No Deal will kill the Tories. Whoever takes the grumpy-right-populist spot that UKIP used to fill will clean up.
The problem isn't just the blame for letting No Deal happen, which will *mostly* attach to them. It's also for all the specific things that will go wrong that could theoretically have been planned for. There's no way for a government to do something like this, even with good planning and excellent people, and come out of it looking competent. And this government doesn't have good planning and excellent people, to put it mildly.
One thing will unite the nation, from left to right, brexit to remain: The government bollocksed up the implementation.
No Deal will not kill the Tories though, the majority of Tory voters and Leavers back No Deal over Remain. Indeed No Deal will likely kill UKIP beyond a few anti Islam Tommy Robinson types as they have no purpose as they have achieved everything they wanted, it is revoke which could kill the Tories as then UKIP or Farage's new Brexit Party really would clean up, unless the Tories replaced May with a hardline Leaver like Boris, Raab or McVey or Patel
A large proportion of those supporting no-deal think it will be relatively painless, and that the warnings of that are a politically created mirage. If we crash out, the inaccuracy of that will fairly quickly become obvious, and both the Tories and the exceptionalist nationalism the'y're now identified with will take decades to recover.
I think many on here are happy for party politics to take precedence. Perhaps you're thinking too deeply.
From the outside, it's much simpler. The PM, a Remainer thrust into the role of negotiating Brexit, comes back with a deal from the EU. It's not great, but all there is on offer. The MPs who had no intention of honouring their promises, have been voting against everything to stop progress.
The PM, in a valedictory speech, tells the truth, and the MPs react like the spoilt, lying children they are. She may be incompetent (she is), not the brightest (but not in Jezza's class as dumb), but she's straightforward and honest for once.
Like slugs sprinkled with salt, the MPs thrash around, spitting defiance. At the end, she has exposed their failings and they don't like it. Schadenfreude with a vengeance.
Yes. But.
As PM she can't just say oh fuck it. It's why politicians since the beginning of time have not been drawn out by eg John Humphreys.
It is her job to keep working no matter how bleak things may look or how much she yearns to tell it like it is.
The idea that MPs are the ones who don't know what they want astounds me. At every turn this government has attempted to frustrate "the will of the people" (how I hate that phrase) ie their elected representatives. At every point the government, who do not have a majority and lost their majority partly on this stance on Brexit, has acted like toughies and demagogues, refusing to actually work with anyone on a deal that had even a whiff of compromise. Yes, Corbyn is a complete dork for walking out of a meeting that included Umana, but at least Corbyn's proposal for how to leave the EU could probably pass the house on a freeish vote and the EU. The same is not true of May's deal. She has failed to convince people of this deal in her rhetoric (she managed to get the EU to keep us in the SM without FoM, that should be Leaver Nirvana!) and in her politicking. She is useless, and only allowed to keep going because everyone else is even more useless. If we stay in the EU, I can see Tommy Robinson MEP in our future, and I don't really see us coming back from that. Once the likes of he have that sort of platform, we'll start going down the route of Poland, Hungary and Brazil.
MP's know what they don't want, not what they do want.
I think most MPs would be more than happy to vote for a soft Brexit; something similar to what the Swiss have. They'd happily vote for a CU. I think most MPs want to confirm the spirit of the referendum; a close leave victory that was won on the basis of arguments along the lines of "a deal will be easy", "we don't have to leave the SM or CU", "we could just join the EEA" etc. Those ideas were never considered by this government.
Any option requires the passing of the WA, which MP's think is terrible.
But the WA is failing because this government has only moved closer and closer to those views and politicians who advocate the hardest of Brexits. The WA could have got through, basically as is, if MPs were certain it would lead to a softer Brexit. Also, as I and others have mentioned, if the main argument behind the WA had been "The EU told us we couldn't cherry pick, but this WA gives us the best cherries, no freedom of movement but still the free market" she could have won that battle. Instead she came out and immediately allowed it to be rubbished and did nothing to sell the thing. She demanded they pass it because she had got it, not because it was any good. And as an agreement, it is fine. It is just the government is so incompetent nobody trusts them to do what is required in the next phase.
Look at the kind of jobs offered in Britain, and the levels of income and security they offer. That will help explain why indicators such as child poverty can be so high, with such apparent high employment compared to several Continental countries.
UK and EU child poverty are not that dissimilar - UK 27.7 (same as in 2009) and EU 24.9. (at risk of poverty <18). Some big countries are worse (Italy 32.1, Spain 31.3) others better France (22.3).
So the petition has reached 500,000 so will need to be debated in Parliament. I wonder if that will be today, tomorrow or Monday as Bercow could prioritise it above everything else.
And that gives everyone a way out - put revoke to a vote and see who actually votes against.
Isn't there a validation process that needs to be carried out to make sure they are real people ?
With 500,000 people the odds of 100,000 not being real is minimal especially given it's going to be 1million by close of play today.
It's amusing to see the reaction these petitions get. A year or so back, leavers were in a froth over such a petition and giving breathless updates every hour or so, whilst remainers were downplaying it. Now the situation is reversed.
The idea that MPs are the ones who don't know what they want astounds me. At every turn this government has attempted to frustrate "the will of the people" (how I hate that phrase) ie their elected representatives. At every point the government, who do not have a majority and lost their majority partly on this stance on Brexit, has acted like toughies and demagogues, refusing to actually work with anyone on a deal that had even a whiff of compromise. Yes, Corbyn is a complete dork for walking out of a meeting that included Umana, but at least Corbyn's proposal for how to leave the EU could probably pass the house on a freeish vote and the EU. The same is not true of May's deal. She has failed to convince people of this deal in her rhetoric (she managed to get the EU to keep us in the SM without FoM, that should be Leaver Nirvana!) and in her politicking. She is useless, and only allowed to keep going because everyone else is even more useless. If we stay in the EU, I can see Tommy Robinson MEP in our future, and I don't really see us coming back from that. Once the likes of he have that sort of platform, we'll start going down the route of Poland, Hungary and Brazil.
MP's know what they don't want, not what they do want.
