No point in treating the voters as a homogenous mass. No one voter could be sure how all the other voters would vote so there was no way any of us could avoid or intentionally cause the 2017 GE outcome.
The only people who can really take the blame are May and her team for calling and then royally screwing up the election.
"No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances..." Well they should hold another election then.
I don't accept that. Voters didn't take the election seriously, in the sense that they didn't take account of the need for her mandate, and instead got distracted by trivia. Up to them, of course, but it's a bit rich blaming her for not being able to govern and force her deal through when the reason she can't govern is their votes.
As for another election, how would that help? A Corbyn minority government handling this mess?
I voted. How is it my fault?
Presumably you weren't one of the substantial number who voted Leave and then declined to vote for her so that she could implement it. Those are the specific voters who are at fault.
What an idiot.
TM called and managed to lose a 20 point lead at GE2017 by being so useless.
She then spent 2 years being a useless negotiator and brought back a useless deal.
The fact you think Austerity disabled people driven to suicide and the NHS on its knees is trivia says lots about you.
Unemployment half the rate the last Labour government left and the deficit down is not trivia either.
The fact the PM has spent 2 years hard at work to get this Deal only to face the useless opposition who will as usual put party politics above the national interest and the ideologues of the DUP and ERG is another point
History will judge TM.
Your view will not be how history judges her.
If she gets her deal through, then she will be hated but it will be one of the most remarkable political achievements in recent history given what happened in in 2017 and where we are now.
More likely she achieves nothing and is remembered as someone who got dealt a hospital pass, then made things worse, tried to see things through but was inadequate to the task.
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Well, voters made a catastrophic blunder in 2017, leaving a minority government to implement the already incredibly difficult task they had set in 2016. It's the voters, not the politicians landed with the impossible position, who are the shysters and fools. No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances, let alone when faced with the most contentious and difficult problem in half a century. And it's not helped by shysters such as the LibDems, who voted for the referendum but then refuse to support implementing the choice of the voters, still less by Labour who also voted for invoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her decision-making rather than treat it as something to be done behind closed doors by her alone and then presented as a fait accompli there might not have been quite so much opposition to it. Sure there are concerns about the backstop etc but some of the opposition seems very focused on her and her style of decision-making as much as on the contents of the deal. Her inability to forge a consensus amongst her own Cabinet let alone her own party has been a very serious flaw. Giving her even more power to ignore others was not the answer.
May treated the Brexit negotiations much like she treated the negotiations to get Abu Qatada deported. As an essentially administrative task implementing an instruction, which is how she presented it to the House even in today's speech. She is good at that. But Brexit is something very different from that and her skills have not been up to it since, whatever her achievements in getting a deal with the EU, she has failed to bring her own party with her. Perhaps such a task is impossible. It seems to me that the Tories have, whatever the formalities, fractured. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
Just think what could have been if in 2017 May had bothered to turn up to the debates, and campaigned with passion. If she'd allowed her Chancellor to take the fight to Corbynomics. How different could the last 18 month have been?
No point in treating the voters as a homogenous mass. No one voter could be sure how all the other voters would vote so there was no way any of us could avoid or intentionally cause the 2017 GE outcome.
The only people who can really take the blame are May and her team for calling and then royally screwing up the election.
"No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances..." Well they should hold another election then.
I don't accept that. Voters didn't take the election seriously, in the sense that they didn't take account of the need for her mandate, and instead got distracted by trivia. Up to them, of course, but it's a bit rich blaming her for not being able to govern and force her deal through when the reason she can't govern is their votes.
As for another election, how would that help? A Corbyn minority government handling this mess?
I voted. How is it my fault?
Presumably you weren't one of the substantial number who voted Leave and then declined to vote for her so that she could implement it. Those are the specific voters who are at fault.
What an idiot.
TM called and managed to lose a 20 point lead at GE2017 by being so useless.
She then spent 2 years being a useless negotiator and brought back a useless deal.
The fact you think Austerity disabled people driven to suicide and the NHS on its knees is trivia says lots about you.
Unemployment half the rate the last Labour government left and the deficit down is not trivia either.
The fact the PM has spent 2 years hard at work to get this Deal only to fact the useless opposition who will as usual put party politics above the national interest and the ideologues of the DUP and ERG is another point
She has not spent 2 years hard at work to get this Deal though! If she had she could have been selling it as she went along and brought Parliament with her.
She has spent most of the last year fighting elements of this Deal (like the backstop) only to surrender and meekly accept what Barnier and Varadkar had written. Anyone weak could do the latter.
What makes you think she has fought the backstop? She agreed with it.
Just think what could have been if in 2017 May had bothered to turn up to the debates, and campaigned with passion. If she'd allowed her Chancellor to take the fight to Corbynomics. How different could the last 18 month have been?
It’s clear the ERG will vote against even if a miracle happens on the backstop .
It’s about time these nutjobs were called out for what they are! They want a no deal and should be treated as acting against the national interest .
There seems to be real animosity between the ERG and the more moderate Tories and this could cause a complete fracture in the party .
Mays desperate delay to the vote is just another can kicking exercise , the EU will not open up the WA and realize the tide is turning . They will look to be constructive and give May some window dressing but not enough to avert the vote going down but also see the prize they’ve always wanted .
What better advert to other EU countries that being in is better than Leaving than the last two years of chaos in the UK and the inevitable momentum to a second vote where they hope the UK remains .
It’s of course risky but the EU I think are willing to take that chance .
Just think what could have been if in 2017 May had bothered to turn up to the debates, and campaigned with passion. If she'd allowed her Chancellor to take the fight to Corbynomics. How different could the last 18 month have been?
She can not campaign with passion, she believes in nothing. Her whole actions are determined by the last person she speaks with.
Just think what could have been if in 2017 May had bothered to turn up to the debates, and campaigned with passion. If she'd allowed her Chancellor to take the fight to Corbynomics. How different could the last 18 month have been?
I doubt it would have made any difference, though scrapping the dementia tax may have helped after 7 years of austerity the left were ready to rally behind Corbyn and most Remainers too to try and stop a hard Brexit
No point in treating the voters as a homogenous mass. No one voter could be sure how all the other voters would vote so there was no way any of us could avoid or intentionally cause the 2017 GE outcome.
The only people who can really take the blame are May and her team for calling and then royally screwing up the election.
"No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances..." Well they should hold another election then.
I don't accept that. Voters didn't take the election seriously, in the sense that they didn't take account of the need for her mandate, and instead got distracted by trivia. Up to them, of course, but it's a bit rich blaming her for not being able to govern and force her deal through when the reason she can't govern is their votes.
As for another election, how would that help? A Corbyn minority government handling this mess?
I voted. How is it my fault?
Presumably you weren't one of the substantial number who voted Leave and then declined to vote for her so that she could implement it. Those are the specific voters who are at fault.
What an idiot.
TM called and managed to lose a 20 point lead at GE2017 by being so useless.
She then spent 2 years being a useless negotiator and brought back a useless deal.
The fact you think Austerity disabled people driven to suicide and the NHS on its knees is trivia says lots about you.
Unemployment half the rate the last Labour government left and the deficit down is not trivia either.
The fact the PM has spent 2 years hard at work to get this Deal only to face the useless opposition who will as usual put party politics above the national interest and the ideologues of the DUP and ERG is another point
History will judge TM.
Your view will not be how history judges her.
If she gets her deal through, then she will be hated but it will be one of the most remarkable political achievements in recent history given what happened in in 2017 and where we are now.
More likely she achieves nothing and is remembered as someone who got dealt a hospital pass, then made things worse, tried to see things through but was inadequate to the task.
The Hospital passer will also be judged harshly not just by Danny Dyer.
