What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
Hahahahahaha!
"The easiest deal in the world"
"They need us more than we need them"
Hahaha!
And if revoke A 50 we’re going to live happily ever after are we. The Muppet Show makes more sense - and have better punch lines
Membership of the European Union has never caused me a moment of unhappiness. I will miss some of the benefits if we actually do leave - though as we still haven't worked out how to do so and the time left is less than the gestation period of a chinchilla that has to be doubted.
Great - but we voted to Leave
What's the weather like in Moscow Andy?
Wouldn’t know but it’s raining hard in Hamshire if you’re interested.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now.
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
.
I have been an ex-pat working abroad. Filling in a few forms is not that difficult. Immigration apartheid on the other hand is abhorrent.
I would extend it, not retract it. That’s cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Great - but we voted to leave and stop it.
Which May's Deal would do. Sadly though for you, it looks like your extreme Brexiteer comrades are going to to blow it and we'll be Remaining after all.
Ah yes, the Hammond labelling of all Brexit supporters as extremists. Funny how quick Remainers are to resort to insults. FOM was a big reason Leave won. There were riots in Brussels today about fears of more immigration. I don’t want riots in the UK. Ending FOM will suit me.
What is it about freedom of movement that Leavers dislike so much? Why would they wish themselves to be less free.
It’s been a fabulous addition to business life. People from across Europe learning from each other, improving companies.
I've been moving around the globe since I was 25 (58 now), including Europe and the Americas. I don't understand the obsession with FoM. It's lovely for young itinerants with no dependants or homes, but for any family person emigration/migration is not something you do on a whim, and the amount of paperwork saved is minimal.
The UK diaspora is overwhelmingly within the Anglosphere; perhaps that will change, but I don't see much sign of that.
Ultimately, FoM requires me to acquiesce to the creation of a Federal Europe. I'll take work permits and avoid that (for me) undesirable outcome.
Er no. It really doesn’t. There are several European countries that enjoy FOM who are not even in the EU. Leavers’ ultra weak logic exposed here.
You mean Switzerland and the EEA countries, I presume. Please don't flail around with non sequiturs and accuse Leavers of illogic.
If we were in the EEA I wouldn't have a problem with Freedom of Movement, though I wouldn't care about it either. If I were in Switzerland I wouldn't have a problem with it, because Switzerland is also outside the EU's treaty structures.
However, if you're a citizen of an EU member state, you are going to be part of the drive to ever closer union. FoM is a benefit that also comes with a cost.
Turgid syntax, muddled argument.
There are ways of retaining FOM while leaving the EU, as you well know.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
Dweebs.
I hate the way it makes us discriminate against Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians.
So why not extend it to those countries and others? The fact that some countries are excluded is a poor reason to end it!
Extend it!
Yes, let's aim for a population of 150 million. Brilliant plan.
About six minutes ago you were lamenting the labour barriers on the Anzac nations. Make your bloody mind up man!
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
Good news for Wales - the severn crossing tolls are being removed after 50 years and by Easter both bridges will be at motorway standard.
Thank you Alun Cairns, you absolute god! Paid my last toll yesterday, and for old times sake Highways England detoured me over the old bridge.
Of course it takes a conservative Secretary of State for Wales to do the right thing for business and the Welsh economy. Not that lot of Corbynistas now in Cardiff
I’m no Corbynista (I’ve only voted Labour once in my life), but Lee Waters, Drakeford’s new appointee for deputy economy and transport (which, in practice, means transport) is outstanding.
And the UK SoS for Transport? Chris Grayling. Only ever described as “outstanding” when followed by the word “muppet”.
Is that why the new 15 year rail Wales franchise negotiated by labour is in chaos and disarray
I'm disappointed, Big G. Why wouldn't you go for, 'is a complete train wreck?'
I will go for your upgrade. My daughter regularly travels from Abergele/Rhyl to Bridgend and Llanelli for meetings and not only does she have to stay in a hotel overnight, she has chaotic delays and cancellations all via the new Wales government franchise
Ah well, we all know my puns are definitely first class!
That sucks for your daughter. Would say, hope they sort it out but that won't happen any time soon.
The problem is and always has been unfortunately that ultimately all railways in the UK point towards London. That's great in Scotland, where traffic basically flows to Edinburgh or Glasgow and then on. It's rubbish in Wales where there is actually no railway line from north to south - and never really has been (yes, in pencil you can trace a line Cardiff, Swansea, Carmarthen, Aberystwyth, Machynlleth, Pwllheli, Bangor, but it involved at least three changes).
I don't see it ever being fixed, bluntly, given the logistics and economics. Much mocked though Ieuan Air was, it was probably the right idea for Wales.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
Well, of course any future government could agree that, even after your desired No Deal exit. In fact it's probably more likely with your No Deal agreement.
At least with May's Deal the UK could just sit in the backstop and enjoy CU benefits for no fees and with no FoM.
If we wanted that we would just stay in the EU. We voted to Leave.
Well, I suspect you may get the chance to vote for it again.
And how many more times will we have to vote for it before it happens?
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people? .."
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
.
I have been an ex-pat working abroad. Filling in a few forms is not that difficult. Immigration apartheid on the other hand is abhorrent.
So extend FOM. I have had (and lost) a great NZ employee. I would extend it, not retract it. That’s cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Great - but we voted to leave and stop it.
No, a very narrow majority of those who actually voted, voted to leave the EU. That was all.
What you don't realise Anazina, is that every single person who voted Leave voted for exactly the same sort of Leave as AmpfieldAndy wants. None of them voted for any other kind of Leave, not even those Cabinet Leavers who are busy promoting May's Deal.
Nothing must get in the way of the One True Brexit!
Ah yes, the Hammond labelling of all Brexit supporters as extremists. Funny how quick Remainers are to resort to insults. FOM was a big reason Leave won. There were riots in Brussels today about fears of more immigration. I don’t want riots in the UK. Ending FOM will suit me.
Actually, he called JRM and his supporters extremists.
I think the only thing we can criticise him for there is undue generosity.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
At least with May's Deal the UK could just sit in the backstop and enjoy CU benefits for no fees and with no FoM.
If we wanted that we would just stay in the EU. We voted to Leave.
Well, I suspect you may get the chance to vote for it again.
A second referendum is certainly being pushed hard by those who never accepted the result of the first. Not democracy really is it. And we don’t know the question yet do we. Apart from that, great point.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
Lololololololol
Talking of Project Fear, you are its chief exponent. Figured out the assumptions behind Hammond’s forecasts yet so that you can say why they should be believed. No - thought not.
Channel 4 always happy to lend a helping hand
no mobile phones abroad (debunked)
no air travel (debunked)
car industry shutting down (oh wait - silly channel 4, that is the usual annual shut down)
just in time supply chains destroyed (remind me, how does a just in time supply chain where the supplier is outside the EU work then)?
No one is saying there will not be challenges but can we please deal in facts.
It's a fact that a lot of our trade with non-EU currently relies on the EU's own trade agreements and recognition of EU standards, etc, which we would lose on 1 April. It's not just a question of goods and services to and from the Eu.
Not much of a short term problem for the consumer - the UK will recognise EC goods as in conformity with UK regulations for the time being at least.
Ah yes, the Hammond labelling of all Brexit supporters as extremists. Funny how quick Remainers are to resort to insults. FOM was a big reason Leave won. There were riots in Brussels today about fears of more immigration. I don’t want riots in the UK. Ending FOM will suit me.
Actually, he called JRM and his supporters extremists.
I think the only thing we can criticise him for there is undue generosity.
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
No other Commonwealth countries due for some 'loosening'?
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
Dweebs.
I hate the way it makes us discriminate against Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians.
So why not extend it to those countries and others? The fact that some countries are excluded is a poor reason to end it!
Extend it!
Yes, let's aim for a population of 150 million. Brilliant plan.
About six minutes ago you were lamenting the labour barriers on the Anzac nations. Make your bloody mind up man!
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
Why? Better to relax it on all of them. I have superb employees from France, Spain and Italy. What on earth have you got against them, for crying out loud?
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
No other Commonwealth countries due for some 'loosening'?
Ah yes, the Hammond labelling of all Brexit supporters as extremists. Funny how quick Remainers are to resort to insults. FOM was a big reason Leave won. There were riots in Brussels today about fears of more immigration. I don’t want riots in the UK. Ending FOM will suit me.
Actually, he called JRM and his supporters extremists.
I think the only thing we can criticise him for there is undue generosity.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
Dweebs.
I hate the way it makes us discriminate against Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians.
