As an aside, thanks for all the good suggestions of family boardgames and the boardgamegeek site which I wasn't aware of.
Being in need of some new games I read a bit about each suggestion. Not really being into fantasy in a huge way, I have whittled down to the following:
Ticket to Ride, Codenames 7Wonders, Viticulture, Pandemic Thunderbirds
... which all look like fun.
Thanks!
Ticket to Ride is an excellent gateway game, especially as it comes with the expansion as standard nowadays.
The Big Cities variant is the best way to play once you have a grasp on the basics.
Ok cheers. Hopefully it's easy to learn, our family games nights tend to be alcohol-fueled affairs!
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
https://youtu.be/PcKoYGNj0BU Brothers and sisters When they insist we're just not good enough Well we know better Just look him in his eyes and say We're gonna do it anyway We're gonna do it anyway
A load of "A" citizens discussing the legal implications. All the CDE peoples will say "If they do not want our money."
It is the whole problem of the remain campaign it is aimed at gullible AB's whereas the CDE's with their very sensitive bullshit detectors are talking a totally different language. When remain understands this it may have a chance,
It's a legitimate point and I can assure you I am very aware of it. But ultimately this is an academic argument about whether it was right or wrong to leave, or right or wrong to go no deal. Nobody except some cabinet ministers (Gove? Williamson?) and some parts of the Civil service is really preparing for "no deal", and it is this blithe assumption that everything will be alright on the night that is annoying the arse out of me. This whole debate has exposed a stratum of wealthy and/or old people who have lots of money, are self-indulgent, silly or even actively malevolent, and are perfectly capable of driving the economy off a cliff because "it's only money". I didn't know the country was run by such people and I have lost a lot of faith in them as a result.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
I particularly cherish the poster in here who was loud in his condemnation of the deal and all it implied, before being forced to admit he hadn't read it and had no idea what was and wasn't in it. In particular, he simply refused to accept that it led to the end of CJEU jurisdiction even when the relevant clauses were quoted to him.
He the doubled down by saying nobody had read the withdrawal agreement and those of us who had must be liars, even as we quoted from it.
I do think that people conflate 'the withdrawal agreement' with 'the deal'. The WA is temporary, we have no idea what 'the deal' will look like, other than it will be 'an ambitious FTA'.
The idea that the EU, big as it is, could keep the UK as a vassal state in perpetuity is bonkers. People are being overly paranoid.
Brexit means Brexit. The WA is Brexit.
The irony is she’s carrying out a rock hard Brexit...
I do think that people conflate 'the withdrawal agreement' with 'the deal'. The WA is temporary, we have no idea what 'the deal' will look like, other than it will be 'an ambitious FTA'.
The idea that the EU, big as it is, could keep the UK as a vassal state in perpetuity is bonkers. People are being overly paranoid.
Brexit means Brexit. The WA is Brexit.
The whole vassal state concept is bonkers. Anyone would think we are talking about Sparta and the Helots the way some people are going on.
Good news for Wales - the severn crossing tolls are being removed after 50 years and by Easter both bridges will be at motorway standard.
Thank you Alun Cairns, you absolute god! Paid my last toll yesterday, and for old times sake Highways England detoured me over the old bridge.
Of course it takes a conservative Secretary of State for Wales to do the right thing for business and the Welsh economy. Not that lot of Corbynistas now in Cardiff
I’m no Corbynista (I’ve only voted Labour once in my life), but Lee Waters, Drakeford’s new appointee for deputy economy and transport (which, in practice, means transport) is outstanding.
And the UK SoS for Transport? Chris Grayling. Only ever described as “outstanding” when followed by the word “muppet”.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
For me, our relationship with the EU is the neverending story. It's another chapter in our millenia-old dance with the continental powers. There's never going to be some completely settled equilibrium, more a cyclical oscillation.
We don't know whether either the UK or the EU will last (though I have no ill-wish against the EU), but there will, ahem, always be an England, something that looks very much like France and so on.
So, let's sign the WA, start talking about the next phase, and who knows, once passions have cooled we may very well end up as an associate in a truly two-speed Europe, or even rejoin in a decade or so. It's really in our hands whatever happens.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
I particularly cherish the poster in here who was loud in his condemnation of the deal and all it implied, before being forced to admit he hadn't read it and had no idea what was and wasn't in it. In particular, he simply refused to accept that it led to the end of CJEU jurisdiction even when the relevant clauses were quoted to him.
He the doubled down by saying nobody had read the withdrawal agreement and those of us who had must be liars.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
For me, our relationship with the EU is the neverending story. It's another chapter in our millenia-old dance with the continental powers. There's never going to be some completely settled equilibrium, more a cyclical oscillation.
We don't know whether either the UK or the EU will last (though I have no ill-wish against the EU), but there will, ahem, always be an England, something that looks very much like France and so on.
So, let's sign the WA, start talking about the next phase, and who knows, once passions have cooled we may very well end up as an associate in a truly two-speed Europe, or even rejoin in a decade or so. It's really in our hands whatever happens.
Yes, that is why, although I remain a Remainer, I'd support May's Deal.
But it does look dead in the water barring some improbable unexpected event.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
Lololololololol
Talking of Project Fear, you are its chief exponent. Figured out the assumptions behind Hammond’s forecasts yet so that you can say why they should be believed. No - thought not.
Good news for Wales - the severn crossing tolls are being removed after 50 years and by Easter both bridges will be at motorway standard.
Thank you Alun Cairns, you absolute god! Paid my last toll yesterday, and for old times sake Highways England detoured me over the old bridge.
Of course it takes a conservative Secretary of State for Wales to do the right thing for business and the Welsh economy. Not that lot of Corbynistas now in Cardiff
I’m no Corbynista (I’ve only voted Labour once in my life), but Lee Waters, Drakeford’s new appointee for deputy economy and transport (which, in practice, means transport) is outstanding.
And the UK SoS for Transport? Chris Grayling. Only ever described as “outstanding” when followed by the word “muppet”.
Mark Drakeford has already built up huge goodwill with his new cabinet. He's sacked Alun Davies. Much might be forgiven for a man who sees through that reptile.
