The most recent book from Daily Mail Marxism expert Giles Udy claims that Marx attended the foundation conference of the Independent Labour Party in 1893. This is unlikely, not least because Marx died in 1883.
I think we can be 100% sure that this indicative vote malarkey is not going to resolve anything.
I love the way Kate Hoey (or Dominic Grieve on the other side) support for anything hard leave/hard remain makes a proposed motion or amendment "cross party" these days.
I think we can be 100% sure that this indicative vote malarkey is not going to resolve anything.
With the DUP being a blocker on both sides, then its ultimately going to have to involve a group of Tory MPs or Labour MPs voting against the leadership to get any majority.
Its certainly news to me that Cultural Marxism is tied up with anti-semitism. My understanding of the term was all about achieving socialism / marxism via campaigning hard for changes in societal norms.
Indeed, and in this sense cultural marxism can even be said to take in much of the 1960s counter- and protest culture - which is why it became such a popular term on the neo- and paleo-conservative right in the 1990s. The problem is that the internet age understanding of 'cultural marxism' has gradually morphed into something much broader, wide-ranging and more dangerous.
I'm no fan of Suella Braverman, but, really, this accusation of anti-semitism is utterly barmy. Look at what she actually said:
“We are engaging in many battles right now. As Conservatives we are engaged in a battle against cultural Marxism, where banning things is becoming de rigueur; where freedom of speech is becoming a taboo; where our universities, quintessential institutions of liberalism, are being shrouded in censorship and a culture of no-platforming.”
There is no conceivable way in which any sane person could possibly interpret that as anti-semitic.
She is probably too stupid to know that! She thought it sounded an intelligent phrase. I saw her on TV this morning saying people "voted for a no-deal Brexit". Funny, I didn't see that on my ballot paper and I am sure most leave advocates were saying there would be a deal.
(Snip...) Just like most people in finance are right wing but didn't go into finance in order to take control of the economy.
Its certainly news to me that Cultural Marxism is tied up with anti-semitism. My understanding of the term was all about achieving socialism / marxism via campaigning hard for changes in societal norms.
Indeed. It used to be. It has now become shorthand for Jews masterminding a worldwide plot to replace the "white race" via immigration and mixed marriages. Leading to homosexuality, free health care, no guns, anything else I don't like, blah, blah, blah....kill them all!!!! Which is why MPs should be bloody careful about using it. And preferably, unless they are specifically discussing the ideas of Gramsci, not do so.
As I don't visit places like 4chan, it has totally passed me by.
So busting the speed limit is not only the right of any freeborn Engishman but in this case saved my life. If I had been driving a Brussels approved Ford Quisling car that couldn't do it I would be dead. The EU would have (quite literally) killed me.
If you floor the accelerator you car would still accelerate under the new regulations.
The intent is to stop dozy drivers exceeding the speed limit because they aren't paying attention, not to enforce a speed limit in all circumstances.
Indeed. Many on this thread seem to be labouring under a gigantic misapprehension, and running with it (but hey, PB). To be clear these regs simply mandate that cars have a warning system, they won't mechanically govern the vehicle down to 80mph out 70mph or whatever.
I don't own a car, but like to hire nice exec cars when I need them. The last couple I have rented already had a very similar system. I still broke the limit, on open roads, from time to time, but the warning was useful.
What's the big problem? Anyone would think the gammons are getting all hot and bothered for the fun of it.
Never seen anyone being so baffling wrong about something, even on PB. From the well-known hotbed of gammonry, the Guardian:
All new cars sold in the UK and Europe are to be fitted with devices to automatically stop drivers exceeding the speed limit under sweeping changes to vehicle safety rules that the EU has provisionally agreed...
To be fair, the Daily Rant said that initially there would be an on / off switch, and when turned off it would just be a warning system. But this is seen as a temporary education period and that after consultation it is likely that they on / off override would be disabled.
This is the EU, they will of course go for the no override auto-limiter down the line, no matter what the consultation says.
My car (nissan) at the moment has a manual limiter option on it, but it's an option. I do use it 'sometime's when on motorway, but when I know the road, I know where the static cameras are..
I'm no fan of Suella Braverman, but, really, this accusation of anti-semitism is utterly barmy. Look at what she actually said:
“We are engaging in many battles right now. As Conservatives we are engaged in a battle against cultural Marxism, where banning things is becoming de rigueur; where freedom of speech is becoming a taboo; where our universities, quintessential institutions of liberalism, are being shrouded in censorship and a culture of no-platforming.”
There is no conceivable way in which any sane person could possibly interpret that as anti-semitic.
I think it turns on the fact that some people use "cultural Marxism" as code for "Jewish conspiracy" on social media, but clearly, a lot of people use the term without doing so.
It is like people who say if you fly the Union Flag you're racist because racists fly it.
TBF that's a fairly reliable indicator, unless it's a royal wedding or you're an embassy or whatever.
I don't think so and I find that rather sad.
Especially growing up overseas in Australia lots of homes proudly flew the Aussie flag without anyone second guessing it. And I saw many other nationalities flags [including the Union Flag] without anyone batting an eyelid either.
I got a Union Flag while at an Aus v Eng ODI while there and after moving back to the UK and into a Halls of Residence at University I flew the flag out my window without thinking twice about it . . . until one a couple of day later as I was walking back to the Halls with a friend of mine she said "urgh who is the BNP supporter?" and pointed at my flag. I took it down as I didn't want to give out the wrong idea but found that quite upsetting at the time.
Flying your own nation's flag should never be something to be ashamed off.
Well, this is kind of my point. Normal people don't fly the flag, because they don't want people to think they're BNP supporters. The people who don't mind people thinking they're BNP supporters are mostly... BNP supporters.
It didn't have to be that way; As you say, most countries' flags don't have that kind of symbolism. And you can argue it *shouldn't* be that way, and try to do what Billy Bragg failed to do and take back the symbol, but that would be an attempt to *change* what it communicates.
I think that’s nonsense.
Not only do I and many of my neighbors fly the union flag, but so so many shops and businesses in the high street. Not to mention Government buildings.
That is exactly the question, isn't it. For the likes of Suella Braverman, the bread on offer is beyond stale and riddled with maggots, and what's worse, Culturally Marxist ones, and so 'no loaf' is the only rational choice.
So busting the speed limit is not only the right of any freeborn Engishman but in this case saved my life. If I had been driving a Brussels approved Ford Quisling car that couldn't do it I would be dead. The EU would have (quite literally) killed me.
If you floor the accelerator you car would still accelerate under the new regulations.
The intent is to stop dozy drivers exceeding the speed limit because they aren't paying attention, not to enforce a speed limit in all circumstances.
Indeed. Many on this thread seem to be labouring under a gigantic misapprehension, and running with it (but hey, PB). To be clear these regs simply mandate that cars have a warning system, they won't mechanically govern the vehicle down to 80mph out 70mph or whatever.
