If they don't like life in Cabinet, then May should sack them.....
Idiot post of the day and so soon
But my point is, these aren't ordinary times! Any PM with any clout would sack at least one, which would usually be enough to cause the others to STFU. May is probably already regretting bringing Rudd back into Cabinet.
There is only one strategy in Downing Street right now. Run the clock down, get the EU to blink at the prospect of No Deal, go back to the Commons with Hotel California Brexit removed - and tell them its the best it's gonna get, guys. Take it - or face the wrath of the 17.4m.
But when your own hand-picked team are sat next to you screaming "WE CAN'T POSSIBLY NO DEAL!!!!!!!", it rather makes your strategy hard to take seriously. May's Strategy* at least requires Cabinet buy-in. If it hasn't got that, then either change the strategy - or change the Cabinet.
If they don't like life in Cabinet, then May should sack them.....
Idiot post of the day and so soon
But my point is, these aren't ordinary times! Any PM with any clout would sack at least one, which would usually be enough to cause the others to STFU. May is probably already regretting bringing Rudd back into Cabinet.
There is only one strategy in Downing Street right now. Run the clock down, get the EU to blink at the prospect of No Deal, go back to the Commons with Hotel California Brexit removed - and tell them its the best it's gonna get, guys. Take it - or face the wrath of the 17.4m.
But when your own hand-picked team are sat next to you screaming "WE CAN'T POSSIBLY NO DEAL!!!!!!!", it rather makes your strategy hard to take seriously. May's Strategy* at least requires Cabinet buy-in. If it hasn't got that, then either change the strategy - or change the Cabinet.
If they don't like life in Cabinet, then May should sack them.....
Idiot post of the day and so soon
But my point is, these aren't ordinary times! Any PM with any clout would sack at least one, which would usually be enough to cause the others to STFU. May is probably already regretting bringing Rudd back into Cabinet.
There is only one strategy in Downing Street right now. Run the clock down, get the EU to blink at the prospect of No Deal, go back to the Commons with Hotel California Brexit removed - and tell them its the best it's gonna get, guys. Take it - or face the wrath of the 17.4m.
But when your own hand-picked team are sat next to you screaming "WE CAN'T POSSIBLY NO DEAL!!!!!!!", it rather makes your strategy hard to take seriously. May's Strategy* at least requires Cabinet buy-in. If it hasn't got that, then either change the strategy - or change the Cabinet.
*other terms for it are available
Sacking Cabinet ministers really isn’t an option for the Prime Minister just now.
I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.
Charlie Kennedy would clean up right now. Exasperatingly, the LibDems themselves might have a chance if they would only dump Low-Voltage Cable and elect a social liberal with a fresh face, which means Layla Moran. But TIG are in danger of offering reheated Blairism to a world that has moved on.
Totally agree on Charles Kennedy. For me one of the tragedies of the last 20 years was that he could not conquer his demons. As I have frequently pointed out to my former fellow Labour Party supporters Kennedy’s LibDems opposed the Iraq War without feeling the necessity to share platforms with Hamas in doing so. Desperation and the hope that a Kennedy could emerge once again led me to join the LDs in September. They ask you who you want as the image on your membership card and I asked for Charles Kennedy. They sent me fracking Nick Clegg instead. Not a great start.
I joined the LDs not because I’m a centrist - I hate the phrase - but because I believe in liberal democracy. I agree that the LD party is moribund, without wanting to be ageist, I’m 45 and their leader was in the year ABOVE my Dad at Nunthorpe Grammar School, Dad retired 12 years ago. Nevertheless the Labour Party, which I supported from school, has become the preserve of David Icke-lite conspiracy theorising anti-Semitic cranks, and the Conservative Party overrun by xenophobic nativists. Both are inimical to a functioning liberal democracy and, love it or hate it, those are the values that built our civilisation. So, any port in a storm and all that. I’m hoping that it will reform with the TIGs in a fresh start.
There are several delicate moving parts to liberal democracy and elections are only one of them. What the referendum has done is allow cover to those who want to ride roughshod over the judicial parts, the bits that protect those who do not follow the majority line, in favour of a fetishisation of the democratic parts. We can see this in Javid’s foisting of Bangladeshi nationality on the woman in Syria this week. He’s set himself up for a popular pleasing of the crowd in a bun fight with the judiciary who have no choice but to uphold the law that he may well have flouted. Yes, 8 out of 10 people in the country agree with him, a similar proportion no doubt who felt that Joanna Yeates was murdered by her landlord.
I’m not a centrist. I believe in liberal democracy. That, for most of human history, has been a pretty radical idea. Look around you, it’s a mess at times but we are damn lucky to be here, our values built that. We should own them.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn. She'll probably re-admit Jenny Tonge to the LDs.
Anyway, it's a bloody gorgeous day out there, so I'm off into the garden. I'll be back for the England game. Perhaps by then May will have sacked half her Cabinet and 46 Labour MPs will have gone off to the TIGs in a strop....
Chris Williamson can't help looking like an animated corpse, but he doesn't help matters by stating what is clearly wrong.
I don't believe Jezza is actively antisemitic, but there are elements in his entourage who are, and being actively pro-Palestinian, he often doesn't see the problem.
The EU never make up their mind until there's a looming deadline, so the extension attempt is clearly an excuse to kick the can further down the road to facilitate a referendum re-run or a revoke by continuing the campaign of boring the electorate to death and hoping they'll just forget about it.
I'm no fan of politicians, but this has been an unholy exhibition of dishonesty by MPs. Only a few come out and state "I hate the idea of leaving the EU, so I don't care how the referendum went. I will work actively to get my own way."
There's a majority in Parliament for staying. We've always known that. The lies began at day one. Saying "We respect the referendum result but" … followed by … "we must ensure (in coded words) that we never leave" has fooled no one.
As a consequence, their stock is lower than it's ever been. Worse, it takes the electorate for fools. They deserve the voters' contempt.
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Leavers can’t say they weren’t warned. The abject failure even to attempt to reach out to Remain voters continues to be the most mystifying inaction by the victors. So they are in serious danger of losing the peace.
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I am not sure that I share your optimism, but at the very least I want Brexit to be the funeral pyre of the Conservative party, the ultimate Pyrrhic victory.
Totally agree on Charles Kennedy. For me one of the tragedies of the last 20 years was that he could not conquer his demons. As I have frequently pointed out to my former fellow Labour Party supporters Kennedy’s LibDems opposed the Iraq War without feeling the necessity to share platforms with Hamas in doing so. Desperation and the hope that a Kennedy could emerge once again led me to join the LDs in September. They ask you who you want as the image on your membership card and I asked for Charles Kennedy. They sent me fracking Nick Clegg instead. Not a great start.
I joined the LDs not because I’m a centrist - I hate the phrase - but because I believe in liberal democracy. I agree that the LD party is moribund, without wanting to be ageist, I’m 45 and their leader was in the year ABOVE my Dad at Nunthorpe Grammar School, Dad retired 12 years ago. Nevertheless the Labour Party, which I supported from school, has become the preserve of David Icke-lite conspiracy theorising anti-Semitic cranks, and the Conservative Party overrun by xenophobic nativists. Both are inimical to a functioning liberal democracy and, love it or hate it, those are the values that built our civilisation. So, any port in a storm and all that. I’m hoping that it will reform with the TIGs in a fresh start.
There are several delicate moving parts to liberal democracy and elections are only one of them. What the referendum has done is allow cover to those who want to ride roughshod over the judicial parts, the bits that protect those who do not follow the majority line, in favour of a fetishisation of the democratic parts. We can see this in Javid’s foisting of Bangladeshi nationality on the woman in Syria this week. He’s set himself up for a popular pleasing of the crowd in a bun fight with the judiciary who have no choice but to uphold the law that he may well have flouted. Yes, 8 out of 10 people in the country agree with him, a similar proportion no doubt who felt that Joanna Yeates was murdered by her landlord.
