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  • Chris said:

    1. Corbyn is not alone in finding old buildings boring. I always struggled to get my lot to traipse round medieval towns if there was anything else to do.

    2. I am surprised the Kaiser had a summer retreat in Austria-Hungary rather than in Germany.

    But the Austrians used the same title for their emperors.

    I thought we always called the Austro-Hungarian one the Emperor to distinguish him from the Kaiser.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,876

    If you’re not put off by Jeremy Corbyn laying wreaths for terrorists, you’re not going to be too fussed that he doesn’t care for Secessionist architecture.

    #Breakingpoint

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Chris said:

    1. Corbyn is not alone in finding old buildings boring. I always struggled to get my lot to traipse round medieval towns if there was anything else to do.

    2. I am surprised the Kaiser had a summer retreat in Austria-Hungary rather than in Germany.

    But the Austrians used the same title for their emperors.
    They weren't wholly Roman though.

    As it is time for me to pull out my eight foot horn for its weekly inflation, I shall get my coat.

    Have a good morning.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Mr. Cwsc, depends how tight a grip the tentacles of socialism get on the throat of Labour. The party may be permanently lost to the far left.

    Gravity always pulls the pendulum back.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,676
    More running down the clock from May.

    Holds head in hands. Terrible PM.
  • If you’re not put off by Jeremy Corbyn laying wreaths for terrorists, you’re not going to be too fussed that he doesn’t care for Secessionist architecture.

    The Bower hatchet job published in a Tory rag will do little more than entrench Corbyn’s support inside Labour. That may well have been the point, of course! The last thing the Tories need is a new Labour leader.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626

    If you’re not put off by Jeremy Corbyn laying wreaths for terrorists, you’re not going to be too fussed that he doesn’t care for Secessionist architecture.

    The Bower hatchet job published in a Tory rag will do little more than entrench Corbyn’s support inside Labour. That may well have been the point, of course! The last thing the Tories need is a new Labour leader.

    I actually think the MoS published it as part of its genuflection to Theresa May. As a reminder to the Deal Refuseniks in her party. "This is what you are risking....."
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    Chris said:

    1. Corbyn is not alone in finding old buildings boring. I always struggled to get my lot to traipse round medieval towns if there was anything else to do.

    2. I am surprised the Kaiser had a summer retreat in Austria-Hungary rather than in Germany.

    But the Austrians used the same title for their emperors.

    I thought we always called the Austro-Hungarian one the Emperor to distinguish him from the Kaiser.

    Kaiser v emperor.

    Kaiser means Caesar (as does Tsar)

    Caesar means hair.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752

    Chris said:

    1. Corbyn is not alone in finding old buildings boring. I always struggled to get my lot to traipse round medieval towns if there was anything else to do.

    2. I am surprised the Kaiser had a summer retreat in Austria-Hungary rather than in Germany.

    But the Austrians used the same title for their emperors.

    I thought we always called the Austro-Hungarian one the Emperor to distinguish him from the Kaiser.

    Yes, I think we do. Presumably the Mail was displaying its cosmopolitan sophistication by using the vernacular term. Or maybe the author was just plain confused, as you implied.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    If you’re not put off by Jeremy Corbyn laying wreaths for terrorists, you’re not going to be too fussed that he doesn’t care for Secessionist architecture.

    The Bower hatchet job published in a Tory rag will do little more than entrench Corbyn’s support inside Labour. That may well have been the point, of course! The last thing the Tories need is a new Labour leader.

    I actually think the MoS published it as part of its genuflection to Theresa May. As a reminder to the Deal Refuseniks in her party. "This is what you are risking....."
    The overlap between strong remain feelings and a love of Secessionist architecture is the key to May getting her deal through.
  • Scott_P said:
    They have been saying that for 6 months. Of course it does not make it untrue
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    dots said:

    Chris said:

    1. Corbyn is not alone in finding old buildings boring. I always struggled to get my lot to traipse round medieval towns if there was anything else to do.

    2. I am surprised the Kaiser had a summer retreat in Austria-Hungary rather than in Germany.

    But the Austrians used the same title for their emperors.

    I thought we always called the Austro-Hungarian one the Emperor to distinguish him from the Kaiser.

    Kaiser v emperor.

    Kaiser means Caesar (as does Tsar)

    Caesar means hair.
    Or elephant.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1094536287640526848

    I did mention something about this earlier.

    I would love that headline wrote about me, how much is Corbyn paying them for this stuff?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626

    If you’re not put off by Jeremy Corbyn laying wreaths for terrorists, you’re not going to be too fussed that he doesn’t care for Secessionist architecture.

    The Bower hatchet job published in a Tory rag will do little more than entrench Corbyn’s support inside Labour. That may well have been the point, of course! The last thing the Tories need is a new Labour leader.

