No one should trust Gove further than they can throw him, but whether one thinks the contortions on Brexit are on too many, he at least is actually trying to ensure something called Brexit happens (yes, some say it is not really Brexit, whatever), rather than talk about how much he loves Brexit while voting it down all the time.
If Brexit doesn't happen, the ERG Remainers must take a lot of the blame.
Quite a significant intervention from Clarke I would have thought. Sure, Bercow is not being completely unreasonable if he rules that (although let's behonest he would decide anything if it was inconvenient for the government, and what if, for sake of argument, DUP and ERG said they would now back it, by his own logic on accepting amendments previously he would have to let the house decide what it will or will not accept), but it is more telling if someone like Clarke is essentially saying he gave Brexit a chance, twice in fact, and he will now in essence take other action as he feels appropriate.
Whilst I understand the point that the Speaker may prevent a further vote on a question already decided by the House, it makes me ask how it was possible to have a Second Vote yesterday on a matter overwhelmingly rejected in January. Did the addition of the agreed Protocol make it a substantively different vote? If so, I am sure something technical like that could again be found should it be needed.
It's hard two attempts to be approved and were the delta to continue will require at least 3 to infinite more votes before Parliament voted for it - so yes May's Deal is dead if Parliament has a say.
That (for Parliament) leaves 3 options - leave with No Deal, revoke or try to find another deal. All require an extension...
Whilst I understand the point that the Speaker may prevent a further vote on a question already decided by the House, it makes me ask how it was possible to have a Second Vote yesterday on a matter overwhelmingly rejected in January. Did the addition of the agreed Protocol make it a substantively different vote? If so, I am sure something technical like that could again be found should it be needed.
Fool me once - shame on you Fool me twice - shame on me
Can anyone think of a convenient description of people who are prepared to actively work against the settled policy of their own government through the means of foreign powers?
Some interesting twitter discussions about lobbying of some EU governments with the aim of ensuring a request to extend A50 is refused.
I wonder how long is needed to apply for and have additional time agreed. Do you just have to put in the request before 22.59 on 29th March or have it agreed by then?
The drop-dead date is the European Council meeting of the 21-22nd March. After that time you are fucked. Frankly we are fucked now, to be honest, but that's the question you asked.
Seems quite apt that on a day when Vanilla is crocked, PM is crocked and Brexit is getting crocked I emerge from long time lurking to tell everyone to cheer up and look on the bright side of life!
Whilst I understand the point that the Speaker may prevent a further vote on a question already decided by the House, it makes me ask how it was possible to have a Second Vote yesterday on a matter overwhelmingly rejected in January. Did the addition of the agreed Protocol make it a substantively different vote? If so, I am sure something technical like that could again be found should it be needed.
Given Bercow's own reasoning previously about letting the house decide, even with precedent that you should not consider the same exact matter he has no justification for not permitting it.
But I presume whatever the rules say ultimately the House is allowed to change its mind. And yes yes, the people can too, but it is a lot less expensive and procedurally difficult for the House to do it.
Seems quite apt that on a day when Vanilla is crocked, PM is crocked and Brexit is getting crocked I emerge from long time lurking to tell everyone to cheer up and look on the bright side of life!
There's a bright side? One day I hope to experience it.
Seems quite apt that on a day when Vanilla is crocked, PM is crocked and Brexit is getting crocked I emerge from long time lurking to tell everyone to cheer up and look on the bright side of life!
Remember that 'Even this will pass'. In a decade we will look back on all this as something that has been accommodated and managed and dealt with. Whilst in the midst of chaos it is always a good idea to gain some perspective. Our MPs certainly are failing epically at the moment - but they too will be gone in due course. Concentrating on the Cpl Fraser view of 'We're Doomed' is somewhat unhealthy - best to be a little sanguine - a rueful Wilsonesque smile is what we need. Cheerfulness in adversity is not a bad mantra - shame we are having so much practice!
