"However, the capacity it delivers on intercity and capacity it frees up on the existing network for more services could only be matched by two brand new north-south motorways – a prospect no one has yet put to members. ”
Not going for the green vote then!
A slower railway with stops at some new towns may well be better environmentally and economically.
Is there evidence for this? I would have thought the best approach would be a mix between the two, which could be achieved with a dedicated high-speed line and one that can run services that make more frequent stops.
Yeh, looks that way. They will take the Tory party down the same rabbit hole unless sensible members like yourself don't stop this madness.
Sign the bloody deal and move on!!!!
Signing the deal would help Farage. It would still be a ‘betrayal’, and there’d be no way to back out.
Exactly.
And getting the commons votes for the WA Act will require Corbyn. And meeting all his demands. Which of course are calibrated to split the tory parly party.
The WA is dead or the tory parly party splits
So will the Labour party split if Corbyn sticks with Brexit with a Customs Union rather than backing revoke Article 50 or EUref2
No, Labour will come up with a qualified commitment to EUref2 which will keep the show on the road. The selection of Adonis and Eloise Todd as MEP candidates sends a signal that is clearly aimed at committed remain campaigners.
Yeh, looks that way. They will take the Tory party down the same rabbit hole unless sensible members like yourself don't stop this madness.
Sign the bloody deal and move on!!!!
Signing the deal would help Farage. It would still be a ‘betrayal’, and there’d be no way to back out.
Exactly.
And getting the commons votes for the WA Act will require Corbyn. And meeting all his demands. Which of course are calibrated to split the tory parly party.
The WA is dead or the tory parly party splits
So will the Labour party split if Corbyn sticks with Brexit with a Customs Union rather than backing revoke Article 50 or EUref2
Which is, of course, why he will not make a decision. And thus the WA hangs around the tory's neck, in an unpassable state, until the tories have to make a decision to ditch it.
Except May will not make a decision to ditch it that is abundantly clear she will happily drag Corbyn into the mire with her as she has shown
"However, the capacity it delivers on intercity and capacity it frees up on the existing network for more services could only be matched by two brand new north-south motorways – a prospect no one has yet put to members. ”
Not going for the green vote then!
A slower railway with stops at some new towns may well be better environmentally and economically.
For a very long time the Greens called for High Speed rail. Seem to have forgotten this in last few years.
Yeh, looks that way. They will take the Tory party down the same rabbit hole unless sensible members like yourself don't stop this madness.
Sign the bloody deal and move on!!!!
Signing the deal would help Farage. It would still be a ‘betrayal’, and there’d be no way to back out.
Exactly.
And getting the commons votes for the WA Act will require Corbyn. And meeting all his demands. Which of course are calibrated to split the tory parly party.
The WA is dead or the tory parly party splits
So will the Labour party split if Corbyn sticks with Brexit with a Customs Union rather than backing revoke Article 50 or EUref2
No, Labour will come up with a qualified commitment to EUref2 which will keep the show on the road. The selection of Adonis and Eloise Todd as MEP candidates sends a signal that is clearly aimed at committed remain campaigners.
Corbyn has not made any such commitment to EUref2 and the likeliest outcome in my view is the Commons passes the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement with a Customs Union in the Political Declaration thanks to Labour votes, that is closer to a majority in the Commons than EUref2 as the indicative votes showed and May has cleverly ensured Corbyn will be tarred with that as much as she is
Jesus. Is that their idea of a "big idea"? How much has already been spent? An open goal if they try to point out the absence of a magic money tree.
But there are far better ways to get that extra capacity than HS2. The capacity issues are primarily on short distance journeys around metropolitan centres. They should be looking at ways to massively increase capacity between the northern cities and the shorter commuter journeys into London. HS2 certainly won't help the first of those and will only make a marginal difference to the second.
Yeh, looks that way. They will take the Tory party down the same rabbit hole unless sensible members like yourself don't stop this madness.
Sign the bloody deal and move on!!!!
Signing the deal would help Farage. It would still be a ‘betrayal’, and there’d be no way to back out.
Exactly.
And getting the commons votes for the WA Act will require Corbyn. And meeting all his demands. Which of course are calibrated to split the tory parly party.
