Just to help old Stodge out here - passing or not passing the CU doesn't make any difference because it's not part of the WA? Passing Common Market 2.0 might set the tone for the PD but how does any of this impact the WA which is the central issue between now and 12/4?
Just to help old Stodge out here - passing or not passing the CU doesn't make any difference because it's not part of the WA? Passing Common Market 2.0 might set the tone for the PD but how does any of this impact the WA which is the central issue between now and 12/4?
It doesn't. Which is why the government should support it and let's the chips fall.
Just to help old Stodge out here - passing or not passing the CU doesn't make any difference because it's not part of the WA? Passing Common Market 2.0 might set the tone for the PD but how does any of this impact the WA which is the central issue between now and 12/4?
(Open to being corrected). An indication here that something might be ok gets momentum, and with another (more serious) vote might become something the Government has to not ignore.
Huw Merriman voting for a second referendum as the best way to deliver Brexit.
I think they should distinguish a 2nd referendum from a vote to ratify (or not) the leave terms. The latter is a perfectly legitimate exercise because the terms weren't obvious in 2016.
A second referendum is more open to criticism.
Because there is *nothing* more vilely undemocratic than giving the maximum possible number of people the maximum possible number of options, and letting them decide what their own future is to be.
I don't think I will ever stop laughing at that gag.
Which once again shows you understand fuck all about democracy.
Just to help old Stodge out here - passing or not passing the CU doesn't make any difference because it's not part of the WA? Passing Common Market 2.0 might set the tone for the PD but how does any of this impact the WA which is the central issue between now and 12/4?
It doesn't. Which is why the government should support it and let's the chips fall.
Thanks Max so why are we wasting time debating all this irrelevance? The only debate in town should be the WA and, assuming it won't or can't pass the Commons, whether we will leave without a WA on 12/4 or seek an extension from the EU and, if so, how long that extension will be.
Huw Merriman voting for a second referendum as the best way to deliver Brexit.
I think they should distinguish a 2nd referendum from a vote to ratify (or not) the leave terms. The latter is a perfectly legitimate exercise because the terms weren't obvious in 2016.
A second referendum is more open to criticism.
Because there is *nothing* more vilely undemocratic than giving the maximum possible number of people the maximum possible number of options, and letting them decide what their own future is to be.
I don't think I will ever stop laughing at that gag.
Which once again shows you understand fuck all about democracy.
Government cannon being wheeled out against the customs union. If CM2.0 a non-starter on FoM grounds and a second referendum unthinkable, we are at stalemate.
I'm not sure who the kitchen cabinet is but I don't really agree with much of this article. The central problem for the Tories is not Theresa May. It is the fact they are a split party. I'm struck when speaking to ordinary people how little animosity there is towards her. People blame David Cameron for leaving a mess for her to clear up. She may not have come across as warm during the election but some attractive policies and ability to think on her feet would have made up for that. It was the lack of spontaneity rather than warmth which probably crystallised the 'Maybot' moniker. Neither do I think there is anything personable about McVey and Truss.
I haven't followed much polling on BoJo lately - I thought the general consensus was that the sheen had come off some time ago.
I'm coming round to the view that Mrs May is going to be PM for some time. Anyone else would split the party even more.
Yep. She unites the Party. All wings agree she's useless. All are as one that no one else is better. What does that say about the Tories?
Government cannon being wheeled out against the customs union. If CM2.0 a non-starter on FoM grounds and a second referendum unthinkable, we are at stalemate.
Just to help old Stodge out here - passing or not passing the CU doesn't make any difference because it's not part of the WA? Passing Common Market 2.0 might set the tone for the PD but how does any of this impact the WA which is the central issue between now and 12/4?
(Open to being corrected). An indication here that something might be ok gets momentum, and with another (more serious) vote might become something the Government has to not ignore.
Yes, I understand one of the EU's irritations that while they know what we don't want they don't know what we do want. I accept one of the options might achieve a majority (however defined) but again I come back to the point the WA remains the central issue.
Unless the WA clears the Commons we either have to go for a further extension (with all that entails) or leave without a WA on 12/4 (with all that entails).
Just to help old Stodge out here - passing or not passing the CU doesn't make any difference because it's not part of the WA? Passing Common Market 2.0 might set the tone for the PD but how does any of this impact the WA which is the central issue between now and 12/4?
It doesn't. Which is why the government should support it and let's the chips fall.
Thanks Max so why are we wasting time debating all this irrelevance? The only debate in town should be the WA and, assuming it won't or can't pass the Commons, whether we will leave without a WA on 12/4 or seek an extension from the EU and, if so, how long that extension will be.
I don't know either.
The remainer theory is that the CU passes and then the government requests a 9 month extension to amend the unamenable WA to include something the EU doesn't really want (membership of "the" customs union). It's more likely that this passes, the government packages it with the existing WA and dares Parliament to then vote against it having just voted for it.
