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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The threat of Corbyn becoming PM is irrelevant unless LAB back

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  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    HYUFD said:

    Thayer5 said:

    The curse of nominal determinism strikes again.

    https://twitter.com/bigleaguepol/status/1122901360192761856

    Biden not alone in facing accusations then, now Mayor Pete
    Worth noting that these are both much more serious accusations but also completely unverified. The women who accused Biden were clear that while they felt his behaviour was unacceptable it had been creepy, not actual sexual assault. This blog post, which no journalist has yet looked into or cleared pre-publication, implies a full on sexual assault took place. And a mere couple of months ago, to boot. If it checks out, it will surely be explosive in a way the Biden accusations ended up not being.

    Not to minimise the accusations against Biden morally. They simply haven't yet changed the dynamic politically.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Thayer5 said:

    Thayer5 said:

    The curse of nominal determinism strikes again.

    https://twitter.com/bigleaguepol/status/1122901360192761856

    “In the days and weeks ahead, I will share my full story with the nation,” his post finished.

    Because it’s a perfectly normal thing to do when you’ve been sexually assaulted to spin it out into some kind of box set entertainment for the media.

    I was merely commenting on the unfortunate overlap between name and accusation.
    Sure. His name is stupid.
    I’m just a bit skeptical about this story. But let’s see.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,619
    edited April 2019

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    Yep - it's why I liked the original approach of taking it out of inheritance. While it may have destroyed my inheritance it was both better than the current gamble and the other option of increasing taxes.

    The thing is that the money does need to come from somewhere the question is really only one of where.

    I agree with you. I liked Burnham's Death Tax and I liked Timothy's Dementia Tax. They both had head & heart in the right place. Fund social care out of late lifers' housing wealth (payment deferred until death if necessary) and put a floor in so that people cannot be left with nothing at all to pass on (unless they had nothing at all to start with).
    Absolutely not. The dementia tax was a disaster on the doorstep and the Death Tax and higher inheritance tax also deeply unpopular.

    Fund social care out of higher National Insurance on over 50s, it would raise a lot and most people actually support raising NI to pay for healthcare

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nhs-funding-crisis-raising-national-insurance-half-british-people-yougov-poll-1p-in-the-pound-simon-a7525326.html
    Pensioners should also be hit with NI where appropriate. It is ridiculous if they are earning that they don't pay this considering the costs the state is having to bear.
    I totally agree. Does anyone have any idea how much would be raised if pensioners were not exempt from NI? NI is just disguised income tax with a concession for high earners and pensioners. Very regressive.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,619
    edited April 2019
    HYUFD said:

    There would need to be a major volte face by McCluskey for Labour to come out in favour of a second referendum. Even that might not be enough with Labour unlikely to rebuild their support in Scotland.

    The Tories need to recognise its no deal or no Brexit, get shot of May and get on with life after Brexit if they are to have any chance of reversing the damage May, Hammond, Clark, Grayling have done.

    Frankly, neither party is worth voting for at the moment but the danger McDonnell poses to the economy is by far the greatest.

    It isn't, more MPs have voted for May's Deal or Deal plus Customs Union than No Deal or revoke Article 50 in the indicative votes and Deal plus Customs Union was also closer to a majority than EUref2
    ... but had fewer votes. CU had 268 votes. EUref2 had 264 votes.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    Thayer5 said:

    Thayer5 said:

    The curse of nominal determinism strikes again.

    https://twitter.com/bigleaguepol/status/1122901360192761856

    “In the days and weeks ahead, I will share my full story with the nation,” his post finished.

    Because it’s a perfectly normal thing to do when you’ve been sexually assaulted to spin it out into some kind of box set entertainment for the media.

    I was merely commenting on the unfortunate overlap between name and accusation.
    Sure. His name is stupid.
    I’m just a bit skeptical about this story. But let’s see.
    Put me firmly in the sceptical camp.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    Yep - it's why I liked the original approach of taking it out of inheritance. While it may have destroyed my inheritance it was both better than the current gamble and the other option of increasing taxes.

    The thing is that the money does need to come from somewhere the question is really only one of where.

    I agree with you. I liked Burnham's Death Tax and I liked Timothy's Dementia Tax. They both had head & heart in the right place. Fund social care out of late lifers' housing wealth (payment deferred until death if necessary) and put a floor in so that people cannot be left with nothing at all to pass on (unless they had nothing at all to start with).
    Absolutely not. The dementia tax was a disaster on the doorstep and the Death Tax and higher inheritance tax also deeply unpopular.

    Fund social care out of higher National Insurance on over 50s, it would raise a lot and most people actually support raising NI to pay for healthcare

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nhs-funding-crisis-raising-national-insurance-half-british-people-yougov-poll-1p-in-the-pound-simon-a7525326.html
    Pensioners should also be hit with NI where appropriate. It is ridiculous if they are earning that they don't pay this considering the costs the state is having to bear.
    I totally agree. Does anyone have any idea how much would be raised if pensioners were not exempt from NI? NI is just disguised income tax with a concession for high earners and pensioners. Very regressive.
    HMRC publishes the estimated cost of about 100 tax reliefs each year, but sadly this isn't on it.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/main-tax-expenditures-and-structural-reliefs

    Personally I've never understood why capital gains tax doesn't apply to your main home. That's estimated to cost £27bn per year.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,780
    Cyclefree said:

    McDonnell is utterly untrustworthy. He looks and behaves like one of those bent Met detectives from the 1970’s: outwardly charming and seemingly competent but not to be trusted, quite willing to bend the rules and use violence to get his way and nowhere near as competent as he thinks he is.

    Abbott is probably not up to being leader but has more good points than some of her detractors allow.

    Owen Smith: a bit meh but in the land of the blind etc.....

    McDonnell is dangerous mainly because he's in a job that no sane leader would have ever given him. His economic knowledge seems minimal, and that against a backdrop of incompetence such as Brown (admittedly he's not widely given the discredit he deserves for his economic knowledge).

    Abbott is in roughly the job which suits her least.

    Owen Smith is yesterday's not-the-man.

    There are some other awful choices - Nia Griffith -Defence!

    The only person I can think of who's quite well suited to his job in the shadow cabinet is Starmer.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Quincel said:

    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    Yep - it's why I liked the original approach of taking it out of inheritance. While it may have destroyed my inheritance it was both better than the current gamble and the other option of increasing taxes.

    The thing is that the money does need to come from somewhere the question is really only one of where.

    I agree with you. I liked Burnham's Death Tax and I liked Timothy's Dementia Tax. They both had head & heart in the right place. Fund social care out of late lifers' housing wealth (payment deferred until death if necessary) and put a floor in so that people cannot be left with nothing at all to pass on (unless they had nothing at all to start with).
    Absolutely not. The dementia tax was a disaster on the doorstep and the Death Tax and higher inheritance tax also deeply unpopular.

