On a more cheerful note: some undiscovered Steve Richards salty goodness:
The Cameron Years. Political columnist and broadcaster Steve Richards presents the concluding part of a series looking back on David Cameron's dramatic years in power and exploring his legacy.
Imagine the furore if a subset of parents wanted to take their children out of a school because it's teaching their children about Islam.
Plenty of EDL type parents would have no problem with that
The difference is the school almost certainly wouldn't have backed down in that scenario and would have received support from MPs, councillors, the media etc etc who would have openly criticised the parents.
Given polling has suggested the majority of UK Muslims 52% support making homosexuality illegal (compared to only 5% of the wider population) and only 18% agreed it should be legal (the remaining 30% 'had no opinion'?) surely this needs to be tackled via education. If that is not happening how will those views change?
Its quite one thing to morally disapprove of someone else's life choices or sexual orientation - quite another to think they should be locked up because of them!
Homosexuality is illegal in the likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia and Sudan which are Muslim majority, the same poll also had 39% agree that “wives should always obey their husbands”, compared with 5% of the country as a whole. Two-thirds (66%) did say they completely condemned people who took part in stoning adulterers, and a further 13% condemned them to some extent, so 21% backed stoning adulterers. Nearly a third (31%) thought it was acceptable for a British Muslim man to have more than one wife, compared with 8% of the wider population.
The Muslim year currently is 1441 and in some respects many Islamic nations are where we were at that time on the Gregorian Calendar
The parents in Birmingham were doing what they think is best for their children, and have every right to stop them being inculcated with what they believe are decadent ideas.
Pretty sure society as a whole is quite willing to decide people, including parents, do not have every right to do any number of things.
There is a difference between providing information that there are people who are homosexual, who should be treated with toleration, and actively endorsing/promoting such lifestyles to the children of people who regard them as an abomination.
Imagine the furore if a subset of parents wanted to take their children out of a school because it's teaching their children about Islam.
Plenty of EDL type parents would have no problem with that
The difference is the school almost certainly wouldn't have backed down in that scenario and would have received support from MPs, councillors, the media etc etc who would have openly criticised the parents.
Given polling has suggested the majority of UK Muslims 52% support making homosexuality illegal (compared to only 5% of the wider population) and only 18% agreed it should be legal (the remaining 30% 'had no opinion'?) surely this needs to be tackled via education. If that is not happening how will those views change?
Its quite one thing to morally disapprove of someone else's life choices or sexual orientation - quite another to think they should be locked up because of them!
Homosexuality is illegal in the likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia and Sudan which are Muslim majority, the same poll also had 39% agree that “wives should always obey their husbands”, compared with 5% of the country as a whole. Two-thirds (66%) did say they completely condemned people who took part in stoning adulterers, and a further 13% condemned them to some extent, so 21% backed stoning adulterers. Nearly a third (31%) thought it was acceptable for a British Muslim man to have more than one wife, compared with 8% of the wider population.
The Muslim year currently is 1441 and in some respects many Islamic nations are where we were at that time on the Gregorian Calendar
The parents in Birmingham were doing what they think is best for their children, and have every right to stop them being inculcated with what they believe are decadent ideas.
Pretty sure society as a whole is quite willing to decide people, including parents, do not have every right to do any number of things.
There is a difference between providing information that there are people who are homosexual, who should be treated with toleration, and actively endorsing/promoting such lifestyles to the children of people who regard them as an abomination.
No there isn't.
Either homosexuality is acceptable, or it is not.
You seem to be suggesting that it's OK, so long as you don't tell anyone you're gay.
If you disapprove of homosexuality, go campaign to get it criminalised. If you fail, well bad luck.
15% per district is not the same as 15% per state.
Sure, like I said the district-wide delegates (iiuc most of them) have a 15% floor per district, and the state-wide delegates have a 15% floor for the state. (Then there are super-delegates, but they don't count unless the first vote is inconclusive.)
So a candidate polling 10% isn't always going to come out with zero, but depending how lumpy their support is, they'd have to be very lucky to get anything near 10%.
Well done @Black_Rook - good to see someone calling out those homophobic parents in Birmingham and the damning silence that has followed. Hat tip also to @Cyclefree for being supportive
I guess the problem with gay people is that we’re stuck on about 2% of the population. Ken Livingstone and George Galloway made the simple calculation that they can appeal to a much larger (and growing) constituency by throwing us under the bus. Literally no MPs have spoken up for gay people on this issue - just a load of handwaving and saying that ‘consultation’ is required.
No consultation is required at all. If these parents want to take their children out of school because it’s teaching their children that gay people are normal and that there is no need to hate or fear them, they can pay for their own schools.
Imagine the furore if a subset of parents wanted to take their children out of a school because it's teaching their children about Islam.
Why imagine a furore about something that hasn’t happened and won’t happen?
In any case, refusing to let one’s children learn about a major world religion is also indefensible.
Indeed, as a humanities academic study.
Brainwashing children with religious *beliefs* before they are old enough to form their own opinions is indefensible.
I don’t think it’s possible to rahodox will make up 30% of the entire population.
Israel is a tiny country. Religio-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion
Not being religious is not the same as being an outright atheist
Indeed. And where do Buddhists fit in?
They are reincarnated so probably go through phases of atheism before becoming religious again!
I practice meditation every day attend a gathering at least once a week, and go on retreat monthly if I can. That would make me very religious by most people's standards, certainly in the UK. I am also an atheist. As well as a person of faith.
Buddhism is a religion so if you practice Buddhism you are religious by definition, even Buddhists have gods even if they do not believe in a creator deity
I tend to agree with you. However, may I gently suggest you stay off Buddhist chat boards!!!! Religion/ not religion? Do we have God realms/ are they merely emanating from our root mind? You cause enough controversy on here my friend .
The current Jewish year is 5779, but the Jewish view towards homosexuality is also similar to that of Islam. It is codified in Leviticus chapters 18 and 20, where such practices are defined as an abomination and deserving of the ultimate penalty of death.
Much of the hostility to Jews and Muslims is because they have different moral values and beliefs that are an anathema to current Western attitudes. The parents in Birmingham were doing what they think is best for their children, and have every right to stop them being inculcated with what they believe are decadent ideas.
I can't speak for Islam, but on Judaism, that's an extremely one-sided view. No such death penalty has been carried out in Judaism for probably 2,000 years, and the modern state of Israel affords far more rights to gay people than any its neighbours, and is ahead of plenty of other countries, including several in Europe. Attitudes among certain communities are, it's fair to say, more variable, but on the whole things are moving in the right direction.
As for the UK, again there are some holdouts, but generally the situation is totally unrecognisable from where it was a decade ago, never mind centuries. The Chief Rabbi last year produced a guide on how to deal with a lot of the more common situations in schools - link below, if anyone's interested - and it was (to my relief) extremely well received and generally recognised as a huge and important step forward.
In short, I don't believe you'd find any moral value or belief in the mainstream UK Jewish community that could be described as anathema to current Western attitudes.
Well done @Black_Rook - good to see someone calling out those homophobic parents in Birmingham and the damning y for their own schools.
Imagine the furore if a subset of parents wanted to take their children out of a school because it's teaching their children about Islam.
Why imagine a furore about something that hasn’t happened and won’t happen?
In any case, refusing to let one’s children learn about a major world religion is also indefensible.
Indeed, as a humanities academic study.
Brainwashing children with religious *beliefs* before they are old enough to form their own opinions is indefensible.
I don’t think it’s possible to rahodox will make up 30% of the entire population.
Israel is a tiny country. Religio-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion
Not being religious is not the same as being an outright atheist
Indeed. And where do Buddhists fit in?
They are reincarnated so probably go through phases of atheism before becoming religious again!
I practice meditation every day attend a gathering at least once a week, and go on retreat monthly if I can. That would make me very religious by most people's standards, certainly in the UK. I am also an atheist. As well as a person of faith.
Buddhism is a religion so if you practice Buddhism you are religious by definition, even Buddhists have gods even if they do not believe in a creator deity
I tend to agree with you. However, may I gently suggest you stay off Buddhist chat boards!!!! Religion/ not religion? Do we have God realms/ are they merely emanating from our root mind? You cause enough controversy on here my friend .
Agreed, off to bed, do not have any more time for in depth discussion of Buddhism and religion unfortunately, doing a training session in the morning
There is a difference between providing information that there are people who are homosexual, who should be treated with toleration, and actively endorsing/promoting such lifestyles to the children of people who regard them as an abomination.
No there isn't.
Either homosexuality is acceptable, or it is not.
You seem to be suggesting that it's OK, so long as you don't tell anyone you're gay.
If you disapprove of homosexuality, go campaign to get it criminalised. If you fail, well bad luck.
I am arguing in favour of toleration/decriminalisation, and against persecution, but also against active promotion/endorsement.
Imagine the furore if a subset of parents wanted to take their children out of a school because it's teaching their children about Islam.
Plenty of EDL type parents would have no problem with that
The difference is the school almost certainly wouldn't have backed down in that scenario and would have received support from MPs, councillors, the media etc etc who would have openly criticised the parents.
Given polling has suggested the majority of UK Muslims 52% support making homosexuality illegal (compared to only 5% of the wider population) and only 18% agreed it should be legal (the remaining 30% 'had no opinion'?) surely this needs to be tackled via education. If that is not happening how will those views change?
Its quite one thing to morally disapprove of someone else's life choices or sexual orientation - quite another to think they should be locked up because of them!