I don't own a car, but like to hire nice exec cars when I need them. The last couple I have rented already had a very similar system. I still broke the limit, on open roads, from time to time, but the warning was useful.
What's the big problem? Anyone would think the gammons are getting all hot and bothered for the fun of it.
Never seen anyone being so baffling wrong about something, even on PB. From the well-known hotbed of gammonry, the Guardian:
All new cars sold in the UK and Europe are to be fitted with devices to automatically stop drivers exceeding the speed limit under sweeping changes to vehicle safety rules that the EU has provisionally agreed...
To be fair, the Daily Rant said that initially there would be an on / off switch, and when turned off it would just be a warning system. But this is seen as a temporary education period and that after consultation it is likely that they on / off override would be disabled.
This is the EU, they will of course go for the no override auto-limiter down the line, no matter what the consultation says.
Agreed, but that doesn't rescue the original post from its sheer, majestic and gammontastic wrongness. Savour this:
"To be clear these regs simply mandate that cars have a warning system, they won't mechanically govern the vehicle down to 80mph out 70mph or whatever. "
The Regius Professor of Wrongness at Wrong College, Cambridge could not do better.
I'm no fan of Suella Braverman, but, really, this accusation of anti-semitism is utterly barmy. Look at what she actually said:
“We are engaging in many battles right now. As Conservatives we are engaged in a battle against cultural Marxism, where banning things is becoming de rigueur; where freedom of speech is becoming a taboo; where our universities, quintessential institutions of liberalism, are being shrouded in censorship and a culture of no-platforming.”
There is no conceivable way in which any sane person could possibly interpret that as anti-semitic.
I think it turns on the fact that some people use "cultural Marxism" as code for "Jewish conspiracy" on social media, but clearly, a lot of people use the term without doing so.
It is like people who say if you fly the Union Flag you're racist because racists fly it.
TBF that's a fairly reliable indicator, unless it's a royal wedding or you're an embassy or whatever.
Is it?
I think so - who else flies one without a special occasion? Billy Bragg once tried to make it a thing but he was specifically trying to *take back* the flag from the racists.
His song where he demanded we, “tear down the Union Jack”.
I'm no fan of Suella Braverman, but, really, this accusation of anti-semitism is utterly barmy. Look at what she actually said:
“We are engaging in many battles right now. As Conservatives we are engaged in a battle against cultural Marxism, where banning things is becoming de rigueur; where freedom of speech is becoming a taboo; where our universities, quintessential institutions of liberalism, are being shrouded in censorship and a culture of no-platforming.”
There is no conceivable way in which any sane person could possibly interpret that as anti-semitic.
I think it turns on the fact that some people use "cultural Marxism" as code for "Jewish conspiracy" on social media, but clearly, a lot of people use the term without doing so.
It is like people who say if you fly the Union Flag you're racist because racists fly it.
TBF that's a fairly reliable indicator, unless it's a royal wedding or you're an embassy or whatever.
National flags need to be reclaimed from racists and extremists. Let them keep their ones with funny little twisted crosses and hammers and sickles and their silly salutes and uniforms, and let them be laughed at.
Agreed! National flags are not racist, bastardised versions with crosses etc absolutely can be.
Don't get me started on the cross of St George with ENGLAND defacing it!
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatso won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Characteristically self-effacing, and polite. Well done.
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatso won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Nah bollocks. Nigel is in the best tradition of the Conservative Party. It's people like you who give us, the Conservatives, a bad name as everyone thinks we're as moronically delusional as you.
In a sane world that would settle the backstop problem, so I don't suppose it will.
The problem from the EU end is that part of the "somewhere" will be an *internal* EU border, with extra checks between Ireland and everywhere else in the EU. Basically the British would be able to de-facto pull Ireland out of being a full member of the EU and pull them back into their own orbit. Geopolitically this goes against what the EU is trying to build, and for historical reasons the Irish are understandably not keen this. We also know, because they sometimes say so, that this is exactly the kind of thing the Tory Brexiters have in mind.
What's worse, this is the kind of thing that could happen by stealth: On Exit Day +1, Britain has the same rules as it did on Exit Day -1, but every time the British decide to do something different, they increase the need for people accepting Irish imports (etc) to do extra checks on them. And what's worse, it makes the EU and the countries that need to protect their own rules the bad guys, because they have to insist growing this new internal EU border.
Given their objectives and their leverage, neither Ireland nor the EU would be sane to let the British do this to them.
Speed limits are all fine and dandy - but there are times when you legitimately need to exceed the speed limit in order to avoid an incident. Speed limiters take away that control precisely at a time when you might actually need it to avoid a larger problem.
.
I believe some speed limiters allow temporary speed increases and acceleration over and above the speed limit for short periods - hopefully exactly the scenario you mention. For example, I think recent Jags will ignore the limiter if you fully depress the accelerator. It depends if EU-compatible ISA systems are allowed to have such capability.
Fully depress the accelerator doesn’t sound very safe to me.
I’d rather just disable it.
Disabling it temporarily is more of a faff - find the button or menu option, disable it, then accelerate. In an emergency pressing it harder seems far easier and more sensible.
And if you want to leave it permanently disabled, the problem is the requirement for a black box: it would be easy for legislation to say: "At MOT, download the data to see when the ISA system was disabled, and report it to authorities if it is for more than 10% of mileage." or somesuch.
And something like that will happen.
I think the biggest lesson of the 21st century, so far, is that if technology allows government and the institutions of the state to monitor you, they will.
I think it’s one of the most (if not, the most) serious political phenomena we face at the moment and I can see no real boundaries being placed on it.
It is not, of course, limited to government and state institutions; Facebook or Google are probably more effective at monitoring their users.
Privacy has to be coded into the system for it to exist. Apple, and (ironically) the EU with the GDPR have made tentative and/or flawed steps in that direction...
I don't know about anyone else but I don't particularly want my fridge to monitor what I'm doing. There's going to be a backlash against this type of thing soon. In China people are already finding that they can't book trains if they've annoyed the government.
Its certainly news to me that Cultural Marxism is tied up with anti-semitism. My understanding of the term was all about achieving socialism / marxism via campaigning hard for changes in societal norms.
Indeed. It used to be. It has now become shorthand for Jews masterminding a worldwide plot to replace the "white race" via immigration and mixed marriages. Leading to homosexuality, free health care, no guns, anything else I don't like, blah, blah, blah....kill them all!!!! Which is why MPs should be bloody careful about using it. And preferably, unless they are specifically discussing the ideas of Gramsci, not do so.
I must live a sheltered life because I have never ever heard of the use of the term in this context, except yesterday. It's not a term I use because it requires too much explanation, but I understand precisely what it means. Losing the economic battles but winning the cultural ones by infiltrating institutions.
I think we can be 100% sure that this indicative vote malarkey is not going to resolve anything.