I think most MPs would be more than happy to vote for a soft Brexit; something similar to what the Swiss have. They'd happily vote for a CU. I think most MPs want to confirm the spirit of the referendum; a close leave victory that was won on the basis of arguments along the lines of "a deal will be easy", "we don't have to leave the SM or CU", "we could just join the EEA" etc. Those ideas were never considered by this government.
Any option requires the passing of the WA, which MP's think is terrible.
I would still be surprised if more than half have read it, let alone understand it.
So the petition has reached 500,000 so will need to be debated in Parliament. I wonder if that will be today, tomorrow or Monday as Bercow could prioritise it above everything else.
And that gives everyone a way out - put revoke to a vote and see who actually votes against.
Isn't there a validation process that needs to be carried out to make sure they are real people ?
With 500,000 people the odds of 100,000 not being real is minimal especially given it's going to be 1million by close of play today.
It's amusing to see the reaction these petitions get. A year or so back, leavers were in a froth over such a petition and giving breathless updates every hour or so, whilst remainers were downplaying it. Now the situation is reversed.
You assume I'm a remainer - I'm more restart this project with an actual plan with an agreed end point in mind.
No Deal will kill the Tories. Whoever takes the grumpy-right-populist spot that UKIP used to fill will clean up.
The problem isn't just the blame for letting No Deal happen, which will *mostly* attach to them. It's also for all the specific things that will go wrong that could theoretically have been planned for. There's no way for a government to do something like this, even with good planning and excellent people, and come out of it looking competent. And this government doesn't have good planning and excellent people, to put it mildly.
One thing will unite the nation, from left to right, brexit to remain: The government bollocksed up the implementation.
No Deal will not kill the Tories though, the majority of Tory voters and Leavers back No Deal over Remain. Indeed No Deal will likely kill UKIP beyond a few anti Islam Tommy Robinson types as they have no purpose as they have achieved everything they wanted, it is revoke which could kill the Tories as then UKIP or Farage's new Brexit Party really would clean up, unless the Tories replaced May with a hardline Leaver like Boris, Raab or McVey or Patel
A large proportion of those supporting no-deal think it will be relatively painless, and that the warnings of that are a politically created mirage. If we crash out, the inaccuracy of that will be become obvious fairly quickly, and both the Tories and the exceptionalist nationalism the'y're now identified with will take decades to recover.
Much turns on whether No Deal would be as Robert Smithson expects, or if indeed, it's like Mad Max.
So who is going to resign today? Rudd is the most likely but what about the likes of Hammond? Do they hang on to see if May's reckless gamble works or abandon ship now?...
I'm slightly surprised there weren't cabinet resignations yesterday, given that May's latest move requesting the extension from the EU was taken without even the pretence of cabinet agreement.
It depends whether one's leadership ambitions are enhanced by staying or resigning.
Oh you cynic. Their perception of what is in the national interest, surely?
So the petition has reached 500,000 so will need to be debated in Parliament. I wonder if that will be today, tomorrow or Monday as Bercow could prioritise it above everything else.
And that gives everyone a way out - put revoke to a vote and see who actually votes against.
Isn't there a validation process that needs to be carried out to make sure they are real people ?
With 500,000 people the odds of 100,000 not being real is minimal especially given it's going to be 1million by close of play today.
At the current rate of signups it’ll be 1m by lunchtime.
Yes, at 2k per minute it should get there around noon.
"The trouble was at the same time she actively antagonised the people she needs to support her."
That's the issue and there's truth in that. But what you forget is the MPs have shown they'll never support her unless she supports their particular brand of deal - a recipe for the chaos that has ensued.
So, like a fair but firm teacher, she's told the class of squabbling infants what is going to happen, and she's stuck to it. They need boundaries, in old-fashioned parlance, they'd become giddy with power.
I'll admit I've been surprised by the supportive reaction.
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
I think many on here are happy for party politics to take precedence. Perhaps you're thinking too deeply.
From the outside, it's much simpler. The PM, a Remainer thrust into the role of negotiating Brexit, comes back with a deal from the EU. It's not great, but all there is on offer. The MPs who had no intention of honouring their promises, have been voting against everything to stop progress.
The PM, in a valedictory speech, tells the truth, and the MPs react like the spoilt, lying children they are. She may be incompetent (she is), not the brightest (but not in Jezza's class as dumb), but she's straightforward and honest for once.
Like slugs sprinkled with salt, the MPs thrash around, spitting defiance. At the end, she has exposed their failings and they don't like it. Schadenfreude with a vengeance.
Yes. But.
As PM she can't just say oh fuck it. It's why politicians since the beginning of time have not been drawn out by eg John Humphreys.
It is her job to keep working no matter how bleak things may look or how much she yearns to tell it like it is.
I think many on here are happy for party politics to take precedence. Perhaps you're thinking too deeply.
From the outside, it's much simpler. The PM, a Remainer thrust into the role of negotiating Brexit, comes back with a deal from the EU. It's not great, but all there is on offer. The MPs who had no intention of honouring their promises, have been voting against everything to stop progress.
The PM, in a valedictory speech, tells the truth, and the MPs react like the spoilt, lying children they are. She may be incompetent (she is), not the brightest (but not in Jezza's class as dumb), but she's straightforward and honest for once.
Like slugs sprinkled with salt, the MPs thrash around, spitting defiance. At the end, she has exposed their failings and they don't like it. Schadenfreude with a vengeance.
With due respect, while the criticism of Parliament has some merit, your apologia for May and her deal is utter nonsense.
What it misses out is that May decided on her own red lines - notably freedom of movement - without consultation or any attempt to build consensus. The deal she came up with is the consequence of those red lines.
That she then very deliberately left it until the last moment to put before Parliament, using No Deal as blackmail in an attempt to force it through, is a mark of her arrogant control freakery, not anything to do with honesty. And her speech last night was completely lacking in the latter quality.
We are heading for no deal and leaving the EU next Friday and I cannot see any way out of it. Sadly.
Would help if that gormless excuse for our leader was less of a twunt. He'll not only talk to Hamas, Hezbollah, the IRA and claim that you have to talk to people you don't like, then flounces out of a meeting because Umunna is there. A liar, an idiot and a coward of a man is "Super" Jeremy
We are heading for no deal and leaving the EU next Friday and I cannot see any way out of it. Sadly.
