Wingnut in chief question... Should his twitter say Labour MP on it still? Given past performance would suggest that won't be changed even if he's expelled.....
So far this is going sub optimally from Modi's point of view. 40 Indian soldiers killed by a suicide bomber so he retaliates with air strikes on their base but loses 2 fighters and has a pilot captured. It all looks a bit weak and with an election coming up the temptation to ramp this up a bit will be serious.
Imran Khan has shown that he can still deliver a bone crushing yorker but would be well advised to quit while he was ahead by releasing the pilot.
Continuing the cricketing theme Newsthump has the following 'Duckworth-Lewis Amendment will see UK enter permanent customs union if it’s raining on March 29th'
That makes more sense than what is actually happening...
Continuing the cricketing theme Newsthump has the following 'Duckworth-Lewis Amendment will see UK enter permanent customs union if it’s raining on March 29th'
That makes more sense than what is actually happening...
We need to threaten MPs with the heavy roller......
So far this is going sub optimally from Modi's point of view. 40 Indian soldiers killed by a suicide bomber so he retaliates with air strikes on their base but loses 2 fighters and has a pilot captured. It all looks a bit weak and with an election coming up the temptation to ramp this up a bit will be serious.
Imran Khan has shown that he can still deliver a bone crushing yorker but would be well advised to quit while he was ahead by releasing the pilot.
Isn't parading the pilot on TV against the Geneva Convention?
"Good piece on how Remain supporters should behave IF there's a new referendum:"
A nice idea, and the total lack of which contributed to the Remain defeat. But you and he are wasting your time.
Arrogance has been the watchword for many Remainers, and that won't change, They are better, cleverer and possess superb judgement. Why can't those stupid Leavers see it?
Obviously they have to shout louder and insult them more to make these Leaver fools understand. These people shouldn't be allowed to vote. Democracy has failed here so we must try again.
The LDs were saying this the day after the referendum.
Wingnut in chief question... Should his twitter say Labour MP on it still? Given past performance would suggest that won't be changed even if he's expelled.....
He would no doubt point out that he's more loyal to "Labour" than most of his once and possibly future colleagues.
"Good piece on how Remain supporters should behave IF there's a new referendum:"
A nice idea, and the total lack of which contributed to the Remain defeat. But you and he are wasting your time.
Arrogance has been the watchword for many Remainers, and that won't change, They are better, cleverer and possess superb judgement. Why can't those stupid Leavers see it?
Obviously they have to shout louder and insult them more to make these Leaver fools understand. These people shouldn't be allowed to vote. Democracy has failed here so we must try again.
The LDs were saying this the day after the referendum.
I wish you well, but don't hold your breath.
Arrogance is the watchword of Leavers.
We hold all the cards, sunlit uplands, easiest trade deal in history, German car manufacturers will insist we get a good deal.
They're disaster centrists, they realise the only way they get people to vote for centrism is in a no deal scenario where their opposition take the blame for no deal.
Brilliantly cynical, I just wonder whether people will fall for it.
*In a sort of a roundabout way by failing to oppose it.
The biggest beneficiaries of a damaging No Deal would be TIG yes but TIG really want EUref2 with a Remain option so voted down Labour's Customs Union plan to ensure Labour then shifted to back EUref2. Of course the greater the chance of EUref2 the greater the chance of the ERG and Labour MPs voting for May's Deal and the Deal getting through
So far this is going sub optimally from Modi's point of view. 40 Indian soldiers killed by a suicide bomber so he retaliates with air strikes on their base but loses 2 fighters and has a pilot captured. It all looks a bit weak and with an election coming up the temptation to ramp this up a bit will be serious.
Imran Khan has shown that he can still deliver a bone crushing yorker but would be well advised to quit while he was ahead by releasing the pilot.
I think a few more tactical strikes on terror camps with far, far more firepower will be the answer. And strikes on any anti-air installations firing back at the jets.
I think by parading the pilot it's backed Modi into a corner. I don't see that he has a choice now. Especially so close to an election.
"Good piece on how Remain supporters should behave IF there's a new referendum:"
A nice idea, and the total lack of which contributed to the Remain defeat. But you and he are wasting your time.
Arrogance has been the watchword for many Remainers, and that won't change, They are better, cleverer and possess superb judgement. Why can't those stupid Leavers see it?
Obviously they have to shout louder and insult them more to make these Leaver fools understand. These people shouldn't be allowed to vote. Democracy has failed here so we must try again.
The LDs were saying this the day after the referendum.