With the DUP being a blocker on both sides, then its ultimately going to have to involve a group of Tory MPs or Labour MPs voting against the leadership to get any majority.
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatso won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
I wouldn’t worry. There is no chance that he gets through to the final 2.
Wasn't it widely believed that there was no chance of the UK voting to leave the EU at one, quite recent, time?
I’m an active member of the Tory Party and know a few MPs. Trust me; he has no chance.
If you don’t believe me, speak to TSE.
If Johnson was self-aware enough to know he stood no chance even in the days following the referendum, why does he still keep trying?
What proportion of the Tory membership do you think want to see him in the final 2, and if he isn't there, would consider it a "stitch up" by the "elite"? Who else would need to get through to the final 2 to assuage those members' fears? One issue I think the Tories have with selecting a new leader is the lack of democracy given to the members; if they don't trust the party MPs to pick the top 2 candidates, why should they bother with the party? (Ignoring negative partisanship, ofc)
I think in the current party membership there are probably quite a number who are still gullible enough to be taken in by the blond charlatan. I know it is only a personal opinion, but I am not convinced by the idea that giving the final say to members of either of the main parties is more "democratic" than just allowing the parliamentary parties to decide.
I believe this to be a sop to activists, and MPs don't have the balls to challenge it. The reality is that MPs represent "real" people; some who have party affiliations and most who do not. MPs are therefore far better qualified to make a decision who their parliamentary leader should be, both from an understanding of the real, more representative electorate and they have a better knowledge of the personalities of the potential leaders.
Again, I think many of your fellow members would disagree. Especially with their "will of the people" "parliament are traitors" feeling re May and her deal...
I don't know about anyone else but I don't particularly want my fridge to monitor what I'm doing. There's going to be a backlash to this type of thing soon.
That's quite enough Caramel Magnums for you, young man.
The Maybot probably is the worst person for PM at this time.
What we need is a cunning, sneaky, smoozer, that is willing to tell different people different things and have them walk away believing them with joy in their hearts, while also been ruthless in their determination to get a good deal and not falling into obvious traps.
Can Tony Blair be cloned and reprogrammed to be less pro-EU, cos that would probably do the trick.
I'm no fan of Suella Braverman, but, really, this accusation of anti-semitism is utterly barmy. Look at what she actually said:
“We are engaging in many battles right now. As Conservatives we are engaged in a battle against cultural Marxism, where banning things is becoming de rigueur; where freedom of speech is becoming a taboo; where our universities, quintessential institutions of liberalism, are being shrouded in censorship and a culture of no-platforming.”
There is no conceivable way in which any sane person could possibly interpret that as anti-semitic.
I think it turns on the fact that some people use "cultural Marxism" as code for "Jewish conspiracy" on social media, but clearly, a lot of people use the term without doing so.
It is like people who say if you fly the Union Flag you're racist because racists fly it.
TBF that's a fairly reliable indicator, unless it's a royal wedding or you're an embassy or whatever.
Is it?
I think so - who else flies one without a special occasion? Billy Bragg once tried to make it a thing but he was specifically trying to *take back* the flag from the racists.
His song where he demanded we, “tear down the Union Jack”.
That one?
Not really that one, he does this whole "progressive patriotism" thing. Not sure if it has any songs.
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatso won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Nah bollocks. Nigel is in the best tradition of the Conservative Party. It's people like you who give us, the Conservatives, a bad name as everyone thinks we're as moronically delusional as you.
Yeah, I'm about as lefty as you can get in polite society, and I'd rather chat to Topping, Nigel and other well thought out Tories on here than the sort of foaming at the mount guff that comes from Casino or Sean_T...
Its certainly news to me that Cultural Marxism is tied up with anti-semitism. My understanding of the term was all about achieving socialism / marxism via campaigning hard for changes in societal norms.
Indeed, and in this sense cultural marxism can even be said to take in much of the 1960 counterculture - which is why it became such a popular term on the neo- and paleo-conservative right in the 1990's. The problem is that the internet age understanding of 'cultural marxism' has become something different entirely, and gradually much more dangerous.
You are saying there are two definitions of 'cultural Marxism', one of which relates to some loony conspiracy theory in distant parts of the internet (although most of us didn't know that until yesterday), and the other of which does not and has been around for some time as a perfectly unobjectionable phrase. So Suella Braverman uses the phrase, and - this is the important bit, which her critics are wilfully ignoring - helpfully provides a description of what she means by it:
"cultural Marxism, where banning things is becoming de rigueur; where freedom of speech is becoming a taboo; where our universities, quintessential institutions of liberalism, are being shrouded in censorship and a culture of no-platforming".
Nothing whatsoever to do with the loony conspiracy theory which we're told exists in distant parts of internet chat sites. So not anti-semitic, and absolutely nothing to criticise her for.
Yes, for the sake of clarity, it might be better not to use the phrase because it has become debased, but that's a different point.
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatsoth won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Nah bollocks. Nigel is in the best tradition of the Conservative Party. It's people like you who give us, the Conservatives, a bad name as everyone thinks we're as moronically delusional as you.
That’s a shame as I was just going to say you’ve got much better and more practical recently, even though we’ve locked horns in the past.
Unless you’ve been living in a cave you’ll have noticed that I’m not a supporter of the ERG and my posts have been urging support of the Deal for some time, so there’s nothing delusional about them.
Islamophobia is a foolish term because it conflates two things, one of which is abhorrent (bigotry against people for being Muslim) and one of which is essential (the right to question, satirise, or ridicule an idea).
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatso won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Nah bollocks. Nigel is in the best tradition of the Conservative Party. It's people like you who give us, the Conservatives, a bad name as everyone thinks we're as moronically delusional as you.
I'm no fan of Suella Braverman, but, really, this accusation of anti-semitism is utterly barmy. Look at what she actually said:
“We are engaging in many battles right now. As Conservatives we are engaged in a battle against cultural Marxism, where banning things is becoming de rigueur; where freedom of speech is becoming a taboo; where our universities, quintessential institutions of liberalism, are being shrouded in censorship and a culture of no-platforming.”
There is no conceivable way in which any sane person could possibly interpret that as anti-semitic.
She is probably too stupid to know that! She thought it sounded an intelligent phrase. I saw her on TV this morning saying people "voted for a no-deal Brexit". Funny, I didn't see that on my ballot paper and I am sure most leave advocates were saying there would be a deal.
(Snip...) Just like most people in finance are right wing but didn't go into finance in order to take control of the economy.
Well, the less ambitious amongst them. anyway.
Well yes, as I was writing that it occurred to me it might not even be true! But I think the general point stands, that some professions lean one way or another politically and it is not a result of a sinister conspiracy.
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatso won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Characteristically self-effacing, and polite. Well done.
Like I said the other day, there’s something about being given the first name, “Nigel”.
If we’re going to do Big Brother maybe we should make future christenings thereof tantamount to child abuse.