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Well, voters made a catastrophic blunder in 2017, leaving a minority government to implement the already incredibly difficult task they had set in 2016. It's the voters, not the politicians landed with the impossible position, who are the shysters and fools. No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances, let alone when faced with the most contentious and difficult problem in half a century. And it's not helped by shysters such as the LibDems, who voted for the referendum but then refuse to support implementing the choice of the voters, still less by Labour who also voted for invoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her decision-making rather than treat it as something to be done behind closed doors by her alone and then presented as a fait accompli there might not have been quite so much opposition to it. Sure there are concerns about the backstop etc but some of the opposition seems very focused on her and her style of decision-making as much as on the contents of the deal. Her inability to forge a consensus amongst her own Cabinet let alone her own party has been a very serious flaw. Giving her even more power to ignore others was not the answer.
May treated the Brexit negotiations much like she treated the negotiations to get Abu Qatada deported. As an essentially administrative task implementing an instruction, which is how she presented it to the House even in today's speech. She is good at that. But Brexit is something very different from that and her skills have not been up to it since, whatever her achievements in getting a deal with the EU, she has failed to bring her own party with her. Perhaps such a task is impossible. It seems to me that the Tories have, whatever the formalities, fractured. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
You should have seen how scathing Mandelson was about the inept Labour opposition on Newsnight tonight
It’s clear the ERG will vote against even if a miracle happens on the backstop .
It’s about time these nutjobs were called out for what they are! They want a no deal and should be treated as acting against the national interest .
There seems to be real animosity between the ERG and the more moderate Tories and this could cause a complete fracture in the party .
Mays desperate delay to the vote is just another can kicking exercise , the EU will not open up the WA and realize the tide is turning . They will look to be constructive and give May some window dressing but not enough to avert the vote going down but also see the prize they’ve always wanted .
What better advert to other EU countries that being in is better than Leaving than the last two years of chaos in the UK and the inevitable momentum to a second vote where they hope the UK remains .
It’s of course risky but the EU I think are willing to take that chance .
No point in treating the voters as a homogenous mass. No one voter could be sure how all the other voters would vote so there was no way any of us could avoid or intentionally cause the 2017 GE outcome.
The only people who can really take the blame are May and her team for calling and then royally screwing up the election.
"No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances..." Well they should hold another election then.
I don't accept that. Voters didn't take the election seriously, in the sense that they didn't take account of the need for her mandate, and instead got distracted by trivia. Up to them, of course, but it's a bit rich blaming her for not being able to govern and force her deal through when the reason she can't govern is their votes.
As for another election, how would that help? A Corbyn minority government handling this mess?
I voted. How is it my fault?
Presumably you weren't one of the substantial number who voted Leave and then declined to vote for her so that she could implement it. Those are the specific voters who are at fault.
What an idiot.
TM called and managed to lose a 20 point lead at GE2017 by being so useless.
She then spent 2 years being a useless negotiator and brought back a useless deal.
The fact you think Austerity disabled people driven to suicide and the NHS on its knees is trivia says lots about you.
Unemployment half the rate the last Labour government left and the deficit down is not trivia either.
The fact the PM has spent 2 years hard at work to get this Deal only to fact the useless opposition who will as usual put party politics above the national interest and the ideologues of the DUP and ERG is another point
She has not spent 2 years hard at work to get this Deal though! If she had she could have been selling it as she went along and brought Parliament with her.
She has spent most of the last year fighting elements of this Deal (like the backstop) only to surrender and meekly accept what Barnier and Varadkar had written. Anyone weak could do the latter.
Without the backstop there will be no deal but apart from the backstop Parliament agrees with most of the rest she has agreed with the EU
No point in treating the voters as a homogenous mass. No one voter could be sure how all the other voters would vote so there was no way any of us could avoid or intentionally cause the 2017 GE outcome.
The only people who can really take the blame are May and her team for calling and then royally screwing up the election.
"No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances..." Well they should hold another election then.
I don't accept that. Voters didn't take the election seriously, in the sense that they didn't take account of the need for her mandate, and instead got distracted by trivia. Up to them, of course, but it's a bit rich blaming her for not being able to govern and force her deal through when the reason she can't govern is their votes.
As for another election, how would that help? A Corbyn minority government handling this mess?
I voted. How is it my fault?
Presumably you weren't one of the substantial number who voted Leave and then declined to vote for her so that she could implement it. Those are the specific voters who are at fault.
What an idiot.
TM called and managed to lose a 20 point lead at GE2017 by being so useless.
She then spent 2 years being a useless negotiator and brought back a useless deal.
The fact you think Austerity disabled people driven to suicide and the NHS on its knees is trivia says lots about you.
Unemployment half the rate the last Labour government left and the deficit down is not trivia either.
The fact the PM has spent 2 years hard at work to get this Deal only to face the useless opposition who will as usual put party politics above the national interest and the ideologues of the DUP and ERG is another point
Just think what could have been if in 2017 May had bothered to turn up to the debates, and campaigned with passion. If she'd allowed her Chancellor to take the fight to Corbynomics. How different could the last 18 month have been?
We are where we are though ! Labour should abstain, and then bring the Govt down with DUP votes.
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Well, voters made a catastrophic blunder in 2017, leaving a minority government to implement the already incredibly difficult task they had set in 2016. It's the voters, not the politicians landed with the impossible position, who are the shysters and fools. No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances, let alone when faced with the most contentious and difficult problem in half a century. And it's not helped by shysters such as the LibDems, who voted for the referendum but then refuse to support implementing the choice of the voters, still less by Labour who also voted for invoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had.
An election campaign in the middle of the Transition/Implementation Period wouldn't have been a bright idea either.
Looking forward when does May return and announce whatever has been decided with the Europe meeting this week?
Surely she needs a large rabbit being pulled from the hat, otherwise if she has postponed the vote due to inevitable failure but achieved no reforms then what is the point her staying on? Her next speech has to be make or break surely?
No as no alternative leader would get anything different, as the EU have repeated yet again today without the backstop there is No Deal, end of conversation, all they will do is try and help get it ratified
How do you know the EU are telling the truth today?
I know you believe in a unicorn Brexit Deal where the EU will roll over, scrap the backstop and give us everything we want despite the need to keep the Union together and avoid any more Brexits and the fact they are a larger economy than we are but the rest of us live in the real world
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Well, voters made a catastrophic blunder in 2017, leaving a minority government to implement the already incredibly difficult task they had set in 2016. It's the voters, not the politicians landed with the impossible position, who are the shysters and fools. No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances, let alone when faced with the most contentious and difficult problem in half a century. And it's not helped by shysters such as the LibDems, who voted for the referendum but then refuse to support implementing the choice of the voters, still less by Labour who also voted for invoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her decision-making rather than treat it as something to be done behind closed doors by her alone and then presented as a fait accompli there might not have been quite so much opposition to it. Sure there are concerns about the backstop etc but some of the opposition seems very focused on her and her style of decision-making as much as on the contents of the deal. Her inability to forge a consensus amongst her own Cabinet let alone her own party has been a very serious flaw. Giving her even more power to ignore others was not the answer.
May treated the Brexit negotiations much like she treated the negotiations to get Abu Qatada deported. As an essentially administrative task implementing an instruction, which is how she presented it to the House even in today's speech. She is good at that. But Brexit is something very different from that and her skills have not been up to it since, whatever her achievements in getting a deal with the EU, she has failed to bring her own party with her. Perhaps such a task is impossible. It seems to me that the Tories have, whatever the formalities, fractured. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
You should have seen how scathing Mandelson was about the inept Labour opposition on Newsnight tonight
Since when had Mandelson been right about anything
It’s clear the ERG will vote against even if a miracle happens on the backstop .
It’s about time these nutjobs were called out for what they are! They want a no deal and should be treated as acting against the national interest .
There seems to be real animosity between the ERG and the more moderate Tories and this could cause a complete fracture in the party .
Mays desperate delay to the vote is just another can kicking exercise , the EU will not open up the WA and realize the tide is turning . They will look to be constructive and give May some window dressing but not enough to avert the vote going down but also see the prize they’ve always wanted .
What better advert to other EU countries that being in is better than Leaving than the last two years of chaos in the UK and the inevitable momentum to a second vote where they hope the UK remains .
It’s of course risky but the EU I think are willing to take that chance .
Why is no deal against the national interest?