The WA is dead or the tory parly party splits
So will the Labour party split if Corbyn sticks with Brexit with a Customs Union rather than backing revoke Article 50 or EUref2
Which is, of course, why he will not make a decision. And thus the WA hangs around the tory's neck, in an unpassable state, until the tories have to make a decision to ditch it.
Except May will not make a decision to ditch it that is abundantly clear she will happily drag Corbyn into the mire with her as she has shown
May has the half life of a mayfly.
Her successor will confront the same problem.
Only worse, as farage will have by then demonstrated his power to convert 'tory' voters wholesale.
"However, the capacity it delivers on intercity and capacity it frees up on the existing network for more services could only be matched by two brand new north-south motorways – a prospect no one has yet put to members. ”
Not going for the green vote then!
A slower railway with stops at some new towns may well be better environmentally and economically.
For a very long time the Greens called for High Speed rail. Seem to have forgotten this in last few years.
High speed rail is intrinsically less energy efficient as resistance rises geometrically. Also engineering costs are much higher than conventional high speed lines. Stops for people to get off are also useful except for those wanting to travel only from megacity centre to megacity 2 centre.
Jesus. Is that their idea of a "big idea"? How much has already been spent? An open goal if they try to point out the absence of a magic money tree.
But there are far better ways to get that extra capacity than HS2. The capacity issues are primarily on short distance journeys around metropolitan centres. They should be looking at ways to massively increase capacity between the northern cities and the shorter commuter journeys into London. HS2 certainly won't help the first of those and will only make a marginal difference to the second.
Fair enough . Agree about better ways to spend it. However ,when it comes to sinking large sums of cash into doomed projects , then thinking better of it, the Tories are displaying recidivist tendencies .
"However, the capacity it delivers on intercity and capacity it frees up on the existing network for more services could only be matched by two brand new north-south motorways – a prospect no one has yet put to members. ”
Not going for the green vote then!
A slower railway with stops at some new towns may well be better environmentally and economically.
For a very long time the Greens called for High Speed rail. Seem to have forgotten this in last few years.
High speed rail is intrinsically less energy efficient as resistance rises geometrically. Also engineering costs are much higher than conventional high speed lines. Stops for people to get off are also useful except for those wanting to travel only from megacity centre to megacity 2 centre.
The argument was that HS replaced flights within UK.
Yeh, looks that way. They will take the Tory party down the same rabbit hole unless sensible members like yourself don't stop this madness.
Sign the bloody deal and move on!!!!
Signing the deal would help Farage. It would still be a ‘betrayal’, and there’d be no way to back out.
Exactly.
And getting the commons votes for the WA Act will require Corbyn. And meeting all his demands. Which of course are calibrated to split the tory parly party.
The WA is dead or the tory parly party splits
So will the Labour party split if Corbyn sticks with Brexit with a Customs Union rather than backing revoke Article 50 or EUref2
No, Labour will come up with a qualified commitment to EUref2 which will keep the show on the road. The selection of Adonis and Eloise Todd as MEP candidates sends a signal that is clearly aimed at committed remain campaigners.
Corbyn has not made any such commitment to EUref2 and the likeliest outcome in my view is the Commons passes the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement with a Customs Union in the Political Declaration thanks to Labour votes, that is closer to a majority in the Commons than EUref2 as the indicative votes showed and May has cleverly ensured Corbyn will be tarred with that as much as she is
Corbyn will not do a deal with the Tories and nor will he encourage Labour MPs to vote for May's deal. He does not do subterfuge. And he does not have the power to deliver Labour support for any form of Brexit, more than 80% of the membership are remainers.
I've never read the Tory Party's rule book, but presumably it requires members to support the party at elections? Shouldn't any candidate openly supporting another would be liable to be thrown out?
Presumably they are covertly rather than overtly supporting Farage.
Yeh, looks that way. They will take the Tory party down the same rabbit hole unless sensible members like yourself don't stop this madness.
Sign the bloody deal and move on!!!!
Signing the deal would help Farage. It would still be a ‘betrayal’, and there’d be no way to back out.