So why not extend it to those countries and others? The fact that some countries are excluded is a poor reason to end it!
Extend it!
Yes, let's aim for a population of 150 million. Brilliant plan.
About six minutes ago you were lamenting the labour barriers on the Anzac nations. Make your bloody mind up man!
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
A in-law of mine emigrated to NZ about 10 years ago because they were unhappy about the high levels of immigrants in this country (yes, I know, but the irony was lost on them). Anyway they have moved back now to Scotland because... you guessed it, it turned out that 'NZ is letting in too many immigrants from the far east'!
Ah yes, the Hammond labelling of all Brexit supporters as extremists. Funny how quick Remainers are to resort to insults. FOM was a big reason Leave won. There were riots in Brussels today about fears of more immigration. I don’t want riots in the UK. Ending FOM will suit me.
Actually, he called JRM and his supporters extremists.
I think the only thing we can criticise him for there is undue generosity.
Good news for Wales - the severn crossing tolls are being removed after 50 years and by Easter both bridges will be at motorway standard.
Thank you Alun Cairns, you absolute god! Paid my last toll yesterday, and for old times sake Highways England detoured me over the old bridge.
Of course it takes a conservative Secretary of State for Wales to do the right thing for business and the Welsh economy. Not that lot of Corbynistas now in Cardiff
I’m no Corbynista (I’ve only voted Labour once in my life), but Lee Waters, Drakeford’s new appointee for deputy economy and transport (which, in practice, means transport) is outstanding.
And the UK SoS for Transport? Chris Grayling. Only ever described as “outstanding” when followed by the word “muppet”.
Is that why the new 15 year rail Wales franchise negotiated by labour is in chaos and disarray
I'm disappointed, Big G. Why wouldn't you go for, 'is a complete train wreck?'
I will go for your upgrade. My daughter regularly travels from Abergele/Rhyl to Bridgend and Llanelli for meetings and not only does she have to stay in a hotel overnight, she has chaotic delays and cancellations all via the new Wales government franchise
Ah well, we all know my puns are definitely first class!
That sucks for your daughter. Would say, hope they sort it out but that won't happen any time soon.
The problem is and always has been unfortunately that ultimately all railways in the UK point towards London. That's great in Scotland, where traffic basically flows to Edinburgh or Glasgow and then on. It's rubbish in Wales where there is actually no railway line from north to south - and never really has been (yes, in pencil you can trace a line Cardiff, Swansea, Carmarthen, Aberystwyth, Machynlleth, Pwllheli, Bangor, but it involved at least three changes).
I don't see it ever being fixed, bluntly, given the logistics and economics. Much mocked though Ieuan Air was, it was probably the right idea for Wales.
I agree but at least the new service promised by labour would be good, but do not trust labour or grayling with the railways, they are both hopeless
What is it about freedom of movement that Leavers dislike so much? Why would they wish themselves to be less free.
It’s been a fabulous addition to business life. People from across Europe learning from each other, improving companies.
I've been moving around the globe since I was 25 (58 now), including Europe and the Americas. I don't understand the obsession with FoM. It's lovely for young itinerants with no dependants or homes, but for any family person emigration/migration is not something you do on a whim, and the amount of paperwork saved is minimal.
The UK diaspora is overwhelmingly within the Anglosphere; perhaps that will change, but I don't see much sign of that.
Ultimately, FoM requires me to acquiesce to the creation of a Federal Europe. I'll take work permits and avoid that (for me) undesirable outcome.
Er no. It really doesn’t. There are several European countries that enjoy FOM who are not even in the EU. Leavers’ ultra weak logic exposed here.
You mean Switzerland and the EEA countries, I presume. Please don't flail around with non sequiturs and accuse Leavers of illogic.
If we were in the EEA I wouldn't have a problem with Freedom of Movement, though I wouldn't care about it either. If I were in Switzerland I wouldn't have a problem with it, because Switzerland is also outside the EU's treaty structures.
However, if you're a citizen of an EU member state, you are going to be part of the drive to ever closer union. FoM is a benefit that also comes with a cost.
Turgid syntax, muddled argument.
There are ways of retaining FOM while leaving the EU, as you well know.
Brexitism and logic make poor bedfellows.
I have no issue with people who honestly and openly want a Federal Europe; I like williamglenn's position, it's sincerely held and passionately argued.
However, that's not what I want, so it's goodbye to the indivisible Four Freedoms. Pity, but those are the rules. I can't be any clearer without using crayons. You can disagree with me, of course.
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
No other Commonwealth countries due for some 'loosening'?
It wasn't an exhaustive list.
Given that those you included are all predominantly white, we all know what's driving your suggestion.
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
No other Commonwealth countries due for some 'loosening'?
It wasn't an exhaustive list.
Something that those three countries have in common that I just can't quite put my finger on..
Is that why the new 15 year rail Wales franchise negotiated by labour is in chaos and disarray
I doubt it given that Lee Waters has only been in post a couple of days now...
But, still, I was a frequent traveller on the previous franchise (Arriva Trains Wales). It was, without doubt, the single worst train company I've ever travelled on. Not that our "local" train company, GWR, exactly cover themselves in glory; and there are very few operators I'd consider respectable. Chiltern, perhaps, and London Overground. London Midland were ok but I haven't travelled enough by their replacements to judge.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
Dweebs.
I hate the way it makes us discriminate against Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians.
So why not extend it to those countries and others? The fact that some countries are excluded is a poor reason to end it!
Extend it!
Yes, let's aim for a population of 150 million. Brilliant plan.
About six minutes ago you were lamenting the labour barriers on the Anzac nations. Make your bloody mind up man!
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
Why? Better to relax it on all of them. I have superb employees from France, Spain and Italy. What on earth have you got against them, for crying out loud?
Because freedom of movement with the whole world is a policy for a population of 150 million.
I have superb employees from Italy and Romania. I had superb employees from Australia and New Zealand. The latter had to go home because we couldn't get visas for them.
Superb employees should be able to come and stay wherever they are from.
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
No other Commonwealth countries due for some 'loosening'?
It wasn't an exhaustive list.
Given that those you included are all predominantly white, we all know what's driving your suggestion.
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
No other Commonwealth countries due for some 'loosening'?
It wasn't an exhaustive list.
Something that those three countries have in common that I just can't quite put my finger on..
He wants to Pak them in. But Jamaica success of immigration is difficult.
Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people? .."
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
.
I have been an ex-pat working abroad. Filling in a few forms is not that difficult. Immigration apartheid on the other hand is abhorrent.
So extend FOM. I have had (and lost) a great NZ employee. I would extend it, not retract it. That’s cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Great - but we voted to leave and stop it.
No, a very narrow majority of those who actually voted, voted to leave the EU. That was all.
What you don't realise Anazina, is that every single person who voted Leave voted for exactly the same sort of Leave as AmpfieldAndy wants. None of them voted for any other kind of Leave, not even those Cabinet Leavers who are busy promoting May's Deal.
Nothing must get in the way of the One True Brexit!
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense..
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
At least with May's Deal the UK could just sit in the backstop and enjoy CU benefits for no fees and with no FoM.
If we wanted that we would just stay in the EU. We voted to Leave.
Well, I suspect you may get the chance to vote for it again.
A second referendum is certainly being pushed hard by those who never accepted the result of the first. Not democracy really is it. And we don’t know the question yet do we. Apart from that, great point.
Brexiteers got greedy and they are now likely to see the irony of being responsible for the demise of their dream
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
No other Commonwealth countries due for some 'loosening'?
It wasn't an exhaustive list.
Something that those three countries have in common that I just can't quite put my finger on..
They're all countries I've had experience of losing great employees from.
What is it about freedom of movement that Leavers dislike so much? Why would they wish themselves to be less free.
It’s been a fabulous addition to business life. People from across Europe learning from each other, improving companies.
I've been moving around the globe since I was 25 (58 now), including Europe and the Americas. I don't understand the obsession with FoM. It's lovely for young itinerants with no dependants or homes, but for any family person emigration/migration is not something you do on a whim, and the amount of paperwork saved is minimal.
The UK diaspora is overwhelmingly within the Anglosphere; perhaps that will change, but I don't see much sign of that.
Ultimately, FoM requires me to acquiesce to the creation of a Federal Europe. I'll take work permits and avoid that (for me) undesirable outcome.
Er no. It really doesn’t. There are several European countries that enjoy FOM who are not even in the EU. Leavers’ ultra weak logic exposed here.
You mean Switzerland and the EEA countries, I presume. Please don't flail around with non sequiturs and accuse Leavers of illogic.