    I actually think the MoS published it as part of its genuflection to Theresa May. As a reminder to the Deal Refuseniks in her party. "This is what you are risking....."
    The overlap between strong remain feelings and a love of Secessionist architecture is the key to May getting her deal through.
    The overlap between strong remain feelings and nausea at parading Diane Abbott as his latest shag are stronger.....
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    You've got to feel sorry for the Telegraph. What a day to unveil their 'scoop' that Philip Green isn't a very nice man
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    If you’re not put off by Jeremy Corbyn laying wreaths for terrorists, you’re not going to be too fussed that he doesn’t care for Secessionist architecture.

    The Bower hatchet job published in a Tory rag will do little more than entrench Corbyn’s support inside Labour. That may well have been the point, of course! The last thing the Tories need is a new Labour leader.

    I actually think the MoS published it as part of its genuflection to Theresa May. As a reminder to the Deal Refuseniks in her party. "This is what you are risking....."
    The overlap between strong remain feelings and a love of Secessionist architecture is the key to May getting her deal through.
    The overlap between strong remain feelings and nausea at parading Diane Abbott as his latest shag are stronger.....
    TBH I was just being sarcastic but I'm sure the Tory remainers are big fans of Mail hit pieces.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    Roger said:

    You've got to feel sorry for the Telegraph. What a day to unveil their 'scoop' that Philip Green isn't a very nice man

    Next week, their colour supplement, "Surprise!", covers bears shitting in the woods.....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,732

    1. Corbyn is not alone in finding old buildings boring. I always struggled to get my lot to traipse round medieval towns if there was anything else to do.

    2. I am surprised the Kaiser had a summer retreat in Austria-Hungary rather than in Germany.

    Franz Joseph was the Kaiser.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,876
    edited February 2019
    On Labour splits I really don't think that even Owen Smith would have been daft enough to answer questions the way he did last week unless plans for a split are well developed and looking practical. There are a number who find the manifesto that they were re-elected on in 2017 just unbearable and think that being in the EU is such a part of their identity that being committed to implementing the vote is unacceptable.

    Whether a pro EU party of the left will find sufficient traction has to be more open to doubt. If Brexit proved to be a disaster then just maybe but I think it is worth looking again at what happened to Labour before. The departure of the SDP leadership should have weakened the centre right within Labour greatly. The loss of giants such as Jenkins should have left the centre right leaderless. And yet after Kinnock they chose Smith and then Blair. The left, who seemed so dominant when first Foot and then Kinnock took the leadership and Benn came so close to beating Healey fell back, beaten by a desire to win and get the Tories out. Why will this not happen again post Corbyn and if it does where is the room for the leftish pro EU party?

    Brexit drives normally sane people mad, let alone the likes of Smith, but the strong odds have to be on any split being small and ultimately irrelevant.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626

    If you’re not put off by Jeremy Corbyn laying wreaths for terrorists, you’re not going to be too fussed that he doesn’t care for Secessionist architecture.

    The Bower hatchet job published in a Tory rag will do little more than entrench Corbyn’s support inside Labour. That may well have been the point, of course! The last thing the Tories need is a new Labour leader.

    I actually think the MoS published it as part of its genuflection to Theresa May. As a reminder to the Deal Refuseniks in her party. "This is what you are risking....."
    The overlap between strong remain feelings and a love of Secessionist architecture is the key to May getting her deal through.
    The overlap between strong remain feelings and nausea at parading Diane Abbott as his latest shag are stronger.....
    TBH I was just being sarcastic
    TBH, I always am.....
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Anyone have any evidence on what Corbyn thinks of Salisbury cathedral?
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    Both sums up the triviality of the Mail piece, but also provides more evidence that a Corbyn is a pig-ignorant barbarian.
    Absolutely. That is extremely important revelation. If he doesn’t like medieval, he is therefore a modernist , a cursed utilitarian, with crazed liberal notions of all sorts of uneducated poor to have both education and democratic vote, that will dilute the power of the monarchy the establishment the elite, the whole structure of English Imperialism that makes us the best country in world today will come crashing down.

    Rise up conservatives and crush this foe. And If you voted leave because you are a British Race Patriot, this Corbyn is a traitor.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    Endillion said:

    Anyone have any evidence on what Corbyn thinks of Salisbury cathedral?

    He keeps meaning to team up with his handler there.....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,254
    If there were to be a general election there are several centrist Labour MPs who would want their own party to lose. I will repeat that. They would be rooting for a Tory government in preference to a Labour one.

    Therefore they should not be standing as Labour candidates. This is obvious.

    But I'm not sure what the best way to get rid of them is. Deselection is risky, but so is leaving them to their own devices, since one cannot know what those devices might be.

    Tough one, this, for Corbyn and his people.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    Endillion said:

    Anyone have any evidence on what Corbyn thinks of Salisbury cathedral?

    What does he think of the neo gothic Parliament? He must surely intend to open it to the public and move to a modern building near Droitwich.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited February 2019
    kinabalu said:

    If there were to be a general election there are several centrist Labour MPs who would want their own party to lose. I will repeat that. They would be rooting for a Tory government in preference to a Labour one.

    Therefore they should not be standing as Labour candidates. This is obvious.