Exactly.
And getting the commons votes for the WA Act will require Corbyn. And meeting all his demands. Which of course are calibrated to split the tory parly party.
The WA is dead or the tory parly party splits
So will the Labour party split if Corbyn sticks with Brexit with a Customs Union rather than backing revoke Article 50 or EUref2
No, Labour will come up with a qualified commitment to EUref2 which will keep the show on the road. The selection of Adonis and Eloise Todd as MEP candidates sends a signal that is clearly aimed at committed remain campaigners.
Corbyn has not made any such commitment to EUref2 and the likeliest outcome in my view is the Commons passes the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement with a Customs Union in the Political Declaration thanks to Labour votes, that is closer to a majority in the Commons than EUref2 as the indicative votes showed and May has cleverly ensured Corbyn will be tarred with that as much as she is
Corbyn will not do a deal with the Tories and nor will he encourage Labour MPs to vote for May's deal. He does not do subterfuge. And he does not have the power to deliver Labour support for any form of Brexit, more than 80% of the membership are remainers.
Corbyn is only one MP, MPs as a whole only rejected Deal plus Customs Union in the indicative votes by 3 votes, MPs rejected EUref2 though by 30 votes.
"However, the capacity it delivers on intercity and capacity it frees up on the existing network for more services could only be matched by two brand new north-south motorways – a prospect no one has yet put to members. ”
Not going for the green vote then!
A slower railway with stops at some new towns may well be better environmentally and economically.
For a very long time the Greens called for High Speed rail. Seem to have forgotten this in last few years.
High speed rail is intrinsically less energy efficient as resistance rises geometrically. Also engineering costs are much higher than conventional high speed lines. Stops for people to get off are also useful except for those wanting to travel only from megacity centre to megacity 2 centre.
In Japan they built the equivalent of HS2 in 1964 despite having been comprehensively defeated in war 19 years earlier. Why does it take us long to get anything done? A lot of people who originally supported HS2 are now having doubts about it.
Except if the Deal passes the backstop will be legally binding in international law, Boris can try and change the Political Declaration for the future relationship but that is not the same thing
"However, the capacity it delivers on intercity and capacity it frees up on the existing network for more services could only be matched by two brand new north-south motorways – a prospect no one has yet put to members. ”
Not going for the green vote then!
A slower railway with stops at some new towns may well be better environmentally and economically.
For a very long time the Greens called for High Speed rail. Seem to have forgotten this in last few years.
High speed rail is intrinsically less energy efficient as resistance rises geometrically. Also engineering costs are much higher than conventional high speed lines. Stops for people to get off are also useful except for those wanting to travel only from megacity centre to megacity 2 centre.
In Japan they built the equivalent of HS2 in 1964 despite having been comprehensively defeated in war 19 years earlier. Why does it take us long to get anything done? A lot of people who originally supported HS2 are now having doubts about it.
Trains also ran from Hiroshima the day after the bomb was dropped .
Except if the Deal passes the backstop will be legally binding in international law, Boris can try and change the Political Declaration for the future relationship but that is not the same thing
Once you are out you can do what you wish, you are sovereign. You can be reasonable and give notice you wish to leave whatever agreement you have entered.
Except if the Deal passes the backstop will be legally binding in international law, Boris can try and change the Political Declaration for the future relationship but that is not the same thing
Once you are out you can do what you wish, you are sovereign. You can be reasonable and give notice you wish to leave whatever agreement you have entered.
Yes but not if it is not a binding international Treaty as the backstop would then be
"However, the capacity it delivers on intercity and capacity it frees up on the existing network for more services could only be matched by two brand new north-south motorways – a prospect no one has yet put to members. ”
Not going for the green vote then!
A slower railway with stops at some new towns may well be better environmentally and economically.
For a very long time the Greens called for High Speed rail. Seem to have forgotten this in last few years.
High speed rail is intrinsically less energy efficient as resistance rises geometrically. Also engineering costs are much higher than conventional high speed lines. Stops for people to get off are also useful except for those wanting to travel only from megacity centre to megacity 2 centre.
The argument was that HS replaced flights within UK.
