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  • Toby Jones a shoe in for the biopic.

    'Austin, the Angry Years'

    Which on appearances would be all of the years.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    AndyJS said:

    Interesting to observe a potential divide already opening up between the defecting and/or independent MPs. Ian Austin, Frank Field and John Woodcock don't seem to be interested in joining the TIGs.

    It would be a very bad idea for this new grouping to accept Leavers. As a USP it's priceless and if the cards fall kindly could see them going far
  • One of these great twitter polls that Rachael from Swindon loves is needed, who is more rattled whilst trying to look the most supportive to the cult leader:

    Chris Williamson (wingnut in chief)

    vs

    Owen Jones

    One of them has a small majority.
    Worst euphemism ever.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    GIN1138 said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Gin

    There is no such thing as a let down in the world of Welsh polling.

    Every poll emanating from the Principality is box office.

    I Remember a couple of welsh polls at the start of the 2017 general election suggesting Con would get a majority of Welsh seats for the first time since JackW was a twinkle in his mothers eye...

    And look how that ended up! :D
    One election too soon!
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    GIN1138 said:

    Agree with Chris Williamson that Austin should be forced to fight a by-election.

    I was shocked when the Conservative spokesperson on QT last night didn't seem to think these MPs should hold by elections (even though the audience was very strongly in favour of by elections being held)

    Hopefully the next government will legislate to say that if an MP changes their party they have to get the consent of their electorate by holding by elections by law.
    That would be terrific, as it would imply some form of PR with a party list system rather than one-per-constituency FPTP.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    MikeL said:

    BBC graphic on lead story is wrong.

    There are now 20 Independent MPs in Parliament - 11 TIG and 9 other independents.

    "BBC Research" says 11 + 8 - and it's not that they've forgotten Austin - they were wrong yesterday when they had 11 + 7.

    If they can't get something as simple as this correct (and it's correct on Parliament website) what hope is there of them getting more complex data correct?

    I expect they've forgotten Lady Sylvia Hermon. Everyone always does.
    It's easy to, given that she seems more loyal to the government whip than many who supposedly take it.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Roger said:

    AndyJS said:

    Interesting to observe a potential divide already opening up between the defecting and/or independent MPs. Ian Austin, Frank Field and John Woodcock don't seem to be interested in joining the TIGs.

    It would be a very bad idea for this new grouping to accept Leavers. As a USP it's priceless and if the cards fall kindly could see them going far
    Why would Leavers want to join them?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,042
    Roger said:

    AndyJS said:

    Interesting to observe a potential divide already opening up between the defecting and/or independent MPs. Ian Austin, Frank Field and John Woodcock don't seem to be interested in joining the TIGs.

    It would be a very bad idea for this new grouping to accept Leavers. As a USP it's priceless and if the cards fall kindly could see them going far
    Tiggers having to protect themselves from entryists.

    If they don't like the colour of your stripes, you can't join.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    The one lesson you'd expect thinking Tories (yeah, Ok) to learn from Labour's travails is never to make Boris or JRM their leader. After all, the first batch of resignations are effectively pre-announced.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    GIN1138 said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Gin

    There is no such thing as a let down in the world of Welsh polling.

    Every poll emanating from the Principality is box office.

    Remember a couple of welsh polls at the start of the 2018 general election suggesting Con would get a majority of Welsh seats for the first time since JackW was a twinkle in his mothers eye...

    And look how that ended up! :D
    The Tories went from gaining Newport West to losing Cardiff North in that campaign.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    GIN1138 said:

    Agree with Chris Williamson that Austin should be forced to fight a by-election.

    I was shocked when the Conservative spokesperson on QT last night didn't seem to think these MPs should hold by elections (even though the audience was very strongly in favour of by elections being held)

    Hopefully the next government will legislate to say that if an MP changes their party they have to get the consent of their electorate by holding by elections by law.
    That would be terrific, as it would imply some form of PR with a party list system rather than one-per-constituency FPTP.
    I'd be up for PR especially with all these splits going on all over the place.

    FPTP was getting rather silly when it was Con/Lab/Lib-Dem/SNP/UKIP but now with Con and Lab splintering into different directions I think FPTP will soon be redundant.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Dura_Ace said:

    Endillion said:


    Volunteering for the national military of a UK friend and ally makes you a terrorist? In what universe is that a fair point?

    Israel is neither a friend or an ally of the UK. They are the enemy of some of our enemies and supplier of high tech military products. We don't trust them and they certainly don't trust us.
    Well successive Prime Ministers have referred to Israel as both a friend and an ally so clearly the official position is very different to yours.
    The next PM certainly won't.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626

    Toby Jones a shoe in for the biopic.

    'Austin, the Angry Years'

    Which on appearances would be all of the years.
    He has the ability to make doves appear on his hands, St Francis of Assisi-like.

    One of his Austin Super-powers.
  • IanB2 said:

    The one lesson you'd expect thinking Tories (yeah, Ok) to learn from Labour's travails is never to make Boris or JRM their leader. After all, the first batch of resignations are effectively pre-announced.

    I'm not at all sure that those pre-announced resignations are going to be relevant. They might well have decamped to the Hundred Acre Wood before then.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Agree with Chris Williamson that Austin should be forced to fight a by-election.

    I was shocked when the Conservative spokesperson on QT last night didn't seem to think these MPs should hold by elections (even though the audience was very strongly in favour of by elections being held)

    Hopefully the next government will legislate to say that if an MP changes their party they have to get the consent of their electorate by holding by elections by law.
    That would be terrific, as it would imply some form of PR with a party list system rather than one-per-constituency FPTP.
    I'd be up for PR especially with all these splits going on all over the place.

    FPTP was getting rather silly when it was Con/Lab/Lib-Dem/SNP/UKIP but now with Con and Lab splintering into different directions I think FPTP will soon be redundant.
    Trouble is that, like the House of Lords, its beneficiaries always seem to think it's a good thing.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Agree with Chris Williamson that Austin should be forced to fight a by-election.

    I was shocked when the Conservative spokesperson on QT last night didn't seem to think these MPs should hold by elections (even though the audience was very strongly in favour of by elections being held)

    Hopefully the next government will legislate to say that if an MP changes their party they have to get the consent of their electorate by holding by elections by law.
    Absolutely not. We elect constituency MPs not parties and anything that gives yet more power to the parties should be avoided at all costs.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,257
    Sean_F said:

    There are parts of the article that I'd disagree with, although the premise that one should look after elderly parents is correct.

    I agree with this but it does strike me sometimes as an unfair bargain.

    I have to look after my kids as they grow up from when they are babies. This is on the whole a pleasure. They are first of all helpless and cute, then not so helpless but still cute, then they develop and fill out, and this is interesting and fulfilling to be a part of, if sometimes a little worrying. But still, all in all, a great experience.

    Then - the quid pro quo - they have to look after me when I've 'gone over'. I am increasingly helpless but most definitely NOT cute. I am wizened and not attractive to look at. I smell a bit off. My conversation has become rambling and repetitive. I get ill tempered over nothing. In extremis I can't remember names, I mix things up the whole time. All in all, looking after me is not such a pleasant experience.