I wish you well, but don't hold your breath.
Arrogance is the watchword of Leavers.
We hold all the cards, sunlit uplands, easiest trade deal in history, German car manufacturers will insist we get a good deal.
I could go on.
T'was arrogance cost Remainers the Referendum in the first place.
"Good piece on how Remain supporters should behave IF there's a new referendum:"
A nice idea, and the total lack of which contributed to the Remain defeat. But you and he are wasting your time.
Arrogance has been the watchword for many Remainers, and that won't change, They are better, cleverer and possess superb judgement. Why can't those stupid Leavers see it?
Obviously they have to shout louder and insult them more to make these Leaver fools understand. These people shouldn't be allowed to vote. Democracy has failed here so we must try again.
The LDs were saying this the day after the referendum.
I wish you well, but don't hold your breath.
Arrogance is the watchword of Leavers.
We hold all the cards, sunlit uplands, easiest trade deal in history, German car manufacturers will insist we get a good deal.
You should shout about the achievements of the EU.
"We stopped several world wars. Herr Juncker personally intervened to prevent the Cuban Missile Crisis erupting in 1962, We will get three square meals a day as long as we behave."
You can bowl shit and take wickets - Ian Botham was famous/ notorious for it.
snip
FPT
This continues for thirty-something balls, or until the fielding team have run out of drinks. I have been in games where we recovered from 110-0 off 10 to reach 130-7 off 20, and where we have collapsed from 57-6 to 150-8 in the same time. In each of the last 10 overs of these innings the MCC coaching manual stayed resolutely shut.
I love idiot-level cricket and if anyone has a spare spot in an office weeknight team in the Bristol area this summer I'm almost certainly available.
And I should have added that this is a great bit of writing!
Very kind - I chuckled away writing it. Can I recommend Rain Men (Marcus Berkmann) and Balham to Bollywood (Chris England) if you'd like about 400 pages of that sort of thing done properly?
I am irresistibly reminded of the time, a few years ago, that the landlord of the pub where I drank decided to get a cricket team together and challenge other local pubs, drinking clubs and the like. My brief and inglorious playing days were long behind me, so I volunteered to act as umpire. Lasted a couple of seasons and three or four matches. One highlight was giving out the star...... in his mind anyway....... batsman of our opponents 'caught behind' off the bowling of a twelve year old lad, who looked as though he was going to be good one day.One would have expected someone representing a pub called The Cricketers to have a better idea of sportsmanship! However as I walked home, it being June in England, there was a storm and I took refuge in that pub. I was welcomed with 'It's the ump. Come on ump, no, put your money away!'
There's something about cricket!
It was bowled of you to go into that pub after that. But what a way to welcome you!
So far this is going sub optimally from Modi's point of view. 40 Indian soldiers killed by a suicide bomber so he retaliates with air strikes on their base but loses 2 fighters and has a pilot captured. It all looks a bit weak and with an election coming up the temptation to ramp this up a bit will be serious.
Imran Khan has shown that he can still deliver a bone crushing yorker but would be well advised to quit while he was ahead by releasing the pilot.
I think a few more tactical strikes on terror camps with far, far more firepower will be the answer. And strikes on any anti-air installations firing back at the jets.
I think by parading the pilot it's backed Modi into a corner. I don't see that he has a choice now. Especially so close to an election.
Personally, as someone actually born in India, I feel that both Pakistan AND India are behaving like a couple of spoilt children over Kashmir - albeit nuclear-armed spoilt children!
Neither side should deserve to control Kashmir (as it was in 1947), and it should be neutral territory.
What's the number one item on the prohibited items list at customs when you land at an Indian airport?
Drugs? Porn? Firearms?
No, it's maps that "fail to correctly depict India's external borders", which is code for showing Kashmir divided at the Line of Control with Pakistan. Go figure!
So far this is going sub optimally from Modi's point of view. 40 Indian soldiers killed by a suicide bomber so he retaliates with air strikes on their base but loses 2 fighters and has a pilot captured. It all looks a bit weak and with an election coming up the temptation to ramp this up a bit will be serious.
Imran Khan has shown that he can still deliver a bone crushing yorker but would be well advised to quit while he was ahead by releasing the pilot.
Isn't parading the pilot on TV against the Geneva Convention?
"Good piece on how Remain supporters should behave IF there's a new referendum:"
A nice idea, and the total lack of which contributed to the Remain defeat. But you and he are wasting your time.
Arrogance has been the watchword for many Remainers, and that won't change, They are better, cleverer and possess superb judgement. Why can't those stupid Leavers see it?