Good news for Wales - the severn crossing tolls are being removed after 50 years and by Easter both bridges will be at motorway standard.
Thank you Alun Cairns, you absolute god! Paid my last toll yesterday, and for old times sake Highways England detoured me over the old bridge.
Of course it takes a conservative Secretary of State for Wales to do the right thing for business and the Welsh economy. Not that lot of Corbynistas now in Cardiff
I’m no Corbynista (I’ve only voted Labour once in my life), but Lee Waters, Drakeford’s new appointee for deputy economy and transport (which, in practice, means transport) is outstanding.
And the UK SoS for Transport? Chris Grayling. Only ever described as “outstanding” when followed by the word “muppet”.
Chris Grayling reminds me of a Stuart Monarch's empty headed favourite who has been given the post of minister as a reward for services rendered. Only without the benefit of any sodomy being involved.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
https://youtu.be/PcKoYGNj0BU Brothers and sisters When they insist we're just not good enough Well we know better Just look him in his eyes and say We're gonna do it anyway We're gonna do it anyway
“The higher you build your (trade) barriers”
You need help that only the medical profession can provide.
As an aside, thanks for all the good suggestions of family boardgames and the boardgamegeek site which I wasn't aware of.
Being in need of some new games I read a bit about each suggestion. Not really being into fantasy in a huge way, I have whittled down to the following:
Ticket to Ride, Codenames 7Wonders, Viticulture, Pandemic Thunderbirds
... which all look like fun.
Thanks!
Ticket to Ride is an excellent gateway game, especially as it comes with the expansion as standard nowadays.
The Big Cities variant is the best way to play once you have a grasp on the basics.
Ok cheers. Hopefully it's easy to learn, our family games nights tend to be alcohol-fueled affairs!
Very easy to learn. That or Codenames would be my only recommendation for game you need to teach people who aren't fully paying attention.
As an aside, thanks for all the good suggestions of family boardgames and the boardgamegeek site which I wasn't aware of.
Being in need of some new games I read a bit about each suggestion. Not really being into fantasy in a huge way, I have whittled down to the following:
Ticket to Ride, Codenames 7Wonders, Viticulture, Pandemic Thunderbirds
... which all look like fun.
Thanks!
Ticket to ride is the winner for a fun relaxed Xmas game. The various variants add more challenge for those that enjoy it. 7Wonders is very well crafted but is the sort of game you need to play a few times just to understand what's going on. Viticulture looks like an "I'd like to design a game about making wine" game but is actually clever and well balanced, with interesting choices every turn. I didn't get on the with "everyone against the board" contest of Pandemic, but I know others who love it. I agree with the poster who mentioned Catan. Of the others I mentioned, Dominion is a different sort of game that will appeal to card players. I have a soft spot for Navegador which is the right length for an Xmas game and a good mix of accessibility and challenge. El Grande is an older classic but one I keep returning to; the idea is simple and it is a very clever game. A very simple playable game for all the family is Campinale. Agricola and its sequel/variants often get voted the best board game ever, but they are complex and long, with a bewildering variety of cards with the choice of strategy depending heavily on the cards you draw, and will appeal only to dedicated gamers.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
We're going to be negotiating an FTA. They are going to have their list of ludicrous demands, we'll have ours. Compromises will be made, and purists are not going to like them. But in the meantime, yes we can ignore Macron and the Spanish et al.
As to the mobility framework, we should be happy to have 'easy' movement of people. I like European workers, they're an asset to this country. But we will ultimately be in control of numbers (though I don't think people have worked out that this is not synonymous with 'lower immigration', Javid's dog whistles notwithstanding).
People (I assert) want to see a fair immigration system that makes it simple and easy for the immigrants we need and want to enter, feel welcome and contribute, while being fucking ultra-difficult for those we don't.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
We're going to be negotiating an FTA. They are going to have their list of ludicrous demands, we'll have ours. Compromises will be made, and purists are not going to like them.
As to the mobility framework, we should be happy to have 'easy' movement of people. I like European workers, they're an asset to this country. But we will ultimately be in control of numbers (though I don't think people have worked out that this is not synonymous with 'lower immigration', Javid's dog whistles notwithstanding).
People (I assert) want to see a fair immigration system that makes it simple and easy for the immigrants we need and want to enter, feel welcome and contribute, while being fucking ultra-difficult for those we don't.
What compromises have the EU made thus far and how confident are you the U.K. Gov can actually negotiate ?
Good news for Wales - the severn crossing tolls are being removed after 50 years and by Easter both bridges will be at motorway standard.
Thank you Alun Cairns, you absolute god! Paid my last toll yesterday, and for old times sake Highways England detoured me over the old bridge.
Of course it takes a conservative Secretary of State for Wales to do the right thing for business and the Welsh economy. Not that lot of Corbynistas now in Cardiff
I’m no Corbynista (I’ve only voted Labour once in my life), but Lee Waters, Drakeford’s new appointee for deputy economy and transport (which, in practice, means transport) is outstanding.
And the UK SoS for Transport? Chris Grayling. Only ever described as “outstanding” when followed by the word “muppet”.
Is that why the new 15 year rail Wales franchise negotiated by labour is in chaos and disarray
Good news for Wales - the severn crossing tolls are being removed after 50 years and by Easter both bridges will be at motorway standard.
Thank you Alun Cairns, you absolute god! Paid my last toll yesterday, and for old times sake Highways England detoured me over the old bridge.
Of course it takes a conservative Secretary of State for Wales to do the right thing for business and the Welsh economy. Not that lot of Corbynistas now in Cardiff
I’m no Corbynista (I’ve only voted Labour once in my life), but Lee Waters, Drakeford’s new appointee for deputy economy and transport (which, in practice, means transport) is outstanding.
And the UK SoS for Transport? Chris Grayling. Only ever described as “outstanding” when followed by the word “muppet”.
Is that why the new 15 year rail Wales franchise negotiated by labour is in chaos and disarray
I'm disappointed, Big G. Why wouldn't you go for, 'is a complete train wreck?'
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
Hahahahahaha!
"The easiest deal in the world"
"They need us more than we need them"
Hahaha!