    I suppose it evens out if you extend it to a 3rd generation - so everybody gets a bash at each end, so to speak - but between any particular parent/child pairing the parent sort of wins and the child sort of loses.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    GIN1138 said:

    Roger said:

    AndyJS said:

    Interesting to observe a potential divide already opening up between the defecting and/or independent MPs. Ian Austin, Frank Field and John Woodcock don't seem to be interested in joining the TIGs.

    It would be a very bad idea for this new grouping to accept Leavers. As a USP it's priceless and if the cards fall kindly could see them going far
    Why would Leavers want to join them?
    It would be funny if there were lots more defections - of people who didn't want to join Chuka.....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,732

    Dura_Ace said:

    Endillion said:


    Volunteering for the national military of a UK friend and ally makes you a terrorist? In what universe is that a fair point?

    Israel is neither a friend or an ally of the UK. They are the enemy of some of our enemies and supplier of high tech military products. We don't trust them and they certainly don't trust us.
    Well successive Prime Ministers have referred to Israel as both a friend and an ally so clearly the official position is very different to yours.
    Since when did you care about the official position? You regarded the official position on the EU to be treachery.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    IanB2 said:

    The one lesson you'd expect thinking Tories (yeah, Ok) to learn from Labour's travails is never to make Boris or JRM their leader. After all, the first batch of resignations are effectively pre-announced.

    Neither look likely to be fair - Boris because he's been "found out" and JRM doesn't want it enough.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,388
    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    There are parts of the article that I'd disagree with, although the premise that one should look after elderly parents is correct.

    I agree with this but it does strike me sometimes as an unfair bargain.

    I have to look after my kids as they grow up from when they are babies. This is on the whole a pleasure. They are first of all helpless and cute, then not so helpless but still cute, then they develop and fill out, and this is interesting and fulfilling to be a part of, if sometimes a little worrying. But still, all in all, a great experience.

    Then - the quid pro quo - they have to look after me when I've 'gone over'. I am increasingly helpless but most definitely NOT cute. I am wizened and not attractive to look at. I smell a bit off. My conversation has become rambling and repetitive. I get ill tempered over nothing. In extremis I can't remember names, I mix things up the whole time. All in all, looking after me is not such a pleasant experience.

    I suppose it evens out if you extend it to a 3rd generation - so everybody gets a bash at each end, so to speak - but between any particular parent/child pairing the parent sort of wins and the child sort of loses.
    I don't see elderly people as being more of a nuisance than young children are.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626

    Roger said:

    AndyJS said:

    Interesting to observe a potential divide already opening up between the defecting and/or independent MPs. Ian Austin, Frank Field and John Woodcock don't seem to be interested in joining the TIGs.

    It would be a very bad idea for this new grouping to accept Leavers. As a USP it's priceless and if the cards fall kindly could see them going far
    Tiggers having to protect themselves from entryists.

    If they don't like the colour of your stripes, you can't join.
    I'm sure there's a gag about

    anti-semites and
    Tiggers and
    stars and stripes

    in there somewhere.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,199
    IanB2 said:

    The one lesson you'd expect thinking Tories (yeah, Ok) to learn from Labour's travails is never to make Boris or JRM their leader. After all, the first batch of resignations are effectively pre-announced.

    Boris or JRM as leader v Corbyn Labour would almost certainly see the TIGs in alliance with the LDs on about 20 to 25% as the SDP Liberal Alliance got in 1983 and 1987.

    However as Thatcher showed then that need not prevent a right-wing Tory party winning a majority under FPTP
  • From recent observation, most children are only too willing to look after their aged parents as best they can. The challenge is not so much distance (though obviously that doesn't help) as time - looking after an old relative is very time-consuming, and if you're in a full-time job, that's a nightmare. Rather than lazily attacking Remainers for carting off grannies to retirement homes, the Bishop of Brexit might have pondered more on how filial responsibilities can be fitted around work.
  • Almost at the end of the podcast. Rather good, and interesting the two chaps disagree quite a bit this time.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The one lesson you'd expect thinking Tories (yeah, Ok) to learn from Labour's travails is never to make Boris or JRM their leader. After all, the first batch of resignations are effectively pre-announced.

    Boris or JRM as leader v Corbyn Labour would almost certainly see the TIGs in alliance with the LDs on about 20 to 25% as the SDP Liberal Alliance got in 1983 and 1987.

    However as Thatcher showed then that need not prevent a right-wing Tory party winning a majority under FPTP
    As usual you miss the point.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited February 2019
    On Israel, I seem to recall singing about it a tremendous amount when I was in my formative years.
    I note Corbyn went to a prep school too, so maybe he is miffed about that !
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Endillion said:


    Volunteering for the national military of a UK friend and ally makes you a terrorist? In what universe is that a fair point?

    Israel is neither a friend or an ally of the UK. They are the enemy of some of our enemies and supplier of high tech military products. We don't trust them and they certainly don't trust us.
    Well successive Prime Ministers have referred to Israel as both a friend and an ally so clearly the official position is very different to yours.
    Since when did you care about the official position? You regarded the official position on the EU to be treachery.
    No I didn't. Stop making things up. By definition an official HMG position cannot be treachery. It can however be wrong and counter to our interests.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    GIN1138 said:

    Agree with Chris Williamson that Austin should be forced to fight a by-election.

    I was shocked when the Conservative spokesperson on QT last night didn't seem to think these MPs should hold by elections (even though the audience was very strongly in favour of by elections being held)

    Hopefully the next government will legislate to say that if an MP changes their party they have to get the consent of their electorate by holding by elections by law.
    Absolutely not. We elect constituency MPs not parties and anything that gives yet more power to the parties should be avoided at all costs.
    Which is why we need STV. In FPTnP the majority of MPs in safe seats are effectively chosen by tiny handfuls of party members.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    edited February 2019
    Pulpstar said:

    On Israel, I seem to recall singing about it a tremendous amount when I was in my formative years.

    You are Siouxsie Sioux and I claim my fiver....
  • IanB2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Agree with Chris Williamson that Austin should be forced to fight a by-election.

    I was shocked when the Conservative spokesperson on QT last night didn't seem to think these MPs should hold by elections (even though the audience was very strongly in favour of by elections being held)

    Hopefully the next government will legislate to say that if an MP changes their party they have to get the consent of their electorate by holding by elections by law.
    That would be terrific, as it would imply some form of PR with a party list system rather than one-per-constituency FPTP.
    I'd be up for PR especially with all these splits going on all over the place.

    FPTP was getting rather silly when it was Con/Lab/Lib-Dem/SNP/UKIP but now with Con and Lab splintering into different directions I think FPTP will soon be redundant.
    Trouble is that, like the House of Lords, its beneficiaries always seem to think it's a good thing.
    The bigger problem is that whatever you replace it with may well not be any better. And the whole process of making the change will be riven with parties (in both the official and unofficial sense of the word) looking to use the change for personal gain.

