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  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,902

    stodge said:

    They do. We do different here

    I used to enjoy a drink or two at the Trowel & Hammer in the Unthank Road many moons ago.
    Do you mean the trowel and hammer on st Stephens?
    I drank in it a lot when it went through a phase as an Irish pub called Finnegans Wake. My gf and I would spend all day Saturday getting off our faces in there. Its back as the T and H now, played in thd pool league there a few times recently
    Yes, right at the end of one of the long roads from the ring road into the city. I frequented the place (with friends) in the early 80s. Drink followed by a curry or Chinese was a regular Friday/Saturday night activity. I lived in a house in the Unthank Road and we would cycle down there and usually walk back.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,483
    Just seen this on the BEEB.

    'Legal aid has been granted for Shamima Begum - who joined the Islamic State group aged 15 - to fight the decision to revoke her UK citizenship.'

    Which, given the restrictions on legal aid, and the difficulties some people have as a result, I find surprising.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    isam said:

    Incidentally Nige's clear purple water thing last week was that the Brexit Party, unlike UKIP, would reject candidates/members with previous links to far right parties. Does UKIP Fash 2.0 count as a far right party?

    Obviously, that does not include Nigel himself.


    Which far right party was he in that is proscribed by his current one?

    No idea. I was responding to a post that was talking about links.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741
    mwadams said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Roger said:

    Quite happy to accommodate UKIP's association with Tommy Robinson, them heading down the electoral toilet pan not so much.
    So it's the Tommy R Party Versus Big Nige.

    That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
    One reason I think we are safe its this: in 1933 the Hitler Youth had 2.3m members. I don't think a serious fascist party can get by without a really substantial youth element, since kicking foreigners needs youthful strength and energy. So the average ukipper agree needs to fall by about 40 years before we have a problem.
    Beautifully put. Also I don't think the average UKipper is a fascist, some undoubtedly are, but doubt its the majority.
    Although it would not be unreasonable to compare the situtation here and elsewhere with that of 1927-1930, on the rise to power (polling between 3% and 18%), rather than 1933 where they are basically consolidating their grip.

    I agree, that it is counterproductive to draw these comparisons without nuance. And David Lammy is nothing if not "without nuance". On the other hand, pointing out when people are using the language of the far right (however they intend it to be interpreted) and promoting the utterances of those who avowedly are on the far right, is important; and we have been letting that slide for too long (whichever party it comes from).
    Yes, the turmoil of the later Weimar republic is perhaps a better analogy, not least as the left wing populists were pretty evenly matched with the right wing populists at the time.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Incidentally Nige's clear purple water thing last week was that the Brexit Party, unlike UKIP, would reject candidates/members with previous links to far right parties. Does UKIP Fash 2.0 count as a far right party?

    Obviously, that does not include Nigel himself.


    Which far right party was he in that is proscribed by his current one?

    No idea. I was responding to a post that was talking about links.

    Oh the SS then! 😂
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    edited April 2019
    Foxy said:

    mwadams said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Roger said:

    Quite happy to accommodate UKIP's association with Tommy Robinson, them heading down the electoral toilet pan not so much.
    So it's the Tommy R Party Versus Big Nige.

    That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
    One reason I think we are safe its this: in 1933 the Hitler Youth had 2.3m members. I don't think a serious fascist party can get by without a really substantial youth element, since kicking foreigners needs youthful strength and energy. So the average ukipper agree needs to fall by about 40 years before we have a problem.
    Beautifully put. Also I don't think the average UKipper is a fascist, some undoubtedly are, but doubt its the majority.
    Although it would not be unreasonable to compare the situtation here and elsewhere with that of 1927-1930, on the rise to power (polling between 3% and 18%), rather than 1933 where they are basically consolidating their grip.

    I agree, that it is counterproductive to draw these comparisons without nuance. And David Lammy is nothing if not "without nuance". On the other hand, pointing out when people are using the language of the far right (however they intend it to be interpreted) and promoting the utterances of those who avowedly are on the far right, is important; and we have been letting that slide for too long (whichever party it comes from).
    Yes, the turmoil of the later Weimar republic is perhaps a better analogy, not least as the left wing populists were pretty evenly matched with the right wing populists at the time.
    The later Weimar Republic was still far more violent and economically unstable than our own society. Even the Liberals had their own paramilitary organisation.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    LOL. With apologies for bringing the tone down, she might comment that she left a Boris Johnson in there.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,483

    isam said:

    Incidentally Nige's clear purple water thing last week was that the Brexit Party, unlike UKIP, would reject candidates/members with previous links to far right parties. Does UKIP Fash 2.0 count as a far right party?

    Obviously, that does not include Nigel himself.


    Which far right party was he in that is proscribed by his current one?

    No idea. I was responding to a post that was talking about links.

    Well, he was, I understand a Young Conservative. But he was in UKIP pretty soon after it started, although according to Wikipedia he supported the Greens at one time.
    He wasn't a nice guy to work with/for, I understand.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    They do. We do different here

    I used to enjoy a drink or two at the Trowel & Hammer in the Unthank Road many moons ago.
    Do you mean the trowel and hammer on st Stephens?
    I drank in it a lot when it went through a phase as an Irish pub called Finnegans Wake. My gf and I would spend all day Saturday getting off our faces in there. Its back as the T and H now, played in thd pool league there a few times recently
    Yes, right at the end of one of the long roads from the ring road into the city. I frequented the place (with friends) in the early 80s. Drink followed by a curry or Chinese was a regular Friday/Saturday night activity. I lived in a house in the Unthank Road and we would cycle down there and usually walk back.
    Yep it's the A11 basically, the London Road, after the old hospital it becomes Newmarket Road (forking to Ipswich Road) all part of the golden triangle in which I currently live
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741

    Just seen this on the BEEB.

    'Legal aid has been granted for Shamima Begum - who joined the Islamic State group aged 15 - to fight the decision to revoke her UK citizenship.'

    Which, given the restrictions on legal aid, and the difficulties some people have as a result, I find surprising.

    If we restrict legal aid to only people we judge worthy, are we not prejudging the case?

    Hers is an important case. Is it legal for the government to render a citizen stateless by decree?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Scott_P said:
    That's actually quite funny for once.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Now we seem to be living under a permanent Godwins Law, is there a name for the occasions where people say someone right of centre isn’t a Nazi?
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329

    Mr. Nakht, yeah. Overuse of the most extreme categorisations/insults effectively dilutes them significantly, even rendering them meaningless.

    We see similar things with terms like sexism, racism, or human rights violations. The later is incredibly important but it's been used on such a broad basis (from condemning the evil UK for evicting squatters from Dale Farm which they'd illegally occupied for a decade all the way to North Korean concentration camps) it's all but meaningless.

