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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The search for a definition of BINO – “Brexit in Name Only”

One of the most controversial terms in the current UK political climate is BINO – Brexit in Name only. Its usage derives from a previous US election where Republicans not deemed to be ideologically pure were dismissed as RINOs – Republican in Name Only.

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Nigelb

None of them.
It’s as ridiculous a concept as RINO, and merely a rhetorical tool of ideologues.

Nigelb

Or, if you prefer, extremists.

edmundintokyo

I think the pure BINO position is that you're also in the CAP and the CFP, so the only difference is that you don't have a vote.

In practice I guess like RINO, BINO is anything to the left of you.

Nigelb

edmundintokyo said:

I think the pure BINO position is that you're also in the CAP and the CFP, so the only difference is that you don't have a vote.

In practice I guess like RINO, BINO is anything to the left of you.

They are all Brexit; just that some are less preferable to sovereignty absolutists than others.

And as we’ve discussed, ad nauseam, there’s no such thing as absolute sovereignty, even if you’re North Korea.

Sunil_Prasannan

BINO? I'm more of a Dandy man, myself!

(I thank you!)

AlastairMeeks

Any form of Brexit that is not committed to finding the technology to put Britain on a separate tectonic plate is a pathetic dilettante form of Brexit that should be treated with contempt.

Fishing

It's obviously a spectrum. I'd call Norway plus maybe half-BINO, TMay's deal 25% BINO, but the others obviously aren't BINO at all.

Fishing

AlastairMeeks said:

Any form of Brexit that is not committed to finding the technology to put Britain on a separate tectonic plate is a pathetic dilettante form of Brexit that should be treated with contempt.

Any form of remaining that doesn't commit the whole population to speaking Estonian and kissing Juncker's bum, likewise.

Foxy

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries policy much the same as current CAP and CFP. Indeed arch Brexiteer Gove has promised to maintain existing agricultural subsidies and fishing quotas, not least because of the inevitable legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in @cyclefree 's excellent thread, without a clear agreed course away from current EU policies and deals, we are going to continue very much as at present. Not least because by and large those policies work and are supported by the majority of Britons. We can legitimately wonder what is the point.

If I were to divorce Mrs Foxy, I would have the freedom and autonomy to date Rachel Riley, but it ain't going to happen!

Andy_JS

FPT:

"Chris Grayling is a symbol of what is going wrong in Britain

The transport secretary has racked up a litany of failures and should resign"

https://www.ft.com/content/0e378da2-2def-11e9-8744-e7016697f225

Pulpstar

If we assign probabilities to the outcomes and run the brexit experiment multiple times, are we left with a BINOmial Brexit ?

Dura_Ace

Andy_JS said:

FPT:

"Chris Grayling is a symbol of what is going wrong in Britain

The transport secretary has racked up a litany of failures and should resign"

https://www.ft.com/content/0e378da2-2def-11e9-8744-e7016697f225

It's telling that some pb tories will even attempt a half-hearted, limp dicked defence of the Fireplace Salesman but none will ever go into bat for Grayteeth.

Sean_F

FPT That's a fascinating survey from Yougov. Hugo Swire must really have upset his voters.

Foxy

Dura_Ace said:

Andy_JS said:

FPT:

"Chris Grayling is a symbol of what is going wrong in Britain

The transport secretary has racked up a litany of failures and should resign"

https://www.ft.com/content/0e378da2-2def-11e9-8744-e7016697f225

It's telling that some pb tories will even attempt a half-hearted, limp dicked defence of the Fireplace Salesman but none will ever go into bat for Grayteeth.

Williamson and Grayling make the shadow cabinet look good, well nearly!

May likes a weak cabinet of yes men, so as tonot be a threat to her.

FF43

There's no such thing as BINO. Even if we keep the agreements and the rules, not having a say in them means a different and subservient relationship.

rkrkrk

Dura_Ace said:

Andy_JS said:

FPT:

"Chris Grayling is a symbol of what is going wrong in Britain

The transport secretary has racked up a litany of failures and should resign"

https://www.ft.com/content/0e378da2-2def-11e9-8744-e7016697f225

It's telling that some pb tories will even attempt a half-hearted, limp dicked defence of the Fireplace Salesman but none will ever go into bat for Grayteeth.

Nobody thinks they are as incompetent as Grayling appears to be, which make it hard to empathise with him.

RochdalePioneers

People voted for BINO. "Should the United Kingdom Leave the European Union". As nothing else bar the EU was mentioned, all of the "eugh what about x, it's BINO" arguments seem futile.

Nobody will agree on Brexit, what it means, what it does. Nobody will be happy. Part of me wants the proposed compromise where Labour backs May's deal in exchange for a confirmatory referendum, if only to see cretins foaming at the mouth apoplectic in rage that there isn't a deal to deliver Brexit in the referendum that follows (offering May's deal to deliver the Brexit they voted for vs not leaving)

I've decided to stop humouring these cretins. Brexit means Brexit alright - it means leaving the European Union. What you voted for. On the ballot paper. Anything else is your deranged gammon fantasy

FF43

Foxy said:

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries policy much the same as current CAP and CFP. Indeed arch Brexiteer Gove has promised to maintain existing agricultural subsidies and fishing quotas, not least because of the inevitable legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in @cyclefree 's excellent thread, without a clear agreed course away from current EU policies and deals, we are going to continue very much as at present. Not least because by and large those policies work and are supported by the majority of Britons. We can legitimately wonder what is the point.

If I were to divorce Mrs Foxy, I would have the freedom and autonomy to date Rachel Riley, but it ain't going to happen!

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way of guaranteeing France etc will accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis, it's highly likely we will sign up. Why wouldn't we? We want the others to be bound by the rules too. The only difference is that we no longer have any say in those rules, which won't take our interests into account, and which we will have to implement on a do as you are told basis.

DavidL

For me none of the above. All of them involve leaving the political structures of the EU so there are no MEPs, no Councils of Ministers, no European summits, no QMV, no CAP, probably no CFP, limited or no jurisdiction of the CJEU, etc etc.

I have no problem with a close bilateral relationship with the EU after we leave. It is in both our interests. But the key is that it is bilateral and we have choices. At the moment people are obsessing on the terms of the WA. This is absurd. It is in large part a tidying up exercise.

People are starting to focus on the Political declaration/ actual trade agreement. This is much more important but it still has to be appreciated that we will never have a final relationship or a final deal with the EU. Things will continue to evolve, areas of cooperation will become fruitful and in other areas the parties will choose to go their own way. In my opinion if leavers focused on that they would not be throwing around epithets like BINO and they would have supported May's deal in sufficient numbers to allow us to resolve this issue, give the certainty the country is crying out for and move on.

ydoethur

FF43 said:

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way of guaranteeing France etc will accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis, it's highly likely we will sign up. Why wouldn't we? We want the others to be bound by the rules too.

France ignores such rules when it suits them, and the CJEU never enforces them (neither does the Commission) rendering your suggestion a bit pointless. We could accept equivalence, but actually leaving the CAP is one of the few compelling reasons for leaving the EU.

SouthamObserver

FF43 said:

Foxy said:

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries policy much the same as current CAP and CFP. Indeed arch Brexiteer Gove has promised to maintain existing agricultural subsidies and fishing quotas, not least because of the inevitable legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in @cyclefree 's excellent thread, without a clear agreed course away from current EU policies and deals, we are going to continue very much as at present. Not least because by and large those policies work and are supported by the majority of Britons. We can legitimately wonder what is the point.

If I were to divorce Mrs Foxy, I would have the freedom and autonomy to date Rachel Riley, but it ain't going to happen!