    I am not wedded to FPTP but I would strongly oppose anything that gave more power to the parties so any form of PR based on supposed party vote is something to be avoided at all costs
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    GIN1138 said:

    Agree with Chris Williamson that Austin should be forced to fight a by-election.

    I was shocked when the Conservative spokesperson on QT last night didn't seem to think these MPs should hold by elections (even though the audience was very strongly in favour of by elections being held)

    Hopefully the next government will legislate to say that if an MP changes their party they have to get the consent of their electorate by holding by elections by law.
    Whilst I think the honourable course of action is to resign to create a by-election, I would hate for that to be enshrined in law.

    My belief has always been that we return a series of individuals to Parliament - and such a law would alter that relationship.

    Could I see some form of recall mechanism? Perhaps. But mandatory by-elections for changing of party allegiance? No.

    We did away with forced by-elections for MPs entering the Cabinet a long, long time ago.

    The only change I want to see with regards to by-elections at this stage is to reduce the 1 year prison term down to any prison term - so that we don't have the outrage of what we are experiencing now. If you are elected to Parliament, you should be held to a higher standard and thus any prison term (whether suspended or not) leads to your permanent exclusion from any elected office in the UK. And I would extend that to those sitting in the House of Lords. A law maker who becomes a law breaker has no right to sit in Parliament or even a Parish Council.

    So let the individual MP decide whether the feel a by-election is the appropriate response to the circumstances of their defection. In most cases, I agree that they probably should call for one - but not all.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited February 2019
    It seems to me that McDonnell is distancing himself from Corbyn more than used to be the case. It's not just a question of style, I think: the positioning seems to be different..

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/shadow-chancellor-john-mcdonnell-exclusively-reveals-how-luciana-berger-was-let-down-by-labour-a4073906.html
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    What if the Home Secretary has intelligence which suggests that Shamina Begum would be a danger to the public if she were to return?

    I would have thought the default assumption is that she does pose a danger unless and until it can be demonstrated otherwise.

    As to what intelligence Sajid Javid possesses - well clearly no fool but he is increasingly looking like a lightweight.
    The reality is this case is just people competing to show how much they hate ISIS.

    From a narrow political perspective, I think Javid missed a trick by saying he will bring her to justice. That might have reassured the Tory membership.
  • IanB2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Agree with Chris Williamson that Austin should be forced to fight a by-election.

    I was shocked when the Conservative spokesperson on QT last night didn't seem to think these MPs should hold by elections (even though the audience was very strongly in favour of by elections being held)

    Hopefully the next government will legislate to say that if an MP changes their party they have to get the consent of their electorate by holding by elections by law.
    Absolutely not. We elect constituency MPs not parties and anything that gives yet more power to the parties should be avoided at all costs.
    Which is why we need STV. In FPTnP the majority of MPs in safe seats are effectively chosen by tiny handfuls of party members.
    I think I could persuade myself of that. As I say my main gripe is the power of parties. As long as they are not given more representation in the system I am not concerned. But I agree that the current system looks to be failing us.

    I return to my belief that we should ban whipping. But I know that upsets all the party faithful out there.

    In spite of the fact it has put Brexit at risk I have enjoyed seeing MPs act more as independents these past few months.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    It seems to me that McDonnell is distancing himself from Corbyn more than used to be the case. It's not just a question of style, I think: the positioning seems to be different..

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/shadow-chancellor-john-mcdonnell-exclusively-reveals-how-luciana-berger-was-let-down-by-labour-a4073906.html

    I'm not sure if he's trying to distance himself or trying to put pressure on Corbyn to move
  • It seems to me that McDonnell is distancing himself from Corbyn more than used to be the case. It's not just a question of style, I think: the positioning seems to be different..

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/shadow-chancellor-john-mcdonnell-exclusively-reveals-how-luciana-berger-was-let-down-by-labour-a4073906.html

    I'm not sure if he's trying to distance himself or trying to put pressure on Corbyn to move
    Yes, perhaps that's a better way of putting it.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Pulpstar said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Alastair, the Welsh poll has a special place in the hearts of all PBers. It is customary and, might I add, gentlemanly, to issue a Welsh Poll Alert when one is due.
    https://twitter.com/astra46/status/1098923723057451008
    https://twitter.com/roger_scully/status/1098923926430904323
    It’s dead, Jim.

  • Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    There are parts of the article that I'd disagree with, although the premise that one should look after elderly parents is correct.

    I agree with this but it does strike me sometimes as an unfair bargain.

    I have to look after my kids as they grow up from when they are babies. This is on the whole a pleasure. They are first of all helpless and cute, then not so helpless but still cute, then they develop and fill out, and this is interesting and fulfilling to be a part of, if sometimes a little worrying. But still, all in all, a great experience.

    Then - the quid pro quo - they have to look after me when I've 'gone over'. I am increasingly helpless but most definitely NOT cute. I am wizened and not attractive to look at. I smell a bit off. My conversation has become rambling and repetitive. I get ill tempered over nothing. In extremis I can't remember names, I mix things up the whole time. All in all, looking after me is not such a pleasant experience.

    I suppose it evens out if you extend it to a 3rd generation - so everybody gets a bash at each end, so to speak - but between any particular parent/child pairing the parent sort of wins and the child sort of loses.
    I don't see elderly people as being more of a nuisance than young children are.
    Well they voted for Brexit, if that isn't being a nuisance I don't know what is.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,388

    It seems to me that McDonnell is distancing himself from Corbyn more than used to be the case. It's not just a question of style, I think: the positioning seems to be different..

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/shadow-chancellor-john-mcdonnell-exclusively-reveals-how-luciana-berger-was-let-down-by-labour-a4073906.html

    I'm not sure if he's trying to distance himself or trying to put pressure on Corbyn to move
    Yes, perhaps that's a better way of putting it.
    I'm not sure if committing to a second referendum would make much difference for Labour at this stage (and quite a lot of their MPs might well vote against it).
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138

    Mr. Seal, sounds like a modern day Justinian is needed to codify and simplify existing law.

    But then how else will tedious remoaners be gainfully employed?
    By responding, wearily but politely, to the remarks of Leavers.



  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    CD13 said:

    Ms Cyclefree,

    You're spot on pointing out the hypocrisy of some, but at least, the Begum situation gives Jezza a chance to show his impeccable liberal credentials. He's probably still mourning over the 'murder' of Jihadi John.

    The conditions in the refugee camp probably are very uncomfortable but nowhere near as uncomfortable as the conditions were for the Yazidis under ISIS.

    But it's a matter of feeling superior for some people. They can see beyond the veneer of fairness and justice to see the real issue - legal justice for a British passport holder, even if she gave it up the first chance she got. It's not every day they get the chance to show their objective superiority. The fact that it shows to most people that they're verging on barmy doesn't matter.

    If you claim to be on the side of the oppressed, as one J Corbyn claims, then you should be supporting and seeking to help the Yazidis. Rather than doing so, Corbyn actively voted against measures designed to help them.