For all those who followed the Sandpit tipping service and got on over 400 ayes at 1.61 this morning, it can now be laid off at 1.1 (or backed at 1.03 for anyone who wants to make a 3% return in an hour).
Whilst I understand the point that the Speaker may prevent a further vote on a question already decided by the House, it makes me ask how it was possible to have a Second Vote yesterday on a matter overwhelmingly rejected in January. Did the addition of the agreed Protocol make it a substantively different vote? If so, I am sure something technical like that could again be found should it be needed.
Fool me once - shame on you Fool me twice - shame on me
Bercow could argue he's been fooled once...
Given there was the additional protocol and dozens of MPs changed their votes its easy to say they were different votes.
If there is a new protocol and the DUP say they will back the deal it would be unreasonable to say that its the same vote. EU currently saying there will be no new protocol though.
Whether or not the Spelman amendment is moved or voted for, how much of a threat is keeping no deal on the table after the HOC speaks about how bad it would be for the country for several hours and then the existing government motion against no deal is voted for resoundingly by a huge majority, with supporters including the prime minister?
Surely that would only leave the "we intend to cut off our noses to spite our faces" defence left on the negotiating table.
I have much more respect for ardent Brexiters than Nicky Morgan . Clearly ditched any principles she had and is now fawning over the ERG in an effort to get a cabinet job after May goes.
Whilst I understand the point that the Speaker may prevent a further vote on a question already decided by the House, it makes me ask how it was possible to have a Second Vote yesterday on a matter overwhelmingly rejected in January. Did the addition of the agreed Protocol make it a substantively different vote? If so, I am sure something technical like that could again be found should it be needed.
Fool me once - shame on you Fool me twice - shame on me
Bercow could argue he's been fooled once...
Given there was the additional protocol and dozens of MPs changed their votes its easy to say they were different votes.
If there is a new protocol and the DUP say they will back the deal it would be unreasonable to say that its the same vote. EU currently saying there will be no new protocol though.
That wasn't the case when the schedule for yesterday was given for parliament - granted a new protocol was agreed at 23:00 on Monday but at the time it was initially scheduled it really was MV2 - no changes let's see how the mood has changed.
Some interesting twitter discussions about lobbying of some EU governments with the aim of ensuring a request to extend A50 is refused.
Can anyone think of a convenient description of people who are prepared to actively work against the settled policy of their own government through the means of foreign powers?
It's becoming increasingly difficult to be proud of being British. No-one likes being a laughing stock, surely.
Proud of Britain - ashamed of our 650 mps and the broadcast media
We have a Buggins turn electoral system that gives only 2 parties stand a chance of becoming a government and 80% of the MPs are in safe seats so are effectively chosen by handfuls of increasingly extreme and out of touch Labour and Tory members. We are now truly a laughing stock. How anyone has the nerve to look down their noses at the rest of Europe beats me.
Perhaps because we understand that many of the European systems are designed to keep the same individuals in their legislatures irrespective of how well or badly their parties do.
No one should trust Gove further than they can throw him, but whether one thinks the contortions on Brexit are on too many, he at least is actually trying to ensure something called Brexit happens (yes, some say it is not really Brexit, whatever), rather than talk about how much he loves Brexit while voting it down all the time.
If Brexit doesn't happen, the ERG Remainers must take a lot of the blame.
Well they've given us remainers cover for being much vocal about opposing Brexit than we could have been if the leave camp had been united and modest in its objectives. So I thank them warmly for that.
Just to be sure I've understood this - IF we vote to ask for an extension and is refused by the EU because it doesn't have unanimous support, we are left with MV3 or No Deal or unilateral revocation of A50.
I suspect May might quite like the EU refusing an extension - there will be no road to left for the can to be kicked down. MV3 in thirteen days - with 72 hours to go. Not too late to back the Deal, not too late to prevent chaos (so the argument will go in the Mail, Express and elsewhere).