If we were in the EEA I wouldn't have a problem with Freedom of Movement, though I wouldn't care about it either. If I were in Switzerland I wouldn't have a problem with it, because Switzerland is also outside the EU's treaty structures.
However, if you're a citizen of an EU member state, you are going to be part of the drive to ever closer union. FoM is a benefit that also comes with a cost.
Turgid syntax, muddled argument.
There are ways of retaining FOM while leaving the EU, as you well know.
Brexitism and logic make poor bedfellows.
I have no issue with people who honestly and openly want a Federal Europe; I like williamglenn's position, it's sincerely held and passionately argued.
However, that's not what I want, so it's goodbye to the indivisible Four Freedoms. Pity, but those are the rules. I can't be any clearer without using crayons. You can disagree with me, of course.
Crayons are unnecessary.
The illogicality of your position is crystal clear when written in normal ink.
Articulate why you have such fears in a comprehensible manner rather than simply regurgitate Hammonds reincarnation of Project Fear.
1 - Supply chains. These are embedded around the EU to take advantage of economies of scale and specialisation. For example, a single component at the Mini factory in Oxford can cross into and out of the UK several times before being installed. Without membership of the Single market (with its associated common regulations, underwriting, and standards-checking regime), what happens here? This is just one factory out of a huge number in the UK. Do they all start manufacturing in-house? How much disruption is caused and jobs lost?
2 - Port delays. The delays at Dover and the tailbacks and disruption that would occur as soon as we leave without any deal which reflects a common recognition of standards and checks are well known. Unless we simply throw open the borders and check nothing (which won't help on the way out), the lorry parks in Kent will exist. (And if we throw open our borders and accept whatever comes in, unchecked and unregistered, what the hell did we 'take back control' of?). What is going to be tied up in the ports and the M20/M2 lorry parks?
3 - Supply chains redux. We know that supermarkets don't keep extensive stocks - that's economic suicide. Even with them stockpiling where they can, the shelves could run out quickly if lorries aren't coming in regularly, and if they're in a big truck jam, they won't be coming in regularly. Panic buying can accompany this.
4 - Supply chains redux again. Factories (which aren't getting their widgets- the ones they do something to - going to and fro regularly) are also going to have to get the widgets-for-incorporation stockpiled rather than delivered just-in-time. This will be an additional shock/disruption.
5 - Medical and others - we import medicines quite a lot (again, economies of scale and specialisation). Medicines which have to hit certain regulations and standards. We can do emergency shipments (as if we're a third world country that's had a natural disaster), but that's not sustainable and fraught with issues. What happens in the medium term here?
6 - The Irish border. Unless we accept a sort of de facto backstop where Northern Ireland accepts everything from the Republic whatever the standards and regulations that applies to it (and there will certainly be chancers around for this), there's a hard border and shit happens there.
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense..
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we. Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
At least with May's Deal the UK could just sit in the backstop and enjoy CU benefits for no fees and with no FoM.
If we wanted that we would just stay in the EU. We voted to Leave.
Well, I suspect you may get the chance to vote for it again.
A second referendum is certainly being pushed hard by those who never accepted the result of the first. Not democracy really is it. And we don’t know the question yet do we. Apart from that, great point.
Brexiteers got greedy and they are now likely to see the irony of being responsible for the demise of their dream
What a fatuous comment. Brexiteers won the referendum. Nothing greedy about that.
Is that why the new 15 year rail Wales franchise negotiated by labour is in chaos and disarray
I doubt it given that Lee Waters has only been in post a couple of days now...
But, still, I was a frequent traveller on the previous franchise (Arriva Trains Wales). It was, without doubt, the single worst train company I've ever travelled on. Not that our "local" train company, GWR, exactly cover themselves in glory; and there are very few operators I'd consider respectable. Chiltern, perhaps, and London Overground. London Midland were ok but I haven't travelled enough by their replacements to judge.
South West Trains used to be good but they lost their franchise to FirstGroup/MTR (South Western Railway) and it's all gone tits up since then. But I am sure FirstGroup offered more dosh, so that's all fine then
For example what happens to the UK-US aviation agreement that is currently via the European Open Skies agreement. Repeat for every other country in the world outside the European Union.
A German hate preacher has been allowed to live in Britain despite leading a banned Islamist group accused of inspiring 140 jihadists to join Isis and al-Qaeda.
Brahim Belkaid was able to settle in Leicester almost five years ago after returning to Europe from Syria, where he is suspected of supporting terrorists.
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now. Have a read of this:
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
Dweebs.
I hate the way it makes us discriminate against Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians.
So why not extend it to those countries and others? The fact that some countries are excluded is a poor reason to end it!
Extend it!
Yes, let's aim for a population of 150 million. Brilliant plan.
About six minutes ago you were lamenting the labour barriers on the Anzac nations. Make your bloody mind up man!
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
Why? Better to relax it on all of them. I have superb employees from France, Spain and Italy. What on earth have you got against them, for crying out loud?
Because freedom of movement with the whole world is a policy for a population of 150 million.
I have superb employees from Italy and Romania. I had superb employees from Australia and New Zealand. The latter had to go home because we couldn't get visas for them.
Superb employees should be able to come and stay wherever they are from.
Well we could easily accommodate a population of 150 million if we raise density levels to those of the Brexiteer utopia that is Singapore.
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
No other Commonwealth countries due for some 'loosening'?
It wasn't an exhaustive list.
Given that those you included are all predominantly white, we all know what's driving your suggestion.
Is that why the new 15 year rail Wales franchise negotiated by labour is in chaos and disarray
I doubt it given that Lee Waters has only been in post a couple of days now...
But, still, I was a frequent traveller on the previous franchise (Arriva Trains Wales). It was, without doubt, the single worst train company I've ever travelled on. Not that our "local" train company, GWR, exactly cover themselves in glory; and there are very few operators I'd consider respectable. Chiltern, perhaps, and London Overground. London Midland were ok but I haven't travelled enough by their replacements to judge.
Labour have only just signed the new 15 year franchise and it makes Arriva/TFW look like the Orient Express
I know, my daughter is a regular north - south Wales business traveller.
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
No other Commonwealth countries due for some 'loosening'?
It wasn't an exhaustive list.
Given that those you included are all predominantly white, we all know what's driving your suggestion.
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
No other Commonwealth countries due for some 'loosening'?
It wasn't an exhaustive list.
Given that those you included are all predominantly white, we all know what's driving your suggestion.
Go on, spell it out.
I don't need to - everyone knows.
You didn't notice that the three countries I mentioned are less white than, for example, Bulgaria and Romania, did you?
Is that why the new 15 year rail Wales franchise negotiated by labour is in chaos and disarray
I doubt it given that Lee Waters has only been in post a couple of days now...
But, still, I was a frequent traveller on the previous franchise (Arriva Trains Wales). It was, without doubt, the single worst train company I've ever travelled on. Not that our "local" train company, GWR, exactly cover themselves in glory; and there are very few operators I'd consider respectable. Chiltern, perhaps, and London Overground. London Midland were ok but I haven't travelled enough by their replacements to judge.
South West Trains used to be good but they lost their franchise to FirstGroup/MTR (South Western Railway) and it's all gone tits up since then. But I am sure FirstGroup offered more dosh, so that's all fine then
Nationalise the lot. Franchising simply does not work.
Is that why the new 15 year rail Wales franchise negotiated by labour is in chaos and disarray
I doubt it given that Lee Waters has only been in post a couple of days now...
But, still, I was a frequent traveller on the previous franchise (Arriva Trains Wales). It was, without doubt, the single worst train company I've ever travelled on. Not that our "local" train company, GWR, exactly cover themselves in glory; and there are very few operators I'd consider respectable. Chiltern, perhaps, and London Overground. London Midland were ok but I haven't travelled enough by their replacements to judge.
South West Trains used to be good but they lost their franchise to FirstGroup/MTR (South Western Railway) and it's all gone tits up since then. But I am sure FirstGroup offered more dosh, so that's all fine then
Nationalise the lot. Franchising simply does not work.
And make them just as good as Network Rail, which is already responsible for the vast majority of delays on the railways?
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
Not in any meaningful sense..
Don't be a numpty - fishing (i.e. membership of the CFP), freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration, all end if we enter the backstop.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
So we should ignore Macron’s threats to demand access to U.K. fishing grounds once the WA is in place based on your say so should we.
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
At least with May's Deal the UK could just sit in the backstop and enjoy CU benefits for no fees and with no FoM.
If we wanted that we would just stay in the EU. We voted to Leave.
Well, I suspect you may get the chance to vote for it again.