    But I'm not sure what the best way to get rid of them is. Deselection is risky, but so is leaving them to their own devices, since one cannot know what those devices might be.

    Tough one, this, for Corbyn and his people.

    Deselection is how it has to go to the ones needed, it isn't wide ranging.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Endillion said:

    Anyone have any evidence on what Corbyn thinks of Salisbury cathedral?

    If he can sort out the heating he wants to turn it into affordable housing for the homeless
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    kinabalu said:

    If there were to be a general election there are several centrist Labour MPs who would want their own party to lose. I will repeat that. They would be rooting for a Tory government in preference to a Labour one.

    No, they would be rooting for a defeat of Corbyn, who does not represent the Labour tradition they support
  • kinabalu said:

    If there were to be a general election there are several centrist Labour MPs who would want their own party to lose. I will repeat that. They would be rooting for a Tory government in preference to a Labour one.

    Therefore they should not be standing as Labour candidates. This is obvious.

    But I'm not sure what the best way to get rid of them is. Deselection is risky, but so is leaving them to their own devices, since one cannot know what those devices might be.

    Tough one, this, for Corbyn and his people.

    Might be a better idea to get rid of Corbyn !!!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,254

    Deselection is how it has to go to the ones needed, it isn't wide ranging.

    Chris Leslie.
    Chuka.
    Liz.
    Wes Streeting.
    Kinnock jnr.
    Bryant.

    There's 6 of the best for starters.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    Scott_P said:
    If it is May's Deal vs No Deal, how many are going to be happy with that?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    Roger said:

    Endillion said:

    Anyone have any evidence on what Corbyn thinks of Salisbury cathedral?

    If he can sort out the heating he wants to turn it into affordable housing for the homeless
    Some lucky one would get spectacular penthouse suites....
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    DavidL said:

    On Labour splits I really don't think that even Owen Smith would have been daft enough to answer questions the way he did last week unless plans for a split are well developed and looking practical.

    Owen Smith is that daft.

    There are some seats a pro-Eu Independent Labour Party might win (e.g. the University seats).

    But, they for sure won't win in the South Wales valleys, like Pontypridd.
  • Scott_P said:
    As I said earlier the party seems to have agreed to remain united on the promise of a vote on the deal by the 27th Feb.

    It has been said this morning that TM will take it down to 72 hours before Brexit so as Fergie said 'squeaky bum time'
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    kinabalu said:

    If there were to be a general election there are several centrist Labour MPs who would want their own party to lose. I will repeat that. They would be rooting for a Tory government in preference to a Labour one.

    Therefore they should not be standing as Labour candidates. This is obvious.

    But I'm not sure what the best way to get rid of them is. Deselection is risky, but so is leaving them to their own devices, since one cannot know what those devices might be.

    Tough one, this, for Corbyn and his people.

    Unfortunately for Labour, it has too many such MPs. It is very tricky for the Labour to do the right thing, given the antagonism it faces from vested interests with hostile agendas.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Roger said:

    Endillion said:

    Anyone have any evidence on what Corbyn thinks of Salisbury cathedral?

    If he can sort out the heating he wants to turn it into affordable housing for the homeless
    Would you say he aspires to do so?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited February 2019
    kinabalu said:

    Deselection is how it has to go to the ones needed, it isn't wide ranging.

    Chris Leslie.
    Chuka.
    Liz.
    Wes Streeting.
    Kinnock jnr.
    Bryant.

    There's 6 of the best for starters.
    If they deselected Carpetbaggers Kinnock Jnr and Bryant -- I'd be voting Labour.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,254
    edited February 2019
    Jeremy was put on this earth to effect a massive and irreversible transfer of wealth and power in favour of working people.

    It would be a real bonus if he was also a connoisseur of fine classical architecture - of course it would - but we can't all be renaissance men.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    edited February 2019

    If you’re not put off by Jeremy Corbyn laying wreaths for terrorists, you’re not going to be too fussed that he doesn’t care for Secessionist architecture.

    I don't know. Might be important to a lot of voters.

    "What do we want?"

    "Secessionist architecture!"

    "When do we want it?"

    "1897".
  • Mr. kinabalu, your verb was correct. Your sentiment was not.

    Socialism is a scourge of the working class. See Venezuela and the Soviet Union.
  • kinabalu said:

    Jeremy was put on this earth to effect a massive and irreversible transfer of wealth and power in favour of working people.

    It would be a real bonus if he was also a connoisseur of fine classical architecture - of course it would - but we can't all be renaissance men.

    EDIT: Have I got 'effect' vs 'affect' right there? Bet I haven't.

    As his hero did in Venezeula
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Roger said:

    Endillion said:

    Anyone have any evidence on what Corbyn thinks of Salisbury cathedral?

    If he can sort out the heating he wants to turn it into affordable housing for the homeless
    Some lucky one would get spectacular penthouse suites....
    But what about the bats...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,254

    Mr. kinabalu, your verb was correct. Your sentiment was not.

