Brexit may mean the UK "regains sovereignty" over immigration but that does not mean it is going to stop immigration. There are going to be some very unhappy people who voted for Brexit who will see immigrants from Europe replaced by those from the rest of the World, especially if the replacement immigrants follow different faiths and establish even more separatist diasporas.
Even in a No Deal Brexit due to demographic change the UK will require migrants to fill all manner of jobs. People retire, die or move to other better paying jobs all the time. It seems to me Brexit wrecks the economy and all the problems a divided society faces will just get worse as their is less money to address these problems.
If preventing immigration is important enough to enough people then they can elect a government that will reduce immigration.
One of the problems British politics has had for the past several years is that we have had a government that has made a public commitment to reduce net migration to < 100,000 - but the government have not taken the necessary steps to reduce immigration (or encourage emigration) to hit this target. All the while that net immigration from outside the EU was above 100,000 they hid behind the excuse of EU Freedom of Movement for not hitting their target.
If the UK does leave the EU (and the Single Market) then any government pledging to reduce immigration will no longer find it so easy to excuse its failures in this way. This will hopefully introduce some more honesty into the debate.
The only way the population is coming down is with massive investment in industrial capital to replace labour.
I suppose one anti-immigration argument is that if you restrict immigration then it encourages investment in industrial capital to improve the productivity of the restricted labour available. I've read that argument in the economics pages of the Guardian.
I am not sure why there is this obsession with Banks. Maybe there was dodgy financial goings on - in which case, report them to the proper authorities and let the legal process do what it needs to.
But the referendum is not going to get overturned. No matter what they try to dig up.
Yes, but if it was in any way subverted it strengthens the case for another vote. Also, IF there is any truth in the allegations then hopefully the little toe rag will end up in jail and perhaps he will take the other of utensils of Putin with him.
Nurse Nurse! Carole Cadwalladr has a login!
I assume you believe the findings of the FBI that Moscow wishes to subvert western democratic processes a conspiracy eh? Not convenient to your belief that good old Uncle Vladimir couldn't possibly want to interfere? Well I guess naivete is the by-word for most Leave supporters. How does it feel to help support the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power? How very patriotic of you!
Wow you are literally batshit mental. Your belief in conspiracy theories added to year distaste towards non EU immigration suggests you need to get out into the real world and talk to people. Not everything in life you disagree with is down to Putin, sometimes people just think differently to you. I really couldn't care less what Putin's views are on anything, like other Brits I'm capable of thinking for myself.
Do you think Russia interfered in the poll?
No, because I'm not bonkers and don't believe everything I read on twitter. If Russia was rigging polls they'd have put Corbyn in power. It worries me that both anti-semetic and Russia has ruined our democracy conspiracy theories are so commonplace on the fringes of our society.
Presumably you believe the ongoing investigations by the Electoral Commission, the Culture Select Committee, and relatedly, the US Senate, are a waste of time, then.
I am not sure why there is this obsession with Banks. Maybe there was dodgy financial goings on - in which case, report them to the proper authorities and let the legal process do what it needs to.
But the referendum is not going to get overturned. No matter what they try to dig up.
Yes, but if it was in any way subverted it strengthens the case for another vote. Also, IF there is any truth in the allegations then hopefully the little toe rag will end up in jail and perhaps he will take the other of utensils of Putin with him.
Nurse Nurse! Carole Cadwalladr has a login!
I assume you believe the findings of the FBI that Moscow wishes to subvert western democratic processes a conspiracy eh? Not convenient to your belief that good old Uncle Vladimir couldn't possibly want to interfere? Well I guess naivete is the by-word for most Leave supporters. How does it feel to help support the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power? How very patriotic of you!
Wow you are literally batshit mental. Your belief in conspiracy theories added to year distaste towards non EU immigration suggests you need to get out into the real world and talk to people. Not everything in life you disagree with is down to Putin, sometimes people just think differently to you. I really couldn't care less what Putin's views are on anything, like other Brits I'm capable of thinking for myself.
Do you think Russia interfered in the poll?
No, because I'm not bonkers and don't believe everything I read on twitter. If Russia was rigging polls they'd have put Corbyn in power. It worries me that both anti-semetic and Russia has ruined our democracy conspiracy theories are so commonplace on the fringes of our society.
Presumably you believe the ongoing investigations by the Electoral Commission, the Culture Select Committee, and relatedly, the US Senate, are a waste of time, then.