The Muslim year currently is 1441 and in some respects many Islamic nations are where we were at that time on the Gregorian Calendar
The parents in Birmingham were doing what they think is best for their children, and have every right to stop them being inculcated with what they believe are decadent ideas.
Pretty sure society as a whole is quite willing to decide people, including parents, do not have every right to do any number of things.
There is a difference between providing information that there are people who are homosexual, who should be treated with toleration, and actively endorsing/promoting such lifestyles to the children of people who regard them as an abomination.
No there isn't.
Either homosexuality is acceptable, or it is not.
You seem to be suggesting that it's OK, so long as you don't tell anyone you're gay.
If you disapprove of homosexuality, go campaign to get it criminalised. If you fail, well bad luck.
Talking in general (not about this subject), there are lots of things in life that are on the border between being acceptable and unacceptable, and aren't obviously one or the other.
Imagine the furore if a subset of parents wanted to take their children out of a school because it's teaching their children about Islam.
Plenty of EDL type parents would have no problem with that
The difference is the school almost certainly wouldn't have backed down in that scenario and would have received support from MPs, councillors, the media etc etc who would have openly criticised the parents.
Given polling has suggested the majority of UK Muslims 52% support making homosexuality illegal (compared to only 5% of the wider population) and only 18% agreed it should be legal (the remaining 30% 'had no opinion'?) surely this needs to be tackled via education. If that is not happening how will those views change?
Its quite one thing to morally disapprove of someone else's life choices or sexual orientation - quite another to think they should be locked up because of them!
Homosexuality is illegal in the likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia and Sudan which are Muslim majority, the same poll also had 39% agree that “wives should always obey their husbands”, compared with 5% of the country as a whole. Two-thirds (66%) did say they completely condemned people who took part in stoning adulterers, and a further 13% condemned them to some extent, so 21% backed stoning adulterers. Nearly a third (31%) thought it was acceptable for a British Muslim man to have more than one wife, compared with 8% of the wider population.
The Muslim year currently is 1441 and in some respects many Islamic nations are where we were at that time on the Gregorian Calendar
The current Jewish year is 5779, but the Jewish view towards homosexuality is also similar to that of Islam. It is codified in Leviticus chapters 18 and 20, where such practices are defined as an abomination and deserving of the ultimate penalty of death.
Much of the hostility to Jews and Muslims is because they have different moral values and beliefs that are an anathema to current Western attitudes. The parents in Birmingham were doing what they think is best for their children, and have every right to stop them being inculcated with what they believe are decadent ideas.
Homosexuality is fully legal in Israel and Israel also has civil partnerships
I'm not sure about the latter. I think they will recognise civil marriages if performed abroad, but there is a lot of resistance to the idea of introducing them internally.
Well done @Black_Rook - good to see someone calling out those homophobic parents in Birmingham and the damning y for their own schools.
Imagine the furore if a subset of parents wanted to take their children out of a school because it's teaching their children about Islam.
Why imagine a furore about something that hasn’t happened and won’t happen?
In any case, refusing to let one’s children learn about a major world religion is also indefensible.
Indeed, as a humanities academic study.
Brainwashing children with religious *beliefs* before they are old enough to form their own opinions is indefensible.
I don’t think it’s possible to rahodox will make up 30% of the entire population.
Israel is a tiny country. Religio-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion
Not being religious is not the same as being an outright atheist
Indeed. And where do Buddhists fit in?
They are reincarnated so probably go through phases of atheism before becoming religious again!
I practice meditation every day attend a gathering at least once a week, and go on retreat monthly if I can. That would make me very religious by most people's standards, certainly in the UK. I am also an atheist. As well as a person of faith.
Buddhism is a religion so if you practice Buddhism you are religious by definition, even Buddhists have gods even if they do not believe in a creator deity
I tend to agree with you. However, may I gently suggest you stay off Buddhist chat boards!!!! Religion/ not religion? Do we have God realms/ are they merely emanating from our root mind? You cause enough controversy on here my friend .
Agreed, off to bed, do not have any more time for in depth discussion of Buddhism and religion unfortunately, doing a training session in the morning
The other thing about the delegates mainly coming from congressional districts is that there increasingly few Democrats in rural areas, but IIUC the weighting that gives places with more Democrats more delegates than places with few delegates is done by state. So the vote of a rural Democrat will count much more heavily than an urban Democrat.
Imagine the furore if a subset of parents wanted to take their children out of a school because it's teaching their children about Islam.
Plenty of EDL type parents would have no problem with that
The difference is the school almost certainly wouldn't have backed down in that scenario and would have received support from MPs, councillors, the media etc etc who would have openly criticised the parents.
Given polling has suggested the majority of UK Muslims 52% support making homosexuality illegal (compared to only 5% of the wider population) and only 18% agreed it should be legal (the remaining 30% 'had no opinion'?) surely this needs to be tackled via education. If that is not happening how will those views change?
Its quite one thing to morally disapprove of someone else's life choices or sexual orientation - quite another to think they should be locked up because of them!
Homosexuality is illegal in the likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia and Sudan which are Muslim majority, the same poll also had 39% agree that “wives should always obey their husbands”, compared with 5% of the country as a whole. Two-thirds (66%) did say they completely condemned people who took part in stoning adulterers, and a further 13% condemned them to some extent, so 21% backed stoning adulterers. Nearly a third (31%) thought it was acceptable for a British Muslim man to have more than one wife, compared with 8% of the wider population.
The Muslim year currently is 1441 and in some respects many Islamic nations are where we were at that time on the Gregorian Calendar
The current Jewish year elieve are decadent ideas.
Homosexuality is fully legal in Israel and Israel also has civil partnerships
I'm not sure about the latter. I think they will recognise civil marriages if performed abroad, but there is a lot of resistance to the idea of introducing them internally.
Israel has had unregistered cohabitation for same sex couples since 1994 as well as spousal and survivorship benefits but yes not full civil marriages as such
Well done @Black_Rook - good to see someone calling out those homophobic parents in Birmingham and the damning y for their own schools.
Imagine the furore if a subset of parents wanted to take their children out of a school because it's teaching their children about Islam.
Why imagine a furore about something that hasn’t happened and won’t happen?
In any case, refusing to let one’s children learn about a major world religion is also indefensible.
Indeed, as a humanities academic study.
Brainwashing children with religious *beliefs* before they are old enough to form their own opinions is indefensible.
I don’t think it’s possible to rahodox will make up 30% of the entire population.
Israel is a tiny country. Religio-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion
Not being religious is not the same as being an outright atheist
Indeed. And where do Buddhists fit in?
They are reincarnated so probably go through phases of atheism before becoming religious again!
I practice meditation every day attend a gathering at least once a week, and go on retreat monthly if I can. That would make me very religious by most people's standards, certainly in the UK. I am also an atheist. As well as a person of faith.
Buddhism is a religion so if you practice Buddhism you are religious by definition, even Buddhists have gods even if they do not believe in a creator deity
I tend to agree with you. However, may I gently suggest you stay off Buddhist chat boards!!!! Religion/ not religion? Do we have God realms/ are they merely emanating from our root mind? You cause enough controversy on here my friend .
Agreed, off to bed, do not have any more time for in depth discussion of Buddhism and religion unfortunately, doing a training session in the morning
Sleep well. Good luck with the training.
Thanks, although I do a training session every Tuesday morning
"Homosexuality is fully legal in Israel and Israel also has civil partnerships
I'm not sure about the latter. I think they will recognise civil marriages if performed abroad, but there is a lot of resistance to the idea of introducing them internally"
Israel recognises same sex marriages from abroad and allows common law marriages (aka civil unions) which give pretty much the same legal rights as marriage - the only nation in the whole of Asia that grants that right nationwide according to this analysis. Cambodia, Japan and Taiwan allow civil unions in some regions/cities but not nationwide. The Phillipines under Duerte - who favours same sex marriage now is moving towards legalising same sex marriage and Thailand is considering it but that is as far as it goes it seems.
Bearing in mind 60% of the world's population lives in Asia that is rather depressing. But Israel gets zero credit for being the most LGBT friendly nation in the entire continent.!
There is a difference between providing information that there are people who are homosexual, who should be treated with toleration, and actively endorsing/promoting such lifestyles to the children of people who regard them as an abomination.
No there isn't.
Either homosexuality is acceptable, or it is not.
You seem to be suggesting that it's OK, so long as you don't tell anyone you're gay.
If you disapprove of homosexuality, go campaign to get it criminalised. If you fail, well bad luck.
I am arguing in favour of toleration/decriminalisation, and against persecution, but also against active promotion/endorsement.
I am not prepared to be "tolerated."
You cannot "promote" homosexuality - that shows a massive misunderstanding of what it is to be a homosexual.
So keep you ignorance to yourself. I sure as hell will not tolerate it.
There is a difference between providing information that there are people who are homosexual, who should be treated with toleration, and actively endorsing/promoting such lifestyles to the children of people who regard them as an abomination.
No there isn't.
Either homosexuality is acceptable, or it is not.
You seem to be suggesting that it's OK, so long as you don't tell anyone you're gay.
If you disapprove of homosexuality, go campaign to get it criminalised. If you fail, well bad luck.
I am arguing in favour of toleration/decriminalisation, and against persecution, but also against active promotion/endorsement.
I don't think it is accessible to "promotion/endorsement" in that way. I am not going to climb on a dick just because somebody tells me it's a good idea.