    Look forward to similar strictures against blanket use of antisemitism, terrorist sympathiser, Stalinist, Leninist, Marxist etc. I'd hate to think anyone on here was diluting themselves into meaninglessness.
    Going on the dictionary definition of fascism https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/fascism

    Very Powerful leader
    State Control
    Extreme Pride in Country or Race
    Political opposition is not allowed.

    If anyone thinks that is any current member of the Tory party then they are plain wrong. I think Labour are skirting close to ticking 1, 2 and 4, and the Brexit Party 1 and 3 maybe 4.

    We are used to using fascist in other spheres e.g. grammar fascist or Nazi. But when the subject is political it is unfair to use the term unless it is truly necessary.

    Whereas Marxism is a philosophy so I think can be used, and lots of people associated with Labour would describe themselves as Marxists. Leninism and Stalinism are more pragmatic outworkings of left wing thinking so less applicable.

    Terrorist sympathiser is surely an apt description where someone sympathises with terrorists. Recently the comments of Shamima Begum were those of a terrorist sympathiser. You could also say that those who supported Mandela and the ANC in the Apartheid struggle were terrorist sympathiser because the ANC was a non state actor trying to achieve its aims through terrorism.

    Finally Antisemitism. I won’t comment on Labour but again a dictionary definition. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/anti-semitism?q=anti-Semitism
    Where we can ascribe a strong dislike of Jews it is only right to describe someone as antisemtic. Perhaps a better word would be Judeophobe to go alongside Islamophobe.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,913
    The world's smartest man offers some free advice to Boeing.

    What do I know about branding, maybe nothing (but I did become President!), but if I were Boeing, I would FIX the Boeing 737 MAX, add some additional great features, & REBRAND the plane with a new name.
    No product has suffered like this one. But again, what the hell do I know?

    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) 15 April 2019
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited April 2019
    Foxy said:

    Just seen this on the BEEB.

    'Legal aid has been granted for Shamima Begum - who joined the Islamic State group aged 15 - to fight the decision to revoke her UK citizenship.'

    Which, given the restrictions on legal aid, and the difficulties some people have as a result, I find surprising.

    If we restrict legal aid to only people we judge worthy, are we not prejudging the case?

    Hers is an important case. Is it legal for the government to render a citizen stateless by decree?
    I didn't think that was what the case was about. I thought the question was whether she would in fact be made stateless, and even if she wouldn't be had all the correct processes been followed in an appropriate way. It wasn't about being made stateless by decree IIRC, since the point of contention is that she would not be stateless, depsite what the Bangladeshi authorities say, not that revoking her citizenship by decree is illegal?

    But given how many people moaned about their being no legal process for what happened to her, even though there was, and we are seeing that ongoing now, and how outrageous it was for a politician to have this power even though they've had it and used it for ages, there's no doubt plenty of confusion.

    I have no issue with her getting legal aid. She's obviously a contemptable person, but if she qualifies for it then that is that.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Not sure how you get the WAIB through before May 22nd .

    The WA took around 50 working days to pass through the Commons and the HOL . The WAIB is likely to be very controversial and to have loads of amendments trying to be added to it .

    Next week is unlikely to have that bill introduced so that means effectively early May and that will leave just three weeks .

    The government needs to stop peddling the fantasy that EU elections won’t happen.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    MaxPB said:

    Genuinely great news on roasting the scumbag landlords, unfortunately any moves we make on this will be drowned out by not actually getting brexit done. Still, a great move.

    Will be interesting to see if Labour support these moves with their votes in the HoC. And others including the SNP.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    Lady Haw Haw gives CCHQ position, Now is not the time we are fixing Brexit don't you know.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741
    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    mwadams said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Roger said:

    Quite happy to accommodate UKIP's association with Tommy Robinson, them heading down the electoral toilet pan not so much.
    So it's the Tommy R Party Versus Big Nige.

    That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
    One reason I think we are safe its this: in 1933 the Hitler Youth had 2.3m members. I don't think a serious fascist party can get by without a really substantial youth element, since kicking foreigners needs youthful strength and energy. So the average ukipper agree needs to fall by about 40 years before we have a problem.
    Beautifully put. Also I don't think the average UKipper is a fascist, some undoubtedly are, but doubt its the majority.
    Although it would not be unreasonable to compare the situtation here and elsewhere with that of 1927-1930, on the rise to power (polling between 3% and 18%), rather than 1933 where they are basically consolidating their grip.

    I agree, that it is counterproductive to draw these comparisons without nuance. And David Lammy is nothing if not "without nuance". On the other hand, pointing out when people are using the language of the far right (however they intend it to be interpreted) and promoting the utterances of those who avowedly are on the far right, is important; and we have been letting that slide for too long (whichever party it comes from).
    Yes, the turmoil of the later Weimar republic is perhaps a better analogy, not least as the left wing populists were pretty evenly matched with the right wing populists at the time.
    The later Weimar Republic was still far more violent and economically unstable than our own society. Even the Liberals had their own paramilitary organisation.
    Sure, no historical analogy is absolute. Farage is no Hitler, though the rhetorhic of right wing populists does have some echoes.

    I am slightly sceptical about revolutions only happening when there are loads of twenty year olds, after all the population structure of the world has been that there has been an abundance of these throughout most human history. The present demographics worldwide have changed of course, apart from some bits of africa.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    nico67 said:

    Not sure how you get the WAIB through before May 22nd .

    The WA took around 50 working days to pass through the Commons and the HOL . The WAIB is likely to be very controversial and to have loads of amendments trying to be added to it .

    Next week is unlikely to have that bill introduced so that means effectively early May and that will leave just three weeks .

    The government needs to stop peddling the fantasy that EU elections won’t happen.

    It's just unconvincing face saving, mostly to remind people they don't want the elections so please don't blame them that they are happening.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    nico67 said:

    The government needs to stop peddling the fantasy that EU elections won’t happen.

    They have a duty of care to Iain Duncan Smith and need to let him adjust in his own time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Good news then, the Tories will be able to rely on SNP votes to see this through if they do propose it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,006
    isam said:

    Now we seem to be living under a permanent Godwins Law, is there a name for the occasions where people say someone right of centre isn’t a Nazi?

    While you're looking, can you check for the word describing a Nazi that claims to be right of centre?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2019
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    https://twitter.com/DaveHiggensPA/status/1117740770461716480?s=19

    Man of the people In his shirt and slacks in a land canoe. With an inflatable vest.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    isam said:
    Whilst that is my favourite video of David Lammy, I don’t think it makes him a nutter. It is more comic in a The Thick of It way.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    mwadams said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Roger said:

    Quite happy to accommodate UKIP's association with Tommy Robinson, them heading down the electoral toilet pan not so much.
    So it's the Tommy R Party Versus Big Nige.