I’m not a centrist. I believe in liberal democracy. That, for most of human history, has been a pretty radical idea. Look around you, it’s a mess at times but we are damn lucky to be here, our values built that. We should own them.
A fine post.
I don’t wildly object to the description ‘centrist’, though. It’s an imprecise term in much the same way thatt the idea of political left and right is imprecise, and doesn’t capture a great deal of political reality, as the Brexit debacale has messily demonstrated. All it really means is a rejection of extremism, rather than the average of two forms of it.
As a defining term, I agree it is deeply inadequate.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn. She'll probably re-admit Jenny Tonge to the LDs.
I'm no fan of politicians, but this has been an unholy exhibition of dishonesty by MPs. Only a few come out and state "I hate the idea of leaving the EU, so I don't care how the referendum went. I will work actively to get my own way."
There's a majority in Parliament for staying. We've always known that. The lies began at day one. Saying "We respect the referendum result but" … followed by … "we must ensure (in coded words) that we never leave" has fooled no one.
As a consequence, their stock is lower than it's ever been. Worse, it takes the electorate for fools. They deserve the voters' contempt.
I think it’s more the case that the majority of MPs, including those who campaigned for Brexit, didn’t really understand the implications of it. They’re comfortable with the idea of leaving the EU, but the reality doesn’t match their idea of it.
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Leavers can’t say they weren’t warned. The abject failure even to attempt to reach out to Remain voters continues to be the most mystifying inaction by the victors. So they are in serious danger of losing the peace.
I think that there will incalculable damage to our democracy because of this. Whilst I agree with you that much of the damage by the morons in the ERG in particular was self inflicted the complete dishonesty and hypocrisy of those that got re-elected to implement the vote and then did everything in their power to thwart it disgusts me. The Tiggers are a good start since none of them will be in the next Parliament but there are dozens more who need to go.
If they don't like life in Cabinet, then May should sack them.....
Idiot post of the day and so soon
But my point is, these aren't ordinary times! Any PM with any clout would sack at least one, which would usually be enough to cause the others to STFU. May is probably already regretting bringing Rudd back into Cabinet.
There is only one strategy in Downing Street right now. Run the clock down, get the EU to blink at the prospect of No Deal, go back to the Commons with Hotel California Brexit removed - and tell them its the best it's gonna get, guys. Take it - or face the wrath of the 17.4m.
But when your own hand-picked team are sat next to you screaming "WE CAN'T POSSIBLY NO DEAL!!!!!!!", it rather makes your strategy hard to take seriously. May's Strategy* at least requires Cabinet buy-in. If it hasn't got that, then either change the strategy - or change the Cabinet.
*other terms for it are available
The strategy also requires the support of her party, and as was made clear, there are around a hundred backcenchers who also reject it unequivocally.
I think it’s more the case that the majority of MPs, including those who campaigned for Brexit, didn’t really understand the implications of it. They’re comfortable with the idea of leaving the EU, but the reality doesn’t match their idea of it.
The reality is that the issues of whether, where, how and how far to diverge will in practice dominate British politics for several years. There is no escape from these debates and decisions. You cannot wish them away with displacement activity and obfuscation. Even this week, we have seen two of the most fervent senior advocates of Brexit clash vigorously over what our tariff regime should be in the event of a no-deal Brexit. One of them, Liam Fox backed by Philip Hammond, advocates unilateral tariff eliminations across the board to prioritise consumer interests over producers’.
The other, the environment secretary Michael Gove, advocates the retention of tariff protections for sensitive sectors of agriculture and food production, saying that without them swathes of industry will go out of business. The impacts of certain choices might be radically different for Scotland and Wales compared with the richer southeast. And no one, as far as I can see, is telling us how these tariffs will be applied in Northern Ireland in a no-deal world.
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Leavers can’t say they weren’t warned. The abject failure even to attempt to reach out to Remain voters continues to be the most mystifying inaction by the victors. So they are in serious danger of losing the peace.
I think that there will incalculable damage to our democracy because of this. Whilst I agree with you that much of the damage by the morons in the ERG in particular was self inflicted the complete dishonesty and hypocrisy of those that got re-elected to implement the vote and then did everything in their power to thwart it disgusts me. The Tiggers are a good start since none of them will be in the next Parliament but there are dozens more who need to go.
You’re looking at the wrong culprits. The referendum could and should have been implemented without more than the usual drama. But Leavers chose to make this into a culture war against opponents who had only been narrowly defeated and who retained strategic strength.
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Brexit will happen. There's no coming back from it. But it will not be pretty. The Tories will win the next general election. That will not be pretty either. These next few years are going to be quite a ride. I am just glad we sold our business when we did!
There is only one strategy in Downing Street right now. Run the clock down, get the EU to blink at the prospect of No Deal, go back to the Commons with Hotel California Brexit removed - and tell them its the best it's gonna get, guys. Take it - or face the wrath of the 17.4m.
The EU might do something with the backstop but the UK is going to have give something to get something surely? We can speculate about what juicy morsel they could off to get the EU to fuck over the 26 counties and resile from a unanimous position they have held without wavering for a year...
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Leavers can’t say they weren’t warned. The abject failure even to attempt to reach out to Remain voters continues to be the most mystifying inaction by the victors. So they are in serious danger of losing the peace.
I think that there will incalculable damage to our democracy because of this. Whilst I agree with you that much of the damage by the morons in the ERG in particular was self inflicted the complete dishonesty and hypocrisy of those that got re-elected to implement the vote and then did everything in their power to thwart it disgusts me. The Tiggers are a good start since none of them will be in the next Parliament but there are dozens more who need to go.
Except that you’re unlikely to get a government of leavers, as you appear to wish. It’s not even clear there’s a majority for leave any more.
I don’t take issue with your disgust; it is shared by many on the other side of the argument.
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Leavers can’t say they weren’t warned. The abject failure even to attempt to reach out to Remain voters continues to be the most mystifying inaction by the victors. So they are in serious danger of losing the peace.
I think that there will incalculable damage to our democracy because of this. Whilst I agree with you that much of the damage by the morons in the ERG in particular was self inflicted the complete dishonesty and hypocrisy of those that got re-elected to implement the vote and then did everything in their power to thwart it disgusts me. The Tiggers are a good start since none of them will be in the next Parliament but there are dozens more who need to go.
All Labour, TIG, LibDem, Plaid, Green and SNP MPs were elected on specific commitments not to implement a No Deal Brexit. More than 50% of the electorate backed parties that made this promise.
Can I thank whoever it was who directed us yesterday to Parliament TV and the House of Lords committee taking evidence from Sir Ivan Rogers. (See: Parliament TV, Wednesday 20 February 2019 Meeting started at 3.59pm, ended 5.54pm)
Admittedly it was a long listen but it was instructive and informative if, in some parts, depressing and occasionally very depressing.
He has written some of it up in the Times
https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1099203325755617280 It is hardly surprising that there is still no united government or opposition stance on the best option, and no Commons majority in favour of anything. All the options look most unappealing, whether on political, economic or democratic grounds. In an echo of the referendum campaign, much the easiest option to demolish is the deal on the table: all sides can readily identify what they deplore about it and they do not have to demonstrate that they could negotiate a better option.
The approach taken by No 10 — “it’s my way or the abyss”, coupled with running down the clock — has infuriated all equally, as well as understandably incensing much of the private sector. It has been soothingly assured by government since Christmas 2017 that the no-deal abyss was ruled out, and that a status quo transition until the end of 2020 was “guaranteed”, only to find that all such assurances were given with forked tongue. Business still does not know whether the preferential terms on which it conducts two thirds of all the UK’s global trade will be in place five weeks hence. I can think of no parallel for this in the postwar annals of developed countries.