Separately, a US talk show host has described Steve Hilton as "quite the stupidest person I've had on the show".
Which one (talk show host)?
Incidentally, doesn't that epithet apply to Andy Dick, the man who gave cocaine to a recovering addict who went on to shoot her husband dead, then groped Ivanka Trump and got thrown off a talk show.
There is a difference between providing information that there are people who are homosexual, who should be treated with toleration, and actively endorsing/promoting such lifestyles to the children of people who regard them as an abomination.
No there isn't.
Either homosexuality is acceptable, or it is not.
You seem to be suggesting that it's OK, so long as you don't tell anyone you're gay.
If you disapprove of homosexuality, go campaign to get it criminalised. If you fail, well bad luck.
I am arguing in favour of toleration/decriminalisation, and against persecution, but also against active promotion/endorsement.
Ah the campaign for reintroduction of section 28 begins here, and begins now !
There is a difference between providing information that there are people who are homosexual, who should be treated with toleration, and actively endorsing/promoting such lifestyles to the children of people who regard them as an abomination.
No there isn't.
Either homosexuality is acceptable, or it is not.
You seem to be suggesting that it's OK, so long as you don't tell anyone you're gay.
If you disapprove of homosexuality, go campaign to get it criminalised. If you fail, well bad luck.
I am arguing in favour of toleration/decriminalisation, and against persecution, but also against active promotion/endorsement.
I don't think it is accessible to "promotion/endorsement" in that way. I am not going to climb on a dick just because somebody tells me it's a good idea.
"Homosexuality is illegal in the likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia and Sudan"
Not just illegal - but subject to the death penalty in those nations and another 8.
The death penalty even remains on the statute books for Muslim gay men in Qatar - yet not a peep of protest in that regard about them staging the 2022 world cup. Yet people are arguing for a boycott of this year's Eurovision as its being held in Israel!
I used to go on a football forum and there were plenty of complaints when Qatar won the bid. Admittedly many of those were around loads of other issues but the countries attitude towards women and homosexuals were brought up in discussions.
If you swapped the events around I could still see complaints both ways but football is so widely loved I couldn't see a boycott happening or having much effect. Much like with the Qatar world cup I wouldn't be surprised to see less travelling from England but this will be for a host of reasons which homophobia would just be one.
Travelling to the WC in Qatar is going to be a nightmare, unless you’re a huge fan of taking a seven-hour football charter flight, followed by a bus from the airport to the stadium, watch the match then head straight back to the airport for a seven-hour flight home.
There’s barely going to be enough hotel rooms on the island for the teams and officials, and they’ve fallen out with all their neighbours.
The difference is the school almost certainly wouldn't have backed down in that scenario and would have received support from MPs, councillors, the media etc etc who would have openly criticised the parents.
Given polling has suggested the majority of UK Muslims 52% support making homosexuality illegal (compared to only 5% of the wider population) and only 18% agreed it should be legal (the remaining 30% 'had no opinion'?) surely this needs to be tackled via education. If that is not happening how will those views change?
Its quite one thing to morally disapprove of someone else's life choices or sexual orientation - quite another to think they should be locked up because of them!
Homosexuality is illegal in the likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia and Sudan which are Muslim majority, the same poll also had 39% agree that “wives should always obey their husbands”, compared with 5% of the country as a whole. Two-thirds (66%) did say they completely condemned people who took part in stoning adulterers, and a further 13% condemned them to some extent, so 21% backed stoning adulterers. Nearly a third (31%) thought it was acceptable for a British Muslim man to have more than one wife, compared with 8% of the wider population.
The Muslim year currently is 1441 and in some respects many Islamic nations are where we were at that time on the Gregorian Calendar
The current Jewish year is 5779, but the Jewish view towards homosexuality is also similar to that of Islam. It is codified in Leviticus chapters 18 and 20, where such practices are defined as an abomination and deserving of the ultimate penalty of death.
Much of the hostility to Jews and Muslims is because they have different moral values and beliefs that are an anathema to current Western attitudes. The parents in Birmingham were doing what they think is best for their children, and have every right to stop them being inculcated with what they believe are decadent ideas.
Not when they live in a non Muslim country. I am extremely relaxed about Muslims or any other religion coming to settle in the UK. But they have to obey the laws and cultural mores of the country they are settling in. I expect no less when I live or work in an Islamic country even when I feel their laws or customs are wrong.
Well quite. When in Rome. Amazing how many British tourists (and expatriate workers) make idiots of themselves over foreign laws and customs though.
"Homosexuality is illegal in the likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia and Sudan"
Not just illegal - but subject to the death penalty in those nations and another 8.
The death penalty even remains on the statute books for Muslim gay men in Qatar - yet not a peep of protest in that regard about them staging the 2022 world cup. Yet people are arguing for a boycott of this year's Eurovision as its being held in Israel!
I used to go on a football forum and there were plenty of complaints when Qatar won the bid. Admittedly many of those were around loads of other issues but the countries attitude towards women and homosexuals were brought up in discussions.
If you swapped the events around I could still see complaints both ways but football is so widely loved I couldn't see a boycott happening or having much effect. Much like with the Qatar world cup I wouldn't be surprised to see less travelling from England but this will be for a host of reasons which homophobia would just be one.
Travelling to the WC in Qatar is going to be a nightmare, unless you’re a huge fan of taking a seven-hour football charter flight, followed by a bus from the airport to the stadium, watch the match then head straight back to the airport for a seven-hour flight home.
There’s barely going to be enough hotel rooms on the island for the teams and officials, and they’ve fallen out with all their neighbours.
Even before all these neighbour issues really flared up it was going to involve a lot of travel for fans and teams but the whole thing has gone to a ridiculous level.
The main argument in favour I remember at the time which I could get on board with was spreading the tournament around the globe and (depending on how you divide the world) there was some argument for one in the Middle East. Although if we are going to ignore politics (democracy, gay rights etc.) then Iran or Saudi Arabia (if we exclude Turkey as European) seem more obvious choices as actual footballing countries who have been somewhat competitive at football for a while and I assume far more of a domestic football league than Qatar. Also they actually have the basic capacity to hold the event in terms of infrastructure and stadiums*.
*Iran's wouldn't be great but I'm sure the Saudi's would spend huge amounts making some lovely ones.
Admittedly they didn't actually bid but an ME world cup should have waited for a more realistic bidder.
The current Jewish year is 5779, but the Jewish view towards homosexuality is also similar to that of Islam. It is codified in Leviticus chapters 18 and 20, where such practices are defined as an abomination and deserving of the ultimate penalty of death.
Much of the hostility to Jews and Muslims is because they have different moral values and beliefs that are an anathema to current Western attitudes. The parents in Birmingham were doing what they think is best for their children, and have every right to stop them being inculcated with what they believe are decadent ideas.
I can't speak for Islam, but on Judaism, that's an extremely one-sided view. No such death penalty has been carried out in Judaism for probably 2,000 years, and the modern state of Israel affords far more rights to gay people than any its neighbours, and is ahead of plenty of other countries, including several in Europe. Attitudes among certain communities are, it's fair to say, more variable, but on the whole things are moving in the right direction.
As for the UK, again there are some holdouts, but generally the situation is totally unrecognisable from where it was a decade ago, never mind centuries. The Chief Rabbi last year produced a guide on how to deal with a lot of the more common situations in schools - link below, if anyone's interested - and it was (to my relief) extremely well received and generally recognised as a huge and important step forward.
In short, I don't believe you'd find any moral value or belief in the mainstream UK Jewish community that could be described as anathema to current Western attitudes.
"In short, I don't believe you'd find any moral value or belief in the mainstream UK Jewish community that could be described as anathema to current Western attitudes."
Whilst that's very good, and I agree in general, the situation with the Beth Din and divorce is in some cases messy and nasty.
The difference is the school almost certainly wouldn't have backed down in that scenario and would have received support from MPs, councillors, the media etc etc who would have openly criticised the parents.
Given polling has suggested the majority of UK Muslims 52% support making homosexuality illegal (compared to only 5% of the wider population) and only 18% agreed it should be legal (the remaining 30% 'had no opinion'?) surely this needs to be tackled via education. If that is not happening how will those views change?
Its quite one thing to morally disapprove of someone else's life choices or sexual orientation - quite another to think they should be locked up because of them!
The Muslim year currently is 1441 and in some respects many Islamic nations are where we were at that time on the Gregorian Calendar
The current Jewish year is 5779, but the Jewish view towards homosexuality is also similar to that of Islam. It is codified in Leviticus chapters 18 and 20, where such practices are defined as an abomination and deserving of the ultimate penalty of death.
Much of the hostility to Jews and Muslims is because they have different moral values and beliefs that are an anathema to current Western attitudes. The parents in Birmingham were doing what they think is best for their children, and have every right to stop them being inculcated with what they believe are decadent ideas.
Not when they live in a non Muslim country. I am extremely relaxed about Muslims or any other religion coming to settle in the UK. But they have to obey the laws and cultural mores of the country they are settling in. I expect no less when I live or work in an Islamic country even when I feel their laws or customs are wrong.
Well quite. When in Rome. Amazing how many British tourists (and expatriate workers) make idiots of themselves over foreign laws and customs though.
Considering how many British tourists visit foreign countries, the numbers are actually quite small IMO.
Imagine the furore if a subset of parents wanted to take their children out of a school because it's teaching their children about Islam.