By the time you factor in boarding and unboarding, the time on a conventional intercity line and flying between British cities is much the same already, and it is easier to work on a train.
Except if the Deal passes the backstop will be legally binding in international law, Boris can try and change the Political Declaration for the future relationship but that is not the same thing
Once you are out you can do what you wish, you are sovereign. You can be reasonable and give notice you wish to leave whatever agreement you have entered.
We’ll be no more or less sovereign in that sense than we are now.
"However, the capacity it delivers on intercity and capacity it frees up on the existing network for more services could only be matched by two brand new north-south motorways – a prospect no one has yet put to members. ”
Not going for the green vote then!
A slower railway with stops at some new towns may well be better environmentally and economically.
For a very long time the Greens called for High Speed rail. Seem to have forgotten this in last few years.
High speed rail is intrinsically less energy efficient as resistance rises geometrically. Also engineering costs are much higher than conventional high speed lines. Stops for people to get off are also useful except for those wanting to travel only from megacity centre to megacity 2 centre.
In Japan they built the equivalent of HS2 in 1964 despite having been comprehensively defeated in war 19 years earlier. Why does it take us long to get anything done? A lot of people who originally supported HS2 are now having doubts about it.
Probably for the same reason that Germany were able to re-emerge as a major industrial power - they had a wrecked country where they could rebuild from scratch without having to worry about carving up existing communities. They also had massive backing from the allied powers looking to rebuild them as a bulwark against communism.
"However, the capacity it delivers on intercity and capacity it frees up on the existing network for more services could only be matched by two brand new north-south motorways – a prospect no one has yet put to members. ”
Not going for the green vote then!
A slower railway with stops at some new towns may well be better environmentally and economically.
For a very long time the Greens called for High Speed rail. Seem to have forgotten this in last few years.
High speed rail is intrinsically less energy efficient as resistance rises geometrically. Also engineering costs are much higher than conventional high speed lines. Stops for people to get off are also useful except for those wanting to travel only from megacity centre to megacity 2 centre.
In Japan they built the equivalent of HS2 in 1964 despite having been comprehensively defeated in war 19 years earlier. Why does it take us long to get anything done? A lot of people who originally supported HS2 are now having doubts about it.
Nearly all advanced (and aspiring) countries apart from the US have invested heavily in high speed rail in recent decades. China has built 25000 km of high speed lines since 2008. It seems very unlikely that all of these countries are wrong, high speed rail can be powered by low carbon energy and beats flying over shorter distances.
"However, the capacity it delivers on intercity and capacity it frees up on the existing network for more services could only be matched by two brand new north-south motorways – a prospect no one has yet put to members. ”
Not going for the green vote then!
A slower railway with stops at some new towns may well be better environmentally and economically.
For a very long time the Greens called for High Speed rail. Seem to have forgotten this in last few years.
High speed rail is intrinsically less energy efficient as resistance rises geometrically. Also engineering costs are much higher than conventional high speed lines. Stops for people to get off are also useful except for those wanting to travel only from megacity centre to megacity 2 centre.
In Japan they built the equivalent of HS2 in 1964 despite having been comprehensively defeated in war 19 years earlier. Why does it take us long to get anything done? A lot of people who originally supported HS2 are now having doubts about it.
Probably for the same reason that Germany were able to re-emerge as a major industrial power - they had a wrecked country where they could rebuild from scratch without having to worry about carving up existing communities. They also had massive backing from the allied powers looking to rebuild them as a bulwark against communism.
I fear we need a bulwark against communism urgently.
"However, the capacity it delivers on intercity and capacity it frees up on the existing network for more services could only be matched by two brand new north-south motorways – a prospect no one has yet put to members. ”
Not going for the green vote then!
A slower railway with stops at some new towns may well be better environmentally and economically.
For a very long time the Greens called for High Speed rail. Seem to have forgotten this in last few years.
High speed rail is intrinsically less energy efficient as resistance rises geometrically. Also engineering costs are much higher than conventional high speed lines. Stops for people to get off are also useful except for those wanting to travel only from megacity centre to megacity 2 centre.