    That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
    One reason I think we are safe its this: in 1933 the Hitler Youth had 2.3m members. I don't think a serious fascist party can get by without a really substantial youth element, since kicking foreigners needs youthful strength and energy. So the average ukipper agree needs to fall by about 40 years before we have a problem.
    Beautifully put. Also I don't think the average UKipper is a fascist, some undoubtedly are, but doubt its the majority.
    Although it would not be unreasonable to compare the situtation here and elsewhere with that of 1927-1930, on the rise to power (polling between 3% and 18%), rather than 1933 where they are basically consolidating their grip.

    I agree, that it is counterproductive to draw these comparisons without nuance. And David Lammy is nothing if not "without nuance". On the other hand, pointing out when people are using the language of the far right (however they intend it to be interpreted) and promoting the utterances of those who avowedly are on the far right, is important; and we have been letting that slide for too long (whichever party it comes from).
    Yes, the turmoil of the later Weimar republic is perhaps a better analogy, not least as the left wing populists were pretty evenly matched with the right wing populists at the time.
    The later Weimar Republic was still far more violent and economically unstable than our own society. Even the Liberals had their own paramilitary organisation.
    The Liberals in Germany are like pro-business free market tories and unlike Liberal Democrats in the in the UK or the "liberals" in the US.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,483
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Just seen this on the BEEB.

    'Legal aid has been granted for Shamima Begum - who joined the Islamic State group aged 15 - to fight the decision to revoke her UK citizenship.'

    Which, given the restrictions on legal aid, and the difficulties some people have as a result, I find surprising.

    If we restrict legal aid to only people we judge worthy, are we not prejudging the case?

    Hers is an important case. Is it legal for the government to render a citizen stateless by decree?
    I didn't think that was what the case was about. I thought the question was whether she would in fact be made stateless, and even if she wouldn't be had all the correct processes been followed in an appropriate way. It wasn't about being made stateless by decree IIRC, since the point of contention is that she would not be stateless, depsite what the Bangladeshi authorities say, not that revoking her citizenship by decree is illegal?

    But given how many people moaned about their being no legal process for what happened to her, even though there was, and we are seeing that ongoing now, and how outrageous it was for a politician to have this power even though they've had it and used it for ages, there's no doubt plenty of confusion.

    I have no issue with her getting legal aid. She's obviously a contemptable person, but if she qualifies for it then that is that.
    Actually, I don't have a problem with her sorting out her legal position, and I see no reason why she shouldn't get legal aid. My concerns that so many others who have good cases are denied it.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006

    isam said:
    Whilst that is my favourite video of David Lammy, I don’t think it makes him a nutter. It is more comic in a The Thick of It way.
    I think his Trumpian use of twitter makes him a touch dangerous. Accuracy and honesty dont matter, if you are on his side you retweet and like. He can get 20k likes on something clearly wrong, and the rebuttals get a few hundred. Job done.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    edited April 2019
    TGOHF said:

    MaxPB said:

    Genuinely great news on roasting the scumbag landlords, unfortunately any moves we make on this will be drowned out by not actually getting brexit done. Still, a great move.

    Will be interesting to see if Labour support these moves with their votes in the HoC. And others including the SNP.

    It is England only so SNP will not vote on it, they have principles and morals. Already enacted in Scotland. They get easily confused between England and UK as they think England is the UK.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    glw said:

    The world's smartest man offers some free advice to Boeing.

    What do I know about branding, maybe nothing (but I did become President!), but if I were Boeing, I would FIX the Boeing 737 MAX, add some additional great features, & REBRAND the plane with a new name.
    No product has suffered like this one. But again, what the hell do I know?

    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) 15 April 2019


    And that's not even what he'd do. What he'd do would be screw all Boeing's creditors, go into bankruptcy, then start a new company selling Boeing steaks.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    kle4 said:

    Good news then, the Tories will be able to rely on SNP votes to see this through if they do propose it.
    The SNP are keen to come up with convoluted reasons why they cant support things in the UK parliament that they have done themselves in Scotland.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,135

    Mr. Nakht, yeah. Overuse of the most extreme categorisations/insults effectively dilutes them significantly, even rendering them meaningless.

    We see similar things with terms like sexism, racism, or human rights violations. The later is incredibly important but it's been used on such a broad basis (from condemning the evil UK for evicting squatters from Dale Farm which they'd illegally occupied for a decade all the way to North Korean concentration camps) it's all but meaningless.

    Look forward to similar strictures against blanket use of antisemitism, terrorist sympathiser, Stalinist, Leninist, Marxist etc. I'd hate to think anyone on here was diluting themselves into meaninglessness.
    What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    kle4 said:

    nico67 said:

    Not sure how you get the WAIB through before May 22nd .

    The WA took around 50 working days to pass through the Commons and the HOL . The WAIB is likely to be very controversial and to have loads of amendments trying to be added to it .

    Next week is unlikely to have that bill introduced so that means effectively early May and that will leave just three weeks .

    The government needs to stop peddling the fantasy that EU elections won’t happen.

    It's just unconvincing face saving, mostly to remind people they don't want the elections so please don't blame them that they are happening.
    True and they’ll just lay the blame at MPs . The WAIB is likely to cause even greater ructions in the Tory party because it lays out the role of the ECJ !

    If May goes for different voting options that will take up time . What’s been missed re a second vote is the increase in Tories supporting that in the first and second round of IVs that went from 8 to 15 in the second round of voting .

    In terms of the EU elections that puts Labour in the spotlight , they really have no choice but to include a second vote , if they stupidly try and avoid that then I can see a big meltdown in the party.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Just seen this on the BEEB.

    'Legal aid has been granted for Shamima Begum - who joined the Islamic State group aged 15 - to fight the decision to revoke her UK citizenship.'

    Which, given the restrictions on legal aid, and the difficulties some people have as a result, I find surprising.

    If we restrict legal aid to only people we judge worthy, are we not prejudging the case?

    Hers is an important case. Is it legal for the government to render a citizen stateless by decree?
    I didn't think that was what the case was about. I thought the question was whether she would in fact be made stateless, and even if she wouldn't be had all the correct processes been followed in an appropriate way. It wasn't about being made stateless by decree IIRC, since the point of contention is that she would not be stateless, depsite what the Bangladeshi authorities say, not that revoking her citizenship by decree is illegal?

    But given how many people moaned about their being no legal process for what happened to her, even though there was, and we are seeing that ongoing now, and how outrageous it was for a politician to have this power even though they've had it and used it for ages, there's no doubt plenty of confusion.

