What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.
If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
Indeed. Green does truly appear to have been driven mad by recent political trends. Goodwin's tweet yesterday was far more balanced and realistic.
What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.
If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
But in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and even the 90s and the 00s you would not have heard MPs publicly accusing their opponents of treachery or praying in aid "the will of the people" in an attempt to circumvent parliamentary democracy.
The nineties and the noughties were a quiet period.
Prior to that, post war, politicians like Aneurin Bevan, Manny Shinwell, Ian Paisley, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell, Ken Livingstone etc. uttered some very hardline rhetoric about their opponents, eg "lower than vermin", "the enemy within". The most horrible comments were made about Wilson, Heath, and Thatcher.
I do not recall accusations of treachery being made against Wilson, Heath or Thatcher and nor do I recall anyone accusing them of behaving in a way which threatened democracy itself.
How often were referendum votes not implemented back then?
I hope neither the Brexit party nor Change UK are overpromising and underdelivering on the big name candidates. If the best that either of them end up offering are the equivalent of Latoya Jackson and the sports guy off Breakfast News, they're not going to have done themselves any favours.
The Brexit Party have got Britains most influential post war politician, hard to beat that 😊
I know Nige is forever disinterring Thatch metaphorically, but has he actually gone and done it literally?
I hope neither the Brexit party nor Change UK are overpromising and underdelivering on the big name candidates. If the best that either of them end up offering are the equivalent of Latoya Jackson and the sports guy off Breakfast News, they're not going to have done themselves any favours.
The Brexit Party have got Britains most influential post war politician, hard to beat that 😊
I know Nige is forever disinterring Thatch metaphorically, but has he actually gone and done it literally?
I hope neither the Brexit party nor Change UK are overpromising and underdelivering on the big name candidates. If the best that either of them end up offering are the equivalent of Latoya Jackson and the sports guy off Breakfast News, they're not going to have done themselves any favours.
CHUK seems to be in imminent danger of becoming the Conservative party that Cameron and Osborne always dreamed of.
It's a pretty decent niche, especially when the Conservative Party finishes vacating it, as it probably will do after TMay.
What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.
If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
But in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and even the 90s and the 00s you would not have heard MPs publicly accusing their opponents of treachery or praying in aid "the will of the people" in an attempt to circumvent parliamentary democracy.
The nineties and the noughties were a quiet period.
Prior to that, post war, politicians like Aneurin Bevan, Manny Shinwell, Ian Paisley, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell, Ken Livingstone etc. uttered some very hardline rhetoric about their opponents, eg "lower than vermin", "the enemy within". The most horrible comments were made about Wilson, Heath, and Thatcher.
I do not recall accusations of treachery being made against Wilson, Heath or Thatcher and nor do I recall anyone accusing them of behaving in a way which threatened democracy itself.
How often were referendum votes not implemented back then?
Lady Haw Haw gives CCHQ position, Now is not the time we are fixing Brexit don't you know.
Now we can all come up with amusing characterisations based on Party affiliation - I could call you Gorbals of the ScotsNazis - it’s not really worth dropping into the gutter. If she is wrong then tell her. Carlotta probably get her opinions from CCHQ is about as likely as you getting your opinions from a can of Irn Bru
Given I have no connection with Glasgow/Gorbals at all and have never in my life had Irn Bru so that would make you a nutjob. Carlotta on the other hand is a CCHQ mouthpiece.
Sadly I have a soft spot for Irn Bru. It is the only carbonated drink I like. All the better as the sugar free version actually tastes the same as the full fat version.
What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.
If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
But in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and even the 90s and the 00s you would not have heard MPs publicly accusing their opponents of treachery or praying in aid "the will of the people" in an attempt to circumvent parliamentary democracy.
The nineties and the noughties were a quiet period.
Prior to that, post war, politicians like Aneurin Bevan, Manny Shinwell, Ian Paisley, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell, Ken Livingstone etc. uttered some very hardline rhetoric about their opponents, eg "lower than vermin", "the enemy within". The most horrible comments were made about Wilson, Heath, and Thatcher.
I do not recall accusations of treachery being made against Wilson, Heath or Thatcher and nor do I recall anyone accusing them of behaving in a way which threatened democracy itself.
How often were referendum votes not implemented back then?
At least once.
Oh really, which one?
What would you think if Yes had won in 2014, you weren’t independent by 2017 & Westminster was hellbent on having a second go at it, with only half the yes vote on the ballot?
What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.
If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
That's right. There is a world of difference between 'a bit rubbish and not improving anywhere near quickly enough' and any form of totalitarianism.
What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.
If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
But in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and even the 90s and the 00s you would not have heard MPs publicly accusing their opponents of treachery or praying in aid "the will of the people" in an attempt to circumvent parliamentary democracy.
The nineties and the noughties were a quiet period.