Obviously they have to shout louder and insult them more to make these Leaver fools understand. These people shouldn't be allowed to vote. Democracy has failed here so we must try again.
The LDs were saying this the day after the referendum.
I wish you well, but don't hold your breath.
Arrogance is the watchword of Leavers.
We hold all the cards, sunlit uplands, easiest trade deal in history, German car manufacturers will insist we get a good deal.
You can bowl shit and take wickets - Ian Botham was famous/ notorious for it.
snip
FPT
This continues for thirty-something balls, or until the fielding team have run out of drinks. I have been in games where we recovered from 110-0 off 10 to reach 130-7 off 20, and where we have collapsed from 57-6 to 150-8 in the same time. In each of the last 10 overs of these innings the MCC coaching manual stayed resolutely shut.
I love idiot-level cricket and if anyone has a spare spot in an office weeknight team in the Bristol area this summer I'm almost certainly available.
And I should have added that this is a great bit of writing!
Very kind - I chuckled away writing it. Can I recommend Rain Men (Marcus Berkmann) and Balham to Bollywood (Chris England) if you'd like about 400 pages of that sort of thing done properly?
I am irresistibly reminded of the time, a few years ago, that the landlord of the pub where I drank decided to get a cricket team together and challenge other local pubs, drinking clubs and the like. My brief and inglorious playing days were long behind me, so I volunteered to act as umpire. Lasted a couple of seasons and three or four matches. One highlight was giving out the star...... in his mind anyway....... batsman of our opponents 'caught behind' off the bowling of a twelve year old lad, who looked as though he was going to be good one day.One would have expected someone representing a pub called The Cricketers to have a better idea of sportsmanship! However as I walked home, it being June in England, there was a storm and I took refuge in that pub. I was welcomed with 'It's the ump. Come on ump, no, put your money away!'
There's something about cricket!
It was bowled of you to go into that pub after that. But what a way to welcome you!
He might have been in a sticky wicket.
But that’s a silly point
Seams to me like that puts a totally different spin on things.
Personally, as someone actually born in India, I feel that both Pakistan AND India are behaving like a couple of spoilt children over Kashmir - albeit nuclear-armed spoilt children!
Neither side should deserve to control Kashmir (as it was in 1947), and it should be neutral territory.
What's the number one item on the prohibited items list at customs when you land at an Indian airport?
Drugs? Porn? Firearms?
No, it's maps that "fail to correctly depict India's external borders", which is code for showing Kashmir divided at the Line of Control with Pakistan. Go figure!
Good to read a serious post from you, Sunil. Nothing wrong with the jokes but this was really interesting.
When I was a Nottingham area MP, there was a big local ex-Kashmiri community. They made a point of not coming to blows, even when India and Pakistan were at war (they simply agreed to let the former home countries fight it out, no point in extending it to Nottingham), but what felt like a significant minority wanted Kashmiri self-rule instead of "having two big countries squabble over us like clingy parents after the kid grows up".
"Good piece on how Remain supporters should behave IF there's a new referendum:"
A nice idea, and the total lack of which contributed to the Remain defeat. But you and he are wasting your time.
Arrogance has been the watchword for many Remainers, and that won't change, They are better, cleverer and possess superb judgement. Why can't those stupid Leavers see it?
Obviously they have to shout louder and insult them more to make these Leaver fools understand. These people shouldn't be allowed to vote. Democracy has failed here so we must try again.
The LDs were saying this the day after the referendum.
I wish you well, but don't hold your breath.
Arrogance is the watchword of Leavers.
We hold all the cards, sunlit uplands, easiest trade deal in history, German car manufacturers will insist we get a good deal.
You can bowl shit and take wickets - Ian Botham was famous/ notorious for it.
snip
FPT
This continues for thirty-something balls, or until the fielding team have run out of drinks. I have been in games where we recovered from 110-0 off 10 to reach 130-7 off 20, and where we have collapsed from 57-6 to 150-8 in the same time. In each of the last 10 overs of these innings the MCC coaching manual stayed resolutely shut.
I love idiot-level cricket and if anyone has a spare spot in an office weeknight team in the Bristol area this summer I'm almost certainly available.
And I should have added that this is a great bit of writing!
Very kind - I chuckled away writing it. Can I recommend Rain Men (Marcus Berkmann) and Balham to Bollywood (Chris England) if you'd like about 400 pages of that sort of thing done properly?