Plenty of EDL type parents would have no problem with that
The difference is the school almost certainly wouldn't have backed down in that scenario and would have received support from MPs, councillors, the media etc etc who would have openly criticised the parents.
Given polling has suggested the majority of UK Muslims 52% support making homosexuality illegal (compared to only 5% of the wider population) and only 18% agreed it should be legal (the remaining 30% 'had no opinion'?) surely this needs to be tackled via education. If that is not happening how will those views change?
Its quite one thing to morally disapprove of someone else's life choices or sexual orientation - quite another to think they should be locked up because of them!
The Muslim year currently is 1441 and in some respects many Islamic nations are where we were at that time on the Gregorian Calendar
The parents in Birmingham were doing what they think is best for their children, and have every right to stop them being inculcated with what they believe are decadent ideas.
Pretty sure society as a whole is quite willing to decide people, including parents, do not have every right to do any number of things.
There is a difference between providing information that there are people who are homosexual, who should be treated with toleration, and actively endorsing/promoting such lifestyles to the children of people who regard them as an abomination.
No there isn't.
Either homosexuality is acceptable, or it is not.
You seem to be suggesting that it's OK, so long as you don't tell anyone you're gay.
If you disapprove of homosexuality, go campaign to get it criminalised. If you fail, well bad luck.
Talking in general (not about this subject), there are lots of things in life that are on the border between being acceptable and unacceptable, and aren't obviously one or the other.
We don’t describe those as abominations, and mean it, though.
At one protest parents held signs that read ‘say no to promoting of homosexuality and LGBT ways of life to our children’, ‘stop exploiting children’s innocence’, and ‘education not indoctrination’.
So that's RE off the syllabus then.....
but no.....
‘Up to the end of this term, we will not be delivering any No Outsiders lessons in our long term year curriculum plan, as this half term has already been blocked for religious education (RE).
At one protest parents held signs that read ‘say no to promoting of homosexuality and LGBT ways of life to our children’, ‘stop exploiting children’s innocence’, and ‘education not indoctrination’.
So that's RE off the syllabus then.....
but no.....
‘Up to the end of this term, we will not be delivering any No Outsiders lessons in our long term year curriculum plan, as this half term has already been blocked for religious education (RE).
Great stuff: "we would still have a vote and representation in EU institutions and the European Parliament" - now if only there was a way to make that benefit permanent...
At one protest parents held signs that read ‘say no to promoting of homosexuality and LGBT ways of life to our children’, ‘stop exploiting children’s innocence’, and ‘education not indoctrination’.
So that's RE off the syllabus then.....
but no.....
‘Up to the end of this term, we will not be delivering any No Outsiders lessons in our long term year curriculum plan, as this half term has already been blocked for religious education (RE).
Not the toughest name in the Democrat field.. not by far, still weird though!
No, although a Hickenlooper-Klobuchar ticket would need either very big boards or very small font.
If elected, Hickenlooper would have the longest name of any of the 45 presidents (currently Washington and Eisenhower at 10 letters a piece, and would be only the second four-syllable president, after Ike).
You could make some great internet passwords out of that.
At one protest parents held signs that read ‘say no to promoting of homosexuality and LGBT ways of life to our children’, ‘stop exploiting children’s innocence’, and ‘education not indoctrination’.
So that's RE off the syllabus then.....
but no.....
‘Up to the end of this term, we will not be delivering any No Outsiders lessons in our long term year curriculum plan, as this half term has already been blocked for religious education (RE).
Great stuff: "we would still have a vote and representation in EU institutions and the European Parliament" - now if only there was a way to make that benefit permanent...
What makes you think all “Brexiteers” actually want to Leave?
The difference is the school almost certainly wouldn't have backed down in that scenario and would have received support from MPs, councillors, the media etc etc who would have openly criticised the parents.
Given polling has suggested the majority of UK Muslims 52% support making homosexuality illegal (compared to only 5% of the wider population) and only 18% agreed it should be legal (the remaining 30% 'had no opinion'?) surely this needs to be tackled via education. If that is not happening how will those views change?
Its quite one thing to morally disapprove of someone else's life choices or sexual orientation - quite another to think they should be locked up because of them!
The Muslim year currently is 1441 and in some respects many Islamic nations are where we were at that time on the Gregorian Calendar
The current Jewish year is 5779, but the Jewish view towards homosexuality is also similar to that of Islam. It is codified in Leviticus chapters 18 and 20, where such practices are defined as an abomination and deserving of the ultimate penalty of death.
Much of the hostility to Jews and Muslims is because they have different moral values and beliefs that are an anathema to current Western attitudes. The parents in Birmingham were doing what they think is best for their children, and have every right to stop them being inculcated with what they believe are decadent ideas.
Not when they live in a non Muslim country. I am extremely relaxed about Muslims or any other religion coming to settle in the UK. But they have to obey the laws and cultural mores of the country they are settling in. I expect no less when I live or work in an Islamic country even when I feel their laws or customs are wrong.
Well quite. When in Rome. Amazing how many British tourists (and expatriate workers) make idiots of themselves over foreign laws and customs though.
Considering how many British tourists visit foreign countries, the numbers are actually quite small IMO.
I usually try and avoid British tourists abroad like the plague.
The difference is the school almost certainly wouldn't have backed down in that scenario and would have received support from MPs, councillors, the media etc etc who would have openly criticised the parents.
Given polling has suggested the majority of UK Muslims 52% support making homosexuality illegal (compared to only 5% of the wider population) and only 18% agreed it should be legal (the remaining 30% 'had no opinion'?) surely this needs to be tackled via education. If that is not happening how will those views change?
Its quite one thing to morally disapprove of someone else's life choices or sexual orientation - quite another to think they should be locked up because of them!
The Muslim year currently is 1441 and in some respects many Islamic nations are where we were at that time on the Gregorian Calendar
The current Jewish year is 5779, but the Jewish view towards homosexuality is also similar to that of Islam. It is codified in Leviticus chapters 18 and 20, where such practices are defined as an abomination and deserving of the ultimate penalty of death.
Much of the hostility to Jews and Muslims is because they have different moral values and beliefs that are an anathema to current Western attitudes. The parents in Birmingham were doing what they think is best for their children, and have every right to stop them being inculcated with what they believe are decadent ideas.
Not when they live in a non Muslim country. I am extremely relaxed about Muslims or any other religion coming to settle in the UK. But they have to obey the laws and cultural mores of the country they are settling in. I expect no less when I live or work in an Islamic country even when I feel their laws or customs are wrong.
Well quite. When in Rome. Amazing how many British tourists (and expatriate workers) make idiots of themselves over foreign laws and customs though.
Considering how many British tourists visit foreign countries, the numbers are actually quite small IMO.
I usually try and avoid British tourists abroad like the plague.
The party has form under The JC when it comes to data. I emailed THE PARTY to register for information on several leadership candidates in 2015. And then for several years received emails from Jeremy for Labour Ltd (Trading as Momemtum) who claimed I had given permission. The Corbyn machine simply stole data on a wholesale basis (as revealed in that Dispatches undercover film a couple of years ago).
So now they have a problem. They need someone seen as serious and competent so they hire a former Lord Chancellor. His first step is to highlight that Formby is either a liar or incompetent when it comes to GDPR - either way she shows how she is a political stooge first and Chief Exec leading a party organisation second.
Falconer then goes straight for the jugular - show me the emails. Except that they can't. Sounds like a decent number will freely interchange Labour/Momentum/Unite email addresses for Labour business (after all, whats the difference...?). He will push. They will show him a few. Then he will quit.
Which leads to the purpose of the exercise. Hire a leading Blairite. Have him dig a little, make him quit claiming sklulduggery, then denounce him and anyone who ever voted Labour as a Tory stooge spreading LIES and FAKE NEWS about the Beloved JC. Falconer has been set up as Proof that there is a dirty Smear Campaign against poor The Jeremy proving once and for all that a deep level network of influence is at work. I have no doubt that Lord Levy's name will be thrown around on Facebook as it always is when cultists try and show they aren't anti-semitic.
At one protest parents held signs that read ‘say no to promoting of homosexuality and LGBT ways of life to our children’, ‘stop exploiting children’s innocence’, and ‘education not indoctrination’.
So that's RE off the syllabus then.....
but no.....
‘Up to the end of this term, we will not be delivering any No Outsiders lessons in our long term year curriculum plan, as this half term has already been blocked for religious education (RE).
We've discussed this on here before, but it's amazing how far we've come towards tolerance and equal rights for all sorts of groups.
It's odd to think back at all the controversies: from things like gay rights, to female CofE priests. People declared disaster at every move, but the changes have hardly broken society.
The party has form under The JC when it comes to data. I emailed THE PARTY to register for information on several leadership candidates in 2015. And then for several years received emails from Jeremy for Labour Ltd (Trading as Momemtum) who claimed I had given permission. The Corbyn machine simply stole data on a wholesale basis (as revealed in that Dispatches undercover film a couple of years ago).
So now they have a problem. They need someone seen as serious and competent so they hire a former Lord Chancellor. His first step is to highlight that Formby is either a liar or incompetent when it comes to GDPR - either way she shows how she is a political stooge first and Chief Exec leading a party organisation second.
Falconer then goes straight for the jugular - show me the emails. Except that they can't. Sounds like a decent number will freely interchange Labour/Momentum/Unite email addresses for Labour business (after all, whats the difference...?). He will push. They will show him a few. Then he will quit.