And if revoke A 50 we’re going to live happily ever after are we. The Muppet Show makes more sense - and have better punch lines
Membership of the European Union has never caused me a moment of unhappiness. I will miss some of the benefits if we actually do leave - though as we still haven't worked out how to do so and the time left is less than the gestation period of a chinchilla that has to be doubted.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Can you explain to me this obsession Leavers have with freedom of movement? You do realise that it cuts both ways right? You also lose your freedom of movement? Explain why you would want that.
As an aside, thanks for all the good suggestions of family boardgames and the boardgamegeek site which I wasn't aware of.
Being in need of some new games I read a bit about each suggestion. Not really being into fantasy in a huge way, I have whittled down to the following:
Ticket to Ride, Codenames 7Wonders, Viticulture, Pandemic Thunderbirds
... which all look like fun.
Thanks!
Ticket to Ride is an excellent gateway game, especially as it comes with the expansion as standard nowadays.
The Big Cities variant is the best way to play once you have a grasp on the basics.
Ok cheers. Hopefully it's easy to learn, our family games nights tend to be alcohol-fueled affairs!
Very easy to learn. That or Codenames would be my only recommendation for game you need to teach people who aren't fully paying attention.
Ah, great - as it happens, those are the two I have just ordered while keeping within my £50 budget
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
I am, I confess, having some issues understanding your reasoning.
It seems to be: forecasts of instant doom, made by Osborne and the Treasury, to occur following the referendum were false.
Therefore everything will be fine following No Deal crashout, and all the industry concerns from all sectors across the piece can be safely ignored and what you want to believe will, in fact, be what happens. You don't seem to have ever addressed any of the issues raised, merely shouting about false forecasts in the past.
I'm genuinely worried. Put my fears to rest - please. And not with a fairy tale of "I don't want to believe that so it won't happen," because that's all that's coming across at the moment.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
Lololololololol
Talking of Project Fear, you are its chief exponent. Figured out the assumptions behind Hammond’s forecasts yet so that you can say why they should be believed. No - thought not.
Channel 4 always happy to lend a helping hand
no mobile phones abroad (debunked)
no air travel (debunked)
car industry shutting down (oh wait - silly channel 4, that is the usual annual shut down)
just in time supply chains destroyed (remind me, how does a just in time supply chain where the supplier is outside the EU work then)?
No one is saying there will not be challenges but can we please deal in facts.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
I am, I confess, having some issues understanding your reasoning.
It seems to be: forecasts of instant doom, made by Osborne and the Treasury, to occur following the referendum were false.
Therefore everything will be fine following No Deal crashout, and all the industry concerns from all sectors across the piece can be safely ignored and what you want to believe will, in fact, be what happens. You don't seem to have ever addressed any of the issues raised, merely shouting about false forecasts in the past.
I'm genuinely worried. Put my fears to rest - please. And not with a fairy tale of "I don't want to believe that so it won't happen," because that's all that's coming across at the moment.
It's very worrying - so many leavers on many forums have convinced themselves that because the world didn't collapse after the vote, they can disregard as 'fake news' every single warning about no deal, even those coming from those with skin (their livelihoods) in the game and no axe to grind. In this, Brexit and Trumpism really do have a lot in common.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
Hahahahahaha!
"The easiest deal in the world"
"They need us more than we need them"
Hahaha!
And if revoke A 50 we’re going to live happily ever after are we. The Muppet Show makes more sense - and have better punch lines
Membership of the European Union has never caused me a moment of unhappiness. I will miss some of the benefits if we actually do leave - though as we still haven't worked out how to do so and the time left is less than the gestation period of a chinchilla that has to be doubted.
It's actually caused me a considerable number, particularly over the BSE crisis which caused my family severe financial hardship. As for its administrators, the less said the better. The only people in government who make Trump look vaguely honest and competent.
That doesn't mean on balance that it's a bad thing. It has potential.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Can you explain to me this obsession Leavers have with freedom of movement? You do realise that it cuts both ways right? You also lose your freedom of movement? Explain why you would want that.
Immigration was also a concern of plenty of remainers, it isn't a leave only concern
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
So you don't believe any UK government would end free movement. Well what's the problem then, leave or remain we apparently aren't losing or gaining anything on that score.
As an aside, thanks for all the good suggestions of family boardgames and the boardgamegeek site which I wasn't aware of.
Being in need of some new games I read a bit about each suggestion. Not really being into fantasy in a huge way, I have whittled down to the following:
Ticket to Ride, Codenames 7Wonders, Viticulture, Pandemic Thunderbirds
... which all look like fun.
Thanks!
Ticket to Ride is an excellent gateway game, especially as it comes with the expansion as standard nowadays.
The Big Cities variant is the best way to play once you have a grasp on the basics.
Ok cheers. Hopefully it's easy to learn, our family games nights tend to be alcohol-fueled affairs!
Very easy to learn. That or Codenames would be my only recommendation for game you need to teach people who aren't fully paying attention.
Ah, great - as it happens, those are the two I have just ordered while keeping within my £50 budget
Agreed. On no account try Agricola, 7Wonders and the others only I mentioned (except Campinale) when players are under the influence!
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
I am, I confess, having some issues understanding your reasoning.
It seems to be: forecasts of instant doom, made by Osborne and the Treasury, to occur following the referendum were false.
Therefore everything will be fine following No Deal crashout, and all the industry concerns from all sectors across the piece can be safely ignored and what you want to believe will, in fact, be what happens. You don't seem to have ever addressed any of the issues raised, merely shouting about false forecasts in the past.
I'm genuinely worried. Put my fears to rest - please. And not with a fairy tale of "I don't want to believe that so it won't happen," because that's all that's coming across at the moment.
Articulate why you have such fears in a comprehensible manner rather than simply regurgitate Hammonds reincarnation of Project Fear.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
I am, I confess, having some issues understanding your reasoning.
It seems to be: forecasts of instant doom, made by Osborne and the Treasury, to occur following the referendum were false.
Therefore everything will be fine following No Deal crashout, and all the industry concerns from all sectors across the piece can be safely ignored and what you want to believe will, in fact, be what happens. You don't seem to have ever addressed any of the issues raised, merely shouting about false forecasts in the past.