In Japan they built the equivalent of HS2 in 1964 despite having been comprehensively defeated in war 19 years earlier. Why does it take us long to get anything done? A lot of people who originally supported HS2 are now having doubts about it.
Nearly all advanced (and aspiring) countries apart from the US have invested heavily in high speed rail in recent decades. China has built 25000 km of high speed lines since 2008. It seems very unlikely that all of these countries are wrong, high speed rail can be powered by low carbon energy and beats flying over shorter distances.
Most of those countries are significantly larger and less crowded than the UK. In China or even Japan it makes sense. In the UK it does not. It is the wrong answer to the problem.
If only the media discourse was this...tim pool respectfully disagreeing with madjid nawaz about carl benjamins 3 years old in poor taste attempt at a jimmy carr style joke.
Wasn't the issue that she was doing it where it was illegal?
I am sure the same people making a joke out of it would also make a joke out of things like speeding..right ....owen jones not known for this pious apprpach to things he doesnt like.
I have this funny feeling if a tory had been caught breaking the law he would be banging on about how rich toffs think the law is only for the little people etc etc etc
Lawless probably understates the conduct of British forces in Basra. At one point in the first Battle of Basra the SCOTS DG were simultaneously firing on the Iraqi Army, Fedayeen, Iranian Border Guards and their own side. It was complete mayhem. We blew up their power and water supplies, set fire to the library and then wondered why the Basrans weren't chuffed to see us.
Jesus. Is that their idea of a "big idea"? How much has already been spent? An open goal if they try to point out the absence of a magic money tree.
But there are far better ways to get that extra capacity than HS2. The capacity issues are primarily on short distance journeys around metropolitan centres. They should be looking at ways to massively increase capacity between the northern cities and the shorter commuter journeys into London. HS2 certainly won't help the first of those and will only make a marginal difference to the second.
Coming late to the party, but:
"But there are far better ways to get that extra capacity than HS2."
No Richard, there really are not. You need to read the relevant reports and understand them. Fixing another issue is not fixing the issue HS2 is designed to fix.
In addition: yes, there are other capacity problems. But they're being looked into as well: just look at the billions being spent on (say) the London Bridge works as part of Thameslink, the upgrades in the north (which are going on, despite what TSE says), or, even thee regional £200 million recently spent on Derby.
"However, the capacity it delivers on intercity and capacity it frees up on the existing network for more services could only be matched by two brand new north-south motorways – a prospect no one has yet put to members. ”
Not going for the green vote then!
A slower railway with stops at some new towns may well be better environmentally and economically.
For a very long time the Greens called for High Speed rail. Seem to have forgotten this in last few years.
Yes: it's utterly hypocritical of the Greens. They campaign for something for decades, then when it's on the horizon, they realise there's more votes in campaigning against it for reasons that have not changed in all that time.
Comments
Night all.
Her successor will confront the same problem.
Only worse, as farage will have by then demonstrated his power to convert 'tory' voters wholesale.
The WA is dead
Boris Johnson is Tory councillors preferred choice to succeed May with 23%, Gove is second on 14% and Hunt third on 12%
https://twitter.com/andywigmore/status/1119724963135721479?s=20
However ,when it comes to sinking large sums of cash into doomed projects , then thinking better of it, the Tories are displaying recidivist tendencies .
https://twitter.com/peoplesvote_uk/status/1114505484877336576
May knows that and will force MPs to decide
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8905958/jeremy-corbyn-blasted-video-mocking-captured-sas-iraq/
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8906312/yellow-vests-paris-notre-dame/
https://youtu.be/7Q935VheQgU
On that happy note, good night all!
I have this funny feeling if a tory had been caught breaking the law he would be banging on about how rich toffs think the law is only for the little people etc etc etc
"But there are far better ways to get that extra capacity than HS2."
No Richard, there really are not. You need to read the relevant reports and understand them. Fixing another issue is not fixing the issue HS2 is designed to fix.
In addition: yes, there are other capacity problems. But they're being looked into as well: just look at the billions being spent on (say) the London Bridge works as part of Thameslink, the upgrades in the north (which are going on, despite what TSE says), or, even thee regional £200 million recently spent on Derby.
It's not an either-or.