I am irresistibly reminded of the time, a few years ago, that the landlord of the pub where I drank decided to get a cricket team together and challenge other local pubs, drinking clubs and the like. My brief and inglorious playing days were long behind me, so I volunteered to act as umpire. Lasted a couple of seasons and three or four matches. One highlight was giving out the star...... in his mind anyway....... batsman of our opponents 'caught behind' off the bowling of a twelve year old lad, who looked as though he was going to be good one day.One would have expected someone representing a pub called The Cricketers to have a better idea of sportsmanship! However as I walked home, it being June in England, there was a storm and I took refuge in that pub. I was welcomed with 'It's the ump. Come on ump, no, put your money away!'
There's something about cricket!
It was bowled of you to go into that pub after that. But what a way to welcome you!
He might have been in a sticky wicket.
But that’s a silly point
Seams to me like that puts a totally different spin on things.
I love the way team jezza always tries to wash their hands on these things, technically right or not, proper leadership on clear cut cases like red ken would be out in front telling everybody this stuff is unacceptable. Instead he disappears down the allotment and leaves a lackey to say process process process.
Personally, as someone actually born in India, I feel that both Pakistan AND India are behaving like a couple of spoilt children over Kashmir - albeit nuclear-armed spoilt children!
Neither side should deserve to control Kashmir (as it was in 1947), and it should be neutral territory.
What's the number one item on the prohibited items list at customs when you land at an Indian airport?
Drugs? Porn? Firearms?
No, it's maps that "fail to correctly depict India's external borders", which is code for showing Kashmir divided at the Line of Control with Pakistan. Go figure!
Good to read a serious post from you, Sunil. Nothing wrong with the jokes but this was really interesting.
When I was a Nottingham area MP, there was a big local ex-Kashmiri community. They made a point of not coming to blows, even when India and Pakistan were at war (they simply agreed to let the former home countries fight it out, no point in extending it to Nottingham), but what felt like a significant minority wanted Kashmiri self-rule instead of "having two big countries squabble over us like clingy parents after the kid grows up".
To clarify, is "Kashmiri self rule" the same as Sunil's "neutral territory"? They sound potentially very different in practice.
I have no direct knowledge of the area but it does seem likely to me that large chunks of the population would be deeply unhappy in either case.
Corbyn personally vetoed the suspension of that rat fuck Williamson. Only backed down whena volley of complaints hit him such as the letter from the chair of that Tory front organisation Tribune.
I am considering my options.
The situation for Labour reminds me of one of those coin fall machines in an arcade. Every new drip of anti-semitism or TIG news is expected to cause a problem but nothing major happens. I think the public are aware of the issues in Labour and see the hypocrisy. The problem will be when they see that also apply to the Brexit position. Then there will be real trust issues and the coins will fall.
Personally, as someone actually born in India, I feel that both Pakistan AND India are behaving like a couple of spoilt children over Kashmir - albeit nuclear-armed spoilt children!
Neither side should deserve to control Kashmir (as it was in 1947), and it should be neutral territory.
What's the number one item on the prohibited items list at customs when you land at an Indian airport?
Drugs? Porn? Firearms?
No, it's maps that "fail to correctly depict India's external borders", which is code for showing Kashmir divided at the Line of Control with Pakistan. Go figure!
Good to read a serious post from you, Sunil. Nothing wrong with the jokes but this was really interesting.
When I was a Nottingham area MP, there was a big local ex-Kashmiri community. They made a point of not coming to blows, even when India and Pakistan were at war (they simply agreed to let the former home countries fight it out, no point in extending it to Nottingham), but what felt like a significant minority wanted Kashmiri self-rule instead of "having two big countries squabble over us like clingy parents after the kid grows up".
To clarify, is "Kashmiri self rule" the same as Sunil's "neutral territory"? They sound potentially very different in practice.
I have no direct knowledge of the area but it does seem likely to me that large chunks of the population would be deeply unhappy in either case.
Don't forget China's interests in Kashmir, either ...
On the Today programme this morning they were uncritically quoting Trump as saying that Cohen had not accused him of collusion with Russia, but this tweet implies collusion with Russia. Am I missing something here or is the BBC being too deferential again?
Personally, as someone actually born in India, I feel that both Pakistan AND India are behaving like a couple of spoilt children over Kashmir - albeit nuclear-armed spoilt children!
Neither side should deserve to control Kashmir (as it was in 1947), and it should be neutral territory.
What's the number one item on the prohibited items list at customs when you land at an Indian airport?
Drugs? Porn? Firearms?