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way of guaranteeing France etc will accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis, it's highly likely we will sign up. Why wouldn't we? We want the others to be bound by the rules too. The only difference is that we no longer have any say in those rules, which won't take our interests into account, and which we will have to implement on a do as you are told basis.

As Brits realise ending freedom of movement affects them too, expect that to also be on the table once more. Most people won’t retire to the Med, but I suspect a lot of people like to think they might.

DavidL

Looks like Trump might have signed up to a NI style wall: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47207411

AlastairMeeks

Sean_F said:

FPT That's a fascinating survey from Yougov. Hugo Swire must really have upset his voters.

There’s a very strong independent there.

CD13

We voted to Leave. If we continue to pay the same money as before, we haven't left. When you leave a club, your payments stop - it's not rocket science.

However, if you want to retain some of the 'advantages', and some form of associate membership is possible, you'd expect to pay a lower tariff. But that would be dishonest and not in accord with the referendum unless you had a second vote on this. A sort of modified May deal versus leave with No Deal. A Remain option shouldn't be on the table because we decided to Leave once already.

If you don't honour the Referendum decision, why should any voter, in the future, accept democratic decisions that don't suit them?

There's always a possibility to re-join in the future, but if we don't leave in some legitimate form first, you can forget about accepting any result.

edmundintokyo

CD13 said:

We voted to Leave. If we continue to pay the same money as before, we haven't left. When you leave a club, your payments stop - it's not rocket science.

However, if you want to retain some of the 'advantages', and some form of associate membership is possible, you'd expect to pay a lower tariff. But that would be dishonest and not in accord with the referendum unless you had a second vote on this. A sort of modified May deal versus leave with No Deal. A Remain option shouldn't be on the table because we decided to Leave once already.

If you don't honour the Referendum decision, why should any voter, in the future, accept democratic decisions that don't suit them?

There's always a possibility to re-join in the future, but if we don't leave in some legitimate form first, you can forget about accepting any result.

I don't think your metaphor works, with some clubs non-members can pay to use the facilities, and if they're using them a lot then they may end up paying more. That may mean that leaving was a dumb idea, but it doesn't mean the non-members haven't left.

Foxy

SouthamObserver said:

FF43 said:

Foxy said:

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries policy much the same as current CAP and CFP. Indeed arch Brexiteer Gove has promised to maintain existing agricultural subsidies and fishing quotas, not least because of the inevitable legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in @cyclefree 's excellent thread, without a clear agreed course away from current EU policies and deals, we are going to continue very much as at present. Not least because by and large those policies work and are supported by the majority of Britons. We can legitimately wonder what is the point.

If I were to divorce Mrs Foxy, I would have the freedom and autonomy to date Rachel Riley, but it ain't going to happen!

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way of guaranteeing France etc will accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis, it's highly likely we will sign up. Why wouldn't we? We want the others to be bound by the rules too. The only difference is that we no longer have any say in those rules, which won't take our interests into account, and which we will have to implement on a do as you are told basis.

As Brits realise ending freedom of movement affects them too, expect that to also be on the table once more. Most people won’t retire to the Med, but I suspect a lot of people like to think they might.

Yes, much as I like the Isle of Wight, I do rather fancy a little more winter sun. Fortunately I am rich enough and enjoy good health so can afford to do so.

Poorer and frailer elderly people are going to miss EHIC when its gone. The healthy can get insurance, the less healthy may need to learn to enjoy bracing Skegness.

SouthamObserver

The EU27 realise Boris Johnson or another Brexiteer will probably be the next UK PM. Johnson is a proven, compulsive liar, as are all the other Buccaneers. Of course, the EU is not going to change the backstop. They don’t trust the UK government. You reap what you sow. The EU found that out in 2016. Now it’s the Brexiteers’ turn. I really want them in charge now. They need to own the consequences of what they advocated completely and unequivocally.

AlastairMeeks

Re East Devon:

http://www.claire-wright.org

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

Mr. Observer, the 'Buccaneers', as you call them, don't like May's deal.

Foxy

SouthamObserver said:

The EU27 realise Boris Johnson or another Brexiteer will probably be the next UK PM. Johnson is a proven, compulsive liar, as are all the other Buccaneers. Of course, the EU is not going to change the backstop. They don’t trust the UK government. You reap what you sow. The EU found that out in 2016. Now it’s the Brexiteers’ turn. I really want them in charge now. They need to own the consequences of what they advocated completely and unequivocally.

The first rule of populism is that everything bad is someone elses fault, so it will be a long wait to find a Brexiteer taking ownership.

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/986922917626859521?s=19

FF43

ydoethur said:

FF43 said:

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way of guaranteeing France etc will accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis, it's highly likely we will sign up. Why wouldn't we? We want the others to be bound by the rules too.

France ignores such rules when it suits them, and the CJEU never enforces them (neither does the Commission) rendering your suggestion a bit pointless. We could accept equivalence, but actually leaving the CAP is one of the few compelling reasons for leaving the EU.

France and 26 other countries certainly won't accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis without inclusion in the CAP and CFP and CJEU oversight. We're predicting the future here (of course), but I am confident the UK will sign up.

RochdalePioneers

CD13 said:

We voted to Leave. If we continue to pay the same money as before, we haven't left. When you leave a club, your payments stop - it's not rocket science.

However, if you want to retain some of the 'advantages', and some form of associate membership is possible, you'd expect to pay a lower tariff. But that would be dishonest and not in accord with the referendum unless you had a second vote on this. A sort of modified May deal versus leave with No Deal. A Remain option shouldn't be on the table because we decided to Leave once already.

If you don't honour the Referendum decision, why should any voter, in the future, accept democratic decisions that don't suit them?

There's always a possibility to re-join in the future, but if we don't leave in some legitimate form first, you can forget about accepting any result.

But we're back to what you voted for vs what you think you voted for. You voted to leave the European Union . You didn't vote to leave anything that isn't the European Union as that wasn't asked, and you didn't vote for what we do next as you weren't asked.

May's deal is Brexit as defined by the referendum question. May's deal honours the referendum decision. No deal - which everyone in possession of the facts confirms would utterly fuck this country - is not required as there is already a deal to honour the referendum.

As for remain being the alternate, of course it has to be there. When the facts change can people not expect the ability to change their mind? We had a vote on the concept of leaving. We now have a deal and people should be allowed to chose whether they back it or not.

Nigelb

rkrkrk said:

Dura_Ace said:

Andy_JS said:

FPT:

"Chris Grayling is a symbol of what is going wrong in Britain

The transport secretary has racked up a litany of failures and should resign"

https://www.ft.com/content/0e378da2-2def-11e9-8744-e7016697f225

It's telling that some pb tories will even attempt a half-hearted, limp dicked defence of the Fireplace Salesman but none will ever go into bat for Grayteeth.

Nobody thinks they are as incompetent as Grayling appears to be, which make it hard to empathise with him.

Not even Grayling himself...

ydoethur

FF43 said:

ydoethur said:

FF43 said:

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way of guaranteeing France etc will accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis, it's highly likely we will sign up. Why wouldn't we? We want the others to be bound by the rules too.

France ignores such rules when it suits them, and the CJEU never enforces them (neither does the Commission) rendering your suggestion a bit pointless. We could accept equivalence, but actually leaving the CAP is one of the few compelling reasons for leaving the EU.

France and 26 other countries certainly won't accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis without inclusion in the CAP and CFP and CJEU oversight. We're predicting the future here (of course), but I am confident the UK will sign up.

The point is, they didn't accept it before. Why should we hobble ourselves to their rules when they deliberately flout them themselves?

Of course, if they undertook to place that under the Arbitration Committee instead of the CJEU, that might be sufficient, but like you I rather suspect they won't. The French wouldn't agree to it.

Have a good morning.