Not only do I and many of my neighbors fly the union flag, but so so many shops and businesses in the high street. Not to mention Government buildings.
Government buildings do, that's a totally different vibe.
I think the biggest lesson of the 21st century, so far, is that if technology allows government and the institutions of the state to monitor you, they will.
I think it’s one of the most (if not, the most) serious political phenomena we face at the moment and I can see no real boundaries being placed on it.
Really?
I mean...
1) the tech for ID cards has been there for decades but we still don't have them
2) there is a very clear lack of coordination in government data; if what you say were true, the NHS wouldn't have to check if your address had changed, because they would be notified by central government. You fill out a form at the opticians if you're on benefits to show you don't have to pay. Even within the tax and benefits systems you sometimes have to shuffle information from one to the other.
3) and then the electoral register is entirely separate from the above databases as well and you don't even have to bring a poll card to the polling station.
Of course, the security services are going to do whatever they can if they think you are a terrorist, but you're acting like the government is tracking people's Google phone locations and arresting people for speeding on the basis of that.
3 is no longer true in some places. We're 'trialling' photo (etc) ID and the Acting Returning Officer isn't interested in discussing it.
I'm no fan of Suella Braverman, but, really, this accusation of anti-semitism is utterly barmy. Look at what she actually said:
“We are engaging in many battles right now. As Conservatives we are engaged in a battle against cultural Marxism, where banning things is becoming de rigueur; where freedom of speech is becoming a taboo; where our universities, quintessential institutions of liberalism, are being shrouded in censorship and a culture of no-platforming.”
There is no conceivable way in which any sane person could possibly interpret that as anti-semitic.
Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that in the context of that sentence, there is no conceivable way in which the usage or intention was anti-semitic.
I think it's clear that since the whole Labour antisemitism row, the Left have tried their hardest to show the Tories in a bad light with regards to Islamophobia and, if possible, antisemitism. I think they've overreached on this occasion.
Yes of course they have. Look at BJO of this parish - desperately searching to find any scrap of something he can use for whataboutism.
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@SayeedaWarsi Follow Follow @SayeedaWarsi More Another Monday morning aaaannnnddd another bunch of bigots found out @Conservatives 🤦🏽♀️ So @BrandonLewis are these five members of the Party and are you going to expel “swiftly”? #DailyDetox
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatso won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Characteristically self-effacing, and polite. Well done.
Like I said the other day, there’s something about being given the first name, “Nigel”.
If we’re going to do Big Brother maybe we should make future christenings thereof tantamount to child abuse.
Its certainly news to me that Cultural Marxism is tied up with anti-semitism. My understanding of the term was all about achieving socialism / marxism via campaigning hard for changes in societal norms.
Indeed, and in this sense cultural marxism can even be said to take in much of the 1960 counterculture - which is why it became such a popular term on the neo- and paleo-conservative right in the 1990's. The problem is that the internet age understanding of 'cultural marxism' has become something different entirely, and gradually much more dangerous.
You are saying there are two definitions of 'cultural Marxism', one of which relates to some loony conspiracy theory in distant parts of the internet (although most of us didn't know that until yesterday), and the other of which does not and has been around for some time as a perfectly unobjectionable phrase. So Suella Braverman uses the phrase, and - this is the important bit, which her critics are wilfully ignoring - helpfully provides a description of what she means by it:
"cultural Marxism, where banning things is becoming de rigueur; where freedom of speech is becoming a taboo; where our universities, quintessential institutions of liberalism, are being shrouded in censorship and a culture of no-platforming".
Nothing whatsoever to do with the loony conspiracy theory which we're told exists in distant parts of internet chat sites. So not anti-semitic, and absolutely nothing to criticise her for.
Yes, for the sake of clarity, it might be better not to use the phrase because it has become debased, but that's a different point.
It is a little bit like the use of coloured the other week causing an outrage. It was a slip of the tongue in the context where an MP was rising above politics and defending an MP on the opposing side over abuse that they had been receiving.
Rather than a quiet you should use the term "person of colour", but thanks for rising above party politics on this one, they just got loads of "your a racist" incoming.
The Maybot probably is the worst person for PM at this time.
What we need is a cunning, sneaky, smoozer, that is willing to tell different people different things and have them walk away believing them with joy in their hearts, while also been ruthless in their determination to get a good deal and not falling into obvious traps.
Can Tony Blair be cloned and reprogrammed to be less pro-EU, cos that would probably do the trick.
May is a cunning, sadistic, gaslighter who deals in psychological warfare. She's the ideal person to do this job.
Not only do I and many of my neighbors fly the union flag, but so so many shops and businesses in the high street. Not to mention Government buildings.
Government buildings do, that's a totally different vibe.
If you wanted to make that argument, you’d do better to contextualise it further.
Flying it in a nationalist area of Northern Ireland, or in a very immigrant mixed neighbourhood as a identifier together with slogans, football flags etc., might be an identifier, even if I still wouldn’t agree with the premise.
I'm no fan of Suella Braverman, but, really, this accusation of anti-semitism is utterly barmy. Look at what she actually said:
“We are engaging in many battles right now. As Conservatives we are engaged in a battle against cultural Marxism, where banning things is becoming de rigueur; where freedom of speech is becoming a taboo; where our universities, quintessential institutions of liberalism, are being shrouded in censorship and a culture of no-platforming.”
There is no conceivable way in which any sane person could possibly interpret that as anti-semitic.
Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that in the context of that sentence, there is no conceivable way in which the usage or intention was anti-semitic.
I think it's clear that since the whole Labour antisemitism row, the Left have tried their hardest to show the Tories in a bad light with regards to Islamophobia and, if possible, antisemitism. I think they've overreached on this occasion.
Yes of course they have. Look at BJO of this parish - desperately searching to find any scrap of something he can use for whataboutism.
Sayeeda Warsi Verified account
@SayeedaWarsi Follow Follow @SayeedaWarsi More Another Monday morning aaaannnnddd another bunch of bigots found out @Conservatives 🤦🏽♀️ So @BrandonLewis are these five members of the Party and are you going to expel “swiftly”? #DailyDetox
I don't know about anyone else but I don't particularly want my fridge to monitor what I'm doing. There's going to be a backlash to this type of thing soon.
That's quite enough Caramel Magnums for you, young man.
If you store caramel magnums in the fridge rather than the freezer I think that's already indicative of a substantial magnum habit.
I'm no fan of Suella Braverman, but, really, this accusation of anti-semitism is utterly barmy. Look at what she actually said:
“We are engaging in many battles right now. As Conservatives we are engaged in a battle against cultural Marxism, where banning things is becoming de rigueur; where freedom of speech is becoming a taboo; where our universities, quintessential institutions of liberalism, are being shrouded in censorship and a culture of no-platforming.”
There is no conceivable way in which any sane person could possibly interpret that as anti-semitic.