No, it's maps that "fail to correctly depict India's external borders", which is code for showing Kashmir divided at the Line of Control with Pakistan. Go figure!
Good to read a serious post from you, Sunil. Nothing wrong with the jokes but this was really interesting.
When I was a Nottingham area MP, there was a big local ex-Kashmiri community. They made a point of not coming to blows, even when India and Pakistan were at war (they simply agreed to let the former home countries fight it out, no point in extending it to Nottingham), but what felt like a significant minority wanted Kashmiri self-rule instead of "having two big countries squabble over us like clingy parents after the kid grows up".
To clarify, is "Kashmiri self rule" the same as Sunil's "neutral territory"? They sound potentially very different in practice.
I have no direct knowledge of the area but it does seem likely to me that large chunks of the population would be deeply unhappy in either case.
Don't forget China's interests in Kashmir, either ...
Fortunately, the bits of Kashmir under Chinese control (Trans-Karakoram Tract and the Aksai Chin area) are very thinly populated.
The situation for Labour reminds me of one of those coin fall machines in an arcade. Every new drip of anti-semitism or TIG news is expected to cause a problem but nothing major happens. I think the public are aware of the issues in Labour and see the hypocrisy. The problem will be when they see that also apply to the Brexit position. Then there will be real trust issues and the coins will fall.
The AS is bad news but I do not see anything untoward about Labour's Brexit position. Put their own proposal forward and if rejected support REF2. Is this not a reasonable stance for the opposition to take?
Personally, as someone actually born in India, I feel that both Pakistan AND India are behaving like a couple of spoilt children over Kashmir - albeit nuclear-armed spoilt children!
Neither side should deserve to control Kashmir (as it was in 1947), and it should be neutral territory.
What's the number one item on the prohibited items list at customs when you land at an Indian airport?
Drugs? Porn? Firearms?
No, it's maps that "fail to correctly depict India's external borders", which is code for showing Kashmir divided at the Line of Control with Pakistan. Go figure!
Good to read a serious post from you, Sunil. Nothing wrong with the jokes but this was really interesting.
When I was a Nottingham area MP, there was a big local ex-Kashmiri community. They made a point of not coming to blows, even when India and Pakistan were at war (they simply agreed to let the former home countries fight it out, no point in extending it to Nottingham), but what felt like a significant minority wanted Kashmiri self-rule instead of "having two big countries squabble over us like clingy parents after the kid grows up".
To clarify, is "Kashmiri self rule" the same as Sunil's "neutral territory"? They sound potentially very different in practice.
I have no direct knowledge of the area but it does seem likely to me that large chunks of the population would be deeply unhappy in either case.
Don't forget China's interests in Kashmir, either ...
Fortunately, the bits of Kashmir under Chinese control (Trans-Karakoram Tract and the Aksai Chin area) are very thinly populated.
Personally, as someone actually born in India, I feel that both Pakistan AND India are behaving like a couple of spoilt children over Kashmir - albeit nuclear-armed spoilt children!
Neither side should deserve to control Kashmir (as it was in 1947), and it should be neutral territory.
What's the number one item on the prohibited items list at customs when you land at an Indian airport?
Drugs? Porn? Firearms?
No, it's maps that "fail to correctly depict India's external borders", which is code for showing Kashmir divided at the Line of Control with Pakistan. Go figure!
Good to read a serious post from you, Sunil. Nothing wrong with the jokes but this was really interesting.
When I was a Nottingham area MP, there was a big local ex-Kashmiri community. They made a point of not coming to blows, even when India and Pakistan were at war (they simply agreed to let the former home countries fight it out, no point in extending it to Nottingham), but what felt like a significant minority wanted Kashmiri self-rule instead of "having two big countries squabble over us like clingy parents after the kid grows up".
To clarify, is "Kashmiri self rule" the same as Sunil's "neutral territory"? They sound potentially very different in practice.
I have no direct knowledge of the area but it does seem likely to me that large chunks of the population would be deeply unhappy in either case.
Don't forget China's interests in Kashmir, either ...
Fortunately, the bits of Kashmir under Chinese control (Trans-Karakoram Tract and the Aksai Chin area) are very thinly populated.
Indeed, but AIUI they have interests in a larger area.
"Good piece on how Remain supporters should behave IF there's a new referendum:"
A nice idea, and the total lack of which contributed to the Remain defeat. But you and he are wasting your time.
Arrogance has been the watchword for many Remainers, and that won't change, They are better, cleverer and possess superb judgement. Why can't those stupid Leavers see it?