Would help if that gormless excuse for our leader was less of a twunt. He'll not only talk to Hamas, Hezbollah, the IRA and claim that you have to talk to people you don't like, then flounces out of a meeting because Umunna is there. A liar, an idiot and a coward of a man is "Super" Jeremy
How have people not resigned yet? They leak daily that they do not agree with May and think she's doing a terrible or even crazy job, sometimes even cabinet members are quoted like that. What do they think they are achieving by not quitting?
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
The idea that MPs are the ones who don't know what they want astounds me. At every turn this government has attempted to frustrate "the will of the people" (how I hate that phrase) ie their elected representatives. At every point the government, who do not have a majority and lost their majority partly on this stance on Brexit, has acted like toughies and demagogues, refusing to actually work with anyone on a deal that had even a whiff of compromise. Yes, Corbyn is a complete dork for walking out of a meeting that included Umana, but at least Corbyn's proposal for how to leave the EU could probably pass the house on a freeish vote and the EU. The same is not true of May's deal. She has failed to convince people of this deal in her rhetoric (she managed to get the EU to keep us in the SM without FoM, that should be Leaver Nirvana!) and in her politicking. She is useless, and only allowed to keep going because everyone else is even more useless. If we stay in the EU, I can see Tommy Robinson MEP in our future, and I don't really see us coming back from that. Once the likes of he have that sort of platform, we'll start going down the route of Poland, Hungary and Brazil.
MP's know what they don't want, not what they do want.
I think most MPs would be more than happy to vote for a soft Brexit; something similar to what the Swiss have. They'd happily vote for a CU. I think most MPs want to confirm the spirit of the referendum; a close leave victory that was won on the basis of arguments along the lines of "a deal will be easy", "we don't have to leave the SM or CU", "we could just join the EEA" etc. Those ideas were never considered by this government.
Any option requires the passing of the WA, which MP's think is terrible.
I would still be surprised if more than half have read it, let alone understand it.
You don't need to read something to form an opinion on it, if you're an MP.
Look at the kind of jobs offered in Britain, and the levels of income and security they offer. That will help explain why indicators such as child poverty can be so high, with such apparent high employment compared to several Continental countries.
UK and EU child poverty are not that dissimilar - UK 27.7 (same as in 2009) and EU 24.9. (at risk of poverty
Yes ; and it's the most similar north european country comparisons that are most instructive. Unemployment is between slightly to significantly higher in nearly all north european neighbours, and child poverty figures nearly always lower.
LOL. When I was at school my art teacher used to take my paintings and bend them. If they cracked I got 49%, if they didn't I got 51%. And even I could probably make something that looked a little more like Ronaldo than that.
No DeaTl will kill the Tories. Whoever takes the grumpy-right-populist spot that UKIP used to fill will clean up.
The problem isn't just the blame for letting No Deal happen, which will *mostly* attach to them. It's also for all the specific things that will go wrong that could theoretically have been planned for. There's no way for a government to do something like this, even with good planning and excellent people, and come out of it looking competent. And this government doesn't have good planning and excellent people, to put it mildly.
One thing will unite the nation, from left to right, brexit to remain: The government bollocksed up the implementation.
No Deal will not kill the Tories though, the majority of Tory voters and Leavers back No Deal over Remain. Indeed No Deal will likely kill UKIP beyond a few anti Islam Tommy Robinson types as they have no purpose as they have achieved everything they wanted, it is revoke which could kill the Tories as then UKIP or Farage's new Brexit Party really would clean up, unless the Tories replaced May with a hardline Leaver like Boris, Raab or McVey or Patel
This is my point though. Tory voters back No Deal. JRM backs No Deal. Boris backs No Deal. Farage backs No Deal. The populist press back No Deal. They all think it's going to be fine.
So what happens when a million different things go wrong? It doesn't matter who's responsible for No Deal happening. No Deal happening was a good idea! If it's a great idea, yet all kinds of things are going wrong, it's clearly the fault of THE MOST INCOMPETENT GOVERNMENT IN HISTORY that couldn't even handle a wonderful No Deal Brexit without bollocksing everything up.
And that's even if the planning and execution is actually highly competent, which is an optimistic take.
I think many on here are happy for party politics to take precedence. Perhaps you're thinking too deeply.
From the outside, it's much simpler. The PM, a Remainer thrust into the role of negotiating Brexit, comes back with a deal from the EU. It's not great, but all there is on offer. The MPs who had no intention of honouring their promises, have been voting against everything to stop progress.
The PM, in a valedictory speech, tells the truth, and the MPs react like the spoilt, lying children they are. She may be incompetent (she is), not the brightest (but not in Jezza's class as dumb), but she's straightforward and honest for once.
Like slugs sprinkled with salt, the MPs thrash around, spitting defiance. At the end, she has exposed their failings and they don't like it. Schadenfreude with a vengeance.
How have people not resigned yet? They leak daily that they do not agree with May and think she's doing a terrible or even crazy job, sometimes even cabinet members are quoted like that. What do they think they are achieving by not quitting?
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Yes, I think the only option is to unilaterally revoke until we figure out what the hell is going on.
I've left a lot out, because I'm simplifying, and sometimes, that's the best way to see it from the view of those who don't follow politics closely. That is the reaction I've seen from quite a few. I may be in a Northern echo chamber, but it's still surprising.
I've called her an incompetent politician but she may have made a fool of me too.
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
Unless it's sorted tomorrow we crash out next week (as we discover unexpected stumbling blocks)..
I think many on here are happy for party politics to take precedence. Perhaps you're thinking too deeply.
From the outside, it's much simpler. The PM, a Remainer thrust into the role of negotiating Brexit, comes back with a deal from the EU. It's not great, but all there is on offer. The MPs who had no intention of honouring their promises, have been voting against everything to stop progress.
The PM, in a valedictory speech, tells the truth, and the MPs react like the spoilt, lying children they are. She may be incompetent (she is), not the brightest (but not in Jezza's class as dumb), but she's straightforward and honest for once.