    Socialism is a scourge of the working class. See Venezuela and the Soviet Union.

    Jeremy would agree with you going by the manifesto he ran on in 2017.

    Socialism that was not.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    There is practically no Secessionist architecture on the Ringstrasse, although the Postsparkasse (Postal Savings Bank) is right adjacent.

    Would have thought Hungarian-hopping Meeks would know his Jugendstil from his neo-classical.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    kinabalu said:

    Deselection is how it has to go to the ones needed, it isn't wide ranging.

    Chris Leslie.
    Chuka.
    Liz.
    Wes Streeting.
    Kinnock jnr.
    Bryant.

    There's 6 of the best for starters.
    If they deselected Carpetbaggers Kinnock Jnr and Bryant -- I'd be voting Labour.
    Welsh seats for the Welsh?
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    kinabalu said:

    Deselection is how it has to go to the ones needed, it isn't wide ranging.

    Chris Leslie.
    Chuka.
    Liz.
    Wes Streeting.
    Kinnock jnr.
    Bryant.

    There's 6 of the best for starters.
    There is literally zero chance of Chuka being deselected in Streatham, except in the wacko world of your own warped fantasies.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,500
    Roger said:

    kinabalu said:

    Deselection is how it has to go to the ones needed, it isn't wide ranging.

    Chris Leslie.
    Chuka.
    Liz.
    Wes Streeting.
    Kinnock jnr.
    Bryant.

    There's 6 of the best for starters.
    If they deselected Carpetbaggers Kinnock Jnr and Bryant -- I'd be voting Labour.
    Welsh seats for the Welsh?
    What's the matter with Kinnock Jnr?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    Endillion said:

    Roger said:

    Endillion said:

    Anyone have any evidence on what Corbyn thinks of Salisbury cathedral?

    If he can sort out the heating he wants to turn it into affordable housing for the homeless
    Would you say he aspires to do so?
    Corbyn's Journey: From Flying Pickets to Flying Buttresses.......
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Endillion said:

    Roger said:

    Endillion said:

    Anyone have any evidence on what Corbyn thinks of Salisbury cathedral?

    If he can sort out the heating he wants to turn it into affordable housing for the homeless
    Would you say he aspires to do so?
    Yes as long as they abbey the rules
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,254
    Scott_P said:

    No, they would be rooting for a defeat of Corbyn, who does not represent the Labour tradition they support

    Yes, they would say that only a big election defeat, and hence the advent of a strong and triumphant Tory government, will bring the party to its senses and lead to JC's removal as Labour leader.

    And they would be saying this at the very same time as they are standing for election as Labour candidates.

    Except of course that they won't be saying it - because they will be standing for election as Labour candidates.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Roger said:

    kinabalu said:

    Deselection is how it has to go to the ones needed, it isn't wide ranging.

    Chris Leslie.
    Chuka.
    Liz.
    Wes Streeting.
    Kinnock jnr.
    Bryant.

    There's 6 of the best for starters.
    If they deselected Carpetbaggers Kinnock Jnr and Bryant -- I'd be voting Labour.
    Welsh seats for the Welsh?
    What's the matter with Kinnock Jnr?
    Good question
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited February 2019
    Roger said:

    kinabalu said:

    Deselection is how it has to go to the ones needed, it isn't wide ranging.

    Chris Leslie.
    Chuka.
    Liz.
    Wes Streeting.
    Kinnock jnr.
    Bryant.

    There's 6 of the best for starters.
    If they deselected Carpetbaggers Kinnock Jnr and Bryant -- I'd be voting Labour.
    Welsh seats for the Welsh?
    I strongly disapprove of very wealthy people with no previous connection to a constituency being parachuted in (whether it is Nick Boles in Grantham or the Carpetbaggers in the Welsh valleys).

    That certainly happened in Aberavon. Kinnock won the selection battle by one vote, having assured the Constituency Labour Party that rumours that his children were being privately educated were false.

    It later emerged .. surprise, surprise .. that Kinnock's daughter was attending Atlantic College (fees 29 k).

    He is a liar.

    He is completely unrepresentative of Aberavon. My uncle ran a shop in Sandlands, one of the most deprived parts of the constituency, and indeed Wales. A London-bred multimillionaire (whose tax record has been questioned) is completely unsuitable for the constituency.

  • Scott_P said:
    The only way to do that is to get a vote for a deal.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    Scott_P said:
    Great. Let’s put every effort we have into leaving, and given Parliament’s collective disdain for the negotiated deal that is going to mean leaving without one and restarting the negotiations from outside the EU.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,254

    As his hero did in Venezeula

    That is best not mentioned, but since you have. Grim situation indeed in Venezeula. An oil rich nation brought to its knees by endemic political corruption and economic mismanagement. Hyper inflation. Malnutrition rife. Mass exodus of desperate people from the country. And perhaps the worst aspect of all to what is a terrible crisis - an open goal for Tories to attack Jeremy and damage his election prospects here in the UK.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,254

    If they deselected Carpetbaggers Kinnock Jnr and Bryant -- I'd be voting Labour.