Which leads to the purpose of the exercise. Hire a leading Blairite. Have him dig a little, make him quit claiming sklulduggery, then denounce him and anyone who ever voted Labour as a Tory stooge spreading LIES and FAKE NEWS about the Beloved JC. Falconer has been set up as Proof that there is a dirty Smear Campaign against poor The Jeremy proving once and for all that a deep level network of influence is at work. I have no doubt that Lord Levy's name will be thrown around on Facebook as it always is when cultists try and show they aren't anti-semitic.
For God's sake, Vince, grow a pair and get out there.
Not the toughest name in the Democrat field.. not by far, still weird though!
No, although a Hickenlooper-Klobuchar ticket would need either very big boards or very small font.
If elected, Hickenlooper would have the longest name of any of the 45 presidents (currently Washington and Eisenhower at 10 letters a piece, and would be only the second four-syllable president, after Ike).
You could make some great internet passwords out of that.
Klobuchar beating Hickenlooper 7 to 4 in the critical haveibeenpwned password mindshare primary
Great stuff: "we would still have a vote and representation in EU institutions and the European Parliament" - now if only there was a way to make that benefit permanent...
Not the toughest name in the Democrat field.. not by far, still weird though!
No, although a Hickenlooper-Klobuchar ticket would need either very big boards or very small font.
If elected, Hickenlooper would have the longest name of any of the 45 presidents (currently Washington and Eisenhower at 10 letters a piece, and would be only the second four-syllable president, after Ike).
You could make some great internet passwords out of that.
Klobuchar beating Hickenlooper 7 to 4 in the critical haveibeenpwned password mindshare primary
The party has form under The JC when it comes to data. I emailed THE PARTY to register for information on several leadership candidates in 2015. And then for several years received emails from Jeremy for Labour Ltd (Trading as Momemtum) who claimed I had given permission. The Corbyn machine simply stole data on a wholesale basis (as revealed in that Dispatches undercover film a couple of years ago).
So now they have a problem. They need someone seen as serious and competent so they hire a former Lord Chancellor. His first step is to highlight that Formby is either a liar or incompetent when it comes to GDPR - either way she shows how she is a political stooge first and Chief Exec leading a party organisation second.
Falconer then goes straight for the jugular - show me the emails. Except that they can't. Sounds like a decent number will freely interchange Labour/Momentum/Unite email addresses for Labour business (after all, whats the difference...?). He will push. They will show him a few. Then he will quit.
Which leads to the purpose of the exercise. Hire a leading Blairite. Have him dig a little, make him quit claiming sklulduggery, then denounce him and anyone who ever voted Labour as a Tory stooge spreading LIES and FAKE NEWS about the Beloved JC. Falconer has been set up as Proof that there is a dirty Smear Campaign against poor The Jeremy proving once and for all that a deep level network of influence is at work. I have no doubt that Lord Levy's name will be thrown around on Facebook as it always is when cultists try and show they aren't anti-semitic.
So the latest conspiracy theory is that CF is being hired to prove there's a conspiracy?
The difference is the school almost certainly wouldn't have backed down in that scenario and would have received support from MPs, councillors, the media etc etc who would have openly criticised the parents.
Given polling has suggested the majority of UK Muslims 52% support making homosexuality illegal (compared to only 5% of the wider population) and only 18% agreed it should be legal (the remaining 30% 'had no opinion'?) surely this needs to be tackled via education. If that is not happening how will those views change?
Its quite one thing to morally disapprove of someone else's life choices or sexual orientation - quite another to think they should be locked up because of them!
The Muslim year currently is 1441 and in some respects many Islamic nations are where we were at that time on the Gregorian Calendar
The current Jewish year is 5779, but the Jewish view towards homosexuality is also similar to that of Islam. It is codified in Leviticus chapters 18 and 20, where such practices are defined as an abomination and deserving of the ultimate penalty of death.
Much of the hostility to Jews and Muslims is because they have different moral values and beliefs that are an anathema to current Western attitudes. The parents in Birmingham were doing what they think is best for their children, and have every right to stop them being inculcated with what they believe are decadent ideas.
Not when they live in a non Muslim country. I am extremely relaxed about Muslims or any other religion coming to settle in the UK. But they have to obey the laws and cultural mores of the country they are settling in. I expect no less when I live or work in an Islamic country even when I feel their laws or customs are wrong.
Well quite. When in Rome. Amazing how many British tourists (and expatriate workers) make idiots of themselves over foreign laws and customs though.
Considering how many British tourists visit foreign countries, the numbers are actually quite small IMO.
I usually try and avoid British tourists abroad like the plague.
The party has form under The JC when it comes to data. I emailed THE PARTY to register for information on several leadership candidates in 2015. And then for several years received emails from Jeremy for Labour Ltd (Trading as Momemtum) who claimed I had given permission. The Corbyn machine simply stole data on a wholesale basis (as revealed in that Dispatches undercover film a couple of years ago).
So now they have a problem. They need someone seen as serious and competent so they hire a former Lord Chancellor. His first step is to highlight that Formby is either a liar or incompetent when it comes to GDPR - either way she shows how she is a political stooge first and Chief Exec leading a party organisation second.
Falconer then goes straight for the jugular - show me the emails. Except that they can't. Sounds like a decent number will freely interchange Labour/Momentum/Unite email addresses for Labour business (after all, whats the difference...?). He will push. They will show him a few. Then he will quit.
Which leads to the purpose of the exercise. Hire a leading Blairite. Have him dig a little, make him quit claiming sklulduggery, then denounce him and anyone who ever voted Labour as a Tory stooge spreading LIES and FAKE NEWS about the Beloved JC. Falconer has been set up as Proof that there is a dirty Smear Campaign against poor The Jeremy proving once and for all that a deep level network of influence is at work. I have no doubt that Lord Levy's name will be thrown around on Facebook as it always is when cultists try and show they aren't anti-semitic.
I don’t understand why nothing came of the outrageous use of voting intention data carried out by canvasssing teams over many years was accessed to deny membership in the £3 new member infiltration panic.
Well done @Black_Rook - good to see someone calling out those homophobic parents in Birmingham and the damning silence that has followed. Hat tip also to @Cyclefree for being supportive
I guess the problem with gay people is that we’re stuck on about 2% of the population. Ken Livingstone and George Galloway made the simple calculation that they can appeal to a much larger (and growing) constituency by throwing us under the bus. Literally no MPs have spoken up for gay people on this issue - just a load of handwaving and saying that ‘consultation’ is required.
No consultation is required at all. If these parents want to take their children out of school because it’s teaching their children that gay people are normal and that there is no need to hate or fear them, they can pay for their own schools.
Completely agree. I was deeply depressed by that story for a variety of reasons not least of which is that it appears that the lessons of Rotherham and sundry other places have not been learned. I have no problem with immigrants who wish to be British. I have a real problem with those who want to have all the benefits of living here but maintain the culture that they had on the sub continent and who treat gays, women and anyone else they think less worthy badly.
When will we learn? We test them for nationality on obscure pieces of British history and landmarks and don't test them on the respect, decency and tolerance that are central to our own culture. The school was completely wrong to cave in.
Worrying times. Will my 250/1 tip on Verstappen be toppled? [I'd probably start adding a 'within 2 weeks' caveat to any bragging ].
Extraordinarily unlikely, I think.
Hickenlooper is running as a bipartisan (as RCS1k pointed out, he considered a joint ticket with Kasich at one point). Not only isn’t there a market for that at the moment in the Democratic party, it is not even a coherent strategy for governing in the imaginary situation where he actually got elected.
The Republican party in Washington went full on scorched earth during Obama’s presidency, and there are very few indeed in either House or Senate whose first principle in dealing with a Democratic administration is not legislative sabotage. Democrats have responded accordingly, and that is not going to change until after Trump becomes an unpleasant memory.
The party has form under The JC when it comes to data. I emailed THE PARTY to register for information on several leadership candidates in 2015. And then for several years received emails from Jeremy for Labour Ltd (Trading as Momemtum) who claimed I had given permission. The Corbyn machine simply stole data on a wholesale basis (as revealed in that Dispatches undercover film a couple of years ago).
So now they have a problem. They need someone seen as serious and competent so they hire a former Lord Chancellor. His first step is to highlight that Formby is either a liar or incompetent when it comes to GDPR - either way she shows how she is a political stooge first and Chief Exec leading a party organisation second.
Falconer then goes straight for the jugular - show me the emails. Except that they can't. Sounds like a decent number will freely interchange Labour/Momentum/Unite email addresses for Labour business (after all, whats the difference...?). He will push. They will show him a few. Then he will quit.
Which leads to the purpose of the exercise. Hire a leading Blairite. Have him dig a little, make him quit claiming sklulduggery, then denounce him and anyone who ever voted Labour as a Tory stooge spreading LIES and FAKE NEWS about the Beloved JC. Falconer has been set up as Proof that there is a dirty Smear Campaign against poor The Jeremy proving once and for all that a deep level network of influence is at work. I have no doubt that Lord Levy's name will be thrown around on Facebook as it always is when cultists try and show they aren't anti-semitic.
If Lord Falconer quits, his reasons for doing so will give just the coverage that many, many MPs and councillors will need to depart. If that includes Watson, I can believe it will be enough to make them the official Opposition. Question then becomes: who do the unions fund?