I am not sure why there is this obsession with Banks. Maybe there was dodgy financial goings on - in which case, report them to the proper authorities and let the legal process do what it needs to.
But the referendum is not going to get overturned. No matter what they try to dig up.
Yes, but if it was in any way subverted it strengthens the case for another vote. Also, IF there is any truth in the allegations then hopefully the little toe rag will end up in jail and perhaps he will take the other of utensils of Putin with him.
Nurse Nurse! Carole Cadwalladr has a login!
I assume you believe the findings of the FBI that Moscow wishes to subvert western democratic processes a conspiracy eh? Not convenient to your belief that good old Uncle Vladimir couldn't possibly want to interfere? Well I guess naivete is the by-word for most Leave supporters. How does it feel to help support the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power? How very patriotic of you!
Wow you are literally batshit mental. Your belief in conspiracy theories added to year distaste towards non EU immigration suggests you need to get out into the real world and talk to people. Not everything in life you disagree with is down to Putin, sometimes people just think differently to you. I really couldn't care less what Putin's views are on anything, like other Brits I'm capable of thinking for myself.
Do you think Russia interfered in the poll?
No, because I'm not bonkers and don't believe everything I read on twitter. If Russia was rigging polls they'd have put Corbyn in power. It worries me that both anti-semetic and Russia has ruined our democracy conspiracy theories are so commonplace on the fringes of our society.
Presumably you believe the ongoing investigations by the Electoral Commission, the Culture Select Committee, and relatedly, the US Senate, are a waste of time, then.
Hard to argue. Leadsom has excelled in recent months and Grayling has sunk. May really should get rid, though I guess she can't afford to lose any more allies.
I was speaking to someone the other day who reckoned Grayling is being kept around as the universal fall guy, and would probably get put in charge of implementing brexit if it happens...
Brexit may mean the UK "regains sovereignty" over immigration but that does not mean it is going to stop immigration. There are going to be some very unhappy people who voted for Brexit who will see immigrants from Europe replaced by those from the rest of the World, especially if the replacement immigrants follow different faiths and establish even more separatist diasporas.
Even in a No Deal Brexit due to demographic change the UK will require migrants to fill all manner of jobs. People retire, die or move to other better paying jobs all the time. It seems to me Brexit wrecks the economy and all the problems a divided society faces will just get worse as their is less money to address these problems.
If preventing immigration is important enough to enough people then they can elect a government that will reduce immigration.
One of the problems British politics has had for the past several years is that we have had a government that has made a public commitment to reduce net migration to < 100,000 - but the government have not taken the necessary steps to reduce immigration (or encourage emigration) to hit this target. All the while that net immigration from outside the EU was above 100,000 they hid behind the excuse of EU Freedom of Movement for not hitting their target.
If the UK does leave the EU (and the Single Market) then any government pledging to reduce immigration will no longer find it so easy to excuse its failures in this way. This will hopefully introduce some more honesty into the debate.
The only way the population is coming down is with massive investment in industrial capital to replace labour.
I suppose one anti-immigration argument is that if you restrict immigration then it encourages investment in industrial capital to improve the productivity of the restricted labour available. I've read that argument in the economics pages of the Guardian.
Looking at Trading Economics that doesn't seem to have been the case in low immigration Japan.
I have come across bullying in management by both men and women, and it is about power, not sexual politics. And the bullies always have subordinates, who have no been on the sharp end of it, who will defend them as just strong and effective leaders.
Astonishing that Hammond is behind only Grayling in the hated stakes. Yet the Tories are always telling us how fabulous the economy's doing (in spite of Brexit). What gives?
I am not sure why there is this obsession with Banks. Maybe there was dodgy financial goings on - in which case, report them to the proper authorities and let the legal process do what it needs to.
But the referendum is not going to get overturned. No matter what they try to dig up.
Yes, but if it was in any way subverted it strengthens the case for another vote. Also, IF there is any truth in the allegations then hopefully the little toe rag will end up in jail and perhaps he will take the other of utensils of Putin with him.
Nurse Nurse! Carole Cadwalladr has a login!
I assume you believe the findings of the FBI that Moscow wishes to subvert western democratic processes a conspiracy eh? Not convenient to your belief that good old Uncle Vladimir couldn't possibly want to interfere? Well I guess naivete is the by-word for most Leave supporters. How does it feel to help support the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power? How very patriotic of you!