    They are both Welsh, though, I believe.

    Does that not count for something?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,042
    Big Falange rally in Madrid today. Hopefully the forces of democracy can hold firm against the fascists.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752

    Scott_P said:
    As I said earlier the party seems to have agreed to remain united on the promise of a vote on the deal by the 27th Feb.

    It has been said this morning that TM will take it down to 72 hours before Brexit so as Fergie said 'squeaky bum time'
    What does that mean, though? Wait until 72 hours before Brexit before doing what, if the deal hasn't passed the Commons? Asking for an extension?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Novara media headline later:

    Bastani: "Corbyn's good, but not quite as good as Blair"
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited February 2019
    kinabalu said:

    If they deselected Carpetbaggers Kinnock Jnr and Bryant -- I'd be voting Labour.

    They are both Welsh, though, I believe.

    Does that not count for something?
    Bryant flipped his second home twice. He was one of the most egregious of the expenses troughers.

    My objection to Kinnock is below. If you want London-bred multimillionaires in Parliament, let them represent London seats, not highly deprived Welsh ones. And let them not be liars.

    Tbc, my objection is that Bryant has no connection to the Rhondda and Kinnock no connection to Aberavon. I would be happy for the Rhondda or Aberavon to be represented by anyone who lived there or has some reasonable connection with the places and their people. They don't have to be ethically Welsh.

    Keir Hardie represented Merthyr Tydfil. He was not Welsh. But, he did understand what his constituents were going through.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,254
    daodao said:

    Unfortunately for Labour, it has too many such MPs. It is very tricky for the Labour to do the right thing, given the antagonism it faces from vested interests with hostile agendas.

    I am not a 'deep state' type of guy - except when meditating or after a vodka binge - but I do think there is much entrenched and powerful opposition in England to any sort of socialist agenda being enacted.

    Unless JC/JM were to win a landslide I suspect they would struggle to get much done.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,042

    Mr. kinabalu, your verb was correct. Your sentiment was not.

    Socialism is a scourge of the working class. See Venezuela and the Soviet Union.

    Oh to bring back the halcyon days of the 19th century when the working class knew our place.

  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    kinabalu said:

    daodao said:

    Unfortunately for Labour, it has too many such MPs. It is very tricky for the Labour to do the right thing, given the antagonism it faces from vested interests with hostile agendas.

    ... I do think there is much entrenched and powerful opposition in England to any sort of socialist agenda being enacted...
    You mean, that the electorate don't want that?
  • Mr. kinabalu, your verb was correct. Your sentiment was not.

    Socialism is a scourge of the working class. See Venezuela and the Soviet Union.

    Oh to bring back the halcyon days of the 19th century when the working class knew our place.

    Damn right.

    We ruled the world then, now the working class backed Brexit sees us begging the Faroe Islands for a trade deal.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:
    Great. Let’s put every effort we have into leaving, and given Parliament’s collective disdain for the negotiated deal that is going to mean leaving without one and restarting the negotiations from outside the EU.
    Or we could postpone it until a party has won an election with a mandate to implement a particular form of Brexit.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,500

    Roger said:

    kinabalu said:

    Deselection is how it has to go to the ones needed, it isn't wide ranging.

    Chris Leslie.
    Chuka.
    Liz.
    Wes Streeting.
    Kinnock jnr.
    Bryant.

    There's 6 of the best for starters.
    If they deselected Carpetbaggers Kinnock Jnr and Bryant -- I'd be voting Labour.
    Welsh seats for the Welsh?
    I strongly disapprove of very wealthy people with no previous connection to a constituency being parachuted in (whether it is Nick Boles in Grantham or the Carpetbaggers in the Welsh valleys).

    That certainly happened in Aberavon. Kinnock won the selection battle by one vote, having assured the Constituency Labour Party that rumours that his children were being privately educated were false.

    It later emerged .. surprise, surprise .. that Kinnock's daughter was attending Atlantic College (fees 29 k).

    He is a liar.

    He is completely unrepresentative of Aberavon. My uncle ran a shop in Sandlands, one of the most deprived parts of the constituency, and indeed Wales. A London-bred multimillionaire (whose tax record has been questioned) is completely unsuitable for the constituency.

    Is he not the son of Neil and Glenys Kinnock, both long term Labour activists? Born in Tredegar, admittedly schooled in London, due to his parents, working there, but at a comprehensive. And according to Wikipedia the Danish authorities, where his tax had been questioned, cleared him.
  • Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:
    Great. Let’s put every effort we have into leaving, and given Parliament’s collective disdain for the negotiated deal that is going to mean leaving without one and restarting the negotiations from outside the EU.
    Some of us have to live here through that, not just observe it from a distance.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,042

    Mr. kinabalu, your verb was correct. Your sentiment was not.

    Socialism is a scourge of the working class. See Venezuela and the Soviet Union.

    Oh to bring back the halcyon days of the 19th century when the working class knew our place.