I'm genuinely worried. Put my fears to rest - please. And not with a fairy tale of "I don't want to believe that so it won't happen," because that's all that's coming across at the moment.
It's very worrying - so many leavers on many forums have convinced themselves that because the world didn't collapse after the vote, they can disregard as 'fake news' every single warning about no deal, even those coming from those with skin (their livelihoods) in the game and no axe to grind. In this, Brexit and Trumpism really do have a lot in common.
I've always been of the view that people always call any negative story 'scaremongering' or 'project fear', but sometimes things do have negative consequences (even if these are overcome by the positives, as I had naively hoped would be the case with Leave) and so no matter how much people get outraged it is not unreasonable to bring up those points. You still have to assess whether the project fear claims are credible, not simply believe them wholesale, nor dismiss them wholesale either.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
We're going to be negotiating an FTA. They are going to have their list of ludicrous demands, we'll have ours. Compromises will be made, and purists are not going to like them.
People (I assert) want to see a fair immigration system that makes it simple and easy for the immigrants we need and want to enter, feel welcome and contribute, while being fucking ultra-difficult for those we don't.
What compromises have the EU made thus far and how confident are you the U.K. Gov can actually negotiate ?
The terms of the backstop itself are an EU compromise; NI will be in cakeatery land; it's just a shame their economy is so much a basketcase as to make capitalising on it difficult.
They've compromised on our Cypriot presence (which they could have made very difficult for us, if they chose), and they've compromised on the payments owed in the three main areas of UK financial liability (remember the original figure being bandied about was ~100bn).
I don't think this government has negotiated well, but that's more cockup than conspiracy, in my view. The Tories still don't have a common approach agreed at cabinet level, which is unbelievable on even a moments reflection. They'll have to get better, no?
I don't think the WA is great - it's a curate's egg. But that should have been expected. But it achieves step 1. Brexit.
For example what happens to the UK-US aviation agreement that is currently via the European Open Skies agreement. Repeat for every other country in the world outside the European Union.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
er.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
We're going to be negotiating an FTA. They are going to have their list of ludicrous demands, we'll have ours. Compromises will be made, and purists are not going to like them. But in the meantime, yes we can ignore Macron and the Spanish et al.
As to the mobility framework, we should be happy to have 'easy' movement of people. I like European workers, they're an asset to this country. But we will ultimately be in control of numbers (though I don't think people have worked out that this is not synonymous with 'lower immigration', Javid's dog whistles notwithstanding).
People (I assert) want to see a fair immigration system that makes it simple and easy for the immigrants we need and want to enter, feel welcome and contribute, while being fucking ultra-difficult for those we don't.
And I would put money on our conceding on fish. Despite its totemic significance, it employs hardly anyone and matters at least as much to other EU nations such as Spain. We export most of the fish we catch, as Brits don't like Herring and Mackeral, and without easy access to EU and Scandinavian markets our industry is f***ed. Particularly as the sort of fish we like from our 'traditional' chippies are mostly imported from the EU.
Bottom line is we need more on trade from them than we have to give, and will need to play concessions like fishing for all they are worth.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
https://youtu.be/PcKoYGNj0BU Brothers and sisters When they insist we're just not good enough Well we know better Just look him in his eyes and say We're gonna do it anyway We're gonna do it anyway
“The higher you build your (trade) barriers”
It's going to take a bit more than singing Rule Britania or similar very loudly to get us out of this mess. Still when it's about all you have left in the locker no harm in giving it a go I suppose.
For example what happens to the UK-US aviation agreement that is currently via the European Open Skies agreement. Repeat for every other country in the world outside the European Union.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Can you explain to me this obsession Leavers have with freedom of movement? You do realise that it cuts both ways right? You also lose your freedom of movement? Explain why you would want that.
Immigration was also a concern of plenty of remainers, it isn't a leave only concern
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
So you don't believe any UK government would end free movement. Well what's the problem then, leave or remain we apparently aren't losing or gaining anything on that score.
I don’t believe this Gov would not give in to the EU on FOM to get a trade deal, no. Why would I ? The U.K. has conceded pretty much everything the EU wanted for no quid pro quo thus far.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
Hahahahahaha!
"The easiest deal in the world"
"They need us more than we need them"
Hahaha!
And if revoke A 50 we’re going to live happily ever after are we. The Muppet Show makes more sense - and have better punch lines
Membership of the European Union has never caused me a moment of unhappiness. I will miss some of the benefits if we actually do leave - though as we still haven't worked out how to do so and the time left is less than the gestation period of a chinchilla that has to be doubted.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
I am, I confess, having some issues understanding your reasoning.
It seems to be: forecasts of instant doom, made by Osborne and the Treasury, to occur following the referendum were false.
Therefore everything will be fine following No Deal crashout, and all the industry concerns from all sectors across the piece can be safely ignored and what you want to believe will, in fact, be what happens. You don't seem to have ever addressed any of the issues raised, merely shouting about false forecasts in the past.
I'm genuinely worried. Put my fears to rest - please. And not with a fairy tale of "I don't want to believe that so it won't happen," because that's all that's coming across at the moment.
It's very worrying - so many leavers on many forums have convinced themselves that because the world didn't collapse after the vote, they can disregard as 'fake news' every single warning about no deal, even those coming from those with skin (their livelihoods) in the game and no axe to grind. In this, Brexit and Trumpism really do have a lot in common.
I've always been of the view that people always call any negative story 'scaremongering' or 'project fear', but sometimes things do have negative consequences (even if these are overcome by the positives, as I had naively hoped would be the case with Leave) and so no matter how much people get outraged it is not unreasonable to bring up those points. You still have to assess whether the project fear claims are credible, not simply believe them wholesale, nor dismiss them wholesale either.
True, but you start with evidence, and listening to those who know. For example the interviews with British beef and sheep farmers broadcast this lunchtime on R4; some very worried people.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
What is it about freedom of movement you hate so much? It’s been great for many people and many businesses. Getting talent from across Europe, learning from one another. Borders are for dweebs.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
I am, I confess, having some issues understanding your reasoning.
It seems to be: forecasts of instant doom, made by Osborne and the Treasury, to occur following the referendum were false.
