Brexit will happen, but the bitter irony is that it will be delivered contrary to the will of the people.
True . The poll also showed a 12 point lead for Remain over Leave in another EU ref . The will of the people guff that’s been cremated looks even more pathetic given poll after poll for the last 18 months shows not a single lead for the Leave side .
The only reason support for Leave is down is because the underhanded sabotage of Remainers, combined with completely unbalanced coverage by the BBC, has made a small fraction of Leavers disillusioned with the whole political process of it. As soon as purdah started last time, the gap started to close, as it would in a second referendum.
That being the 'only' reason for support being down strikes me as somewhat optimistic. And is sabotage only underhanded when done by Remainers, given there's been plenty of sabotage by leavers too?
Every Leaver has supported either Deal or No Deal, which implements the result of the referendum. If Remainers had done the same, we would have been out by now. This is especially true of the Allens, Umunnas, Soubrys of this world, who promised to respect the referendum and then put two fingers up to the electorate after they got reelected.
If Leavers are allowed to oppose the deal, so are Remainers.
They are welcome to oppose the deal as long as they support another form of possible Brexit.
As Labour do.
As the Labour leadership do. The issue is with the Remain backbenches.
Labour backbenchers have by and large followed their leader’s line on Brexit.
Then how come so many voted against every Brexit option in the indicative votes?
The indicative votes were largely sabotaged by the government whipping Conservative MPs to vote against every option that stood a chance of getting a majority. Labour MPs are no more obliged to compromise their view of what would constitute an appropriate deal than Conservative MPs.
More than half the public (55%) now think it would have been better never to
Brexit will happen, but the bitter irony is that it will be delivered contrary to the will of the people.
for the Leave side .
The only reason support for Leave is down is because the underhanded sabotage of Remainers, combined with completely unbalanced coverage by the BBC, has made a small fraction of Leavers disillusioned with the whole political process of it. As soon as purdah started last time, the gap started to close, as it would in a second referendum.
That being the 'only' reason for support being down strikes me as somewhat optimistic. And is sabotage only underhanded when done by Remainers, given there's been plenty of sabotage by leavers too?
Every Leaver has supported either Deal or No Deal, which implements the result of the referendum. If Remainers had done the same, we would have been out by now. This is especially true of the Allens, Umunnas, Soubrys of this world, who promised to respect the referendum and then put two fingers up to the electorate after they got reelected.
If Leavers are allowed to oppose the deal, so are Remainers.
They are welcome to oppose the deal as long as they support another form of possible Brexit.
As Labour do.
As the Labour leadership do. The issue is with the Remain backbenches.
Labour backbenchers have by and large followed their leader’s line on Brexit.
Then how come so many voted against every Brexit option in the indicative votes?
As I recall almost every Labour MP voted for Labour’s own Brexit option. Yes, it’s fanciful, but no more so than the half of the Tory Party still chasing Brady/Malthouse long after it is stone dead or the other half chasing no deal despite ample evidence that no government or parliament would ever take us there.
Leavers have turned Brexit into an embarrassing and damaging fiasco, to the point where it is entirely legitimate to ask the question whether we should now go through with it, or not. The alternative, as said upthread, is that it gets forced upon a population that now realises what a mistake it would be.
It’s remarkable how Leavers can convince themselves that it would not be fruitful for political parties to pursue a segment of the electorate that all recent polls suggest currently form a majority of the electorate and where there is abundant evidence that many feel passionately about the subject.
Current Labour voters who support Remain like Corbyn, and will stick with him for other reasons, despite his lack of enthusiasm for the EU. The question is whether Labour would gain in net terms by overtly opposing Brexit.
It is more a question of is it a net gain in the key marginals they need to win a GE. Some slide rule jockey is going to have to answer that as I am fucked if I know. Every percentage point that the polls move to Remain is another turn of the thumbscrew for the Corbyn-Milne symbiote though.
Apparently people are just jealous of Milne's youthful looks.
I'd never looked it up but I assumed Milne was in his 40's, that is pretty impressive.