Andy_JS

Sean_F said:

FPT That's a fascinating survey from Yougov. Hugo Swire must really have upset his voters.

East Devon / Honiton has been Conservative since 1868 (I think).

SouthamObserver

Foxy said:

SouthamObserver said:

FF43 said:

Foxy said:

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries policy much the same as current CAP and CFP. Indeed arch Brexiteer Gove has promised to maintain existing agricultural subsidies and fishing quotas, not least because of the inevitable legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in @cyclefree 's excellent thread, without a clear agreed course away from current EU policies and deals, we are going to continue very much as at present. Not least because by and large those policies work and are supported by the majority of Britons. We can legitimately wonder what is the point.

If I were to divorce Mrs Foxy, I would have the freedom and autonomy to date Rachel Riley, but it ain't going to happen!

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way of guaranteeing France etc will accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis, it's highly likely we will sign up. Why wouldn't we? We want the others to be bound by the rules too. The only difference is that we no longer have any say in those rules, which won't take our interests into account, and which we will have to implement on a do as you are told basis.

As Brits realise ending freedom of movement affects them too, expect that to also be on the table once more. Most people won’t retire to the Med, but I suspect a lot of people like to think they might.

Yes, much as I like the Isle of Wight, I do rather fancy a little more winter sun. Fortunately I am rich enough and enjoy good health so can afford to do so.

Poorer and frailer elderly people are going to miss EHIC when its gone. The healthy can get insurance, the less healthy may need to learn to enjoy bracing Skegness.

It will cost Brits €500,000 to get a residence visa to live in Spain post-Brexit. That’s the minimum property investment required for non-EU citizens. Then there’s health insurance on top. Currently, the cost of retiring to the sun is as low as the air fare and the monthly rent on a one bedroom flat.

TheJezziah

BINO is whatever the likes of Boris, Farage, the Telegraph and the Sun define it as.

The most terrible monsters are the ones you create, poetic justice for the Conservatives perhaps.

IanB2

May only ever promised the name; what else is "Brexit means Brexit" supposed to convey?

IanB2

edmundintokyo said:

I think the pure BINO position is that you're also in the CAP and the CFP, so the only difference is that you don't have a vote.

In practice I guess like RINO, BINO is anything to the left of you.

It's simply a term of abuse used by those on the right; like the left calling each other Tories.

MarqueeMark

TheJezziah said:

The most terrible monsters are the ones you create

Like the terrible anti-semitic monster being created by Labour, you mean?

FF43

ydoethur said:

FF43 said:

ydoethur said:

FF43 said:

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way of guaranteeing France etc will accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis, it's highly likely we will sign up. Why wouldn't we? We want the others to be bound by the rules too.

France ignores such rules when it suits them, and the CJEU never enforces them (neither does the Commission) rendering your suggestion a bit pointless. We could accept equivalence, but actually leaving the CAP is one of the few compelling reasons for leaving the EU.

France and 26 other countries certainly won't accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis without inclusion in the CAP and CFP and CJEU oversight. We're predicting the future here (of course), but I am confident the UK will sign up.

The point is, they didn't accept it before. Why should we hobble ourselves to their rules when they deliberately flout them themselves?

Of course, if they undertook to place that under the Arbitration Committee instead of the CJEU, that might be sufficient, but like you I rather suspect they won't. The French wouldn't agree to it.

Have a good morning.

Because we want to sell our meat and fish. As fishermen and farmers go bankrupt, do you think they will say, let's not hobble ourselves? They will say, sort it out.

Alanbrooke

SouthamObserver said:

Foxy said:

SouthamObserver said:

FF43 said:

Foxy said:

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries policy much the same as current CAP and CFP. Indeed arch Brexiteer Gove has promised to maintain existing agricultural subsidies and fishing quotas, not least because of the inevitable legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in @cyclefree 's excellent thread, without a clear agreed course away from current EU policies and deals, we are going to continue very much as at present. Not least because by and large those policies work and are supported by the majority of Britons. We can legitimately wonder what is the point.

If I were to divorce Mrs Foxy, I would have the freedom and autonomy to date Rachel Riley, but it ain't going to happen!

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way of guaranteeing France etc will accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis, it's highly likely we will sign up. Why wouldn't we? We want the others to be bound by the rules too. The only difference is that we no longer have any say in those rules, which won't take our interests into account, and which we will have to implement on a do as you are told basis.

As Brits realise ending freedom of movement affects them too, expect that to also be on the table once more. Most people won’t retire to the Med, but I suspect a lot of people like to think they might.

Yes, much as I like the Isle of Wight, I do rather fancy a little more winter sun. Fortunately I am rich enough and enjoy good health so can afford to do so.

Poorer and frailer elderly people are going to miss EHIC when its gone. The healthy can get insurance, the less healthy may need to learn to enjoy bracing Skegness.

It will cost Brits €500,000 to get a residence visa to live in Spain post-Brexit. That’s the minimum property investment required for non-EU citizens. Then there’s health insurance on top. Currently, the cost of retiring to the sun is as low as the air fare and the monthly rent on a one bedroom flat.

theyll just go somewhere else

IanB2

Sean_F said:

FPT That's a fascinating survey from Yougov. Hugo Swire must really have upset his voters.

His expenses were pretty scandalous and according to WP he continues to 'employ' his wife using his allowances.

But tbf the YouGov model showed that as a possible loss in 2017, and of the seat predictions it was one where they were some way off.

SouthamObserver

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Foxy said:

SouthamObserver said:

FF43 said:

Foxy said:

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries policy much the same as current CAP and CFP. Indeed arch Brexiteer Gove has promised to maintain existing agricultural subsidies and fishing quotas, not least because of the inevitable legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in @cyclefree 's excellent thread, without a clear agreed course away from current EU policies and deals, we are going to continue very much as at present. Not least because by and large those policies work and are supported by the majority of Britons. We can legitimately wonder what is the point.

If I were to divorce Mrs Foxy, I would have the freedom and autonomy to date Rachel Riley, but it ain't going to happen!

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way of guaranteeing France etc will accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis, it's highly likely we will sign up. Why wouldn't we? We want the others to be bound by the rules too. The only difference is that we no longer have any say in those rules, which won't take our interests into account, and which we will have to implement on a do as you are told basis.

As Brits realise ending freedom of movement affects them too, expect that to also be on the table once more. Most people won’t retire to the Med, but I suspect a lot of people like to think they might.

Yes, much as I like the Isle of Wight, I do rather fancy a little more winter sun. Fortunately I am rich enough and enjoy good health so can afford to do so.

Poorer and frailer elderly people are going to miss EHIC when its gone. The healthy can get insurance, the less healthy may need to learn to enjoy bracing Skegness.

It will cost Brits €500,000 to get a residence visa to live in Spain post-Brexit. That’s the minimum property investment required for non-EU citizens. Then there’s health insurance on top. Currently, the cost of retiring to the sun is as low as the air fare and the monthly rent on a one bedroom flat.

theyll just go somewhere else

Bridlington?

IanB2

SouthamObserver said:

FF43 said:

Foxy said:

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries policy much the same as current CAP and CFP. Indeed arch Brexiteer Gove has promised to maintain existing agricultural subsidies and fishing quotas, not least because of the inevitable legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in @cyclefree 's excellent thread, without a clear agreed course away from current EU policies and deals, we are going to continue very much as at present. Not least because by and large those policies work and are supported by the majority of Britons. We can legitimately wonder what is the point.

If I were to divorce Mrs Foxy, I would have the freedom and autonomy to date Rachel Riley, but it ain't going to happen!

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way of guaranteeing France etc will accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis, it's highly likely we will sign up. Why wouldn't we? We want the others to be bound by the rules too. The only difference is that we no longer have any say in those rules, which won't take our interests into account, and which we will have to implement on a do as you are told basis.