I read this with interest, and it's very informative, as you say. My eye strayed to Matthew Parris's piece next door, which is a bit more predictable. But what I also noticed about both is the quality of the below-the-line comments - many are as thoughtful, balanced and interesting as the best of PB. I've got a bit tired of The Times since it became more overtly partisan, but the readership is still a class act.
The idea of reaching out to the losers sounds nice, but the reality is different. May I ask you a question? What would you call reaching out?
I suspect it goes a little like this … Obviously we have to keep FOM because it's a big help to industry. And in a similar vein, no one argues about the advantages of a common market. Chuck in the Customs Union because we have ready-made deals and a guarantee of standards.
In there circumstances, we 'd expect to pay for these benefits so we should. Thus, your idea of reaching out is not to leave.
There is only one strategy in Downing Street right now. Run the clock down, get the EU to blink at the prospect of No Deal, go back to the Commons with Hotel California Brexit removed - and tell them its the best it's gonna get, guys. Take it - or face the wrath of the 17.4m.
The EU might do something with the backstop but the UK is going to have give something to get something surely? We can speculate about what juicy morsel they could off to get the EU to fuck over the 26 counties and resile from a unanimous position they have held without wavering for a year...
Its 27 not 28 and most of them down care one jot about the Backstop. They have been firm in their support because they rightly believe it has given the EU a very strong bargaining position and because they have held to the Brussels line of unity. If moving meant making a No Deal less likely and it was a position suggested by Brussels then they would agree without a moments hesitation.
The exception to this will of course be Ireland and perhaps one or two of the bigger countries for their own personal reasons. But actually Ireland is the only one who would have any serious gripes about it.
That is no reason for it to happen but the idea it would be a difficult sell from the EU to the member states is just wrong.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn.
What a stupid thing to say. Listen to her LBC interview.
Over 90% of Palestinians want to see the liquidation of what they perceive as the criminal Zionist entity which has stolen their land.
Yebbut her dad is British! And her mum is a Christian Palestinian in any case!
I know christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, but even so I imagine that Palestinian christians are no keener on having their country occupied than muslim ones?
I think it’s more the case that the majority of MPs, including those who campaigned for Brexit, didn’t really understand the implications of it. They’re comfortable with the idea of leaving the EU, but the reality doesn’t match their idea of it.
The reality is that the issues of whether, where, how and how far to diverge will in practice dominate British politics for several years. There is no escape from these debates and decisions. You cannot wish them away with displacement activity and obfuscation. Even this week, we have seen two of the most fervent senior advocates of Brexit clash vigorously over what our tariff regime should be in the event of a no-deal Brexit. One of them, Liam Fox backed by Philip Hammond, advocates unilateral tariff eliminations across the board to prioritise consumer interests over producers’.
The other, the environment secretary Michael Gove, advocates the retention of tariff protections for sensitive sectors of agriculture and food production, saying that without them swathes of industry will go out of business. The impacts of certain choices might be radically different for Scotland and Wales compared with the richer southeast. And no one, as far as I can see, is telling us how these tariffs will be applied in Northern Ireland in a no-deal world.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn.
What a stupid thing to say. Listen to her LBC interview.
Over 90% of Palestinians want to see the liquidation of what they perceive as the criminal Zionist entity which has stolen their land.
Yebbut her dad is British! And her mum is a Christian Palestinian in any case!
I know christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, but even so I imagine that Palestinian christians are no keener on having their country occupied than muslim ones?
But their current country isn't occupied - Israeli forces pulled out years ago. Or do you mean the actual state of Israel? - if so are you prmoting Palestinian Jihad?
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Leavers can’t say they weren’t warned. The abject failure even to attempt to reach out to Remain voters continues to be the most mystifying inaction by the victors. So they are in serious danger of losing the peace.
I think that there will incalculable damage to our democracy because of this. Whilst I agree with you that much of the damage by the morons in the ERG in particular was self inflicted the complete dishonesty and hypocrisy of those that got re-elected to implement the vote and then did everything in their power to thwart it disgusts me. The Tiggers are a good start since none of them will be in the next Parliament but there are dozens more who need to go.
You’re looking at the wrong culprits. The referendum could and should have been implemented without more than the usual drama. But Leavers chose to make this into a culture war against opponents who had only been narrowly defeated and who retained strategic strength.
Both sides are equally guilty of this and on here you have been one of those who has most prominently promulgated the culture war. Portraying the whole enterprise as racist and xenophobic has been your way to try and reconcile your defeat but it has also made it much less likely that the Leave supporters were ever going to hold put any hands of friendship. It was the same tactic that led to Remain losing in the first place and then never did learn the lesson of that defeat.
I admire your forgiving nature, but MPs knew exactly what they were doing. Being honest would lose them votes immediately and personally, so they lied. Not well, but well enough to preserve some credibility and hopefully to spread the blame.
To some extent, it has worked. Parliament as a whole is held in contempt. If you doubt that, knock on a few doors north of Watford.
The idea of reaching out to the losers sounds nice, but the reality is different. May I ask you a question? What would you call reaching out?
I suspect it goes a little like this … Obviously we have to keep FOM because it's a big help to industry. And in a similar vein, no one argues about the advantages of a common market. Chuck in the Customs Union because we have ready-made deals and a guarantee of standards.
In there circumstances, we 'd expect to pay for these benefits so we should. Thus, your idea of reaching out is not to leave.
If I'm wrong, on which element would you concede?
A deal close to what is on the table fairly reflects the referendum result. It is being destroyed by Leavers rather than Remainers.
At every point Leavers have accused Remainers of treason and betrayal, and being quislings, enemies of the people, saboteurs, mutineers and citizens of nowhere. They have made no attempt to work constructively with former opponents, choosing alternately to berate them for not helping or blaming them for failures when they do try to help.
At some point Leavers will accept that they share the country with people who see the world differently from them and try to work out a means of accommodation with them. But not yet, I fear.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn.
What a stupid thing to say. Listen to her LBC interview.
Over 90% of Palestinians want to see the liquidation of what they perceive as the criminal Zionist entity which has stolen their land.
Yebbut her dad is British! And her mum is a Christian Palestinian in any case!
I know christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, but even so I imagine that Palestinian christians are no keener on having their country occupied than muslim ones?
Why all this baseless speculation and imagining, when you are one click away from the reality?
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Leavers can’t say they weren’t warned. The abject failure even to attempt to reach out to Remain voters continues to be the most mystifying inaction by the victors. So they are in serious danger of losing the peace.
I think that there will incalculable damage to our democracy because of this. Whilst I agree with you that much of the damage by the morons in the ERG in particular was self inflicted the complete dishonesty and hypocrisy of those that got re-elected to implement the vote and then did everything in their power to thwart it disgusts me. The Tiggers are a good start since none of them will be in the next Parliament but there are dozens more who need to go.
You’re looking at the wrong culprits. The referendum could and should have been implemented without more than the usual drama. But Leavers chose to make this into a culture war against opponents who had only been narrowly defeated and who retained strategic strength.
Both sides are equally guilty of this and on here you have been one of those who has most prominently promulgated the culture war. Portraying the whole enterprise as racist and xenophobic has been your way to try and reconcile your defeat but it has also made it much less likely that the Leave supporters were ever going to hold put any hands of friendship. It was the same tactic that led to Remain losing in the first place and then never did learn the lesson of that defeat.
Leavers want the result to stick. This is their problem. It goes with victory.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn.
What a stupid thing to say. Listen to her LBC interview.
Over 90% of Palestinians want to see the liquidation of what they perceive as the criminal Zionist entity which has stolen their land.
Yebbut her dad is British! And her mum is a Christian Palestinian in any case!