I think it turns on the fact that some people use "cultural Marxism" as code for "Jewish conspiracy" on social media, but clearly, a lot of people use the term without doing so.
It is like people who say if you fly the Union Flag you're racist because racists fly it.
TBF that's a fairly reliable indicator, unless it's a royal wedding or you're an embassy or whatever.
Is it?
I think so - who else flies one without a special occasion? Billy Bragg once tried to make it a thing but he was specifically trying to *take back* the flag from the racists.
Perhaps Hertfordshire/Bedfordshire are unusual, but it's not that uncommon to see Union Flags being flown in country areas. It would never have occurred to me that the people flying them are racists.
I'm no fan of Suella Braverman, but, really, this accusation of anti-semitism is utterly barmy. Look at what she actually said:
“We are engaging in many battles right now. As Conservatives we are engaged in a battle against cultural Marxism, where banning things is becoming de rigueur; where freedom of speech is becoming a taboo; where our universities, quintessential institutions of liberalism, are being shrouded in censorship and a culture of no-platforming.”
There is no conceivable way in which any sane person could possibly interpret that as anti-semitic.
I think it turns on the fact that some people use "cultural Marxism" as code for "Jewish conspiracy" on social media, but clearly, a lot of people use the term without doing so.
It is like people who say if you fly the Union Flag you're racist because racists fly it.
TBF that's a fairly reliable indicator, unless it's a royal wedding or you're an embassy or whatever.
Is it?
I think so - who else flies one without a special occasion? Billy Bragg once tried to make it a thing but he was specifically trying to *take back* the flag from the racists.
His song where he demanded we, “tear down the Union Jack”.
That one?
Not really that one, he does this whole "progressive patriotism" thing. Not sure if it has any songs.
It does, that’s one of them.
He also signs the Red Flag, whilst punching the air, so I tend to take his “progressive patriotism” with a bit of a pinch of salt.
Not only do I and many of my neighbors fly the union flag, but so so many shops and businesses in the high street. Not to mention Government buildings.
Government buildings do, that's a totally different vibe.
If you wanted to make that argument, you’d do better to contextualise it further.
Flying it in a nationalist area of Northern Ireland, or in a very immigrant mixed neighbourhood as a identifier together with slogans, football flags etc., might be an identifier, even if I still wouldn’t agree with the premise.
Agree, and also there's a whole tourist angle which is obviously a totally different thing.
I think we can be 100% sure that this indicative vote malarkey is not going to resolve anything.
Cant see this being on Bercows list.
Its a wrecking option.
Half the business in front of him this afternoon is designed to wreck the whole exercise. He has an unenviable task this afternoon - although looking at his predecessors it is hard to see anyone who could cope with the complexity and disruptiveness of it any better. Weatherill, perhaps, although he maybe wasn't sufficiently combative.
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatso won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Characteristically self-effacing, and polite. Well done.
Like I said the other day, there’s something about being given the first name, “Nigel”.
If we’re going to do Big Brother maybe we should make future christenings thereof tantamount to child abuse.
The Maybot probably is the worst person for PM at this time.
What we need is a cunning, sneaky, smoozer, that is willing to tell different people different things and have them walk away believing them with joy in their hearts, while also been ruthless in their determination to get a good deal and not falling into obvious traps.
Can Tony Blair be cloned and reprogrammed to be less pro-EU, cos that would probably do the trick.
Harold Wilson is probably the best equipped of previous PMs
Its certainly news to me that Cultural Marxism is tied up with anti-semitism. My understanding of the term was all about achieving socialism / marxism via campaigning hard for changes in societal norms.
Indeed, and in this sense cultural marxism can even be said to take in much of the 1960 counterculture - which is why it became such a popular term on the neo- and paleo-conservative right in the 1990's. The problem is that the internet age understanding of 'cultural marxism' has become something different entirely, and gradually much more dangerous.
You are saying there are two definitions of 'cultural Marxism', one of which relates to some loony conspiracy theory in distant parts of the internet (although most of us didn't know that until yesterday), and the other of which does not and has been around for some time as a perfectly unobjectionable phrase. So Suella Braverman uses the phrase, and - this is the important bit, which her critics are wilfully ignoring - helpfully provides a description of what she means by it:
"cultural Marxism, where banning things is becoming de rigueur; where freedom of speech is becoming a taboo; where our universities, quintessential institutions of liberalism, are being shrouded in censorship and a culture of no-platforming".
Nothing whatsoever to do with the loony conspiracy theory which we're told exists in distant parts of internet chat sites. So not anti-semitic, and absolutely nothing to criticise her for.
Yes, for the sake of clarity, it might be better not to use the phrase because it has become debased, but that's a different point.
The other point is that she almost certainly didn't realise it had become debased until the backlash to her usage.
If the left could start sending out weekly bulletins on which words and phrases we're no longer allowed to use, it would be much appreciated by those of us who don't want to spend time trawling horrible corners of the internet to find out.
Brokenshire being asked about Tory Islamophobia on DP
Not a Race apparently
RN "Whataboutery"
What race is Yago Riedijk?
Never heard of him
BJO: yet again, I am amused by the way your razor-sharp detection of Conservative Islamaphobia contrasts with your utter denial and excusing of Labour anti-Semitism.
None of this helps in understanding what the DUP want as opposed to what they don't. Can anyone explain?
They want Remain for which the tories take 100% of the blame.
Correct. They face a choice between accepting the backstop and potentially thwarting Brexit. And it's Brexit that will go under the bus. The backstop will not be accepted under any circumstances as it undermines the DUP's whole raison d'etre, to keep the relationship between GB and NI unaltered.
Karen Bradley has clearly been advising the ERG on Irish politics - if they really understood the DUP they would never have contracted out the decision on the deal to them.
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatso won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Characteristically self-effacing, and polite. Well done.
Like I said the other day, there’s something about being given the first name, “Nigel”.
If we’re going to do Big Brother maybe we should make future christenings thereof tantamount to child abuse.
Brokenshire being asked about Tory Islamophobia on DP
Not a Race apparently
RN "Whataboutery"
BJO, let me explain.
We had a question from a party member about Islamophobia in the party at our AGM. Our (Muslim) MP gave a very full and heartfelt answer. She has been very involved with supporting other MPs from all parties who have been on the receiving end of hateful bile and sometimes worse (she was a very good friend of Jo Cox), so she's well informed on the subject.
The truth of the matter is that there is Islamophobia in the Conservative Party, as I have agreed on previous occasions. I have also said that I think Baroness Warsi has a point that it is not always addressed as vigorously as it should be. However, the truth of the matter is also that there is Islamophobia in other parties and institutions; it's quite a widespread problem. I'm quite certain you'd find some if you looked at Labour supporters, activists and councillors in, for example, Northern predominantly white working-class constituencies.