As it will destroy the economy, potentially lead Scotland to vote for independence and create chaos in Ireland
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Well, voters made a catastrophic blunder in 2017, leaving a minority government to implement the already incredibly difficult task they had set in 2016. It's the voters, not the politicians landed with the impossible position, who are the shysters and fools. No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances, let alone when faced with the most contentious and difficult problem in half a century. And it's not helped by shysters such as the LibDems, who voted for the referendum but then refuse to support implementing the choice of the voters, still less by Labour who also voted for invoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her decision-making rather than treat it as something to be done behind closed doors by her alone and then presented as a fait accompli there might not have been quite so much opposition to it. Sure there are concerns about the backstop etc but some of the opposition seems very focused on her and her style of decision-making as much as on the contents of the deal. Her inability to forge a consensus amongst her own Cabinet let alone her own party has been a very serious flaw. Giving her even more power to ignore others was not the answer.
May treated the Brexit negotiations much like she treated the negotiations to get Abu Qatada deported. As an essentially administrative task implementing an instruction, which is how she presented it to the House even in today's speech. She is good at that. But Brexit is something very different from that and her skills have not been up to it since, whatever her achievements in getting a deal with the EU, she has failed to bring her own party with her. Perhaps such a task is impossible. It seems to me that the Tories have, whatever the formalities, fractured. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
You should have seen how scathing Mandelson was about the inept Labour opposition on Newsnight tonight
Since when had Mandelson been right about anything
Richard N desefves a small award for valiance on today's thread.
The BBC coverage actually seemed reasonably helpful to May (considering the situation), the ITV coverage utterly disastrous. I wish Peston would calm down a bit, though
It’s clear the ERG will vote against even if a miracle happens on the backstop .
It’s about time these nutjobs were called out for what they are! They want a no deal and should be treated as acting against the national interest .
There seems to be real animosity between the ERG and the more moderate Tories and this could cause a complete fracture in the party .
Mays desperate delay to the vote is just another can kicking exercise , the EU will not open up the WA and realize the tide is turning . They will look to be constructive and give May some window dressing but not enough to avert the vote going down but also see the prize they’ve always wanted .
What better advert to other EU countries that being in is better than Leaving than the last two years of chaos in the UK and the inevitable momentum to a second vote where they hope the UK remains .
It’s of course risky but the EU I think are willing to take that chance .
Why is no deal against the national interest?
As it will destroy the economy, potentially lead Scotland to vote for independence and create chaos in Ireland
- ...and therefore having to delivery on the EU ref... - ...without including any mandate thresholds
Since Brexit is now legally the default option unless something else turns up, perhaps we should have a People's Vote wherein Remain needs to win 65% of the vote in order to prevent Brexit?
I think the result of that vote will clear up any remaining contention over these matters
I jest of course, but I think mandate thresholds are generally a poor idea, and particularly bad when applied to questions that (among other dimensions) encompass issues of identity or national destiny. I do think it would be harsh even from a pro-Remain perspective to judge Cameron poorly for failing to include such a threshold. In fact I'm not sure the counterfactual where he had done would leave us in a prettier spot today - it's likely that it would have inflated the Leave vote (both the underdog effect and the fact Brexit would have seemed even more vanishingly unlikely would have encouraged even more anti-government / anti-Tory / sod-the-lot-of-them protest voting) and we could still have been bequeathed a fractious and angry politics. Just one where the "dispossessed", the ones fed up with the Establishment and the current way the country is run, could have scored perhaps 55%+ of the vote and still be denied. Aside from whatever damage that would deal to people's faith in democracy (likely somewhat lifted by the still-inevitable Cameron resignation, so there would be some tangible fruit from the defeat), there'd have been a real risk of a populist tide even uglier than what was on display in the referendum campaign.
The fact the PM has spent 2 years hard at work to get this Deal only to fact the useless opposition who will as usual put party politics above the national interest and the ideologues of the DUP and ERG is another point
She has not spent 2 years hard at work to get this Deal though! If she had she could have been selling it as she went along and brought Parliament with her.
She has spent most of the last year fighting elements of this Deal (like the backstop) only to surrender and meekly accept what Barnier and Varadkar had written. Anyone weak could do the latter.
What makes you think she has fought the backstop? She agreed with it.
She was adamant she would "never" agree to that previously. But its there in the backstop in black and white, GB will be a 'third country' to a part of our country with a border in the Irish Sea.
It’s clear the ERG will vote against even if a miracle happens on the backstop .
It’s about time these nutjobs were called out for what they are! They want a no deal and should be treated as acting against the national interest .
There seems to be real animosity between the ERG and the more moderate Tories and this could cause a complete fracture in the party .
Mays desperate delay to the vote is just another can kicking exercise , the EU will not open up the WA and realize the tide is turning . They will look to be constructive and give May some window dressing but not enough to avert the vote going down but also see the prize they’ve always wanted .
What better advert to other EU countries that being in is better than Leaving than the last two years of chaos in the UK and the inevitable momentum to a second vote where they hope the UK remains .
It’s of course risky but the EU I think are willing to take that chance .
Why is no deal against the national interest?
As it will destroy the economy, potentially lead Scotland to vote for independence and create chaos in Ireland
"Destroy the economy" Please grow up.
No, it is about time No Deal Leavers faced up to the consequences of their actions, including the jobs and factories which will be lost
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Well, voters made a catastrophic blunder in 2017, leaving a minority government to implement the already incredibly difficult task they had set in 2016. It's the voters, not the politicians landed with the impossible position, who are the shysters and fools. No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances, let alone when faced with the most contentious and difficult problem in half a century. And it's not helped by shysters such as the LibDems, who voted for the referendum but then refuse to support implementing the choice of the voters, still less by Labour who also voted for invoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her dec. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
You should have seen how scathing Mandelson was about the inept Labour opposition on Newsnight tonight
Since when had Mandelson been right about anything
The only time Labour has won a general election in the last 40 years has been with Mandelson running the campaign
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Well, voters made a catastrophic blunder in 2017, leaving a minority government to implement the already incredibly difficult task they had set in 2016. It's the voters, not the politicians landed with the impossible position, who are the shysters and fools. No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances, let alone when faced with the most contentious and difficult problem in half a century. And it's not helped by shysters such as the LibDems, who voted for the referendum but then refuse to support implementing the choice of the voters, still less by Labour who also voted for invoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her decision-making rather than treat it as something to be done behind closed doors by her alone and then presented as a fait accompli there might not have been quite so much opposition to it. Sure there are concerns about the backstop etc but some of the opposition seems very focused on her and her style of decision-making as much as on the contents of the deal. Her inability to forge a consensus amongst her own Cabinet let alone her own party has been a very serious flaw. Giving her even more power to ignore others was not the answer.
May treated the Brexit negotiations much like she treated the negotiations to get Abu Qatada deported. As an essentially administrative task implementing an instruction, which is how she presented it to the House even in today's speech. She is good at that. But Brexit is something very different from that and her skills have not been up to it since, whatever her achievements in getting a deal with the EU, she has failed to bring her own party with her. Perhaps such a task is impossible. It seems to me that the Tories have, whatever the formalities, fractured. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
You should have seen how scathing Mandelson was about the inept Labour opposition on Newsnight tonight
Since when had Mandelson been right about anything
There is a chip shop in the NE that actually sells guacamole?
Without the backstop there will be no deal but apart from the backstop Parliament agrees with most of the rest she has agreed with the EU
Without the backstop there can be a deal which is why the backstop was not a part of the original negotiations put forward by the EU.
I know you live in this candy canes and unicorn world where everyone tells the truth all the time and nobody ever claims to have nothing else to offer when they really do but the rest of us live in the real world.