    Fund social care out of higher National Insurance on over 50s, it would raise a lot and most people actually support raising NI to pay for healthcare

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nhs-funding-crisis-raising-national-insurance-half-british-people-yougov-poll-1p-in-the-pound-simon-a7525326.html
    Pensioners should also be hit with NI where appropriate. It is ridiculous if they are earning that they don't pay this considering the costs the state is having to bear.
    I totally agree. Does anyone have any idea how much would be raised if pensioners were not exempt from NI? NI is just disguised income tax with a concession for high earners and pensioners. Very regressive.
    HMRC publishes the estimated cost of about 100 tax reliefs each year, but sadly this isn't on it.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/main-tax-expenditures-and-structural-reliefs

    Personally I've never understood why capital gains tax doesn't apply to your main home. That's estimated to cost £27bn per year.
    A drawback would be it would stop pensioners downsizing from family homes they no longer need.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Omnium said:

    Cyclefree said:

    McDonnell is utterly untrustworthy. He looks and behaves like one of those bent Met detectives from the 1970’s: outwardly charming and seemingly competent but not to be trusted, quite willing to bend the rules and use violence to get his way and nowhere near as competent as he thinks he is.

    Abbott is probably not up to being leader but has more good points than some of her detractors allow.

    Owen Smith: a bit meh but in the land of the blind etc.....

    McDonnell is dangerous mainly because he's in a job that no sane leader would have ever given him. His economic knowledge seems minimal, and that against a backdrop of incompetence such as Brown (admittedly he's not widely given the discredit he deserves for his economic knowledge).

    Abbott is in roughly the job which suits her least.

    Owen Smith is yesterday's not-the-man.

    There are some other awful choices - Nia Griffith -Defence!

    The only person I can think of who's quite well suited to his job in the shadow cabinet is Starmer.
    Ashworth?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Quincel said:

    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    Yep - it's why I liked the original approach of taking it out of inheritance. While it may have destroyed my inheritance it was both better than the current gamble and the other option of increasing taxes.

    The thing is that the money does need to come from somewhere the question is really only one of where.

    I agree with you. I liked Burnham's Death Tax and I liked Timothy's Dementia Tax. They both had head & heart in the right place. Fund social care out of late lifers' housing wealth (payment deferred until death if necessary) and put a floor in so that people cannot be left with nothing at all to pass on (unless they had nothing at all to start with).
    Absolutely not. The dementia tax was a disaster on the doorstep and the Death Tax and higher inheritance tax also deeply unpopular.

    Fund social care out of higher National Insurance on over 50s, it would raise a lot and most people actually support raising NI to pay for healthcare

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nhs-funding-crisis-raising-national-insurance-half-british-people-yougov-poll-1p-in-the-pound-simon-a7525326.html
    Pensioners should also be hit with NI where appropriate. It is ridiculous if they are earning that they don't pay this considering the costs the state is having to bear.
    I totally agree. Does anyone have any idea how much would be raised if pensioners were not exempt from NI? NI is just disguised income tax with a concession for high earners and pensioners. Very regressive.
    HMRC publishes the estimated cost of about 100 tax reliefs each year, but sadly this isn't on it.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/main-tax-expenditures-and-structural-reliefs

    Personally I've never understood why capital gains tax doesn't apply to your main home. That's estimated to cost £27bn per year.
    A drawback would be it would stop pensioners downsizing from family homes they no longer need.
    Wouldn't it also be more likely to stop people moving between areas, impacting labour mobility?
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042

    Quincel said:

    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    Yep - it's why I liked the original approach of taking it out of inheritance. While it may have destroyed my inheritance it was both better than the current gamble and the other option of increasing taxes.

    The thing is that the money does need to come from somewhere the question is really only one of where.

    I agree with you. I liked Burnham's Death Tax and I liked Timothy's Dementia Tax. They both had head & heart in the right place. Fund social care out of late lifers' housing wealth (payment deferred until death if necessary) and put a floor in so that people cannot be left with nothing at all to pass on (unless they had nothing at all to start with).
    Absolutely not. The dementia tax was a disaster on the doorstep and the Death Tax and higher inheritance tax also deeply unpopular.

    Fund social care out of higher National Insurance on over 50s, it would raise a lot and most people actually support raising NI to pay for healthcare

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nhs-funding-crisis-raising-national-insurance-half-british-people-yougov-poll-1p-in-the-pound-simon-a7525326.html
    Pensioners should also be hit with NI where appropriate. It is ridiculous if they are earning that they don't pay this considering the costs the state is having to bear.
    I totally agree. Does anyone have any idea how much would be raised if pensioners were not exempt from NI? NI is just disguised income tax with a concession for high earners and pensioners. Very regressive.
    HMRC publishes the estimated cost of about 100 tax reliefs each year, but sadly this isn't on it.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/main-tax-expenditures-and-structural-reliefs

    Personally I've never understood why capital gains tax doesn't apply to your main home. That's estimated to cost £27bn per year.
    A drawback would be it would stop pensioners downsizing from family homes they no longer need.
    Sure, everything is a tradeoff. But it seems a pretty expensive and ill-targetted one. If the relief didn't exist would anyone propose (or support) a £27bn annual fund to subsidise pensioners downsizing? It's a huge sum of money, and currently paid to not just that group.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited April 2019
    Barnesian said:

    I totally agree. Does anyone have any idea how much would be raised if pensioners were not exempt from NI? NI is just disguised income tax with a concession for high earners and pensioners. Very regressive.

    Around £0.9bn, according to the Resolution Foundation. So worth having, but not massive at the moment (although it's probably an increasing number).

    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/advanced/a-new-generational-contract/

    Edit: That's for pensioners in employment, not NI on pensions.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    Mayor Pete he takes the morning train...

    https://twitter.com/lis_smith/status/1122915023448358912?s=21
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,780
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Cyclefree said:

    McDonnell is utterly untrustworthy. He looks and behaves like one of those bent Met detectives from the 1970’s: outwardly charming and seemingly competent but not to be trusted, quite willing to bend the rules and use violence to get his way and nowhere near as competent as he thinks he is.

    Abbott is probably not up to being leader but has more good points than some of her detractors allow.

    Owen Smith: a bit meh but in the land of the blind etc.....

    McDonnell is dangerous mainly because he's in a job that no sane leader would have ever given him. His economic knowledge seems minimal, and that against a backdrop of incompetence such as Brown (admittedly he's not widely given the discredit he deserves for his economic knowledge).

    Abbott is in roughly the job which suits her least.

    Owen Smith is yesterday's not-the-man.

    There are some other awful choices - Nia Griffith -Defence!

    The only person I can think of who's quite well suited to his job in the shadow cabinet is Starmer.
    Ashworth?
    Don't really know enough about him to comment. A quick look at wikipedia suggests no obvious rationale for his position.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    edited April 2019
    ydoethur said:



    Wouldn't it also be more likely to stop people moving between areas, impacting labour mobility?

    Why? People would get 80% of the increase in value of each home for the period they lived in them - moving or not moving wouldn't change their profits. It might disincentivise people moving from one area where house prices are rising to another area where people don't expect them to rise, but the lack of house price rise is a much bigger disincentive there.

    I may be missing something, but isn't that like saying people would move jobs more if income tax was lower? There is no tax advantage to staying put or moving either way, assuming the pay/house price rise is the same in each case.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,619
    Quincel said:

    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    Yep - it's why I liked the original approach of taking it out of inheritance. While it may have destroyed my inheritance it was both better than the current gamble and the other option of increasing taxes.

    The thing is that the money does need to come from somewhere the question is really only one of where.