A second referendum is certainly being pushed hard by those who never accepted the result of the first. Not democracy really is it. And we don’t know the question yet do we. Apart from that, great point.
Brexiteers got greedy and they are now likely to see the irony of being responsible for the demise of their dream
What a fatuous comment. Brexiteers won the referendum. Nothing greedy about that.
You are in denial. The Country voted leave but not to trash the economy, business and the union
The comment is far from fatuous, it is well on the way to happening
For example what happens to the UK-US aviation agreement that is currently via the European Open Skies agreement. Repeat for every other country in the world outside the European Union.
Can't believe I missed that. And that America didn't take the chance to screw us further like they had been threatening.
The air traffic is a good example of why the most extreme of the extreme disaster situations won't occur under No Deal Brexit, as it would absolutely screw everybody, not just the UK.
Those wanting to realistically warn about the dangers should be concentrating on the much more likely scenarios that because of increased checks etc, JIT approaches can't operate, thus more warehousing requires / slower rates of production and processing, resulting in higher cost to the consumer.
Is that why the new 15 year rail Wales franchise negotiated by labour is in chaos and disarray
I doubt it given that Lee Waters has only been in post a couple of days now...
But, still, I was a frequent traveller on the previous franchise (Arriva Trains Wales). It was, without doubt, the single worst train company I've ever travelled on. Not that our "local" train company, GWR, exactly cover themselves in glory; and there are very few operators I'd consider respectable. Chiltern, perhaps, and London Overground. London Midland were ok but I haven't travelled enough by their replacements to judge.
South West Trains used to be good but they lost their franchise to FirstGroup/MTR (South Western Railway) and it's all gone tits up since then. But I am sure FirstGroup offered more dosh, so that's all fine then
Nationalise the lot. Franchising simply does not work.
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
If the "obvious reason" for Ireland is that we used to be in a political union with them, it applies to the EU26 too.
Is that why the new 15 year rail Wales franchise negotiated by labour is in chaos and disarray
I doubt it given that Lee Waters has only been in post a couple of days now...
But, still, I was a frequent traveller on the previous franchise (Arriva Trains Wales). It was, without doubt, the single worst train company I've ever travelled on. Not that our "local" train company, GWR, exactly cover themselves in glory; and there are very few operators I'd consider respectable. Chiltern, perhaps, and London Overground. London Midland were ok but I haven't travelled enough by their replacements to judge.
South West Trains used to be good but they lost their franchise to FirstGroup/MTR (South Western Railway) and it's all gone tits up since then. But I am sure FirstGroup offered more dosh, so that's all fine then
Nationalise the lot. Franchising simply does not work.
Not possible in Wales now. Labour have signed a new 15 year franchise with TFW
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
No other Commonwealth countries due for some 'loosening'?
It wasn't an exhaustive list.
Given that those you included are all predominantly white, we all know what's driving your suggestion.
Go on, spell it out.
I don't need to - everyone knows.
You didn't notice that the three countries I mentioned are less white than, for example, Bulgaria and Romania, did you?
Apparently the very existence of the Anglosphere makes us all racists. By and large, I've not hired many Indonesians, but I have hired a lot of Yanks, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders. Of course, the fact that they all have ethnic minorities thrice our own percentage kind of spoils the whole Aryan master race thang, but this is the Internet, so racist something something something.
Sam Gyimah is suggesting that he knows what Number 10's current thinking is.
1) Meaningful Vote. They expect to lose, hard. 2) They agree a series of indicative votes, in conference with the other party leaders, to be put the house. 3) If no winner emerges, least popular choices will be eliminated and the process repeated (an exhaustive ballot, essentially) 4) All the party leaders (including the PM) will agree, beforehand, the the votes will be free votes, and the party's whips will agree to be bound by the result of the indicative votes.
For example what happens to the UK-US aviation agreement that is currently via the European Open Skies agreement. Repeat for every other country in the world outside the European Union.
Can't believe I missed that. And that America didn't take the chance to screw us further like they had been threatening.
The air traffic is a good example of why the most extreme of the extreme disaster situations won't occur under No Deal Brexit, as it would absolutely screw everybody, not just the UK.
Those wanting to realistically warn about the dangers should be concentrating on the much more likely scenarios that because of increased checks etc, JIT approaches can't operate, thus more warehousing requires / slower rates of production and processing, resulting in higher cost to the consumer.
That's a fair point, as are your examples. Personally I think there will be quite serious disruption at airports in the UK and in Europe, dnot due to grounded planes but because the changing processes will cause a lot of confusion and at most airports it only takes a very minor issue to escalate to serious delays.
Sam Gyimah is suggesting that he knows what Number 10's current thinking is.
1) Meaningful Vote. They expect to lose, hard. 2) They agree a series of indicative votes, in conference with the other party leaders, to be put the house. 3) If no winner emerges, least popular choices will be eliminated and the process repeated (an exhaustive ballot, essentially) 4) All the party leaders (including the PM) will agree, beforehand, the the votes will be free votes, and the party's whips will agree to be bound by the result of the indicative votes.
Sounds too much like common sense to be plausible. What's in it for Labour?
Articulate why you have such fears in a comprehensible manner rather than simply regurgitate Hammonds reincarnation of Project Fear.
1 - Supply chains. These are embedded around the EU to take advantage of economies of scale and specialisation. For example, a single component at the Mini factory in Oxford can cross into and out of the UK several times before being installed. Without membership of the Single market (with its associated common regulations, underwriting, and standards-checking regime), what happens here? This is just one factory out of a huge number in the UK. Do they all start manufacturing in-house? How much disruption is caused and jobs lost?
2 - Port delays. The delays at Dover and the tailbacks and disruption that would occur as soon as we leave without any deal which reflects a common recognition of standards and checks are well known. Unless we simply throw open the borders and check nothing (which won't help on the way out), the lorry parks in Kent will exist. (And if we throw open our borders and accept whatever comes in, unchecked and unregistered, what the hell did we 'take back control' of?). What is going to be tied up in the ports and the M20/M2 lorry parks?
3 - Supply chains redux. We know that supermarkets don't keep extensive stocks - that's economic suicide. Even with them stockpiling where they can, the shelves could run out quickly if lorries aren't coming in regularly, and if they're in a big truck jam, they won't be coming in regularly. Panic buying can accompany this.
4 - Supply chains redux again. Factories (which aren't getting their widgets- the ones they do something to - going to and fro regularly) are also going to have to get the widgets-for-incorporation stockpiled rather than delivered just-in-time. This will be an additional shock/disruption.
5 - Medical and others - we import medicines quite a lot (again, economies of scale and specialisation). Medicines which have to hit certain regulations and standards. We can do emergency shipments (as if we're a third world country that's had a natural disaster), but that's not sustainable and fraught with issues. What happens in the medium term here?
6 - The Irish border. Unless we accept a sort of de facto backstop where Northern Ireland accepts everything from the Republic whatever the standards and regulations that applies to it (and there will certainly be chancers around for this), there's a hard border and shit happens there.
That's just off the top of my head.
What Mini component(s) cross the channel multiple times? How many Mini components cross the channel multiple times? What percentage of components cross the channel multiple times? Pretty basic info.
Sam Gyimah is suggesting that he knows what Number 10's current thinking is.
1) Meaningful Vote. They expect to lose, hard. 2) They agree a series of indicative votes, in conference with the other party leaders, to be put the house. 3) If no winner emerges, least popular choices will be eliminated and the process repeated (an exhaustive ballot, essentially) 4) All the party leaders (including the PM) will agree, beforehand, the the votes will be free votes, and the party's whips will agree to be bound by the result of the indicative votes.
Wasn’t this the idea that was hatched on here several days back?
My mind is made up, man, and I'm being totally consistent.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
If the "obvious reason" for Ireland is that we used to be in a political union with them, it applies to the EU26 too.
I suspect Donny means the CTA, the Ireland Act and the reciprocal Irish legislation.
Is that why the new 15 year rail Wales franchise negotiated by labour is in chaos and disarray
I doubt it given that Lee Waters has only been in post a couple of days now...
But, still, I was a frequent traveller on the previous franchise (Arriva Trains Wales). It was, without doubt, the single worst train company I've ever travelled on. Not that our "local" train company, GWR, exactly cover themselves in glory; and there are very few operators I'd consider respectable. Chiltern, perhaps, and London Overground. London Midland were ok but I haven't travelled enough by their replacements to judge.