Although the main reason Milne disliked is his political views, if he was more supportive of war and the occupation of Palestine he wouldn't be targeted. Also being close to Corbyn will get you attacked in the media, if he was just working at the Guardian there would be much less reason to target him.
If he was a centrist you would have Nick Cohen writing an article complaining about people targeting him! (as per my article and extract earlier)
Attractive? With those sticky out ears? People must be blind.
I suggested back in February that the TIG MPs had erred in not following the example of the UKIP defectors by forcing by elections. I suspect that the optimum time for doing that has now passed as public attention has wandered elsewhere- and they now face the very real prospect of disappearing from the radar for most people in the absence of any sudden surge on 23rd May. The fate of Veritas looms ahead for them , and they well lack any meaningful prescence at the General Election.
Katharine Stewart Murray is an interesting woman. Duchess of Atholl in her spare time, militant *opponent* of women's suffrage, first Scottish woman MP. The circumstances of her resigning were: "She resigned the Conservative Whip first in 1935 over the India Bill and the "national-socialist tendency" of the government's domestic policy. Resuming the Whip, she resigned it again in 1938 in opposition to Neville Chamberlain's policy of appeasement of Adolf Hitler and to the Anglo-Italian agreement. According to her biography, A Working Partnership she was then deselected by her local party. She took Stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds on 28 November 1938. She stood unsuccessfully in the subsequent by-election as an Independent candidate."
Nice to see Sunil fulfilling his destiny and taking his rightful place at OGHs side.
You're welcome! Would have replied earlier if I weren't at the Epping Ongar Diesel Gala!
Did they have a Deltic again this year?
No, not this time, only a Class 25 as guest, plus a Class 37, Class 31, Class 47, class 117 DMU and a Class 20. Class 45 on display, plus 03 shunter. There was also a 1959 tube stock driving car on display too. Oh, and the former LT electric loco L11 is in new bright yellow garb outside Epping Car Park!
Nice. I went a few years back when they had 55019. There is no more beautiful sight in the world than a class 55.
A pity they moved the original Deltic from the Science Museum! BTW my first trainset was a Lima class 55 "Fife & Forfar Yeomanry".
You mean it is disgusting that in future we will treat all foreign nationals equally in relation to paying for higher education?
Not disgusting. But actively attempting to sabotage a major export, which adds hugely to our worldwide influence and soft power, may be described as bloody stupid. I just don't, for the life of me, understand this fixation with foreign students. Other countries try to recruit them.
Am I reading this correctly? Nick Timothy is now urging the Tories to rename themselves the National Party and go after the English rural redneck vote. I'm amazed he thinks such a demographic even exists, let alone be capable of winning you an election.
That would be the same Nick Timothy who was one of May’s most toxic advisers and wrote the toxic 2017 Tory Manifesto. Best ignored.
It might have been toxic,
But at least it was honest about the challenges of paying for an ageing population.
It seems the best way to gain votes is simply to lie to the people about the challenges ahead.
Of course.
That policy may well have needed work, and they only dared mention it because they thought they would win big, but I did appreciate that they were willing to mention it.
Katharine Stewart Murray is an interesting woman. Duchess of Atholl in her spare time, militant *opponent* of women's suffrage, first Scottish woman MP. The circumstances of her resigning were: "She resigned the Conservative Whip first in 1935 over the India Bill and the "national-socialist tendency" of the government's domestic policy. Resuming the Whip, she resigned it again in 1938 in opposition to Neville Chamberlain's policy of appeasement of Adolf Hitler and to the Anglo-Italian agreement. According to her biography, A Working Partnership she was then deselected by her local party. She took Stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds on 28 November 1938. She stood unsuccessfully in the subsequent by-election as an Independent candidate."
Nice to see Sunil fulfilling his destiny and taking his rightful place at OGHs side.
You're welcome! Would have replied earlier if I weren't at the Epping Ongar Diesel Gala!
Did they have a Deltic again this year?