The current Jewish year is 5779, but the Jewish view towards homosexuality is also similar to that of Islam. It is codified in Leviticus chapters 18 and 20, where such practices are defined as an abomination and deserving of the ultimate penalty of death.
Much of the hostility to Jews and Muslims is because they have different moral values and beliefs that are an anathema to current Western attitudes. The parents in Birmingham were doing what they think is best for their children, and have every right to stop them being inculcated with what they believe are decadent ideas.
I can't speak for Islam, but on Judaism, that's an extremely one-sided view. No such death penalty has been carried out in Judaism for probably 2,000 years, and the modern state of Israel affords far more rights to gay people than any its neighbours, and is ahead of plenty of other countries, including several in Europe. Attitudes among certain communities are, it's fair to say, more variable, but on the whole things are moving in the right direction.
As for the UK, again there are some holdouts, but generally the situation is totally unrecognisable from where it was a decade ago, never mind centuries. The Chief Rabbi last year produced a guide on how to deal with a lot of the more common situations in schools - link below, if anyone's interested - and it was (to my relief) extremely well received and generally recognised as a huge and important step forward.
In short, I don't believe you'd find any moral value or belief in the mainstream UK Jewish community that could be described as anathema to current Western attitudes.
"In short, I don't believe you'd find any moral value or belief in the mainstream UK Jewish community that could be described as anathema to current Western attitudes."
Whilst that's very good, and I agree in general, the situation with the Beth Din and divorce is in some cases messy and nasty.
I expect TheJezziah to be along any moment to say that I'm anti-Semitic for saying this...
Well, your point is fair, and well made. Two things though:
1) Basically everyone agrees with the premise that everything that can be done in these situations, should be done.
2) An inordinate amount of work has been put in over the years (and this is a known problem dating back centuries) in order to make them as few and far between as possible.
They are still, as you say, horrendous when they do occur.
The difference is the school almost certainly wouldn't have backed down in that scenario and would have received support from MPs, councillors, the media etc etc who would have openly criticised the parents.
Given polling has suggested the majority of UK Muslims 52% support making homosexuality illegal (compared to only 5% of the wider population) and only 18% agreed it should be legal (the remaining 30% 'had no opinion'?) surely this needs to be tackled via education. If that is not happening how will those views change?
Its quite one thing to morally disapprove of someone else's life choices or sexual orientation - quite another to think they should be locked up because of them!
The Muslim year currently is 1441 and in some respects many Islamic nations are where we were at that time on the Gregorian Calendar
The current Jewish year is 5779, but the Jewish view towards homosexuality is also similar to that of Islam. It is codified in Leviticus chapters 18 and 20, where such practices are defined as an abomination and deserving of the ultimate penalty of death.
Much of the hostility to Jews and Muslims is because they have different moral values and beliefs that are an anathema to current Western attitudes. The parents in Birmingham were doing what they think is best for their children, and have every right to stop them being inculcated with what they believe are decadent ideas.
Not when they live in a non Muslim country. I am extremely relaxed about Muslims or any other religion coming to settle in the UK. But they have to obey the laws and cultural mores of the country they are settling in. I expect no less when I live or work in an Islamic country even when I feel their laws or customs are wrong.
Well quite. When in Rome. Amazing how many British tourists (and expatriate workers) make idiots of themselves over foreign laws and customs though.
Considering how many British tourists visit foreign countries, the numbers are actually quite small IMO.
I usually try and avoid British tourists abroad like the plague.
Would we be OK if we covered our heads in brown paper bags?
Not the toughest name in the Democrat field.. not by far, still weird though!
No, although a Hickenlooper-Klobuchar ticket would need either very big boards or very small font.
If elected, Hickenlooper would have the longest name of any of the 45 presidents (currently Washington and Eisenhower at 10 letters a piece, and would be only the second four-syllable president, after Ike).
You could make some great internet passwords out of that.
Klobuchar beating Hickenlooper 7 to 4 in the critical haveibeenpwned password mindshare primary
Not the toughest name in the Democrat field.. not by far, still weird though!
No, although a Hickenlooper-Klobuchar ticket would need either very big boards or very small font.
If elected, Hickenlooper would have the longest name of any of the 45 presidents (currently Washington and Eisenhower at 10 letters a piece, and would be only the second four-syllable president, after Ike).
You could make some great internet passwords out of that.
Klobuchar beating Hickenlooper 7 to 4 in the critical haveibeenpwned password mindshare primary
Wonderful names these Yanks have..
Neither is as good as Buttigieg. If you learn the pronunciation - Boodijij - you forget how to spell it.
Calling for meetings is all good and well: what would he suggest they do?
As the article says, the suggestion of increased stop-and-search seems a possible approach - but to be effective, that would require targeting and effective punishments for carrying weapons. And I bet Coaker would be one of the people screaming about that.
But we also need to tackle the culture that tells young people it's okay - or even cool - to carry a knife.
He's right on one other thing - it's not just an urban problem. Knife crime occurs in small towns, or even villages, as well.
So come on Coaker, give us suggestions of what you'd support.
Not the toughest name in the Democrat field.. not by far, still weird though!
No, although a Hickenlooper-Klobuchar ticket would need either very big boards or very small font.
If elected, Hickenlooper would have the longest name of any of the 45 presidents (currently Washington and Eisenhower at 10 letters a piece, and would be only the second four-syllable president, after Ike).
He anagrams to OK Necrophile - good album title, obv.
One of Radiohead's more cheerful efforts, IIRC
Wow, that's right up there with one of May's better ideas or one of Corbyn's original thoughts.
At one protest parents held signs that read ‘say no to promoting of homosexuality and LGBT ways of life to our children’, ‘stop exploiting children’s innocence’, and ‘education not indoctrination’.
So that's RE off the syllabus then.....
How old are you, Carlotta? RE is not like it was forty years ago. These days it is actually education about religions.
The irony in the placard comes from the fact that the parents do actually indoctrinate their kids.
Worrying times. Will my 250/1 tip on Verstappen be toppled? [I'd probably start adding a 'within 2 weeks' caveat to any bragging ].
Extraordinarily unlikely, I think.
Hickenlooper is running as a bipartisan (as RCS1k pointed out, he considered a joint ticket with Kasich at one point). Not only isn’t there a market for that at the moment in the Democratic party, it is not even a coherent strategy for governing in the imaginary situation where he actually got elected.
The Republican party in Washington went full on scorched earth during Obama’s presidency, and there are very few indeed in either House or Senate whose first principle in dealing with a Democratic administration is not legislative sabotage. Democrats have responded accordingly, and that is not going to change until after Trump becomes an unpleasant memory.
If say Sanders won the Democratic nomination and Trump the GOP nomination it would require Hickenlooper and Kasich to found a new third party centrist US equivalent for TIG or En Marche and not only for they to run for President on a joint ticket but for the new party to run candidates for Congress and state elections too
Calling for meetings is all good and well: what would he suggest they do?
As the article says, the suggestion of increased stop-and-search seems a possible approach - but to be effective, that would require targeting and effective punishments for carrying weapons. And I bet Coaker would be one of the people screaming about that.
But we also need to tackle the culture that tells young people it's okay - or even cool - to carry a knife.
He's right on one other thing - it's not just an urban problem. Knife crime occurs in small towns, or even villages, as well.
So come on Coaker, give us suggestions of what you'd support.
It really says everything about our political class that he can seriously suggest calling a meeting is an answer. Next he'll be suggesting that May should make a speech. That always resolves, well, nothing actually.
Not the toughest name in the Democrat field.. not by far, still weird though!
No, although a Hickenlooper-Klobuchar ticket would need either very big boards or very small font.
If elected, Hickenlooper would have the longest name of any of the 45 presidents (currently Washington and Eisenhower at 10 letters a piece, and would be only the second four-syllable president, after Ike).
You could make some great internet passwords out of that.
Klobuchar beating Hickenlooper 7 to 4 in the critical haveibeenpwned password mindshare primary
Wonderful names these Yanks have..
Neither is as good as Buttigieg. If you learn the pronunciation - Boodijij - you forget how to spell it.
Should be pronouncd Booty-gig... Would have better chance of prising Trump voters away.
Great stuff: "we would still have a vote and representation in EU institutions and the European Parliament" - now if only there was a way to make that benefit permanent...
Given a 21 month extension likely leads to EUref2 and a Remain option he might find it
The party has form under The JC when it comes to data. I emailed THE PARTY to register for information on several leadership candidates in 2015. And then for several years received emails from Jeremy for Labour Ltd (Trading as Momemtum) who claimed I had given permission. The Corbyn machine simply stole data on a wholesale basis (as revealed in that Dispatches undercover film a couple of years ago).
So now they have a problem. They need someone seen as serious and competent so they hire a former Lord Chancellor. His first step is to highlight that Formby is either a liar or incompetent when it comes to GDPR - either way she shows how she is a political stooge first and Chief Exec leading a party organisation second.
Falconer then goes straight for the jugular - show me the emails. Except that they can't. Sounds like a decent number will freely interchange Labour/Momentum/Unite email addresses for Labour business (after all, whats the difference...?). He will push. They will show him a few. Then he will quit.
Which leads to the purpose of the exercise. Hire a leading Blairite. Have him dig a little, make him quit claiming sklulduggery, then denounce him and anyone who ever voted Labour as a Tory stooge spreading LIES and FAKE NEWS about the Beloved JC. Falconer has been set up as Proof that there is a dirty Smear Campaign against poor The Jeremy proving once and for all that a deep level network of influence is at work. I have no doubt that Lord Levy's name will be thrown around on Facebook as it always is when cultists try and show they aren't anti-semitic.