Prior to that, post war, politicians like Aneurin Bevan, Manny Shinwell, Ian Paisley, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell, Ken Livingstone etc. uttered some very hardline rhetoric about their opponents, eg "lower than vermin", "the enemy within". The most horrible comments were made about Wilson, Heath, and Thatcher.
I do not recall accusations of treachery being made against Wilson, Heath or Thatcher and nor do I recall anyone accusing them of behaving in a way which threatened democracy itself.
How often were referendum votes not implemented back then?
At least once.
Oh really, which one?
What would you think if Yes had won in 2014, you weren’t independent by 2017 & Westminster was hellbent on having a second go at it, with only half the yes vote on the ballot?
Do you want the Provisions of the Scotland Act 1978 to be put into effect?
What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.
If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
But in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and even the 90s and the 00s you would not have heard MPs publicly accusing their opponents of treachery or praying in aid "the will of the people" in an attempt to circumvent parliamentary democracy.
The nineties and the noughties were a quiet period.
Prior to that, post war, politicians like Aneurin Bevan, Manny Shinwell, Ian Paisley, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell, Ken Livingstone etc. uttered some very hardline rhetoric about their opponents, eg "lower than vermin", "the enemy within". The most horrible comments were made about Wilson, Heath, and Thatcher.
I do not recall accusations of treachery being made against Wilson, Heath or Thatcher and nor do I recall anyone accusing them of behaving in a way which threatened democracy itself.
How often were referendum votes not implemented back then?
At least once.
Oh really, which one?
What would you think if Yes had won in 2014, you weren’t independent by 2017 & Westminster was hellbent on having a second go at it, with only half the yes vote on the ballot?
What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.
If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
But in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and even the 90s and the 00s you would not have heard MPs publicly accusing their opponents of treachery or praying in aid "the will of the people" in an attempt to circumvent parliamentary democracy.
The nineties and the noughties were a quiet period.
Prior to that, post war, politicians like Aneurin Bevan, Manny Shinwell, Ian Paisley, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell, Ken Livingstone etc. uttered some very hardline rhetoric about their opponents, eg "lower than vermin", "the enemy within". The most horrible comments were made about Wilson, Heath, and Thatcher.
I do not recall accusations of treachery being made against Wilson, Heath or Thatcher and nor do I recall anyone accusing them of behaving in a way which threatened democracy itself.
How often were referendum votes not implemented back then?
At least once.
Oh really, which one?
What would you think if Yes had won in 2014, you weren’t independent by 2017 & Westminster was hellbent on having a second go at it, with only half the yes vote on the ballot?
Do you want the Provisions of the Scotland Act 1978 to be put into effect?
What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.
If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
But in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and even the 90s and the 00s you would not have heard MPs publicly accusing their opponents of treachery or praying in aid "the will of the people" in an attempt to circumvent parliamentary democracy.
The nineties and the noughties were a quiet period.
Prior to that, post war, politicians like Aneurin Bevan, Manny Shinwell, Ian Paisley, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell, Ken Livingstone etc. uttered some very hardline rhetoric about their opponents, eg "lower than vermin", "the enemy within". The most horrible comments were made about Wilson, Heath, and Thatcher.
I do not recall accusations of treachery being made against Wilson, Heath or Thatcher and nor do I recall anyone accusing them of behaving in a way which threatened democracy itself.
How often were referendum votes not implemented back then?
Well Labour was happy to ignore the 1976 result when drawing up its manifesto for the 1983 election. And I don't recall anyone objecting to them doing so. So it would seem that a referendum result has a fairly short shelf life in our unwritten constitution.
'Legal aid has been granted for Shamima Begum - who joined the Islamic State group aged 15 - to fight the decision to revoke her UK citizenship.'
Which, given the restrictions on legal aid, and the difficulties some people have as a result, I find surprising.
If we restrict legal aid to only people we judge worthy, are we not prejudging the case?
Hers is an important case. Is it legal for the government to render a citizen stateless by decree?
I didn't think that was what the case was about. I thought the question was whether she would in fact be made stateless, and even if she wouldn't be had all the correct processes been followed in an appropriate way. It wasn't about being made stateless by decree IIRC, since the point of contention is that she would not be stateless, depsite what the Bangladeshi authorities say, not that revoking her citizenship by decree is illegal?
But given how many people moaned about their being no legal process for what happened to her, even though there was, and we are seeing that ongoing now, and how outrageous it was for a politician to have this power even though they've had it and used it for ages, there's no doubt plenty of confusion.
I have no issue with her getting legal aid. She's obviously a contemptable person, but if she qualifies for it then that is that.
Actually, I don't have a problem with her sorting out her legal position, and I see no reason why she shouldn't get legal aid. My concerns that so many others who have good cases are denied it.