South West Trains used to be good but they lost their franchise to FirstGroup/MTR (South Western Railway) and it's all gone tits up since then. But I am sure FirstGroup offered more dosh, so that's all fine then
I haven't noticed much difference, both are mediocre. I'd say the new outfit has marginally better customer service. Reliability (except for the strike) is similar and of course the timetable and rolling stock haven't changed, except for the inevitable repainting.
Sam Gyimah is suggesting that he knows what Number 10's current thinking is.
1) Meaningful Vote. They expect to lose, hard. 2) They agree a series of indicative votes, in conference with the other party leaders, to be put the house. 3) If no winner emerges, least popular choices will be eliminated and the process repeated (an exhaustive ballot, essentially) 4) All the party leaders (including the PM) will agree, beforehand, the the votes will be free votes, and the party's whips will agree to be bound by the result of the indicative votes.
Sounds too much like common sense to be plausible. What's in it for Labour?
Labour really doesn't want to have to have its internal contradictions exposed any more than the Tories do. Labour's looking for a way to backpedal from their confused mess of a Brexit policy as much as the Tories.
By making the votes all be free votes, it's hoped that no one party will get the blame for the (almost certain) remain result this process will produce.
Sam Gyimah is suggesting that he knows what Number 10's current thinking is.
1) Meaningful Vote. They expect to lose, hard. 2) They agree a series of indicative votes, in conference with the other party leaders, to be put the house. 3) If no winner emerges, least popular choices will be eliminated and the process repeated (an exhaustive ballot, essentially) 4) All the party leaders (including the PM) will agree, beforehand, the the votes will be free votes, and the party's whips will agree to be bound by the result of the indicative votes.
Sounds too much like common sense to be plausible. What's in it for Labour?
If cross parties agree and labour hold out it would very damaging to them
For example what happens to the UK-US aviation agreement that is currently via the European Open Skies agreement. Repeat for every other country in the world outside the European Union.
Can't believe I missed that. And that America didn't take the chance to screw us further like they had been threatening.
The air traffic is a good example of why the most extreme of the extreme disaster situations won't occur under No Deal Brexit, as it would absolutely screw everybody, not just the UK.
Those wanting to realistically warn about the dangers should be concentrating on the much more likely scenarios that because of increased checks etc, JIT approaches can't operate, thus more warehousing requires / slower rates of production and processing, resulting in higher cost to the consumer.
That's a fair point, as are your examples. Personally I think there will be quite serious disruption at airports in the UK and in Europe, dnot due to grounded planes but because the changing processes will cause a lot of confusion and at most airports it only takes a very minor issue to escalate to serious delays.
I wouldn't be surprised either. Airports now operate at an incredibly pace and massive numbers of people pass through every day. Changes to any procedures, I am sure will initially cause disruption.
I remember after 9/11, when they made big changes to security checks and there were a lot of delays to get through to air side. Now, they have stream lined all of that, with the automated tray thingy and you can normally get through pretty quickly.
Sam Gyimah is suggesting that he knows what Number 10's current thinking is.
1) Meaningful Vote. They expect to lose, hard. 2) They agree a series of indicative votes, in conference with the other party leaders, to be put the house. 3) If no winner emerges, least popular choices will be eliminated and the process repeated (an exhaustive ballot, essentially) 4) All the party leaders (including the PM) will agree, beforehand, the the votes will be free votes, and the party's whips will agree to be bound by the result of the indicative votes.
Wasn’t this the idea that was hatched on here several days back?
It's essentially the "papal conclave" method. Except hopefully nobody has to die.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
I am, I confess, having some issues understanding your reasoning.
It seems to be: forecasts of instant doom, made by Osborne and the Treasury, to occur following the referendum were false.
Therefore everything will be fine following No Deal crashout, and all the industry concerns from all sectors across the piece can be safely ignored and what you want to believe will, in fact, be what happens. You don't seem to have ever addressed any of the issues raised, merely shouting about false forecasts in the past.
I'm genuinely worried. Put my fears to rest - please. And not with a fairy tale of "I don't want to believe that so it won't happen," because that's all that's coming across at the moment.
Articulate why you have such fears in a comprehensible manner rather than simply regurgitate Hammonds reincarnation of Project Fear.
I am not a subscriber but if it’s Ivan Rogers speech, I’ve already read it. Not sure a former ambassador is the most reliable guide to economic consequences of any particular course of action.
He has a pretty damning analysis of the consequences of leaving with an unmanaged deal and I would like to see an equally robust counter argument before I'd want to jump off the cliff
I was reading about just how nuts the retail world is these days. Amazon (and all the others) get massive amount of returns, but costs too much to process them. So they sell massive job lots via B2B, who then sell them on to small resellers, who send them into Amazon FBA to sell them on....Amazon....
Articulate why you have such fears in a comprehensible manner rather than simply regurgitate Hammonds reincarnation of Project Fear.
1 - Supply chains. These are embedded around the EU to take advantage of economies of scale and specialisation. For example, a single component at the Mini factory in Oxford can cross into and out of the UK several times before being
2 - Port delays. The delays at Dover and the tailbacks and disruption that would occur as soon as we leave without any deal which reflects a common recognition of standards and checks are well known. Unless we simply throw open the borders and check nothing (which won't help on the way out), the lorry parks in Kent will exist. (And if we throw open our borders and accept whatever comes in, unchecked and unregistered, what the hell did we 'take back control' of?). What is going to be tied up in the ports and the M20/M2 lorry parks?
3 - Supply chains redux. We know that supermarkets don't keep extensive stocks - that's economic suicide. Even with them stockpiling where they can, the shelves could run out quickly if lorries aren't coming in regularly, and if they're in a big truck jam, they won't be coming in regularly. Panic buying can accompany this.
4 - Supply chains redux again. Factories (which aren't getting their widgets- the ones they do something to - going to and fro regularly) are also going to have to get the widgets-for-incorporation stockpiled rather than delivered just-in-time. This will be an additional shock/disruption.
5 - Medical and others - we import medicines quite a lot (again, economies of scale and specialisation). Medicines which have to hit certain regulations and standards. We can do emergency shipments (as if we're a third world country that's had a natural disaster), but that's not sustainable and fraught with issues. What happens in the medium term here?
6 - The Irish border. Unless we accept a sort of de facto backstop where Northern Ireland accepts everything from the Republic whatever the standards and regulations that applies to it (and there will certainly be chancers around for this), there's a hard border and shit happens there.
That's just off the top of my head.
What Mini component(s) cross the channel multiple times? How many Mini components cross the channel multiple times? What percentage of components cross the channel multiple times? Pretty basic info.
But as a Brexiteer you know the answer.
You simply must to have any creditabilty on JIT manufacturing and the impact on the no deal you want
I am not a subscriber but if it’s Ivan Rogers speech, I’ve already read it. Not sure a former ambassador is the most reliable guide to economic consequences of any particular course of action.
He has a pretty damning analysis of the consequences of leaving with an unmanaged deal and I would like to see an equally robust counter argument before I'd want to jump off the cliff
Ivan Rogers, of course, was fire by Mrs May for the crime of being Too Competent.
Sam Gyimah is suggesting that he knows what Number 10's current thinking is.
1) Meaningful Vote. They expect to lose, hard. 2) They agree a series of indicative votes, in conference with the other party leaders, to be put the house. 3) If no winner emerges, least popular choices will be eliminated and the process repeated (an exhaustive ballot, essentially) 4) All the party leaders (including the PM) will agree, beforehand, the the votes will be free votes, and the party's whips will agree to be bound by the result of the indicative votes.
Wasn’t this the idea that was hatched on here several days back?
It's essentially the "papal conclave" method. Except hopefully nobody has to die.
The UK is inventing new Constitution on the fly.
The UK has always invented its constitution on the fly. It’s what we do.
I am not a subscriber but if it’s Ivan Rogers speech, I’ve already read it. Not sure a former ambassador is the most reliable guide to economic consequences of any particular course of action.
He has a pretty damning analysis of the consequences of leaving with an unmanaged deal and I would like to see an equally robust counter argument before I'd want to jump off the cliff
Ivan Rogers, of course, was fire by Mrs May for the crime of being Too Competent.
Sam Gyimah is suggesting that he knows what Number 10's current thinking is.
1) Meaningful Vote. They expect to lose, hard. 2) They agree a series of indicative votes, in conference with the other party leaders, to be put the house. 3) If no winner emerges, least popular choices will be eliminated and the process repeated (an exhaustive ballot, essentially) 4) All the party leaders (including the PM) will agree, beforehand, the the votes will be free votes, and the party's whips will agree to be bound by the result of the indicative votes.
Sounds too much like common sense to be plausible. What's in it for Labour?