I'm not sure who the kitchen cabinet is but I don't really agree with much of this article. The central problem for the Tories is not Theresa May. It is the fact they are a split party. I'm struck when speaking to ordinary people how little animosity there is towards her. People blame David Cameron for leaving a mess for her to clear up. She may not have come across as warm during the election but some attractive policies and ability to think on her feet would have made up for that. It was the lack of spontaneity rather than warmth which probably crystallised the 'Maybot' moniker. Neither do I think there is anything personable about McVey and Truss.
I haven't followed much polling on BoJo lately - I thought the general consensus was that the sheen had come off some time ago.
I'm coming round to the view that Mrs May is going to be PM for some time. Anyone else would split the party even more.
Technically may be true, but I don't think she will bePM for much longer regardless. A moment of decision for Brexit is coming and with that the divisions can be contained no longer. Once that happens, there's no reason for the factions to not engage in open war and for her position to become untenable even with the party rules as they are.
I expect CU will win comfortably, CM2.0 will win and a second referendum will roughly break even.
At that point, it really is time to ditch the idea of second referendum, and get on with a Brexit compromise.
Who has changed their mind on CU??
Not SNP or LD or TIG.
Cabinet still not voting so not sure who will swap
Good point. I lazily assumed the SNP would switch.
In that case, CM2.0 will be a clear winner. Perhaps that can go up against the deal on Wednesday?
If it comes to a vote on that I could see “Spartans” voting for CM2.0 over May’s Deal on the grounds it’s BINO and it’s only by experiencing such a meaningless betrayal that the British will rise up and demand its overthrow once more for a true clean Brexit.
They’ll argue that anything’s better than purgatory in the backstop.
I'm not sure who the kitchen cabinet is but I don't really agree with much of this article. The central problem for the Tories is not Theresa May. It is the fact they are a split party. I'm struck when speaking to ordinary people how little animosity there is towards her. People blame David Cameron for leaving a mess for her to clear up. She may not have come across as warm during the election but some attractive policies and ability to think on her feet would have made up for that. It was the lack of spontaneity rather than warmth which probably crystallised the 'Maybot' moniker. Neither do I think there is anything personable about McVey and Truss.
I haven't followed much polling on BoJo lately - I thought the general consensus was that the sheen had come off some time ago.
I'm coming round to the view that Mrs May is going to be PM for some time. Anyone else would split the party even more.
Technically may be true, but I don't think she will bePM for much longer regardless. A moment of decision for Brexit is coming and with that the divisions can be contained no longer. Once that happens, there's no reason for the factions to not engage in open war and for her position to become untenable even with the party rules as they are.
If the decision is a second referendum, no-one will want to take over before the vote.
Just to help old Stodge out here - passing or not passing the CU doesn't make any difference because it's not part of the WA? Passing Common Market 2.0 might set the tone for the PD but how does any of this impact the WA which is the central issue between now and 12/4?
It doesn't. Which is why the government should support it and let's the chips fall.
Thanks Max so why are we wasting time debating all this irrelevance? The only debate in town should be the WA and, assuming it won't or can't pass the Commons, whether we will leave without a WA on 12/4 or seek an extension from the EU and, if so, how long that extension will be.
I don't know either.
The remainer theory is that the CU passes and then the government requests a 9 month extension to amend the unamenable WA to include something the EU doesn't really want (membership of "the" customs union). It's more likely that this passes, the government packages it with the existing WA and dares Parliament to then vote against it having just voted for it.
9 month extension = EU Parliament election - do you really think the Government is going to push for an extension that long...
I'm not sure who the kitchen cabinet is but I don't really agree with much of this article. The central problem for the Tories is not Theresa May. It is the fact they are a split party. I'm struck when speaking to ordinary people how little animosity there is towards her. People blame David Cameron for leaving a mess for her to clear up. She may not have come across as warm during the election but some attractive policies and ability to think on her feet would have made up for that. It was the lack of spontaneity rather than warmth which probably crystallised the 'Maybot' moniker. Neither do I think there is anything personable about McVey and Truss.
I haven't followed much polling on BoJo lately - I thought the general consensus was that the sheen had come off some time ago.
I'm coming round to the view that Mrs May is going to be PM for some time. Anyone else would split the party even more.
Yep. She unites the Party. All wings agree she's useless. All are as one that no one else is better. What does that say about the Tories?
It's more likely that this passes, the government packages it with the existing WA and dares Parliament to then vote against it having just voted for it.
Just to help old Stodge out here - passing or not passing the CU doesn't make any difference because it's not part of the WA? Passing Common Market 2.0 might set the tone for the PD but how does any of this impact the WA which is the central issue between now and 12/4?
It doesn't. Which is why the government should support it and let's the chips fall.
Thanks Max so why are we wasting time debating all this irrelevance? The only debate in town should be the WA and, assuming it won't or can't pass the Commons, whether we will leave without a WA on 12/4 or seek an extension from the EU and, if so, how long that extension will be.
I don't know either.
The remainer theory is that the CU passes and then the government requests a 9 month extension to amend the unamenable WA to include something the EU doesn't really want (membership of "the" customs union). It's more likely that this passes, the government packages it with the existing WA and dares Parliament to then vote against it having just voted for it.