No, not this time, only a Class 25 as guest, plus a Class 37, Class 31, Class 47, class 117 DMU and a Class 20. Class 45 on display, plus 03 shunter. There was also a 1959 tube stock driving car on display too. Oh, and the former LT electric loco L11 is in new bright yellow garb outside Epping Car Park!
Nice. I went a few years back when they had 55019. There is no more beautiful sight in the world than a class 55.
A pity they moved the original Deltic from the Science Museum! BTW my first trainset was a Lima class 55 "Fife & Forfar Yeomanry".
Have you visited the Deltic Society at Barrow Hill?
You mean it is disgusting that in future we will treat all foreign nationals equally in relation to paying for higher education?
Not disgusting. But actively attempting to sabotage a major export, which adds hugely to our worldwide influence and soft power, may be described as bloody stupid. I just don't, for the life of me, understand this fixation with foreign students. Other countries try to recruit them.
Or it means more places for students from across the globe who will pay full fees and not need subsidising by the taxpayer. Why only subsidise students from 27 other nations?
In Scotland of course presumably this will also end the farcical situation whereby young English, Welsh and NI young people whose parents taxes help fund free tuition there have to pay for their tuition whereas EU resident nationals whose parents pay nothing to the UK exchequer get free tuition at Scottish unis.
Although the main reason Milne disliked is his political views, if he was more supportive of war and the occupation of Palestine he wouldn't be targeted. Also being close to Corbyn will get you attacked in the media, if he was just working at the Guardian there would be much less reason to target him.
If he was a centrist you would have Nick Cohen writing an article complaining about people targeting him! (as per my article and extract earlier)
The reason Milne is attacked is because he is a propagandist and liar for a regime of mass murder and racial cleansing. He is a stupider, richer and better connected version of David Irving.
Perhaps it is worth reflecting that one of the first reasons Corbyn was attacked in the media was for appointing Milne. His closeness to an apologist for genocide and totalitarianism hurt him - not the other way around.
Katharine Stewart Murray is an interesting woman. Duchess of Atholl in her spare time, militant *opponent* of women's suffrage, first Scottish woman MP. The circumstances of her resigning were: "She resigned the Conservative Whip first in 1935 over the India Bill and the "national-socialist tendency" of the government's domestic policy. Resuming the Whip, she resigned it again in 1938 in opposition to Neville Chamberlain's policy of appeasement of Adolf Hitler and to the Anglo-Italian agreement. According to her biography, A Working Partnership she was then deselected by her local party. She took Stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds on 28 November 1938. She stood unsuccessfully in the subsequent by-election as an Independent candidate."
Nice to see Sunil fulfilling his destiny and taking his rightful place at OGHs side.
You're welcome! Would have replied earlier if I weren't at the Epping Ongar Diesel Gala!
Did they have a Deltic again this year?
No, not this time, only a Class 25 as guest, plus a Class 37, Class 31, Class 47, class 117 DMU and a Class 20. Class 45 on display, plus 03 shunter. There was also a 1959 tube stock driving car on display too. Oh, and the former LT electric loco L11 is in new bright yellow garb outside Epping Car Park!
Nice. I went a few years back when they had 55019. There is no more beautiful sight in the world than a class 55.
A pity they moved the original Deltic from the Science Museum! BTW my first trainset was a Lima class 55 "Fife & Forfar Yeomanry".
Have you visited the Deltic Society at Barrow Hill?
I'm amazed at that tweet. When did Lord Cashcroft learn to read?
Are you and he Polls apart?
I was just Hungary for more information, and Czeching (given his history of apparent illiteracy) that the noble lord was not telling porkies (out of the mouths of dead porkies..)?
Hammond has simply pursued Osborne’s policies - allowing Gov spending to escalate and funding it by frozen allowances and big hikes in indirect taxes. Neither did anything to attract inward investment, boost productivity or champion consumer rights and both have penalised savers to favour borrowers. Both were indistinguishable from Blairite Labour. Hammond has been negligent in combatting McDonnell’s Mickey Mouse economics and has given McDonnell free rein in peddling his economic illiteracy. He’s useless.