    He is not barmy. He simply has no moral sense or sense of basic decency. A decent human being would have been concerned about what Luciana Berger, Ruth Smeeth, Margaret Hodge, Louise Ellmann faced and reached out to them and tried to help them. He would have shown some empathy and taken real action. Instead, he simply stated that he was against racism as if saying something is enough. And it isn’t. That’s why people are - rightly - fed up.
  • llefllef Posts: 301
    re Welsh polls, there was a council by election in Ely (part of Cardiff) last night.
    Plaid won the seat from Labour with 831 votes, 43% of the vote (+17%)

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plaid-cymru-cardiff-ely-election-15869369

  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Social mobility is the latest Brexiteer enemy.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1098896087425912832?s=21

    Do you think Fraser's aware of the concept of people who don't have children?
    I find Frasers comment about daughter's responsibilities somewhat unpleasant and unfortunate, given that our daughter died (of MND) in her late 40's.
    Are we, if we get to that sad stage, supposed to rely on our daughters in law?
    After all,
    A son is a son till he takes him a wife.
    But a daughter's a daughter all of her life.
    A really brutal truth that I learnt when looking after my mother.

    Old people without families are completely screwed.

    There is no way that you can successfully navigate the NHS, Social Services, Council services, banks and tax authorities, if you have dementia or are in seriously failing health.

    No one else will push these unwieldy organisations into getting you what you need, other than your family.

    You may wish that were not the case. I may wish that were not the case. But, Giles Fraser is simply stating a fact.

    Without family (not necessarily daughters), you should be really terrified of getting old.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    llef said:

    re Welsh polls, there was a council by election in Ely (part of Cardiff) last night.
    Plaid won the seat from Labour with 831 votes, 43% of the vote (+17%)

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plaid-cymru-cardiff-ely-election-15869369

    Neil NcEvoy deserves a lot of credit in hugely increasing Plaid Cymru's profile in Cardiff.

    In fact, McEvoy could become Wales' Alex Salmond, if Plaid Cymru stopped expelling him.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    It seems even Gordon Brown's acolytes are 'Blairites' in the Labour Party nowadays.
  • Sean_F said:

    It seems to me that McDonnell is distancing himself from Corbyn more than used to be the case. It's not just a question of style, I think: the positioning seems to be different..

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/shadow-chancellor-john-mcdonnell-exclusively-reveals-how-luciana-berger-was-let-down-by-labour-a4073906.html

    I'm not sure if he's trying to distance himself or trying to put pressure on Corbyn to move
    Yes, perhaps that's a better way of putting it.
    I'm not sure if committing to a second referendum would make much difference for Labour at this stage (and quite a lot of their MPs might well vote against it).
    That may be so, but what's is the alternative? Continuing to collude with the ERG to crash us out without a deal is likely to be even more opposed by Labour MPs, revoking without a referendum isn't a goer and wouldn't get a majority, simply agreeing to back the deal (or at least abstain) might have been an option once but now would cause major ructions because those wanting a referendum think they have a chance, and the 'jobs-first Brexit' is a convenient fairy-tale for soothing the children at bed-time, not a policy which can be voted on.

    I don't know how this will play out, but I can see a second referendum is a possible scenario, albeit one fraught with its own difficulties.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited February 2019
    IanB2 said:

    The one lesson you'd expect thinking Tories (yeah, Ok) to learn from Labour's travails is never to make Boris or JRM their leader. After all, the first batch of resignations are effectively pre-announced.

    The position of the Tories and Labour is not the same though; now the Labour split is happening if a brexiteer took over and called an election the rebel scum would be crushed. Tory voters are significantly more united, just not with their party leadership.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited February 2019
    GIN1138 said:

    Roger said:

    AndyJS said:

    Interesting to observe a potential divide already opening up between the defecting and/or independent MPs. Ian Austin, Frank Field and John Woodcock don't seem to be interested in joining the TIGs.

    It would be a very bad idea for this new grouping to accept Leavers. As a USP it's priceless and if the cards fall kindly could see them going far
    Why would Leavers want to join them?
    Exactly. Why would a lingerie model join an agency in Riyadh?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,199
    llef said:

    re Welsh polls, there was a council by election in Ely (part of Cardiff) last night.
    Plaid won the seat from Labour with 831 votes, 43% of the vote (+17%)

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plaid-cymru-cardiff-ely-election-15869369

    Plaid won through Tory and LD votes.

    Labour down 7%, LDs down 6%, Tories down 2%, without Tory and LD anti Labour protest votes Plaid would not have won given they only won by 3%.

    Cardiff also voted Remain while Wales as a whole voted Leave so likely some Remainers switching to Plaid too
  • llefllef Posts: 301

    llef said:

    re Welsh polls, there was a council by election in Ely (part of Cardiff) last night.
    Plaid won the seat from Labour with 831 votes, 43% of the vote (+17%)

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plaid-cymru-cardiff-ely-election-15869369

    Neil NcEvoy deserves a lot of credit in hugely increasing Plaid Cymru's profile in Cardiff.

    In fact, McEvoy could become Wales' Alex Salmond, if Plaid Cymru stopped expelling him.
    Don't know much about McEvoy, but PC new leader Adam Price is very impressive, and a huge improvement on Leanne Wood, (which is admittedly not difficult).
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    May vs Cameron shows that for the Cons it's not really deep down about Brexit or Remain it's about competent leadership and good presentation.

    Corbyn has the same faults as May - crap leadership, crap presentation plus a cupboard full of skeletons and a coterie of skeleton makers.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,257
    Sean_F said:

    I don't see elderly people as being more of a nuisance than young children are.

    Me neither. In fact in general I would much rather hang out with a pensioner than a toddler. But it's more the 'looking after' aspect I was thinking about. Or more particularly the often expressed sentiment that the reason why one must look after one's parents at the end of their lives is because they looked after you at the start of yours. That it is a matter of equity. This to me is superficially very reasonable but I am not sure that I agree with it - for the reasons outlined.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,199
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The one lesson you'd expect thinking Tories (yeah, Ok) to learn from Labour's travails is never to make Boris or JRM their leader. After all, the first batch of resignations are effectively pre-announced.

    Boris or JRM as leader v Corbyn Labour would almost certainly see the TIGs in alliance with the LDs on about 20 to 25% as the SDP Liberal Alliance got in 1983 and 1987.

    However as Thatcher showed then that need not prevent a right-wing Tory party winning a majority under FPTP
    As usual you miss the point.
    Your point being there could be more Tory resignations, my point being that does not rule out Boris or JRM winning under FPTP
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138
    edited February 2019
    Sean_F said:

    There are parts of the article that I'd disagree with, although the premise that one should look after elderly parents is correct.

    Giles Frasier. Scourge of social and physical mobility. Born in Aldershot, Hampshire. Educated in Hollingbury Court, Sussex. Graduated from Newcastle University, Tyne and Wear. Doctorate from Lancaster University, Lancashire. Works in Southwark, South London.