None of this alters the fact that Labour has a major, institutional issue with anti-semitism, coming from the top, which is of a quite different scale to the issues of Islamophobia in the Conservative, Labour or any other major party. Jewish MPs have been hounded out, really vicious anti-semites appointed to senior position in the party, and your leader seems to support extreme anti-semites. The Equalities and Human Rights has launched an investigation.
I'd hesitate to say the 'respectable' use of cultural marxism is the dominant one, nowadays. It requires a reasonable degree of knowledge and patience with concepts. The non-respectable use I've seen on hobbyists' forums, on youtube, at the bbc's site, at the telegraph, etc. It represents a dangerous kind of normalisation.
I'm no fan of Suella Braverman, but, really, this accusation of anti-semitism is utterly barmy. Look at what she actually said:
“We are engaging in many battles right now. As Conservatives we are engaged in a battle against cultural Marxism, where banning things is becoming de rigueur; where freedom of speech is becoming a taboo; where our universities, quintessential institutions of liberalism, are being shrouded in censorship and a culture of no-platforming.”
There is no conceivable way in which any sane person could possibly interpret that as anti-semitic.
I think it turns on the fact that some people use "cultural Marxism" as code for "Jewish conspiracy" on social media, but clearly, a lot of people use the term without doing so.
It is like people who say if you fly the Union Flag you're racist because racists fly it.
TBF that's a fairly reliable indicator, unless it's a royal wedding or you're an embassy or whatever.
Is it?
I think so - who else flies one without a special occasion? Billy Bragg once tried to make it a thing but he was specifically trying to *take back* the flag from the racists.
His song where he demanded we, “tear down the Union Jack”.
That one?
Not really that one, he does this whole "progressive patriotism" thing. Not sure if it has any songs.
It does, that’s one of them.
He also signs the Red Flag, whilst punching the air, so I tend to take his “progressive patriotism” with a bit of a pinch of salt.
Better the Reg Flag than the blue one with a circle of stars on it.
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatsoth won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Nah bollocks. Nigel is in the best tradition of the Conservative Party. It's people like you who give us, the Conservatives, a bad name as everyone thinks we're as moronically delusional as you.
That’s a shame as I was just going to say you’ve got much better and more practical recently, even though we’ve locked horns in the past.
Unless you’ve been living in a cave you’ll have noticed that I’m not a supporter of the ERG and my posts have been urging support of the Deal for some time, so there’s nothing delusional about them.
You have been a supporter of any number of absurd, delusional, moronic ideas on Brexit.
That you only belatedly realised that the deal was the only non-absurd, delusional, moronic plan out there is not something to trumpet, frankly.
If 'Cultral Maxism' is now deemed to be anti-semitic, can we also do the same for 'neo-liberal elites'??
Cultural Marxism has always been an acceptable term of abuse on all sides of the political spectrum with the obvious exception of believers in Cultural Marxism.
Given that was about half a dozen professors in Frankfurt and Chicago in the 1950s I am not sure there could be many complaints.
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatsoth won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Nah bollocks. Nigel is in the best tradition of the Conservative Party. It's people like you who give us, the Conservatives, a bad name as everyone thinks we're as moronically delusional as you.
That’s a shame as I was just going to say you’ve got much better and more practical recently, even though we’ve locked horns in the past.
Unless you’ve been living in a cave you’ll have noticed that I’m not a supporter of the ERG and my posts have been urging support of the Deal for some time, so there’s nothing delusional about them.
You have been a supporter of any number of absurd, delusional, moronic ideas on Brexit.
That you only belatedly realised that the deal was the only non-absurd, delusional, moronic plan out there is not something to trumpet, frankly.
Incorrect. I’ve supported the Deal consistently since the start.
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatso won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Characteristically self-effacing, and polite. Well done.
Like I said the other day, there’s something about being given the first name, “Nigel”.
If we’re going to do Big Brother maybe we should make future christenings thereof tantamount to child abuse.
I clearly should have added charm to the list.
You don’t have that either.
And wit.
Correct. Your list of failings is, sadly, a long one.
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatso won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Characteristically self-effacing, and polite. Well done.
Like I said the other day, there’s something about being given the first name, “Nigel”.
If we’re going to do Big Brother maybe we should make future christenings thereof tantamount to child abuse.
I clearly should have added charm to the list.
You don’t have that either.
And wit.
Correct. Your list of failings is, sadly, a long one.
Oh, and I missed self-awareness. And re-reading our exchange, comprehension ability.
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatsoth won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Nah bollocks. Nigel is in the best tradition of the Conservative Party. It's people like you who give us, the Conservatives, a bad name as everyone thinks we're as moronically delusional as you.
That’s a shame as I was just going to say you’ve got much better and more practical recently, even though we’ve locked horns in the past.
Unless you’ve been living in a cave you’ll have noticed that I’m not a supporter of the ERG and my posts have been urging support of the Deal for some time, so there’s nothing delusional about them.
You have been a supporter of any number of absurd, delusional, moronic ideas on Brexit.
That you only belatedly realised that the deal was the only non-absurd, delusional, moronic plan out there is not something to trumpet, frankly.
Incorrect. I’ve supported the Deal consistently since the start.
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatsoth won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Nah bollocks. Nigel is in the best tradition of the Conservative Party. It's people like you who give us, the Conservatives, a bad name as everyone thinks we're as moronically delusional as you.
That’s a shame as I was just going to say you’ve got much better and more practical recently, even though we’ve locked horns in the past.
Unless you’ve been living in a cave you’ll have noticed that I’m not a supporter of the ERG and my posts have been urging support of the Deal for some time, so there’s nothing delusional about them.
You have been a supporter of any number of absurd, delusional, moronic ideas on Brexit.
That you only belatedly realised that the deal was the only non-absurd, delusional, moronic plan out there is not something to trumpet, frankly.
Incorrect. I’ve supported the Deal consistently since the start.
Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
You can't even get the thread right.
Its exchanges like that make we think the Conservatives should just call it a day and split
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatsoth won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
Whilst I don’t disagree with your views of Boris, you are an awful advert for the Conservative Party, which we share.
There are Labour posters on here I far prefer to you, and you’re routinely pompous, condescending and rude.
Change your style.
Nah bollocks. Nigel is in the best tradition of the Conservative Party. It's people like you who give us, the Conservatives, a bad name as everyone thinks we're as moronically delusional as you.
That’s a shame as I was just going to say you’ve got much better and more practical recently, even though we’ve locked horns in the past.
Unless you’ve been living in a cave you’ll have noticed that I’m not a supporter of the ERG and my posts have been urging support of the Deal for some time, so there’s nothing delusional about them.
You have been a supporter of any number of absurd, delusional, moronic ideas on Brexit.
That you only belatedly realised that the deal was the only non-absurd, delusional, moronic plan out there is not something to trumpet, frankly.
Incorrect. I’ve supported the Deal consistently since the start.
Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
You can't even get the thread right.