As Brits realise ending freedom of movement affects them too, expect that to also be on the table once more. Most people won’t retire to the Med, but I suspect a lot of people like to think they might.

And of course it's more than that, losing the ease of studying and working abroad, staying longer than 90 days, and being easy to visit without having to faff about with the upcoming EU ESTA, GB stickers, alcohol limits, border queues and the rest.

MarqueeMark

Andy_JS said:

Sean_F said:

FPT That's a fascinating survey from Yougov. Hugo Swire must really have upset his voters.

East Devon / Honiton has been Conservative since 1868 (I think).

The independent has effectively hoovered up the LibDem vote, while the Labour vote stays more loyal. In 1997 the LibDems had 15,000 - last time out, barely 1,500. If she had got all the LibDem and Labour votes last time, Swire would still be the MP.

CD13

I've no problem if people want to join some sort of 'associate' membership and can get it through a democratic vote. We voted to leave in 2016. 48% wanted to stay, and of those, a proportion, the loud and the arrogant, refused to accept it. From day one, they were shouting for a re-run. They are the anti-democrats. They will only accept a result where they win. That's why BINO is acceptable to them.

They like to think that this, or a re-run of the referendum will be acceptable because they like it. The leavers are old, they don't fuss and they're dying off anyway, so they can be ignored.

You can't be selective with democracy. Once it becomes optional, it becomes useless.

MarqueeMark

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Foxy said:

SouthamObserver said:

FF43 said:

Foxy said:

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries policy much the same as current CAP and CFP. Indeed arch Brexiteer Gove has promised to maintain existing agricultural subsidies and fishing quotas, not least because of the inevitable legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in @cyclefree 's excellent thread, without a clear agreed course away from current EU policies and deals, we are going to continue very much as at present. Not least because by and large those policies work and are supported by the majority of Britons. We can legitimately wonder what is the point.

If I were to divorce Mrs Foxy, I would have the freedom and autonomy to date Rachel Riley, but it ain't going to happen!

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way of guaranteeing France etc will accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis, it's highly likely we will sign up. Why wouldn't we? We want the others to be bound by the rules too. The only difference is that we no longer have any say in those rules, which won't take our interests into account, and which we will have to implement on a do as you are told basis.

As Brits realise ending freedom of movement affects them too, expect that to also be on the table once more. Most people won’t retire to the Med, but I suspect a lot of people like to think they might.

Yes, much as I like the Isle of Wight, I do rather fancy a little more winter sun. Fortunately I am rich enough and enjoy good health so can afford to do so.

Poorer and frailer elderly people are going to miss EHIC when its gone. The healthy can get insurance, the less healthy may need to learn to enjoy bracing Skegness.

It will cost Brits €500,000 to get a residence visa to live in Spain post-Brexit. That’s the minimum property investment required for non-EU citizens. Then there’s health insurance on top. Currently, the cost of retiring to the sun is as low as the air fare and the monthly rent on a one bedroom flat.

theyll just go somewhere else

Bridlington?

Portugal?

NickPalmer

Nigelb said:

None of them.
It’s as ridiculous a concept as RINO, and merely a rhetorical tool of ideologues.

Yes, but relevant all the same. If we do not manage to remain by one route or another (and I personally think we will leave), an important question is how close we can be to maximise unhampered trade with our neighbours without seriously offending the majority of Leave voters.

My impression is that at this point most Leave voters will settle for any withdrawal that offers some control over migration. That was always an important driving force, whereas leaving the customs union or asserting control of detailed regulation or signing separate trade deals really were not, for most.

IanB2

AlastairMeeks said:

Re East Devon:

http://www.claire-wright.org

On the money, from one of her residents:

http://www.claire-wright.org/index.php/post/superb_letter_from_outraged_east_devon_resident_to_sir_hugo_swire_on_brexit

Alanbrooke

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Foxy said:

SouthamObserver said:

FF43 said:

Foxy said:

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries policy much the same as current CAP and CFP. Indeed arch Brexiteer Gove has promised to maintain existing agricultural subsidies and fishing quotas, not least because of the inevitable legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in @cyclefree 's excellent thread, without a clear agreed course away from current EU policies and deals, we are going to continue very much as at present. Not least because by and large those policies work and are supported by the majority of Britons. We can legitimately wonder what is the point.

If I were to divorce Mrs Foxy, I would have the freedom and autonomy to date Rachel Riley, but it ain't going to happen!

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way of guaranteeing France etc will accept UK meat and fish on a national equivalence basis, it's highly likely we will sign up. Why wouldn't we? We want the others to be bound by the rules too. The only difference is that we no longer have any say in those rules, which won't take our interests into account, and which we will have to implement on a do as you are told basis.

As Brits realise ending freedom of movement affects them too, expect that to also be on the table once more. Most people won’t retire to the Med, but I suspect a lot of people like to think they might.

Yes, much as I like the Isle of Wight, I do rather fancy a little more winter sun. Fortunately I am rich enough and enjoy good health so can afford to do so.

Poorer and frailer elderly people are going to miss EHIC when its gone. The healthy can get insurance, the less healthy may need to learn to enjoy bracing Skegness.

It will cost Brits €500,000 to get a residence visa to live in Spain post-Brexit. That’s the minimum property investment required for non-EU citizens. Then there’s health insurance on top. Currently, the cost of retiring to the sun is as low as the air fare and the monthly rent on a one bedroom flat.

theyll just go somewhere else

Bridlington?

no places like Morrocco or Florida or Turkey. Thats assuming they have a problem in the first place, all those people with dual nationality will just continue with business as normal. And eventually places in the Med will want their investors back some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

Casino_Royale

Only the first one is BRINO.

AlastairMeeks

Anyway, the answer to this question is derived from the referendum campaign. Brexit gave a mandate to be unpleasant to foreigners and to have more money spent on the NHS. So long as Brexit meets those key features it is a true Brexit. Everything else is just a wish list retrofitted by mad obsessives.

Dura_Ace

Alanbrooke said:

no places like Morrocco or Florida or Turkey. Thats assuming they have a problem in the first place, all those people with dual nationality will just continue with business as normal. And eventually places in the Med will want their investors back some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

They are not full of Russians who have very little money. FoM in the EU27 will now only apply to those few that can afford it.

SouthamObserver

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Foxy said:

SouthamObserver said:

FF43 said:

Foxy said:

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries policy much the same as current CAP and CFP. Indeed arch Brexiteer Gove has promised to maintain existing agricultural subsidies and fishing quotas, not least because of the inevitable legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in @cyclefree 's excellent thread, without a clear agreed course away from current EU policies and deals, we are going to continue very much as at present. Not least because by and large those policies work and are supported by the majority of Britons. We can legitimately wonder what is the point.

If I were to divorce Mrs Foxy, I would have the freedom and autonomy to date Rachel Riley, but it ain't going to happen!

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way ofto implement on a do as you are told basis.

As Brits realise ending freedom of movement affects them too, expect that to also be on the table once more. Most people won’t retire to the Med, but I suspect a lot of people like to think they might.

Yes, much as I like the Isle of Wight, I do rather fancy a little more winter sun. Fortunately I am rich enough and enjoy good health so can afford to do so.

Poorer and frailer elderly people are going to miss EHIC when its gone. The healthy can get insurance, the less healthy may need to learn to enjoy bracing Skegness.

It will cost Brits €500,000 to get a residence visa to live in Spain post-Brexit. That’s the minimum property investment required for non-EU citizens. Then there’s health insurance on top. Currently, the cost of retiring to the sun is as low as the air fare and the monthly rent on a one bedroom flat.

theyll just go somewhere else

Bridlington?

no places like Morrocco or Florida or Turkey. Thats assuming they have a problem in the first place, all those people with dual nationality will just continue with business as normal. And eventually places in the Med will want their investors back some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

Rich Russians.