Therefore everything will be fine following No Deal crashout, and all the industry concerns from all sectors across the piece can be safely ignored and what you want to believe will, in fact, be what happens. You don't seem to have ever addressed any of the issues raised, merely shouting about false forecasts in the past.
I'm genuinely worried. Put my fears to rest - please. And not with a fairy tale of "I don't want to believe that so it won't happen," because that's all that's coming across at the moment.
Articulate why you have such fears in a comprehensible manner rather than simply regurgitate Hammonds reincarnation of Project Fear.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
t.
er.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
.
We're going to be negotiating an FTA. They are going to have their list of ludicrous demands, we'll have ours. Compromises will be made, and purists are not going to like them. But in the meantime, yes we can ignore Macron and the Spanish et al.
As to the mobility framework, we should be happy to have 'easy' movement of people. I like European workers, they're an asset to this country. But we will ultimately be in control of numbers (though I don't think people have worked out that this is not synonymous with 'lower immigration', Javid's dog whistles notwithstanding).
People (I assert) want to see a fair immigration system that makes it simple and easy for the immigrants we need and want to enter, feel welcome and contribute, while being fucking ultra-difficult for those we don't.
And I would put money on our conceding on fish. Despite its totemic significance, it employs hardly anyone and matters at least as much to other EU nations such as Spain. We export most of the fish we catch, as Brits don't like Herring and Mackeral, and without easy access to EU and Scandinavian markets our industry is f***ed. Particularly as the sort of fish we like from our 'traditional' chippies are mostly imported from the EU.
All very true. I have some connections with the fishing industry and have a Lib Dem voting relative who went for leave on the grounds of what I have for decades assumed to be justified grievances over the common fisheries policy. I was quite surprised when I researched it and discovered just what you just said - for the English fishing industry we get an extremely good set of trading arrangements with the status quo. I think it is a bit different for the Scots but I gave up at that stage. I haven't shared my findings with my father in law yet - but if there's a second referendum there's a nice low hanging fruit convert.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
Lololololololol
Talking of Project Fear, you are its chief exponent. Figured out the assumptions behind Hammond’s forecasts yet so that you can say why they should be believed. No - thought not.
Channel 4 always happy to lend a helping hand
no mobile phones abroad (debunked)
no air travel (debunked)
car industry shutting down (oh wait - silly channel 4, that is the usual annual shut down)
just in time supply chains destroyed (remind me, how does a just in time supply chain where the supplier is outside the EU work then)?
No one is saying there will not be challenges but can we please deal in facts.
It's a fact that a lot of our trade with non-EU currently relies on the EU's own trade agreements and recognition of EU standards, etc, which we would lose on 1 April. It's not just a question of goods and services to and from the Eu.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Can you explain to me this obsession Leavers have with freedom of movement? You do realise that it cuts both ways right? You also lose your freedom of movement? Explain why you would want that.
Immigration was also a concern of plenty of remainers, it isn't a leave only concern
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
So you don't believe any UK government would end free movement. Well what's the problem then, leave or remain we apparently aren't losing or gaining anything on that score.
I don’t believe this Gov would not give in to the EU on FOM to get a trade deal, no. Why would I ? The U.K. has conceded pretty much everything the EU wanted for no quid pro quo thus far.
Let’s all hope it does give in. Freedom of movement is splendid. Why are you so obsessed with ending it?
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
er.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
We're going to be negotiating an FTA. They are going to have their list of ludicrous demands, we'll have ours. Compromises will be made, and purists are not going to like them. But in the meantime, yes we can ignore Macron and the Spanish et al.
And I would put money on our conceding on fish. Despite its totemic significance, it employs hardly anyone and matters at least as much to other EU nations such as Spain. We export most of the fish we catch, as Brits don't like Herring and Mackeral, and without easy access to EU and Scandinavian markets our industry is f***ed. Particularly as the sort of fish we like from our 'traditional' chippies are mostly imported from the EU.
Bottom line is we need more on trade from them than we have to give, and will need to play concessions like fishing for all they are worth.
It's totemic for some *shrug*. On the other hand, we have a honking great trade deficit with them. As I've said before, I don't really understand the fetish for trade agreements. We do very well with the US based on no more than the old GATT accords. If you weren't around yesterday evening, I posted an EU report that assessed the total incremental value of the Single Market (which I assume we can agree to be the gold standard for trading agreements) was ~1.7% over a 15 year period.
Still, we'll need to have something to stop the Japanese et al shifting their manufacturing to the continent. Let's see what happens.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Can you explain to me this obsession Leavers have with freedom of movement? You do realise that it cuts both ways right? You also lose your freedom of movement? Explain why you would want that.
Immigration was also a concern of plenty of remainers, it isn't a leave only concern
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
So you don't believe any UK government would end free movement. Well what's the problem then, leave or remain we apparently aren't losing or gaining anything on that score.
I don’t believe this Gov would not give in to the EU on FOM to get a trade deal, no. Why would I ? The U.K. has conceded pretty much everything the EU wanted for no quid pro quo thus far.
Let’s all hope it does give in. Freedom of movement is splendid. Why are you so obsessed with ending it?
Because it’s led to a cheap labour, unskilled economy, the ghettoisation of areas of our cities and horrendous burdens on our infrastructure.
These top cyclists are tough determined cookies. To put it in perspective a bit, as an pretty ordinary 80 year old with maybe 300,000 cycled miles in my legs, I can deliver something like 200 watts to my turbo trainer for 30 minutes say, but guys like Thomas can put out 400 to 600 watts longer.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
Hahahahahaha!
"The easiest deal in the world"
"They need us more than we need them"
Hahaha!
And if revoke A 50 we’re going to live happily ever after are we. The Muppet Show makes more sense - and have better punch lines
Membership of the European Union has never caused me a moment of unhappiness. I will miss some of the benefits if we actually do leave - though as we still haven't worked out how to do so and the time left is less than the gestation period of a chinchilla that has to be doubted.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
What is it about freedom of movement you hate so much? It’s been great for many people and many businesses. Getting talent from across Europe, learning from one another. Borders are for dweebs.