    I agree with you. I liked Burnham's Death Tax and I liked Timothy's Dementia Tax. They both had head & heart in the right place. Fund social care out of late lifers' housing wealth (payment deferred until death if necessary) and put a floor in so that people cannot be left with nothing at all to pass on (unless they had nothing at all to start with).
    Absolutely not. The dementia tax was a disaster on the doorstep and the Death Tax and higher inheritance tax also deeply unpopular.

    Fund social care out of higher National Insurance on over 50s, it would raise a lot and most people actually support raising NI to pay for healthcare

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nhs-funding-crisis-raising-national-insurance-half-british-people-yougov-poll-1p-in-the-pound-simon-a7525326.html
    Pensioners should also be hit with NI where appropriate. It is ridiculous if they are earning that they don't pay this considering the costs the state is having to bear.
    I totally agree. Does anyone have any idea how much would be raised if pensioners were not exempt from NI? NI is just disguised income tax with a concession for high earners and pensioners. Very regressive.
    HMRC publishes the estimated cost of about 100 tax reliefs each year, but sadly this isn't on it.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/main-tax-expenditures-and-structural-reliefs

    Personally I've never understood why capital gains tax doesn't apply to your main home. That's estimated to cost £27bn per year.
    An interesting report - thank you. I'll save that.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Quincel said:

    Quincel said:

    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    Yep - it's why I liked the original approach of taking it out of inheritance. While it may have destroyed my inheritance it was both better than the current gamble and the other option of increasing taxes.

    The thing is that the money does need to come from somewhere the question is really only one of where.

    I agree with you. I liked Burnham's Death Tax and I liked Timothy's Dementia Tax. They both had head & heart in the right place. Fund social care out of late lifers' housing wealth (payment deferred until death if necessary) and put a floor in so that people cannot be left with nothing at all to pass on (unless they had nothing at all to start with).
    Absolutely not. The dementia tax was a disaster on the doorstep and the Death Tax and higher inheritance tax also deeply unpopular.

    Fund social care out of higher National Insurance on over 50s, it would raise a lot and most people actually support raising NI to pay for healthcare

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nhs-funding-crisis-raising-national-insurance-half-british-people-yougov-poll-1p-in-the-pound-simon-a7525326.html
    Pensioners should also be hit with NI where appropriate. It is ridiculous if they are earning that they don't pay this considering the costs the state is having to bear.
    I totally agree. Does anyone have any idea how much would be raised if pensioners were not exempt from NI? NI is just disguised income tax with a concession for high earners and pensioners. Very regressive.
    HMRC publishes the estimated cost of about 100 tax reliefs each year, but sadly this isn't on it.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/main-tax-expenditures-and-structural-reliefs

    Personally I've never understood why capital gains tax doesn't apply to your main home. That's estimated to cost £27bn per year.
    A drawback would be it would stop pensioners downsizing from family homes they no longer need.
    Sure, everything is a tradeoff. But it seems a pretty expensive and ill-targetted one. If the relief didn't exist would anyone propose (or support) a £27bn annual fund to subsidise pensioners downsizing? It's a huge sum of money, and currently paid to not just that group.
    For the great majority of people, the family home is their major and only investment.

    It’s profoundly un-Tory to tax it for capital gains in my view, even if it is “logical”.
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    HYUFD said:

    There would need to be a major volte face by McCluskey for Labour to come out in favour of a second referendum. Even that might not be enough with Labour unlikely to rebuild their support in Scotland.

    The Tories need to recognise its no deal or no Brexit, get shot of May and get on with life after Brexit if they are to have any chance of reversing the damage May, Hammond, Clark, Grayling have done.

    Frankly, neither party is worth voting for at the moment but the danger McDonnell poses to the economy is by far the greatest.

    It isn't, more MPs have voted for May's Deal or Deal plus Customs Union than No Deal or revoke Article 50 in the indicative votes and Deal plus Customs Union was also closer to a majority than EUref2
    That’s largely because of Party whipping. May’s deal might legally be Brexit but it is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. Tacking a CU onto it, would be insane - outsourcing our trade policy.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    HYUFD said:

    There would need to be a major volte face by McCluskey for Labour to come out in favour of a second referendum. Even that might not be enough with Labour unlikely to rebuild their support in Scotland.

    The Tories need to recognise its no deal or no Brexit, get shot of May and get on with life after Brexit if they are to have any chance of reversing the damage May, Hammond, Clark, Grayling have done.

    Frankly, neither party is worth voting for at the moment but the danger McDonnell poses to the economy is by far the greatest.

    It isn't, more MPs have voted for May's Deal or Deal plus Customs Union than No Deal or revoke Article 50 in the indicative votes and Deal plus Customs Union was also closer to a majority than EUref2
    That’s largely because of Party whipping. May’s deal might legally be Brexit but it is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. Tacking a CU onto it, would be insane - outsourcing our trade policy.
    May’s deal is the only sane Brexit we are left with.

    If we don’t do May’s deal, we shouldn’t leave.
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445

    HYUFD said:

    There would need to be a major volte face by McCluskey for Labour to come out in favour of a second referendum. Even that might not be enough with Labour unlikely to rebuild their support in Scotland.

    The Tories need to recognise its no deal or no Brexit, get shot of May and get on with life after Brexit if they are to have any chance of reversing the damage May, Hammond, Clark, Grayling have done.

    Frankly, neither party is worth voting for at the moment but the danger McDonnell poses to the economy is by far the greatest.

    It isn't, more MPs have voted for May's Deal or Deal plus Customs Union than No Deal or revoke Article 50 in the indicative votes and Deal plus Customs Union was also closer to a majority than EUref2
    That’s largely because of Party whipping. May’s deal might legally be Brexit but it is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. Tacking a CU onto it, would be insane - outsourcing our trade policy.
    May’s deal is the only sane Brexit we are left with.

    If we don’t do May’s deal, we shouldn’t leave.
    One day you’ll say something sensible. Sadly not today.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Quincel said:

    ydoethur said:



    Wouldn't it also be more likely to stop people moving between areas, impacting labour mobility?

    Why? People would get 80% of the increase in value of each home for the period they lived in them - moving or not moving wouldn't change their profits. It might disincentivise people moving from one area where house prices are rising to another area where people don't expect them to rise, but the lack of house price rise is a much bigger disincentive there.

    I may be missing something, but isn't that like saying people would move jobs more if income tax was lower? There is no tax advantage to staying put or moving either way, assuming the pay/house price rise is the same in each case.
    I'm more concerned that if I moved from Cannock (where prices are low) to Gloucestershire (where they are not) losing any additional value of my house would make that more difficult.

    But ultimately I think the exemption is because a house that you live in isn't 'capital.' It's closer to a car than a share portfolio.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    HYUFD said:

    There would need to be a major volte face by McCluskey for Labour to come out in favour of a second referendum. Even that might not be enough with Labour unlikely to rebuild their support in Scotland.

    The Tories need to recognise its no deal or no Brexit, get shot of May and get on with life after Brexit if they are to have any chance of reversing the damage May, Hammond, Clark, Grayling have done.

    Frankly, neither party is worth voting for at the moment but the danger McDonnell poses to the economy is by far the greatest.

    It isn't, more MPs have voted for May's Deal or Deal plus Customs Union than No Deal or revoke Article 50 in the indicative votes and Deal plus Customs Union was also closer to a majority than EUref2
    That’s largely because of Party whipping. May’s deal might legally be Brexit but it is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. Tacking a CU onto it, would be insane - outsourcing our trade policy.
    May’s deal is the only sane Brexit we are left with.