I know christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, but even so I imagine that Palestinian christians are no keener on having their country occupied than muslim ones?
The point is, is that Layla is just as BRITISH as you or me. Her dad was a BRITISH diplomat, James Moran.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn.
What a stupid thing to say. Listen to her LBC interview.
Over 90% of Palestinians want to see the liquidation of what they perceive as the criminal Zionist entity which has stolen their land.
Yebbut her dad is British! And her mum is a Christian Palestinian in any case!
I know christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, but even so I imagine that Palestinian christians are no keener on having their country occupied than muslim ones?
But their current country isn't occupied - Israeli forces pulled out years ago. Or do you mean the actual state of Israel? - if so are you prmoting Palestinian Jihad?
I was simply wondering. Do Christian Palestinians have different political opinions to Muslim ones? I can't think of any reason they should.
It's all baked in. Either others don't agree there's s problem or they think they can fix it, and they've heard it all before. Specific names seem to be drying up, so we may only have a handful left if Corbyn makes the right move on brexit.
Chris Williamson on Today says he’s never seen any bullying in the Labour Party and says antisemitism is just an excuse for right wing MPs to damage Corbyn. Car crash interview.
I believe you that was probably bad, but how is that different from his other media appearances?
To come together, you need to respect the opinion of the ones who don't share your outlook.
However, your heartfelt compliments about the characters of Leave Voters have been misinterpreted, I fear. I don't think I've ever criticised you personally, you're entitled to your opinions, and you accepted the referendum result as a true democrat should.
The EU has some good points, but it is a bureaucracy, and a very political one. Mrs May's deal is a basis but remains a curate's egg in that it relies on trusting the EU to disengage. Its record in that respect is extremely poor. Why should it ever do so? is the killer question.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn.
What a stupid thing to say. Listen to her LBC interview.
Over 90% of Palestinians want to see the liquidation of what they perceive as the criminal Zionist entity which has stolen their land.
Yebbut her dad is British! And her mum is a Christian Palestinian in any case!
I know christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, but even so I imagine that Palestinian christians are no keener on having their country occupied than muslim ones?
But their current country isn't occupied - Israeli forces pulled out years ago. Or do you mean the actual state of Israel? - if so are you prmoting Palestinian Jihad?
I was simply wondering. Do Christian Palestinians have different political opinions to Muslim ones? I can't think of any reason they should.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn.
What a stupid thing to say. Listen to her LBC interview.
Over 90% of Palestinians want to see the liquidation of what they perceive as the criminal Zionist entity which has stolen their land.
Yebbut her dad is British! And her mum is a Christian Palestinian in any case!
I know christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, but even so I imagine that Palestinian christians are no keener on having their country occupied than muslim ones?
But their current country isn't occupied - Israeli forces pulled out years ago. Or do you mean the actual state of Israel? - if so are you prmoting Palestinian Jihad?
I was simply wondering. Do Christian Palestinians have different political opinions to Muslim ones? I can't think of any reason they should.
Since even the two-state solution would deliver a Jewish state and a Moslem state, I would have thought it was obvious.
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Leavers can’t say they weren’t warned. The abject failure even to attempt to reach out to Remain voters continues to be the most mystifying inaction by the victors. So they are in serious danger of losing the peace.
I think that there will incalculable damage to our democracy because of this. Whilst I agree with you that much of the damage by the morons in the ERG in particular was self inflicted the complete dishonesty and hypocrisy of those that got re-elected to implement the vote and then did everything in their power to thwart it disgusts me. The Tiggers are a good start since none of them will be in the next Parliament but there are dozens more who need to go.
You’re looking at the wrong culprits. The referendum could and should have been implemented without more than the usual drama. But Leavers chose to make this into a culture war against opponents who had only been narrowly defeated and who retained strategic strength.
We are where we are because Theresa May prioritised positive headlines in the right wing press over building a national consensus for Brexit - and no-one on the Leave side stood up to her. When the enemies of the people were being called out and the citizens of nowhere being attacked they all cheered her on. Likewise, no-one stopped to think through the full implications of the red lines she draw. Those have been the defining post-referendum moments - the ones specifically designed to exclude the 48% from the national conversation.
I suspect the fate of the TIGgers is actually that of Mark Reckless & Douglas Carswell.
Reckless & Carswell want to be taken back into the Tory fold.
The ex-Labour TIGgers want their old Labour party back. They want to return.
Corby perhaps not, but a successor leader may well be more receptive a year or two down the line.
I suspect some of the Labour TIGgers may well still fight the next GE under Labour colours.
Labour, especially in its current form, is rather less forgiving than that.
Probably so, but that the tiggers are emphasising how they haven't changed means they may not have that much fire in their bellies for a fight if their old parties did change a bit more to their liking. And also not much willingness on their part to accept where they are different from other tiggers.
CNN reports that "Hashi Mohamed -- a lawyer who helped write a report into deprivation of nationality with the UK's previous reviewer of terrorism legislation, David Anderson" says that "Javid seemed to be relying on a section in the 2014 Immigration Act, which states that nationality can be revoked if there are "reasonable grounds for believing that the person is able, under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, to become a national of such a country or territory."" A link is provided to Section 66. Which concerns UK citizenship obtained through naturalisation. https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/20/uk/shamima-begum-uk-citizenship-stripped-gbr-intl/index.html
One can only wonder whether the lawyers advising Javid are as clueless as the ones advising the press. It's going to get to the point soon when the barrack-room lawyers will be able to complaint that the professional ones are giving their hobby a bad name.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn.
What a stupid thing to say. Listen to her LBC interview.
Over 90% of Palestinians want to see the liquidation of what they perceive as the criminal Zionist entity which has stolen their land.
Yebbut her dad is British! And her mum is a Christian Palestinian in any case!
I know christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, but even so I imagine that Palestinian christians are no keener on having their country occupied than muslim ones?
But their current country isn't occupied - Israeli forces pulled out years ago. Or do you mean the actual state of Israel? - if so are you prmoting Palestinian Jihad?
I was simply wondering. Do Christian Palestinians have different political opinions to Muslim ones? I can't think of any reason they should.
Do you think Hamas has many Christian followers?
Because Christians in Egypt and Iran are having such a happy time of it, without even thinking about Iraq or Syria.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn.
What a stupid thing to say. Listen to her LBC interview.
Over 90% of Palestinians want to see the liquidation of what they perceive as the criminal Zionist entity which has stolen their land.
Yebbut her dad is British! And her mum is a Christian Palestinian in any case!
I know christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, but even so I imagine that Palestinian christians are no keener on having their country occupied than muslim ones?
But their current country isn't occupied - Israeli forces pulled out years ago. Or do you mean the actual state of Israel? - if so are you prmoting Palestinian Jihad?
I was simply wondering. Do Christian Palestinians have different political opinions to Muslim ones? I can't think of any reason they should.
Do you think Hamas has many Christian followers?
There have been and still are plenty of Christians in the PLO/Fatah. Ashwari and Kamal Nasser for a start.
The idea of reaching out to the losers sounds nice, but the reality is different. May I ask you a question? What would you call reaching out?
I suspect it goes a little like this … Obviously we have to keep FOM because it's a big help to industry. And in a similar vein, no one argues about the advantages of a common market. Chuck in the Customs Union because we have ready-made deals and a guarantee of standards.
In there circumstances, we 'd expect to pay for these benefits so we should. Thus, your idea of reaching out is not to leave.
If I'm wrong, on which element would you concede?
A deal close to what is on the table fairly reflects the referendum result. It is being destroyed by Leavers rather than Remainers.
At every point Leavers have accused Remainers of treason and betrayal, and being quislings, enemies of the people, saboteurs, mutineers and citizens of nowhere. They have made no attempt to work constructively with former opponents, choosing alternately to berate them for not helping or blaming them for failures when they do try to help.