I have been an ex-pat working abroad. Filling in a few forms is not that difficult. Immigration apartheid on the other hand is abhorrent.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
What is it about freedom of movement you hate so much? It’s been great for many people and many businesses. Getting talent from across Europe, learning from one another. Borders are for dweebs.
I hate the way it makes us discriminate against Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
I am, I confess, having some issues understanding your reasoning.
It seems to be: forecasts of instant doom, made by Osborne and the Treasury, to occur following the referendum were false.
Therefore everything will be fine following No Deal crashout, and all the industry concerns from all sectors across the piece can be safely ignored and what you want to believe will, in fact, be what happens. You don't seem to have ever addressed any of the issues raised, merely shouting about false forecasts in the past.
I'm genuinely worried. Put my fears to rest - please. And not with a fairy tale of "I don't want to believe that so it won't happen," because that's all that's coming across at the moment.
Articulate why you have such fears in a comprehensible manner rather than simply regurgitate Hammonds reincarnation of Project Fear.
I am not a subscriber but if it’s Ivan Rogers speech, I’ve already read it. Not sure a former ambassador is the most reliable guide to economic consequences of any particular course of action.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
What is it about freedom of movement you hate so much? It’s been great for many people and many businesses. Getting talent from across Europe, learning from one another. Borders are for dweebs.
I hate the way it makes us discriminate against Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians.
So why not extend it to those countries and others? The fact that some countries are excluded is a poor reason to end it!
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
Well, of course any future government could agree that, even after your desired No Deal exit. In fact it's probably more likely with your No Deal agreement.
At least with May's Deal the UK could just sit in the backstop and enjoy CU benefits for no fees and with no FoM.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
Hahahahahaha!
"The easiest deal in the world"
"They need us more than we need them"
Hahaha!
And if revoke A 50 we’re going to live happily ever after are we. The Muppet Show makes more sense - and have better punch lines
Membership of the European Union has never caused me a moment of unhappiness. I will miss some of the benefits if we actually do leave - though as we still haven't worked out how to do so and the time left is less than the gestation period of a chinchilla that has to be doubted.
Great - but we voted to Leave
What's the weather like in Moscow Andy?
Wouldn’t know but it’s raining hard in Hampshire if you’re interested.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
What is it about freedom of movement you hate so much? It’s been great for many people and many businesses. Getting talent from across Europe, learning from one another. Borders are for dweebs.
I hate the way it makes us discriminate against Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians.
It absolutely doesn't. We choose to discriminate against those people because we can and because the EU doesn't prevent us from doing so
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
What is it about freedom of movement you hate so much? It’s been great for many people and many businesses. Getting talent from across Europe, learning from one another. Borders are for dweebs.
I hate the way it makes us discriminate against Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians.
So why not extend it to those countries and others? The fact that some countries are excluded is a poor reason to end it!
Extend it!
Yes, let's aim for a population of 150 million. Brilliant plan.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
.
I have been an ex-pat working abroad. Filling in a few forms is not that difficult. Immigration apartheid on the other hand is abhorrent.
So extend FOM. I have had (and lost) a great NZ employee. I would extend it, not retract it. That’s cutting your nose off to spite your face.
What is it about freedom of movement that Leavers dislike so much? Why would they wish themselves to be less free.
It’s been a fabulous addition to business life. People from across Europe learning from each other, improving companies.
I've been moving around the globe since I was 25 (58 now), including Europe and the Americas. I don't understand the obsession with FoM. It's lovely for young itinerants with no dependants or homes, but for any family person emigration/migration is not something you do on a whim, and the amount of paperwork saved is minimal. So, for me, Freedom of Movement is a completely theoretical construct. I could move to Slovakia tomorrow, hoorah! All I need to do is spend several tens of thousands of pounds uprooting my family and I'm gtg.
The UK diaspora is overwhelmingly within the Anglosphere; perhaps that will change, but I don't see much sign of that.
Ultimately, FoM requires me to acquiesce to the creation of a Federal Europe. I'll take work permits and avoid that (for me) undesirable outcome.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
.
I have been an ex-pat working abroad. Filling in a few forms is not that difficult. Immigration apartheid on the other hand is abhorrent.
So extend FOM. I have had (and lost) a great NZ employee. I would extend it, not retract it. That’s cutting your nose off to spite your face.
What is it about freedom of movement that Leavers dislike so much? Why would they wish themselves to be less free.
It’s been a fabulous addition to business life. People from across Europe learning from each other, improving companies.
I've been moving around the globe since I was 25 (58 now), including Europe and the Americas. I don't understand the obsession with FoM. It's lovely for young itinerants with no dependants or homes, but for any family person emigration/migration is not something you do on a whim, and the amount of paperwork saved is minimal.
The UK diaspora is overwhelmingly within the Anglosphere; perhaps that will change, but I don't see much sign of that.
Ultimately, FoM requires me to acquiesce to the creation of a Federal Europe. I'll take work permits and avoid that (for me) undesirable outcome.
Er no. It really doesn’t. There are several European countries that enjoy FOM who are not even in the EU. Leavers’ ultra weak logic exposed here.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
Well, of course any future government could agree that, even after your desired No Deal exit. In fact it's probably more likely with your No Deal agreement.
At least with May's Deal the UK could just sit in the backstop and enjoy CU benefits for no fees and with no FoM.
If we wanted that we would just stay in the EU. We voted to Leave.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Yet "no deal" give us even less...
Freedom.
I believe the correct PB construction is Freeeedom...
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
.
I have been an ex-pat working abroad. Filling in a few forms is not that difficult. Immigration apartheid on the other hand is abhorrent.
So extend FOM. I have had (and lost) a great NZ employee. I would extend it, not retract it. That’s cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Great - but we voted to leave and stop it.
Which May's Deal would do. Sadly though for you, it looks like your extreme Brexiteer comrades are going to to blow it and we'll be Remaining after all.
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
Dweebs.
I hate the way it makes us discriminate against Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians.
So why not extend it to those countries and others? The fact that some countries are excluded is a poor reason to end it!
Extend it!
Yes, let's aim for a population of 150 million. Brilliant plan.
About six minutes ago you were lamenting the labour barriers on the Anzac nations. Make your bloody mind up man!