    Damn right.

    We ruled the world then, now the working class backed Brexit sees us begging the Faroe Islands for a trade deal.
    The 'we' and 'us' to which you refer are not the representatives of the working class. Every so often they receive a bloody nose.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited February 2019
    ydoethur said:

    dots said:

    I can completely understand the inertia of the "big name" moderate Labour backbench MPs - the former ministers and former shadow ministers. In their own minds they're still the next shadow cabinet in waiting and they, probably wrongly, believe they can get their party back. That and the fact that it's emotionally and psychologically very difficult to choose to leave any political party - a fact that people who are not members of political parties often fail to comprehend and it's why major splits in political parties are pretty rare.

    They doubt they can break through on first past the post against established parties.
    There are few, if any cases, from the last century of anyone successfully doing so. 28 Labour MP's defected to the SDP n the early 80's; how many held their seats?
    How many National Liberal MP's were there after 1935 who were not, in effect, Conservatives.
    Only one beyond 1987. The answer to your second question is one as well - Clement Davies.
    David Owen, Robert Maclennan and John Cartwright.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Roger said:

    Endillion said:

    Anyone have any evidence on what Corbyn thinks of Salisbury cathedral?

    If he can sort out the heating he wants to turn it into affordable housing for the homeless
    Some lucky one would get spectacular penthouse suites....
    The Quasimodo wing
  • Chris said:

    Scott_P said:
    As I said earlier the party seems to have agreed to remain united on the promise of a vote on the deal by the 27th Feb.

    It has been said this morning that TM will take it down to 72 hours before Brexit so as Fergie said 'squeaky bum time'
    What does that mean, though? Wait until 72 hours before Brexit before doing what, if the deal hasn't passed the Commons? Asking for an extension?
    I have no idea where this is going but possibly
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,254
    _Anazina_ said:

    There is literally zero chance of Chuka being deselected in Streatham, except in the wacko world of your own warped fantasies.

    I rate Chuka very highly as a politician but the uncomfortable truth is that he is much closer to mainstream one nation conservatism than he is to the democratic socialist party that he nominally represents.

    But, yes, I agree, there is no way that he will be deselected. He is popular in Streatham.

    Is he up for some breakaway action? That is the question.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Owen stood down in 1992 whilst Cartwright was defeated.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,254
    Endillion said:

    You mean, that the electorate don't want that?

    :-)

    Well they are the first hoop to jump through.

    But in the (IMO quite unlikely) event of success with this, my feeling is that unless it's a landslide there will subsequently be many more.

    And to some extent that is how it should be. Socialism in Britain would be a radical and risky experiment. Just because the people vote for it does not mean it ought to get an easy ride.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172



    Is he not the son of Neil and Glenys Kinnock, both long term Labour activists? Born in Tredegar, admittedly schooled in London, due to his parents, working there, but at a comprehensive. And according to Wikipedia the Danish authorities, where his tax had been questioned, cleared him.

    You have a very trusting nature, OKC.

    Tredegar is not Aberavon. It is not even the same county.

    The details of Stephen's tax affairs fall into the class of (legal) tax avoidance -- much like the affairs of many rich people. If you are happy with Richard Branson, Jeff Bezos and Philip Green, you'll be happy with Stephen Kinnock.

    Here, for your benefit, is Kinnock's answer to the question about his daughter's education in 2014:

    "It is highly misleading to say that our daughter attended a private school. It gives the impression that she was attending somewhere like Eton or Harrow, which is far from the truth and something we would never contemplated"

    Actually, we know now that in 2013, she was attending fee-paying Atlantic College. (Morus, formerly of this parish, also attended I believe).

    Kinnock -- like a true politician -- did not actually lie. He did not answer the question, and he certainly hid his daughter's private education from the selection committee. He basically deceived the selection committee.

    Just like Blair deceived the nation. Small deceptions lead to big deceptions in politics.

    And when the facts became known, Stephen, like a true politician, was able to discern some advantage:

    "I have always been open about, and proud of, the fact that a vital part of Johanna’s education took place in Wales."

    If Corby can clear Stephen Kinnock out, that is all to the good.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    I think Corbyn won't resign because he cares only about turning Labour into a hateful, inward-looking and sick party; and May won't because the Brexit job is incomplete, and there's no-one else who could do any better given the situation.

    If May and Corbyn somehow stagger on the 2022 then JC will have been Labour leader for longer than both G. Browns, Callaghan, Foot and E. Milliband. It's astonishing really. He and May deserve each other.
    George Brown was only leader for a very short time though. In fact, am I right in thinking he was the shortest serving leader of the Labour Party behind Beckett?
    George Brown was Acting Leader from Gaitskell's death on 18th January 1963 until Wilson's election on 14th February. Beckett was in office a little longer.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752

    Chris said:

    Scott_P said:
    As I said earlier the party seems to have agreed to remain united on the promise of a vote on the deal by the 27th Feb.