Obviously they have to shout louder and insult them more to make these Leaver fools understand. These people shouldn't be allowed to vote. Democracy has failed here so we must try again.
The LDs were saying this the day after the referendum.
I wish you well, but don't hold your breath.
There is plenty of abuse on both sides. Spend half an hour looking at the comments on Con Home, the Spectator or Daily Mail.
There are also leavers, including a couple on here, who revel in playing up their victimhood and outrage.
For instance how many remainers have actually said we must "shout louder and insult them more to make these leaver fools understand".
How many remainers have actually said "These people shouldn't be allowed to vote"?
Yet you trot it out as characteristic of remainers.
The situation for Labour reminds me of one of those coin fall machines in an arcade. Every new drip of anti-semitism or TIG news is expected to cause a problem but nothing major happens. I think the public are aware of the issues in Labour and see the hypocrisy. The problem will be when they see that also apply to the Brexit position. Then there will be real trust issues and the coins will fall.
The AS is bad news but I do not see anything untoward about Labour's Brexit position. Put their own proposal forward and if rejected support REF2. Is this not a reasonable stance for the opposition to take?
It is dishonest in so far as Corbyn is trying to be all things to all parts of his party
The question required is would labour support a leave - remain referendum and campaign to remain
A good test for Corbyn will come when the MV comes back to the HOC and the amendment to accept TM deal subject to ratification by a referendum is supported by him and whipped by the party
Anything else is betrayal to remainers but of course the idea of a referendum at all is a betrayal of his mps in leave voting areas
"Good piece on how Remain supporters should behave IF there's a new referendum:"
A nice idea, and the total lack of which contributed to the Remain defeat. But you and he are wasting your time.
Arrogance has been the watchword for many Remainers, and that won't change, They are better, cleverer and possess superb judgement. Why can't those stupid Leavers see it?
Obviously they have to shout louder and insult them more to make these Leaver fools understand. These people shouldn't be allowed to vote. Democracy has failed here so we must try again.
The LDs were saying this the day after the referendum.
I wish you well, but don't hold your breath.
There is plenty of abuse on both sides. Spend half an hour looking at the comments on Con Home, the Spectator or Daily Mail.
There are also leavers, including a couple on here, who revel in playing up their victimhood and outrage.
For instance how many remainers have actually said we must "shout louder and insult them more to make these leaver fools understand".
How many remainers have actually said "These people shouldn't be allowed to vote"?
Yet you trot it out as characteristic of remainers.
This underlies the problem we'll face whatever happens. Backwoods Leavers will, in the event of Remaining get very angry and abusive. Backwood Remainers, as I would be if I was bit younger, would settle down to active plotting to get us back in. Both will be posting on opposition media with monotonous regularity pointing out the disastrous effects of whichever decision we eventually arrive at. Younger and more foolish elements will be breaking the odd window or abusing people in the street.
It is dishonest in so far as Corbyn is trying to be all things to all parts of his party
The question required is would labour support a leave - remain referendum and campaign to remain
A good test for Corbyn will come when the MV comes back to the HOC and the amendment to accept TM deal subject to ratification by a referendum is supported by him and whipped by the party
Anything else is betrayal to remainers but of course the idea of a referendum at all is a betrayal of his mps in leave voting areas
Well Labour have a problem in that a majority of their MPs and members would like REF2 but much of their core blue collar vote in electorally important parts of the country are for Leave and might see that as a betrayal. Is it dishonest to try to hold that line as long as possible without alienating one side? Not for me. It's good party management. Ditto with May. She is accused regularly of deviously stringing both sides of her party along. I don't buy that either. It's party management and is necessary.
Course, what the Labour leadership really want is a general election. Trouble is, many of their MPs are more concerned about remaining in the EU than getting a Labour government. It really is a fascinating situation.
"Good piece on how Remain supporters should behave IF there's a new referendum:"
A nice idea, and the total lack of which contributed to the Remain defeat. But you and he are wasting your time.
Arrogance has been the watchword for many Remainers, and that won't change, They are better, cleverer and possess superb judgement. Why can't those stupid Leavers see it?
Obviously they have to shout louder and insult them more to make these Leaver fools understand. These people shouldn't be allowed to vote. Democracy has failed here so we must try again.
The LDs were saying this the day after the referendum.
I wish you well, but don't hold your breath.
There is plenty of abuse on both sides. Spend half an hour looking at the comments on Con Home, the Spectator or Daily Mail.