    And I will bet you all the money in my pocket, against all the money in yours, that he has never wiped an adult's arse in his life.

  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    HYUFD said:

    llef said:

    re Welsh polls, there was a council by election in Ely (part of Cardiff) last night.
    Plaid won the seat from Labour with 831 votes, 43% of the vote (+17%)

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plaid-cymru-cardiff-ely-election-15869369

    Plaid won through Tory and LD votes.

    Labour down 7%, LDs down 6%, Tories down 2%, without Tory and LD anti Labour protest votes Plaid would not have won given they only won by 3%.

    Cardiff also voted Remain while Wales as a whole voted Leave so likely some Remainers switching to Plaid too
    So was this week - via an insignificant council by-election in Cardiff and the emergence of TIG - the first inklings of a wider shift in the polls? That the Remainer vote, however widely construed (and that may include "not that fussed about the EU but really a bit worried about 3,500 job losses in Swindon"), is finally moving away from Corbyn?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    There are parts of the article that I'd disagree with, although the premise that one should look after elderly parents is correct.

    Giles Frasier. Scourge of social and physical mobility. Born in Aldershot, Hampshire. Educated in Hollingbury Court, Sussex. Graduated from Newcastle University, Tyne and Wear. Doctorate from Lancaster University, Lancashire. Works in Southwark, South London.

    And I will bet you all the money in my pocket, against all the money in yours, that he has never wiped an adult's arse in his life.

    What ? Not even his own ?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,257
    rkrkrk said:

    The reality is this case is just people competing to show how much they hate ISIS.

    From a narrow political perspective, I think Javid missed a trick by saying he will bring her to justice. That might have reassured the Tory membership.

    I guess it is too much to ask that politics be kept out of this stuff.

    The long saga of Theresa May getting Abu Qatada 'on a plane' - remember that one?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    HYUFD said:

    llef said:

    re Welsh polls, there was a council by election in Ely (part of Cardiff) last night.
    Plaid won the seat from Labour with 831 votes, 43% of the vote (+17%)

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plaid-cymru-cardiff-ely-election-15869369

    Plaid won through Tory and LD votes.

    Labour down 7%, LDs down 6%, Tories down 2%, without Tory and LD anti Labour protest votes Plaid would not have won given they only won by 3%.

    Cardiff also voted Remain while Wales as a whole voted Leave so likely some Remainers switching to Plaid too
    I doubt whether Remain or Leave were important -- the desperate state of Labour-controlled Cardiff Council was probably much more relevant.

    The Labour Group is embroiled in infighting. Council services are being cut. And the Council is putting up Council tax more than expected this year -- and is warning of future above inflation increases.

    Some of this is common to all Councils of course, but Cardiff Council has been particularly dysfunctional.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    edited February 2019
    viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    There are parts of the article that I'd disagree with, although the premise that one should look after elderly parents is correct.

    Giles Frasier. Scourge of social and physical mobility. Born in Aldershot, Hampshire. Educated in Hollingbury Court, Sussex. Graduated from Newcastle University, Tyne and Wear. Doctorate from Lancaster University, Lancashire. Works in Southwark, South London.

    And I will bet you all the money in my pocket, against all the money in yours, that he has never wiped an adult's arse in his life.

    The quoting has gone weird so I can't work out whether viewcode or kinabalu said that, but *applauds*.

    And you should post that to Twitter so we can retweet the hell* out of it.

    *Obviously as a good liberal Anglican I don't really believe in hell, but I suspect enduring one of Giles Fraser's sermons is pretty close.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    HYUFD said:

    llef said:

    re Welsh polls, there was a council by election in Ely (part of Cardiff) last night.
    Plaid won the seat from Labour with 831 votes, 43% of the vote (+17%)

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plaid-cymru-cardiff-ely-election-15869369

    Plaid won through Tory and LD votes.

    Labour down 7%, LDs down 6%, Tories down 2%, without Tory and LD anti Labour protest votes Plaid would not have won given they only won by 3%.

    Cardiff also voted Remain while Wales as a whole voted Leave so likely some Remainers switching to Plaid too
    So was this week - via an insignificant council by-election in Cardiff and the emergence of TIG - the first inklings of a wider shift in the polls? That the Remainer vote, however widely construed (and that may include "not that fussed about the EU but really a bit worried about 3,500 job losses in Swindon"), is finally moving away from Corbyn?
    Which is the bigger force ?

    The pull of the new continuity remain party or the push of the repellent Corbyn ?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501
    llef said:

    llef said:

    re Welsh polls, there was a council by election in Ely (part of Cardiff) last night.
    Plaid won the seat from Labour with 831 votes, 43% of the vote (+17%)

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plaid-cymru-cardiff-ely-election-15869369

    Neil NcEvoy deserves a lot of credit in hugely increasing Plaid Cymru's profile in Cardiff.

    In fact, McEvoy could become Wales' Alex Salmond, if Plaid Cymru stopped expelling him.
    Don't know much about McEvoy, but PC new leader Adam Price is very impressive, and a huge improvement on Leanne Wood, (which is admittedly not difficult).
    It's to Leanne's credit that she's accepted the result and continued to campaign, although perhaps not quite as vigorously as previously.
    So far as I can see anyway.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138
    Pulpstar said:

    viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    There are parts of the article that I'd disagree with, although the premise that one should look after elderly parents is correct.

    Giles Frasier. Scourge of social and physical mobility. Born in Aldershot, Hampshire. Educated in Hollingbury Court, Sussex. Graduated from Newcastle University, Tyne and Wear. Doctorate from Lancaster University, Lancashire. Works in Southwark, South London.

    And I will bet you all the money in my pocket, against all the money in yours, that he has never wiped an adult's arse in his life.

    What ? Not even his own ?
    Rather depends if you would define him as an adult.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,199

    HYUFD said:

    llef said:

    re Welsh polls, there was a council by election in Ely (part of Cardiff) last night.
    Plaid won the seat from Labour with 831 votes, 43% of the vote (+17%)

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plaid-cymru-cardiff-ely-election-15869369

    Plaid won through Tory and LD votes.

    Labour down 7%, LDs down 6%, Tories down 2%, without Tory and LD anti Labour protest votes Plaid would not have won given they only won by 3%.

    Cardiff also voted Remain while Wales as a whole voted Leave so likely some Remainers switching to Plaid too
    So was this week - via an insignificant council by-election in Cardiff and the emergence of TIG - the first inklings of a wider shift in the polls? That the Remainer vote, however widely construed (and that may include "not that fussed about the EU but really a bit worried about 3,500 job losses in Swindon"), is finally moving away from Corbyn?
    Labour on 26% and TIG on 14% in one poll this week might suggest it as might Plaid winning a Labour council seat in Remain voting Cardiff.

    By ruling out EUref2 Corbyn risks Remainers going elsewhere
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited February 2019
    HYUFD said:

    llef said:

    re Welsh polls, there was a council by election in Ely (part of Cardiff) last night.
    Plaid won the seat from Labour with 831 votes, 43% of the vote (+17%)

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plaid-cymru-cardiff-ely-election-15869369

    Plaid won through Tory and LD votes.