Wow you are literally batshit mental. Your belief in conspiracy theories added to year distaste towards non EU immigration suggests you need to get out into the real world and talk to people. Not everything in life you disagree with is down to Putin, sometimes people just think differently to you. I really couldn't care less what Putin's views are on anything, like other Brits I'm capable of thinking for myself.
Do you think Russia interfered in the poll?
No, because I'm not bonkers and don't believe everything I read on twitter. If Russia was rigging polls they'd have put Corbyn in power. It worries me that both anti-semetic and Russia has ruined our democracy conspiracy theories are so commonplace on the fringes of our society.
Presumably you believe the ongoing investigations by the Electoral Commission, the Culture Select Committee, and relatedly, the US Senate, are a waste of time, then.
With the tiggers bringing forward the plan to become a full party as an apparant urgency having said 'end of the year' I'm predicting and anticipating sizable defections. I imagine Chuka has been told we'll come but only to a party that runs from now
Astonishing that Hammond is behind only Grayling in the hated stakes. Yet the Tories are always telling us how fabulous the economy's doing (in spite of Brexit). What gives?
Rank and file 'true' blue Tories... they don't like remainers in the main.
Astonishing that Hammond is behind only Grayling in the hated stakes. Yet the Tories are always telling us how fabulous the economy's doing (in spite of Brexit). What gives?
If you’re not a Hard Brexiter, the membership despise you. Ironic that Hammond was once a voice for Euroscepticism, but the shire jacobins demand purity above all.
The most amazing thing about this poll is how badly May rates. One would think she deserves a “leadership bonus” from the membership but apparently not.
Astonishing that Hammond is behind only Grayling in the hated stakes. Yet the Tories are always telling us how fabulous the economy's doing (in spite of Brexit). What gives?
Astonishing that Hammond is behind only Grayling in the hated stakes. Yet the Tories are always telling us how fabulous the economy's doing (in spite of Brexit). What gives?
He's a Remainer who has been condemned as not falling wholeheartedly behind the one true Brexit faith - see also low ratings for Rudd, Clark and Gauke for I would guess similar reasons.
How else do you explain a positive rating for Liam Fox?
Re my post on defections, if the remaining waivers in labour aren't going now Corbyns interfering has come out they won't go, they are happy with the racism
I wonder if one day we MIGHT see a Brexit Bad story where MIGHT doesn't do an almighty large amount of heavy lifting?
Honda closing? They were not going to say it is because the UK has chosen this path because they still want to sell cars in the future.
The reason why "might" is still used is because we have not left the EU yet. Once all these jobs and industries have closed for good in a hard Brexit it will be a bit late to start thinking they were not joking.
But then why out of Turkey, too? Suspect the EU FTA has more to do with it. No longer need plants in the customs union.
Correct. We can expect most Japanese and Korean manufacturing to leave the UK anyway. International shipping is so cheap that it makes no financial sense to stay.
To be fair, Patrick Minford - Brexit’s preferred economist - did suggest that the auto industry would close down. However he said this would be a good thing.
Perhaps the Brexiteer hopes and dreams will only be realised when we return to a truly agrarian society, replete with rickets, scurvy, and weevils in the bread.
In Tories are crap news, Teresa's ridiculous insistence that dead kids are nothing to do with her police cuts is probably the worst judged intervention this year. It is.
Astonishing that Hammond is behind only Grayling in the hated stakes. Yet the Tories are always telling us how fabulous the economy's doing (in spite of Brexit). What gives?
He's a Remainer who has been condemned as not falling wholeheartedly behind the one true Brexit faith - see also low ratings for Rudd, Clark and Gauke for I would guess similar reasons.
How else do you explain a positive rating for Liam Fox?
The above is true but he has also failed to produce a budget that did not have immediate negative consequences and is seem not have dealt with the rates issue for small businesses and is seen as a tax riser not a tax reducer.
Astonishing that Hammond is behind only Grayling in the hated stakes. Yet the Tories are always telling us how fabulous the economy's doing (in spite of Brexit). What gives?
He's a Remainer who has been condemned as not falling wholeheartedly behind the one true Brexit faith - see also low ratings for Rudd, Clark and Gauke for I would guess similar reasons.
How else do you explain a positive rating for Liam Fox?
That is an astonishing figure.
Maybe they thought they were voting for Fox Hunting?
Astonishing that Hammond is behind only Grayling in the hated stakes. Yet the Tories are always telling us how fabulous the economy's doing (in spite of Brexit). What gives?
I went green on Leadsom after a piece by Iain Dale the other day saying how she had improved in the leader of house job. Dark horse he reckoned.