Like slugs sprinkled with salt, the MPs thrash around, spitting defiance. At the end, she has exposed their failings and they don't like it. Schadenfreude with a vengeance.
+1
Don’t see how May positioning herself as a latter day Charles I helps matters. Why insult the people you need to vote for you?
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
I've never wanted a no-deal. but this is getting beyond serious now.
No Deal will kill the Tories. Whoever takes the grumpy-right-populist spot that UKIP used to fill will clean up.
The problem isn't just the blame for letting No Deal happen, which will *mostly* attach to them. It's also for all the specific things that will go wrong that could theoretically have been planned for. There's no way for a government to do something like this, even with good planning and excellent people, and come out of it looking competent. And this government doesn't have good planning and excellent people, to put it mildly.
One thing will unite the nation, from left to right, brexit to remain: The government bollocksed up the implementation.
No Deal will not kill the Tories though, the majority of Tory voters and Leavers back No Deal over Remain. Indeed No Deal will likely kill UKIP beyond a few anti Islam Tommy Robinson types as they have no purpose as they have achieved everything they wanted, it is revoke which could kill the Tories as then UKIP or Farage's new Brexit Party really would clean up, unless the Tories replaced May with a hardline Leaver like Boris, Raab or McVey or Patel
A large proportion of those supporting no-deal think it will be relatively painless, and that the warnings of that are a politically created mirage. If we crash out, the inaccuracy of that will fairly quickly become obvious, and both the Tories and the exceptionalist nationalism the'y're now identified with will take decades to recover.
The majority of Leavers and the majority of Tories who back No Deal are as ideological and fanatical about it as Nats are about an independent Scotland, nothing will change their mind, that still gives the Tories a lot of votes even if most of the country now prefers Remain or soft Brexit.
It is revoke which would see much of the Tory Leave vote defect en masse to Farage's new Brexit Party and UKIP unless the Tories got a hardline Leaver as leader quickly
She's clearly using that as an excuse. If she thinks no deal is bad and that the deal is the only path away from it then she would be angry but that would not prevent her from agreeing the deal.
May's words clearly upset mps and hardened them to vote against but thats a really stupid reason to harden against it. Its so stupid I cannot believe it to be sincere even. She was never going to vote for it but wanted to pretend she thought about it. Harsh? If she regards harsh words from the PM as relevant to the matter at hand I dont think so.
But the question is when will parliament act? The deal is even further from being supported than last week, so may wont move it.
So the petition has reached 500,000 so will need to be debated in Parliament. I wonder if that will be today, tomorrow or Monday as Bercow could prioritise it above everything else.
And that gives everyone a way out - put revoke to a vote and see who actually votes against.
Isn't there a validation process that needs to be carried out to make sure they are real people ?
With 500,000 people the odds of 100,000 not being real is minimal especially given it's going to be 1million by close of play today.
I disagree, the sign up speed esp, over night was unusually fast. It was indicative of people outside the UK or automated sign ups. 200,000 between midnight and 08:00am isn't normal ?
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
I've never wanted a no-deal. but this is getting beyond serious now.
It was serious in December when May ran away from the first MV and chose brinkmanship over change..
How have people not resigned yet? They leak daily that they do not agree with May and think she's doing a terrible or even crazy job, sometimes even cabinet members are quoted like that. What do they think they are achieving by not quitting?
Keeping her from doing even worse things.
But how could it be worse? Unless they are all no deal backers May's actions are supposedly anathema to many of them.
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
Unless it's sorted tomorrow we crash out next week (as we discover unexpected stumbling blocks)..
I think that's right. Is there not some Statutory Instrument that has to be laid on Monday if there is to be an extension? Time's up folks.
She's clearly using that as an excuse. If she thinks no deal is bad and that the deal is the only path away from it then she would be angry but that would not prevent her from agreeing the deal.
May's words clearly upset mps and hardened them to vote against but thats a really stupid reason to harden against it. Its so stupid I cannot believe it to be sincere even. She was never going to vote for it but wanted to pretend she thought about it. Harsh? If she regards harsh words from the PM as relevant to the matter at hand I dont think so.
But the question is when will parliament act? The deal is even further from being supported than last week, so may wont move it.
Indeed, it was a bit like one of the ERG headcases saying that they might vote for the deal if May stood down. How did that change the basis of the deal for Britain. Childish. We have the politicians that 52% deserve.
She's clearly using that as an excuse. If she thinks no deal is bad and that the deal is the only path away from it then she would be angry but that would not prevent her from agreeing the deal.
May's words clearly upset mps and hardened them to vote against but thats a really stupid reason to harden against it. Its so stupid I cannot believe it to be sincere even. She was never going to vote for it but wanted to pretend she thought about it. Harsh? If she regards harsh words from the PM as relevant to the matter at hand I dont think so.
But the question is when will parliament act? The deal is even further from being supported than last week, so may wont move it.
How have people not resigned yet? They leak daily that they do not agree with May and think she's doing a terrible or even crazy job, sometimes even cabinet members are quoted like that. What do they think they are achieving by not quitting?
Keeping her from doing even worse things.
Since Cabinet responsibility seems to have broken down completely there's hardly any point in resigning. It would just be a gesture, and not much noticed in the current climate.
If May were suddenly to resign - unlikely but not impossible - we would suddenly need a proper Cabinet. So present Ministers probably ought to stay for the moment.
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
I've never wanted a no-deal. but this is getting beyond serious now.
It really is.
I cannot see anything but an EU emergency summit next Thursday confirming no deal exit and a transition period to ease the pain, maybe one or two years
I think many on here are happy for party politics to take precedence. Perhaps you're thinking too deeply.
From the outside, it's much simpler. The PM, a Remainer thrust into the role of negotiating Brexit, comes back with a deal from the EU. It's not great, but all there is on offer. The MPs who had no intention of honouring their promises, have been voting against everything to stop progress.
The PM, in a valedictory speech, tells the truth, and the MPs react like the spoilt, lying children they are. She may be incompetent (she is), not the brightest (but not in Jezza's class as dumb), but she's straightforward and honest for once.