    Labour down 7%, LDs down 6%, Tories down 2%, without Tory and LD anti Labour protest votes Plaid would not have won given they only won by 3%.

    Cardiff also voted Remain while Wales as a whole voted Leave so likely some Remainers switching to Plaid too
    I sincerely doubt this particular estate voted Remain; one of the poorest, most working class in the region. I suspect the local politics here is actually more reminicent of what’s going on in the valleys.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    Social mobility is the latest Brexiteer enemy.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1098896087425912832?s=21

    Astonishing argument. Our freedom of movement - let's stress the word freedom - should be curtailed to prevent us from employing people who can help our elderly parents.

    Although none of my business, I kind of wonder if Giles Fraser cleans up after his parents on day by day, hour by hour, basis that would give him the moral authority to pontificate on how the rest of us look after our families.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    viewcode said:



    And I will bet you all the money in my pocket, against all the money in yours, that he has never wiped an adult's arse in his life.

    Out of interest, have you? Other than your own, of course.

    My experience of care homes is that the racial fault-lines are at their most exposed.

    There are lots of fluffy-haired, mainly white, sweet-looking old ladies with dementia and incontinence being cared for by young Philippinos, Kazaks, Lithuanians, Malays, Ukrainians, Afro-Carribeans and Indians.

    There are no white Britons amongst the care home staff, usually.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    TGOHF said:

    IanB2 said:

    The one lesson you'd expect thinking Tories (yeah, Ok) to learn from Labour's travails is never to make Boris or JRM their leader. After all, the first batch of resignations are effectively pre-announced.

    Neither look likely to be fair - Boris because he's been "found out" and JRM doesn't want it enough.

    When he gets kicked out of politics, Rees Mogg should acquire a cockney sidekick who calls him 'guvnor' and solve crimes.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501
    In the other by-election last night..... apologies if already posted ........ In Oundle (Northamptonshire) the result was:

    CON: 51.3% (-14.1)
    LDEM: 35.1% (+24.6)
    LAB: 11.1% (-12.9)
    UKIP: 2.5% (+2.5)

    Given the mess that the Tories are in the that County Council I'm a little surprised that the swing wasn't greater.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    llef said:

    llef said:

    re Welsh polls, there was a council by election in Ely (part of Cardiff) last night.
    Plaid won the seat from Labour with 831 votes, 43% of the vote (+17%)

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plaid-cymru-cardiff-ely-election-15869369

    Neil NcEvoy deserves a lot of credit in hugely increasing Plaid Cymru's profile in Cardiff.

    In fact, McEvoy could become Wales' Alex Salmond, if Plaid Cymru stopped expelling him.
    Don't know much about McEvoy, but PC new leader Adam Price is very impressive, and a huge improvement on Leanne Wood, (which is admittedly not difficult).
    It's to Leanne's credit that she's accepted the result and continued to campaign, although perhaps not quite as vigorously as previously.
    So far as I can see anyway.
    llef said:

    llef said:

    re Welsh polls, there was a council by election in Ely (part of Cardiff) last night.
    Plaid won the seat from Labour with 831 votes, 43% of the vote (+17%)

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plaid-cymru-cardiff-ely-election-15869369

    Neil NcEvoy deserves a lot of credit in hugely increasing Plaid Cymru's profile in Cardiff.

    In fact, McEvoy could become Wales' Alex Salmond, if Plaid Cymru stopped expelling him.
    Don't know much about McEvoy, but PC new leader Adam Price is very impressive, and a huge improvement on Leanne Wood, (which is admittedly not difficult).
    Careful.

    Leanne “Nice Voice” Wood has a large fan club on PB.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501

    viewcode said:



    And I will bet you all the money in my pocket, against all the money in yours, that he has never wiped an adult's arse in his life.

    Out of interest, have you? Other than your own, of course.

    My experience of care homes is that the racial fault-lines are at their most exposed.

    There are lots of fluffy-haired, mainly white, sweet-looking old ladies with dementia and incontinence being cared for by young Philippinos, Kazaks, Lithuanians, Malays, Ukrainians, Afro-Carribeans and Indians.

    There are no white Britons amongst the care home staff, usually.
    When I was in that industry ten or so years ago there were generally some ethnic majority staff.
    I did once though come across a home where the front-line staff were almost, if not entirely, Kosovan.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Have just sent a Tweet to Keiran Pedley expressing surprise that the podcast failed to mention the hypothetical polls from March & April 1981 which showed the SDP on its own - without the Liberals - in the 25% - 30% range. Compared with those figures , the recent data is hardly exciting.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    FF43 said:

    Social mobility is the latest Brexiteer enemy.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1098896087425912832?s=21

    Astonishing argument. Our freedom of movement - let's stress the word freedom - should be curtailed to prevent us from employing people who can help our elderly parents.

    Although none of my business, I kind of wonder if Giles Fraser cleans up after his parents on day by day, hour by hour, basis that would give him the moral authority to pontificate on how the rest of us look after our families.
    [Slaps head] Stupid me! Only daughters have the obligation to clear up after incontinent parents. The Rev Fraser is spared the indignity thanks to his Y chromosome and operates in a higher plane.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    justin124 said:

    Have just sent a Tweet to Keiran Pedley expressing surprise that the podcast failed to mention the hypothetical polls from March & April 1981 which showed the SDP on its own - without the Liberals - in the 25% - 30% range. Compared with those figures , the recent data is hardly exciting.

    You think they should have matched them on the very first day?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    What a huge mess this all is. A second referendum being talked about by Bradshaw ET AL will not solve anything. Its to be avoided at all costs. Suppose the second ref was to remain by 52/48.. What then?/ Chaos and a Country completely split. We have to leave on the best terms possible.. There is NO other workable option (I am a Remainer)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    _Anazina_ said:

    llef said:

    llef said:

    re Welsh polls, there was a council by election in Ely (part of Cardiff) last night.
    Plaid won the seat from Labour with 831 votes, 43% of the vote (+17%)

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plaid-cymru-cardiff-ely-election-15869369

    Neil NcEvoy deserves a lot of credit in hugely increasing Plaid Cymru's profile in Cardiff.

    In fact, McEvoy could become Wales' Alex Salmond, if Plaid Cymru stopped expelling him.
    Don't know much about McEvoy, but PC new leader Adam Price is very impressive, and a huge improvement on Leanne Wood, (which is admittedly not difficult).
    It's to Leanne's credit that she's accepted the result and continued to campaign, although perhaps not quite as vigorously as previously.
    So far as I can see anyway.
    llef said:

    llef said:

    re Welsh polls, there was a council by election in Ely (part of Cardiff) last night.
    Plaid won the seat from Labour with 831 votes, 43% of the vote (+17%)

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plaid-cymru-cardiff-ely-election-15869369

    Neil NcEvoy deserves a lot of credit in hugely increasing Plaid Cymru's profile in Cardiff.