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
Well, of course any future government could agree that, even after your desired No Deal exit. In fact it's probably more likely with your No Deal agreement.
At least with May's Deal the UK could just sit in the backstop and enjoy CU benefits for no fees and with no FoM.
If we wanted that we would just stay in the EU. We voted to Leave.
Well, I suspect you may get the chance to vote for it again.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
Hahahahahaha!
"The easiest deal in the world"
"They need us more than we need them"
Hahaha!
And if revoke A 50 we’re going to live happily ever after are we. The Muppet Show makes more sense - and have better punch lines
Membership of the European Union has never caused me a moment of unhappiness. I will miss some of the benefits if we actually do leave - though as we still haven't worked out how to do so and the time left is less than the gestation period of a chinchilla that has to be doubted.
Great - but we voted to Leave
What's the weather like in Moscow Andy?
Wouldn’t know but it’s raining hard in Hamshire if you’re interested.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
Hahahahahaha!
"The easiest deal in the world"
"They need us more than we need them"
Hahaha!
And if revoke A 50 we’re going to live happily ever after are we. The Muppet Show makes more sense - and have better punch lines
Membership of the European Union has never caused me a moment of unhappiness. I will miss some of the benefits if we actually do leave - though as we still haven't worked out how to do so and the time left is less than the gestation period of a chinchilla that has to be doubted.
Great - but we voted to Leave
What's the weather like in Moscow Andy?
Wouldn’t know but it’s raining hard in Hamshire if you’re interested.
Good news for Wales - the severn crossing tolls are being removed after 50 years and by Easter both bridges will be at motorway standard.
Thank you Alun Cairns, you absolute god! Paid my last toll yesterday, and for old times sake Highways England detoured me over the old bridge.
Of course it takes a conservative Secretary of State for Wales to do the right thing for business and the Welsh economy. Not that lot of Corbynistas now in Cardiff
I’m no Corbynista (I’ve only voted Labour once in my life), but Lee Waters, Drakeford’s new appointee for deputy economy and transport (which, in practice, means transport) is outstanding.
And the UK SoS for Transport? Chris Grayling. Only ever described as “outstanding” when followed by the word “muppet”.
Is that why the new 15 year rail Wales franchise negotiated by labour is in chaos and disarray
I'm disappointed, Big G. Why wouldn't you go for, 'is a complete train wreck?'
I will go for your upgrade. My daughter regularly travels from Abergele/Rhyl to Bridgend and Llanelli for meetings and not only does she have to stay in a hotel overnight, she has chaotic delays and cancellations all via the new Wales government franchise
Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people? .."
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
.
I have been an ex-pat working abroad. Filling in a few forms is not that difficult. Immigration apartheid on the other hand is abhorrent.
So extend FOM. I have had (and lost) a great NZ employee. I would extend it, not retract it. That’s cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Great - but we voted to leave and stop it.
No, a very narrow majority of those who actually voted, voted to leave the EU. That was all.
What is it about freedom of movement that Leavers dislike so much? Why would they wish themselves to be less free.
It’s been a fabulous addition to business life. People from across Europe learning from each other, improving companies.
I've been moving around the globe since I was 25 (58 now), including Europe and the Americas. I don't understand the obsession with FoM. It's lovely for young itinerants with no dependants or homes, but for any family person emigration/migration is not something you do on a whim, and the amount of paperwork saved is minimal.
The UK diaspora is overwhelmingly within the Anglosphere; perhaps that will change, but I don't see much sign of that.
Ultimately, FoM requires me to acquiesce to the creation of a Federal Europe. I'll take work permits and avoid that (for me) undesirable outcome.
Er no. It really doesn’t. There are several European countries that enjoy FOM who are not even in the EU. Leavers’ ultra weak logic exposed here.
You mean Switzerland and the EEA countries, I presume. Please don't flail around with non sequiturs and accuse Leavers of illogic.
If we were in the EEA I wouldn't have a problem with Freedom of Movement, though I wouldn't care about it either. If I were in Switzerland I wouldn't have a problem with it, because Switzerland is also outside the EU's treaty structures.
However, if you're a citizen of an EU member state, you are going to be part of the drive to ever closer union. FoM is a benefit that also comes with a cost.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
Hahahahahaha!
"The easiest deal in the world"
"They need us more than we need them"
Hahaha!
And if revoke A 50 we’re going to live happily ever after are we. The Muppet Show makes more sense - and have better punch lines
Membership of the European Union has never caused me a moment of unhappiness. I will miss some of the benefits if we actually do leave - though as we still haven't worked out how to do so and the time left is less than the gestation period of a chinchilla that has to be doubted.
Great - but we voted to Leave
What's the weather like in Moscow Andy?
Wouldn’t know but it’s raining hard in Hamshire if you’re interested.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
Hahahahahaha!
"The easiest deal in the world"
"They need us more than we need them"
Hahaha!
And if revoke A 50 we’re going to live happily ever after are we. The Muppet Show makes more sense - and have better punch lines
Membership of the European Union has never caused me a moment of unhappiness. I will miss some of the benefits if we actually do leave - though as we still haven't worked out how to do so and the time left is less than the gestation period of a chinchilla that has to be doubted.
Great - but we voted to Leave
What's the weather like in Moscow Andy?
Wouldn’t know but it’s raining hard in Hamshire if you’re interested.
How is the collapse of Jaguar sales in China the fault of Brexit? Just curious......
Even the Guardian struggle to justify any Brexit connections. Imagine the shock on David Lammy's face if we remained and the car industry still moved jobs abroad. Desperate and clueless stuff.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now.
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
.
I have been an ex-pat working abroad. Filling in a few forms is not that difficult. Immigration apartheid on the other hand is abhorrent.
So extend FOM. I have had (and lost) a great NZ employee. I would extend it, not retract it. That’s cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Great - but we voted to leave and stop it.
Which May's Deal would do. Sadly though for you, it looks like your extreme Brexiteer comrades are going to to blow it and we'll be Remaining after all.
Ah yes, the Hammond labelling of all Brexit supporters as extremists. Funny how quick Remainers are to resort to insults. FOM was a big reason Leave won. There were riots in Brussels today about fears of more immigration. I don’t want riots in the UK. Ending FOM will suit me.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
Hahahahahaha!