9 month extension = EU Parliament election - do you really think the Government is going to push for an extension that long...
A lot of people saying the Customs Union is superficially attractive. In fact it's the other way round. A customs union is superficially unattractive. The decision isn't whether the customs union is good or bad per se. It's whether being in a customs union is better than not being in it. You might think it's bad to have follow others' rules. But following rules that apply mutually is better than having those rules applied against you.
Major new development tonight as the Evening Standard is reporting the Attorney General Geoffrey Cox has told the Cabinet that the Government would be legally bound if the Commons votes for an indicative option tonight and then also votes for a Bill MPs led by Letwin intend to rush through on Wednesday and Thursday.
Cox has told Ministers under our system of parliamentary sovereignty if they fail to work 'in good faith' for Common Market 2.0 or a Customs Union if the Commons votes for it that will be acting illegally. Civil servants, including the Brexit negotiating team, would have to then act under mandate direct from Parliament
It’s bollocks. Until you see it in writing from AG the hearsay is a straightforward lie to scare off votes for it. They tried the same tactic on the day last week.
As soon as they have their wicked vote suppression it will be just as like leadsome said in commons ‘well your recollection of what was said is different than mine, the only thing to have got most votes so far is May’s deal’
Not a major new development at all, just straightforward bollocks.
If AG said this, get him to repeat it at the dispatch box or in a written answer.
The bottom line is, this whole indicative vote thing can be brushed aside by the executive. The ministers and the PM have said this, they can ignore anything against their manifesto and they are correct.
The run off plan being rumoured is a desperate attempt to get Mays deal over the line but it’s not just coming out first but getting a proper majority of MPs.
It’s likely Mays plan wins but without a proper majority . Even if the CU wins tonight that would be due to many opposition votes and Tories who will back Mays deal in a run off.
The remainer theory is that the CU passes and then the government requests a 9 month extension to amend the unamenable WA to include something the EU doesn't really want (membership of "the" customs union). It's more likely that this passes, the government packages it with the existing WA and dares Parliament to then vote against it having just voted for it.
Max, thanks for the honest answer. I don't see how anyone who remains opposed to the WA is going to support it because the Political Declaration is for a CU or Common Market 2.0 or whatever.
The fundamentals of the WA remain however much the PD is dressed up and, as last week showed, there is still a respectable majority opposed to the WA.
I don't see the point of today or of Parliament sitting at all unless they are prepared to consider the WA again but I can't see it passing.
As to whether May has enough support within the Conservative Party to seek a further and much longer extension, I can't speak to that. I suspect not so why would she try?
Out of that lot Raab has the best chance I think as he's got the fewest enemies... Although the Murdoch press will support Hunt for what that's worth these days...
Raab is a lightweight and a moron. He couldn't hack it as Brexit secretary. Yeah: May undermined him. So what? He should have been a damn sight tougher. If he can't deal with that, he doesn't have the balls needed to be leader or PM.
Frankly, no-one in the Cabinet particularly impresses. The Tories are split, are messing up the country and need to go away into a darkened corner and grow up before bothering the rest of us.
His academic record suggests otherwise to the accusation of being a moron. His employment record before before becoming an MP pushes strongly back against your accusation. Something to do with Westminster perhaps.
He .
Not exactly what he said about Dover-Calais
He said he didn’t realise it was “quite as significant” as it was.
That’s a relative statement rather than the absolute one you report
I don't think there is a contradiction. But in any case it hardly helps his case, does it? Not quite as significant as what, exactly? Our exports from the port of Liverpool perhaps? Or Maryport? For God's sake, the first thing a Brexit secretary should have done is got a briefing on our trade and what routes it uses. He might even have thought to get such a briefing before he became a Brexiteer and started campaigning for us to leave.
In the context it sounded like (made up numbers for illustration) he thought it was 70% of trade and it turned out to be 80%
And it was a reference to before being appointed vs after it
Goodness knows that’s there’s enough to criticise the government for without making stuff up
That we are still talking about it - and that it is about the only thing anyone knows about Raab - is ample demonstration of his utter ineffectiveness as a politician.
Nah. A lie is halfway round the world before the truth has its boots on
= politics. No such thing as society, etc. If you are in the game you should know the offside rule.
Sure. My point is that @Cyclefree has fallen for spin. She is a smart lady who I respect & should teach fact based conclusions
Government cannon being wheeled out against the customs union. If CM2.0 a non-starter on FoM grounds and a second referendum unthinkable, we are at stalemate.
And no deal on the 12th April
By the sounds of it the government is already preparing for EP elections, so a long extension.
He did not understand about the importance of the Dover-Calais route to our trade. I don't give two hoots about his academic record. I have spent over three decades dealing with people with fantastic academic records who are as stupid as fuck. Being good at whatever he was doing before he became an MP says nothing about his achievements as an MP and there and in Cabinet he has not distinguished himself. He looks - and is - out of his depth.
Not exactly what he said about Dover-Calais
He said he didn’t realise it was “quite as significant” as it was.