Like slugs sprinkled with salt, the MPs thrash around, spitting defiance. At the end, she has exposed their failings and they don't like it. Schadenfreude with a vengeance.
+1
Don’t see how May positioning herself as a latter day Charles I helps matters. Why insult the people you need to vote for you?
It hasn't helped, but that some mps are acting like they might have considered voting for the deal but not now is pathetic and irresponsible. If they dont want to do so there are much better reasons. And no, may being pathetic and irresponsible doesn't make them being so ok.
No DeaTl will kill the Tories. Whoever takes the grumpy-right-populist spot that UKIP used to fill will clean up.
The problem isn't just the blame for letting No Deal happen, which will *mostly* attach to them. It's also for all the specific things that will go wrong that could theoretically have been planned for. There's no way for a government to do something like this, even with good planning and excellent people, and come out of it looking competent. And this government doesn't have good planning and excellent people, to put it mildly.
One thing will unite the nation, from left to right, brexit to remain: The government bollocksed up the implementation.
No Deal will not kill the Tories though, the majority of Tory voters and Leavers back No Deal over Remain. Indeed No Deal will likely kill UKIP beyond a few anti Islam Tommy Robinson types as they have no purpose as they have achieved everything they wanted, it is revoke which could kill the Tories as then UKIP or Farage's new Brexit Party really would clean up, unless the Tories replaced May with a hardline Leaver like Boris, Raab or McVey or Patel
This is my point though. Tory voters back No Deal. JRM backs No Deal. Boris backs No Deal. Farage backs No Deal. The populist press back No Deal. They all think it's going to be fine.
So what happens when a million different things go wrong? It doesn't matter who's responsible for No Deal happening. No Deal happening was a good idea! If it's a great idea, yet all kinds of things are going wrong, it's clearly the fault of THE MOST INCOMPETENT GOVERNMENT IN HISTORY that couldn't even handle a wonderful No Deal Brexit without bollocksing everything up.
And that's even if the planning and execution is actually highly competent, which is an optimistic take.
No Dealers are fanatics, the right's version of Momentum or Cybernats, the vast majority of them are not going to change their mind however it turns out as they are ideologically committed to Brexit no matter what.
I think many on here are happy for party politics to take precedence. Perhaps you're thinking too deeply.
From the outside, it's much simpler. The PM, a Remainer thrust into the role of negotiating Brexit, comes back with a deal from the EU. It's not great, but all there is on offer. The MPs who had no intention of honouring their promises, have been voting against everything to stop progress.
The PM, in a valedictory speech, tells the truth, and the MPs react like the spoilt, lying children they are. She may be incompetent (she is), not the brightest (but not in Jezza's class as dumb), but she's straightforward and honest for once.
Like slugs sprinkled with salt, the MPs thrash around, spitting defiance. At the end, she has exposed their failings and they don't like it. Schadenfreude with a vengeance.
I don't like May or agree with her much, but she does seem to be one of the few people in Parliament actually trying to deliver on the referendum. May was a Remainer but she has clearly put her own views aside to do what she feels she is oblidged to do; if only the other MPs felt the same way we might make some progress. Instead we have extremist and obstructionist MPs throwing a whole tool chest of spanners into the works, and then turning around and complaining about the lack of progress.
So the petition has reached 500,000 so will need to be debated in Parliament. I wonder if that will be today, tomorrow or Monday as Bercow could prioritise it above everything else.
And that gives everyone a way out - put revoke to a vote and see who actually votes against.
Isn't there a validation process that needs to be carried out to make sure they are real people ?
There is a validation process.
You can be sure it isn't Russian bots. They don't want revoke!
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
I've never wanted a no-deal. but this is getting beyond serious now.
It was serious in December when May ran away from the first MV and chose brinkmanship over change..
Yes, that was seriously contemptuous, and all the alarm bells should have rung then.
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Yes, I think the only option is to unilaterally revoke until we figure out what the hell is going on.
So the petition has reached 500,000 so will need to be debated in Parliament. I wonder if that will be today, tomorrow or Monday as Bercow could prioritise it above everything else.
And that gives everyone a way out - put revoke to a vote and see who actually votes against.
Isn't there a validation process that needs to be carried out to make sure they are real people ?
With 500,000 people the odds of 100,000 not being real is minimal especially given it's going to be 1million by close of play today.
I disagree, the sign up speed esp, over night was unusually fast. It was indicative of people outside the UK or automated sign ups. 200,000 between midnight and 08:00am isn't normal ?
Yawn. Anything to discredit. I’ve been sent the link by 4 different people this morning, all not normally engaged by politics.
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
I've never wanted a no-deal. but this is getting beyond serious now.
Well that’s what was likely to happen the moment Leave won, then amplified by No Deal is better than a bad deal.
I think many on here are happy for party politics to take precedence. Perhaps you're thinking too deeply.
From the outside, it's much simpler. The PM, a Remainer thrust into the role of negotiating Brexit, comes back with a deal from the EU. It's not great, but all there is on offer. The MPs who had no intention of honouring their promises, have been voting against everything to stop progress.
The PM, in a valedictory speech, tells the truth, and the MPs react like the spoilt, lying children they are. She may be incompetent (she is), not the brightest (but not in Jezza's class as dumb), but she's straightforward and honest for once.
Like slugs sprinkled with salt, the MPs thrash around, spitting defiance. At the end, she has exposed their failings and they don't like it. Schadenfreude with a vengeance.
+1
Don’t see how May positioning herself as a latter day Charles I helps matters. Why insult the people you need to vote for you?
It hasn't helped, but that some mps are acting like they might have considered voting for the deal but not now is pathetic and irresponsible. If they dont want to do so there are much better reasons. And no, may being pathetic and irresponsible doesn't make them being so ok.
Lots of MP's have said they might vote for the WA, before finding reasons not to.
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
Unless it's sorted tomorrow we crash out next week (as we discover unexpected stumbling blocks)..
I think that's right. Is there not some Statutory Instrument that has to be laid on Monday if there is to be an extension? Time's up folks.
If the deal is rejected, I think the EU will offer a choice of long delay or no deal. There will be a Parliamentary majority for the former, but whetherr it can be achieved...?