    If we don’t do May’s deal, we shouldn’t leave.
    One day you’ll say something sensible. Sadly not today.
    At least I have it to look forward to.
    We have long given up such hope for you.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,870
    HYUFD said:

    Thayer5 said:

    The curse of nominal determinism strikes again.

    https://twitter.com/bigleaguepol/status/1122901360192761856

    Biden not alone in facing accusations then, now Mayor Pete
    Turned out he was a good lay after all.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,497
    HYUFD said:

    Thayer5 said:

    The curse of nominal determinism strikes again.

    https://twitter.com/bigleaguepol/status/1122901360192761856

    Biden not alone in facing accusations then, now Mayor Pete
    They must be seriously worried about him.
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Cyclefree said:

    McDonnell is utterly untrustworthy. He looks and behaves like one of those bent Met detectives from the 1970’s: outwardly charming and seemingly competent but not to be trusted, quite willing to bend the rules and use violence to get his way and nowhere near as competent as he thinks he is.

    Abbott is probably not up to being leader but has more good points than some of her detractors allow.

    Owen Smith: a bit meh but in the land of the blind etc.....

    McDonnell is dangerous mainly because he's in a job that no sane leader would have ever given him. His economic knowledge seems minimal, and that against a backdrop of incompetence such as Brown (admittedly he's not widely given the discredit he deserves for his economic knowledge).

    Abbott is in roughly the job which suits her least.

    Owen Smith is yesterday's not-the-man.

    There are some other awful choices - Nia Griffith -Defence!

    The only person I can think of who's quite well suited to his job in the shadow cabinet is Starmer.
    Ashworth?
    Hardly. Once you look past Cooper, Kendall, and Field, there is the same lack of quality as there is in all political parties. All of them rely on patronage for advancing their careers and that is the root cause of why our politics is an international joke
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    Quincel said:

    Quincel said:

    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    Yep - it's why I liked the original approach of taking it out of inheritance. While it may have destroyed my inheritance it was both better than the current gamble and the other option of increasing taxes.

    The thing is that the money does need to come from somewhere the question is really only one of where.

    I agree with you. I liked Burnham's Death Tax and I liked Timothy's Dementia Tax. They both had head & heart in the right place. Fund social care out of late lifers' housing wealth (payment deferred until death if necessary) and put a floor in so that people cannot be left with nothing at all to pass on (unless they had nothing at all to start with).
    Absolutely not. The dementia tax was a disaster on the doorstep and the Death Tax and higher inheritance tax also deeply unpopular.

    Fund social care out of higher National Insurance on over 50s, it would raise a lot and most people actually support raising NI to pay for healthcare

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nhs-funding-crisis-raising-national-insurance-half-british-people-yougov-poll-1p-in-the-pound-simon-a7525326.html
    Pensioners should also be hit with NI where appropriate. It is ridiculous if they are earning that they don't pay this considering the costs the state is having to bear.
    I totally agree. Does anyone have any idea how much would be raised if pensioners were not exempt from NI? NI is just disguised income tax with a concession for high earners and pensioners. Very regressive.
    HMRC publishes the estimated cost of about 100 tax reliefs each year, but sadly this isn't on it.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/main-tax-expenditures-and-structural-reliefs

    Personally I've never understood why capital gains tax doesn't apply to your main home. That's estimated to cost £27bn per year.
    A drawback would be it would stop pensioners downsizing from family homes they no longer need.
    Sure, everything is a tradeoff. But it seems a pretty expensive and ill-targetted one. If the relief didn't exist would anyone propose (or support) a £27bn annual fund to subsidise pensioners downsizing? It's a huge sum of money, and currently paid to not just that group.
    It also keeps property prices higher than they would be otherwise. It directs capital away from productive areas of the economy towards unproductive areas.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    rkrkrk said:

    Quincel said:

    Quincel said:

    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    Yep - it's why I liked the original approach of taking it out of inheritance. While it may have destroyed my inheritance it was both better than the current gamble and the other option of increasing taxes.

    The thing is that the money does need to come from somewhere the question is really only one of where.

    I agree with you. I liked Burnham's Death Tax and I liked Timothy's Dementia Tax. They both had head & heart in the right place. Fund social care out of late lifers' housing wealth (payment deferred until death if necessary) and put a floor in so that people cannot be left with nothing at all to pass on (unless they had nothing at all to start with).
    Absolutely not. The dementia tax was a disaster on the doorstep and the Death Tax and higher inheritance tax also deeply unpopular.

    Fund social care out of higher National Insurance on over 50s, it would raise a lot and most people actually support raising NI to pay for healthcare

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nhs-funding-crisis-raising-national-insurance-half-british-people-yougov-poll-1p-in-the-pound-simon-a7525326.html
    Pensioners should also be hit with NI where appropriate. It is ridiculous if they are earning that they don't pay this considering the costs the state is having to bear.
    I totally agree. Does anyone have any idea how much would be raised if pensioners were not exempt from NI? NI is just disguised income tax with a concession for high earners and pensioners. Very regressive.
    HMRC publishes the estimated cost of about 100 tax reliefs each year, but sadly this isn't on it.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/main-tax-expenditures-and-structural-reliefs

    Personally I've never understood why capital gains tax doesn't apply to your main home. That's estimated to cost £27bn per year.
    A drawback would be it would stop pensioners downsizing from family homes they no longer need.
    Sure, everything is a tradeoff. But it seems a pretty expensive and ill-targetted one. If the relief didn't exist would anyone propose (or support) a £27bn annual fund to subsidise pensioners downsizing? It's a huge sum of money, and currently paid to not just that group.
    It also keeps property prices higher than they would be otherwise. It directs capital away from productive areas of the economy towards unproductive areas.
    A land tax would be better.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Cyclefree said:

    McDonnell is utterly untrustworthy. He looks and behaves like one of those bent Met detectives from the 1970’s: outwardly charming and seemingly competent but not to be trusted, quite willing to bend the rules and use violence to get his way and nowhere near as competent as he thinks he is.

    Abbott is probably not up to being leader but has more good points than some of her detractors allow.

    Owen Smith: a bit meh but in the land of the blind etc.....

    McDonnell is dangerous mainly because he's in a job that no sane leader would have ever given him. His economic knowledge seems minimal, and that against a backdrop of incompetence such as Brown (admittedly he's not widely given the discredit he deserves for his economic knowledge).

    Abbott is in roughly the job which suits her least.

    Owen Smith is yesterday's not-the-man.

    There are some other awful choices - Nia Griffith -Defence!

    The only person I can think of who's quite well suited to his job in the shadow cabinet is Starmer.
    Ashworth?
    Hardly. Once you look past Cooper, Kendall, and Field, there is the same lack of quality as there is in all political parties. All of them rely on patronage for advancing their careers and that is the root cause of why our politics is an international joke
    I would not describe Liz Kendall as 'quality.' Moreover none of those three are in the Shadow Cabinet and Field isn't even a member of the Labour Party.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited April 2019
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thayer5 said:

    The curse of nominal determinism strikes again.

    https://twitter.com/bigleaguepol/status/1122901360192761856

    Biden not alone in facing accusations then, now Mayor Pete
    Turned out he was a good lay after all.
    And people accuse me of making bad puns!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    Thayer5 said:

    The curse of nominal determinism strikes again.

    twitter.com/bigleaguepol/status/1122901360192761856

    The cop tapes stuff is pretty dodgy. I don't think his answers on the CNN town hall did anything but made it seems even dodgier.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    edited April 2019
    ydoethur said:

    Quincel said:

    ydoethur said:



    Wouldn't it also be more likely to stop people moving between areas, impacting labour mobility?