    I have no issue with her getting legal aid. She's obviously a contemptable person, but if she qualifies for it then that is that.
    Actually, I don't have a problem with her sorting out her legal position, and I see no reason why she shouldn't get legal aid. My concerns that so many others who have good cases are denied it.
    In fairness I didn't see any judgement in your post, but Foxy seemed to see something sinister in it, which given his views that being opposed to suggestions that MPs' votes should be secret is on a slippery slope to wanting to murder MPs, may be more on him than you.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    MaxPB said:

    Genuinely great news on roasting the scumbag landlords, unfortunately any moves we make on this will be drowned out by not actually getting brexit done. Still, a great move.

    It must be accompanied with a simpler process for eviction for non payment of rent or breaking of tenancy agreement.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    malcolmg said:

    Lady Haw Haw gives CCHQ position, Now is not the time we are fixing Brexit don't you know.
    Now we can all come up with amusing characterisations based on Party affiliation - I could call you Gorbals of the ScotsNazis - it’s not really worth dropping into the gutter. If she is wrong then tell her. Carlotta probably get her opinions from CCHQ is about as likely as you getting your opinions from a can of Irn Bru
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    viewcode said:

    Mr. Nakht, yeah. Overuse of the most extreme categorisations/insults effectively dilutes them significantly, even rendering them meaningless.

    We see similar things with terms like sexism, racism, or human rights violations. The later is incredibly important but it's been used on such a broad basis (from condemning the evil UK for evicting squatters from Dale Farm which they'd illegally occupied for a decade all the way to North Korean concentration camps) it's all but meaningless.

    Look forward to similar strictures against blanket use of antisemitism, terrorist sympathiser, Stalinist, Leninist, Marxist etc. I'd hate to think anyone on here was diluting themselves into meaninglessness.
    What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to".
    Reminds me of this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDxmpmln-CI
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,603
    edited April 2019
    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:



    The later Weimar Republic was still far more violent and economically unstable than our own society. Even the Liberals had their own paramilitary organisation.

    Sure, no historical analogy is absolute. Farage is no Hitler, though the rhetorhic of right wing populists does have some echoes.

    I am slightly sceptical about revolutions only happening when there are loads of twenty year olds, after all the population structure of the world has been that there has been an abundance of these throughout most human history. The present demographics worldwide have changed of course, apart from some bits of africa.
    That's true, but we've seen variously hard and soft revolutions in our liftimes around Europe (NI, the former Soviet nations, Yugoslavia, ), the Americas, the Middle East, SE Asia - it doesn't take all that much to tip these things over, even in apparently "stable" countries, and the paramilitary organizations appear with surprising alacrity.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    notme2 said:

    isam said:
    Whilst that is my favourite video of David Lammy, I don’t think it makes him a nutter. It is more comic in a The Thick of It way.
    I think his Trumpian use of twitter makes him a touch dangerous. Accuracy and honesty dont matter, if you are on his side you retweet and like. He can get 20k likes on something clearly wrong, and the rebuttals get a few hundred. Job done.
    Isn’t that the whole left wing echo chamber though.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    notme2 said:

    isam said:
    Whilst that is my favourite video of David Lammy, I don’t think it makes him a nutter. It is more comic in a The Thick of It way.
    I think his Trumpian use of twitter makes him a touch dangerous. Accuracy and honesty dont matter, if you are on his side you retweet and like. He can get 20k likes on something clearly wrong, and the rebuttals get a few hundred. Job done.
    Isn’t that the whole left wing echo chamber though.
    Soon there will be a generation of people who think Hitler was a baddie because he wanted a points based immigration system
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,855
    notme2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Genuinely great news on roasting the scumbag landlords, unfortunately any moves we make on this will be drowned out by not actually getting brexit done. Still, a great move.

    It must be accompanied with a simpler process for eviction for non payment of rent or breaking of tenancy agreement.
    Presumably simply stopping the courts being clogged up with s21 evictions will speed up other forms of eviction so should happen automatically.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    kle4 said:

    Sounds like Margot parker also quitting the kippers. Meaning, they'll have 4 meps left of 24

    4 have quit this morning alone. Lol

    Those pinning their hopes on Farage's new gang doing relatively poorly because people might think he's still UKIP may be disappointed.
    It’s a silly notion anyway; almost by definition people who vote for smaller nation-wide parties will tend to be more politically engaged than those who vote for the main parties.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Finally Antisemitism. I won’t comment on Labour but again a dictionary definition. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/anti-semitism?q=anti-Semitism
    Where we can ascribe a strong dislike of Jews it is only right to describe someone as antisemtic. Perhaps a better word would be Judeophobe to go alongside Islamophobe.

    Antisemitism has become rather more complicated than that. The new IHRA definition includes things that catch a lot of carelessly-worded anti-Israeli sentiment, so people who are not antisemitic in the classic sense of your definition, in wanting to harm Jews or Jewish culture, are antisemitic by the new definition.

    The IHRA definition is not even the problem in and of itself. Rather it is the examples that come with it. It is available at the link below.
    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217

    kle4 said:

    Sounds like Margot parker also quitting the kippers. Meaning, they'll have 4 meps left of 24

    4 have quit this morning alone. Lol

    Those pinning their hopes on Farage's new gang doing relatively poorly because people might think he's still UKIP may be disappointed.
    It’s a silly notion anyway; almost by definition people who vote for smaller nation-wide parties will tend to be more politically engaged than those who vote for the main parties.
    almost by definition people who vote for smaller nation-wide parties will tend to be more politically engaged than those who vote for the main parties.

    That's the Tory vote in the upcoming Euros :D

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    viewcode said:

    What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117694844753858561

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117699744481017857

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117700504614838272
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Just seen this on the BEEB.

    'Legal aid has been granted for Shamima Begum - who joined the Islamic State group aged 15 - to fight the decision to revoke her UK citizenship.'

    Which, given the restrictions on legal aid, and the difficulties some people have as a result, I find surprising.

    If we restrict legal aid to only people we judge worthy, are we not prejudging the case?

    Hers is an important case. Is it legal for the government to render a citizen stateless by decree?
    I didn't think that was what the case was about. I thought the question was whether she would in fact be made stateless, and even if she wouldn't be had all the correct processes been followed in an appropriate way. It wasn't about being made stateless by decree IIRC, since the point of contention is that she would not be stateless, depsite what the Bangladeshi authorities say, not that revoking her citizenship by decree is illegal?

    But given how many people moaned about their being no legal process for what happened to her, even though there was, and we are seeing that ongoing now, and how outrageous it was for a politician to have this power even though they've had it and used it for ages, there's no doubt plenty of confusion.