Government spending is rising
It’s only impossible to counter if you don’t you don’t grow the economy faster than Gov spending or if you don’t means test benefits or introduce state health insurance like most developed economies. The NHS was never intended to be free at the point of delivery for everyone for everything and the waste is enormous - litigation, locums, drugs procured then scrapped, micro management of doctors etc.
Pushing up indirect taxes to base tax on consumption would be fine but not if you are leaving direct tax unchanged and freezing allowances. That’s the worst of both worlds.
Saving rates have collapsed and household debt is now higher than it was before the crash.
R&D is internationally uncompetitive the U.K. Osborne’s tax credit scheme works fine for pharma but is a disaster for manufacturing. As a former PLC board director we nearly always invested overseas rather than the U.K. because the U.K. was relatively uncompetitive - poor infrastructure, high energy costs, lack of employee productivity, uncompetitive R&D etc etc
Yes,it is almost as if Brexit is not the solution to our economic problems. Indeed by being so dependent on the votes of the retired, the Conservatives will not be able to squeeze the elderly.
With current immigration the working age population is stable, and the population growth is of the elderly, until it stabilised in the 2040s. These costs cannot be avoided, whether paid for by state or citizen, the only argument is about how those costs are allocated.
Delighted to see Norwich City back in the Premiership - let's hope they can build and become a permanent fixture in the top flight.
The weekend polling continues to highlight the emergence of the Brexit Party as a powerful political force - polling 14-17% for a party which has barely started is impressive, no doubt. What this will mean for the local elections next Thursday is impossible to know.
Given the Brexit Party is mainly the party of older ex-Conservatives and older people tend to vote there are two possible scenarios - one, a depressed turnout next Thursday as the normally Conservative - voting elderly stay at home or a better than expected performance by the Conservatives as older voters continue to back the party locally even if eschewing them nationally.
Although the main reason Milne disliked is his political views, if he was more supportive of war and the occupation of Palestine he wouldn't be targeted. Also being close to Corbyn will get you attacked in the media, if he was just working at the Guardian there would be much less reason to target him.
If he was a centrist you would have Nick Cohen writing an article complaining about people targeting him! (as per my article and extract earlier)
The reason Milne is attacked is because he is a propagandist and liar for a regime of mass murder and racial cleansing. He is a stupider, richer and better connected version of David Irving.
Perhaps it is worth reflecting that one of the first reasons Corbyn was attacked in the media was for appointing Milne. His closeness to an apologist for genocide and totalitarianism hurt him - not the other way around.
Katharine Stewart Murray is an interesting woman. Duchess of Atholl in her spare time, militant *opponent* of women's suffrage, first Scottish woman MP. The circumstances of her resigning were: "She resigned the Conservative Whip first in 1935 over the India Bill and the "national-socialist tendency" of the government's domestic policy. Resuming the Whip, she resigned it again in 1938 in opposition to Neville Chamberlain's policy of appeasement of Adolf Hitler and to the Anglo-Italian agreement. According to her biography, A Working Partnership she was then deselected by her local party. She took Stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds on 28 November 1938. She stood unsuccessfully in the subsequent by-election as an Independent candidate."
Nice to see Sunil fulfilling his destiny and taking his rightful place at OGHs side.
You're welcome! Would have replied earlier if I weren't at the Epping Ongar Diesel Gala!
Did they have a Deltic again this year?
No, not this time, only a Class 25 as guest, plus a Class 37, Class 31, Class 47, class 117 DMU and a Class 20. Class 45 on display, plus 03 shunter. There was also a 1959 tube stock driving car on display too. Oh, and the former LT electric loco L11 is in new bright yellow garb outside Epping Car Park!
Nice. I went a few years back when they had 55019. There is no more beautiful sight in the world than a class 55.
A pity they moved the original Deltic from the Science Museum! BTW my first trainset was a Lima class 55 "Fife & Forfar Yeomanry".