That’s a relative statement rather than the absolute one you report
I don't think there is a contradiction. But in any case it hardly helps his case, does it? Not quite as significant as what, exactly? Our exports from the port of Liverpool perhaps? Or Maryport? For God's sake, the first thing a Brexit secretary should have done is got a briefing on our trade and what routes it uses. He might even have thought to get such a briefing before he became a Brexiteer and started campaigning for us to leave.
In the context it sounded like (made up numbers for illustration) he thought it was 70% of trade and it turned out to be 80%
And it was a reference to before being appointed vs after it
Goodness knows that’s there’s enough to criticise the government for without making stuff up
I am not making anything up. He did not bother to properly brief himself on something he apparently cares deeply about. That makes him both stupid and frivolous. Not up to the job, as one C Attlee said of a minister he sacked.
There comes a point when you have to give up arguing with Charles when he is defending the indefensible.
I’m not defending Raab. I’m arguing that what he said was wilfully misrepresented by his political opponents. Unfortunately @Cyclefree has been taken in by it.
The issue is Raab should have done his homework before backing Brexit.
'I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing.'
I mean anyone else shocked that our most important trading route with the EU is the shortest distance between the UK and mainland Europe?
Your last paragraph is a misinterpretation
Of course he knows it is the most important trading route. He just “hadn’t quite understood the full extent”
Of course he knows it is the most important trading route. He just “hadn’t quite understood the full extent”
Indeed I think the point was specifically about the RoRo ability of Dover that isn't available on other routes. There are lots of routes from the UK to the continent but surprisingly few RoRo ones.
The issue is Raab should have done his homework before backing Brexit.
'I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing.'
I mean anyone else shocked that our most important trading route with the EU is the shortest distance between the UK and mainland Europe?
Your last paragraph is a misinterpretation
Of course he knows it is the most important trading route. He just “hadn’t quite understood the full extent”
I think it's more that he really should have thought about how it would sound before he opened his mouth and the words came out...
A lot of people saying the Customs Union is superficially attractive. In fact it's the other way round. A customs union is superficially unattractive. The decision isn't whether the customs union is good or bad per se. It's whether being in a customs union is better than not being in it. You might think it's bad to have follow others' rules. But following rules that apply mutually is better than having those rules applied against you.
Being in 'the' customs union is poor. Being in 'a' customs union is disastrous.
DUP will not support any of the amendments tonight
No deal looms larger minute by minute
My predictions from this afternoon
C - Loses by 1 D - Loses by 10 E - Loses by 25 G - Loses by 75+
I hope they all fail - the speaker is clearly not impartial and will be a hoot watching him try to justify bringing them back again
Indeed they're all terrible options that have been rejected multiple times, but who cares when the Speaker is as partial as Christopher Chope saying object to everything [except his friends of course]
He said he didn’t realise it was “quite as significant” as it was.
That’s a relative statement rather than the absolute one you report
I don't think there is a contradiction. But in any case it hardly helps his case, does it? Not quite as significant as what, exactly? Our exports from the port of Liverpool perhaps? Or Maryport? For God's sake, the first thing a Brexit secretary should have done is got a briefing on our trade and what routes it uses. He might even have thought to get such a briefing before he became a Brexiteer and started campaigning for us to leave.
In the context it sounded like (made up numbers for illustration) he thought it was 70% of trade and it turned out to be 80%
And it was a reference to before being appointed vs after it
Goodness knows that’s there’s enough to criticise the government for without making stuff up
I am not making anything up. He did not bother to properly brief himself on something he apparently cares deeply about. That makes him both stupid and frivolous. Not up to the job, as one C Attlee said of a minister he sacked.
There comes a point when you have to give up arguing with Charles when he is defending the indefensible.
I’m not defending Raab. I’m arguing that what he said was wilfully misrepresented by his political opponents. Unfortunately @Cyclefree has been taken in by it.
The issue is Raab should have done his homework before backing Brexit.
'I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing.'
I mean anyone else shocked that our most important trading route with the EU is the shortest distance between the UK and mainland Europe?
Your last paragraph is a misinterpretation
Of course he knows it is the most important trading route. He just “hadn’t quite understood the full extent”
Unhuh. Didn’t you also defend Grayling’s ferry ‘deal’ ?
DUP will not support any of the amendments tonight
No deal looms larger minute by minute
My predictions from this afternoon
C - Loses by 1 D - Loses by 10 E - Loses by 25 G - Loses by 75+
I hope they all fail - the speaker is clearly not impartial and will be a hoot watching him try to justify bringing them back again
Indeed they're all terrible options that have been rejected multiple times, but who cares when the Speaker is as partial as Christopher Chope saying object to everything [except his friends of course]
They are all possible solutions given that we are about to sleep walk into a No Deal situation nobody vaguely sane wants..
The remainer theory is that the CU passes and then the government requests a 9 month extension to amend the unamenable WA to include something the EU doesn't really want (membership of "the" customs union). It's more likely that this passes, the government packages it with the existing WA and dares Parliament to then vote against it having just voted for it.