So the petition has reached 500,000 so will need to be debated in Parliament. I wonder if that will be today, tomorrow or Monday as Bercow could prioritise it above everything else.
And that gives everyone a way out - put revoke to a vote and see who actually votes against.
Isn't there a validation process that needs to be carried out to make sure they are real people ?
There is a validation process.
You can be sure it isn't Russian bots. They don't want revoke!
Tbf I think they want chaos which several more years of rancorous can kicking would provide. On that basis the Russian bot operations seem several orders of magnitude more efficient than their poisoning defectors set up.
No Deal will kill the Tories. Whoever takes the grumpy-right-populist spot that UKIP used to fill will clean up.
The problem isn't just the blame for letting No Deal happen, which will *mostly* attach to them. It's also for all the specific things that will go wrong that could theoretically have been planned for. There's no way for a government to do something like this, even with good planning and excellent people, and come out of it looking competent. And this government doesn't have good planning and excellent people, to put it mildly.
One thing will unite the nation, from left to right, brexit to remain: The government bollocksed up the implementation.
No Deal will not kill the Tories though, the majority of Tory voters and Leavers back No Deal over Remain. Indeed No Deal will likely kill UKIP beyond a few anti Islam Tommy Robinson types as they have no purpose as they have achieved everything they wanted, it is revoke which could kill the Tories as then UKIP or Farage's new Brexit Party really would clean up, unless the Tories replaced May with a hardline Leaver like Boris, Raab or McVey or Patel
A large proportion of those supporting no-deal think it will be relatively painless, and that the warnings of that are a politically created mirage. If we crash out, the inaccuracy of that will fairly quickly become obvious, and both the Tories and the exceptionalist nationalism the'y're now identified with will take decades to recover.
The majority of Leavers and the majority of Tories who back No Deal are as ideological and fanatical about it as Nats are about an independent Scotland, nothing will change their mind, that still gives the Tories a lot of votes even if most of the country now prefers Remain or soft Brexit.
It is revoke which would see much of the Tory Leave vote defect en masse to Farage's new Brexit Party and UKIP unless the Tories got a hardline Leaver as leader quickly
You are right about Revoke, but the Party would recover in due course. I'm less sure about No Deal. If it turns out bad, the Party may never recover.
Of course if No Deal turns out just dandy, nobody has a problem.
I think many on here are happy for party politics to take precedence. Perhaps you're thinking too deeply.
From the outside, it's much simpler. The PM, a Remainer thrust into the role of negotiating Brexit, comes back with a deal from the EU. It's not great, but all there is on offer. The MPs who had no intention of honouring their promises, have been voting against everything to stop progress.
The PM, in a valedictory speech, tells the truth, and the MPs react like the spoilt, lying children they are. She may be incompetent (she is), not the brightest (but not in Jezza's class as dumb), but she's straightforward and honest for once.
Like slugs sprinkled with salt, the MPs thrash around, spitting defiance. At the end, she has exposed their failings and they don't like it. Schadenfreude with a vengeance.
+1
Don’t see how May positioning herself as a latter day Charles I helps matters. Why insult the people you need to vote for you?
It hasn't helped, but that some mps are acting like they might have considered voting for the deal but not now is pathetic and irresponsible. If they dont want to do so there are much better reasons. And no, may being pathetic and irresponsible doesn't make them being so ok.
Lots of MP's have said they might vote for the WA, before finding reasons not to.
Problem is that May never provided the political cover for people to vote for her deal. Asking a Labour MP to do that is a big deal, they need a non partisan atmosphere (so far as possible) and something specific to point at if they do that. May made things very partisan from day 1 and apart from a ew clumsy bribes offered no air cover to potential switchers. Now she has actively antagonised them.
The MV should have been a free vote and she should have taken some amendments on workers rights.
She's clearly using that as an excuse. If she thinks no deal is bad and that the deal is the only path away from it then she would be angry but that would not prevent her from agreeing the deal.
May's words clearly upset mps and hardened them to vote against but thats a really stupid reason to harden against it. Its so stupid I cannot believe it to be sincere even. She was never going to vote for it but wanted to pretend she thought about it. Harsh? If she regards harsh words from the PM as relevant to the matter at hand I dont think so.
But the question is when will parliament act? The deal is even further from being supported than last week, so may wont move it.
Indeed, it was a bit like one of the ERG headcases saying that they might vote for the deal if May stood down. How did that change the basis of the deal for Britain. Childish. We have the politicians that 52% deserve.
Well maybe he thought that he could swallow the WA if he was assured that May was not going to be let anywhere near the next and more important stage in the negotiations with the EU. Or maybe it was just childish spite, who knows?
What is clear beyond any doubt is that we really cannot have May dealing with our final deal with the EU. Her incapacity to build a consensus on anything has been disastrous and cannot be repeated.
So the petition has reached 500,000 so will need to be debated in Parliament. I wonder if that will be today, tomorrow or Monday as Bercow could prioritise it above everything else.
And that gives everyone a way out - put revoke to a vote and see who actually votes against.
Isn't there a validation process that needs to be carried out to make sure they are real people ?
There is a validation process.
You can be sure it isn't Russian bots. They don't want revoke!
Who knows what goes on in the mind of Vladimir? Revoke could be a good result for him, it might destroy the British Conservative Party and put Comrade Corbyn in power. Brexit is the gift that just keeps giving for the Kremlin, a win-win, whatever the result. He must be mightily pleased!
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
I've never wanted a no-deal. but this is getting beyond serious now.
It was serious in December when May ran away from the first MV and chose brinkmanship over change..
Yes, that was seriously contemptuous, and all the alarm bells should have rung then.
Every single Tory MP that voted they had confidence in her after that is to blame for May changing nothing since.
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
Unless it's sorted tomorrow we crash out next week (as we discover unexpected stumbling blocks)..
I think that's right. Is there not some Statutory Instrument that has to be laid on Monday if there is to be an extension? Time's up folks.
If the deal is rejected, I think the EU will offer a choice of long delay or no deal. There will be a Parliamentary majority for the former, but whetherr it can be achieved...?