That's not fair. You have just revealed @TheJezziah's next five posts.
Well done @Black_Rook - good to see someone calling out those homophobic parents in Birmingham and the damning silence that has followed. Hat tip also to @Cyclefree for being supportive
I guess the problem with gay people is that we’re stuck on about 2% of the population. Ken Livingstone and George Galloway made the simple calculation that they can appeal to a much larger (and growing) constituency by throwing us under the bus. Literally no MPs have spoken up for gay people on this issue - just a load of handwaving and saying that ‘consultation’ is required.
No consultation is required at all. If these parents want to take their children out of school because it’s teaching their children that gay people are normal and that there is no need to hate or fear them, they can pay for their own schools.
I know nothing about the story except your post.
IMV no school - private or not - should be teaching that gay people should be hated or feared.
"Homosexuality is illegal in the likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia and Sudan"
Not just illegal - but subject to the death penalty in those nations and another 8.
The death penalty even remains on the statute books for Muslim gay men in Qatar - yet not a peep of protest in that regard about them staging the 2022 world cup. Yet people are arguing for a boycott of this year's Eurovision as its being held in Israel!
I used to go on a football forum and there were plenty of complaints when Qatar won the bid. Admittedly many of those were around loads of other issues but the countries attitude towards women and homosexuals were brought up in discussions.
If you swapped the events around I could still see complaints both ways but football is so widely loved I couldn't see a boycott happening or having much effect. Much like with the Qatar world cup I wouldn't be surprised to see less travelling from England but this will be for a host of reasons which homophobia would just be one.
Travelling to the WC in Qatar is going to be a nightmare, unless you’re a huge fan of taking a seven-hour football charter flight, followed by a bus from the airport to the stadium, watch the match then head straight back to the airport for a seven-hour flight home.
There’s barely going to be enough hotel rooms on the island for the teams and officials, and they’ve fallen out with all their neighbours.
Even before all these neighbour issues really flared up it was going to involve a lot of travel for fans and teams but the whole thing has gone to a ridiculous level.
The main argument in favour I remember at the time which I could get on board with was spreading the tournament around the globe and (depending on how you divide the world) there was some argument for one in the Middle East. Although if we are going to ignore politics (democracy, gay rights etc.) then Iran or Saudi Arabia (if we exclude Turkey as European) seem more obvious choices as actual footballing countries who have been somewhat competitive at football for a while and I assume far more of a domestic football league than Qatar. Also they actually have the basic capacity to hold the event in terms of infrastructure and stadiums*.
*Iran's wouldn't be great but I'm sure the Saudi's would spend huge amounts making some lovely ones.
Admittedly they didn't actually bid but an ME world cup should have waited for a more realistic bidder.
The Saudis could use the stadiums for beheadings after the tournament has finished
Well done @Black_Rook - good to see someone calling out those homophobic parents in Birmingham and the damning silence that has followed. Hat tip also to @Cyclefree for being supportive
I guess the problem with gay people is that we’re stuck on about 2% of the population. Ken Livingstone and George Galloway made the simple calculation that they can appeal to a much larger (and growing) constituency by throwing us under the bus. Literally no MPs have spoken up for gay people on this issue - just a load of handwaving and saying that ‘consultation’ is required.
No consultation is required at all. If these parents want to take their children out of school because it’s teaching their children that gay people are normal and that there is no need to hate or fear them, they can pay for their own schools.
I know nothing about the story except your post.
IMV no school - private or not - should be teaching that gay people should be hated or feared.
Or, critically, treated with anything other than equality and respect.
The party has form under The JC when it comes to data. I emailed THE PARTY to register for information on several leadership candidates in 2015. And then for several years received emails from Jeremy for Labour Ltd (Trading as Momemtum) who claimed I had given permission. The Corbyn machine simply stole data on a wholesale basis (as revealed in that Dispatches undercover film a couple of years ago).
So now they have a problem. They need someone seen as serious and competent so they hire a former Lord Chancellor. His first step is to highlight that Formby is either a liar or incompetent when it comes to GDPR - either way she shows how she is a political stooge first and Chief Exec leading a party organisation second.
Falconer then goes straight for the jugular - show me the emails. Except that they can't. Sounds like a decent number will freely interchange Labour/Momentum/Unite email addresses for Labour business (after all, whats the difference...?). He will push. They will show him a few. Then he will quit.
Which leads to the purpose of the exercise. Hire a leading Blairite. Have him dig a little, make him quit claiming sklulduggery, then denounce him and anyone who ever voted Labour as a Tory stooge spreading LIES and FAKE NEWS about the Beloved JC. Falconer has been set up as Proof that there is a dirty Smear Campaign against poor The Jeremy proving once and for all that a deep level network of influence is at work. I have no doubt that Lord Levy's name will be thrown around on Facebook as it always is when cultists try and show they aren't anti-semitic.
If Lord Falconer quits, his reasons for doing so will give just the coverage that many, many MPs and councillors will need to depart. If that includes Watson, I can believe it will be enough to make them the official Opposition. Question then becomes: who do the unions fund?
I very much doubt that.
It is still the case that it is easier to wait for Corby to lose control of the party (as he will, because the pendulum always swings back) than to set up a completely new party.
I always wondered what I would have done if I had been born and lived in East Germany (or another Soviet satellite) in the 1970s. Would I have tried to be a hero and cross the Wall?
The correct thing to do (we can now see) is to have waited. In 1989, the GDR collapsed.
The TIGgers have scaled the Wall. Good luck to them, but most likely they will be shot down by the border guards or bleed to death in the barbed wire.
The best thing for Labour moderates to do is wait. The Wall will come down anyhow.
If there is a GE this year (not unlikely), they may not have to wait too long.
Do the partisan Democrats want to maximise feeling good about their candidate or maximise their chances of winning? Do they accept that the two are not the same thing?
There are already 14 declared runners, with more potentially to come. Plenty of time for trading, I'd have thought.
The party has form under The JC when it comes to data. I emailed THE PARTY to register for information on several leadership candidates in 2015. And then for several years received emails from Jeremy for Labour Ltd (Trading as Momemtum) who claimed I had given permission. The Corbyn machine simply stole data on a wholesale basis (as revealed in that Dispatches undercover film a couple of years ago).
So now they have a problem. They need someone seen as serious and competent so they hire a former Lord Chancellor. His first step is to highlight that Formby is either a liar or incompetent when it comes to GDPR - either way she shows how she is a political stooge first and Chief Exec leading a party organisation second.
Falconer then goes straight for the jugular - show me the emails. Except that they can't. Sounds like a decent number will freely interchange Labour/Momentum/Unite email addresses for Labour business (after all, whats the difference...?). He will push. They will show him a few. Then he will quit.
Which leads to the purpose of the exercise. y's name will be thrown around on Facebook as it always is when cultists try and show they aren't anti-semitic.
If Lord Falconer quits, his reasons for doing so will give just the coverage that many, many MPs and councillors will need to depart. If that includes Watson, I can believe it will be enough to make them the official Opposition. Question then becomes: who do the unions fund?
I very much doubt that.
It is still the case that it is easier to wait for Corby to lose control of the party (as he will, because the pendulum always swings back) than to set up a completely new party.
I always wondered what I would have done if I had been born and lived in East Germany (or another Soviet satellite) in the 1970s. Would I have tried to be a hero and cross the Wall?
The correct thing to do (we can now see) is to have waited. In 1989, the GDR collapsed.
The TIGgers have scaled the Wall. Good luck to them, but most likely they will be shot down by the border guards or bleed to death in the barbed wire.
The best thing for Labour moderates to do is wait. The Wall will come down anyhow.
If there is a GE this year (not unlikely), they may not have to wait too long.
It took Labour 13 years for centrists to regain control of the party after Foot was elected in 1980 and Militant gained influence
Interesting Rachel Sylvester article in the Times on May’s rather unedifying treatment of Amber Rudd.
A minister who was and is an ultra loyalist, despite her differences on policy, is being treated as as traitor within.
This is why there exists Cabinet Collective Responsibility in Cabinet over matters of policy.
Rudd is free to disagree and make her point to the PM privately, but if she wants to openly disagree in public with the government line then she should resign to do so.
Interesting Rachel Sylvester article in the Times on May’s rather unedifying treatment of Amber Rudd.
A minister who was and is an ultra loyalist, despite her differences on policy, is being treated as as traitor within.
This is why there exists Cabinet Collective Responsibility in Cabinet over matters of policy.
Rudd is free to disagree and make her point to the PM privately, but if she wants to openly disagree in public with the government line then she should resign to do so.
I really doubt that Theresa May wants three Cabinet ministers to resign over her Brexit policy just now.
It took Labour 13 years for centrists to regain control of the party after Foot was elected in 1980 and Militant gained influence
No, it took 3 years. Foot was elected leader in 1980, he left office in 1983, to be succeeded by Kinnock.
It took the SDP much longer to break the mould. In fact we're still waiting.
(I note it is acknowledged Tories who are so enthusiastic about the Labour moderates splitting. I wonder why ... I wonder why)
Kinnock was not a centrist but a leftwinger, Hattersley was the centrist candidate in 1983 albeit he became Kinnock's Deputy and it took years for Kinnock to drive out Militant.