Good luck getting a residence visa to live in Florida if you’re living on a UK pension and don’t have big savings. Not sure going to live in increasingly Islamicised Turkey and Morocco will appeal to many, but we’ll find out, I guess. Still, you’ll be fine - as will I - so, phew!!

Endillion

Sean_F said:

FPT That's a fascinating survey from Yougov. Hugo Swire must really have upset his voters.

It was like that in the run-up to the 17GE as well. It was the single piece of information that convinced me (wrongly) that the YouGov model hadn't been properly checked. Ah well.

CD13

Dear ardent Remainers,

You're still fighting the referendum more than two years after the result was announced.

Ratchetting up Project Fear rather than accepting the result. Had we voted for Jezza in 2017 instead of May (just), you're the equivalent of running a campaign in every constituency against sitting MPs because you didn't like the result and you still demand a re-run.

Let it go. Other Remainers are trying to ameliorate the result by going for some sort of associate membership. Mrs May's deal is one such, and that's why the ERG is against it. Labour's refusal to buy into it as a start is splitting the opposition. I forgive Jezza because he only has the brainpower of an intelligent cabbage.

There's real anger around at the childish antics of the HoC, and I think some MPs are now seeing this.

TheJezziah

MarqueeMark said:

TheJezziah said:

The most terrible monsters are the ones you create

Like the terrible anti-semitic monster being created by Labour, you mean?

Considering the new Tory youth club* had its American founder talking about how Hitler's foreign policy was the problem, probably not on the moral high ground there right now.

Alanbrooke

Dura_Ace said:

Alanbrooke said:

no places like Morrocco or Florida or Turkey. Thats assuming they have a problem in the first place, all those people with dual nationality will just continue with business as normal. And eventually places in the Med will want their investors back some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

They are not full of Russians who have very little money. FoM in the EU27 will now only apply to those few that can afford it.

and brits who dont have much money arent there either, all youre saying is the beter off can afford to go places.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/1095211094610755584

Scott_P

On topic

https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1095235640290086912

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1095236020583522306

Philip_Thompson

FPT by fetish do you mean you view NI as part of the UK?

williamglenn said:

theProle said:

Gardenwalker said:

Cyclefree said:

rottenborough said:

Dear God, she has gone totally Nixon, if this report on HuffPo stands up.

Quite. She cares more about herself and the Tories than the country.

The woman is a menace. The Tories will be destroyed if she carries on like this.

As will the country.

The Tories are RADIOACTIVE with anyone under the age of 50. And although some fogeys on here scoff that people naturally get more Tory with age, this time it’s different.

They will not be forgiven.

Speaking as someone well under 50 who has voted Tory in the past (and I live in a tight marginal), the only way I'll ever vote Tory again is if they actually make Brexit happen, either without a deal, or with a deal that isn't just BINO (I'd rather have a deal, but am coming to the conclusion that the EU really are going to cut off their noses to spite their faces, and there is no point in negotiating with people like that).

Unless you have a peculiar fetish about Northern Ireland, the original proposal from the EU would have given you exactly what you want. It was the UK that pushed for the backstop to be extended.

Scott_P

CD13 said:

Dear ardent Remainers,

You're still fighting the referendum more than two years after the result was announced.

Brexiteers fought for 40 years after the vote

asjohnstone

What's all this talk about a 2nd May election ?

Surely not

Philip_Thompson

asjohnstone said:

What's all this talk about a 2nd May election ?

Surely not

There's a lot of reasons to be against a second May election

AlastairMeeks

CD13 said:

Dear ardent Remainers,

You're still fighting the referendum more than two years after the result was announced.

Ratchetting up Project Fear rather than accepting the result. Had we voted for Jezza in 2017 instead of May (just), you're the equivalent of running a campaign in every constituency against sitting MPs because you didn't like the result and you still demand a re-run.

Let it go. Other Remainers are trying to ameliorate the result by going for some sort of associate membership. Mrs May's deal is one such, and that's why the ERG is against it. Labour's refusal to buy into it as a start is splitting the opposition. I forgive Jezza because he only has the brainpower of an intelligent cabbage.

There's real anger around at the childish antics of the HoC, and I think some MPs are now seeing this.

On the contrary, Leavers are trying to weasel out of their commitment. They vowed to be despicable to Turks and to hose the NHS with cash. That was all. Now they’re inventing new requirements.

OldKingCole

Scott_P said:

CD13 said:

Dear ardent Remainers,

You're still fighting the referendum more than two years after the result was announced.

Brexiteers fought for 40 years after the vote

And still didn't have an (expletive deleted) clue about how they were going to unravel the knitting!

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/Cartoon4sale/status/1095094730336227328

Richard_Tyndall

All of them are Brexit.
All of them fulfil the mandate of the 2016 referendum so none of them are BINO.
Norway + is a deeply stupid idea for reasons set out many times before. However Norway is a very good idea and should be the end point.

Alanbrooke

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Foxy said:

SouthamObserver said:

FF43 said:

Foxy said:

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries policy much the same as current CAP and CFP. Indeed arch Brexiteer Gove has promised to maintain existing agricultural subsidies and fishing quotas, not least because of the inevitable legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in o happen!

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way ofto implement on a do as you are told basis.

As Brits realise ending freedom of movement affects them too, expect that to also be on the table once more. Most people won’t retire to the Med, but I suspect a lot of people like to think they might.

Yes, much as I like the Isle of Wight, I do rather fancy a little more winter sun. Fortunately I am rich enough and enjoy good health so can afford to do so.

Poorer and frailer elderly people are going to miss EHIC when its gone. The healthy can get insurance, the less healthy may need to learn to enjoy bracing Skegness.

It will cost Brits €500,000 to get a residence visa to live in Spain post-Brexit. That’s the minimum property investment required for non-EU citizens. Then there’s health insurance on top. Currently, the cost of retiring to the sun is as low as the air fare and the monthly rent on a one bedroom flat.

theyll just go somewhere else

Bridlington?

no places like Morrocco or Florida or Turkey. Thats assuming they have a problem in the first place, all those people with dual nationality will just continue with business as normal. And eventually places in the Med will want their investors back some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

Rich Russians.

Good luck getting a residence visa to live in Florida if you’re living on a UK pension and don’t have big savings. Not sure going to live in increasingly Islamicised Turkey and Morocco will appeal to many, but we’ll find out, I guess. Still, you’ll be fine - as will I - so, phew!!

Extrapolating a bit of inconvenience to absurd levels isnt actually making an argument for remain.

Currently youre like one of those blokes with a placard saying the end is nigh

Theyre always disappointed

edmundintokyo

asjohnstone said:

What's all this talk about a 2nd May election ?

Surely not

I think it makes sense. It's the least Tory-party-breaking way to get the 27 to agree an Article 50 extension, it's pretty the furthest you can kick the can and still say you expect to have brexited before the new EU Parliament starts its session.

Sandpit

This thread is as bad as the last two.

Time to log off for a few days and come back when there’s something to discuss. Hopefully people will have learned to moderate their language by then.

Sean_F

Endillion said:

Sean_F said:

FPT That's a fascinating survey from Yougov. Hugo Swire must really have upset his voters.

It was like that in the run-up to the 17GE as well. It was the single piece of information that convinced me (wrongly) that the YouGov model hadn't been properly checked. Ah well.

Endillion said:

Sean_F said:

FPT That's a fascinating survey from Yougov. Hugo Swire must really have upset his voters.

It was like that in the run-up to the 17GE as well. It was the single piece of information that convinced me (wrongly) that the YouGov model hadn't been properly checked. Ah well.