Long deal depends on the UK Parliament laying legislation by 11th April. I cannot see so no long deal
Perhaps it’s all worked out. Next week she will call MV3, lose, resign, and advise the Queen to appoint Ken Clarke as PM.
Lidington please
I think only Clarke could get the cross party support necessary. And he foresaw it all. Voted against triggering article 50, and don’t forget “Theresa is a bloody difficult woman!”
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
I've never wanted a no-deal. but this is getting beyond serious now.
It really is.
I cannot see anything but an EU emergency summit next Thursday confirming no deal exit and a transition period to ease the pain, maybe one or two years
The EU have been warning us at regular intervals that if there's no deal there will be no transition period.
Do you think they are bluffing, or were you not aware of it?
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
Unless it's sorted tomorrow we crash out next week (as we discover unexpected stumbling blocks)..
I think that's right. Is there not some Statutory Instrument that has to be laid on Monday if there is to be an extension? Time's up folks.
If the deal is rejected, I think the EU will offer a choice of long delay or no deal. There will be a Parliamentary majority for the former, but whetherr it can be achieved...?
Long deal depends on the UK Parliament laying legislation by 11th April. I cannot see so no long deal
So you think it will be no deal now? You always said that was impossible.
I've left a lot out, because I'm simplifying, and sometimes, that's the best way to see it from the view of those who don't follow politics closely. That is the reaction I've seen from quite a few. I may be in a Northern echo chamber, but it's still surprising.
I've called her an incompetent politician but she may have made a fool of me too.
You've also left out the point that polling shows that her deal is less popular than either No Deal or Remain - so claiming to be speaking on behalf of 'the people' is balls.
If you put a gun to my head, I'd probably opt for her deal over no deal. But I'd want you sent to prison for putting a gun to my head.
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
I've never wanted a no-deal. but this is getting beyond serious now.
Well that’s what was likely to happen the moment Leave won, then amplified by No Deal is better than a bad deal.
If it happens May will go down as one of the most infamous PMs in history. Her deal will be seen as like Chamberlain's "piece of paper"
So who is going to resign today? Rudd is the most likely but what about the likes of Hammond? Do they hang on to see if May's reckless gamble works or abandon ship now?
May is in her charmless way looking to put together a majority of remainers and the few of her party that still pay any attention to the whip. She seems unconcerned that the majority of her own party may well vote against her. That leadership challenge by the ERG is looking one of the stupidest steps in an incredibly crowded and competitive field but we must now be in her final days, I am tempted to say hours.
Was it though?
If the ERG hadn’t shot early wouldn’t the Remainer wing be looking to no confidence her now that she has come out for No Deal?
But she’s secure so can drive through Brexit unless the HoC no confidences the government as a whole
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
I've never wanted a no-deal. but this is getting beyond serious now.
It really is.
I cannot see anything but an EU emergency summit next Thursday confirming no deal exit and a transition period to ease the pain, maybe one or two years
The transition period is part of the deal. With no deal the EU will put in place measures to protect itself, as we can too, to the extent feasible. Personally I would not expect no deal chaos to last for more than a few months, because the UK will be forced back to the table quite quickly. But the scary thing is that it's really impossible to have a clear view on how bad no deal will be. It might turn out to be relatively painless, or it could be really, really bad. Anyone who says they can predict it is fooling themselves. As a risk averse person who knows that many people are not well placed to weather the economic turmoil I would really prefer to avoid no deal. In the meantime we should follow the usual maxim of preparing for the worst and hoping for the best.
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
Unless it's sorted tomorrow we crash out next week (as we discover unexpected stumbling blocks)..
I think that's right. Is there not some Statutory Instrument that has to be laid on Monday if there is to be an extension? Time's up folks.
If the deal is rejected, I think the EU will offer a choice of long delay or no deal. There will be a Parliamentary majority for the former, but whetherr it can be achieved...?
Even if the EU offer it, how can anyone make Theresa May request it?
So the petition has reached 500,000 so will need to be debated in Parliament. I wonder if that will be today, tomorrow or Monday as Bercow could prioritise it above everything else.
And that gives everyone a way out - put revoke to a vote and see who actually votes against.
Isn't there a validation process that needs to be carried out to make sure they are real people ?
There is a validation process.
You can be sure it isn't Russian bots. They don't want revoke!
Tbf I think they want chaos which several more years of rancorous can kicking would provide. On that basis the Russian bot operations seem several orders of magnitude more efficient than their poisoning defectors set up.
We really don't need Russian assistance to have years of rancorous can-kicking and chaos. We are jolly good at that without any external factors required.
Will next Friday be known as "Black Friday"? or maybe it will be "Black Saturday"?
It will be as St Nigel's Day (after your namesake).
I think the ERG have almost won. Amazing, really, as there is a clear & overwhelming majority against No Deal.
And so, the blame really belongs to that majority who could have organised & collaborated but did not.
Of course May is a prickly character, as is Corby. But, it seems that (in both parties), there were plenty of MPs happy to blame each other, and score points off each other rather than work together. Even otherwise sensible MPs like Lisa Nandy have been blown off course (death of liberal democracy claim is the most ridiculous I have heard in some time).
Myself, I am sanguine, as I think we will end up in 5 years time in a loose association with the EU. Maybe it has to come through a hard Brexit and bounce back,rather than being achieved first bounce.
I think, once we have left, then we will not be returning.
We need to start moving to a long extention and a rethink of the entire process very very quickly. but no one seems to be offering leadership on how to get there.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Sadly enough of you Leavers aren’t worried about the long foretold tempest.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
Unless it's sorted tomorrow we crash out next week (as we discover unexpected stumbling blocks)..
I think that's right. Is there not some Statutory Instrument that has to be laid on Monday if there is to be an extension? Time's up folks.
If the deal is rejected, I think the EU will offer a choice of long delay or no deal. There will be a Parliamentary majority for the former, but whetherr it can be achieved...?
It is not obvious there is a pathway in the time available. Even if you assume the official collapse of this government I don't see how an alternative is put in place in time. The choices May has given are deal or no deal. The short extension is a diversion into a cul-de-sac.
No Deal will kill the Tories. Whoever takes the grumpy-right-populist spot that UKIP used to fill will clean up.