In fairness I didn't see any judgement in your post, but Foxy seemed to see something sinister in it, which given his views that being opposed to suggestions that MPs' votes should be secret is on a slippery slope to wanting to murder MPs, may be more on him than you.
I don't think i have ever expressed a view on secrecy or otherwise of MPs ballots. Perhaps you have me confused with another poster.
As far as Ms Begum is concerned, I merely support the rule of law. The Secret Barrister outlines it well.
What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.
If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
But in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and even the 90s and the 00s you would not have heard MPs publicly accusing their opponents of treachery or praying in aid "the will of the people" in an attempt to circumvent parliamentary democracy.
The nineties and the noughties were a quiet period.
Prior to that, post war, politicians like Aneurin Bevan, Manny Shinwell, Ian Paisley, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell, Ken Livingstone etc. uttered some very hardline rhetoric about their opponents, eg "lower than vermin", "the enemy within". The most horrible comments were made about Wilson, Heath, and Thatcher.
I do not recall accusations of treachery being made against Wilson, Heath or Thatcher and nor do I recall anyone accusing them of behaving in a way which threatened democracy itself.
So you’ve forgotten the Heseltine Mace swinging incident? Where the government “cheated” to win a vote?
'Legal aid has been granted for Shamima Begum - who joined the Islamic State group aged 15 - to fight the decision to revoke her UK citizenship.'
Which, given the restrictions on legal aid, and the difficulties some people have as a result, I find surprising.
If we restrict legal aid to only people we judge worthy, are we not prejudging the case?
Hers is an important case. Is it legal for the government to render a citizen stateless by decree?
I didn't think that was what the case was about. I thought the question was whether she would in fact be made stateless, and even if she wouldn't be had all the correct processes been followed in an appropriate way. It wasn't about being made stateless by decree IIRC, since the point of contention is that she would not be stateless, depsite what the Bangladeshi authorities say, not that revoking her citizenship by decree is illegal?
But given how many people moaned about their being no legal process for what happened to her, even though there was, and we are seeing that ongoing now, and how outrageous it was for a politician to have this power even though they've had it and used it for ages, there's no doubt plenty of confusion.
I have no issue with her getting legal aid. She's obviously a contemptable person, but if she qualifies for it then that is that.
Actually, I don't have a problem with her sorting out her legal position, and I see no reason why she shouldn't get legal aid. My concerns that so many others who have good cases are denied it.
In fairness I didn't see any judgement in your post, but Foxy seemed to see something sinister in it, which given his views that being opposed to suggestions that MPs' votes should be secret is on a slippery slope to wanting to murder MPs, may be more on him than you.
I don't think i have ever expressed a view on secrecy or otherwise of MPs ballots. Perhaps you have me confused with another poster.
No I have not. I expressed a view on the secret MPs ballots in response to a suggestion that would unlock the Brexit mess, that it should not be done even if they found the pressure difficult, and you then provided a link to a far right person plotting to murder an MP, and suggested there was a link between what I'd said and that, all 'this is where that kind of talk leads'.
What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.
If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
But in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and even the 90s and the 00s you would not have heard MPs publicly accusing their opponents of treachery or praying in aid "the will of the people" in an attempt to circumvent parliamentary democracy.
The nineties and the noughties were a quiet period.
Prior to that, post war, politicians like Aneurin Bevan, Manny Shinwell, Ian Paisley, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell, Ken Livingstone etc. uttered some very hardline rhetoric about their opponents, eg "lower than vermin", "the enemy within". The most horrible comments were made about Wilson, Heath, and Thatcher.
I do not recall accusations of treachery being made against Wilson, Heath or Thatcher and nor do I recall anyone accusing them of behaving in a way which threatened democracy itself.
Wilson was rumoured to be a Soviet spy. Frequently.
What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.
If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
But in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and even the 90s and the 00s you would not have heard MPs publicly accusing their opponents of treachery or praying in aid "the will of the people" in an attempt to circumvent parliamentary democracy.
The nineties and the noughties were a quiet period.
Prior to that, post war, politicians like Aneurin Bevan, Manny Shinwell, Ian Paisley, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell, Ken Livingstone etc. uttered some very hardline rhetoric about their opponents, eg "lower than vermin", "the enemy within". The most horrible comments were made about Wilson, Heath, and Thatcher.
I do not recall accusations of treachery being made against Wilson, Heath or Thatcher and nor do I recall anyone accusing them of behaving in a way which threatened democracy itself.
There was a huge amount of it which clearly you have blanked out. It was certainly common amongst the 'artistic' and intelligensia communities at the time. The most obvious example was V for Vendetta which Alan Moore claimed was a direct response to the election of Thatcher.
Comments
What would you think if Yes had won in 2014, you weren’t independent by 2017 & Westminster was hellbent on having a second go at it, with only half the yes vote on the ballot?
Yes 51.62%
No 48.38%
Yes 51.62%
No 48.38%
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35756258
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33519258