Max, thanks for the honest answer. I don't see how anyone who remains opposed to the WA is going to support it because the Political Declaration is for a CU or Common Market 2.0 or whatever.
The fundamentals of the WA remain however much the PD is dressed up and, as last week showed, there is still a respectable majority opposed to the WA.
I don't see the point of today or of Parliament sitting at all unless they are prepared to consider the WA again but I can't see it passing.
As to whether May has enough support within the Conservative Party to seek a further and much longer extension, I can't speak to that. I suspect not so why would she try?
Again, I'm not sure either. I honestly don't understand where we go from here. As I said, the smart move would be to accept the winner of today's vote (CU/CM2), parcel it with the WA and put it to a vote tomorrow and dare Parliament to go back on the previous vote.
And this is why no deal is such a real possibilities and why the Tories could split real soon - even being willing how will May act upon whatever the Commons agree upon with that sort of pressure?
I thought those protestors were protesting against Parliament prevaricating over making a Brexit decision at first with daubings like “15th April” (bit off, but close enough) and “Stop wasting time!”
May we live in interesting times. The one thing the last 5 years have shown is how boring politics was between about 1997 and 2014. I don't know how we all put up with it at the time. Sometimes an entire year would go by with hardly anything of any interest happening in political terms.
DUP will not support any of the amendments tonight
No deal looms larger minute by minute
No, no, no, no!
Sadly, unless you can explain how it is stopped and the legislation needed to pass the HOC and HOL and gain Royal assent by a week on friday !!!
And I am totally against no deal but it is very real tonight
You are lagging behind the news BigG, the Attorney General has confirmed today to the Cabinet that if Common Market 2.0 or a Customs Union get a majority tonight and Letwin's Bill to make it law passes on Wednesday under the principal of Parliamentary Sovereignty under our constitution the Cabinet would be obliged to implement it and civil servants would have to implement it and submit it as the new British negotiating strategy the EU requires by April 12th.
He said he didn’t realise it was “quite as significant” as it was.
That’s a relative statement rather than the absolute one you report
I don't think there is a contradiction. But in any case it hardly helps his case, does it? Not quite as significant as what, exactly? Our exports from the port of Liverpool perhaps? Or Maryport? For God's sake, the first thing a Brexit secretary should have done is got a briefing on our trade and what routes it uses. He might even have thought to get such a briefing before he became a Brexiteer and started campaigning for us to leave.
In the context it sounded like (made up numbers for illustration) he thought it was 70% of trade and it turned out to be 80%
And it was a reference to before being appointed vs after it
Goodness knows that’s there’s enough to criticise the government for without making stuff up
I am not making anything up. He did not bother to properly brief himself on something he apparently cares deeply about. That makes him both stupid and frivolous. Not up to the job, as one C Attlee said of a minister he sacked.
There comes a point when you have to give up arguing with Charles when he is defending the indefensible.
I’m not defending Raab. I’m arguing that what he said was wilfully misrepresented by his political opponents. Unfortunately @Cyclefree has been taken in by it.
The issue is Raab should have done his homework before backing Brexit.
'I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing.'
I mean anyone else shocked that our most important trading route with the EU is the shortest distance between the UK and mainland Europe?
Your last paragraph is a misinterpretation
Of course he knows it is the most important trading route. He just “hadn’t quite understood the full extent”
Unhuh. Didn’t you also defend Grayling’s ferry ‘deal’ ?
DUP will not support any of the amendments tonight
No deal looms larger minute by minute
No, no, no, no!
Sadly, unless you can explain how it is stopped and the legislation needed to pass the HOC and HOL and gain Royal assent by a week on friday !!!
And I am totally against no deal but it is very real tonight
You are lagging behind the news BigG, the Attorney General has confirmed today that if Common Market 2.0 or a Customs Union get a majority tonight and Letwin's Bill to make it law passes on Wednesday under the principal of Parliamentary Sovereignty under our constitution the Cabinet would be obliged to implement it and civil servants would have to implement it and submit it as the new British negotiating strategy the EU requires by April 12th.
BINO not No Deal would become the legal default
I refer you to my post at 7.41. Stop spreading bollocks.
DUP will not support any of the amendments tonight
No deal looms larger minute by minute
No, no, no, no!
Sadly, unless you can explain how it is stopped and the legislation needed to pass the HOC and HOL and gain Royal assent by a week on friday !!!
And I am totally against no deal but it is very real tonight
You are lagging behind the news BigG, the Attorney General has confirmed today that if Common Market 2.0 or a Customs Union get a majority tonight and Letwin's Bill to make it law passes on Wednesday under the principal of Parliamentary Sovereignty under our constitution the Cabinet would be obliged to implement it and civil servants would have to implement it and submit it as the new British negotiating strategy the EU requires by April 12th.
BINO not No Deal would become the legal default
I refer you to my post at 7.41. Stop spreading bollocks.
May we live in interesting times. The one thing the last 5 years have shown is how boring politics was between about 1997 and 2014. I don't know how we all put up with it at the time. Sometimes an entire year would go by with hardly anything of any interest happening in political terms.