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Well, voters made a catastrophic blunder in 2017, leaving a minority government to implement the already incredibly difficult task they had set in 2016. It's the voters, not the politicians landed with the impossible position, who are the shysters and fools. No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances, let alone when faced with the most contentious and difficult problem in half a century. And it's not helped by shysters such as the LibDems, who voted for the referendum but then refuse to support implementing the choice of the voters, still less by Labour who also voted for invoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her decision-making rather than treat it as something to be done behind closed doors by her alone and then presented as a fait accompli there might not have been quite so much opposition to it. Sure there are concerns about the backstop etc but some of the opposition seems very focused on her and her style of decision-making as much as on the contents of the deal. Her inability to forge a consensus amongst her own Cabinet let alone her own party has been a very serious flaw. Giving her even more power to ignore others was not the answer.
May treated the Brexit negotiations much like she treated the negotiations to get Abu Qatada deported. As an essentially administrative task implementing an instruction, which is how she presented it to the House even in today's speech. She is good at that. But Brexit is something very different from that and her skills have not been up to it since, whatever her achievements in getting a deal with the EU, she has failed to bring her own party with her. Perhaps such a task is impossible. It seems to me that the Tories have, whatever the formalities, fractured. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
She appears to be a bloody difficult woman. She has been brought to this by her own character flaws, her own refusal to listen to advice. Hubris followed by Nemesis.
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Wnvoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her decision-making rather than treat it as something to be done behind closed doors by her alone and then presented as a fait accompli there might not have been quite so much opposition to it. Sure there are concerns about the backstop etc but some of the opposition seems very focused on her and her style of decision-making as much as on the contents of the deal. Her inability to forge a consensus amongst her own Cabinet let alone her own party has been a very serious flaw. Giving her even more power to ignore others was not the answer.
May treated the Brexit negotiations much like she treated the negotiations to get Abu Qatada deported. As an essentially administrative task implementing an instruction, which is how she presented it to the House even in today's speech. She is good at that. But Brexit is something very different from that and her skills have not been up to it since, whatever her achievements in getting a deal with the EU, she has failed to bring her own party with her. Perhaps such a task is impossible. It seems to me that the Tories have, whatever the formalities, fractured. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
You should have seen how scathing Mandelson was about the inept Labour opposition on Newsnight tonight
Since when had Mandelson been right about anything
There is a chip shop in the NE that actually sells guacamole?
Do not tell the Hartlepool bashers on here but they are very progressive cuisine with the garnish for their fish and chips.
She appears to be a bloody difficult woman. She has been brought to this by her own character flaws, her own refusal to listen to advice. Hubris followed by Nemesis.
Indeed which is why ironically the best way to get this deal to pass will be to have someone else present it.
If she goes, a new leader goes to Europe looking for changes and then comes back then either.
A: New leader gets something, situation improved, more likely to pass deal. B: New leader gets nothing, MPs more likely to believe nothing more can be got, more likely to pass deal.
The problem is nobody trusts May. And why should they? She is half the problem.
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Well, voters made a catastrophic blunder in 2017, leaving a minority government to implement the already incredibly difficult task they had set in 2016. It's the voters, not the politicians landed with the impossible position, who are the shysters and fools. No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances, let alone when faced with the most contentious and difficult problem in half a century. And it's not helped by shysters such as the LibDems, who voted for the referendum but then refuse to support implementing the choice of the voters, still less by Labour who also voted for invoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her decision-making rather than treat it as something to be done behind closed doors by her alone and then presented as a fait accompli there might not have been quite so much opposition to it. Sure there are concerns about the backstop etc but some of the opposition seems very focused on her and her style of decision-making as much as on the contents of the deal. Her inability to forge a consensus amongst her own Cabinet let alone her own party has been a very serious flaw. Giving her even more power to ignore others was not the answer.
May treated the Brexit negotiations much like she treated the negotiations to get Abu Qatada deported. As an essentially administrative task implementing an instruction, which is how she presented it to the House even in today's speech. She is good at that. But Brexit is something very different from that and her skills have not been up to it since, whatever her achievements in getting a deal with the EU, she has failed to bring her own party with her. Perhaps such a task is impossible. It seems to me that the Tories have, whatever the formalities, fractured. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
She appears to be a bloody difficult woman. She has been brought to this by her own character flaws, her own refusal to listen to advice. Hubris followed by Nemesis.
Yep. Trouble is it looks as if it will be us who suffer the Nemesis.
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Wnvoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her decision-making rather than treat it as something to be done behind closed doors by her alone and then presented as a fait accompli there might not have been quite so much opposition to it. Sure there are concerns about the backstop etc but some of the opposition seems very focused on her and her style of decision-making as much as on the contents of the deal. Her inability to forge a consensus amongst her own Cabinet let alone her own party has been a very serious flaw. Giving her even more power to ignore others was not the answer.
May treated the Brexit negotiations much like she treated the negotiations to get Abu Qatada deported. As an essentially administrative task implementing an instruction, which is how she presented it to the House even in today's speech. She is good at that. But Brexit is something very different from that and her skills have not been up to it since, whatever her achievements in getting a deal with the EU, she has failed to bring her own party with her. Perhaps such a task is impossible. It seems to me that the Tories have, whatever the formalities, fractured. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
You should have seen how scathing Mandelson was about the inept Labour opposition on Newsnight tonight
Since when had Mandelson been right about anything
There is a chip shop in the NE that actually sells guacamole?
Do not tell the Hartlepool bashers on here but they are very progressive cuisine with the garnish for their fish and chips.
Without the backstop there will be no deal but apart from the backstop Parliament agrees with most of the rest she has agreed with the EU
Without the backstop there can be a deal which is why the backstop was not a part of the original negotiations put forward by the EU.
I know you live in this candy canes and unicorn world where everyone tells the truth all the time and nobody ever claims to have nothing else to offer when they really do but the rest of us live in the real world.
Evidence? The EU has always been clear they will never agree to any Deal which does not have an open border in Ireland
She appears to be a bloody difficult woman. She has been brought to this by her own character flaws, her own refusal to listen to advice. Hubris followed by Nemesis.
Indeed which is why ironically the best way to get this deal to pass will be to have someone else present it.
If she goes, a new leader goes to Europe looking for changes and then comes back then either.
A: New leader gets something, situation improved, more likely to pass deal. B: New leader gets nothing, MPs more likely to believe nothing more can be got, more likely to pass deal.
The problem is nobody trusts May. And why should they? She is half the problem.
A Will not happen without backstop B The ERG and DUP and most Labour MPs will still vote against it regardless
So a new leader makes no difference, only EUref2 can probably enable the Deal to pass if voted for by the voters as the preferred Leave option over Remain and there is nearly a Commons majority now for that as there is not for the Deal or No Deal
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Well, voters made a catastrophic blunder in 2017, leaving a minority government to implement the already incredibly difficult task they had set in 2016. It's the voters, not the politicians landed with the impossible position, who are the shysters and fools. No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances, let alone when faced with the most contentious and difficult problem in half a century. And it's not helped by shysters such as the LibDems, who voted for the referendum but then refuse to support implementing the choice of the voters, still less by Labour who also voted for invoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her dec. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
You should have seen how scathing Mandelson was about the inept Labour opposition on Newsnight tonight
Since when had Mandelson been right about anything
The only time Labour has won a general election in the last 40 years has been with Mandelson running the campaign
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Well, voters made a catastrophic blunder in 2017, leaving a minority government to implement the already incredibly difficult task they had set in 2016. It's the voters, not the politicians landed with the impossible position, who are the shysters and fools. No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances, let alone when faced with the most contentious and difficult problem in half a century. And it's not helped by shysters such as the LibDems, who voted for the referendum but then refuse to support implementing the choice of the voters, still less by Labour who also voted for invoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her dec. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
You should have seen how scathing Mandelson was about the inept Labour opposition on Newsnight tonight
Since when had Mandelson been right about anything
The only time Labour has won a general election in the last 40 years has been with Mandelson running the campaign
Without the backstop there will be no deal but apart from the backstop Parliament agrees with most of the rest she has agreed with the EU
Without the backstop there can be a deal which is why the backstop was not a part of the original negotiations put forward by the EU.
I know you live in this candy canes and unicorn world where everyone tells the truth all the time and nobody ever claims to have nothing else to offer when they really do but the rest of us live in the real world.