Hammond has simply pursued Osborne’s policies - allowing Gov spending to escalate and funding it by frozen allowances and big hikes in indirect taxes. Neither did anything to attract inward investment, boost productivity or champion consumer rights and both have penalised savers to favour borrowers. Both were indistinguishable from Blairite Labour. Hammond has been negligent in combatting McDonnell’s Mickey Mouse economics and has given McDonnell free rein in peddling his economic illiteracy. He’s useless.
Government spending is rising
It’s only impossible to counter if you don’t you don’t grow the economy faster than Gov spending or if you don’t means test benefits or introduce state health insurance like most developed economies. The NHS was never intended to be free at the point of delivery for everyone for everything and the waste is enormous - litigation, locums, drugs procured then scrapped, micro management of doctors etc.
Pushing up indirect taxes to base tax on consumption would be fine but not if you are leaving direct tax unchanged and freezing allowances. That’s the worst of both worlds.
Saving rates have collapsed and household debt is now higher than it was before the crash.
R&D is internationally uncompetitive the U.K. Osborne’s tax credit scheme works fine for pharma but is a disaster for manufacturing. As a former PLC board director we nearly always invested overseas rather than the U.K. because the U.K. was relatively uncompetitive - poor infrastructure, high energy costs, lack of employee productivity, uncompetitive R&D etc etc
Yes,it is almost as if Brexit is not the solution to our economic problems. Indeed by being so dependent on the votes of the retired, the Conservatives will not be able to squeeze the elderly.
With current immigration the working age population is stable, and the population growth is of the elderly, until it stabilised in the 2040s. These costs cannot be avoided, whether paid for by state or citizen, the only argument is about how those costs are allocated.
Although the main reason Milne disliked is his political views, if he was more supportive of war and the occupation of Palestine he wouldn't be targeted. Also being close to Corbyn will get you attacked in the media, if he was just working at the Guardian there would be much less reason to target him.
If he was a centrist you would have Nick Cohen writing an article complaining about people targeting him! (as per my article and extract earlier)
The reason Milne is attacked is because he is a propagandist and liar for a regime of mass murder and racial cleansing. He is a stupider, richer and better connected version of David Irving.
Perhaps it is worth reflecting that one of the first reasons Corbyn was attacked in the media was for appointing Milne. His closeness to an apologist for genocide and totalitarianism hurt him - not the other way around.
Corbyn was attacked before he appointed Milne, whoever he appointed was very likely to get attacked, even if he had pretty much the opposite views of David Irving.
In fact probably exactly because he has the opposite views of David Irving, who fits in a lot better with the right wing press.
If Milne was a bit more pro genocide and totalitarianism the right wing press would love him, it is his left wing foreign policy views that cause a lot of the angst.
Although the main reason Milne disliked is his political views, if he was more supportive of war and the occupation of Palestine he wouldn't be targeted. Also being close to Corbyn will get you attacked in the media, if he was just working at the Guardian there would be much less reason to target him.
If he was a centrist you would have Nick Cohen writing an article complaining about people targeting him! (as per my article and extract earlier)
The reason Milne is attacked is because he is a propagandist and liar for a regime of mass murder and racial cleansing. He is a stupider, richer and better connected version of David Irving.
Perhaps it is worth reflecting that one of the first reasons Corbyn was attacked in the media was for appointing Milne. His closeness to an apologist for genocide and totalitarianism hurt him - not the other way around.
Corbyn was attacked before he appointed Milne, whoever he appointed was very likely to get attacked, even if he had pretty much the opposite views of David Irving.
In fact probably exactly because he has the opposite views of David Irving, who fits in a lot better with the right wing press.
If Milne was a bit more pro genocide and totalitarianism the right wing press would love him, it is his left wing foreign policy views that cause a lot of the angst.
Have you ever read his books on Stalin's purges and East Germany? That's what I was comparing to Irving. Blatant falsification, distortion and facile acceptance of obvious propaganda because it fits his views. That's how he compares.