    Why? People would get 80% of the increase in value of each home for the period they lived in them - moving or not moving wouldn't change their profits. It might disincentivise people moving from one area where house prices are rising to another area where people don't expect them to rise, but the lack of house price rise is a much bigger disincentive there.

    I may be missing something, but isn't that like saying people would move jobs more if income tax was lower? There is no tax advantage to staying put or moving either way, assuming the pay/house price rise is the same in each case.
    I'm more concerned that if I moved from Cannock (where prices are low) to Gloucestershire (where they are not) losing any additional value of my house would make that more difficult.

    But ultimately I think the exemption is because a house that you live in isn't 'capital.' It's closer to a car than a share portfolio.
    A house is nothing like a car. Cars depreciate.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298

    rkrkrk said:


    It also keeps property prices higher than they would be otherwise. It directs capital away from productive areas of the economy towards unproductive areas.

    A land tax would be better.
    Am a big fan of a land tax. But this is needed also I think. Even with a land tax, by allowing personal property a significant tax break, it incentivises speculation.
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    edited April 2019
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Cyclefree said:

    McDonnell is utterly untrustworthy. He looks and behaves like one of those bent Met detectives from the 1970’s: outwardly charming and seemingly competent but not to be trusted, quite willing to bend the rules and use violence to get his way and nowhere near as competent as he thinks he is.

    Abbott is probably not up to being leader but has more good points than some of her detractors allow.

    Owen Smith: a bit meh but in the land of the blind etc.....

    McDonnell is dangerous mainly because he's in a job that no sane leader would have ever given him. His economic knowledge seems minimal, and that against a backdrop of incompetence such as Brown (admittedly he's not widely given the discredit he deserves for his economic knowledge).

    Abbott is in roughly the job which suits her least.

    Owen Smith is yesterday's not-the-man.

    There are some other awful choices - Nia Griffith -Defence!

    The only person I can think of who's quite well suited to his job in the shadow cabinet is Starmer.
    Ashworth?
    Hardly. Once you look past Cooper, Kendall, and Field, there is the same lack of quality as there is in all political parties. All of them rely on patronage for advancing their careers and that is the root cause of why our politics is an international joke
    I would not describe Liz Kendall as 'quality.' Moreover none of those three are in the Shadow Cabinet and Field isn't even a member of the Labour Party.
    Field being driven out should tell you that the inmates are running the Labour asylum as should Cooper not being in the Shadow Cabinet. The Tories would welcome Kendall with open arms if she was ever tempted.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited April 2019

    The Tories would welcome Kendall with open arms if she was ever tempted.

    That doesn't mean she's 'quality.' I mean, they keep Francois and Fabricant on for reasons that continue to defy logic.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Cyclefree said:

    McDonnell is utterly untrustworthy. He looks and behaves like one of those bent Met detectives from the 1970’s: outwardly charming and seemingly competent but not to be trusted, quite willing to bend the rules and use violence to get his way and nowhere near as competent as he thinks he is.

    Abbott is probably not up to being leader but has more good points than some of her detractors allow.

    Owen Smith: a bit meh but in the land of the blind etc.....

    McDonnell is dangerous mainly because he's in a job that no sane leader would have ever given him. His economic knowledge seems minimal, and that against a backdrop of incompetence such as Brown (admittedly he's not widely given the discredit he deserves for his economic knowledge).

    Abbott is in roughly the job which suits her least.

    Owen Smith is yesterday's not-the-man.

    There are some other awful choices - Nia Griffith -Defence!

    The only person I can think of who's quite well suited to his job in the shadow cabinet is Starmer.
    Ashworth?
    Hardly. Once you look past Cooper, Kendall, and Field, there is the same lack of quality as there is in all political parties. All of them rely on patronage for advancing their careers and that is the root cause of why our politics is an international joke
    I would not describe Liz Kendall as 'quality.' Moreover none of those three are in the Shadow Cabinet and Field isn't even a member of the Labour Party.
    Field being driven out should tell you that the inmates are running the Labour asylum as should Cooper not being in the Shadow Cabinet. The Tories would welcome Kendall with open arms if she was ever tempted.
    Jumping enthusiastically aboard a sinking ship?
    There is nothing Tory about Liz.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,710
    HYUFD said:
    The sun came out? Spring has sprung? Someone turned up the radiator?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kinabalu said:

    TGOHF said:

    One trick pony - vote for me I'm black like you.

    Is that your considered view about all black MPs?
    If you take, for example Kwasi Kwateng and David Lammy.

    I don’t go looking for speeches or comments by either of them.

    But the impression I get is that Kwasi competes on ideas (often impractical but always interesting) while Lammy focuses on his genetic characteristics (race)

    It seems a shame, and limiting, to focus on what cannot be changed and trying to manage the consequences vs trying to improve life for all citizens irrespective of ethnicity

  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    edited April 2019
    ydoethur said:

    The Tories would welcome Kendall with open arms if she was ever tempted.

    That doesn't mean she's 'quality.' I mean, they keeep Francois and Fabricant on for reasons that continue to defy logic.
    They made the candidate selection list and have more support from their constituencies than say, Grieve or Gauke. Try telling May or Lewis or their electorates that they have no place in HoC and see what reaction you get. That’s democracy - we don’t always get our own way!
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    TGOHF said:

    One trick pony - vote for me I'm black like you.

    Is that your considered view about all black MPs?
    If you take, for example Kwasi Kwateng and David Lammy.

    I don’t go looking for speeches or comments by either of them.

    But the impression I get is that Kwasi competes on ideas (often impractical but always interesting) while Lammy focuses on his genetic characteristics (race)

    It seems a shame, and limiting, to focus on what cannot be changed and trying to manage the consequences vs trying to improve life for all citizens irrespective of ethnicity

    Lammy represents an electorate which has one of the highest black populations in the country. He sees himself as speaking for that community especially (though not exclusively) and so what?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    Frank Field is every Tory's favourite Labour MP. Something about him seems to really appeal.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    The Tories would welcome Kendall with open arms if she was ever tempted.

    That doesn't mean she's 'quality.' I mean, they keeep Francois and Fabricant on for reasons that continue to defy logic.
    They made the candidate selection list and have more support from their constituencies than say, Grieve or Gauke. Try telling May or Lewis or their electorates that they have no place in HoC and see what reaction you get. That’s democracy - we don’t always get our own way!
    And they're still rubbish.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited April 2019

    This is rather funny - remind me, which of the two negotiating teams has been insisting on 'no cherry-picking' and that the UK would become a third-party country with no special status?

    https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1122878678495571969/photo/1

    Only young people from 27 nations - it would of course free up places for young people from across the world.

    The UK has the best and most highly ranked universities in Europe - why shouldn’t non UK nationals who aren’t good enough for bursaries and scholarships not pay top dollar to go to them.