It was not until John Smith beat Brian Gould for the leadership and introduced OMOV that centrists took control again of course driving home that control when Blair won in 1994 after Smith's death and removed Clause 4 from the party's constitution. Plus in many respects New Labour was the child of the SDP
Interesting Rachel Sylvester article in the Times on May’s rather unedifying treatment of Amber Rudd.
A minister who was and is an ultra loyalist, despite her differences on policy, is being treated as as traitor within.
This is why there exists Cabinet Collective Responsibility in Cabinet over matters of policy.
Rudd is free to disagree and make her point to the PM privately, but if she wants to openly disagree in public with the government line then she should resign to do so.
I really doubt that Theresa May wants three Cabinet ministers to resign over her Brexit policy just now.
Indeed not, but right now they’re inside the tent and pissing in.
I’m pretty sure that at almost any other time, such ministers would have had a call from No 10 reminding them of collective responsibility. It’s shows the tightrope that the PM is walking, that she’s unable to have them resign.
Comments
The Cameron Years. Political columnist and broadcaster Steve Richards presents the concluding part of a series looking back on David Cameron's dramatic years in power and exploring his legacy.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09kxt2g
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09ly26m
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09ntss5
Either homosexuality is acceptable, or it is not.
You seem to be suggesting that it's OK, so long as you don't tell anyone you're gay.
If you disapprove of homosexuality, go campaign to get it criminalised. If you fail, well bad luck.
So a candidate polling 10% isn't always going to come out with zero, but depending how lumpy their support is, they'd have to be very lucky to get anything near 10%.
You cause enough controversy on here my friend
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1102710071295967232?s=20
As for the UK, again there are some holdouts, but generally the situation is totally unrecognisable from where it was a decade ago, never mind centuries. The Chief Rabbi last year produced a guide on how to deal with a lot of the more common situations in schools - link below, if anyone's interested - and it was (to my relief) extremely well received and generally recognised as a huge and important step forward.
In short, I don't believe you'd find any moral value or belief in the mainstream UK Jewish community that could be described as anathema to current Western attitudes.
https://chiefrabbi.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/The-Wellbeing-of-LGBT-Pupils-A-Guide-for-Orthodox-Jewish-Schools.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unregistered_cohabitation_in_Israel
I find it hard to believe that a chat show host who has Hollywood and other celebs on hasn't interviewed plenty of stupid people in his/her time?
"Homosexuality is fully legal in Israel and Israel also has civil partnerships
I'm not sure about the latter. I think they will recognise civil marriages if performed abroad, but there is a lot of resistance to the idea of introducing them internally"
Israel recognises same sex marriages from abroad and allows common law marriages (aka civil unions) which give pretty much the same legal rights as marriage - the only nation in the whole of Asia that grants that right nationwide according to this analysis. Cambodia, Japan and Taiwan allow civil unions in some regions/cities but not nationwide. The Phillipines under Duerte - who favours same sex marriage now is moving towards legalising same sex marriage and Thailand is considering it but that is as far as it goes it seems.
Bearing in mind 60% of the world's population lives in Asia that is rather depressing. But Israel gets zero credit for being the most LGBT friendly nation in the entire continent.!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Asia
You cannot "promote" homosexuality - that shows a massive misunderstanding of what it is to be a homosexual.
So keep you ignorance to yourself. I sure as hell will not tolerate it.
Incidentally, doesn't that epithet apply to Andy Dick, the man who gave cocaine to a recovering addict who went on to shoot her husband dead, then groped Ivanka Trump and got thrown off a talk show.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Dick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj1LcU07FMA
There’s barely going to be enough hotel rooms on the island for the teams and officials, and they’ve fallen out with all their neighbours.
The main argument in favour I remember at the time which I could get on board with was spreading the tournament around the globe and (depending on how you divide the world) there was some argument for one in the Middle East. Although if we are going to ignore politics (democracy, gay rights etc.) then Iran or Saudi Arabia (if we exclude Turkey as European) seem more obvious choices as actual footballing countries who have been somewhat competitive at football for a while and I assume far more of a domestic football league than Qatar. Also they actually have the basic capacity to hold the event in terms of infrastructure and stadiums*.
*Iran's wouldn't be great but I'm sure the Saudi's would spend huge amounts making some lovely ones.
Admittedly they didn't actually bid but an ME world cup should have waited for a more realistic bidder.
Whilst that's very good, and I agree in general, the situation with the Beth Din and divorce is in some cases messy and nasty.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-jewish-orthodox-councils-institutionalising-marital-captivity-and-upholding-discriminatory-a6803256.html
I expect TheJezziah to be along any moment to say that I'm anti-Semitic for saying this...
So that's RE off the syllabus then.....
but no.....
‘Up to the end of this term, we will not be delivering any No Outsiders lessons in our long term year curriculum plan, as this half term has already been blocked for religious education (RE).
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6771317/Primary-school-AXES-anti-homophobia-lessons-protests-Muslim-parents.html
Dec 2020 at 19 on BFEx still.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40743946
Backed him, but just at 81.
Worrying times. Will my 250/1 tip on Verstappen be toppled? [I'd probably start adding a 'within 2 weeks' caveat to any bragging
So now they have a problem. They need someone seen as serious and competent so they hire a former Lord Chancellor. His first step is to highlight that Formby is either a liar or incompetent when it comes to GDPR - either way she shows how she is a political stooge first and Chief Exec leading a party organisation second.
Falconer then goes straight for the jugular - show me the emails. Except that they can't. Sounds like a decent number will freely interchange Labour/Momentum/Unite email addresses for Labour business (after all, whats the difference...?). He will push. They will show him a few. Then he will quit.
Which leads to the purpose of the exercise. Hire a leading Blairite. Have him dig a little, make him quit claiming sklulduggery, then denounce him and anyone who ever voted Labour as a Tory stooge spreading LIES and FAKE NEWS about the Beloved JC. Falconer has been set up as Proof that there is a dirty Smear Campaign against poor The Jeremy proving once and for all that a deep level network of influence is at work. I have no doubt that Lord Levy's name will be thrown around on Facebook as it always is when cultists try and show they aren't anti-semitic.
It's odd to think back at all the controversies: from things like gay rights, to female CofE priests. People declared disaster at every move, but the changes have hardly broken society.
Labour MP Vernon Coaker said Cobra, the government's emergency committee, should meet to respond to the "national crisis"."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47415673
When will we learn? We test them for nationality on obscure pieces of British history and landmarks and don't test them on the respect, decency and tolerance that are central to our own culture. The school was completely wrong to cave in.
Hickenlooper is running as a bipartisan (as RCS1k pointed out, he considered a joint ticket with Kasich at one point). Not only isn’t there a market for that at the moment in the Democratic party, it is not even a coherent strategy for governing in the imaginary situation where he actually got elected.
The Republican party in Washington went full on scorched earth during Obama’s presidency, and there are very few indeed in either House or Senate whose first principle in dealing with a Democratic administration is not legislative sabotage. Democrats have responded accordingly, and that is not going to change until after Trump becomes an unpleasant memory.
1) Basically everyone agrees with the premise that everything that can be done in these situations, should be done.
2) An inordinate amount of work has been put in over the years (and this is a known problem dating back centuries) in order to make them as few and far between as possible.
They are still, as you say, horrendous when they do occur.
A minister who was and is an ultra loyalist, despite her differences on policy, is being treated as as traitor within.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz1rhLnCrJQ
If you learn the pronunciation - Boodijij - you forget how to spell it.
As the article says, the suggestion of increased stop-and-search seems a possible approach - but to be effective, that would require targeting and effective punishments for carrying weapons. And I bet Coaker would be one of the people screaming about that.
But we also need to tackle the culture that tells young people it's okay - or even cool - to carry a knife.
He's right on one other thing - it's not just an urban problem. Knife crime occurs in small towns, or even villages, as well.
So come on Coaker, give us suggestions of what you'd support.
The irony in the placard comes from the fact that the parents do actually indoctrinate their kids.
IMV no school - private or not - should be teaching that gay people should be hated or feared.
It is still the case that it is easier to wait for Corby to lose control of the party (as he will, because the pendulum always swings back) than to set up a completely new party.
I always wondered what I would have done if I had been born and lived in East Germany (or another Soviet satellite) in the 1970s. Would I have tried to be a hero and cross the Wall?
The correct thing to do (we can now see) is to have waited. In 1989, the GDR collapsed.
The TIGgers have scaled the Wall. Good luck to them, but most likely they will be shot down by the border guards or bleed to death in the barbed wire.
The best thing for Labour moderates to do is wait. The Wall will come down anyhow.
If there is a GE this year (not unlikely), they may not have to wait too long.
There are already 14 declared runners, with more potentially to come. Plenty of time for trading, I'd have thought.
Rudd is free to disagree and make her point to the PM privately, but if she wants to openly disagree in public with the government line then she should resign to do so.
It took the SDP much longer to break the mould. In fact we're still waiting.
(I note it is acknowledged Tories who are so enthusiastic about the Labour moderates splitting. I wonder why ... I wonder why)
https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1102846853979299840
It was not until John Smith beat Brian Gould for the leadership and introduced OMOV that centrists took control again of course driving home that control when Blair won in 1994 after Smith's death and removed Clause 4 from the party's constitution. Plus in many respects New Labour was the child of the SDP
I’m pretty sure that at almost any other time, such ministers would have had a call from No 10 reminding them of collective responsibility. It’s shows the tightrope that the PM is walking, that she’s unable to have them resign.