Its exchanges like that make we think the Conservatives should just call it a day and split
Well if the wrong person gets in to lead them I will for sure be offski.
I don't know about anyone else but I don't particularly want my fridge to monitor what I'm doing. There's going to be a backlash to this type of thing soon.
That's quite enough Caramel Magnums for you, young man.
Perhaps it's the heads in jars he's more worried about.
It’s still safer to travel at 50mph, or not to travel at all and stay at home.
There are trade offs: including the economy, speed, and pleasure.
The speed limits have been the same for a very long time so I find it hard to see how they’ve been a decisive factor in reductions over the last 20-30 years.
What I mean is that if speed limits had been increased "because cars are safer now", then casualty rates would be higher than they actually are.
I agree there are trade-offs. I'm happy with a motorway limit of 70mph. There are some roads where the speed limit is too low (there's one outside my window here, which is a 30 and should be a 40), but those are specific cases and probably rare.
I can think of two roads in my area which are 30 and should be 40. Funnily enough, the police like to do speed traps on them.
The most dangerous roads, in my experience, are country lanes - barely wide enough for two cars - which are “nominally” NSL out in the sticks but full of bends and blind corners with vans and cars doing 60mph+ - often in the middle of the road - where 30-40mph and caution would be far more sensible.
I think the biggest lesson of the 21st century, so far, is that if technology allows government and the institutions of the state to monitor you, they will.
I think it’s one of the most (if not, the most) serious political phenomena we face at the moment and I can see no real boundaries being placed on it.
Really?
I mean...
1) the tech for ID cards has been there for decades but we still don't have them
2) there is a very clear lack of coordination in government data; if what you say were true, the NHS wouldn't have to check if your address had changed, because they would be notified by central government. You fill out a form at the opticians if you're on benefits to show you don't have to pay. Even within the tax and benefits systems you sometimes have to shuffle information from one to the other.
3) and then the electoral register is entirely separate from the above databases as well and you don't even have to bring a poll card to the polling station.
Of course, the security services are going to do whatever they can if they think you are a terrorist, but you're acting like the government is tracking people's Google phone locations and arresting people for speeding on the basis of that.
3 is no longer true in some places. We're 'trialling' photo (etc) ID and the Acting Returning Officer isn't interested in discussing it.
On point 2... maybe Casino's original point would be better phrased as "if *government* technology allows government to monitor".
ie if Google were in charge of government IT, it's a fair bet it would be far better joined up for better and/or for worse. My impression is this isn't because of a lack of relevant skill.. but because with few honourable exceptions*, silo government is still alive and well.
Maybe we should be grateful there's a lack of left hand/right hand co-ordination, on balance!
(*Like being able to use your passport pic for your driving licence etc)
Mr. Royale, I agree with that. If the fools who want purely electronic money get their way, that's yet another downside.
I assume you mean phasing out cash, rather than mainstreaming Bitcoin and the like. Since one goal of the proponents of cryptocurrency is explicitly to make governmental oversight of transactions all but impossible.
For the record, I'm in favour of getting rid of cash as quickly as is practical, and think that crypto is bonkers.
You realise you pay seigniorage on non-cash money but not on cash transactions. It’s one of the banks’ dirty secrets.
Car speed limiters in 2022, we're getting them whether in the EU or not.
Isn’t this a complete non story? Speed limiting technology does not enforce speed limits, it allows drivers to control their speed by means other than the accelerator and the brake.
No - It very much is a story and the EU will pass it into law in September applying to all new cars and commercial vehicles from 2022. The speed will be governed by a limiter based on gps. The driver will be able to override the speed limiter but aftet a short period an audible warning will cut in
Also according to 5Live, we have already signed up to it.
All it does is give an audible and visual warning of exceeding the speed limit, not prevent anyone from speeding. Estimated to save 360 RTA deaths per year in UK.
Middle East and Asian markets have had the 120km/h "chime" for years. We once did a run ashore in Bahrain where it was a point of honour for the designated driver of the hire care to have it going off as often as possible. We called it the "Fuck Yeah Bell". That was the same trip where we got beat by the RAF VC10 crews in a reverse gear race across the island and I got locked up by the Bahraini cops.
You really do need to sign up as presenter of a post-watershed Top Gear replacement.
My car is going to be featured on a popular YouTube channel for highly modified deathtraps when I've finished building it. Maybe that will be my big break!
Arguably the best way to improve driving would be to remove drivers seatbelts and airbags, and have a large metal spike stiking towards the drivers heart from the centre of the steering wheel. It would do wonders for our organ donation programme too, which is really quite reliant on stupid young men killing themselves in accidents.
No advantage to do the same for passengers, obviously!
Not so good for heart donations, mind.
TUD, I thought you were wandering the streets of Berlin, what you doing on here.
Car speed limiters in 2022, we're getting them whether in the EU or not.
Isn’t this a complete non story? Speed limiting technology does not enforce speed limits, it allows drivers to control their speed by means other than the accelerator and the brake.
No - It very much is a story and the EU will pass it into law in September applying to all new cars and commercial vehicles from 2022. The speed will be governed by a limiter based on gps. The driver will be able to override the speed limiter but aftet a short period an audible warning will cut in
There’s an awful lot of shitcake nannying legislation coming out of the EU this week that reminds me why I voted to Leave. They seem intent on taking all the freedom and pleasure out of driving.
It’s reminded me why I voted to Leave and felt so strongly about it prior to the vote.
You take pleasure out of breaking the law by exceeding the speed limit?
Who does not?
Quite a few people never break speed limits by design. It has always amused me how many who would consider themselves on the side of law and order think they have the right to ignore laws they dislike as soon as they get in their car, even though they are designed to prevent injury and death.
The only clearly sensible exception to me is overtaking on single carriage roads, which should be completed as swiftly as possible. I find 20mph infuriating, but spend little time driving in socialist boroughs of London, so it doesn’t affect me.
Speeding in urban areas and on country roads is stupid, but doing 80-85 on a motorway makes little difference. Motorways are by far the safest roads on which to drive.
Speed limits are all fine and dandy - but there are times when you legitimately need to exceed the speed limit in order to avoid an incident. Speed limiters take away that control precisely at a time when you might actually need it to avoid a larger problem.
This is a good point.
Last year I was behind a lorry in the inside lane of the M1 and pulled out into the middle lane to affect a routine overtake. As I passed the rear of the lorry the front of it started to drift into the middle lane, driver nodding off possibly, thus threatening to block my passage. I could neither slow down nor return to the inside lane because I was already past the back of the lorry and I had another car up my arse in the middle lane. The outside lane was also a no-go because it was nose to tail with cars going a lot faster than me.
Death beckoned.
But no! What I did, and I had just a split second to make this decision, was I floored the accelerator and just squeaked through and past the lorry before the gap closed up. Phew.
