament elections, tied with the Tories and a surging LDs if it does not commit to a public vote and sticks with its Brexit plus Customs Union policy.
Comments
It is deeply unPC to diss the public - and politicians must NEVER do it, as Hillary found to her cost with her 'basket of deplorables' - but your observation has much merit.
What's wrong with people?
On the other hand, if you put together 'DK' and 'Neither' a plurality of people opted for them with regard to the position of both Labour and Conservative. So you certainly can't fool all of the people all of the time.
But the 5% who believe that UKIP want to stay in the EU are really special. But how? Is it that they are not all that bright? Is it that they have seen rather deeply into how the politics of grievance really works? Or, terrifyingly, is there something conspiratorial that they know and the rest don't?
56% of Con remainers are pro-Brexit
but only 23% of Con leavers are pro-Brexit????????
Presumably they think the WA doesn't constitute Brexit.
- Leavers think that BOTH main parties are against them. Easy meat for Farage?
- Remainers are also hacked off with the Cons.
- Meaning that Leavers AND Remainers are hacked off with the Cons.
Upshot?
Dunno but I will certainly not be closing out my bet (at 4/1) on a Lab overall majority at the next GE.
It's the postponement of the exit date that has made them think otherwise, and caused the Conservatives' poll ratings to plunge.
Most people don't follow politics that closely.
Turnout will be 50% or below, and the clueless will mostly be in the half that stays at home.
I am sure some of the straplines will clarify things - for example the LibDems will stand as Liberal Democrats: Stop Brexit
The other day there was a TV clash, on the rolling news Barry Gardiner (one of my real favourites) expounding on what a 'confirmatory referendum' meant and did not mean, and on Eurosport the opening salvos of a snooker match between John Higgins and Stuart Bingham.
I went with Gardiner (and I'm glad I did, he nailed it) but it was not the no-brainer it would normally have been.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r_BGWBrvhI
We must get away from this adversarial language. If you say that Leave 'won', it implies that LeaveRS won, therefore that Remainers lost, and by extension that Remainers (who are people remember) are LOSERS.
No. Enough of that. Let's keep things civil and correct.
The country voted to Leave.
https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1123254928934363136
Huawei's hardware seems to be very competitive, it's their software engineering that is letting them down.
The country voted for leave - but our benevolent MPs have decided not to proceed.
The government governs - and the PM leads the government.
She has failed at every step - and the voters are about to use their votes at every opportunity to let her know what they think of her performance.
This is a gift to Change UK and the Lib Dems . Wouldn’t be surprised to see more resignations from Labour .
It’s quite something to ignore the now 75% of Labour Remainers and vast majority of members to go chasing an ever shrinking Labour Leave vote .
It is important to separate the leaders of Brexit from those who voted for it. A glance at the leaders demonstrates beyond a doubt that it is a project of the Tory right wing.
As regards the voters, the notion of a howl of rage from an alienated working class in grimy towns north of Watford Gap is a caricature. Ignoring the separate countries that are London and Scotland, approximately 70% of constituencies were for Leave. An election on FPTP would have been a Leave landslide. And that is with most agnostics voting Remain. 52/48 makes it seem close but it really was not.
So, who are the Leavers? The country are Leavers. England wants to leave the European Union. It really really does. We are Leave Nation. Least in 2016 we were.
But are 17m of us in tune with the ideas and values and aspirations of the project sponsors, the hard reactionary right wing of the Tory Party?
No, not even close. In project management speak, what we have here is a gaping disconnect between stakeholders and sponsors. We also have incompetent line management (May & Co) but that is a second order problem.
This is why the project - Brexit - is fatally flawed. It is essentially a con and thus doomed to fail.
The question is - and the jury is not even out yet on this - will it be implemented and fail, or will it fail to be implemented?
Remainers know what to do on Thursday and later in May.
Things are so bad that Labour could win power with an equally inept and deluded leader of their own.
http://www.ansa.it/canale_terraegusto/notizie/in_breve/2019/04/29/mi-mette-il-parmigiano-sul-pesce-ma-lo-chef-si-rifiuta_5d05b448-db7e-48e5-a52f-44293b3dfd4f.html
Labour deserve to get trounced in the EU elections , and hopefully this could have some effect on the locals . Corbyn and his lexiteteer cabal need to be removed .
For example, the Remain heavy 'cognescenti' around here (NW3) will be knocking over the crepe van in their haste to get down to the polling station and vote.
Whereas that will not be so much the case for the Leave heavy 'men and women with much better things to worry about than politics' in, say, Doncaster.
Although one mustn't generalize.
Bottom line is Labour cannot deliver a Ref unless they get into power. So the best policy is the one which maximizes the chance of that happening. Which is this policy.
As far as your last sentence is concerned it would be a huge moment for the country and no doubt a labour government would win a GE easily. Indeed I would expect Brexit to die on the embers of Corbyn's demise
The Tories gave a clear vision in 2017 of what Leave meant, lost their majority, but not because of Brexit but still ended up in power. Labour were always ambivalent needing to keep seats where both Remain and Leave voters were in the majority so their 2017 campaign virtually ignored Brexit.
TheTories walked away from their manifesto as soon as negotiations began and Labour have continued to be ambivalent. As a result, and with nothing else getting a look in on the political agenda, it’s chaos.
Whatever happens on Brexit, I think the basis of two predominant broad church parties has been destroyed. We’ll end up with smaller, narrower parties and continual coalition probably via PR. On Brexit, the chance for a negotiated agreement has been lost. Labour and the Tories are not going to agree a plan around May’s deal. The country has a binary choice - no deal or no Brexit. I wouldn’t be surprised either way on that but either will provoke some degree of civil unrest, at least initially.
What does option of a public vote mean . If you’ve exhausted everything else what other options could there be.
They could have at least strengthened the language to just say they’d simply support the public vote .
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1123263699668676608
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1123263701686149120
- I voted Remain but we lost.
- We voted to Leave, although I personally did not.
Such a difference there.
Only way Labour can deliver a Ref is if they get into power. And the mirror sentiment is also true - the only way a Ref is deliverable is via a Labour government.
So let's go with the policy that maximizes the chance of that. This one.
The Brexit Party would still be first though
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/brexit-party-leads-the-polls-ahead-of-eu-elections-in-huge-blow-for-tories-and-labour-135447419.html
https://tinyurl.com/y6p6tnbd
Funny thing is, we haven't had the Tory candidate knock on our door yet (the Lib Dem has).
https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1123272626976301056?s=21