Labour really doesn't want to have to have its internal contradictions exposed any more than the Tories do. Labour's looking for a way to backpedal from their confused mess of a Brexit policy as much as the Tories.
By making the votes all be free votes, it's hoped that no one party will get the blame for the (almost certain) remain result this process will produce.
You may be right - I hope you are.
I struggle to see how we could Remain without a further referendum though.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
I am, I confess, having some issues understanding your reasoning.
It seems to be: forecasts of instant doom, made by Osborne and the Treasury, to occur following the referendum were false.
Therefore everything will be fine following No Deal crashout, and all the industry concerns from all sectors across the piece can be safely ignored and what you want to believe will, in fact, be what happens. You don't seem to have ever addressed any of the issues raised, merely shouting about false forecasts in the past.
I'm genuinely worried. Put my fears to rest - please. And not with a fairy tale of "I don't want to believe that so it won't happen," because that's all that's coming across at the moment.
Articulate why you have such fears in a comprehensible manner rather than simply regurgitate Hammonds reincarnation of Project Fear.
I am not a subscriber but if it’s Ivan Rogers speech, I’ve already read it. Not sure a former ambassador is the most reliable guide to economic consequences of any particular course of action.
He has a pretty damning analysis of the consequences of leaving with an unmanaged deal and I would like to see an equally robust counter argument before I'd want to jump off the cliff
Regardless, government is increasingly aware of the risks, and it underlines why, apart from a few extremists, they simply won't countenance no deal. The economic consequences and hence the political risks are too severe.
Articulate why you have such fears in a comprehensible manner rather than simply regurgitate Hammonds reincarnation of Project Fear.
1 - Supply chains. These are embedded around the EU to take advantage of economies of scale and specialisation.
2 - Port delays. The delays at Dover and the tailbacks and disruption that would occur as soon as we leave without any deal which reflects a common recognition of standards and checks are well known. Unless we simply throw open the borders and check nothing (which won't help on the way out), the lorry parks in Kent will exist. (And if we throw open our borders and accept whatever comes in, unchecked and unregistered, what the hell did we 'take back control' of?). What is going to be tied up in the ports and the M20/M2 lorry parks?
3 - Supply chains redux. We know that supermarkets don't keep extensive stocks - that's economic suicide. Even with them stockpiling where they can, the shelves could run out quickly if lorries aren't coming in regularly, and if they're in a big truck jam, they won't be coming in regularly. Panic buying can accompany this.
4 - Supply chains redux again. Factories (which aren't getting their widgets- the ones they do something to - going to and fro regularly) are also going to have to get the widgets-for-incorporation stockpiled rather than delivered just-in-time. This will be an additional shock/disruption.
5 - Medical and others - we import medicines quite a lot (again, economies of scale and specialisation). Medicines which have to hit certain regulations and standards. We can do emergency shipments (as if we're a third world country that's had a natural disaster), but that's not sustainable and fraught with issues. What happens in the medium term here?
6 - The Irish border. Unless we accept a sort of de facto backstop where Northern Ireland accepts everything from the Republic whatever the standards and regulations that applies to it (and there will certainly be chancers around for this), there's a hard border and shit happens there.
That's just off the top of my head.
What Mini component(s) cross the channel multiple times? How many Mini components cross the channel multiple times? What percentage of components cross the channel multiple times? Pretty basic info.
What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
Ah yes, Project Fear again.
Indeed.
Wolf, wolf!
Many leavers have forgotten how the story ends.
But they will shortly be reminded.
Unlike Remainers, most Leavers don’t believe in fairy tales.
I am, I confess, having some issues understanding your reasoning.
It seems to be: forecasts of instant doom, made by Osborne and the Treasury, to occur following the referendum were false.
Therefore everything will be fine following No Deal crashout, and all the industry concerns from all sectors across the piece can be safely ignored and what you want to believe will, in fact, be what happens. You don't seem to have ever addressed any of the issues raised, merely shouting about false forecasts in the past.
I'm genuinely worried. Put my fears to rest - please. And not with a fairy tale of "I don't want to believe that so it won't happen," because that's all that's coming across at the moment.
Articulate why you have such fears in a comprehensible manner rather than simply regurgitate Hammonds reincarnation of Project Fear.
I am not a subscriber but if it’s Ivan Rogers speech, I’ve already read it. Not sure a former ambassador is the most reliable guide to economic consequences of any particular course of action.
Anyone is worth listening to as long as they aren't an economist.
Sam Gyimah is suggesting that he knows what Number 10's current thinking is.
1) Meaningful Vote. They expect to lose, hard. 2) They agree a series of indicative votes, in conference with the other party leaders, to be put the house. 3) If no winner emerges, least popular choices will be eliminated and the process repeated (an exhaustive ballot, essentially) 4) All the party leaders (including the PM) will agree, beforehand, the the votes will be free votes, and the party's whips will agree to be bound by the result of the indicative votes.
Wasn’t this the idea that was hatched on here several days back?
It's essentially the "papal conclave" method. Except hopefully nobody has to die.
The UK is inventing new Constitution on the fly.
A similar thing was done for Lord's reform proposals.
Is that why the new 15 year rail Wales franchise negotiated by labour is in chaos and disarray
I doubt it given that Lee Waters has only been in post a couple of days now...
But, still, I was a frequent traveller on the previous franchise (Arriva Trains Wales). It was, without doubt, the single worst train company I've ever travelled on. Not that our "local" train company, GWR, exactly cover themselves in glory; and there are very few operators I'd consider respectable. Chiltern, perhaps, and London Overground. London Midland were ok but I haven't travelled enough by their replacements to judge.
South West Trains used to be good but they lost their franchise to FirstGroup/MTR (South Western Railway) and it's all gone tits up since then. But I am sure FirstGroup offered more dosh, so that's all fine then
Nationalise the lot. Franchising simply does not work.
I have used the East Coast Mainline to travel to Aberdeen for the last 5 years. The Operators run a system called Delay/Repay which means that if your train is more than an hour late you get your full fare back.
In the 4 or so years up to June this year I had to claim exactly once, in early 2017.
In the 6 months since the publicly owned LNER took over from Virgin I have had to claim 4 times. Needles to say I am not impressed with the way the service has deteriorated.
1 - Supply chains. These are embedded around the EU to take advantage of economies of scale and specialisation. For example, a single component at the Mini factory in Oxford can cross into and out of the UK several times before being installed. Without membership of the Single market (with its associated common regulations, underwriting, and standards-checking regime), what happens here? This is just one factory out of a huge number in the UK. Do they all start manufacturing in-house? How much disruption is caused and jobs lost?
2 - Port delays. The delays at Dover and the tailbacks and disruption that would occur as soon as we leave without any deal which reflects a common recognition of standards and checks are well known. Unless we simply throw open the borders and check nothing (which won't help on the way out), the lorry parks in Kent will exist. (And if we throw open our borders and accept whatever comes in, unchecked and unregistered, what the hell did we 'take back control' of?). What is going to be tied up in the ports and the M20/M2 lorry parks?
3 - Supply chains redux. We know that supermarkets don't keep extensive stocks - that's economic suicide. Even with them stockpiling where they can, the shelves could run out quickly if lorries aren't coming in regularly, and if they're in a big truck jam, they won't be coming in regularly. Panic buying can accompany this.
4 - Supply chains redux again. Factories (which aren't getting their widgets- the ones they do something to - going to and fro regularly) are also going to have to get the widgets-for-incorporation stockpiled rather than delivered just-in-time. This will be an additional shock/disruption.
5 - Medical and others - we import medicines quite a lot (again, economies of scale and specialisation). Medicines which have to hit certain regulations and standards. We can do emergency shipments (as if we're a third world country that's had a natural disaster), but that's not sustainable and fraught with issues. What happens in the medium term here?
6 - The Irish border.
I was at an event held by the dairy industry the other week. There was general consternation at the lack of information about what will happen after 29 March. Most milk used in the UK is home produced but large quantities of butter and cream are imported, cream from Holland and butter from Ireland. Producers are stockpiling butter, which can be frozen, but there is limited capacity for storage. Cream cannot be stockpiled and supplies would dry up in a few days if there delays at cross channel ports. The general expectation was that a no deal Brexit would mean shortages of some items and big price increases for those that were available.
Sam Gyimah is suggesting that he knows what Number 10's current thinking is.
1) Meaningful Vote. They expect to lose, hard. 2) They agree a series of indicative votes, in conference with the other party leaders, to be put the house. 3) If no winner emerges, least popular choices will be eliminated and the process repeated (an exhaustive ballot, essentially) 4) All the party leaders (including the PM) will agree, beforehand, the the votes will be free votes, and the party's whips will agree to be bound by the result of the indicative votes.