At some point Leavers will accept that they share the country with people who see the world differently from them and try to work out a means of accommodation with them. But not yet, I fear.
you might be on firmer ground if the integrationists had given some thought to the generally sceptical public during the three decades they held the reins. But they didnt and now their appeals just look like sour grapes and whingeing.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn.
What a stupid thing to say. Listen to her LBC interview.
Over 90% of Palestinians want to see the liquidation of what they perceive as the criminal Zionist entity which has stolen their land.
Yebbut her dad is British! And her mum is a Christian Palestinian in any case!
I know christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, but even so I imagine that Palestinian christians are no keener on having their country occupied than muslim ones?
But their current country isn't occupied - Israeli forces pulled out years ago. Or do you mean the actual state of Israel? - if so are you prmoting Palestinian Jihad?
I was simply wondering. Do Christian Palestinians have different political opinions to Muslim ones? I can't think of any reason they should.
I suspect the fate of the TIGgers is actually that of Mark Reckless & Douglas Carswell.
Reckless & Carswell want to be taken back into the Tory fold.
The ex-Labour TIGgers want their old Labour party back. They want to return.
Corby perhaps not, but a successor leader may well be more receptive a year or two down the line.
I suspect some of the Labour TIGgers may well still fight the next GE under Labour colours.
Labour, especially in its current form, is rather less forgiving than that.
Probably so, but that the tiggers are emphasising how they haven't changed means they may not have that much fire in their bellies for a fight if their old parties did change a bit more to their liking. And also not much willingness on their part to accept where they are different from other tiggers.
Oh, I am quite sure the likes of Gapes would love New Labour to magically reappear and take him back in. But it isn't likely to happen within his lifetime. Chuka clearly has a different idea. We'll have to see how it goes, as I said. But the system's mould needs breaking, and now appears to be the best chance for a generation.
I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.
I wish, totally wish, that you were right here. But I don't think you are.
I'm a social democrat. I veer LibDem as the closest inheritors to the SDp. I regularly argue the toss on /r/libdem, advancing the social democrat point of view against "classical liberals". Charles Kennedy was the party leader with whom I most agreed.
But TIG isn't yet the new dawn. Two reasons. First is the obvious one: we're four days in and it's way too early to conclude that a couple of random polls suggest that support for "a new centre party" will translate into people voting for Umunna, Soubry, Shuker and Leslie, only two of whom anyone has ever heard of.
The second reason is more troublesome. I don't think TIG is in step with the times. Their instincts are Blairite-right: expand Heathrow, intervene in far-flung conflicts, encourage private sector involvement in schools and the NHS. That isn't where people are now. Corbyn, like it or not, has shifted the Overton window. TIG is advancing the solutions of 10 years ago.
Charlie Kennedy would clean up right now. Exasperatingly, the LibDems themselves might have a chance if they would only dump Low-Voltage Cable and elect a social liberal with a fresh face, which means Layla Moran. But TIG are in danger of offering reheated Blairism to a world that has moved on.
Lib Dems have no chance , they have shown themselves to be even shallower than the other nasties, happy to drop all principles to get into power. They are at least as bad as the other useless morons.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn.
What a stupid thing to say. Listen to her LBC interview.
Over 90% of Palestinians want to see the liquidation of what they perceive as the criminal Zionist entity which has stolen their land.
Yebbut her dad is British! And her mum is a Christian Palestinian in any case!
I know christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, but even so I imagine that Palestinian christians are no keener on having their country occupied than muslim ones?
But their current country isn't occupied - Israeli forces pulled out years ago. Or do you mean the actual state of Israel? - if so are you prmoting Palestinian Jihad?
I was simply wondering. Do Christian Palestinians have different political opinions to Muslim ones? I can't think of any reason they should.
Since even the two-state solution would deliver a Jewish state and a Moslem state, I would have thought it was obvious.
How many Palestinians are Christians? It seems to be about 10% in most Middle Eastern countries.
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Leavers can’t say they weren’t warned. The abject failure even to attempt to reach out to Remain voters continues to be the most mystifying inaction by the victors. So they are in serious danger of losing the peace.
I think that there will incalculable damage to our democracy because of this. Whilst I agree with you that much of the damage by the morons in the ERG in particular was self inflicted the complete dishonesty and hypocrisy of those that got re-elected to implement the vote and then did everything in their power to thwart it disgusts me. The Tiggers are a good start since none of them will be in the next Parliament but there are dozens more who need to go.
You’re looking at the wrong culprits. The referendum could and should have been implemented without more than the usual drama. But Leavers chose to make this into a culture war against opponents who had only been narrowly defeated and who retained strategic strength.
We are where we are because Theresa May prioritised positive headlines in the right wing press over building a national consensus for Brexit - and no-one on the Leave side stood up to her. When the enemies of the people were being called out and the citizens of nowhere being attacked they all cheered her on. Likewise, no-one stopped to think through the full implications of the red lines she draw. Those have been the defining post-referendum moments - the ones specifically designed to exclude the 48% from the national conversation.
I agree with half of that. But Theresa May’s red lines were in accordance with the referendum campaign fought. I don’t think she could have changed them radically given the campaign Leavers chose to fall in behind.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn.
What a stupid thing to say. Listen to her LBC interview.
Over 90% of Palestinians want to see the liquidation of what they perceive as the criminal Zionist entity which has stolen their land.
Yebbut her dad is British! And her mum is a Christian Palestinian in any case!
I know christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, but even so I imagine that Palestinian christians are no keener on having their country occupied than muslim ones?
But their current country isn't occupied - Israeli forces pulled out years ago. Or do you mean the actual state of Israel? - if so are you prmoting Palestinian Jihad?
I was simply wondering. Do Christian Palestinians have different political opinions to Muslim ones? I can't think of any reason they should.
Since even the two-state solution would deliver a Jewish state and a Moslem state, I would have thought it was obvious.
How many Palestinians are Christians? It seems to be about 10% in most Middle Eastern countries.
6-7% of the global Palestinian population, but most living away from Palestine, where estimates range from 1-2%. It was about 10%, as you say, back before WW2. Go figure.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn.
What a stupid thing to say. Listen to her LBC interview.
Over 90% of Palestinians want to see the liquidation of what they perceive as the criminal Zionist entity which has stolen their land.
Yebbut her dad is British! And her mum is a Christian Palestinian in any case!
I know christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, but even so I imagine that Palestinian christians are no keener on having their country occupied than muslim ones?
But their current country isn't occupied - Israeli forces pulled out years ago. Or do you mean the actual state of Israel? - if so are you prmoting Palestinian Jihad?
I was simply wondering. Do Christian Palestinians have different political opinions to Muslim ones? I can't think of any reason they should.
Arab nationalism was originally dominated by Christians. Now, their position is invidious. Many Muslim Arabs want to drive them out. They would like an independent Palestine, but there's a risk that there would be no place in it for them.
There is only one strategy in Downing Street right now. Run the clock down, get the EU to blink at the prospect of No Deal, go back to the Commons with Hotel California Brexit removed - and tell them its the best it's gonna get, guys. Take it - or face the wrath of the 17.4m.
The EU might do something with the backstop but the UK is going to have give something to get something surely? We can speculate about what juicy morsel they could off to get the EU to fuck over the 26 counties and resile from a unanimous position they have held without wavering for a year...
I find it strange that people still think the EU will blink. Why would they - they want to make sure no other country does anything as insane ever again and backing down isn’t going to help them achieve that.
Theresa May was never the person to be delivering Brexit.
She’s spent two years desperately over compensating for her alleged support for Remain . In her attempt to look like a born again Leaver she put down arbitrary red lines , and has been taken hostage by the ERG .