    I have no issue with her getting legal aid. She's obviously a contemptable person, but if she qualifies for it then that is that.
    Actually, I don't have a problem with her sorting out her legal position, and I see no reason why she shouldn't get legal aid. My concerns that so many others who have good cases are denied it.
    In fairness I didn't see any judgement in your post, but Foxy seemed to see something sinister in it, which given his views that being opposed to suggestions that MPs' votes should be secret is on a slippery slope to wanting to murder MPs, may be more on him than you.
    I don't think i have ever expressed a view on secrecy or otherwise of MPs ballots. Perhaps you have me confused with another poster.

    As far as Ms Begum is concerned, I merely support the rule of law. The Secret Barrister outlines it well.


    https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1117693237039370240?s=19
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,006
    notme2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Good news then, the Tories will be able to rely on SNP votes to see this through if they do propose it.
    The SNP are keen to come up with convoluted reasons why they cant support things in the UK parliament that they have done themselves in Scotland.
    But, but, but EVEL!
    A Tory PM told us so on the morning of 19/09/14 and everything. Admittedly he's nowhere to be found now..
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    edited April 2019
    isam said:

    notme2 said:

    isam said:
    Whilst that is my favourite video of David Lammy, I don’t think it makes him a nutter. It is more comic in a The Thick of It way.
    I think his Trumpian use of twitter makes him a touch dangerous. Accuracy and honesty dont matter, if you are on his side you retweet and like. He can get 20k likes on something clearly wrong, and the rebuttals get a few hundred. Job done.
    Isn’t that the whole left wing echo chamber though.
    Soon there will be a generation of people who think Hitler was a baddie because he wanted a points based immigration system
    To be fair on the Labour Party part of the anti semitism issue is that they feel lumped in with the Nazis. I’m pretty sure even some of the most virulent left wing anti semites don’t want to send all Jews to the gas chamber, but because it is a dislike or hatred there is a very broad range.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    edited April 2019

    notme2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Genuinely great news on roasting the scumbag landlords, unfortunately any moves we make on this will be drowned out by not actually getting brexit done. Still, a great move.

    It must be accompanied with a simpler process for eviction for non payment of rent or breaking of tenancy agreement.
    Presumably simply stopping the courts being clogged up with s21 evictions will speed up other forms of eviction so should happen automatically.
    Many s21s are also carried out because the landlord no longer wants tenants who dont pay their rent, the process is mandatory and more difficult to string out than section 8.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006

    notme2 said:

    isam said:
    Whilst that is my favourite video of David Lammy, I don’t think it makes him a nutter. It is more comic in a The Thick of It way.
    I think his Trumpian use of twitter makes him a touch dangerous. Accuracy and honesty dont matter, if you are on his side you retweet and like. He can get 20k likes on something clearly wrong, and the rebuttals get a few hundred. Job done.
    Isn’t that the whole left wing echo chamber though.
    The whole nation seems to have divided entered its own gigantic echo chambers.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,135
    eristdoof said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    mwadams said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Roger said:

    Quite happy to accommodate UKIP's association with Tommy Robinson, them heading down the electoral toilet pan not so much.
    So it's the Tommy R Party Versus Big Nige.

    That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
    One reason I think we are safe its this: in 1933 the Hitler Youth had 2.3m members. I don't think a serious fascist party can get by without a really substantial youth element, since kicking foreigners needs youthful strength and energy. So the average ukipper agree needs to fall by about 40 years before we have a problem.
    Beautifully put. Also I don't think the average UKipper is a fascist, some undoubtedly are, but doubt its the majority.
    Although it would not be unreasonable to compare the situtation here and elsewhere with that of 1927-1930, on the rise to power (polling between 3% and 18%), rather than 1933 where they are basically consolidating their grip.

    I agree, that it is counterproductive to draw these comparisons without nuance. And David Lammy is nothing if not "without nuance". On the other hand, pointing out when people are using the language of the far right (however they intend it to be interpreted) and promoting the utterances of those who avowedly are on the far right, is important; and we have been letting that slide for too long (whichever party it comes from).
    Yes, the turmoil of the later Weimar republic is perhaps a better analogy, not least as the left wing populists were pretty evenly matched with the right wing populists at the time.
    The later Weimar Republic was still far more violent and economically unstable than our own society. Even the Liberals had their own paramilitary organisation.
    The Liberals in Germany are like pro-business free market tories and unlike Liberal Democrats in the in the UK or the "liberals" in the US.
    This is why the term "classic Liberal" was invented.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653

    isam said:

    Incidentally Nige's clear purple water thing last week was that the Brexit Party, unlike UKIP, would reject candidates/members with previous links to far right parties. Does UKIP Fash 2.0 count as a far right party?

    Obviously, that does not include Nigel himself.


    Which far right party was he in that is proscribed by his current one?

    No idea. I was responding to a post that was talking about links.

    Well, he was, I understand a Young Conservative. But he was in UKIP pretty soon after it started, although according to Wikipedia he supported the Greens at one time.
    He wasn't a nice guy to work with/for, I understand.

    And he has campaigned for white supremacists in the US and far-right parties in Europe. In my book, if you are going on the stump for a party or candidate you are linked to them.

    I know it's all very unpleasant for people to point out the links between Farage, prominent members of the ERG and white supremacism, but they undoubtedly exist. Labour supporters hate Corbyn's long links with anti-Semites to be pointed out, but they exist too. If you consort with extremists, be prepared to be called out on it.

    (Sorry - this is not a dig at you OKC, more a general observation)

  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019
    glw said:

    The world's smartest man offers some free advice to Boeing.

    What do I know about branding, maybe nothing (but I did become President!), but if I were Boeing, I would FIX the Boeing 737 MAX, add some additional great features, & REBRAND the plane with a new name.
    No product has suffered like this one. But again, what the hell do I know?

    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) 15 April 2019


    I've only ever agreed with Rex Tillerson about one thing. But some days it sure is obvious...

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    edited April 2019
    Scott_P said:

    viewcode said:

    What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117694844753858561

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117699744481017857

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117700504614838272
    If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,167
    nico67 said:

    kle4 said:

    nico67 said:

    Not sure how you get the WAIB through before May 22nd .

    The WA took around 50 working days to pass through the Commons and the HOL . The WAIB is likely to be very controversial and to have loads of amendments trying to be added to it .

    Next week is unlikely to have that bill introduced so that means effectively early May and that will leave just three weeks .

    The government needs to stop peddling the fantasy that EU elections won’t happen.

    It's just unconvincing face saving, mostly to remind people they don't want the elections so please don't blame them that they are happening.
    True and they’ll just lay the blame at MPs . The WAIB is likely to cause even greater ructions in the Tory party because it lays out the role of the ECJ !

    If May goes for different voting options that will take up time . What’s been missed re a second vote is the increase in Tories supporting that in the first and second round of IVs that went from 8 to 15 in the second round of voting .