May probably wouldn't revoke A50, but what's to stop a motion being tabled to that effect by a back-bencher? Would The House support that or not?
To technically stop leaving, don’t we have to repeal primary legislation? (Ie the withdrawal act)?
My reading of this bit is that legally, "a minister" (any volunteers?) just has to change "Exit Day" from March 29 2019 to June 28 2019, Dec 31 2020... or frankly October 7th 2248. I guess the 'regulation' may need voting through, and I guess there are significant political as well as legal questions.. but I'm not sure the Act needs repealing.. at least yet?? (IANAL etc etc)
(4) A Minister of the Crown may by regulations— (a) amend the definition of “exit day” in subsection (1) to ensure that the day and time specified in the definition are the day and time that the Treaties are to cease to apply to the United Kingdom, and (b) amend subsection (2) in consequence of any such amendment.
An extension of A50 would be via Statutory Instrument, following Agreement with the EU.
The more difficult question is what domestic legislation would be required if we were to revoke the A50 notification?
Some interesting twitter discussions about lobbying of some EU governments with the aim of ensuring a request to extend A50 is refused.
Well Rutte and Macron have already said it needs to be for a purpose. Orban & Salvini might be worth a call, I take it the Rt Hon for Shrewsbury is in touch with Poland...
Danny is a sharp cookie and well ahead of the curve.. this from last week when he and OPatz were out there:
It's becoming increasingly difficult to be proud of being British. No-one likes being a laughing stock, surely.
Proud of Britain - ashamed of our 650 mps and the broadcast media
We have a Buggins turn electoral system that gives only 2 parties stand a chance of becoming a government and 80% of the MPs are in safe seats so are effectively chosen by handfuls of increasingly extreme and out of touch Labour and Tory members. We are now truly a laughing stock. How anyone has the nerve to look down their noses at the rest of Europe beats me.
Perhaps because we understand that many of the European systems are designed to keep the same individuals in their legislatures irrespective of how well or badly their parties do.
A good description of our own flawed system if ever I saw one.
Whether or not the Spelman amendment is moved or voted for, how much of a threat is keeping no deal on the table after the HOC speaks about how bad it would be for the country for several hours and then the existing government motion against no deal is voted for resoundingly by a huge majority, with supporters including the prime minister?
Surely that would only leave the "we intend to cut off our noses to spite our faces" defence left on the negotiating table.
And Accidental No Deal... everyone jolly sure it would be a jolly bad thing; no bugger (or at least not a sufficiently large group of ‘em) doing a damn thing about it.
It's becoming increasingly difficult to be proud of being British. No-one likes being a laughing stock, surely.
Proud of Britain - ashamed of our 650 mps and the broadcast media
We have a Buggins turn electoral system that gives only 2 parties stand a chance of becoming a government and 80% of the MPs are in safe seats so are effectively chosen by handfuls of increasingly extreme and out of touch Labour and Tory members. We are now truly a laughing stock. How anyone has the nerve to look down their noses at the rest of Europe beats me.
Perhaps because we understand that many of the European systems are designed to keep the same individuals in their legislatures irrespective of how well or badly their parties do.
What an absolutely ridiclous comment. We’ve had more or less the same people (age withstanding) and the same parties in Parlimant for the last 100 years.
It's becoming increasingly difficult to be proud of being British. No-one likes being a laughing stock, surely.
Proud of Britain - ashamed of our 650 mps and the broadcast media
We have a Buggins turn electoral system that gives only 2 parties stand a chance of becoming a government and 80% of the MPs are in safe seats so are effectively chosen by handfuls of increasingly extreme and out of touch Labour and Tory members. We are now truly a laughing stock. How anyone has the nerve to look down their noses at the rest of Europe beats me.
Perhaps because we understand that many of the European systems are designed to keep the same individuals in their legislatures irrespective of how well or badly their parties do.
A good description of our own flawed system if ever I saw one.