"The easiest deal in the world"
"They need us more than we need them"
Hahaha!
And if revoke A 50 we’re going to live happily ever after are we. The Muppet Show makes more sense - and have better punch lines
Membership of the European Union has never caused me a moment of unhappiness. I will miss some of the benefits if we actually do leave - though as we still haven't worked out how to do so and the time left is less than the gestation period of a chinchilla that has to be doubted.
Great - but we voted to Leave
What's the weather like in Moscow Andy?
Wouldn’t know but it’s raining hard in Hamshire if you’re interested.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now.
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
.
I have been an ex-pat working abroad. Filling in a few forms is not that difficult. Immigration apartheid on the other hand is abhorrent.
So extend FOM. I have had (and lost) a great NZ employee. I would extend it, not retract it. That’s cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Great - but we voted to leave and stop it.
Which May's Deal would do. Sadly though for you, it looks like your extreme Brexiteer comrades are going to to blow it and we'll be Remaining after all.
Ah yes, the Hammond labelling of all Brexit supporters as extremists. Funny how quick Remainers are to resort to insults. FOM was a big reason Leave won. There were riots in Brussels today about fears of more immigration. I don’t want riots in the UK. Ending FOM will suit me.
Comments
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Brothers and sisters
When they insist we're just not good enough
Well we know better
Just look him in his eyes and say
We're gonna do it anyway
We're gonna do it anyway
“The higher you build your (trade) barriers”
[EDIT: unfuck blockquote]
"The easiest deal in the world"
"They need us more than we need them"
Hahaha!
He the doubled down by saying nobody had read the withdrawal agreement and those of us who had must be liars, even as we quoted from it.
The irony is she’s carrying out a rock hard Brexit...
And the UK SoS for Transport? Chris Grayling. Only ever described as “outstanding” when followed by the word “muppet”.
We don't know whether either the UK or the EU will last (though I have no ill-wish against the EU), but there will, ahem, always be an England, something that looks very much like France and so on.
So, let's sign the WA, start talking about the next phase, and who knows, once passions have cooled we may very well end up as an associate in a truly two-speed Europe, or even rejoin in a decade or so. It's really in our hands whatever happens.
But it does look dead in the water barring some improbable unexpected event.
Goodness me, I'm in a sour mood tonight.
You need help that only the medical profession can provide.
Sigh.
As to the mobility framework, we should be happy to have 'easy' movement of people. I like European workers, they're an asset to this country. But we will ultimately be in control of numbers (though I don't think people have worked out that this is not synonymous with 'lower immigration', Javid's dog whistles notwithstanding).
People (I assert) want to see a fair immigration system that makes it simple and easy for the immigrants we need and want to enter, feel welcome and contribute, while being fucking ultra-difficult for those we don't.
http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2018/11/the-brexit-withdrawal-agreement.html
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
Appropriate language for the leave with no deal campaign.....
Geraint Thomas is SPOTY.
It seems to be: forecasts of instant doom, made by Osborne and the Treasury, to occur following the referendum were false.
Therefore everything will be fine following No Deal crashout, and all the industry concerns from all sectors across the piece can be safely ignored and what you want to believe will, in fact, be what happens. You don't seem to have ever addressed any of the issues raised, merely shouting about false forecasts in the past.
I'm genuinely worried. Put my fears to rest - please. And not with a fairy tale of "I don't want to believe that so it won't happen," because that's all that's coming across at the moment.
no mobile phones abroad (debunked)
no air travel (debunked)
car industry shutting down (oh wait - silly channel 4, that is the usual annual shut down)
just in time supply chains destroyed (remind me, how does a just in time supply chain where the supplier is outside the EU work then)?
No one is saying there will not be challenges but can we please deal in facts.
That doesn't mean on balance that it's a bad thing. It has potential.
Just to remind ourselves that there was no 'good ol' days' when politicians had integrity.
They've compromised on our Cypriot presence (which they could have made very difficult for us, if they chose), and they've compromised on the payments owed in the three main areas of UK financial liability (remember the original figure being bandied about was ~100bn).
I don't think this government has negotiated well, but that's more cockup than conspiracy, in my view. The Tories still don't have a common approach agreed at cabinet level, which is unbelievable on even a moments reflection. They'll have to get better, no?
I don't think the WA is great - it's a curate's egg. But that should have been expected. But it achieves step 1. Brexit.
For example what happens to the UK-US aviation agreement that is currently via the European Open Skies agreement. Repeat for every other country in the world outside the European Union.
Bottom line is we need more on trade from them than we have to give, and will need to play concessions like fishing for all they are worth.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46380463
Great - but we voted to Leave
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/the-nine-lessons-of-brexit/
Still, we'll need to have something to stop the Japanese et al shifting their manufacturing to the continent. Let's see what happens.
To put it in perspective a bit, as an pretty ordinary 80 year old with maybe 300,000 cycled miles in my legs, I can deliver something like 200 watts to my turbo trainer for 30 minutes say, but guys like Thomas can put out 400 to 600 watts longer.
What is it about freedom of movement that Leavers dislike so much? Why would they wish themselves to be less free.
It’s been a fabulous addition to business life. People from across Europe learning from each other, improving companies.
I am not a subscriber but if it’s Ivan Rogers speech, I’ve already read it. Not sure a former ambassador is the most reliable guide to economic consequences of any particular course of action.
Extend it!
At least with May's Deal the UK could just sit in the backstop and enjoy CU benefits for no fees and with no FoM.
The UK diaspora is overwhelmingly within the Anglosphere; perhaps that will change, but I don't see much sign of that.
Ultimately, FoM requires me to acquiesce to the creation of a Federal Europe. I'll take work permits and avoid that (for me) undesirable outcome.
Cross of St George face paint optional.
Is that the next county along from Gammonshire?
If we were in the EEA I wouldn't have a problem with Freedom of Movement, though I wouldn't care about it either. If I were in Switzerland I wouldn't have a problem with it, because Switzerland is also outside the EU's treaty structures.
However, if you're a citizen of an EU member state, you are going to be part of the drive to ever closer union. FoM is a benefit that also comes with a cost.