And yes, Corbyn was attacked before Milne was appointed, but he was also attacked for appointing Milne. Your claim therefore that Milne is damned by association doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
As you would know if you had ever studied either system, there was very little practical difference between Nazism and Communism. Both were murderous, both were corrupt, both were racist, both were aggressively expansionist, and most of all both ultimately failed in all their goals. In fact to quote Richard Overy the irony of the Second World War was that the Allies included a regime in Soviet Russia that was just as bad as the Nazi regime they were fighting. So an apologist for one based on lies (Milne) is just as bad as another based on lies (Irvine).
However, all that said, I personally still think the Nazis were uniquely unpleasant. The Soviets killed Jews and Poles, but didn't boil their bodies for soap. I'm just not willing to give Milne a free pass on a technicality, unlike far too many people on the left.
Comments
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/1122229538459721728
Leavers have turned Brexit into an embarrassing and damaging fiasco, to the point where it is entirely legitimate to ask the question whether we should now go through with it, or not. The alternative, as said upthread, is that it gets forced upon a population that now realises what a mistake it would be.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/27/public-thinks-eu-referendum-was-a-bad-idea-says-poll
Other countries try to recruit them.
And I did see Altior win his 20th consecutive race. What a horse!!
In Scotland of course presumably this will also end the farcical situation whereby young English, Welsh and NI young people whose parents taxes help fund free tuition there have to pay for their tuition whereas EU resident nationals whose parents pay nothing to the UK exchequer get free tuition at Scottish unis.
Perhaps it is worth reflecting that one of the first reasons Corbyn was attacked in the media was for appointing Milne. His closeness to an apologist for genocide and totalitarianism hurt him - not the other way around.
Brexit - No Customs Union (Tory)................. 16% Survation / 14% Opinium
Brexit - Customs Union (Labour) ...................27% Survation / 28% Opinium
Remain - EU and UK - (CUK/Green/Lib Dem) 16% Survation / 20% Opinium
Remain - EU, not UK - (SNP)............................ 3% Survation / 5% Opinium
With current immigration the working age population is stable, and the population growth is of the elderly, until it stabilised in the 2040s. These costs cannot be avoided, whether paid for by state or citizen, the only argument is about how those costs are allocated.
https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/978302412363624448?s=19
If it is any consolation, just about every country on earth is in the same boat.
https://twitter.com/anthonyjwells/status/1121722525350805504
Roarsome.
NEW THREAD
Delighted to see Norwich City back in the Premiership - let's hope they can build and become a permanent fixture in the top flight.
The weekend polling continues to highlight the emergence of the Brexit Party as a powerful political force - polling 14-17% for a party which has barely started is impressive, no doubt. What this will mean for the local elections next Thursday is impossible to know.
Given the Brexit Party is mainly the party of older ex-Conservatives and older people tend to vote there are two possible scenarios - one, a depressed turnout next Thursday as the normally Conservative - voting elderly stay at home or a better than expected performance by the Conservatives as older voters continue to back the party locally even if eschewing them nationally.
In fact probably exactly because he has the opposite views of David Irving, who fits in a lot better with the right wing press.
If Milne was a bit more pro genocide and totalitarianism the right wing press would love him, it is his left wing foreign policy views that cause a lot of the angst.
And yes, Corbyn was attacked before Milne was appointed, but he was also attacked for appointing Milne. Your claim therefore that Milne is damned by association doesn't stand up to scrutiny. As you would know if you had ever studied either system, there was very little practical difference between Nazism and Communism. Both were murderous, both were corrupt, both were racist, both were aggressively expansionist, and most of all both ultimately failed in all their goals. In fact to quote Richard Overy the irony of the Second World War was that the Allies included a regime in Soviet Russia that was just as bad as the Nazi regime they were fighting. So an apologist for one based on lies (Milne) is just as bad as another based on lies (Irvine).
However, all that said, I personally still think the Nazis were uniquely unpleasant. The Soviets killed Jews and Poles, but didn't boil their bodies for soap. I'm just not willing to give Milne a free pass on a technicality, unlike far too many people on the left.