    It has been said this morning that TM will take it down to 72 hours before Brexit so as Fergie said 'squeaky bum time'
    What does that mean, though? Wait until 72 hours before Brexit before doing what, if the deal hasn't passed the Commons? Asking for an extension?
    I have no idea where this is going but possibly
    I suppose the plan might be to pretend that she was going to No Deal (to encourage the sane MPs to back the Deal) or Revoke (to encourage the looney ones), while secretly planning to ask for an extension.

    But if the EU said no on 26 March (or later), she'd be hoist by her own petard.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,254

    Bryant flipped his second home twice. He was one of the most egregious of the expenses troughers.

    My objection to Kinnock is below. If you want London-bred multimillionaires in Parliament, let them represent London seats, not highly deprived Welsh ones. And let them not be liars.

    Tbc, my objection is that Bryant has no connection to the Rhondda and Kinnock no connection to Aberavon. I would be happy for the Rhondda or Aberavon to be represented by anyone who lived there or has some reasonable connection with the places and their people. They don't have to be ethically Welsh.

    Keir Hardie represented Merthyr Tydfil. He was not Welsh. But, he did understand what his constituents were going through.

    OK, I get you, and yes I totally agree. The link between the MP and his or her constituents is one of the biggest strengths of our way of doing politics. Carpetbaggers negate that.

    BTW, I was going to correct your typo - 'ethically' Welsh - and then decided not to because I like it and it begs an interesting question.

    Is there such a thing as a set of Welsh ethics that are distinct from and different to, say, English ethics?

    First instinct is to say no. Ethics are universal.
  • Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Scott_P said:
    As I said earlier the party seems to have agreed to remain united on the promise of a vote on the deal by the 27th Feb.

    It has been said this morning that TM will take it down to 72 hours before Brexit so as Fergie said 'squeaky bum time'
    What does that mean, though? Wait until 72 hours before Brexit before doing what, if the deal hasn't passed the Commons? Asking for an extension?
    I have no idea where this is going but possibly
    I suppose the plan might be to pretend that she was going to No Deal (to encourage the sane MPs to back the Deal) or Revoke (to encourage the looney ones), while secretly planning to ask for an extension.

    But if the EU said no on 26 March (or later), she'd be hoist by her own petard.
    We all would be
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    edited February 2019
    kinabalu said:

    Bryant flipped his second home twice. He was one of the most egregious of the expenses troughers.

    My objection to Kinnock is below. If you want London-bred multimillionaires in Parliament, let them represent London seats, not highly deprived Welsh ones. And let them not be liars.

    Tbc, my objection is that Bryant has no connection to the Rhondda and Kinnock no connection to Aberavon. I would be happy for the Rhondda or Aberavon to be represented by anyone who lived there or has some reasonable connection with the places and their people. They don't have to be ethically Welsh.

    Keir Hardie represented Merthyr Tydfil. He was not Welsh. But, he did understand what his constituents were going through.

    OK, I get you, and yes I totally agree. The link between the MP and his or her constituents is one of the biggest strengths of our way of doing politics. Carpetbaggers negate that.

    BTW, I was going to correct your typo - 'ethically' Welsh - and then decided not to because I like it and it begs an interesting question.

    Is there such a thing as a set of Welsh ethics that are distinct from and different to, say, English ethics?

    First instinct is to say no. Ethics are universal.
    Many in the Welsh Labour movement had their ethics underpinned by Methodism. Maybe that made them different?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626

    Big Falange rally in Madrid today. Hopefully the forces of democracy can hold firm against the fascists.

    Skim-read that as a big Farage rally in Madrid. Which would be a bit weird.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    DavidL said:

    On Labour splits I really don't think that even Owen Smith would have been daft enough to answer questions the way he did last week unless plans for a split are well developed and looking practical. There are a number who find the manifesto that they were re-elected on in 2017 just unbearable and think that being in the EU is such a part of their identity that being committed to implementing the vote is unacceptable.

    The 2017 manifesto was much less left wing or extreme than the manifestos of 1983 and 1974.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,254

    Here, for your benefit, is Kinnock's answer to the question about his daughter's education in 2014:

    "It is highly misleading to say that our daughter attended a private school. It gives the impression that she was attending somewhere like Eton or Harrow, which is far from the truth and something we would never contemplated"

    Well I would have smelt a rat immediately. Claiming credit for not sending his daughter to Eton or Harrow is a clear absurdity. His daughter, along with anybody else's daughter, lacks that certain something which (along with money) is de rigueur for getting in to either of those venerable institutions.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    kinabalu said:

    If they deselected Carpetbaggers Kinnock Jnr and Bryant -- I'd be voting Labour.

    They are both Welsh, though, I believe.

    Does that not count for something?
    Bryant flipped his second home twice. He was one of the most egregious of the expenses troughers.

    My objection to Kinnock is below. If you want London-bred multimillionaires in Parliament, let them represent London seats, not highly deprived Welsh ones. And let them not be liars.