    In terms of the EU elections that puts Labour in the spotlight , they really have no choice but to include a second vote , if they stupidly try and avoid that then I can see a big meltdown in the party.
    There is no majority in Parliam ent for a second vote because more Labour MPs from Leave seats than Tory MPs back one. Hence WA plus Customs Union remains the likeliest option to get through
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    edited April 2019

    isam said:

    Incidentally Nige's clear purple water thing last week was that the Brexit Party, unlike UKIP, would reject candidates/members with previous links to far right parties. Does UKIP Fash 2.0 count as a far right party?

    Obviously, that does not include Nigel himself.


    Which far right party was he in that is proscribed by his current one?

    No idea. I was responding to a post that was talking about links.

    Well, he was, I understand a Young Conservative. But he was in UKIP pretty soon after it started, although according to Wikipedia he supported the Greens at one time.
    He wasn't a nice guy to work with/for, I understand.

    And he has campaigned for white supremacists in the US and far-right parties in Europe. In my book, if you are going on the stump for a party or candidate you are linked to them.

    I know it's all very unpleasant for people to point out the links between Farage, prominent members of the ERG and white supremacism, but they undoubtedly exist. Labour supporters hate Corbyn's long links with anti-Semites to be pointed out, but they exist too. If you consort with extremists, be prepared to be called out on it.

    (Sorry - this is not a dig at you OKC, more a general observation)

    Not questioning , just curious as to the 'white supremacists' he's been supporting.... And which prominent members of the ERG, and by association the Conservative party have been interacting with white supremacists?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    glw said:

    The world's smartest man offers some free advice to Boeing.

    What do I know about branding, maybe nothing (but I did become President!), but if I were Boeing, I would FIX the Boeing 737 MAX, add some additional great features, & REBRAND the plane with a new name.
    No product has suffered like this one. But again, what the hell do I know?

    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) 15 April 2019


    Does that mean “what the hell do I know” is now a fair quote from Trump?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,006
    Awright lads, which one of you did this?

    https://twitter.com/RossMcCaff/status/1117735445159346179
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited April 2019
    glw said:

    The world's smartest man offers some free advice to Boeing.

    What do I know about branding, maybe nothing (but I did become President!), but if I were Boeing, I would FIX the Boeing 737 MAX, add some additional great features, & REBRAND the plane with a new name.
    No product has suffered like this one. But again, what the hell do I know?

    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) 15 April 2019


    One phrase in there, add some additional great features, sums up what is wrong with much of politics and indeed management today. And Brexit. All we need is to add some great features and the WA would sail through. But sometimes, details matter.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384

    Awright lads, which one of you did this?

    https://twitter.com/RossMcCaff/status/1117735445159346179

    William Glenn.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,855
    notme2 said:

    notme2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Genuinely great news on roasting the scumbag landlords, unfortunately any moves we make on this will be drowned out by not actually getting brexit done. Still, a great move.

    It must be accompanied with a simpler process for eviction for non payment of rent or breaking of tenancy agreement.
    Presumably simply stopping the courts being clogged up with s21 evictions will speed up other forms of eviction so should happen automatically.
    Many s21s are also carried out because the landlord no longer wants tenants who dont pay their rent, the process is mandatory and more difficult to string out than section 8.
    If there unpaid rent arrears at the time of notice and the court date its a mandatory reason for section 8 being accepted. If there is a simple way of updating section 8 that maintains the spirit and balance of the law but stops it being gamed then fine to update it. If you want it to be changed to apply to people who regularly pay late rather than have specific arrears, that is a currently a discretionary reason which seems the right balance to me.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    viewcode said:

    What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117694844753858561

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117699744481017857

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117700504614838272
    If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
    But in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and even the 90s and the 00s you would not have heard MPs publicly accusing their opponents of treachery or praying in aid "the will of the people" in an attempt to circumvent parliamentary democracy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,247
    edited April 2019

    glw said:

    The world's smartest man offers some free advice to Boeing.

    What do I know about branding, maybe nothing (but I did become President!), but if I were Boeing, I would FIX the Boeing 737 MAX, add some additional great features, & REBRAND the plane with a new name.
    No product has suffered like this one. But again, what the hell do I know?

    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) 15 April 2019


    One phrase in there, add some additional great features, sums up what is wrong with much of politics and indeed management today. And Brexit. All we need is to add some great features and the WA would sail through. But sometimes, details matter.
    It was the addition of 'great features' - bigger, more efficient engines - which caused the problem in the first place.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741
    notme2 said:

    isam said:

    Incidentally Nige's clear purple water thing last week was that the Brexit Party, unlike UKIP, would reject candidates/members with previous links to far right parties. Does UKIP Fash 2.0 count as a far right party?

    Obviously, that does not include Nigel himself.


    Which far right party was he in that is proscribed by his current one?

    No idea. I was responding to a post that was talking about links.

    Well, he was, I understand a Young Conservative. But he was in UKIP pretty soon after it started, although according to Wikipedia he supported the Greens at one time.
    He wasn't a nice guy to work with/for, I understand.

    And he has campaigned for white supremacists in the US and far-right parties in Europe. In my book, if you are going on the stump for a party or candidate you are linked to them.

    I know it's all very unpleasant for people to point out the links between Farage, prominent members of the ERG and white supremacism, but they undoubtedly exist. Labour supporters hate Corbyn's long links with anti-Semites to be pointed out, but they exist too. If you consort with extremists, be prepared to be called out on it.

    (Sorry - this is not a dig at you OKC, more a general observation)

    Not questioning , just curious as to the 'white supremacists' he's been supporting.... And which prominent members of the ERG, and by association the Conservative party have been interacting with white supremacists?
    Do you consider Steve Bannon to be a White Supremacist?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    Conservatives Online
    12 April at 08:48

    CALL TO CONSERVATIVE PARTY MEMBERS
    SHARE AND SPREAD THE WORD:
    10,000 SIGNATURES NEEDED TO ACHIEVE THE NO CONFIDENCE RULE CHANGE
    A majority of Conservative MPs have indicated that: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. They could well now vote for change - but they need your help!...
    See more

    PETITIONS.NET
    Reduce the 12 month minimum between 2 votes of no confidence in Tory leader to 3 months
    Members are extremely frustrated with Mrs May's disassociation with conservative…
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Foxy said:

    Do you consider Steve Bannon to be a White Supremacist?

    https://twitter.com/UnwinPaul/status/1117710908074151938
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,006
    HYUFD said:
    A dirty great lump of notgivingafuckness there.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Incidentally Nige's clear purple water thing last week was that the Brexit Party, unlike UKIP, would reject candidates/members with previous links to far right parties. Does UKIP Fash 2.0 count as a far right party?

    Obviously, that does not include Nigel himself.


    Which far right party was he in that is proscribed by his current one?