So busting the speed limit is not only the right of any freeborn Engishman but in this case saved my life. If I had been driving a Brussels approved Ford Quisling car that couldn't do it I would be dead. The EU would have (quite literally) killed me.
So busting the speed limit is not only the right of any freeborn Engishman but in this case saved my life. If I had been driving a Brussels approved Ford Quisling car that couldn't do it I would be dead. The EU would have (quite literally) killed me.
If you floor the accelerator you car would still accelerate under the new regulations.
The intent is to stop dozy drivers exceeding the speed limit because they aren't paying attention, not to enforce a speed limit in all circumstances.
Indeed. Many on this thread seem to be labouring under a gigantic misapprehension, and running with it (but hey, PB). To be clear these regs simply mandate that cars have a warning system, they won't mechanically govern the vehicle down to 80mph out 70mph or whatever.
I don't own a car, but like to hire nice exec cars when I need them. The last couple I have rented already had a very similar system. I still broke the limit, on open roads, from time to time, but the warning was useful.
What's the big problem? Anyone would think the gammons are getting all hot and bothered for the fun of it.
No need to spoil an interesting post with a quasi-racial slur.
Only a semi-serious post but anyone who has worked in the Middle East will know the nightmare of speed warnings in cars. In the Emirates in the 80s and 90s they were a bell that started ringing when you exceeded the national speed limit.
And never stopped.
Ever.
Until you dropped below the limit again.
5 minutes of that bloody bell was enough to make anyone drive within the limit.
The day that Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party will be the day I resign my membership of that once great party. I am sure the great philandering fatso won't be quaking in his well tailored broguess at the prospect, but if he is at the head of it, the tradition of the Conservative Party being a serious business orientated party of aspiration will be over, and it will no longer be a place for those of moderate right of centre opinion.
I think it will be Gove or Hunt, therefore you should be able to stay.
But, remember, Jeremy's door is always open.
Gove has made too many enemies and is too associated with plotting and scheming.
Comments
Not sure who this Marx chap is
I’d stay it’s 2/3rds of a loaf, with a slightly worse 1/3 of a loaf but which makes economic sense
That’s politics. That’s compromise.
Not a Race apparently
RN "Whataboutery"
Not only do I and many of my neighbors fly the union flag, but so so many shops and businesses in the high street. Not to mention Government buildings.
"To be clear these regs simply mandate that cars have a warning system, they won't mechanically govern the vehicle down to 80mph out 70mph or whatever. "
The Regius Professor of Wrongness at Wrong College, Cambridge could not do better.
His song where he demanded we, “tear down the Union Jack”.
That one?
Well done.
Its a wrecking option.
What's worse, this is the kind of thing that could happen by stealth: On Exit Day +1, Britain has the same rules as it did on Exit Day -1, but every time the British decide to do something different, they increase the need for people accepting Irish imports (etc) to do extra checks on them. And what's worse, it makes the EU and the countries that need to protect their own rules the bad guys, because they have to insist growing this new internal EU border.
Given their objectives and their leverage, neither Ireland nor the EU would be sane to let the British do this to them.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/01/china-bans-23m-discredited-citizens-from-buying-travel-tickets-social-credit-system
What we need is a cunning, sneaky, smoozer, that is willing to tell different people different things and have them walk away believing them with joy in their hearts, while also been ruthless in their determination to get a good deal and not falling into obvious traps.
Can Tony Blair be cloned and reprogrammed to be less pro-EU, cos that would probably do the trick.
"cultural Marxism, where banning things is becoming de rigueur; where freedom of speech is becoming a taboo; where our universities, quintessential institutions of liberalism, are being shrouded in censorship and a culture of no-platforming".
Nothing whatsoever to do with the loony conspiracy theory which we're told exists in distant parts of internet chat sites. So not anti-semitic, and absolutely nothing to criticise her for.
Yes, for the sake of clarity, it might be better not to use the phrase because it has become debased, but that's a different point.
Unless you’ve been living in a cave you’ll have noticed that I’m not a supporter of the ERG and my posts have been urging support of the Deal for some time, so there’s nothing delusional about them.
Islamophobia is a foolish term because it conflates two things, one of which is abhorrent (bigotry against people for being Muslim) and one of which is essential (the right to question, satirise, or ridicule an idea).
Like I said the other day, there’s something about being given the first name, “Nigel”.
If we’re going to do Big Brother maybe we should make future christenings thereof tantamount to child abuse.
Now one third of the way to 17.4m
Rather than a quiet you should use the term "person of colour", but thanks for rising above party politics on this one, they just got loads of "your a racist" incoming.
Flying it in a nationalist area of Northern Ireland, or in a very immigrant mixed neighbourhood as a identifier together with slogans, football flags etc., might be an identifier, even if I still wouldn’t agree with the premise.
He also signs the Red Flag, whilst punching the air, so I tend to take his “progressive patriotism” with a bit of a pinch of salt.
If the left could start sending out weekly bulletins on which words and phrases we're no longer allowed to use, it would be much appreciated by those of us who don't want to spend time trawling horrible corners of the internet to find out.
Is there a reason for this?
Karen Bradley has clearly been advising the ERG on Irish politics - if they really understood the DUP they would never have contracted out the decision on the deal to them.
NEVER NEVER NEVER
We had a question from a party member about Islamophobia in the party at our AGM. Our (Muslim) MP gave a very full and heartfelt answer. She has been very involved with supporting other MPs from all parties who have been on the receiving end of hateful bile and sometimes worse (she was a very good friend of Jo Cox), so she's well informed on the subject.
The truth of the matter is that there is Islamophobia in the Conservative Party, as I have agreed on previous occasions. I have also said that I think Baroness Warsi has a point that it is not always addressed as vigorously as it should be. However, the truth of the matter is also that there is Islamophobia in other parties and institutions; it's quite a widespread problem. I'm quite certain you'd find some if you looked at Labour supporters, activists and councillors in, for example, Northern predominantly white working-class constituencies.
None of this alters the fact that Labour has a major, institutional issue with anti-semitism, coming from the top, which is of a quite different scale to the issues of Islamophobia in the Conservative, Labour or any other major party. Jewish MPs have been hounded out, really vicious anti-semites appointed to senior position in the party, and your leader seems to support extreme anti-semites. The Equalities and Human Rights has launched an investigation.
Your level of denial is staggering,
Bit desperate.
agreed to resign
Come and join us, comrade!
According to the one in office but not in power
That you only belatedly realised that the deal was the only non-absurd, delusional, moronic plan out there is not something to trumpet, frankly.
Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
And re-reading our exchange, comprehension ability.
ie if Google were in charge of government IT, it's a fair bet it would be far better joined up for better and/or for worse. My impression is this isn't because of a lack of relevant skill.. but because with few honourable exceptions*, silo government is still alive and well.
Maybe we should be grateful there's a lack of left hand/right hand co-ordination, on balance!
(*Like being able to use your passport pic for your driving licence etc)