Instead of bringing the warring sides together she instead has fermented division . As a Remainer I accept our side lost but what I won’t accept is a PM who called us citizens of nowhere , and who called fellow Europeans queue jumpers .
The front bench has been more conciliatory and saddened. This appears not to mark a shift in strategy but a divide (ahem, beyond defecting MPs) between the front bench and some backbenchers
Williamson is a backbencher too. If we're taking one as a sign of on going harshness to potential defectors we have to take the other.
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Leavers can’t say they weren’t warned. The abject failure even to attempt to reach out to Remain voters continues to be the most mystifying inaction by the victors. So they are in serious danger of losing the peace.
I think that there will incalculable damage to our democracy because of this. Whilst I agree with you that much of the damage by the morons in the ERG in particular was self inflicted the complete dishonesty and hypocrisy of those that got re-elected to implement the vote and then did everything in their power to thwart it disgusts me. The Tiggers are a good start since none of them will be in the next Parliament but there are dozens more who need to go.
You’re looking at the wrong culprits. The referendum could and should have been implemented without more than the usual drama. But Leavers chose to make this into a culture war against opponents who had only been narrowly defeated and who retained strategic strength.
Both sides are equally guilty of this and on here you have been one of those who has most prominently promulgated the culture war. Portraying the whole enterprise as racist and xenophobic has been your way to try and reconcile your defeat but it has also made it much less likely that the Leave supporters were ever going to hold put any hands of friendship. It was the same tactic that led to Remain losing in the first place and then never did learn the lesson of that defeat.
Leavers want the result to stick. This is their problem. It goes with victory.
I think leave will have won when we leave the EU, for now it looks a finely balanced game.
Big G Eagles ScottP Scrapheap Stark Topping Felix Richard N (stretch target)
Not me - unless May opts to advocate a No Deal. However, I don't believe that's her strategy.
And me. No deal would make me a TIG
We have been moaning on here for years about how jaded and samey our politicians have become. We hated the blandness. The lack of originality. Now you are all drooling over a bunch of identikit no marks, just because they have one thing you agree with them on. Bless.
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Leavers can’t say they weren’t warned. The abject failure even to attempt to reach out to Remain voters continues to be the most mystifying inaction by the victors. So they are in serious danger of losing the peace.
I think that there will incalculable damage to our democracy because of this. Whilst I agree with you that much of the damage by the morons in the ERG in particular was self inflicted the complete dishonesty and hypocrisy of those that got re-elected to implement the vote and then did everything in their power to thwart it disgusts me. The Tiggers are a good start since none of them will be in the next Parliament but there are dozens more who need to go.
You’re looking at the wrong culprits. The referendum could and should have been implemented without more than the usual drama. But Leavers chose to make this into a culture war against opponents who had only been narrowly defeated and who retained strategic strength.
I msut admit that I didn't get the impression post June 2016 that Remainers were all agog to accept the result.
Big G Eagles ScottP Scrapheap Stark Topping Felix Richard N (stretch target)
Not me - unless May opts to advocate a No Deal. However, I don't believe that's her strategy.
Advocating it isn't, but Given she cannot be so stupid as to think the deal is happening, no deal does appear to be the plan, just not to admit it hence the unicorn chasing.
Theresa May was never the person to be delivering Brexit.
She’s spent two years desperately over compensating for her alleged support for Remain . In her attempt to look like a born again Leaver she put down arbitrary red lines , and has been taken hostage by the ERG .
Instead of bringing the warring sides together she instead has fermented division . As a Remainer I accept our side lost but what I won’t accept is a PM who called us citizens of nowhere , and who called fellow Europeans queue jumpers .
Exactly. She's been very polarising. I started off accepting the result, albeit in the expectation that we'd drift back in again. But the way it has been done has driven me to thinking we just have to cancel the whole sorry episode as soon as possible and start a national programme of 'never talk about this subject ever again' training.
Big G Eagles ScottP Scrapheap Stark Topping Felix Richard N (stretch target)
Not me - unless May opts to advocate a No Deal. However, I don't believe that's her strategy.
And me. No deal would make me a TIG
We have been moaning on here for years about how jaded and samey our politicians have become. We hated the blandness. The lack of originality. Now you are all drooling over a bunch of identikit no marks, just because they have one thing you agree with them on. Bless.
If they don't like life in Cabinet, then May should sack them.....
Idiot post of the day and so soon
But my point is, these aren't ordinary times! Any PM with any clout would sack at least one, which would usually be enough to cause the others to STFU. May is probably already regretting bringing Rudd back into Cabinet.
There is only one strategy in Downing Street right now. Run the clock down, get the EU to blink at the prospect of No Deal, go back to the Commons with Hotel California Brexit removed - and tell them its the best it's gonna get, guys. Take it - or face the wrath of the 17.4m.
But when your own hand-picked team are sat next to you screaming "WE CAN'T POSSIBLY NO DEAL!!!!!!!", it rather makes your strategy hard to take seriously. May's Strategy* at least requires Cabinet buy-in. If it hasn't got that, then either change the strategy - or change the Cabinet.
*other terms for it are available
Sacking Cabinet ministers really isn’t an option for the Prime Minister just now.
No, she has no power, but he's right her strategy makes no sense when clearly her own cabinet don't buy it.
Tories no deal opponents need to vote down their own government to remove May. It's no guarantee of anything positive, but it's clear may won't do, well, anything and will stumble into no deal rather than upset the ERG too much because they are larger than the remainers.
Theresa May was never the person to be delivering Brexit.
She’s spent two years desperately over compensating for her alleged support for Remain . In her attempt to look like a born again Leaver she put down arbitrary red lines , and has been taken hostage by the ERG .
Instead of bringing the warring sides together she instead has fermented division . As a Remainer I accept our side lost but what I won’t accept is a PM who called us citizens of nowhere , and who called fellow Europeans queue jumpers .
I agree, although you could be more charitable and recognise that her background and circumstances of coming to power meant she didn't have the political capital to face down the ERG from the beginning and set a course for a cross-party national interest soft Brexit. Nevertheless that is what a true statesperson would and should have done.
Edit/ or take the Soubry view that she really is hung up on immigration
Labour has always been an alliance of social democrats, methodists and democratic socialists. That’s why the far left always hated it. Now that the far left has been let in and has taken control there is no room for the social democratic or methodist elements. Some will leave, as the TIGs have done, others will be deselected. Some will hold out because their CLPs have not been infiltrated. The future will be determined by what happens when Corbyn steps down some time after Labour loses the next general election. At that point we’ll find out how much of his support was ideological and how much was personal. If someone from the softer left takes over, Labour will probably stay together; if the far left consolidates its hold, then the game will be up.
The current tally of deselection stands at zero.
You can hear McDonnell on Today two years form now. “but we haven’t deselected a single person. It was all just a tigger myth”
The main one I can think of who is actually under threat in their constituency is Kate Hoey.
She tends to be one who when you talk about deselection most parts of the Labour party agree, even heard Paul Mason pushing the case there should be some method for deselection using her as a case when talking with Jess Phillips and the only reaction was a laugh and a comment about her being a bit different. So that isn't one that would make waves.
But we have actually got a few potential Conservative deselections going on, think Nick Boles is under heavy threat and maybe a couple of others?
Edit: Not sure there are many most on the left would actually push against now, Jess Phillips still has plenty of enemies as an example from how she was before GE'17 but she has won people around since then (like me)
She should be under threat , she is totally useless.
The difficulty with Layla Moran will be persuading her to stand. From my soundings she would win comfortably.
If the Palestinian Layla Moran becomes their leader, the LDs will become more anti-Zionist than Corbyn.
What a stupid thing to say. Listen to her LBC interview.
Over 90% of Palestinians want to see the liquidation of what they perceive as the criminal Zionist entity which has stolen their land.
Yebbut her dad is British! And her mum is a Christian Palestinian in any case!