    Tbc, my objection is that Bryant has no connection to the Rhondda and Kinnock no connection to Aberavon. I would be happy for the Rhondda or Aberavon to be represented by anyone who lived there or has some reasonable connection with the places and their people. They don't have to be ethically Welsh.

    Keir Hardie represented Merthyr Tydfil. He was not Welsh. But, he did understand what his constituents were going through.
    How representative was John Morris as MP for Aberavon?
  • Big Falange rally in Madrid today. Hopefully the forces of democracy can hold firm against the fascists.

    Skim-read that as a big Farage rally in Madrid. Which would be a bit weird.
    Otoh Farage at a big Falange rally makes perfect sense (just don't mention Gibraltar, Nige).
  • kinabalu said:

    Bryant flipped his second home twice. He was one of the most egregious of the expenses troughers.

    My objection to Kinnock is below. If you want London-bred multimillionaires in Parliament, let them represent London seats, not highly deprived Welsh ones. And let them not be liars.

    Tbc, my objection is that Bryant has no connection to the Rhondda and Kinnock no connection to Aberavon. I would be happy for the Rhondda or Aberavon to be represented by anyone who lived there or has some reasonable connection with the places and their people. They don't have to be ethically Welsh.

    Keir Hardie represented Merthyr Tydfil. He was not Welsh. But, he did understand what his constituents were going through.

    OK, I get you, and yes I totally agree. The link between the MP and his or her constituents is one of the biggest strengths of our way of doing politics. Carpetbaggers negate that.

    BTW, I was going to correct your typo - 'ethically' Welsh - and then decided not to because I like it and it begs an interesting question.

    Is there such a thing as a set of Welsh ethics that are distinct from and different to, say, English ethics?

    First instinct is to say no. Ethics are universal.
    I don't think I can agree with that. Ethics do vary geographically and temporally. They are based on a complex set of historical and societal pressures and I do believe it is wrong to say that, for example, some practices we now consider to be unethical, should be judged in the same way when looking at the past.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,254

    Many in the Welsh Labour movement had their ethics underpinned by Methodism. Maybe that made them different?

    Methodism is certainly something that I think of as Neil Kinnocky and Welsh, similarly Presbyterianism (gosh had to google that spelling) I think of as being Gordon Browny and Scottish. He was the 'Son of the Mance' after all.

    But I don't know whether that is right. Perhaps these traditions are equally strong in parts of England.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    How does it work if the Commons instructs the government to “take no deal off the tsble@?

    May scurries off to Brussels and comes back and days there is no deal other than The Deal that the government is proposed to recommend?

    So the Parliament votes that she must revoke (I’m not sure there is s majority for that)

    And May - knowing that it would break her party - makes it a vote of confidence in her government

    Once again, I don’t think the Commons would bring down the government

    So we end up withDeal or No Deal

    At which point I think the Commons votes for the Deal.

    What am I missing?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,254
    edited February 2019

    Skim-read that as a big Farage rally in Madrid. Which would be a bit weird.

    And if it ever comes to pass very concerning.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited February 2019
    kinabalu said:

    Many in the Welsh Labour movement had their ethics underpinned by Methodism. Maybe that made them different?

    Methodism is certainly something that I think of as Neil Kinnocky and Welsh, similarly Presbyterianism (gosh had to google that spelling) I think of as being Gordon Browny and Scottish. He was the 'Son of the Mance' after all.

    But I don't know whether that is right. Perhaps these traditions are equally strong in parts of England.
    I think Kinnock is a non-believer.
  • Charles said:

    How does it work if the Commons instructs the government to “take no deal off the tsble@?

    May scurries off to Brussels and comes back and days there is no deal other than The Deal that the government is proposed to recommend?

    So the Parliament votes that she must revoke (I’m not sure there is s majority for that)

    And May - knowing that it would break her party - makes it a vote of confidence in her government

    Once again, I don’t think the Commons would bring down the government

    So we end up withDeal or No Deal

    At which point I think the Commons votes for the Deal.

    What am I missing?

    This is the idiocy of the whole question of voting to take No Deal off the table. Like the advisors wanting Canute to stop the tide coming in, Parliament would be asking May to do something that, at least under some circumstances, is not possible. If they want to make sure No Deal is off the table then they have to vote for Deal.
  • Charles said:

    How does it work if the Commons instructs the government to “take no deal off the tsble@?

    May scurries off to Brussels and comes back and days there is no deal other than The Deal that the government is proposed to recommend?

    So the Parliament votes that she must revoke (I’m not sure there is s majority for that)

    And May - knowing that it would break her party - makes it a vote of confidence in her government

    Once again, I don’t think the Commons would bring down the government

    So we end up withDeal or No Deal

    At which point I think the Commons votes for the Deal.

    What am I missing?

    May can't make a vote on anything a vote of confidence, other than a specific motion of confidence under the FTPA.

    It is one of the reasons she should repeal FTPA.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Charles said:

    So the Parliament votes that she must revoke (I’m not sure there is s majority for that)

    In a straight choice with No deal, I suspect there is.
This discussion has been closed.