Evidence? The EU has always been clear they will never agree to any Deal which does not have an open border in Ireland
Evidence is that in real life people compromise, that's the whole point of negotiations. We don't live in this fictional world where just because someone makes something clear that is reality.
The EU and Ireland don't want no deal. They want this backstop because they think they can get away with it. If they can't, that changes everything.
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Well, voters made a catastrophic blunder in 2017, leaving a minority government to implement the already incredibly difficult task they had set in 2016. It's the voters, not the politicians landed with the impossible position, who are the shysters and fools. No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances, let alone when faced with the most contentious and difficult problem in half a century. And it's not helped by shysters such as the LibDems, who voted for the referendum but then refuse to support implementing the choice of the voters, still less by Labour who also voted for invoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her dec. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
You should have seen how scathing Mandelson was about the inept Labour opposition on Newsnight tonight
Since when had Mandelson been right about anything
The only time Labour has won a general election in the last 40 years has been with Mandelson running the campaign
very interesting, but it fails to acknowledge the success of the Cameron campaign in 2015...which looking back appears increasingly impressive and May's decision to gamble it away was prob as catastrophic for the Tories as the BREXIT referendum itself.
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Well, voters made a catastrophic blunder in 2017, leaving a minority government to implement the already incredibly difficult task they had set in 2016. It's the voters, not the politicians landed with the impossible position, who are the shysters and fools. No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances, let alone when faced with the most contentious and difficult problem in half a century. And it's not helped by shysters such as the LibDems, who voted for the referendum but then refuse to support implementing the choice of the voters, still less by Labour who also voted for invoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her dec. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
You should have seen how scathing Mandelson was about the inept Labour opposition on Newsnight tonight
Since when had Mandelson been right about anything
The only time Labour has won a general election in the last 40 years has been with Mandelson running the campaign
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Well, voters made a catastrophic blunder in 2017, leaving a minority government to implement the already incredibly difficult task they had set in 2016. It's the voters, not the politicians landed with the impossible position, who are the shysters and fools. No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances, let alone when faced with the most contentious and difficult problem in half a century. And it's not helped by shysters such as the LibDems, who voted for the referendum but then refuse to support implementing the choice of the voters, still less by Labour who also voted for invoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her dec. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
You should have seen how scathing Mandelson was about the inept Labour opposition on Newsnight tonight
Since when had Mandelson been right about anything
The only time Labour has won a general election in the last 40 years has been with Mandelson running the campaign
Without the backstop there will be no deal but apart from the backstop Parliament agrees with most of the rest she has agreed with the EU
Without the backstop there can be a deal which is why the backstop was not a part of the original negotiations put forward by the EU.
I know you live in this candy canes and unicorn world where everyone tells the truth all the time and nobody ever claims to have nothing else to offer when they really do but the rest of us live in the real world.
Evidence? The EU has always been clear they will never agree to any Deal which does not have an open border in Ireland
Evidence is that in real life people compromise, that's the whole point of negotiations. We don't live in this fictional world where just because someone makes something clear that is reality.
The EU and Ireland don't want no deal. They want this backstop because they think they can get away with it. If they can't, that changes everything.
The EU are not that bothered about No Deal, it will hit them a bit but it will hit us far more as we are only 16% of their exports but they are 44% of ours and of course the EU have no desire to give up us a great exit Deal significantly better than this one as it would encourage other EU nations to consider leaving
We are governed by the biggest bunch of incompetent shysters and fools in our entire history. Who will believe a word any of them says in the future - 1110 the vote will be going ahead, 1115 oh no it won't. Doesn't bode well for any trade negotiations at all.
Well, voters made a catastrophic blunder in 2017, leaving a minority government to implement the already incredibly difficult task they had set in 2016. It's the voters, not the politicians landed with the impossible position, who are the shysters and fools. No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances, let alone when faced with the most contentious and difficult problem in half a century. And it's not helped by shysters such as the LibDems, who voted for the referendum but then refuse to support implementing the choice of the voters, still less by Labour who also voted for invoking Article 50.
When the Tories get big majorities they become unbearably arrogant. May had a majority. She should have worked with what she had. She became hubristic on the back of polls. Voters were right not to trust her with untrammelled power.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her dec. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
You should have seen how scathing Mandelson was about the inept Labour opposition on Newsnight tonight
Since when had Mandelson been right about anything
The only time Labour has won a general election in the last 40 years has been with Mandelson running the campaign
Without the backstop there will be no deal but apart from the backstop Parliament agrees with most of the rest she has agreed with the EU
Without the backstop there can be a deal which is why the backstop was not a part of the original negotiations put forward by the EU.
I know you live in this candy canes and unicorn world where everyone tells the truth all the time and nobody ever claims to have nothing else to offer when they really do but the rest of us live in the real world.
Evidence? The EU has always been clear they will never agree to any Deal which does not have an open border in Ireland
Evidence is that in real life people compromise, that's the whole point of negotiations. We don't live in this fictional world where just because someone makes something clear that is reality.
The EU and Ireland don't want no deal. They want this backstop because they think they can get away with it. If they can't, that changes everything.
The EU are not that bothered about No Deal, it will hit them a bit but it will hit us far more as we are only 16% of their exports but they are 44% of ours and of course the EU have no desire to give up us a great exit Deal significantly better than this one as it would encourage other EU nations to consider leaving
That stat is dishonest and irrelevant. It doesn't matter who is hit more, it matters whether people are OK with being hit or not. Furthermore you need to look at Irish figures not EU figures.
85% of Irish freight exports go to the UK or across the UK borders. Which is why they are trying to trap us within the single market and customs union.
Without the backstop there will be no deal but apart from the backstop Parliament agrees with most of the rest she has agreed with the EU
Without the backstop there can be a deal which is why the backstop was not a part of the original negotiations put forward by the EU.
I know you live in this candy canes and unicorn world where everyone tells the truth all the time and nobody ever claims to have nothing else to offer when they really do but the rest of us live in the real world.
Evidence? The EU has always been clear they will never agree to any Deal which does not have an open border in Ireland
Evidence is that in real life people compromise, that's the whole point of negotiations. We don't live in this fictional world where just because someone makes something clear that is reality.
The EU and Ireland don't want no deal. They want this backstop because they think they can get away with it. If they can't, that changes everything.
The EU are not that bothered about No Deal, it will hit them a bit but it will hit us far more as we are only 16% of their exports but they are 44% of ours and of course the EU have no desire to give up us a great exit Deal significantly better than this one as it would encourage other EU nations to consider leaving
Oh and which other EU nation that might be considering leaving would be put off by the backstop? That is unique to the UK. If the Swedes were considering Swexit would they be put off doing so because of the Irish backstop?
I'm sure Mandelson would do an incredible job of winning Labour seats...
All we need now is a time machine to go back over 20 years to when he did so.
Failing that and whilst we are stuck in 2018 instead I think Labour are better off sticking with the first team to gain them seats (overall) for the first time in over 20 years.
No coincidence those backing his call are those that don't wish Labour well.
High stakes poker but the PM should say that there can be no backstop but we still want a deal without it. So therefore we will rather sign a deal without a backstop but if Ireland can't agree to that then we will begin earnest no deal preparations.
Starting with negotiations with Ireland as to where they would prefer the customs posts to be built on the Ireland/NI border if there's no deal.
Without the backstop there will be no deal but apart from the backstop Parliament agrees with most of the rest she has agreed with the EU
Without the backstop there can be a deal which is why the backstop was not a part of the original negotiations put forward by the EU.
I know you live in this candy canes and unicorn world where everyone tells the truth all the time and nobody ever claims to have nothing else to offer when they really do but the rest of us live in the real world.
Evidence? The EU has always been clear they will never agree to any Deal which does not have an open border in Ireland
Evidence is that in real life people compromise, that's the whole point of negotiations. We don't live in this fictional world where just because someone makes something clear that is reality.
The EU and Ireland don't want no deal. They want this backstop because they think they can get away with it. If they can't, that changes everything.