    In fact, McEvoy could become Wales' Alex Salmond, if Plaid Cymru stopped expelling him.
    Don't know much about McEvoy, but PC new leader Adam Price is very impressive, and a huge improvement on Leanne Wood, (which is admittedly not difficult).
    Careful.

    Leanne “Nice Voice” Wood has a large fan club on PB.
    For sure. I would buy all her audio books, if she went into that line of work.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    edited February 2019
    Mr Cwsc,

    "There are no white Britons amongst the care home staff, usually."

    My wife spent the last fifteen years of her RGN career (up to 2013) working in local care homes and she wiped plenty of arses - of all colours. She's white, as were most of the staff. The nursing homes were in Huyton and St Helens.

    It's possible Wales is different but don't generalise. I have every respect for all the staff because it's something I couldn't do. One thing my wife said is that the complainants among the visitors were generally those who only come once or twice a year. It's probably a guilt thing there.

    I also respect the Sally Army for the work they do with the down-and-outs. Taking insults from drug-addled pissheads can't be fun. I give monthly to them with pleasure (the Sally Army, not the drop-outs).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    edited February 2019

    In the other by-election last night..... apologies if already posted ........ In Oundle (Northamptonshire) the result was:

    CON: 51.3% (-14.1)
    LDEM: 35.1% (+24.6)
    LAB: 11.1% (-12.9)
    UKIP: 2.5% (+2.5)

    Given the mess that the Tories are in the that County Council I'm a little surprised that the swing wasn't greater.

    Labour in third place is a warning sign if ever I saw one.

    And I did say yesterday that PC would give Labour a run for their money in Cardiff.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,732
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Social mobility is the latest Brexiteer enemy.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1098896087425912832?s=21

    Astonishing argument. Our freedom of movement - let's stress the word freedom - should be curtailed to prevent us from employing people who can help our elderly parents.

    Although none of my business, I kind of wonder if Giles Fraser cleans up after his parents on day by day, hour by hour, basis that would give him the moral authority to pontificate on how the rest of us look after our families.
    [Slaps head] Stupid me! Only daughters have the obligation to clear up after incontinent parents. The Rev Fraser is spared the indignity thanks to his Y chromosome and operates in a higher plane.
    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1098899304712937473?s=21
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501

    What a huge mess this all is. A second referendum being talked about by Bradshaw ET AL will not solve anything. Its to be avoided at all costs. Suppose the second ref was to remain by 52/48.. What then?/ Chaos and a Country completely split. We have to leave on the best terms possible.. There is NO other workable option (I am a Remainer)

    Sympathise. Leave as you say and get back in again when being a rule taker is demonstrably a Bad Idea.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993
    If not Corbyn, who would /could lead the Labour Party
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    IanB2 said:

    In the other by-election last night..... apologies if already posted ........ In Oundle (Northamptonshire) the result was:

    CON: 51.3% (-14.1)
    LDEM: 35.1% (+24.6)
    LAB: 11.1% (-12.9)
    UKIP: 2.5% (+2.5)

    Given the mess that the Tories are in the that County Council I'm a little surprised that the swing wasn't greater.

    Labour in third place is a warning sign if ever I saw one.
    In a rural ward?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited February 2019
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Social mobility is the latest Brexiteer enemy.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1098896087425912832?s=21

    Astonishing argument. Our freedom of movement - let's stress the word freedom - should be curtailed to prevent us from employing people who can help our elderly parents.

    Although none of my business, I kind of wonder if Giles Fraser cleans up after his parents on day by day, hour by hour, basis that would give him the moral authority to pontificate on how the rest of us look after our families.
    [Slaps head] Stupid me! Only daughters have the obligation to clear up after incontinent parents. The Rev Fraser is spared the indignity thanks to his Y chromosome and operates in a higher plane.
    I don't see your position being much different -- you want to outsource the bottom wiping to others ("employing people who can help out elderly parents", which you envisage as coming from outside the UK, as you blather about freedom of movement).

    In any case, wiping bottoms is not the only thing that needs to be done to look after elderly parents -- there are many things that ONLY family members will do. I gave a whole list of them below.
  • FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Social mobility is the latest Brexiteer enemy.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1098896087425912832?s=21

    Astonishing argument. Our freedom of movement - let's stress the word freedom - should be curtailed to prevent us from employing people who can help our elderly parents.

    Although none of my business, I kind of wonder if Giles Fraser cleans up after his parents on day by day, hour by hour, basis that would give him the moral authority to pontificate on how the rest of us look after our families.
    [Slaps head] Stupid me! Only daughters have the obligation to clear up after incontinent parents. The Rev Fraser is spared the indignity thanks to his Y chromosome and operates in a higher plane.
    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1098899304712937473?s=21
    Let me guess, pre 1973?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    From Gary Streeter MP: All it would take to settle things on our side is for the ERG leadership to stop playing Dad's Army and support the Deal. Then we could return to our united positive agenda. BUT they won't. So I and others in the mainstream are looking to the Letwin Bill as the way forward.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501

    IanB2 said:

    In the other by-election last night..... apologies if already posted ........ In Oundle (Northamptonshire) the result was:

    CON: 51.3% (-14.1)
    LDEM: 35.1% (+24.6)
    LAB: 11.1% (-12.9)
    UKIP: 2.5% (+2.5)

    Given the mess that the Tories are in the that County Council I'm a little surprised that the swing wasn't greater.

    Labour in third place is a warning sign if ever I saw one.
    In a rural ward?
    They were second last time out.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    IanB2 said:

    In the other by-election last night..... apologies if already posted ........ In Oundle (Northamptonshire) the result was:

    CON: 51.3% (-14.1)
    LDEM: 35.1% (+24.6)
    LAB: 11.1% (-12.9)
    UKIP: 2.5% (+2.5)

    Given the mess that the Tories are in the that County Council I'm a little surprised that the swing wasn't greater.

    Labour in third place is a warning sign if ever I saw one.
    In a rural ward?
    Look at the previous result.

    Also look at the other by-election yesterday, in Cardiff. Labour loss.
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    In the other by-election last night..... apologies if already posted ........ In Oundle (Northamptonshire) the result was:

    CON: 51.3% (-14.1)
    LDEM: 35.1% (+24.6)
    LAB: 11.1% (-12.9)
    UKIP: 2.5% (+2.5)

    Given the mess that the Tories are in the that County Council I'm a little surprised that the swing wasn't greater.

    Labour in third place is a warning sign if ever I saw one.
    In a rural ward?
    Look at the previous result.

    Also look at the other by-election yesterday, in Cardiff. Labour loss.
    I'm intrigued that Lab got 23% last time. Perhaps the LDs were jsut that crap...
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    CD13 said:

    Mr Cwsc,

    "There are no white Britons amongst the care home staff, usually."

    My wife spent the last fifteen years of her RGN career (up to 2013) working in local care homes and she wiped plenty of arses - of all colours. She's white, as were most of the staff. The nursing homes were in Huyton and St Helens.