    And if we are to provide subsidies why not to kids from developing nations?
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    dixiedean said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Cyclefree said:

    McDonnell is utterly untrustworthy. He looks and behaves like one of those bent Met detectives from the 1970’s: outwardly charming and seemingly competent but not to be trusted, quite willing to bend the rules and use violence to get his way and nowhere near as competent as he thinks he is.

    Abbott is probably not up to being leader but has more good points than some of her detractors allow.

    Owen Smith: a bit meh but in the land of the blind etc.....

    McDonnell is dangerous mainly because he's in a job that no sane leader would have ever given him. His economic knowledge seems minimal, and that against a backdrop of incompetence such as Brown (admittedly he's not widely given the discredit he deserves for his economic knowledge).

    Abbott is in roughly the job which suits her least.

    Owen Smith is yesterday's not-the-man.

    There are some other awful choices - Nia Griffith -Defence!

    The only person I can think of who's quite well suited to his job in the shadow cabinet is Starmer.
    Ashworth?
    Hardly. Once you look past Cooper, Kendall, and Field, there is the same lack of quality as there is in all political parties. All of them rely on patronage for advancing their careers and that is the root cause of why our politics is an international joke
    I would not describe Liz Kendall as 'quality.' Moreover none of those three are in the Shadow Cabinet and Field isn't even a member of the Labour Party.
    Field being driven out should tell you that the inmates are running the Labour asylum as should Cooper not being in the Shadow Cabinet. The Tories would welcome Kendall with open arms if she was ever tempted.
    Jumping enthusiastically aboard a sinking ship?
    There is nothing Tory about Liz.
    I didn’t say there was dear boy. I merely opined that she was one of the few sane Labour MPs still around. Given the degree which May aspires to emulate Blairite Labour, which is not a quality I admire, I simply ventured an opinion she’d be welcomed by Tory party officials. The fact that she wouldn’t be interested wasn’t in dispute.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    dixiedean said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Cyclefree said:

    McDonnell is utterly untrustworthy. He looks and behaves like one of those bent Met detectives from the 1970’s: outwardly charming and seemingly competent but not to be trusted, quite willing to bend the rules and use violence to get his way and nowhere near as competent as he thinks he is.

    Abbott is probably not up to being leader but has more good points than some of her detractors allow.

    Owen Smith: a bit meh but in the land of the blind etc.....

    McDonnell is dangerous mainly because he's in a job that no sane leader would have ever given him. His economic knowledge seems minimal, and that against a backdrop of incompetence such as Brown (admittedly he's not widely given the discredit he deserves for his economic knowledge).

    Abbott is in roughly the job which suits her least.

    Owen Smith is yesterday's not-the-man.

    There are some other awful choices - Nia Griffith -Defence!

    The only person I can think of who's quite well suited to his job in the shadow cabinet is Starmer.
    Ashworth?
    Hardly. Once you look past Cooper, Kendall, and Field, there is the same lack of quality as there is in all political parties. All of them rely on patronage for advancing their careers and that is the root cause of why our politics is an international joke
    I would not describe Liz Kendall as 'quality.' Moreover none of those three are in the Shadow Cabinet and Field isn't even a member of the Labour Party.
    Field being driven out should tell you that the inmates are running the Labour asylum as should Cooper not being in the Shadow Cabinet. The Tories would welcome Kendall with open arms if she was ever tempted.
    Jumping enthusiastically aboard a sinking ship?
    There is nothing Tory about Liz.
    I didn’t say there was dear boy. I merely opined that she was one of the few sane Labour MPs still around. Given the degree which May aspires to emulate Blairite Labour, which is not a quality I admire, I simply ventured an opinion she’d be welcomed by Tory party officials. The fact that she wouldn’t be interested wasn’t in dispute.
    Fair enough.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    Kwasi Kwateng went to Eton. That is character forming.
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Tories would welcome Kendall with open arms if she was ever tempted.

    That doesn't mean she's 'quality.' I mean, they keeep Francois and Fabricant on for reasons that continue to defy logic.
    They made the candidate selection list and have more support from their constituencies than say, Grieve or Gauke. Try telling May or Lewis or their electorates that they have no place in HoC and see what reaction you get. That’s democracy - we don’t always get our own way!
    And they're still rubbish.
    In your opinion. I don’t think that will worry them too much.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Tories would welcome Kendall with open arms if she was ever tempted.

    That doesn't mean she's 'quality.' I mean, they keeep Francois and Fabricant on for reasons that continue to defy logic.
    They made the candidate selection list and have more support from their constituencies than say, Grieve or Gauke. Try telling May or Lewis or their electorates that they have no place in HoC and see what reaction you get. That’s democracy - we don’t always get our own way!
    And they're still rubbish.
    In your opinion. I don’t think that will worry them too much.
    How could anyone look objectively at those two and think they're not rubbish? Leaving aside their bizarre convolutions over Brexit, what have either ever actually done?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    kinabalu said:

    Frank Field is every Tory's favourite Labour MP. Something about him seems to really appeal.

    Which is in some ways quite strange. Field is an expert on welfare policy. He really knows this area in a way few backbenchers understand anything. He also takes a very dim view of the Tory policy.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    Frank Field is every Tory's favourite Labour MP. Something about him seems to really appeal.

    Which is in some ways quite strange. Field is an expert on welfare policy. He really knows this area in a way few backbenchers understand anything. He also takes a very dim view of the Tory policy.
    Given the disaster that is universal credit, I don't see why those two are mutually exclusive.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    kinabalu said:

    Frank Field is every Tory's favourite Labour MP. Something about him seems to really appeal.

    Thatcher and Field were good friends - and she also got on well with Eric Heffer.
  • dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    Frank Field is every Tory's favourite Labour MP. Something about him seems to really appeal.

    Which is in some ways quite strange. Field is an expert on welfare policy. He really knows this area in a way few backbenchers understand anything. He also takes a very dim view of the Tory policy.
    The policy as originally intended was good. Then the Treasury turned it into a cost-cutting exercise.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Frank Field is every Tory's favourite Labour MP. Something about him seems to really appeal.

    Thatcher and Field were good friends - and she also got on well with Eric Heffer.
    The latter's hardly surprising. He must have done more damage to Labour's chances of electoral success than every member of her cabinet put together.
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Tories would welcome Kendall with open arms if she was ever tempted.

    That doesn't mean she's 'quality.' I mean, they keeep Francois and Fabricant on for reasons that continue to defy logic.
    They made the candidate selection list and have more support from their constituencies than say, Grieve or Gauke. Try telling May or Lewis or their electorates that they have no place in HoC and see what reaction you get. That’s democracy - we don’t always get our own way!
    And they're still rubbish.
    In your opinion. I don’t think that will worry them too much.
    How could anyone look objectively at those two and think they're not rubbish? Leaving aside their bizarre convolutions over Brexit, what have either ever actually done?
    People have different values and opinions and the right to express them - at least until Corbyn and Watson get in and start censoring the press! Your opinion on Francois and Fabricant is clearly not shared by CCHQ or their constituency associations or their electorates. Frankly, I’d take them both in preference to anything Labour has to offer other than the 3 individuals I previously mentioned.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    A land tax would be better.

    An annual tax on second properties coupled with a special CGT rate matching income tax rates. Really turn the screw against landlords.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Tories would welcome Kendall with open arms if she was ever tempted.