Wasn’t this the idea that was hatched on here several days back?
Can MPs have some of these votes by secret ballot or must they traipse through the lobbies, causing some to change their vote out of sheer fear of the mob? That's what 'respecting the vote' is code for.
Articulate why you have such fears in a comprehensible manner rather than simply regurgitate Hammonds reincarnation of Project Fear.
That's just off the top of my head.
What Mini component(s) cross the channel multiple times? How many Mini components cross the channel multiple times? What percentage of components cross the channel multiple times? Pretty basic info.
Given the SM has existed for ~25 years, it's not unreasonable for businesses to have evolved and adapted to the business climate afforded by the SEA.
It's also not unreasonable for people to worry about the effect of a rapid change in that business climate. A goodly number of FDI decisions were made on the basis that the UK was a member of the SM, and Brexit is going to cause those decisions to be reassessed, and frankly, not necessarily in the UK's favour (though note the big tech companies have made large and recent investments in the UK).
One of the effects of the Single Market (as an emergent behaviour ) is that European economies have begun to specialise, hence our dependency on imported pharma as one example.
Business will adapt; it always does. However, the idea that businesses can just take any change in its stride, no matter what the delta is frankly silly.
I'm very worried about the insouciance of some Leavers about 'no deal'. It's not so much trade as *commerce*, which includes pure services, goods-dependent services and capital flows around Europe and beyond.
I say that as PB's #1 Supreme Brexiteer and lifelong member of the League of Empire Loyalists . The burden of proof is on the no-dealers. Simply throwing down 'WTO terms' doth not an answer make.
For example what happens to the UK-US aviation agreement that is currently via the European Open Skies agreement. Repeat for every other country in the world outside the European Union.
Can't believe I missed that. And that America didn't take the chance to screw us further like they had been threatening.
The air traffic is a good example of why the most extreme of the extreme disaster situations won't occur under No Deal Brexit, as it would absolutely screw everybody, not just the UK.
Those wanting to realistically warn about the dangers should be concentrating on the much more likely scenarios that because of increased checks etc, JIT approaches can't operate, thus more warehousing requires / slower rates of production and processing, resulting in higher cost to the consumer.
That's a fair point, as are your examples. Personally I think there will be quite serious disruption at airports in the UK and in Europe, dnot due to grounded planes but because the changing processes will cause a lot of confusion and at most airports it only takes a very minor issue to escalate to serious delays.
I wouldn't be surprised either. Airports now operate at an incredibly pace and massive numbers of people pass through every day. Changes to any procedures, I am sure will initially cause disruption.
Isn't the economy in general optimised for efficiency rather than robustness?
No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
The craiziest thing about the current situation is that people are vehemently opposing things they have not bothered to get the slightest understanding of.
Ah e you explain the difference between FOM and May’s mobility provisions whilst you’re at it and explain why we won’t have to pay to trade just because the WA is silent in the issue. Seems to me you haven’t thought about the issues for someone who claims others are the numpties.
Honestly, you are just making yourself look stupid now.
"Key question: Does the withdrawal agreement end free movement of people?
Yes, free movement ends at the end of the transition period, unless the UK and EU decide to sign a separate treaty as part of the future relationship extending free movement in the future. Currently the UK government opposes this idea. "
“....unless...” And your irrational confidence that the EU won’t insist on this as the price for a trade deal is or that the U.K. won’t cave in to secure a trade agreement is ? Stupid is as stupid does.
.
I have been an ex-pat working abroad. Filling in a few forms is not that difficult. Immigration apartheid on the other hand is abhorrent.
So extend FOM. I have had (and lost) a great NZ employee. I would extend it, not retract it. That’s cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Great - but we voted to leave and stop it.
Which May's Deal would do. Sadly though for you, it looks like your extreme Brexiteer comrades are going to to blow it and we'll be Remaining after all.
Ah yes, the Hammond labelling of all Brexit supporters as extremists. Funny how quick Remainers are to resort to insults. FOM was a big reason Leave won. There were riots in Brussels today about fears of more immigration. I don’t want riots in the UK. Ending FOM will suit me.
Was that riot about migration within the EU or from outside the EU?
Sam Gyimah is suggesting that he knows what Number 10's current thinking is.
1) Meaningful Vote. They expect to lose, hard. 2) They agree a series of indicative votes, in conference with the other party leaders, to be put the house. 3) If no winner emerges, least popular choices will be eliminated and the process repeated (an exhaustive ballot, essentially) 4) All the party leaders (including the PM) will agree, beforehand, the the votes will be free votes, and the party's whips will agree to be bound by the result of the indicative votes.
Wasn’t this the idea that was hatched on here several days back?
Can MPs have some of these votes by secret ballot or must they traipse through the lobbies, causing some to change their vote out of sheer fear of the mob? That's what 'respecting the vote' is code for.
Divisions are a matter of record. Mainly so that voters know what their MP did while in the Commons.
Sam Gyimah is suggesting that he knows what Number 10's current thinking is.
1) Meaningful Vote. They expect to lose, hard. 2) They agree a series of indicative votes, in conference with the other party leaders, to be put the house. 3) If no winner emerges, least popular choices will be eliminated and the process repeated (an exhaustive ballot, essentially) 4) All the party leaders (including the PM) will agree, beforehand, the the votes will be free votes, and the party's whips will agree to be bound by the result of the indicative votes.
Sounds too much like common sense to be plausible. What's in it for Labour?
Labour really doesn't want to have to have its internal contradictions exposed any more than the Tories do. Labour's looking for a way to backpedal from their confused mess of a Brexit policy as much as the Tories.
By making the votes all be free votes, it's hoped that no one party will get the blame for the (almost certain) remain result this process will produce.
And they must all be desperate for something they looks like they have recovered the initiative and are working through things. The reputational damage to all politicians over recent months has been severe.
No, a very narrow majority of those who actually voted, voted to leave the EU. That was all.
Spot on. No one can dictate what form Leave MUST take. For me and many other Leavers May's deal. although far from perfect is certainly Leave which is why it should be supported - if only for fear of allowing Remain back in.
Edit; since I notice I have answered two points from you in succession, Evening by the way
Articulate why you have such fears in a comprehensible manner rather than simply regurgitate Hammonds reincarnation of Project Fear.
1 - Supply chains. These are embedded around the EU to take advantage of economies of scale and specialisation. For example, a single component at the Mini factory in Oxford can cross into and out of the UK several times before being
2 - Port delays. The delays at Dover and the tailbacks and disruption that would occur as soon as we leave without any deal which reflects a common recognition of standards and checks are well known. Unless we simply throw open the borders and check nothing (which won't help on the way out), the lorry parks in Kent will exist. (And if we throw open our borders and accept whatever comes in, unchecked and unregistered, what the hell did we 'take back control' of?). What is going to be tied up in the ports and the M20/M2 lorry parks?
3 - Supply chains redux. We know that supermarkets don't keep extensive stocks - that's economic suicide. Even with them stockpiling where they can, the shelves could run out quickly if lorries aren't coming in regularly, and if they're in a big truck jam, they won't be coming in regularly. Panic buying can accompany this.
4 - Supply chains redux again. Factories (which aren't getting their widgets- the ones they do something to - going to and fro regularly) are also going to have to get the widgets-for-incorporation stockpiled rather than delivered just-in-time. This will be an additional shock/disruption.
5 - Medical and others - we import medicines quite a lot (again, economies of scale and specialisation). Medicines which have to hit certain regulations and standards. We can do emergency shipments (as if we're a third world country that's had a natural disaster), but that's not sustainable and fraught with issues. What happens in the medium term here?
6 - The Irish border. Unless we accept a sort of de facto backstop where Northern Ireland accepts everything from the Republic whatever the standards and regulations that applies to it (and there will certainly be chancers around for this), there's a hard border and shit happens there.
That's just off the top of my head.
What Mini component(s) cross the channel multiple times? How many Mini components cross the channel multiple times? What percentage of components cross the channel multiple times? Pretty basic info.
But as a Brexiteer you know the answer.
You simply must to have any creditabilty on JIT manufacturing and the impact on the no deal you want
Articulate why you have such fears in a comprehensible manner rather than simply regurgitate Hammonds reincarnation of Project Fear.
That's just off the top of my head.
What Mini component(s) cross the channel multiple times? How many Mini components cross the channel multiple times? What percentage of components cross the channel multiple times? Pretty basic info.