Claire Wright has the left wing/anti-Brexit vote sewn up. But I don't think it's enough.

Still, Swire has hugely underperformed the Conservatives in general, in a constituency which should be very safe. His vote share is no higher than in 2001. The Conservatives should select a new candidate.

Alanbrooke

Sandpit said:

This thread is as bad as the last two.

Time to log off for a few days and come back when there’s something to discuss. Hopefully people will have learned to moderate their language by then.

Im afraid it will get worse closer to the end of March

SouthamObserver

Alanbrooke said:

Dura_Ace said:

Alanbrooke said:

no places like Morrocco or Florida or Turkey. Thats assuming they have a problem in the first place, all those people with dual nationality will just continue with business as normal. And eventually places in the Med will want their investors back some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

They are not full of Russians who have very little money. FoM in the EU27 will now only apply to those few that can afford it.

and brits who dont have much money arent there either, all youre saying is the beter off can afford to go places.

Nonsense. The Costas are home to large numbers of Brits on very average incomes and of very average means. For the last 40 years living, working and retiring to the sun have been attainable dreams for millions. That is about to end. That may not bother you, but it will bother plenty of other Leave voters who never realised ending freedom of movement didn’t only apply to foreigners.

kle4

Philip_Thompson said:

asjohnstone said:

What's all this talk about a 2nd May election ?

Surely not

There's a lot of reasons to be against a second May election

Got that right! Utterly terrible idea, either way.

Alanbrooke

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

Dura_Ace said:

Alanbrooke said:

no places like Morrocco or Florida or Turkey. Thats assuming they have a problem in the first place, all those people with dual nationality will just continue with business as normal. And eventually places in the Med will want their investors back some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

They are not full of Russians who have very little money. FoM in the EU27 will now only apply to those few that can afford it.

and brits who dont have much money arent there either, all youre saying is the beter off can afford to go places.

Nonsense. The Costas are home to large numbers of Brits on very average incomes and of very average means. For the last 40 years living, working and retiring to the sun have been attainable dreams for millions. That is about to end. That may not bother you, but it will bother plenty of other Leave voters who never realised ending freedom of movement didn’t only apply to foreigners.

so your view is the Spanish government will remove a major source of income just to keep Brussels happy.

edmundintokyo

Sandpit said:

This thread is as bad as the last two.

Here's an interview with Baemy to cheer everybody up. I like the bit where Maddow brings up the oppo about her mistreating her staff and she deploys the stock answer to the classic "do you have any weaknesses" interview question.

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/klobuchar-campaign-launch-emphasizes-democrats-midwest-momentum-1441064515842

[Edit: linked the wrong section]

Sean_F

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Foxy said:

SouthamObserver said:

FF43 said:

Foxy said:

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries policy much the same as current CAP and CFP. Indeed arch Brexiteer Gove has promised to maintain existing agricultural subsidies and fishing quotas, not least because of the inevitable legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in o happen!

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way

As Brits realise ending freedom of movement affects them too, expect that to also be on the table once more. Most people won’t retire to the Med, but I suspect a lot of people like to think they might.

Yes, much as I like the Isle of Wight, I do rather fancy a little more winter sun. Fortunately I am rich enough and enjoy good health so can afford to do so.

Poorer and frailer elderly people are going to miss EHIC when its gone. The healthy can get insurance, the less healthy may need to learn to enjoy bracing Skegness.

It will cost Brits €500,000 to get a residence visa to live in Spain post-Brexit. That’s the minimum property investment required for non-EU citizens. Then there’s health insurance on top. Currently, the cost of retiring to the sun is as low as the air fare and the monthly rent on a one bedroom flat.

theyll just go somewhere else

Bridlington?

no places like Morrocco or Florida or Turkey. Thats assuming they have a problem in the first place, all those people with dual nationality will just continue with business as normal. And eventually places in the Med will want their investors back some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

Rich Russians.

Good luck getting a residence visa to live in Florida if you’re living on a UK pension and don’t have big savings. Not sure going to live in increasingly Islamicised Turkey and Morocco will appeal to many, but we’ll find out, I guess. Still, you’ll be fine - as will I - so, phew!!

Extrapolating a bit of inconvenience to absurd levels isnt actually making an argument for remain.

Currently youre like one of those blokes with a placard saying the end is nigh

Theyre always disappointed

Brits who go to work or study abroad largely prefer English-speaking places, notwithstanding immigration controls. TheUSA, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand attract far more UK emigrants than the Continent does.

tlg86

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

Dura_Ace said:

Alanbrooke said:

no places like Morrocco or Florida or Turkey. Thats assuming they have a problem in the first place, all those people with dual nationality will just continue with business as normal. And eventually places in the Med will want their investors back some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

They are not full of Russians who have very little money. FoM in the EU27 will now only apply to those few that can afford it.

and brits who dont have much money arent there either, all youre saying is the beter off can afford to go places.

Nonsense. The Costas are home to large numbers of Brits on very average incomes and of very average means. For the last 40 years living, working and retiring to the sun have been attainable dreams for millions. That is about to end. That may not bother you, but it will bother plenty of other Leave voters who never realised ending freedom of movement didn’t only apply to foreigners.

so your view is the Spanish government will remove a major source of income just to keep Brussels happy.

It has nothing to do with Brussels. It's entirely up to Spain who they let in from non-EU states. Somehow I don't think much will change - for the obvious reason you give - no matter how much some mad remainers on here want it to be different.

Jonathan

Sean_F said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Foxy said:

SouthamObserver said:

FF43 said:

Foxy said:

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries policy much the same as current CAP and CFP. Indeed arch Brexiteer Gove has promised to maintain existing agricultural subsidies and fishing quotas, not least because of the inevitable legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in o happen!

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way ofto implement on a do as you are told basis.

As Brits realise ending freedom of movement affects them too, expect that to also be on the table once more. Most people won’t retire to the Med, but I suspect a lot of people like to think they might.

Yes, much as I like the Isle of Wight, I do rather fancy a little more winter sun. Fortunately I am rich enough and enjoy good health so can afford to do so.

Poorer and frailer elderly people are going to miss EHIC when its gone. The healthy can get insurance, the less healthy may need to learn to enjoy bracing Skegness.

It will cost Brits €500,000 to get a residence visa to live in Spain post-Brexit. That’s the minimum property investment required for non-EU citizens

theyll just go somewhere else

Bridlington?

no places like Morrocco or Florida or Turkey. Thats assuming they have a problem in the first place, all those people with dual nationality will just continue with business as normal. And eventually places in the Med will want their investors back some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

Rich Russians.

Good luck getting a residence visa to live in Florida if you’re living on a UK pension and don’t have big savings. Not sure going to live in increasingly Islamicised Turkey and Morocco will appeal to many, but we’ll find out, I guess. Still, you’ll be fine - as will I - so, phew!!

Extrapolating a bit of inconvenience to absurd levels isnt actually making an argument for remain.

Currently youre like one of those blokes with a placard saying the end is nigh

Theyre always disappointed

Brits who go to work or study abroad largely prefer English-speaking places, notwithstanding immigration controls. TheUSA, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand

Evidence? Berlin is currently popular in my world. They speak English at work I suppose.

Richard_Tyndall

AlastairMeeks said:

CD13 said:

Dear ardent Remainers,

You're still fighting the referendum more than two years after the result was announced.

Ratchetting up Project Fear rather than accepting the result. Had we voted for Jezza in 2017 instead of May (just), you're the equivalent of running a campaign in every constituency against sitting MPs because you didn't like the result and you still demand a re-run.