    No idea. I was responding to a post that was talking about links.

    Well, he was, I understand a Young Conservative. But he was in UKIP pretty soon after it started, although according to Wikipedia he supported the Greens at one time.
    He wasn't a nice guy to work with/for, I understand.

    And he has campaigned for white supremacists in the US and far-right parties in Europe. In my book, if you are going on the stump for a party or candidate you are linked to them.

    I know it's all very unpleasant for people to point out the links between Farage, prominent members of the ERG and white supremacism, but they undoubtedly exist. Labour supporters hate Corbyn's long links with anti-Semites to be pointed out, but they exist too. If you consort with extremists, be prepared to be called out on it.

    (Sorry - this is not a dig at you OKC, more a general observation)

    And Blairites are linked to the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent Moslems in Iraq I suppose?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    HYUFD said:
    Weird to have a "neither" option and not a "both".
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    notme2 said:

    isam said:

    Incidentally Nige's clear purple water thing last week was that the Brexit Party, unlike UKIP, would reject candidates/members with previous links to far right parties. Does UKIP Fash 2.0 count as a far right party?

    Obviously, that does not include Nigel himself.


    Which far right party was he in that is proscribed by his current one?

    No idea. I was responding to a post that was talking about links.

    Well, he was, I understand a Young Conservative. But he was in UKIP pretty soon after it started, although according to Wikipedia he supported the Greens at one time.
    He wasn't a nice guy to work with/for, I understand.

    And he has campaigned for white supremacists in the US and far-right parties in Europe. In my book, if you are going on the stump for a party or candidate you are linked to them.

    I know it's all very unpleasant for people to point out the links between Farage, prominent members of the ERG and white supremacism, but they undoubtedly exist. Labour supporters hate Corbyn's long links with anti-Semites to be pointed out, but they exist too. If you consort with extremists, be prepared to be called out on it.

    (Sorry - this is not a dig at you OKC, more a general observation)

    Not questioning , just curious as to the 'white supremacists' he's been supporting.... And which prominent members of the ERG, and by association the Conservative party have been interacting with white supremacists?
    Do you consider Steve Bannon to be a White Supremacist?
    Probably

    But I would probably give people a pass while he was still in office - would be much less sympathetic to any more recent association
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,855
    HYUFD said:
    Why isn't both an option if neither is? He is probably a bit of both but the evidence is too confusing and biased to know for sure.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217

    HYUFD said:
    Weird to have a "neither" option and not a "both".
    Especially because it is objectively true.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    So Brexit is right wing because er racists and stuff ?

    What a poor argument for the EU - "You're either for us or you like racism and mustard cords"


    No wonder Remain lost.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Incidentally Nige's clear purple water thing last week was that the Brexit Party, unlike UKIP, would reject candidates/members with previous links to far right parties. Does UKIP Fash 2.0 count as a far right party?

    Obviously, that does not include Nigel himself.


    Which far right party was he in that is proscribed by his current one?

    No idea. I was responding to a post that was talking about links.

    Well, he was, I understand a Young Conservative. But he was in UKIP pretty soon after it started, although according to Wikipedia he supported the Greens at one time.
    He wasn't a nice guy to work with/for, I understand.

    And he has campaigned for white supremacists in the US and far-right parties in Europe. In my book, if you are going on the stump for a party or candidate you are linked to them.

    I know it's all very unpleasant for people to point out the links between Farage, prominent members of the ERG and white supremacism, but they undoubtedly exist. Labour supporters hate Corbyn's long links with anti-Semites to be pointed out, but they exist too. If you consort with extremists, be prepared to be called out on it.

    (Sorry - this is not a dig at you OKC, more a general observation)

    And Blairites are linked to the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent Moslems in Iraq I suppose?

    They are - all the time.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    malcolmg said:

    Lady Haw Haw gives CCHQ position, Now is not the time we are fixing Brexit don't you know.
    Now we can all come up with amusing characterisations based on Party affiliation - I could call you Gorbals of the ScotsNazis - it’s not really worth dropping into the gutter. If she is wrong then tell her. Carlotta probably get her opinions from CCHQ is about as likely as you getting your opinions from a can of Irn Bru
    Given I have no connection with Glasgow/Gorbals at all and have never in my life had Irn Bru so that would make you a nutjob. Carlotta on the other hand is a CCHQ mouthpiece.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    Conservatives Online
    12 April at 08:48

    CALL TO CONSERVATIVE PARTY MEMBERS
    SHARE AND SPREAD THE WORD:
    10,000 SIGNATURES NEEDED TO ACHIEVE THE NO CONFIDENCE RULE CHANGE
    A majority of Conservative MPs have indicated that: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. They could well now vote for change - but they need your help!...
    See more

    PETITIONS.NET
    Reduce the 12 month minimum between 2 votes of no confidence in Tory leader to 3 months
    Members are extremely frustrated with Mrs May's disassociation with conservative…

    Is this true? The 10,000 I mean. I thought 1922 made its own rules?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    notme2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Good news then, the Tories will be able to rely on SNP votes to see this through if they do propose it.
    The SNP are keen to come up with convoluted reasons why they cant support things in the UK parliament that they have done themselves in Scotland.
    EVEL you halfwit, and also the SNP have never ever voted on English only legislation, if it does not affect Scotland they don't vote on it.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    TGOHF said:

    So Brexit is right wing because er racists and stuff ?

    What a poor argument for the EU - "You're either for us or you like racism and mustard cords"


    No wonder Remain lost.

    The fact that a number of politicians who advocate Brexit have links to white supremacists and Nazi apologists in the US and Europe does not make Brexit voters racist.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I hope neither the Brexit party nor Change UK are overpromising and underdelivering on the big name candidates. If the best that either of them end up offering are the equivalent of Latoya Jackson and the sports guy off Breakfast News, they're not going to have done themselves any favours.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    viewcode said:

    What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117694844753858561

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117699744481017857

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117700504614838272
    If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
    But in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and even the 90s and the 00s you would not have heard MPs publicly accusing their opponents of treachery or praying in aid "the will of the people" in an attempt to circumvent parliamentary democracy.
    The nineties and the noughties were a quiet period.

    Prior to that, post war, politicians like Aneurin Bevan, Manny Shinwell, Ian Paisley, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell, Ken Livingstone etc. uttered some very hardline rhetoric about their opponents, eg "lower than vermin", "the enemy within". The most horrible comments were made about Wilson, Heath, and Thatcher.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    I hope neither the Brexit party nor Change UK are overpromising and underdelivering on the big name candidates. If the best that either of them end up offering are the equivalent of Latoya Jackson and the sports guy off Breakfast News, they're not going to have done themselves any favours.