DUP will not support any of the amendments tonight
No deal looms larger minute by minute
No, no, no, no!
Sadly, unless you can explain how it is stopped and the legislation needed to pass the HOC and HOL and gain Royal assent by a week on friday !!!
And I am totally against no deal but it is very real tonight
You are lagging behind the news BigG, the Attorney General has confirmed today to the Cabinet that if Common Market 2.0 or a Customs Union get a majority tonight and Letwin's Bill to make it law passes on Wednesday under the principal of Parliamentary Sovereignty under our constitution the Cabinet would be obliged to implement it and civil servants would have to implement it and submit it as the new British negotiating strategy the EU requires by April 12th.
BINO not No Deal would become the legal default
No it would not. Because if the EU rejects it then we are back with No Deal.
More importantly, given the EU won't reopen the WA it would have no force in law. The next Government could simply reverse it.
May we live in interesting times. The one thing the last 5 years have shown is how boring politics was between about 1997 and 2014. I don't know how we all put up with it at the time. Sometimes an entire year would go by with hardly anything of any interest happening in political terms.
2013 was a particularly dull year. Not even much in the way of by elections as I recall.
DUP will not support any of the amendments tonight
No deal looms larger minute by minute
No, no, no, no!
Sadly, unless you can explain how it is stopped and the legislation needed to pass the HOC and HOL and gain Royal assent by a week on friday !!!
And I am totally against no deal but it is very real tonight
You are lagging behind the news BigG, the Attorney General has confirmed today to the Cabinet that if Common Market 2.0 or a Customs Union get a majority tonight and Letwin's Bill to make it law passes on Wednesday under the principal of Parliamentary Sovereignty under our constitution the Cabinet would be obliged to implement it and civil servants would have to implement it and submit it as the new British negotiating strategy the EU requires by April 12th.
BINO not No Deal would become the legal default
I did read your comments earlier but it is far from certain in this febrile atmosphere
May we live in interesting times. The one thing the last 5 years have shown is how boring politics was between about 1997 and 2014. I don't know how we all put up with it at the time. Sometimes an entire year would go by with hardly anything of any interest happening in political terms.
Politics became “interesting” for me, once more, c.2008 because it became competitive again, and we had major political change on the horizon with lots of long-standing issues and concerns being both aired and contested. Since then, the only quiet year I can think of that we’ve had is 2013.
I appreciate not everyone might share the same view.
Every form of Brexit is undeliverable without a backstop . Remain is the only way to have the UK and NI under the same rules .
The DUP don't appear to care about Brexit it all. I don't know why they've backed it this whole time.
I think, in their case, they might realise deep-down they’ve made a mistake.
They would have been totally up for it provided it cleaved NI even closer to the UK and drove a broader wedge between Eire and NI.
Since it doesn’t, they aren’t.
At the moment the DUP have their cake and eat it, while enjoying the luxury of blaming everyone else. They intend to remain, and are notable for being in favour of nothing which is even remotely possible. Time their bluff was called.
May we live in interesting times. The one thing the last 5 years have shown is how boring politics was between about 1997 and 2014. I don't know how we all put up with it at the time. Sometimes an entire year would go by with hardly anything of any interest happening in political terms.
2013 was a particularly dull year. Not even much in the way of by elections as I recall.
How can you forget the Eastleigh by election of February 2013?
Edit - There were two other by elections that year triggered by the resignations of Christian freedom fighter Martin McGuinness and the other by Ed Miliband's brother.
DUP will not support any of the amendments tonight
No deal looms larger minute by minute
No, no, no, no!
Sadly, unless you can explain how it is stopped and the legislation needed to pass the HOC and HOL and gain Royal assent by a week on friday !!!
And I am totally against no deal but it is very real tonight
You are lagging behind the news BigG, the Attorney General has confirmed today that if Common Market 2.0 or a Customs Union get a majority tonight and Letwin's Bill to make it law passes on Wednesday under the principal of Parliamentary Sovereignty under our constitution the Cabinet would be obliged to implement it and civil servants would have to implement it and submit it as the new British negotiating strategy the EU requires by April 12th.
BINO not No Deal would become the legal default
I refer you to my post at 7.41. Stop spreading bollocks.
Major new development tonight as the Evening Standard is reporting the Attorney General Geoffrey Cox has told the Cabinet that the Government would be legally bound if the Commons votes for an indicative option tonight and then also votes for a Bill MPs led by Letwin intend to rush through on Wednesday and Thursday.
Cox has told Ministers under our system of parliamentary sovereignty if they fail to work 'in good faith' for Common Market 2.0 or a Customs Union if the Commons votes for it that will be acting illegally. Civil servants, including the Brexit negotiating team, would have to then act under mandate direct from Parliament
It’s bollocks. Until you see it in writing from AG the hearsay is a straightforward lie to scare off votes for it. They tried the same tactic on the day last week.