I know christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, but even so I imagine that Palestinian christians are no keener on having their country occupied than muslim ones?
But their current country isn't occupied - Israeli forces pulled out years ago. Or do you mean the actual state of Israel? - if so are you promoting Palestinian Jihad?
Israel has left Gaza, but still controls most of its external borders. However, the whole of Jerusalem has been incorporated into Israel, and there are Israeli settlers in various parts of Judea and Samaria. Both these occupations are regarded as illegal by the international community.
Most Palestinians though regard the whole of the territory between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea as Palestine, and do not accept the existence of Israel per se, as is explicit in the Hamas charter. If this aim was ever achieved, Israel would be eliminated, leading to a second Holocaust, equivalent in scale to that perpetrated in Europe from 1941-5.
I am not promoting anything, merely making clear what the situation is, which is why nearly all Jews are so fearful of and vehemently opposed to anyone or anything with even a tinge of anti-Zionism. That is why Berger and Austin left the Labour party this week, and why a Palestinian leader of the LDs would be regarded with suspicion whatever he/she might state publicly.
Mr. Meeks, mildly amused you consider the leadership of Labour and its approach to things easily replaced and reconcilable, but Boris' anti-business idiocy the beating heart of the Conservatives.
As an aside, what would you make of Gove as a potential successor to May?
The fact that Michael Gove represents the closest thing to someone acceptable to the Conservative membership that would not cause substantial numbers of Leave-sceptic MPs to decamp tells you everything you need to know about the heart of modern Conservatism.
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Leavers can’t say they weren’t warned. The abject failure even to attempt to reach out to Remain voters continues to be the most mystifying inaction by the victors. So they are in serious danger of losing the peace.
I think that there will incalculable damage to our democracy because of this. Whilst I agree with you that much of the damage by the morons in the ERG in particular was self inflicted the complete dishonesty and hypocrisy of those that got re-elected to implement the vote and then did everything in their power to thwart it disgusts me. The Tiggers are a good start since none of them will be in the next Parliament but there are dozens more who need to go.
You’re looking at the wrong culprits. The referendum could and should have been implemented without more than the usual drama. But Leavers chose to make this into a culture war against opponents who had only been narrowly defeated and who retained strategic strength.
We are where we are because Theresa May prioritised positive headlines in the right wing press over building a national consensus for Brexit - and no-one on the Leave side stood up to her. When the enemies of the people were being called out and the citizens of nowhere being attacked they all cheered her on. Likewise, no-one stopped to think through the full implications of the red lines she draw. Those have been the defining post-referendum moments - the ones specifically designed to exclude the 48% from the national conversation.
I agree with half of that. But Theresa May’s red lines were in accordance with the referendum campaign fought. I don’t think she could have changed them radically given the campaign Leavers chose to fall in behind.
I disagree. It would have taken leadership, but that is a different thing. We know that 48% voted to retain freedom of movement, for example. It is hard to believe that at least 10% of the Leave vote could not have lived with it to ensure a smooth Brexit and a good deal for the UK.
Theresa May was never the person to be delivering Brexit.
She’s spent two years desperately over compensating for her alleged support for Remain . In her attempt to look like a born again Leaver she put down arbitrary red lines , and has been taken hostage by the ERG .
Instead of bringing the warring sides together she instead has fermented division . As a Remainer I accept our side lost but what I won’t accept is a PM who called us citizens of nowhere , and who called fellow Europeans queue jumpers .
Exactly. She's been very polarising. I started off accepting the result, albeit in the expectation that we'd drift back in again. But the way it has been done has driven me to thinking we just have to cancel the whole sorry episode as soon as possible and start a national programme of 'never talk about this subject ever again' training.
Agree . And I’ve seen a change in many of my friends . Having gone from accepting the result and just willing to move on they’ now even more anti Brexit than 2016.
I lay much of the blame for that on May and the ERG .
Time is running out for Brexit. The remainer majority in the Commons becomes ever more assertive and unprincipled. No Deal is totally unacceptable but so is any deal that is actually on the table so the only choice is to remain.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Problem is they don't seem to believe that. Then you add in the 'remain better than this deal' crowd. Then add in the hard core unicorn hunters and the no deal backers. They don't think brexit will be stopped.
And how's the tally of former opponents if the deal coming around on it? A handful? Even that? I'm talking confirmed not speculation.
They need 100+.
Brexit is done, it'll just be very noisy before we get there since as you point out with the remainers being assertive no one is getting closer to the deal.
No deal chaos is spooking people to remain not the deal in the commons. They cover themselves by saying it's about extension though.
There is only one strategy in Downing Street right now. Run the clock down, get the EU to blink at the prospect of No Deal, go back to the Commons with Hotel California Brexit removed - and tell them its the best it's gonna get, guys. Take it - or face the wrath of the 17.4m.
The EU might do something with the backstop but the UK is going to have give something to get something surely? We can speculate about what juicy morsel they could off to get the EU to fuck over the 26 counties and resile from a unanimous position they have held without wavering for a year...
Its 27 not 28 and most of them down care one jot about the Backstop. They have been firm in their support because they rightly believe it has given the EU a very strong bargaining position and because they have held to the Brussels line of unity. If moving meant making a No Deal less likely and it was a position suggested by Brussels then they would agree without a moments hesitation.
The exception to this will of course be Ireland and perhaps one or two of the bigger countries for their own personal reasons. But actually Ireland is the only one who would have any serious gripes about it.
That is no reason for it to happen but the idea it would be a difficult sell from the EU to the member states is just wrong.
Will those who consider that Williamson speaks only for himself and represents atypical reactions, the evidence here is that his is part of the mainstream of the extremist left.
I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
The death of Labour is being greatly exaggerated. The Tiggers are not even a party yet and it’s far from clear that they agree on anything except Brexit.
I agree but it may end up the communist party of UK in all but name
I don’t think that Corbyn can survive much longer. Who the next leader is is key. Choose someone sensible and the Tiggers will look pretty pointless.
I wonder if McDonnell will get it.
In a way I honestly think he is more dangerous.
Yes - I mean dangerous.
Mcdon would not run. He’d endorse his protege, RLB. Corb might endorse RLB too. Despite that, if a sink hole appeared on Jez allotment this weekend the membership would elect Thornberry or Starmer.
The canny trick of ref 2 MPs like Thornberry is to get their constituency party to call for it in a vote.
Things are moving. It’s looking like the coming week is the big denouement
I’m not from his wing, nowhere near it, but I can’t help but like and be impressed by MaccyD. He is a convincing performer - it might all be an act, but he plays it well.
I liked the analogy someone made to a detective, was it cyclefree? At first, when you believe he’s straight honest fighting for justice, its good, convincing. When you wake up to the fact his idea of justice is a narrow view he’s always believed in, and will close ranks and spin to look after his own, he comes across as untrustworthy and malicious.
T'was me. McDonnell is like those Met detectives from the 1970's: superficially charming and plausible but underneath it all utterly untrustworthy and quite willing to countenance violence to achieve his aims.
Big G Eagles ScottP Scrapheap Stark Topping Felix Richard N (stretch target)
Not me - unless May opts to advocate a No Deal. However, I don't believe that's her strategy.
And me. No deal would make me a TIG
We have been moaning on here for years about how jaded and samey our politicians have become. We hated the blandness. The lack of originality. Now you are all drooling over a bunch of identikit no marks, just because they have one thing you agree with them on. Bless.
No deal will only happen if ERG win and I cannot be part of something so utterly stupid
Theresa May was never the person to be delivering Brexit.
She’s spent two years desperately over compensating for her alleged support for Remain . In her attempt to look like a born again Leaver she put down arbitrary red lines , and has been taken hostage by the ERG .