Fools and their money are easy parted. If anyone wishes to send me their life savings I promise to look after them very well.
Only if you use it to buy a tank.
[ Response deleted as excessively nerdy]
My nerdy sense caught you.
One of my (many) guilty pleasures is Combat Dealers, I believe they're aiming to restore or reconstruct a Jagdpanther, of which I wholly approve.
Why a Nazi tank rather than an Allied one?
Allied ones look crap, the Germans had the most stylish and best tanks, do a compare of a sherman v jagdpanther.
The Panthers and Tigers have a certain style, but the average PanzerKamfwagen much less so.
Personally I rather enjoy the Soviet SU series, there is a fine SU 100 at the St Petersburg Artillary museum, which I took in while at the World Cup, and free of Mrs Foxy's idea of suitable sightseeing.
Very nice, I am taking grandson to Munster tank museum early April. Bovington Tank Fest each year in September is great day out , it was all the German tanks this year, brilliant.
Let’s call the claim that it’s impossible to reduce immigration for economic reasons what it is: a lie. The East Asian countries prove that’s not the case.
We continue to have high immigration because no-one in government has the political will to enact policies that will reduce it to the target level. Crucially, nothing is done about an increasingly activist judiciary that is emboldened to sabotage almost any moves to tighten conditions. We face the same issue with welfare reform.
Will be interesting to see the change if the deal gets signed.
The deal's been on the table since November. Do you think parliament passing it will make people think it's the right deal?
Because they will have achieved the wishes of roughly half those polled- to leave.
Have you not picked up on the substantial number of Leavers who think the deal is a betrayal of Brexit? If leaving the EU was what they wanted, it would be easy.
Will anyone remember Tim Farron's gay sin remarks though :I ?
Someone does need to turn Wickham's hyperbole knob down a bit. He keeps going to 11. It gets tiresome.
Yes 14 is a significant number - but it is not a storm. Warsi's contribution to British politics has never been top notch - I am surprised anyone takes note of anything she says these days.
We continue to have high immigration because no-one in government has the political will to enact policies that will reduce it to the target level. Crucially, nothing is done about an increasingly activist judiciary that is emboldened to sabotage almost any moves to tighten conditions. We face the same issue with welfare reform.
Solution: move immigration and asylum policy to the European level.
Will be interesting to see the change if the deal gets signed.
The deal's been on the table since November. Do you think parliament passing it will make people think it's the right deal?
Because they will have achieved the wishes of roughly half those polled- to leave.
Have you not picked up on the substantial number of Leavers who think the deal is a betrayal of Brexit? If leaving the EU was what they wanted, it would be easy.
Will anyone remember Tim Farron's gay sin remarks though :I ?
Someone does need to turn Wickham's hyperbole knob down a bit. He keeps going to 11. It gets tiresome.
Yes 14 is a significant number - but it is not a storm. Warsi's contribution to British politics has never been top notch - I am surprised anyone takes note of anything she says these days.
She ought to be pleased that the Conservative Party has moved to discipline them.
They're great fun! One of my earliest flights was on a BEA Vanguard (when everyone dressed in their "Sunday Best" to fly....)
BOAC = Better On A Camel?
GARUDA = Good And Reliable Under Dutch Administration TWA = Try Walking Across SABENA = Such A Bloody Experience Never Again QANTAS = Queens And Nymphomaniacs To Australia
They're great fun! One of my earliest flights was on a BEA Vanguard (when everyone dressed in their "Sunday Best" to fly....)
BOAC = Better On A Camel?
GARUDA = Good And Reliable Under Dutch Administration TWA = Try Walking Across SABENA = Such A Bloody Experience Never Again QANTAS = Queens And Nymphomaniacs To Australia
At the end of the day, Brexit creates trade friction with by far our biggest market.
At the margin, according to all known economic theory except perhaps that taught in North Korea, this will reduce trading activity and both economic activity and jobs will reduce as a result.
The harder the Brexit, the bigger these effects.
It will be difficult to take any particular anecdote of say a factory closing down and attribute it solely to Brexit. It is in aggregate where the effects will be seen, along the with the effects of ongoing uncertainty since 2016.
Obviously there is a trade off to be made. It is reasonable enough I suppose to say that this is a cost worth paying in order to regain sovereignty over immigration.
What makes you look stupid is when you deny there is any cost to be paid at all. It is surprising this is still a debating point.