As soon as they have their wicked vote suppression it will be just as like leadsome said in commons ‘well your recollection of what was said is different than mine, the only thing to have got most votes so far is May’s deal’
Not a major new development at all, just straightforward bollocks.
If AG said this, get him to repeat it at the dispatch box or in a written answer.
The bottom line is, this whole indicative vote thing can be brushed aside by the executive. The ministers and the PM have said this, they can ignore anything against their manifesto and they are correct.
No, it is the AG going entirely with the law and Constitution that Parliament is supreme which he would confirm at the despatch box either tomorrow or Wednesday.
The executive cannot ignore Parliament or the indicative vote winner by law if Letwin's Bill passes on Wednesday, if it does BINO becomes the legal default the executive and civil service will have to implement and No Deal would be dead.
The executive cannot ignore Parliament, the AG and the Speaker on the constitution. In any case given May has said she will not enable No Deal unless the Commons votes for it we will almost certainly be contesting the EU elections and in for a lengthy extension soon enough unless a sudden surge for her Deal
DUP will not support any of the amendments tonight
No deal looms larger minute by minute
No, no, no, no!
Sadly, unless you can explain how it is stopped and the legislation needed to pass the HOC and HOL and gain Royal assent by a week on friday !!!
And I am totally against no deal but it is very real tonight
You are lagging behind the news BigG, the Attorney General has confirmed today to the Cabinet that if Common Market 2.0 or a Customs Union get a majority tonight and Letwin's Bill to make it law passes on Wednesday under the principal of Parliamentary Sovereignty under our constitution the Cabinet would be obliged to implement it and civil servants would have to implement it and submit it as the new British negotiating strategy the EU requires by April 12th.
BINO not No Deal would become the legal default
Well, if it becomes law then of course it does.
Effectively Letwin would be the one commanding a majority of the House and de facto PM for that one issue.
It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that he becomes de jure PM as well if TM resigns and MPs make clear he’s the one that commands their confidence and HMQ might be obliged to send for him.
He could then appoint whoever he liked to his cabinet.
DUP will not support any of the amendments tonight
No deal looms larger minute by minute
No, no, no, no!
Sadly, unless you can explain how it is stopped and the legislation needed to pass the HOC and HOL and gain Royal assent by a week on friday !!!
And I am totally against no deal but it is very real tonight
You are lagging behind the news BigG, the Attorney General has confirmed today to the Cabinet that if Common Market 2.0 or a Customs Union get a majority tonight and Letwin's Bill to make it law passes on Wednesday under the principal of Parliamentary Sovereignty under our constitution the Cabinet would be obliged to implement it and civil servants would have to implement it and submit it as the new British negotiating strategy the EU requires by April 12th.
BINO not No Deal would become the legal default
I did read your comments earlier but it is far from certain in this febrile atmosphere
If that is the confirmed advice of the AG it is certain as he is the ultimate source of advice to the Cabinet on interpretation of the law and Constitution
DUP will not support any of the amendments tonight
No deal looms larger minute by minute
No, no, no, no!
Sadly, unless you can explain how it is stopped and the legislation needed to pass the HOC and HOL and gain Royal assent by a week on friday !!!
And I am totally against no deal but it is very real tonight
You are lagging behind the news BigG, the Attorney General has confirmed today to the Cabinet that if Common Market 2.0 or a Customs Union get a majority tonight and Letwin's Bill to make it law passes on Wednesday under the principal of Parliamentary Sovereignty under our constitution the Cabinet would be obliged to implement it and civil servants would have to implement it and submit it as the new British negotiating strategy the EU requires by April 12th.
BINO not No Deal would become the legal default
Well, if it becomes law then of course it does.
Effectively Letwin would be the one commanding a majority of the House and de facto PM for that one issue.
It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that he becomes de jure PM as well if TM resigns and MPs make clear he’s the one that commands their confidence and HMQ might be obliged to send for him.
He could then appoint whoever he liked to his cabinet.
Not impossible no, the ERG may have made a huge own goal by rejecting May's Deal
DUP will not support any of the amendments tonight
No deal looms larger minute by minute
No, no, no, no!
Sadly, unless you can explain how it is stopped and the legislation needed to pass the HOC and HOL and gain Royal assent by a week on friday !!!
And I am totally against no deal but it is very real tonight
You are lagging behind the news BigG, the Attorney General has confirmed today that if Common Market 2.0 or a Customs Union get a majority tonight and Letwin's Bill to make it law passes on Wednesday under the principal of Parliamentary Sovereignty under our constitution the Cabinet would be obliged to implement it and civil servants would have to implement it and submit it as the new British negotiating strategy the EU requires by April 12th.
BINO not No Deal would become the legal default
I refer you to my post at 7.41. Stop spreading bollocks.
May we live in interesting times. The one thing the last 5 years have shown is how boring politics was between about 1997 and 2014. I don't know how we all put up with it at the time. Sometimes an entire year would go by with hardly anything of any interest happening in political terms.
98-05 was a particularly dull period.
But, it sowed the seeds of much of what we’re experiencing today.