    It's possible Wales is different but don't generalise. I have every respect for all the staff because it's something I couldn't do. One thing my wife said is that the complainants among the visitors were generally those who only come once or twice a year. It's probably a guilt thing there.

    I also respect the Sally Army for the work they do with the down-and-outs. Taking insults from drug-addled pissheads can't be fun. I give monthly to them with pleasure (the Sally Army, not the drop-outs).

    My mother was not in a nursing home in Wales, she was in a number of homes in the South of England. The situation I described is accurate for all those homes.

    I suspect Wales may be different, as well as the North of England.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,732

    What a huge mess this all is. A second referendum being talked about by Bradshaw ET AL will not solve anything. Its to be avoided at all costs. Suppose the second ref was to remain by 52/48.. What then?/ Chaos and a Country completely split. We have to leave on the best terms possible.. There is NO other workable option (I am a Remainer)

    That's a circular argument: "Suppose the second referendum doesn't settle anything, then it won't have settled anything."

    We have chaos and a country completely split now, so a course of action that offers the possibility of resolving it is better than a course of action that is certain not to.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    HYUFD said:

    llef said:

    re Welsh polls, there was a council by election in Ely (part of Cardiff) last night.
    Plaid won the seat from Labour with 831 votes, 43% of the vote (+17%)

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plaid-cymru-cardiff-ely-election-15869369

    Plaid won through Tory and LD votes.

    Labour down 7%, LDs down 6%, Tories down 2%, without Tory and LD anti Labour protest votes Plaid would not have won given they only won by 3%.

    Cardiff also voted Remain while Wales as a whole voted Leave so likely some Remainers switching to Plaid too
    I doubt whether Remain or Leave were important -- the desperate state of Labour-controlled Cardiff Council was probably much more relevant.

    The Labour Group is embroiled in infighting. Council services are being cut. And the Council is putting up Council tax more than expected this year -- and is warning of future above inflation increases.

    Some of this is common to all Councils of course, but Cardiff Council has been particularly dysfunctional.
    Yet a PB'er was telling us just yesterday that the ward was safe for Labour.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    viewcode said:



    And I will bet you all the money in my pocket, against all the money in yours, that he has never wiped an adult's arse in his life.

    Out of interest, have you? Other than your own, of course.

    My experience of care homes is that the racial fault-lines are at their most exposed.

    There are lots of fluffy-haired, mainly white, sweet-looking old ladies with dementia and incontinence being cared for by young Philippinos, Kazaks, Lithuanians, Malays, Ukrainians, Afro-Carribeans and Indians.

    There are no white Britons amongst the care home staff, usually.
    When I was in that industry ten or so years ago there were generally some ethnic majority staff.
    I did once though come across a home where the front-line staff were almost, if not entirely, Kosovan.
    The care home my mother in law was in (outskirts of London) had nearly entirely Afro Caribbean staffing although the (registered) nurse on duty that I spoke to was Ukrainian.

    We looked at a care home in North Essex for my father yesterday and the staff were generally white uk nationals - well the ones we spoke to anyway.

    Friend of my son and her mother both work in a care home in another part of Essex (white UK) - so I guess the picture is more nuanced than the picture painted above.

    Saying that it is not a job I think I could do and hats off to whoever does it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,732

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Social mobility is the latest Brexiteer enemy.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1098896087425912832?s=21

    Astonishing argument. Our freedom of movement - let's stress the word freedom - should be curtailed to prevent us from employing people who can help our elderly parents.

    Although none of my business, I kind of wonder if Giles Fraser cleans up after his parents on day by day, hour by hour, basis that would give him the moral authority to pontificate on how the rest of us look after our families.
    [Slaps head] Stupid me! Only daughters have the obligation to clear up after incontinent parents. The Rev Fraser is spared the indignity thanks to his Y chromosome and operates in a higher plane.
    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1098899304712937473?s=21
    Let me guess, pre 1973?
    You might need to rearrange the numbers.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited February 2019
    IanB2 said:

    justin124 said:

    Have just sent a Tweet to Keiran Pedley expressing surprise that the podcast failed to mention the hypothetical polls from March & April 1981 which showed the SDP on its own - without the Liberals - in the 25% - 30% range. Compared with those figures , the recent data is hardly exciting.

    You think they should have matched them on the very first day?
    The SDP enjoyed its greatest momentum at the time of its launch in late March 1981 with the Gang of Four touring the country and addressing huge crowds in overfilling halls. The SDP alone - in the hypothetical polls - was at over 30% in polls. It went off the boil somewhat by June but then received another boost following the Warrington by-election in July where Roy Jenkins did well. The Alliance with the Liberals was formed in the Autumn - 'Go back to your constituencies and prepare for Government' - at the Liberal Assembly. Two by election wins followed at Croydon NW & Crosby and by the end of the year the Alliance hit 50% in a Gallup poll. As a single entity ,however, the SDP was at its strongest in the early Spring of 1981 - doubtless due to novelty value in part.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Social mobility is the latest Brexiteer enemy.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1098896087425912832?s=21

    Astonishing argument. Our freedom of movement - let's stress the word freedom - should be curtailed to prevent us from employing people who can help our elderly parents.

    Although none of my business, I kind of wonder if Giles Fraser cleans up after his parents on day by day, hour by hour, basis that would give him the moral authority to pontificate on how the rest of us look after our families.
    [Slaps head] Stupid me! Only daughters have the obligation to clear up after incontinent parents. The Rev Fraser is spared the indignity thanks to his Y chromosome and operates in a higher plane.
    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1098899304712937473?s=21
    Let me guess, pre 1973?
    You might need to rearrange the numbers.
    1379
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The one lesson you'd expect thinking Tories (yeah, Ok) to learn from Labour's travails is never to make Boris or JRM their leader. After all, the first batch of resignations are effectively pre-announced.

    Boris or JRM as leader v Corbyn Labour would almost certainly see the TIGs in alliance with the LDs on about 20 to 25% as the SDP Liberal Alliance got in 1983 and 1987.

    However as Thatcher showed then that need not prevent a right-wing Tory party winning a majority under FPTP
    As usual you miss the point.
    Your point being there could be more Tory resignations, my point being that does not rule out Boris or JRM winning under FPTP
    The point being that the Tories would tear themselves apart - just as Labour is now - before the leader got anywhere near a GE.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    What a huge mess this all is. A second referendum being talked about by Bradshaw ET AL will not solve anything. Its to be avoided at all costs. Suppose the second ref was to remain by 52/48.. What then?/ Chaos and a Country completely split. We have to leave on the best terms possible.. There is NO other workable option (I am a Remainer)

    That's a circular argument: "Suppose the second referendum doesn't settle anything, then it won't have settled anything."

    We have chaos and a country completely split now, so a course of action that offers the possibility of resolving it is better than a course of action that is certain not to.

    How will it settle it..
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    There are two stunning bets on offer right now on BF exchange:

    - lay Corbyn as PM after May at 7.8
    - lay a no deal exit on 29/3 at 5.0 (out from 4.4 just a few hours ago)
This discussion has been closed.