    That doesn't mean she's 'quality.' I mean, they keeep Francois and Fabricant on for reasons that continue to defy logic.
    They made the candidate selection list and have more support from their constituencies than say, Grieve or Gauke. Try telling May or Lewis or their electorates that they have no place in HoC and see what reaction you get. That’s democracy - we don’t always get our own way!
    And they're still rubbish.
    In your opinion. I don’t think that will worry them too much.
    How could anyone look objectively at those two and think they're not rubbish? Leaving aside their bizarre convolutions over Brexit, what have either ever actually done?
    People have different values and opinions and the right to express them - at least until Corbyn and Watson get in and start censoring the press! Your opinion on Francois and Fabricant is clearly not shared by CCHQ or their constituency associations or their electorates. Frankly, I’d take them both in preference to anything Labour has to offer other than the 3 individuals I previously mentioned.
    Fabricant's profile and standing in Lichfield are comparable to Liz Kendall's in Leicester West.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Frank Field is every Tory's favourite Labour MP. Something about him seems to really appeal.

    Thatcher and Field were good friends - and she also got on well with Eric Heffer.
    The latter's hardly surprising. He must have done more damage to Labour's chances of electoral success than every member of her cabinet put together.
    I don't think the explanation lies there though. Heffer was often invited over to No 10 for drinks. He was a devout Anglican and Thatcher attended his funeral in 1991.Tony Benn recounted being surprised at finding her seated in the row behind himself - and breaking into floods of tears.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    kinabalu said:

    Frank Field is every Tory's favourite Labour MP. Something about him seems to really appeal.

    The fact that he is rightwing is probably part of it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Frank Field is every Tory's favourite Labour MP. Something about him seems to really appeal.

    Thatcher and Field were good friends - and she also got on well with Eric Heffer.
    The latter's hardly surprising. He must have done more damage to Labour's chances of electoral success than every member of her cabinet put together.
    I don't think the explanation lies there though. Heffer was often invited over to No 10 for drinks. He was a devout Anglican and Thatcher attended his funeral in 1991.Tony Benn recounted being surprised at finding her seated in the row behind himself - and breaking into floods of tears.
    I thought Thatcher was a Methodist?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Looking to the locals where are May, Corbyn and cable campaigning?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited April 2019
    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Frank Field is every Tory's favourite Labour MP. Something about him seems to really appeal.

    Thatcher and Field were good friends - and she also got on well with Eric Heffer.
    The latter's hardly surprising. He must have done more damage to Labour's chances of electoral success than every member of her cabinet put together.
    I don't think the explanation lies there though. Heffer was often invited over to No 10 for drinks. He was a devout Anglican and Thatcher attended his funeral in 1991.Tony Benn recounted being surprised at finding her seated in the row behind himself - and breaking into floods of tears.
    I thought Thatcher was a Methodist?
    She was brought up as a Methodist .
    I am not wishing to suggest that religion had much to do with their relationship - I really have no idea. People 'click' sometimes for all kinds of reasons - but some kind of rapport was clearly established there.
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Tories would welcome Kendall with open arms if she was ever tempted.

    That doesn't mean she's 'quality.' I mean, they keeep Francois and Fabricant on for reasons that continue to defy logic.
    They made the candidate selection list and have more support from their constituencies than say, Grieve or Gauke. Try telling May or Lewis or their electorates that they have no place in HoC and see what reaction you get. That’s democracy - we don’t always get our own way!
    And they're still rubbish.
    In your opinion. I don’t think that will worry them too much.
    How could anyone look objectively at those two and think they're not rubbish? Leaving aside their bizarre convolutions over Brexit, what have either ever actually done?
    People have different values and opinions and the right to express them - at least until Corbyn and Watson get in and start censoring the press! Your opinion on Francois and Fabricant is clearly not shared by CCHQ or their constituency associations or their electorates. Frankly, I’d take them both in preference to anything Labour has to offer other than the 3 individuals I previously mentioned.
    Fabricant's profile and standing in Lichfield are comparable to Liz Kendall's in Leicester West.
    Very different electorates though
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    Frank Field is every Tory's favourite Labour MP. Something about him seems to really appeal.

    Which is in some ways quite strange. Field is an expert on welfare policy. He really knows this area in a way few backbenchers understand anything. He also takes a very dim view of the Tory policy.
    Not a fan of Labour’s welfare policy either. He wanted welfare replaced with mutual insurance.
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    GOT Battle for Winterfell - fantastic
  • nichomar said:

    Looking to the locals where are May, Corbyn and cable campaigning?

    Cable was in the Cotswolds today. Council is currently CON 22 LD 12.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,958
    This is becoming something of an obsession, Mike. Those Remain supporters are already voting Labour. Alastair's article a couple of weeks ago showed that the seats Labour needs to win are in Leave-voting small towns.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited April 2019
    Discussing Eric Heffer has made me feel a touch mournful! He passed away in May 1991 - yet he still seems a pretty recent figure to me. The reality of the almost 28 years that have elapsed since his death makes me confront the prospect that as someone who will reach 65 in July , I am unlikely to see another period quite as long as that - not that I wish to!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2019

    Thayer5 said:

    The curse of nominal determinism strikes again.

    https://twitter.com/bigleaguepol/status/1122901360192761856

    “In the days and weeks ahead, I will share my full story with the nation,” his post finished.

    Because it’s a perfectly normal thing to do when you’ve been sexually assaulted to spin it out into some kind of box set entertainment for the media.

    That ‘not believing the ‘victim’’ thing caught on quick!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    justin124 said:

    Discussing Eric Heffer has made me feel a touch mournful! He passed away in May 1991 - yet he still seems a pretty recent figure to me. The reality of the almost 28 years that have elapsed since his death makes me confront the prospect that as someone who will reach 65 in July , I am unlikely to see another period quite as long as that - not that I wish to!

    By-election special with David Dimbleby.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0U4UcEIRkI
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    justin124 said:

    Thatcher and Field were good friends - and she also got on well with Eric Heffer.

    Thatcher and Heffer does seem an odd friendship! Mind you, I gather that Jess Phillips and Jacob Rees Mogg are verging on besotted. Really hard to get my mind around that.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239

    nichomar said:

    Looking to the locals where are May, Corbyn and cable campaigning?

    Cable was in the Cotswolds today. Council is currently CON 22 LD 12.
    Cotswold DC is a quiet Lib Dem success story. I wouldn't put it past them taking control one day, though not this year. It's a sign of where affluent, educated rural areas within the ambit of London are moving - which means that "shire Tories" may not be such a bedrock in the future.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,780
    The only things you need to know about Heffer are in either or the Benn or Crossland diaries. Can't recall where, but just skip through and its obvious.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    GOT Battle for Winterfell - fantastic

    Are we allowed to talk spoilers? I don't even know if we're allowed to talk about the Batman vs Superman fight in Avengers: Endgame yet... :)
  • viewcode said:

    GOT Battle for Winterfell - fantastic

    Are we allowed to talk spoilers? I don't even know if we're allowed to talk about the Batman vs Superman fight in Avengers: Endgame yet... :)
    Well.....
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,780

    nichomar said:

    Looking to the locals where are May, Corbyn and cable campaigning?

    Cable was in the Cotswolds today. Council is currently CON 22 LD 12.
    34 Brexit then?

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    F
    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Frank Field is every Tory's favourite Labour MP. Something about him seems to really appeal.