The problem isn't just the blame for letting No Deal happen, which will *mostly* attach to them. It's also for all the specific things that will go wrong that could theoretically have been planned for. There's no way for a government to do something like this, even with good planning and excellent people, and come out of it looking competent. And this government doesn't have good planning and excellent people, to put it mildly.
One thing will unite the nation, from left to right, brexit to remain: The government bollocksed up the implementation.
No Deal will not kill the Tories though, the majority of Tory voters and Leavers back No Deal over Remain. Indeed No Deal will likely kill UKIP beyond a few anti Islam Tommy Robinson types as they have no purpose as they have achieved everything they wanted, it is revoke which could kill the Tories as then UKIP or Farage's new Brexit Party really would clean up, unless the Tories replaced May with a hardline Leaver like Boris, Raab or McVey or Patel
They support the *idea* of No Deal. As Edmund says, even if they still think no deal was the best option, they will probably say "well the chaos was because May didn't plan and wanted to discredit Brexit" or some such.
Comments
As PM she can't just say oh fuck it. It's why politicians since the beginning of time have not been drawn out by eg John Humphreys.
It is her job to keep working no matter how bleak things may look or how much she yearns to tell it like it is.
http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/submitViewTableAction.do
That's the issue and there's truth in that. But what you forget is the MPs have shown they'll never support her unless she supports their particular brand of deal - a recipe for the chaos that has ensued.
So, like a fair but firm teacher, she's told the class of squabbling infants what is going to happen, and she's stuck to it. They need boundaries, in old-fashioned parlance, they'd become giddy with power.
I'll admit I've been surprised by the supportive reaction.
Last night must have been the last straw, we need to stop this crash, and stop it now. revoke/suspend whatever....
HELP!!!
Out of an infinite range of possibilities, May is the best PM, and her deal the best deal ...
We're so screwed.
https://twitter.com/bushrajm/status/1106299422638510085
As PM she can't just say oh fuck it. It's why politicians since the beginning of time have not been drawn out by eg John Humphreys.
It is her job to keep working no matter how bleak things may look or how much she yearns to tell it like it is.
What it misses out is that May decided on her own red lines - notably freedom of movement - without consultation or any attempt to build consensus. The deal she came up with is the consequence of those red lines.
That she then very deliberately left it until the last moment to put before Parliament, using No Deal as blackmail in an attempt to force it through, is a mark of her arrogant control freakery, not anything to do with honesty.
And her speech last night was completely lacking in the latter quality.
So we’ll crash out next week with No Deal as Dave warned.
So what happens when a million different things go wrong? It doesn't matter who's responsible for No Deal happening. No Deal happening was a good idea! If it's a great idea, yet all kinds of things are going wrong, it's clearly the fault of THE MOST INCOMPETENT GOVERNMENT IN HISTORY that couldn't even handle a wonderful No Deal Brexit without bollocksing everything up.
And that's even if the planning and execution is actually highly competent, which is an optimistic take.
I've left a lot out, because I'm simplifying, and sometimes, that's the best way to see it from the view of those who don't follow politics closely. That is the reaction I've seen from quite a few. I may be in a Northern echo chamber, but it's still surprising.
I've called her an incompetent politician but she may have made a fool of me too.
I suspect someone noticed it was a Rails website and put Chris Grayling in charge of it.
It is revoke which would see much of the Tory Leave vote defect en masse to Farage's new Brexit Party and UKIP unless the Tories got a hardline Leaver as leader quickly
May's words clearly upset mps and hardened them to vote against but thats a really stupid reason to harden against it. Its so stupid I cannot believe it to be sincere even. She was never going to vote for it but wanted to pretend she thought about it. Harsh? If she regards harsh words from the PM as relevant to the matter at hand I dont think so.
But the question is when will parliament act? The deal is even further from being supported than last week, so may wont move it.
Pretty straightforward. Almost the only way May is, really.
If May were suddenly to resign - unlikely but not impossible - we would suddenly need a proper Cabinet. So present Ministers probably ought to stay for the moment.
I cannot see anything but an EU emergency summit next Thursday confirming no deal exit and a transition period to ease the pain, maybe one or two years
The blame game is seldom productive, but she's leaving anyway, so it's payback time.
You can be sure it isn't Russian bots. They don't want revoke!
Of course if No Deal turns out just dandy, nobody has a problem.
The MV should have been a free vote and she should have taken some amendments on workers rights.
What is clear beyond any doubt is that we really cannot have May dealing with our final deal with the EU. Her incapacity to build a consensus on anything has been disastrous and cannot be repeated.
Do you think they are bluffing, or were you not aware of it?
If you put a gun to my head, I'd probably opt for her deal over no deal. But I'd want you sent to prison for putting a gun to my head.
If the ERG hadn’t shot early wouldn’t the Remainer wing be looking to no confidence her now that she has come out for No Deal?
But she’s secure so can drive through Brexit unless the HoC no confidences the government as a whole
But the scary thing is that it's really impossible to have a clear view on how bad no deal will be. It might turn out to be relatively painless, or it could be really, really bad. Anyone who says they can predict it is fooling themselves. As a risk averse person who knows that many people are not well placed to weather the economic turmoil I would really prefer to avoid no deal. In the meantime we should follow the usual maxim of preparing for the worst and hoping for the best.
And as stated earlier if this was a project you would be binning it and starting again which is what Revoke is...
I think the ERG have almost won. Amazing, really, as there is a clear & overwhelming majority against No Deal.
And so, the blame really belongs to that majority who could have organised & collaborated but did not.
Of course May is a prickly character, as is Corby. But, it seems that (in both parties), there were plenty of MPs happy to blame each other, and score points off each other rather than work together. Even otherwise sensible MPs like Lisa Nandy have been blown off course (death of liberal democracy claim is the most ridiculous I have heard in some time).
Myself, I am sanguine, as I think we will end up in 5 years time in a loose association with the EU. Maybe it has to come through a hard Brexit and bounce back,rather than being achieved first bounce.
I think, once we have left, then we will not be returning.
Cheers chap. I’ll try to pick up the pieces today.