The EU are not that bothered about No Deal, it will hit them a bit but it will hit us far more as we are only 16% of their exports but they are 44% of ours and of course the EU have no desire to give up us a great exit Deal significantly better than this one as it would encourage other EU nations to consider leaving
Oh and which other EU nation that might be considering leaving would be put off by the backstop? That is unique to the UK. If the Swedes were considering Swexit would they be put off doing so because of the Irish backstop?
Noone else is considering leaving. Support for EU membership is up in every one of the EU27 since Brexit and has stayed up. In several countries it's at record highs and in many countries 25 year highs.
High stakes poker but the PM should say that there can be no backstop but we still want a deal without it. So therefore we will rather sign a deal without a backstop but if Ireland can't agree to that then we will begin earnest no deal preparations.
Starting with negotiations with Ireland as to where they would prefer the customs posts to be built on the Ireland/NI border if there's no deal.
#1 By definition you can't start No Deal preparations " in earnest "" with 3 months to go. That ship has sailed. #2 The mechanism for an Irish Birder poll is already set out in domestic and international law as. Good luck fighting it if you are imposing customs posts.
Without the backstop there will be no deal but apart from the backstop Parliament agrees with most of the rest she has agreed with the EU
Without the backstop there can be a deal which is why the backstop was not a part of the original negotiations put forward by the EU.
I know you live in this candy canes and unicorn world where everyone tells the truth all the time and nobody ever claims to have nothing else to offer when they really do but the rest of us live in the real world.
Evidence? The EU has always been clear they will never agree to any Deal which does not have an open border in Ireland
Evidence is that in real life people compromise, that's the whole point of negotiations. We don't live in this fictional world where just because someone makes something clear that is reality.
The EU and Ireland don't want no deal. They want this backstop because they think they can get away with it. If they can't, that changes everything.
The EU are not that bothered about No Deal, it will hit them a bit but it will hit us far more as we are only 16% of their exports but they are 44% of ours and of course the EU have no desire to give up us a great exit Deal significantly better than this one as it would encourage other EU nations to consider leaving
If there's No Deal every scrap of economic activity in Britain that's best done in the SM/CU will either leave or need to be bought off with huge subsidy or tax cuts. It's as simple as that. The economic dislocation would be bigger than the 80's deindustrialisation. As well as a kind of reverse " Tell Sid " as the government sprayed grants and contingent liabilities across the private sector.
If there's No Deal every scrap of economic activity in Britain that's best done in the SM/CU will either leave or need to be bought off with huge subsidy or tax cuts. It's as simple as that. The economic dislocation would be bigger than the 80's deindustrialisation. As well as a kind of reverse " Tell Sid " as the government sprayed grants and contingent liabilities across the private sector.
Corbyn: Tell me, fortune teller, what will I be? Fortune teller: I see great things for you, you will become leader of the Labour Party Corbyn: And what will I achieve as leader, wise sage? Fortune teller: A command economy and a united Ireland Corbyn: So I will be Prime Minister? Fortune teller: No, the Tories will do that
If there's No Deal every scrap of economic activity in Britain that's best done in the SM/CU will either leave or need to be bought off with huge subsidy or tax cuts. It's as simple as that. The economic dislocation would be bigger than the 80's deindustrialisation. As well as a kind of reverse " Tell Sid " as the government sprayed grants and contingent liabilities across the private sector.
Corbyn: Tell me, fortune teller, what will I be? Fortune teller: I see great things for you, you will become leader of the Labour Party Corbyn: And what will I achieve as leader, wise sage? Fortune teller: A command economy and a united Ireland Corbyn: So I will be Prime Minister? Fortune teller: No, the Tories will do that
The insouciance shown by some Conservatives towards the possible loss from the union of both Northern Ireland and Scotland makes one wonder if the Russian trolls have somehow got themselves elected.
If there's No Deal every scrap of economic activity in Britain that's best done in the SM/CU will either leave or need to be bought off with huge subsidy or tax cuts. It's as simple as that. The economic dislocation would be bigger than the 80's deindustrialisation. As well as a kind of reverse " Tell Sid " as the government sprayed grants and contingent liabilities across the private sector.
Corbyn: Tell me, fortune teller, what will I be? Fortune teller: I see great things for you, you will become leader of the Labour Party Corbyn: And what will I achieve as leader, wise sage? Fortune teller: A command economy and a united Ireland Corbyn: So I will be Prime Minister? Fortune teller: No, the Tories will do that
The insouciance shown by some Conservatives towards the possible loss from the union of both Northern Ireland and Scotland makes one wonder if the Russian trolls have somehow got themselves elected.
I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually find that Russian agents have been feeding the Brexit virus for years, just as it eventually came to light that CND was substantially backed by the KGB.
High stakes poker but the PM should say that there can be no backstop but we still want a deal without it. So therefore we will rather sign a deal without a backstop but if Ireland can't agree to that then we will begin earnest no deal preparations.
Starting with negotiations with Ireland as to where they would prefer the customs posts to be built on the Ireland/NI border if there's no deal.
Well I chose the wrong day to be out yesterday, today was supposed to be the day of drama.
I think Graham Brady’s postman is going to have a busy day today: if the PM was determined to get renegotiating then she’d have let the vote go through today with a loss of 200, and said to the EU it was impossible to pass what they wish.
That the vote got pulled suggests that Mrs May is just kicking the can to save her own skin, and there’s not going to be any serious attempt at renegotiating anything except the messaging.
Up until now I’ve generally been supportive of the PM, but I can’t see now how she survives the week. Time to replace her with someone who will will negotiate hard and seriously step up the no-deal planning.
If there's No Deal every scrap of economic activity in Britain that's best done in the SM/CU will either leave or need to be bought off with huge subsidy or tax cuts. It's as simple as that. The economic dislocation would be bigger than the 80's deindustrialisation. As well as a kind of reverse " Tell Sid " as the government sprayed grants and contingent liabilities across the private sector.
Corbyn: Tell me, fortune teller, what will I be? Fortune teller: I see great things for you, you will become leader of the Labour Party Corbyn: And what will I achieve as leader, wise sage? Fortune teller: A command economy and a united Ireland Corbyn: So I will be Prime Minister? Fortune teller: No, the Tories will do that
The insouciance shown by some Conservatives towards the possible loss from the union of both Northern Ireland and Scotland makes one wonder if the Russian trolls have somehow got themselves elected.
I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually find that Russian agents have been feeding the Brexit virus for years, just as it eventually came to light that CND was substantially backed by the KGB.
Well it's well documented that they were funding and supporting anti-EU movements and parties across Europe in the years before the referendum and there's strong evidence of promoting misinformation in Germany. I'd say it's unlikely it'll be seen as a major factor though - more that unlike in the rest of the EU a section of our mainstream Conservatives and the media have been fairly rabidly anti-European, and so short of boosting a few fringe elements and stirring the pot it was all uneccessary.
Well I chose the wrong day to be out yesterday, today was supposed to be the day of drama.
I think Graham Brady’s postman is going to have a busy day today: if the PM was determined to get renegotiating then she’d have let the vote go through today with a loss of 200, and said to the EU it was impossible to pass what they wish.
That the vote got pulled suggests that Mrs May is just kicking the can to save her own skin, and there’s not going to be any serious attempt at renegotiating anything except the messaging.
Up until now I’ve generally been supportive of the PM, but I can’t see now how she survives the week. Time to replace her with someone who will will negotiate hard and seriously step up the no-deal planning.
How do you propose that someone commands the confidence of a Parliament that has roughly 500 MPs that won’t countenance no deal?
Well I chose the wrong day to be out yesterday, today was supposed to be the day of drama.
I think Graham Brady’s postman is going to have a busy day today: if the PM was determined to get renegotiating then she’d have let the vote go through today with a loss of 200, and said to the EU it was impossible to pass what they wish.
That the vote got pulled suggests that Mrs May is just kicking the can to save her own skin, and there’s not going to be any serious attempt at renegotiating anything except the messaging.
Up until now I’ve generally been supportive of the PM, but I can’t see now how she survives the week. Time to replace her with someone who will will negotiate hard and seriously step up the no-deal planning.