There are also leavers, including a couple on here, who revel in playing up their victimhood and outrage.
For instance how many remainers have actually said we must "shout louder and insult them more to make these leaver fools understand".
How many remainers have actually said "These people shouldn't be allowed to vote"?
Yet you trot it out as characteristic of remainers.
As far as I am aware, on this board, no Leaver has espoused such positions, If they have, then I condemn them. (The Daily Mail comments section may be another matter).
However, let us not be antifrank. Leavers have been regularly abused as xenophobes on pb.
It is striking that Chi Onwurah (a prominent Remainer) has found that the most abusive people to her over the last few months have been Remainers.
My own opinion is another vote would be disastrous in terms of national civility (extremists on both sides would go absolutely berserk).
We need to find a position -- associate member or semi-detached member or whatever -- that most of the country can live with. Unfortunately, another divisive referendum is not the way to do that.
It is dishonest in so far as Corbyn is trying to be all things to all parts of his party
The question required is would labour support a leave - remain referendum and campaign to remain
A good test for Corbyn will come when the MV comes back to the HOC and the amendment to accept TM deal subject to ratification by a referendum is supported by him and whipped by the party
Anything else is betrayal to remainers but of course the idea of a referendum at all is a betrayal of his mps in leave voting areas
Well Labour have a problem in that a majority of their MPs and members would like REF2 but much of their core blue collar vote in electorally important parts of the country are for Leave and might see that as a betrayal. Is it dishonest to try to hold that line as long as possible without alienating one side? Not for me. It's good party management. Ditto with May. She is accused regularly of deviously stringing both sides of her party along. I don't buy that either. It's party management and is necessary.
Course, what the Labour leadership really want is a general election. Trouble is, many of their MPs are more concerned about remaining in the EU than getting a Labour government. It really is a fascinating situation.
The dishonesty is by saying he will have a referendum but making conditions that cannot be met including renegotiating his deal and putting that in a referendum. That is unicorns and will not happen
Corbyn may want an election but TIGs and the lib dems will not support a GE as they want to establish themselves in the political narrative
A GE would almost certainly see Corbyn lose as he has become very toxic to so many, including the majority of his mps who look as if they are forming themselves into an anti Corbyn group in labour under Tom Watson
"Good piece on how Remain supporters should behave IF there's a new referendum:"
A nice idea, and the total lack of which contributed to the Remain defeat. But you and he are wasting your time.
Arrogance has been the watchword for many Remainers, and that won't change, They are better, cleverer and possess superb judgement. Why can't those stupid Leavers see it?
Obviously they have to shout louder and insult them more to make these Leaver fools understand. These people shouldn't be allowed to vote. Democracy has failed here so we must try again.
The LDs were saying this the day after the referendum.
I wish you well, but don't hold your breath.
There is plenty of abuse on both sides. Spend half an hour looking at the comments on Con Home, the Spectator or Daily Mail.
There are also leavers, including a couple on here, who revel in playing up their victimhood and outrage.
For instance how many remainers have actually said we must "shout louder and insult them more to make these leaver fools understand".
How many remainers have actually said "These people shouldn't be allowed to vote"?
Yet you trot it out as characteristic of remainers.
As far as I am aware, on this board, no Leaver has espoused such positions, If they have, then I condemn them. (The Daily Mail comments section may be another matter).
However, let us not be antifrank. Leavers have been regularly abused as xenophobes on pb.
It is striking that Chi Onwurah (a prominent Remainer) has found that the most abusive people to her over the last few months have been Remainers.
My own opinion is another vote would be disastrous in terms of national civility (extremists on both sides would go absolutely berserk).
We need to find a position -- associate member or semi-detached member or whatever -- that most of the country can live with. Unfortunately, another divisive referendum is not the way to do that.
To clarify, is "Kashmiri self rule" the same as Sunil's "neutral territory"? They sound potentially very different in practice.
I have no direct knowledge of the area but it does seem likely to me that large chunks of the population would be deeply unhappy in either case.
What they meant was full independence as a separate country. It was still a minority view, but younger people especially felt they'd had enough of two other countries squabbling over who got to rule them. I have no idea how widespread that view is, either in the diaspora or in the area itself, but it seemed to me quite a logical position after decades of tension and intermittent actual war.
Comments
Imran Khan has shown that he can still deliver a bone crushing yorker but would be well advised to quit while he was ahead by releasing the pilot.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/28/peoples-vote-campaign-remain-leave-voters
Send Imran Khan to the Hague.
That's big of you, Chi.....