Instead of bringing the warring sides together she instead has fermented division . As a Remainer I accept our side lost but what I won’t accept is a PM who called us citizens of nowhere , and who called fellow Europeans queue jumpers .
I agree, although you could be more charitable and recognise that her background and circumstances of coming to power meant she didn't have the political capital to face down the ERG from the beginning and set a course for a cross-party national interest soft Brexit. Nevertheless that is what a true statesperson would and should have done.
Edit/ or take the Soubry view that she really is hung up on immigration
I’d take the Soubry view . Not even the main architects of Vote Leave are anti immigrant they just used it for the campaign .
I visited Leytonstone for the first time in my life last Thursday. I was at a meeting of a support group for survivors of cancer - a fairly elderly group. Afterwards I overheard a discussion of Brexit. It was obviously a group of people who had talked about it before. It sounded like they had lost their enthusiasm for it. Mr Cryer may well simply be reflecting his voters' changing views.
Comments
https://twitter.com/DPGwyther/status/1098955811005652992?s=19
There is only one strategy in Downing Street right now. Run the clock down, get the EU to blink at the prospect of No Deal, go back to the Commons with Hotel California Brexit removed - and tell them its the best it's gonna get, guys. Take it - or face the wrath of the 17.4m.
But when your own hand-picked team are sat next to you screaming "WE CAN'T POSSIBLY NO DEAL!!!!!!!", it rather makes your strategy hard to take seriously. May's Strategy* at least requires Cabinet buy-in. If it hasn't got that, then either change the strategy - or change the Cabinet.
*other terms for it are available
I don't believe Jezza is actively antisemitic, but there are elements in his entourage who are, and being actively pro-Palestinian, he often doesn't see the problem.
The EU never make up their mind until there's a looming deadline, so the extension attempt is clearly an excuse to kick the can further down the road to facilitate a referendum re-run or a revoke by continuing the campaign of boring the electorate to death and hoping they'll just forget about it.
I'm no fan of politicians, but this has been an unholy exhibition of dishonesty by MPs. Only a few come out and state "I hate the idea of leaving the EU, so I don't care how the referendum went. I will work actively to get my own way."
There's a majority in Parliament for staying. We've always known that. The lies began at day one. Saying "We respect the referendum result but" … followed by … "we must ensure (in coded words) that we never leave" has fooled no one.
As a consequence, their stock is lower than it's ever been. Worse, it takes the electorate for fools. They deserve the voters' contempt.
I think its this week or not at all. Can May, with a bit of help from Corbyn, get her deal over the line? It will be touch and go but the ERG have one last chance to achieve their objective. If they reject it once again we will end up revoking the Article 50 notice.
Well done. You almost always give terrific tips.
I don’t wildly object to the description ‘centrist’, though. It’s an imprecise term in much the same way thatt the idea of political left and right is imprecise, and doesn’t capture a great deal of political reality, as the Brexit debacale has messily demonstrated. All it really means is a rejection of extremism, rather than the average of two forms of it.
As a defining term, I agree it is deeply inadequate.
And her mum is a Christian Palestinian in any case!
Mr. L, aye.
The other, the environment secretary Michael Gove, advocates the retention of tariff protections for sensitive sectors of agriculture and food production, saying that without them swathes of industry will go out of business. The impacts of certain choices might be radically different for Scotland and Wales compared with the richer southeast. And no one, as far as I can see, is telling us how these tariffs will be applied in Northern Ireland in a no-deal world.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c98a4628-36bc-11e9-a129-05a1d4d7c2a2
It’s not even clear there’s a majority for leave any more.
I don’t take issue with your disgust; it is shared by many on the other side of the argument.
The idea of reaching out to the losers sounds nice, but the reality is different. May I ask you a question? What would you call reaching out?
I suspect it goes a little like this … Obviously we have to keep FOM because it's a big help to industry. And in a similar vein, no one argues about the advantages of a common market. Chuck in the Customs Union because we have ready-made deals and a guarantee of standards.
In there circumstances, we 'd expect to pay for these benefits so we should. Thus, your idea of reaching out is not to leave.
If I'm wrong, on which element would you concede?
Apart from anything else, her heritage is (half) Palestinian Christian, not Moslem.
The exception to this will of course be Ireland and perhaps one or two of the bigger countries for their own personal reasons. But actually Ireland is the only one who would have any serious gripes about it.
That is no reason for it to happen but the idea it would be a difficult sell from the EU to the member states is just wrong.
I admire your forgiving nature, but MPs knew exactly what they were doing. Being honest would lose them votes immediately and personally, so they lied. Not well, but well enough to preserve some credibility and hopefully to spread the blame.
To some extent, it has worked. Parliament as a whole is held in contempt. If you doubt that, knock on a few doors north of Watford.
At every point Leavers have accused Remainers of treason and betrayal, and being quislings, enemies of the people, saboteurs, mutineers and citizens of nowhere. They have made no attempt to work constructively with former opponents, choosing alternately to berate them for not helping or blaming them for failures when they do try to help.
At some point Leavers will accept that they share the country with people who see the world differently from them and try to work out a means of accommodation with them. But not yet, I fear.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/layla-moran-lib-dem-leadership-speculation/
(full interview towards the bottom of the page)
To come together, you need to respect the opinion of the ones who don't share your outlook.
However, your heartfelt compliments about the characters of Leave Voters have been misinterpreted, I fear. I don't think I've ever criticised you personally, you're entitled to your opinions, and you accepted the referendum result as a true democrat should.
The EU has some good points, but it is a bureaucracy, and a very political one. Mrs May's deal is a basis but remains a curate's egg in that it relies on trusting the EU to disengage. Its record in that respect is extremely poor. Why should it ever do so? is the killer question.
Wiley Coyote has run off the cliff.
He has just looked down.
We are at the panicked look out of the screen just before he plummets.
Anyway, congratulations. You've won. Enjoy it.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/22/exclusive-theresa-may-clashes-health-secretary-plans-100000/
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/20/uk/shamima-begum-uk-citizenship-stripped-gbr-intl/index.html
One can only wonder whether the lawyers advising Javid are as clueless as the ones advising the press. It's going to get to the point soon when the barrack-room lawyers will be able to complaint that the professional ones are giving their hobby a bad name.
She’s spent two years desperately over compensating for her alleged support for Remain . In her attempt to look like a born again Leaver she put down arbitrary red lines , and has been taken hostage by the ERG .
Instead of bringing the warring sides together she instead has fermented division . As a Remainer I accept our side lost but what I won’t accept is a PM who called us citizens of nowhere , and who called fellow Europeans queue jumpers .
Bless.
Tories no deal opponents need to vote down their own government to remove May. It's no guarantee of anything positive, but it's clear may won't do, well, anything and will stumble into no deal rather than upset the ERG too much because they are larger than the remainers.
Edit/ or take the Soubry view that she really is hung up on immigration
Most Palestinians though regard the whole of the territory between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea as Palestine, and do not accept the existence of Israel per se, as is explicit in the Hamas charter. If this aim was ever achieved, Israel would be eliminated, leading to a second Holocaust, equivalent in scale to that perpetrated in Europe from 1941-5.
I am not promoting anything, merely making clear what the situation is, which is why nearly all Jews are so fearful of and vehemently opposed to anyone or anything with even a tinge of anti-Zionism. That is why Berger and Austin left the Labour party this week, and why a Palestinian leader of the LDs would be regarded with suspicion whatever he/she might state publicly.
I lay much of the blame for that on May and the ERG .
And how's the tally of former opponents if the deal coming around on it? A handful? Even that? I'm talking confirmed not speculation.
They need 100+.
Brexit is done, it'll just be very noisy before we get there since as you point out with the remainers being assertive no one is getting closer to the deal.
No deal chaos is spooking people to remain not the deal in the commons. They cover themselves by saying it's about extension though.