May we live in interesting times. The one thing the last 5 years have shown is how boring politics was between about 1997 and 2014. I don't know how we all put up with it at the time. Sometimes an entire year would go by with hardly anything of any interest happening in political terms.
2013 was a particularly dull year. Not even much in the way of by elections as I recall.
How can you forget the Eastleigh by election of February 2013?
Edit - There were two other by elections that year triggered by the resignations of Christian freedom fighter Martin McGuinness and the other by Ed Miliband's brother.
I can certainly remember the Eastleigh by election. I was joint top in the PB NoJam prediction contest.
Comments
Utterly pathetic and tragic that it’s come to this .
Just to help old Stodge out here - passing or not passing the CU doesn't make any difference because it's not part of the WA? Passing Common Market 2.0 might set the tone for the PD but how does any of this impact the WA which is the central issue between now and 12/4?
https://twitter.com/skintsolicitor2/status/1112431465445371904
Unless the WA clears the Commons we either have to go for a further extension (with all that entails) or leave without a WA on 12/4 (with all that entails).
The remainer theory is that the CU passes and then the government requests a 9 month extension to amend the unamenable WA to include something the EU doesn't really want (membership of "the" customs union). It's more likely that this passes, the government packages it with the existing WA and dares Parliament to then vote against it having just voted for it.
They’ll argue that anything’s better than purgatory in the backstop.
(wonder if anybody will get the reference
It does not look good for him.
As soon as they have their wicked vote suppression it will be just as like leadsome said in commons ‘well your recollection of what was said is different than mine, the only thing to have got most votes so far is May’s deal’
Not a major new development at all, just straightforward bollocks.
If AG said this, get him to repeat it at the dispatch box or in a written answer.
The bottom line is, this whole indicative vote thing can be brushed aside by the executive. The ministers and the PM have said this, they can ignore anything against their manifesto and they are correct.
It’s likely Mays plan wins but without a proper majority . Even if the CU wins tonight that would be due to many opposition votes and Tories who will back Mays deal in a run off.
Max, thanks for the honest answer. I don't see how anyone who remains opposed to the WA is going to support it because the Political Declaration is for a CU or Common Market 2.0 or whatever.
The fundamentals of the WA remain however much the PD is dressed up and, as last week showed, there is still a respectable majority opposed to the WA.
I don't see the point of today or of Parliament sitting at all unless they are prepared to consider the WA again but I can't see it passing.
As to whether May has enough support within the Conservative Party to seek a further and much longer extension, I can't speak to that. I suspect not so why would she try?
Of course he knows it is the most important trading route. He just “hadn’t quite understood the full extent”
No deal looms larger minute by minute
C - Loses by 1
D - Loses by 10
E - Loses by 25
G - Loses by 75+
Do you want a Blow Job
Yes
Its from a Piranha
Then No
Sorry you said yes Can't change your mind now
And I am totally against no deal but it is very real tonight
Every form of Brexit is undeliverable without a backstop . Remain is the only way to have the UK and NI under the same rules .
Didn’t you also defend Grayling’s ferry ‘deal’ ?
Missed it.
And if the letter isn’t printed and available to the public then his alleged 200 signatures can’t be verified.
It’s clear regardless that many Tory MPs are a disgrace and willing to throw their constituents under a bus with no deal.
Which will shortly collapse one way or the other.
I thought, fair cop.
BINO not No Deal would become the legal default
They would have been totally up for it provided it cleaved NI even closer to the UK and drove a broader wedge between Eire and NI.
Since it doesn’t, they aren’t.
Throw in cocktail sausages and pickled onions on sticks too and i am in.
In fact its my birthday today and disappointed Mrs BJ has not included them on the buffet.
Very nice picallili egg baskets mind (Cucumber Handles)
https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-titanic-crash-looms-for-the-government-a4106086.html
More importantly, given the EU won't reopen the WA it would have no force in law. The next Government could simply reverse it.
The Brexit inquiry will recommend long prison sentences for anyone advocating 'managed' no deal.
I appreciate not everyone might share the same view.
Edit - There were two other by elections that year triggered by the resignations of Christian freedom fighter Martin McGuinness and the other by Ed Miliband's brother.
Was it in a written answer?
Is it exactly the hearsay cabinet wants out there ahead of this voting?
Calling you out on this one HY.
The executive cannot ignore Parliament or the indicative vote winner by law if Letwin's Bill passes on Wednesday, if it does BINO becomes the legal default the executive and civil service will have to implement and No Deal would be dead.
The executive cannot ignore Parliament, the AG and the Speaker on the constitution. In any case given May has said she will not enable No Deal unless the Commons votes for it we will almost certainly be contesting the EU elections and in for a lengthy extension soon enough unless a sudden surge for her Deal
Effectively Letwin would be the one commanding a majority of the House and de facto PM for that one issue.
It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that he becomes de jure PM as well if TM resigns and MPs make clear he’s the one that commands their confidence and HMQ might be obliged to send for him.
He could then appoint whoever he liked to his cabinet.
https://twitter.com/JSHeappey/status/1112756993763233792
My second highest placing