It's becoming increasingly difficult to be proud of being British. No-one likes being a laughing stock, surely.
Proud of Britain - ashamed of our 650 mps and the broadcast media
We have a Buggins turn electoral system that gives only 2 parties stand a chance of becoming a government and 80% of the MPs are in safe seats so are effectively chosen by handfuls of increasingly extreme and out of touch Labour and Tory members. We are now truly a laughing stock. How anyone has the nerve to look down their noses at the rest of Europe beats me.
Perhaps because we understand that many of the European systems are designed to keep the same individuals in their legislatures irrespective of how well or badly their parties do.
What an absolutely ridiclous comment. We’ve had more or less the same people (age withstanding) and the same parties in Parlimant for the last 100 years.
If you are in a safe seat its a job for life!
Most systems generate the same liked people as MPs. A party list system would return the top 200 Labour MPs, FPTP results in the top 200 MPs being given completely safe seats....
I have much more respect for ardent Brexiters than Nicky Morgan . Clearly ditched any principles she had and is now fawning over the ERG in an effort to get a cabinet job after May goes.
Cabinet job? She wants to be the one handing them out.
This sounds catastrophic for Boeing. Class action lawsuits from hundreds of dead people, and lots of airlines? Ooof.
As the article states, this latest reported issue might be different: this occurs when the autopilot is switched on, the MCAS issue occurs when it is off. But yes, they will be taking a close look at that now.
The thing is, Boeing won't get killed over this, as it's in no-ones interest. The airlines need at least two manufacturers to create price and technological competition (many would prefer one or two more). A Boeing- or Airbus- only commercial aviation sector would quickly become moribiund. Why bother investing $10 billion in a new plane design if the airlines have to buy your old one?
Yep, I know. And there is a reason those planes are not very well known. As an example the Superjet 100 carries a third the passengers of an A350 with vastly less range, and the CRAIC is a paper aeroplane.
I was highlighting competitors of the 737, ~100 seats.
I have much more respect for ardent Brexiters than Nicky Morgan . Clearly ditched any principles she had and is now fawning over the ERG in an effort to get a cabinet job after May goes.
Cabinet job? She wants to be the one handing them out.
Nicky Morgan vs Jeremy Hunt in the final two for next leader would have a nice symmetry about it.
It's becoming increasingly difficult to be proud of being British. No-one likes being a laughing stock, surely.
Proud of Britain - ashamed of our 650 mps and the broadcast media
We have a Buggins turn electoral system that gives only 2 parties stand a chance of becoming a government and 80% of the MPs are in safe seats so are effectively chosen by handfuls of increasingly extreme and out of touch Labour and Tory members. We are now truly a laughing stock. How anyone has the nerve to look down their noses at the rest of Europe beats me.
Perhaps because we understand that many of the European systems are designed to keep the same individuals in their legislatures irrespective of how well or badly their parties do.
What an absolutely ridiclous comment. We’ve had more or less the same people (age withstanding) and the same parties in Parlimant for the last 100 years.
If you are in a safe seat its a job for life!
The same applies in spades to senior members of parties across Europe. In some cases even if they have lost their own seat they get to stay because they are on a party list.
Comments
That (for Parliament) leaves 3 options - leave with No Deal, revoke or try to find another deal. All require an extension...
Fool me twice - shame on me
Bercow could argue he's been fooled once...
But I presume whatever the rules say ultimately the House is allowed to change its mind. And yes yes, the people can too, but it is a lot less expensive and procedurally difficult for the House to do it.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/politics/event/28180290/market?marketId=1.156133942
If there is a new protocol and the DUP say they will back the deal it would be unreasonable to say that its the same vote. EU currently saying there will be no new protocol though.
Surely that would only leave the "we intend to cut off our noses to spite our faces" defence left on the negotiating table.
https://twitter.com/dkshrewsbury/status/1103538956187123712?s=21
STV is the answer.
If you are in a safe seat its a job for life!