How do you propose that someone commands the confidence of a Parliament that has roughly 500 MPs that won’t countenance no deal?
It’s quite possible that we now enter a period of utter stalemate with a ticking clock. Someone is going to have to do something to break the logjam, remembering that No Deal is the default result and the Executive control the Parliamentary timetable.
Even if the “meaningful” vote were to have passed, there’s still a lot of legislation resulting which needs to pass to avoid no-deal, and as much as some remainers like to think that a single vote in Parliament will be sufficient to revoke A50, its likely to require primary legislation which can only be proposed by the government.
I think the Conservatives are more likely to go with a replacement PM for a harder renegotiation than a softer one (say a Gove or Davis rather than a Hammond or Rudd), but I think the PCP as a whole will support whoever is there, rather than vote against the government in a vote of confidence and force an election where Corbyn might get in.
The FTPA is a massive complication in all this, and will prolong the stalemate so long as no Conservatives actually cross the floor. If I were Uncle Vince I’d be having a good long chat with Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen, to really throw the cat among the pigeons.
Oh, and I just noticed that the pound dropped two cents on the dollar yesterday, so today’s a good day to buy the Christmas holiday pounds. Not all is bad in the world!
the fact that Gove was saying "100% the vote will happen" not long before May's U turn implies a real lack of communication and trust, I wouldnt want M Gove unhappy with me if I was PM, perhaps a Cabinet coup is on the cards....trouble is we are back to the million dollar question - who replaces May? I still think it will be a relative unknown (and God I hope it is not Rory Stewart)
High stakes poker but the PM should say that there can be no backstop but we still want a deal without it. So therefore we will rather sign a deal without a backstop but if Ireland can't agree to that then we will begin earnest no deal preparations.
Starting with negotiations with Ireland as to where they would prefer the customs posts to be built on the Ireland/NI border if there's no deal.
In a no deal situation, there should be another referendum (in the 6 counties, on Irish re-unification), which the polls indicate would lead to the result that SF have been yearning for. Customs posts can then be built in appropriate places, i.e. Fishguard, Pembroke Dock, Holyhead, Birkenhead, Liverpool and Cairnryan, although I would prefer the last one to be replaced by customs posts at Gretna, Carter Bar and Berwick.
Tommy Robinson and his ilk would threaten violence in a nunnery.
They are not representative of anyone but themselves
Er, it was you who said Brexit supporters hadn’t threatened violence, not me.
It took me literally a second to find a Brexit march where some knuckle-dragger was walking around with a homemade gallows, threatening to execute the PM.
If there's No Deal every scrap of economic activity in Britain that's best done in the SM/CU will either leave or need to be bought off with huge subsidy or tax cuts. It's as simple as that. The economic dislocation would be bigger than the 80's deindustrialisation. As well as a kind of reverse " Tell Sid " as the government sprayed grants and contingent liabilities across the private sector.
Corbyn: Tell me, fortune teller, what will I be? Fortune teller: I see great things for you, you will become leader of the Labour Party Corbyn: And what will I achieve as leader, wise sage? Fortune teller: A command economy and a united Ireland Corbyn: So I will be Prime Minister? Fortune teller: No, the Tories will do that
The insouciance shown by some Conservatives towards the possible loss from the union of both Northern Ireland and Scotland makes one wonder if the Russian trolls have somehow got themselves elected.
The problem with espousing Unionism is that the it is, increasingly, an unrequited love for English and Welsh MPs, and has been for decades. Scotland and Northern Ireland both contain huge blocs of restive voters who want out. These groups may attain majority status in both those countries in the next few years, regardless of whether Brexit passes or not.
Then look at the situation the MPs people face at home. Firstly, most of them represent constituencies where the majority will have voted Leave. They are answerable to their constituents, not those in the malcontent portions of the country. Secondly, keeping Scotland and Northern Ireland in the style to which they are accustomed entails substantial fiscal transfers, paid for out of their constituents taxes to a population that largely rejects said constituents as fellow countrymen and women (something of which a meaningful number of their voters will be aware and not particularly like.) Thirdly, the dissolution of the Union would mean bye bye Barnett, and almost certainly hello to more redistribution to Wales and Northern England. Fourthly, Tories with a more relaxed attitude to their Unionism will be well aware that Scotland dropping off will remove the SNP contingent from the Commons and so tip the political centre of balance of the rest of the country to the Right.
As I've pointed out before, the way we regard the Union - as something voluntary and dissoluble, as opposed to the American model which is permanent - means that it is also, by nature, temporary. Some dispute or event that leads to its termination is only a matter of time away. Given this fact, many are bound to wonder whether the time is now.
If there's No Deal every scrap of economic activity in Britain that's best done in the SM/CU will either leave or need to be bought off with huge subsidy or tax cuts. It's as simple as that. The economic dislocation would be bigger than the 80's deindustrialisation. As well as a kind of reverse " Tell Sid " as the government sprayed grants and contingent liabilities across the private sector.
Corbyn: Tell me, fortune teller, what will I be? Fortune teller: I see great things for you, you will become leader of the Labour Party Corbyn: And what will I achieve as leader, wise sage? Fortune teller: A command economy and a united Ireland Corbyn: So I will be Prime Minister? Fortune teller: No, the Tories will do that
The insouciance shown by some Conservatives towards the possible loss from the union of both Northern Ireland and Scotland makes one wonder if the Russian trolls have somehow got themselves elected.
The problem with espousing Unionism is that the it is, increasingly, an unrequited love for English and Welsh MPs, and has been for decades. Scotland and Northern Ireland both contain huge blocs of restive voters who want out. These groups may attain majority status in both those countries in the next few years, regardless of whether Brexit passes or not.
Then look at the situation the MPs people face at home. Firstly, most of them represent constituencies where the majority will have voted Leave. They are answerable to their constituents, not those in the malcontent portions of the country. Secondly, keeping Scotland and Northern Ireland in the style to which they are accustomed entails substantial fiscal transfers, paid for out of their constituents taxes to a population that largely rejects said constituents as fellow countrymen and women (something of which a meaningful number of their voters will be aware and not particularly like.) Thirdly, the dissolution of the Union would mean bye bye Barnett, and almost certainly hello to more redistribution to Wales and Northern England. Fourthly, Tories with a more relaxed attitude to their Unionism will be well aware that Scotland dropping off will remove the SNP contingent from the Commons and so tip the political centre of balance of the rest of the country to the Right.
As I've pointed out before, the way we regard the Union - as something voluntary and dissoluble, as opposed to the American model which is permanent - means that it is also, by nature, temporary. Some dispute or event that leads to its termination is only a matter of time away. Given this fact, many are bound to wonder whether the time is now.
No point in treating the voters as a homogenous mass. No one voter could be sure how all the other voters would vote so there was no way any of us could avoid or intentionally cause the 2017 GE outcome.
The only people who can really take the blame are May and her team for calling and then royally screwing up the election.
"No one on this earth could govern properly with this parliament even in normal circumstances..." Well they should hold another election then.
I don't accept that. Voters didn't take the election seriously, in the sense that they didn't take account of the need for her mandate, and instead got distracted by trivia. Up to them, of course, but it's a bit rich blaming her for not being able to govern and force her deal through when the reason she can't govern is their votes (or lack thereof).
As for another election, how would that help? A Corbyn minority government handling this mess?
By "trivia", do you mean "the rest of the manifesto"? Because: - What was in the manifesto was her responsibility - General Elections are about far more than a single item (otherwise there would only be a single item in the manifesto) - She'd have claimed a mandate in everything in her manifesto if she'd won a majority, so it's hard to claim that was trivia.
The voters balked at being asked to swallow everything she was ladling out; that's not on them but on what they were asked to swallow.
Comments
More likely she achieves nothing and is remembered as someone who got dealt a hospital pass, then made things worse, tried to see things through but was inadequate to the task.