Let it go. Other Remainers are trying to ameliorate the result by going for some sort of associate membership. Mrs May's deal is one such, and that's why the ERG is against it. Labour's refusal to buy into it as a start is splitting the opposition. I forgive Jezza because he only has the brainpower of an intelligent cabbage.

There's real anger around at the childish antics of the HoC, and I think some MPs are now seeing this.

On the contrary, Leavers are trying to weasel out of their commitment. They vowed to be despicable to Turks and to hose the NHS with cash. That was all. Now they’re inventing new requirements.

Oh dear. Mad Mr Meeks is off in fantasy land again this morning.

Andy_JS

MarqueeMark said:

Andy_JS said:

Sean_F said:

FPT That's a fascinating survey from Yougov. Hugo Swire must really have upset his voters.

East Devon / Honiton has been Conservative since 1868 (I think).

The independent has effectively hoovered up the LibDem vote, while the Labour vote stays more loyal. In 1997 the LibDems had 15,000 - last time out, barely 1,500. If she had got all the LibDem and Labour votes last time, Swire would still be the MP.

Yes, I'm sceptical about the Tories losing the seat, but then most people were sceptical when the YouGov model said Labour would win Canterbury, which they did.

SouthamObserver

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

Dura_Ace said:

Alanbrooke said:

no places like Morrocco or Florida or Turkey. Thats assuming they have a problem in the first place, all those people with dual nationality will just continue with business as normal. And eventually places in the Med will want their investors back some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

They are not full of Russians who have very little money. FoM in the EU27 will now only apply to those few that can afford it.

and brits who dont have much money arent there either, all youre saying is the beter off can afford to go places.

Nonsense. The Costas are home to large numbers of Brits on very average incomes and of very average means. For the last 40 years living, working and retiring to the sun have been attainable dreams for millions. That is about to end. That may not bother you, but it will bother plenty of other Leave voters who never realised ending freedom of movement didn’t only apply to foreigners.

so your view is the Spanish government will remove a major source of income just to keep Brussels happy.

The income will still be there. No-one’s going to be thrown out. Other northern Europeans will still be able to retire to Spain - and probably a little more cheaply than before.

Alanbrooke

tlg86 said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

Dura_Ace said:

Alanbrooke said:

no places like Morrocco or Florida or Turkey. Thats assuming they have a problem in the first place, all those people with dual nationality will just continue with business as normal. And eventually places in the Med will want their investors back some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

They are not full of Russians who have very little money. FoM in the EU27 will now only apply to those few that can afford it.

and brits who dont have much money arent there either, all youre saying is the beter off can afford to go places.

Nonsense. The Costas are home to large numbers of Brits on very average incomes and of very average means. For the last 40 years living, working and retiring to the sun have been attainable dreams for millions. That is about to end. That may not bother you, but it will bother plenty of other Leave voters who never realised ending freedom of movement didn’t only apply to foreigners.

so your view is the Spanish government will remove a major source of income just to keep Brussels happy.

It has nothing to do with Brussels. It's entirely up to Spain who they let in from non-EU states. Somehow I don't think much will change - for the obvious reason you give - no matter how much some mad remainers on here want it to be different.

I agree with you, but thats not SOs argument.

Richard_Tyndall

Sean_F said:

Brits who go to work or study abroad largely prefer English-speaking places, notwithstanding immigration controls. The USA, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand attract far more UK emigrants than the Continent does.

Yep. 76% of UK nationals working abroad are in non EU countries.

AlastairMeeks

Richard_Tyndall said:

AlastairMeeks said:

CD13 said:

Dear ardent Remainers,

You're still fighting the referendum more than two years after the result was announced.

Ratchetting up Project Fear rather than accepting the result. Had we voted for Jezza in 2017 instead of May (just), you're the equivalent of running a campaign in every constituency against sitting MPs because you didn't like the result and you still demand a re-run.

Let it go. Other Remainers are trying to ameliorate the result by going for some sort of associate membership. Mrs May's deal is one such, and that's why the ERG is against it. Labour's refusal to buy into it as a start is splitting the opposition. I forgive Jezza because he only has the brainpower of an intelligent cabbage.

There's real anger around at the childish antics of the HoC, and I think some MPs are now seeing this.

On the contrary, Leavers are trying to weasel out of their commitment. They vowed to be despicable to Turks and to hose the NHS with cash. That was all. Now they’re inventing new requirements.

Oh dear. Mad Mr Meeks is off in fantasy land again this morning.

Those are the only two things that the public remembers about the referendum campaign. I appreciate that Leave advocates still have yet to take responsibility for their disgusting campaign but the ugly facts are ugly.

Alanbrooke

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

Dura_Ace said:

Alanbrooke said:

no places like Morrocco or Florida or Turkey. Thats assuming they have a problem in the first place, all those people with dual nationality will just continue with business as normal. And eventually places in the Med will want their investors back some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

They are not full of Russians who have very little money. FoM in the EU27 will now only apply to those few that can afford it.

and brits who dont have much money arent there either, all youre saying is the beter off can afford to go places.

Nonsense. The Costas are home to large numbers of Brits on very average incomes and of very average means. For the last 40 years living, working and retiring to the sun have been attainable dreams for millions. That is about to end. That may not bother you, but it will bother plenty of other Leave voters who never realised ending freedom of movement didn’t only apply to foreigners.

so your view is the Spanish government will remove a major source of income just to keep Brussels happy.

The income will still be there. No-one’s going to be thrown out. Other northern Europeans will still be able to retire to Spain - and probably a little more cheaply than before.

so in effect there will be some inconvenience but money is money and things will continue

so whats all the doom mongering about ?

tlg86

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

Dura_Ace said:

Alanbrooke said:

no places like Morrocco or Florida or Turkey. Thats assuming they have a problem in the first place, all those people with dual nationality will just continue with business as normal. And eventually places in the Med will want their investors back some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

They are not full of Russians who have very little money. FoM in the EU27 will now only apply to those few that can afford it.

and brits who dont have much money arent there either, all youre saying is the beter off can afford to go places.

Nonsense. The Costas are home to large numbers of Brits on very average incomes and of very average means. For the last 40 years living, working and retiring to the sun have been attainable dreams for millions. That is about to end. That may not bother you, but it will bother plenty of other Leave voters who never realised ending freedom of movement didn’t only apply to foreigners.

so your view is the Spanish government will remove a major source of income just to keep Brussels happy.

The income will still be there. No-one’s going to be thrown out. Other northern Europeans will still be able to retire to Spain - and probably a little more cheaply than before.

When you say "a little more cheaply than before", what you're suggesting is that Spain is going to take quite a big economic hit. Somehow, I can't see it.

SouthamObserver

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Foxy said:

SouthamObserver said:

FF43 said:

Foxy said:

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries policy much the same as current CAP and CFP. Indeed arch Brexiteer Gove has promised to maintain existing agricultural subsidies and fishing quotas, not least because of the inevitable legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in o happen!

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way ofto implement on a do as you are told basis.

As Brits realise ending freedom of movement affects them too, expect that to also be on the table once more. Most people won’t retire to the Med, but I suspect a lot of people like to think they might.

Yes, much as I like the Isle of Wight, I do rather fancy a little more winter sun. Fortunately I am rich enough and enjoy good health so can afford to do so.

Poorer and frailer elderly people are going to miss EHIC when its gone. The healthy can get insurance, the less healthy may need to learn to enjoy bracing Skegness.

It will cost Brits €500,000 toand the monthly rent on a one bedroom flat.

theyll just go somewhere else

Bridlington?

no places like Morrocco some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

Rich Russians.

Good luck getting a residence visa to live in Florida if you’re living on a UK pension and don’t have big savings. Not sure going to live in increasingly Islamicised Turkey and Morocco will appeal to many, but we’ll find out, I guess. Still, you’ll be fine - as will I - so, phew!!