Given the SM has existed for ~25 years, it's not unreasonable for businesses to have evolved and adapted to the business climate afforded by the SEA.
It's also not unreasonable for people to worry about the effect of a rapid change in that business climate. A goodly number of FDI decisions were made on the basis that the UK was a member of the SM, and Brexit is going to cause those decisions to be reassessed, and frankly, not necessarily in the UK's favour (though note the big tech companies have made large and recent investments in the UK).
One of the effects of the Single Market (as an emergent behaviour ) is that European economies have begun to specialise, hence our dependency on imported pharma as one example.
Business will adapt; it always does. However, the idea that businesses can just take any change in its stride, no matter what the delta is frankly silly.
I'm very worried about the insouciance of some Leavers about 'no deal'. It's not so much trade as *commerce*, which includes pure services, goods-dependent services and capital flows around Europe and beyond.
I say that as PB's #1 Supreme Brexiteer and lifelong member of the League of Empire Loyalists . The burden of proof is on the no-dealers. Simply throwing down 'WTO terms' doth not an answer make.
The trouble is, so many of them are like Nadine Dorries, starting from what they want to believe and then searching, sifting and disregarding evidence and argumentation accordingly.
I was at an event held by the dairy industry the other week. There was general consternation at the lack of information about what will happen after 29 March. Most milk used in the UK is home produced but large quantities of butter and cream are imported, cream from Holland and butter from Ireland. Producers are stockpiling butter, which can be frozen, but there is limited capacity for storage. Cream cannot be stockpiled and supplies would dry up in a few days if there delays at cross channel ports. The general expectation was that a no deal Brexit would mean shortages of some items and big price increases for those that were available.
Surely the root cause of that though is that for years farmers were forced to pour milk down the drain because of quotas. If they have any foresight farmers should welcome the fact they would be able to start building their dairy herds again.
Comments
There are ways of retaining FOM while leaving the EU, as you well know.
Brexitism and logic make poor bedfellows.
There's nothing wrong with the total level of immigration that we have. We should be loosening immigration controls on Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians as we tighten them on people from the 26 EU countries (excluding Ireland, for obvious reasons).
That sucks for your daughter. Would say, hope they sort it out but that won't happen any time soon.
The problem is and always has been unfortunately that ultimately all railways in the UK point towards London. That's great in Scotland, where traffic basically flows to Edinburgh or Glasgow and then on. It's rubbish in Wales where there is actually no railway line from north to south - and never really has been (yes, in pencil you can trace a line Cardiff, Swansea, Carmarthen, Aberystwyth, Machynlleth, Pwllheli, Bangor, but it involved at least three changes).
I don't see it ever being fixed, bluntly, given the logistics and economics. Much mocked though Ieuan Air was, it was probably the right idea for Wales.
Nothing must get in the way of the One True Brexit!
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/07/most-leave-voters-back-free-movement-you-just-have-explain-it
I think the only thing we can criticise him for there is undue generosity.
Her route is either through Crewe or Wrexham
However, that's not what I want, so it's goodbye to the indivisible Four Freedoms. Pity, but those are the rules. I can't be any clearer without using crayons. You can disagree with me, of course.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/07/29/the-welsh-vote-could-give-thomas-the-edge-for-spoty/
But, still, I was a frequent traveller on the previous franchise (Arriva Trains Wales). It was, without doubt, the single worst train company I've ever travelled on. Not that our "local" train company, GWR, exactly cover themselves in glory; and there are very few operators I'd consider respectable. Chiltern, perhaps, and London Overground. London Midland were ok but I haven't travelled enough by their replacements to judge.
I have superb employees from Italy and Romania. I had superb employees from Australia and New Zealand. The latter had to go home because we couldn't get visas for them.
Superb employees should be able to come and stay wherever they are from.
I'll get my coat.
Goodnight.
Crayons are unnecessary.
The illogicality of your position is crystal clear when written in normal ink.
2 - Port delays. The delays at Dover and the tailbacks and disruption that would occur as soon as we leave without any deal which reflects a common recognition of standards and checks are well known. Unless we simply throw open the borders and check nothing (which won't help on the way out), the lorry parks in Kent will exist. (And if we throw open our borders and accept whatever comes in, unchecked and unregistered, what the hell did we 'take back control' of?). What is going to be tied up in the ports and the M20/M2 lorry parks?
3 - Supply chains redux. We know that supermarkets don't keep extensive stocks - that's economic suicide. Even with them stockpiling where they can, the shelves could run out quickly if lorries aren't coming in regularly, and if they're in a big truck jam, they won't be coming in regularly. Panic buying can accompany this.
4 - Supply chains redux again. Factories (which aren't getting their widgets- the ones they do something to - going to and fro regularly) are also going to have to get the widgets-for-incorporation stockpiled rather than delivered just-in-time. This will be an additional shock/disruption.
5 - Medical and others - we import medicines quite a lot (again, economies of scale and specialisation). Medicines which have to hit certain regulations and standards. We can do emergency shipments (as if we're a third world country that's had a natural disaster), but that's not sustainable and fraught with issues. What happens in the medium term here?
6 - The Irish border. Unless we accept a sort of de facto backstop where Northern Ireland accepts everything from the Republic whatever the standards and regulations that applies to it (and there will certainly be chancers around for this), there's a hard border and shit happens there.
That's just off the top of my head.
Brahim Belkaid was able to settle in Leicester almost five years ago after returning to Europe from Syria, where he is suspected of supporting terrorists.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/may-let-german-who-launched-140-jihadists-live-in-leicester-m68x2hf38
I know, my daughter is a regular north - south Wales business traveller.
They're not extremists, they're just very, very stupid.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1074423071371657216
The divisions seem as open as they ever were.
https://twitter.com/RLong_Bailey/status/1074357371194040320
The comment is far from fatuous, it is well on the way to happening
Those wanting to realistically warn about the dangers should be concentrating on the much more likely scenarios that because of increased checks etc, JIT approaches can't operate, thus more warehousing requires / slower rates of production and processing, resulting in higher cost to the consumer.
A total of 93,000 retail jobs have been lost in the past year amid a crunch on the High Street.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/news/article-6501825/Britains-High-Street-crisis-claims-93-000-jobs-year-chains-going-bust-store-closures.html
Everything positive is despite Brexit
You should know the drill by now :-)
1) Meaningful Vote. They expect to lose, hard.
2) They agree a series of indicative votes, in conference with the other party leaders, to be put the house.
3) If no winner emerges, least popular choices will be eliminated and the process repeated (an exhaustive ballot, essentially)
4) All the party leaders (including the PM) will agree, beforehand, the the votes will be free votes, and the party's whips will agree to be bound by the result of the indicative votes.
How many Mini components cross the channel multiple times?
What percentage of components cross the channel multiple times?
Pretty basic info.
https://www.itv.com/news/2018-12-16/consumers-hit-the-shops-but-weekend-footfall-down-on-last-year/
By making the votes all be free votes, it's hoped that no one party will get the blame for the (almost certain) remain result this process will produce.
However, I believe it when I see it
I remember after 9/11, when they made big changes to security checks and there were a lot of delays to get through to air side. Now, they have stream lined all of that, with the automated tray thingy and you can normally get through pretty quickly.
The UK is inventing new Constitution on the fly.
You simply must to have any creditabilty on JIT manufacturing and the impact on the no deal you want
I struggle to see how we could Remain without a further referendum though.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu
Seems a bit unnecessary to me, but then I am not in that line of work.
In the 4 or so years up to June this year I had to claim exactly once, in early 2017.
In the 6 months since the publicly owned LNER took over from Virgin I have had to claim 4 times. Needles to say I am not impressed with the way the service has deteriorated.
It's also not unreasonable for people to worry about the effect of a rapid change in that business climate. A goodly number of FDI decisions were made on the basis that the UK was a member of the SM, and Brexit is going to cause those decisions to be reassessed, and frankly, not necessarily in the UK's favour (though note the big tech companies have made large and recent investments in the UK).
One of the effects of the Single Market (as an emergent behaviour ) is that European economies have begun to specialise, hence our dependency on imported pharma as one example.
Business will adapt; it always does. However, the idea that businesses can just take any change in its stride, no matter what the delta is frankly silly.
I'm very worried about the insouciance of some Leavers about 'no deal'. It's not so much trade as *commerce*, which includes pure services, goods-dependent services and capital flows around Europe and beyond.
I say that as PB's #1 Supreme Brexiteer and lifelong member of the League of Empire Loyalists
Edit; since I notice I have answered two points from you in succession, Evening by the way