    Thatcher and Field were good friends - and she also got on well with Eric Heffer.
    She also stayed in touch with Eric Heffer’s widow, which speaks well of both of them.

    @NickPalmer has often commented on cross-party friendships. I think the better of those who do. It shows that they see past the label to the person underneath.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    isam said:

    Thayer5 said:

    The curse of nominal determinism strikes again.

    https://twitter.com/bigleaguepol/status/1122901360192761856

    “In the days and weeks ahead, I will share my full story with the nation,” his post finished.

    Because it’s a perfectly normal thing to do when you’ve been sexually assaulted to spin it out into some kind of box set entertainment for the media.

    That ‘not believing the ‘victim’’ thing caught on quick!
    How he responds to this will be a measure of whether he has some of what it takes.
  • nichomar said:

    Looking to the locals where are May, Corbyn and cable campaigning?

    Cable was in the Cotswolds today. Council is currently CON 22 LD 12.
    Cotswold DC is a quiet Lib Dem success story. I wouldn't put it past them taking control one day, though not this year. It's a sign of where affluent, educated rural areas within the ambit of London are moving - which means that "shire Tories" may not be such a bedrock in the future.
    Cotswolds was one of the few non-metropolitan areas to vote remain.

    My own small town of Winchcombe might be an example of the the trend to which you are referring. I don't take soundings but it feels kind of remainy. Will be interesting to see how the LDs do in the vote on Thursday.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    nichomar said:

    Looking to the locals where are May, Corbyn and cable campaigning?

    Corbyn been to Amber Valley.

    Belper is trending left.

    All 4 Belper seats are up.

    If Lab take 3 Tory marginals it wins control of Council.

    Will be tight but doable IMO
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    viewcode said:

    GOT Battle for Winterfell - fantastic

    Are we allowed to talk spoilers? I don't even know if we're allowed to talk about the Batman vs Superman fight in Avengers: Endgame yet... :)
    I am not talking spoilers. Well worth the wait though. Roll on episode 4
  • Cyclefree said:

    F

    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Frank Field is every Tory's favourite Labour MP. Something about him seems to really appeal.

    Thatcher and Field were good friends - and she also got on well with Eric Heffer.
    She also stayed in touch with Eric Heffer’s widow, which speaks well of both of them.

    @NickPalmer has often commented on cross-party friendships. I think the better of those who do. It shows that they see past the label to the person underneath.
    Blair and Ian Paisley, apparently.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    TGOHF said:

    One trick pony - vote for me I'm black like you.

    Is that your considered view about all black MPs?
    If you take, for example Kwasi Kwateng and David Lammy.

    I don’t go looking for speeches or comments by either of them.

    But the impression I get is that Kwasi competes on ideas (often impractical but always interesting) while Lammy focuses on his genetic characteristics (race)

    It seems a shame, and limiting, to focus on what cannot be changed and trying to manage the consequences vs trying to improve life for all citizens irrespective of ethnicity

    Lammy represents an electorate which has one of the highest black populations in the country. He sees himself as speaking for that community especially (though not exclusively) and so what?
    Too often he comes across as giving the impression that his constituents are perpetual victims without any agency. Clearly we need to ensure equality of opportunity but too often he gives the impression that they are powerless to improve their own position in life
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,160

    nichomar said:

    Looking to the locals where are May, Corbyn and cable campaigning?

    Cable was in the Cotswolds today. Council is currently CON 22 LD 12.
    Cotswold DC is a quiet Lib Dem success story. I wouldn't put it past them taking control one day, though not this year. It's a sign of where affluent, educated rural areas within the ambit of London are moving - which means that "shire Tories" may not be such a bedrock in the future.
    A few rural affluent areas like Cotswold and Abingdon voted Remain and are moving LD but the vast majority of rural areas voted Leave and are still solid Tory (but probably Brexit Party in the Euros).

    The Tories have also picked up a few Leave voting industrial areas like Mansfield and Walsall to make up for Remain rural areas lost
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Looking to the locals where are May, Corbyn and cable campaigning?

    Cable was in the Cotswolds today. Council is currently CON 22 LD 12.
    Cotswold DC is a quiet Lib Dem success story. I wouldn't put it past them taking control one day, though not this year. It's a sign of where affluent, educated rural areas within the ambit of London are moving - which means that "shire Tories" may not be such a bedrock in the future.
    A few rural affluent areas like Cotswold and Abingdon voted Remain and are moving LD but the vast majority of rural areas voted Leave and are still solid Tory (but probably Brexit Party in the Euros).

    The Tories have also picked up a few Leave voting industrial areas like Mansfield and Walsall to make up for Remain rural areas lost
    Was talking to someone who is campaigning in Mansfield.

    He reckons Tories will consolidate their gains. Even in the current climate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,160

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Looking to the locals where are May, Corbyn and cable campaigning?

    Cable was in the Cotswolds today. Council is currently CON 22 LD 12.
    Cotswold DC is a quiet Lib Dem success story. I wouldn't put it past them taking control one day, though not this year. It's a sign of where affluent, educated rural areas within the ambit of London are moving - which means that "shire Tories" may not be such a bedrock in the future.
    A few rural affluent areas like Cotswold and Abingdon voted Remain and are moving LD but the vast majority of rural areas voted Leave and are still solid Tory (but probably Brexit Party in the Euros).

    The Tories have also picked up a few Leave voting industrial areas like Mansfield and Walsall to make up for Remain rural areas lost
    Was talking to someone who is campaigning in Mansfield.

    He reckons Tories will consolidate their gains. Even in the current climate.
    Without Brexit Party opposition in the locals quite possibly and Ben Bradley is a good campaigner and MP
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,160
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    TGOHF said:

    One trick pony - vote for me I'm black like you.

    Is that your considered view about all black MPs?
    If you take, for example Kwasi Kwateng and David Lammy.

    I don’t go looking for speeches or comments by either of them.

    But the impression I get is that Kwasi competes on ideas (often impractical but always interesting) while Lammy focuses on his genetic characteristics (race)

    It seems a shame, and limiting, to focus on what cannot be changed and trying to manage the consequences vs trying to improve life for all citizens irrespective of ethnicity

    Lammy represents an electorate which has one of the highest black populations in the country. He sees himself as speaking for that community especially (though not exclusively) and so what?
    Too often he comes across as giving the impression that his constituents are perpetual victims without any agency. Clearly we need to ensure equality of opportunity but too often he gives the impression that they are powerless to improve their own position in life
    To be a bit cheeky as Berlusconi said 'the left love poverty and every time they get in they create more of it!'
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Looking to the locals where are May, Corbyn and cable campaigning?

    Cable was in the Cotswolds today. Council is currently CON 22 LD 12.
    Cotswold DC is a quiet Lib Dem success story. I wouldn't put it past them taking control one day, though not this year. It's a sign of where affluent, educated rural areas within the ambit of London are moving - which means that "shire Tories" may not be such a bedrock in the future.
    A few rural affluent areas like Cotswold and Abingdon voted Remain and are moving LD but the vast majority of rural areas voted Leave and are still solid Tory (but probably Brexit Party in the Euros).

    The Tories have also picked up a few Leave voting industrial areas like Mansfield and Walsall to make up for Remain rural areas lost
    So only minimal conservative losses on Thursday then?
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