I suspect that had this deal been brought forward by a leader who was more inclined to involve others in her decision-making rather than treat it as something to be done behind closed doors by her alone and then presented as a fait accompli there might not have been quite so much opposition to it. Sure there are concerns about the backstop etc but some of the opposition seems very focused on her and her style of decision-making as much as on the contents of the deal. Her inability to forge a consensus amongst her own Cabinet let alone her own party has been a very serious flaw. Giving her even more power to ignore others was not the answer.
May treated the Brexit negotiations much like she treated the negotiations to get Abu Qatada deported. As an essentially administrative task implementing an instruction, which is how she presented it to the House even in today's speech. She is good at that. But Brexit is something very different from that and her skills have not been up to it since, whatever her achievements in getting a deal with the EU, she has failed to bring her own party with her. Perhaps such a task is impossible. It seems to me that the Tories have, whatever the formalities, fractured. But the voters are not responsible for curing the Tory party's ills.
It’s about time these nutjobs were called out for what they are! They want a no deal and should be treated as acting against the national interest .
There seems to be real animosity between the ERG and the more moderate Tories and this could cause a complete fracture in the party .
Mays desperate delay to the vote is just another can kicking exercise , the EU will not open up the WA and realize the tide is turning . They will look to be constructive and give May some window dressing but not enough to avert the vote going down but also see the prize they’ve always wanted .
What better advert to other EU countries that being in is better than Leaving than the last two years of chaos in the UK and the inevitable momentum to a second vote where they hope the UK remains .
It’s of course risky but the EU I think are willing to take that chance .
The BBC coverage actually seemed reasonably helpful to May (considering the situation), the ITV coverage utterly disastrous. I wish Peston would calm down a bit, though
I think the result of that vote will clear up any remaining contention over these matters
I jest of course, but I think mandate thresholds are generally a poor idea, and particularly bad when applied to questions that (among other dimensions) encompass issues of identity or national destiny. I do think it would be harsh even from a pro-Remain perspective to judge Cameron poorly for failing to include such a threshold. In fact I'm not sure the counterfactual where he had done would leave us in a prettier spot today - it's likely that it would have inflated the Leave vote (both the underdog effect and the fact Brexit would have seemed even more vanishingly unlikely would have encouraged even more anti-government / anti-Tory / sod-the-lot-of-them protest voting) and we could still have been bequeathed a fractious and angry politics. Just one where the "dispossessed", the ones fed up with the Establishment and the current way the country is run, could have scored perhaps 55%+ of the vote and still be denied. Aside from whatever damage that would deal to people's faith in democracy (likely somewhat lifted by the still-inevitable Cameron resignation, so there would be some tangible fruit from the defeat), there'd have been a real risk of a populist tide even uglier than what was on display in the referendum campaign.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7948316/thersea-may-brexit-mess-vote/
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/05/clear-cut-brexit-legal-advice-reinforces-backstop-concerns
She was adamant she would "never" agree to that previously. But its there in the backstop in black and white, GB will be a 'third country' to a part of our country with a border in the Irish Sea.
https://www.thesun.ie/news/3151819/theresa-may-border-irish-sea-northern-ireland/
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/19/theresa-may-hits-back-at-barnier-criticism-of-chequers-proposals-brexit
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7291391/theresa-may-ulstermatum-brexit-deal/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-updates-theresa-may-northern-ireland-border-eu-irish-republic-customs-union-a8232631.html
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/theresa-may-i-will-never-accept-eus-ideas-on-irish-brexit-border/ar-BBKPZoe
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-19/may-can-t-agree-a-post-brexit-border-in-irish-sea-official-says
Goodnight
I know you live in this candy canes and unicorn world where everyone tells the truth all the time and nobody ever claims to have nothing else to offer when they really do but the rest of us live in the real world.
If she goes, a new leader goes to Europe looking for changes and then comes back then either.
A: New leader gets something, situation improved, more likely to pass deal.
B: New leader gets nothing, MPs more likely to believe nothing more can be got, more likely to pass deal.
The problem is nobody trusts May. And why should they? She is half the problem.
B The ERG and DUP and most Labour MPs will still vote against it regardless
So a new leader makes no difference, only EUref2 can probably enable the Deal to pass if voted for by the voters as the preferred Leave option over Remain and there is nearly a Commons majority now for that as there is not for the Deal or No Deal
https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/993116714941501441
The EU and Ireland don't want no deal. They want this backstop because they think they can get away with it. If they can't, that changes everything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF3jTYjXEe8
85% of Irish freight exports go to the UK or across the UK borders. Which is why they are trying to trap us within the single market and customs union.
Night all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj-eatTGFsg
All we need now is a time machine to go back over 20 years to when he did so.
Failing that and whilst we are stuck in 2018 instead I think Labour are better off sticking with the first team to gain them seats (overall) for the first time in over 20 years.
No coincidence those backing his call are those that don't wish Labour well.
Starting with negotiations with Ireland as to where they would prefer the customs posts to be built on the Ireland/NI border if there's no deal.
Fortune teller: I see great things for you, you will become leader of the Labour Party
Corbyn: And what will I achieve as leader, wise sage?
Fortune teller: A command economy and a united Ireland
Corbyn: So I will be Prime Minister?
Fortune teller: No, the Tories will do that
They are not representative of anyone but themselves
I think Graham Brady’s postman is going to have a busy day today: if the PM was determined to get renegotiating then she’d have let the vote go through today with a loss of 200, and said to the EU it was impossible to pass what they wish.
That the vote got pulled suggests that Mrs May is just kicking the can to save her own skin, and there’s not going to be any serious attempt at renegotiating anything except the messaging.
Up until now I’ve generally been supportive of the PM, but I can’t see now how she survives the week. Time to replace her with someone who will will negotiate hard and seriously step up the no-deal planning.
Even if the “meaningful” vote were to have passed, there’s still a lot of legislation resulting which needs to pass to avoid no-deal, and as much as some remainers like to think that a single vote in Parliament will be sufficient to revoke A50, its likely to require primary legislation which can only be proposed by the government.
I think the Conservatives are more likely to go with a replacement PM for a harder renegotiation than a softer one (say a Gove or Davis rather than a Hammond or Rudd), but I think the PCP as a whole will support whoever is there, rather than vote against the government in a vote of confidence and force an election where Corbyn might get in.
The FTPA is a massive complication in all this, and will prolong the stalemate so long as no Conservatives actually cross the floor. If I were Uncle Vince I’d be having a good long chat with Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen, to really throw the cat among the pigeons.
Oh, and I just noticed that the pound dropped two cents on the dollar yesterday, so today’s a good day to buy the Christmas holiday pounds. Not all is bad in the world!
It took me literally a second to find a Brexit march where some knuckle-dragger was walking around with a homemade gallows, threatening to execute the PM.
Over to you.
Then look at the situation the MPs people face at home. Firstly, most of them represent constituencies where the majority will have voted Leave. They are answerable to their constituents, not those in the malcontent portions of the country. Secondly, keeping Scotland and Northern Ireland in the style to which they are accustomed entails substantial fiscal transfers, paid for out of their constituents taxes to a population that largely rejects said constituents as fellow countrymen and women (something of which a meaningful number of their voters will be aware and not particularly like.) Thirdly, the dissolution of the Union would mean bye bye Barnett, and almost certainly hello to more redistribution to Wales and Northern England. Fourthly, Tories with a more relaxed attitude to their Unionism will be well aware that Scotland dropping off will remove the SNP contingent from the Commons and so tip the political centre of balance of the rest of the country to the Right.
As I've pointed out before, the way we regard the Union - as something voluntary and dissoluble, as opposed to the American model which is permanent - means that it is also, by nature, temporary. Some dispute or event that leads to its termination is only a matter of time away. Given this fact, many are bound to wonder whether the time is now.
Because:
- What was in the manifesto was her responsibility
- General Elections are about far more than a single item (otherwise there would only be a single item in the manifesto)
- She'd have claimed a mandate in everything in her manifesto if she'd won a majority, so it's hard to claim that was trivia.
The voters balked at being asked to swallow everything she was ladling out; that's not on them but on what they were asked to swallow.