    The Brexit Party have got Britains most influential post war politician, hard to beat that 😊
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    TGOHF said:

    So Brexit is right wing because er racists and stuff ?

    What a poor argument for the EU - "You're either for us or you like racism and mustard cords"


    No wonder Remain lost.

    The fact that a number of politicians who advocate Brexit have links to white supremacists and Nazi apologists in the US and Europe does not make Brexit voters racist.

    But it plants the idea of the smear nicely enough for Centrist rebels to feel smug
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684

    Just seen this on the BEEB.

    'Legal aid has been granted for Shamima Begum - who joined the Islamic State group aged 15 - to fight the decision to revoke her UK citizenship.'

    Which, given the restrictions on legal aid, and the difficulties some people have as a result, I find surprising.

    The fact you find it surprising makes the case for it.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Incidentally Nige's clear purple water thing last week was that the Brexit Party, unlike UKIP, would reject candidates/members with previous links to far right parties. Does UKIP Fash 2.0 count as a far right party?

    Obviously, that does not include Nigel himself.


    Which far right party was he in that is proscribed by his current one?

    No idea. I was responding to a post that was talking about links.

    Well, he was, I understand a Young Conservative. But he was in UKIP pretty soon after it started, although according to Wikipedia he supported the Greens at one time.
    He wasn't a nice guy to work with/for, I understand.

    And he has campaigned for white supremacists in the US and far-right parties in Europe. In my book, if you are going on the stump for a party or candidate you are linked to them.

    I know it's all very unpleasant for people to point out the links between Farage, prominent members of the ERG and white supremacism, but they undoubtedly exist. Labour supporters hate Corbyn's long links with anti-Semites to be pointed out, but they exist too. If you consort with extremists, be prepared to be called out on it.

    (Sorry - this is not a dig at you OKC, more a general observation)

    And Blairites are linked to the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent Moslems in Iraq I suppose?

    They are - all the time.

    So we’re all as bad as each other
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Lady Haw Haw gives CCHQ position, Now is not the time we are fixing Brexit don't you know.
    Now we can all come up with amusing characterisations based on Party affiliation - I could call you Gorbals of the ScotsNazis - it’s not really worth dropping into the gutter. If she is wrong then tell her. Carlotta probably get her opinions from CCHQ is about as likely as you getting your opinions from a can of Irn Bru
    Given I have no connection with Glasgow/Gorbals at all and have never in my life had Irn Bru so that would make you a nutjob. Carlotta on the other hand is a CCHQ mouthpiece.
    Sadly I have a soft spot for Irn Bru. It is the only carbonated drink I like. All the better as the sugar free version actually tastes the same as the full fat version.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653

    I hope neither the Brexit party nor Change UK are overpromising and underdelivering on the big name candidates. If the best that either of them end up offering are the equivalent of Latoya Jackson and the sports guy off Breakfast News, they're not going to have done themselves any favours.

    CHUK seems to be in imminent danger of becoming the Conservative party that Cameron and Osborne always dreamed of.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited April 2019
    malcolmg said:

    notme2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Good news then, the Tories will be able to rely on SNP votes to see this through if they do propose it.
    The SNP are keen to come up with convoluted reasons why they cant support things in the UK parliament that they have done themselves in Scotland.
    EVEL you halfwit, and also the SNP have never ever voted on English only legislation, if it does not affect Scotland they don't vote on it.
    The problem is that "if it does not affect Scotland they don't vote on it" sounds reasonable but isn't (in this context)

    Because of the Barnett Formula anything which affects spending in England "affects Scotland"

    The best known example is where the SNP voted against England adjusting their Sunday Trading rules recently (not sure of the justification they used, whether it was spending related or not)


    edit: looks like it was because Scottish workers currently get premium pay for working on a Sunday and this might be undermined if Sunday working was commonplace in England and Wales

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35756258
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    So Brexit is right wing because er racists and stuff ?

    What a poor argument for the EU - "You're either for us or you like racism and mustard cords"


    No wonder Remain lost.

    The fact that a number of politicians who advocate Brexit have links to white supremacists and Nazi apologists in the US and Europe does not make Brexit voters racist.

    I heard remainer advocates have links to extreme anti-semite groups including being in the Uk Labour party.

    How can anyone support Remain ?

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,006
    edited April 2019
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    viewcode said:

    What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117694844753858561

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117699744481017857

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117700504614838272
    If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
    But in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and even the 90s and the 00s you would not have heard MPs publicly accusing their opponents of treachery or praying in aid "the will of the people" in an attempt to circumvent parliamentary democracy.
    The nineties and the noughties were a quiet period.

    Prior to that, post war, politicians like Aneurin Bevan, Manny Shinwell, Ian Paisley, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell, Ken Livingstone etc. uttered some very hardline rhetoric about their opponents, eg "lower than vermin", "the enemy within". The most horrible comments were made about Wilson, Heath, and Thatcher.
    Wasn't it Thatcher who used 'enemy within' about the miners? And of course good old Winny describing Labour as the Gestapo just as the full horrors of what the real Gestapo got up to were being revealed.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    viewcode said:

    What genuinely worries and annoys me is that even in a political board like this people use terms imprecisely or just plain wrongly. Fascist, Nazi, Communist, Marxist, Stalinist, etc have specific meanings, they're not just synonyms for "more right/left wing than I am used to". Farage is conspicuously neither a Nazi nor a Fascist.

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117694844753858561

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117699744481017857

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1117700504614838272
    If one were alive in the Sixties, Seventies, or Eighties, one would have witnessed much greater political violence, industrial conflict, and nastiness towards minorities than one sees today. But, the UK was nowhere close then to becoming a fascist or communist State then, and nowhere close to it now.
    But in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and even the 90s and the 00s you would not have heard MPs publicly accusing their opponents of treachery or praying in aid "the will of the people" in an attempt to circumvent parliamentary democracy.
    The nineties and the noughties were a quiet period.

    Prior to that, post war, politicians like Aneurin Bevan, Manny Shinwell, Ian Paisley, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell, Ken Livingstone etc. uttered some very hardline rhetoric about their opponents, eg "lower than vermin", "the enemy within". The most horrible comments were made about Wilson, Heath, and Thatcher.
    I do not recall accusations of treachery being made against Wilson, Heath or Thatcher and nor do I recall anyone accusing them of behaving in a way which threatened democracy itself.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    I hope neither the Brexit party nor Change UK are overpromising and underdelivering on the big name candidates. If the best that either of them end up offering are the equivalent of Latoya Jackson and the sports guy off Breakfast News, they're not going to have done themselves any favours.

    CHUK seems to be in imminent danger of becoming the Conservative party that Cameron and Osborne always dreamed of.

    What did you expect a collection of Blairites and Cameroon’s to be?
This discussion has been closed.