Brexit may mean the UK "regains sovereignty" over immigration but that does not mean it is going to stop immigration. There are going to be some very unhappy people who voted for Brexit who will see immigrants from Europe replaced by those from the rest of the World, especially if the replacement immigrants follow different faiths and establish even more separatist diasporas.
Even in a No Deal Brexit due to demographic change the UK will require migrants to fill all manner of jobs. People retire, die or move to other better paying jobs all the time. It seems to me Brexit wrecks the economy and all the problems a divided society faces will just get worse as their is less money to address these problems.
Indeed. 50% of our immigration comes from outside the EU. Completely within the ability of government to be controlled, but not reduced. The immigration argument is the biggest lie (and boy there have been some whoppers) of the pro-Leave lobby.
Wait, I thought Brexit was good to destroy the economy, in which case there would be no demand for immigrant labour?
A fair point Mr D, though we will always have immigrants, and the point was that many people say that the Brexit vote was a vote against immigration, nobody has really reflected that we did always have "control" over 50% of it. Economic meltdown will be one way of reducing it of course, though it may have a delayed effect!
The new system will be inherently fairer though. No discrimination based on country of origin.
I will bet you all the money in my pocket against all the money in my pocket that it will discriminate on country of origin, whether directly or indirectly.
I am not sure why there is this obsession with Banks. Maybe there was dodgy financial goings on - in which case, report them to the proper authorities and let the legal process do what it needs to.
But the referendum is not going to get overturned. No matter what they try to dig up.
Yes, but if it was in any way subverted it strengthens the case for another vote. Also, IF there is any truth in the allegations then hopefully the little toe rag will end up in jail and perhaps he will take the other of utensils of Putin with him.
Nurse Nurse! Carole Cadwalladr has a login!
I assume you believe the findings of the FBI that Moscow wishes to subvert western democratic processes a conspiracy eh? Not convenient to your belief that good old Uncle Vladimir couldn't possibly want to interfere? Well I guess naivete is the by-word for most Leave supporters. How does it feel to help support the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power? How very patriotic of you!
Wow you are literally batshit mental. Your belief in conspiracy theories added to year distaste towards non EU immigration suggests you need to get out into the real world and talk to people. Not everything in life you disagree with is down to Putin, sometimes people just think differently to you. I really couldn't care less what Putin's views are on anything, like other Brits I'm capable of thinking for myself.
Do you think Russia interfered in the poll?
No, because I'm not bonkers and don't believe everything I read on twitter. If Russia was rigging polls they'd have put Corbyn in power. It worries me that both anti-semetic and Russia has ruined our democracy conspiracy theories are so commonplace on the fringes of our society.
Why would Russia put Corbyn in power? They haven't been anywhere near Communist for quite a while now. All they needed to do was detach the Brits from the Germans so that when they retake the Baltic's and whatever bits of Central Europe they can get, the Germans will be too weak to stop them. Theresa is doing a perfectly good job all by herself without shoehorning Corbyn in.
It assumes that the place where one lives is also the place where one interacts with people. That isn't true, as every town has its commuters who spend all day somewhere else.. It would be a good idea if he could repeat his analysis for workplace instead of abode.
Comments
So anything to get attention.
I blame my phone...
https://tradingeconomics.com/japan/productivity
The figures are much the same as UK, and sometimes lower.
And the bullies always have subordinates, who have no been on the sharp end of it, who will defend them as just strong and effective leaders.
The most amazing thing about this poll is how badly May rates. One would think she deserves a “leadership bonus” from the membership but apparently not.
How else do you explain a positive rating for Liam Fox?
What are they thinking?
Mealworms - protein of the future 😂
What’s the weather like?
https://twitter.com/benshepherdecon/status/1102852462602522624?s=21
https://twitter.com/benshepherdecon/status/1102852468612960257?s=21
Antisemitism CHAOS ! https://twitter.com/TheRedRoar/status/1102592781409808387
Will anyone remember Tim Farron's gay sin remarks though :I ?
Maybe they thought they were voting for Fox Hunting?
We continue to have high immigration because no-one in government has the political will to enact policies that will reduce it to the target level. Crucially, nothing is done about an increasingly activist judiciary that is emboldened to sabotage almost any moves to tighten conditions. We face the same issue with welfare reform.
Yes 14 is a significant number - but it is not a storm. Warsi's contribution to British politics has never been top notch - I am surprised anyone takes note of anything she says these days.
The fact this bunch will be choosing the next PM should worry most sane people .
Bahhhhhh.