"Good piece on how Remain supporters should behave IF there's a new referendum:"
A nice idea, and the total lack of which contributed to the Remain defeat. But you and he are wasting your time.
Arrogance has been the watchword for many Remainers, and that won't change, They are better, cleverer and possess superb judgement. Why can't those stupid Leavers see it?
Obviously they have to shout louder and insult them more to make these Leaver fools understand. These people shouldn't be allowed to vote. Democracy has failed here so we must try again.
The LDs were saying this the day after the referendum.
I wish you well, but don't hold your breath.
We hold all the cards, sunlit uplands, easiest trade deal in history, German car manufacturers will insist we get a good deal.
I could go on.
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1101038427439546369
I think by parading the pilot it's backed Modi into a corner. I don't see that he has a choice now. Especially so close to an election.
You make my point.
One argument is optimistic … a better future lies ahead outside the EU.
The other is pessimistic and personal … you're all going to die, and you'll deserve it, you thick, racist bastards.
And I was pessimistic about Liverpool last night. Three goals out.
You should shout about the achievements of the EU.
"We stopped several world wars. Herr Juncker personally intervened to prevent the Cuban Missile Crisis erupting in 1962, We will get three square meals a day as long as we behave."
Hmm … perhaps not.
But that’s a silly point
Neither side should deserve to control Kashmir (as it was in 1947), and it should be neutral territory.
What's the number one item on the prohibited items list at customs when you land at an Indian airport?
Drugs?
Porn?
Firearms?
No, it's maps that "fail to correctly depict India's external borders", which is code for showing Kashmir divided at the Line of Control with Pakistan. Go figure!
#fakenews
But, it does start with a cracking first sentence from Chi Onwurah:
"The most virulent abuse I have received in the last few months has come from remainers, even though I campaigned strongly for remain."
Not Leavers. Not Anti-Semites. Not Momentum. Not Corbynistas.
Remainers ...
Abusive Remainers ... we know their kind so well on pb.com
Am I pitching this right?
When I was a Nottingham area MP, there was a big local ex-Kashmiri community. They made a point of not coming to blows, even when India and Pakistan were at war (they simply agreed to let the former home countries fight it out, no point in extending it to Nottingham), but what felt like a significant minority wanted Kashmiri self-rule instead of "having two big countries squabble over us like clingy parents after the kid grows up".
I have no direct knowledge of the area but it does seem likely to me that large chunks of the population would be deeply unhappy in either case.
On the Today programme this morning they were uncritically quoting Trump as saying that Cohen had not accused him of collusion with Russia, but this tweet implies collusion with Russia. Am I missing something here or is the BBC being too deferential again?
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kashmir_map_big.jpg
There are also leavers, including a couple on here, who revel in playing up their victimhood and outrage.
For instance how many remainers have actually said we must "shout louder and insult them more to make these leaver fools understand".
How many remainers have actually said "These people shouldn't be allowed to vote"?
Yet you trot it out as characteristic of remainers.
The question required is would labour support a leave - remain referendum and campaign to remain
A good test for Corbyn will come when the MV comes back to the HOC and the amendment to accept TM deal subject to ratification by a referendum is supported by him and whipped by the party
Anything else is betrayal to remainers but of course the idea of a referendum at all is a betrayal of his mps in leave voting areas
https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1101050131904954368
Both will be posting on opposition media with monotonous regularity pointing out the disastrous effects of whichever decision we eventually arrive at. Younger and more foolish elements will be breaking the odd window or abusing people in the street.
https://twitter.com/ezralevant/status/1100940359553699841
I just saw the ‘highligts’, it was one of the best one day cricket matches of the last few years.
Course, what the Labour leadership really want is a general election. Trouble is, many of their MPs are more concerned about remaining in the EU than getting a Labour government. It really is a fascinating situation.
However, let us not be antifrank. Leavers have been regularly abused as xenophobes on pb.
It is striking that Chi Onwurah (a prominent Remainer) has found that the most abusive people to her over the last few months have been Remainers.
My own opinion is another vote would be disastrous in terms of national civility (extremists on both sides would go absolutely berserk).
We need to find a position -- associate member or semi-detached member or whatever -- that most of the country can live with. Unfortunately, another divisive referendum is not the way to do that.
Corbyn may want an election but TIGs and the lib dems will not support a GE as they want to establish themselves in the political narrative
A GE would almost certainly see Corbyn lose as he has become very toxic to so many, including the majority of his mps who look as if they are forming themselves into an anti Corbyn group in labour under Tom Watson