Extrapolating a bit of inconvenience to absurd levels isnt actually making an argument for remain.

Currently youre like one of those blokes with a placard saying the end is nigh

Theyre always disappointed

I am not making an argument for Remain. I am merely noting a consequence of Leave. I remember pre-referendum all your guffawing ROFLs when anyone pointed out the Irish border might prove a thorny issue!!

Endillion

Sean_F said:

Endillion said:

Sean_F said:

FPT That's a fascinating survey from Yougov. Hugo Swire must really have upset his voters.

It was like that in the run-up to the 17GE as well. It was the single piece of information that convinced me (wrongly) that the YouGov model hadn't been properly checked. Ah well.

Endillion said:

Sean_F said:

FPT That's a fascinating survey from Yougov. Hugo Swire must really have upset his voters.

It was like that in the run-up to the 17GE as well. It was the single piece of information that convinced me (wrongly) that the YouGov model hadn't been properly checked. Ah well.

Claire Wright has the left wing/anti-Brexit vote sewn up. But I don't think it's enough.

Still, Swire has hugely underperformed the Conservatives in general, in a constituency which should be very safe. His vote share is no higher than in 2001. The Conservatives should select a new candidate.

Agree entirely. I just don't see how YouGov can have anything like enough East Devon constituents for their model there to have any predictive power. It relies on assuming similar voters in similar areas will trend the same way, and East Devon is pretty much unique.

Jonathan

Mays counting down the clock strategy is effective but hugely damaging. By effectively blocking anything but her deal she is denying sensible thoughts any oxygen. The price for her deal is to deepen divisions at home. We see that here today. The positional power of a PM trumps other options, regardless of how unpopular she might be. It feels like the only rational response is to step away and wait.

Richard_Tyndall

AlastairMeeks said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AlastairMeeks said:

CD13 said:

Dear ardent Remainers,

You're still fighting the referendum more than two years after the result was announced.

Ratchetting up Project Fear rather than accepting the result. Had we voted for Jezza in 2017 instead of May (just), you're the equivalent of running a campaign in every constituency against sitting MPs because you didn't like the result and you still demand a re-run.

Let it go. Other Remainers are trying to ameliorate the result by going for some sort of associate membership. Mrs May's deal is one such, and that's why the ERG is against it. Labour's refusal to buy into it as a start is splitting the opposition. I forgive Jezza because he only has the brainpower of an intelligent cabbage.

There's real anger around at the childish antics of the HoC, and I think some MPs are now seeing this.

On the contrary, Leavers are trying to weasel out of their commitment. They vowed to be despicable to Turks and to hose the NHS with cash. That was all. Now they’re inventing new requirements.

Oh dear. Mad Mr Meeks is off in fantasy land again this morning.

Those are the only two things that the public remembers about the referendum campaign. I appreciate that Leave advocates still have yet to take responsibility for their disgusting campaign but the ugly facts are ugly.

The only thing that is ugly and disgusting is your view of democracy.

SouthamObserver

tlg86 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

Dura_Ace said:

Alanbrooke said:

no places like Morrocco or Florida or Turkey. Thats assuming they have a problem in the first place, all those people with dual nationality will just continue with business as normal. And eventually places in the Med will want their investors back some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

They are not full of Russians who have very little money. FoM in the EU27 will now only apply to those few that can afford it.

and brits who dont have much money arent there either, all youre saying is the beter off can afford to go places.

Nonsense. The Costas arefreedom of movement didn’t only apply to foreigners.

so your view is the Spanish government will remove a major source of income just to keep Brussels happy.

The income will still be there. No-one’s going to be thrown out. Other northern Europeans will still be able to retire to Spain - and probably a little more cheaply than before.

When you say "a little more cheaply than before", what you're suggesting is that Spain is going to take quite a big economic hit. Somehow, I can't see it.

So what will Spain do? Change its entire immigration system to accommodate retiring Brits? Hmmm. We’re inflicting a very big economic hit on ourselves. It will clearly affect others, too. Just not to the same extent.

malcolmg

Dura_Ace said:

Andy_JS said:

FPT:

"Chris Grayling is a symbol of what is going wrong in Britain

The transport secretary has racked up a litany of failures and should resign"

https://www.ft.com/content/0e378da2-2def-11e9-8744-e7016697f225

It's telling that some pb tories will even attempt a half-hearted, limp dicked defence of the Fireplace Salesman but none will ever go into bat for Grayteeth.

Grayling’s Dept of Transport spent £800,000 on consultants who assessed whether or not his no ferry ferry company could provide ferries

Casino_Royale

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sean_F said:

Brits who go to work or study abroad largely prefer English-speaking places, notwithstanding immigration controls. The USA, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand attract far more UK emigrants than the Continent does.

Yep. 76% of UK nationals working abroad are in non EU countries.

That will certainly be my first port of call if I ever have cause to seriously consider it.

Alanbrooke

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Foxy said:

SouthamObserver said:

FF43 said:

Foxy said:

Brexit Britain is likely to continue agricultural and fisheries polie legal difficulties in untangling them.

As was pointed out in o happen!

More to the point, if being a member of the EU's CAP and CFP and bound by its rules is the only way ofto implement on a do as you are told basis.

As Brits realise ending freedom of movement affects them tsuspect a lot of people like to think they might.

Yes, much as I like the Isle of Wight, I do rather fay bracing Skegness.

It will cost Brits €500,000 toand the monthly rent on a one bedroom flat.

theyll just go somewhere else

Bridlington?

no places like Morrocco some resorts are stuffed full of Russians who seem to have no problem.

Rich Russians.

Good luck getting be fine - as will I - so, phew!!

Extrapolating a bit of inconvenience to absurd levels isnt actually making an argument for remain.

Currently youre like one of those blokes with a placard saying the end is nigh

Theyre always disappointed

I am not making an argument for Remain. I am merely noting a consequence of Leave. I remember pre-referendum all your guffawing ROFLs when anyone pointed out the Irish border might prove a thorny issue!!

yes Ill quite happily say I thought the Irish government was smarter than it currently appears

the Irish border is a concocted issue and now Varadkar is starting to pay the price. He should have settled back in October from the abortion referendum high and moved on, currently he is heading in to a shitstorm on a variety of domestic issues and the opposition have nailed him on Brexit. Back then I thought he knew when to fold but instead he decided to double up and now hes paying the price,

Casino_Royale

Sean_F said:

Endillion said:

Sean_F said:

FPT That's a fascinating survey from Yougov. Hugo Swire must really have upset his voters.

It was like that in the run-up to the 17GE as well. It was the single piece of information that convinced me (wrongly) that the YouGov model hadn't been properly checked. Ah well.

Endillion said:

Sean_F said:

FPT That's a fascinating survey from Yougov. Hugo Swire must really have upset his voters.

It was like that in the run-up to the 17GE as well. It was the single piece of information that convinced me (wrongly) that the YouGov model hadn't been properly checked. Ah well.

Claire Wright has the left wing/anti-Brexit vote sewn up. But I don't think it's enough.

Still, Swire has hugely underperformed the Conservatives in general, in a constituency which should be very safe. His vote share is no higher than in 2001. The Conservatives should select a new candidate.

What’s the problem with Swire?

I can’t recall reading any scandals about him.

Richard_Tyndall

Jonathan said:

Mays counting down the clock strategy is effective but hugely damaging. By effectively blocking anything but her deal she is denying sensible thoughts any oxygen. The price for her deal is to deepen divisions at home. We see that here today. The positional power of a PM trumps other options, regardless of how unpopular she might be. It feels like the only rational response is to step away and wait.

She might reasonably argue that it is not she that is blocking anything but her deal, it is the EU. Unless of course once again this is code for reversing the referendum result.