We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
Or maybe the Brexiteers failed to make their case
I think we are already an International laughing stock and voting in a second referendum to remain and / or revoking A50 would be a good way to start recovering from our collective 'Ratner' moment
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
Not exactly. It's made the saner MPs on the political spectrum all the way from Emily Thornberry to Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke look credible. Particularly Clarke, for voting against A50. Apparently 90 MPs did so. I assume it was mainly the SNP, PC and L.Dems.
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
On topic. IANAL, therefore can anyone enlighten me. It seems everybody is taking for granted what the result of this case will be. What are the chances of the Court finding differently, or is the decision pretty much nailed on now?
It is, apparently, because the Court usually follows the Advocate General's opinion.
In 80% of cases.
I can see this being one of the 20%.
Given most people say the court is more political than many others why would you think that? The EU is laying open the door for remain and our mps are working hard, aided by the ERG, to make it happen. Would the court throw a spanner into the works?
I think unilateral revocation leads to potential mischief.
Whilst I think we’ve acted in good faith you can see how countries like Italy, Greece, or Hungary manipulate A50.
Whilst our divorce has been messy just imagine what it would have been like if we were members of the Euro.
Didn’t the AG’s opinion include some sort of good faith test ?
Yes. Future invocations can be denied by the ECJ if the invocation is held to be abusive. Basically every member state gets one free A50 mulligan.
I think it's the second revocation that can be denied, not the second invocation.
Nope the AG was clear. It was the second invocation.
Indeed. In my view it should be the first revocation, but there we go.
This all feels a little desperate. Parliament asks the voters to decide. They decide to leave.
Parliament dislikes it but has to go through the motions (I'm generalising now, some MPs disliked it so much they tell just the voters to stick it up their arses. How dare the great unwashed dictate to superior beings. Liberal "'democrats' among them).
It is absolutely the case that many MPs across the house don't like the idea of Brexit one little bit. The issue being that there are so many substantive problems in "just leave" that do not have solutions that there are now more MPs against Brexit than before. Increasingly we are seeing MPs saying "I respect the referendum" before detailing why the May deal isn't possible, why crash Brexit would be lunacy etc which leaves remain as the last option.
I am more than happy to listen to advocates of "just leave" and "respect the vote" to solve the intractable issues around the physical operation of no deal borders that so far the politicians negotiators and experts who know what they are talking about have so far failed to manage.
But this is simply untrue. There is a solution that does respect the border issue and which both sides of the negotiation are agreed to. It may not be perfect but to claim that no solution exists and use that as an excuse to cancel Brexit is just dishonest.
And anyone advocating Remain now certainly cannot be said to be respecting the referendum.
Do you mean the solution of disenfranchisement for NI? Where NI voters will lose their votes that set the laws and regulations that affect them? Which the voters of NI havent approved but the MPs of NI bitterly oppose?
The contempt for NI is palpable. The DUP should sit down and shut up and forget the fact they will no longer ever get a say in their own laws unless their betters reach a deal to let them get involved again. It's a disgrace and if the backstop applied to England not Northern Ireland it would never have seen the light of day.
Philip - I think we probably come at Brexit from opposite ends of the debate, but on this point I think you are 100% spot on. The integrity of the United Kingdom from a constitutional basis is not a bargaining chip to be used. The only way that could or should be the case is a border poll for the citizens of Northern Ireland.
100% agreed. If the citizens of Northern Ireland want to change country let them vote for it. Otherwise as long as they are citizens of this country the laws should be set by this country.
This all feels a little desperate. Parliament asks the voters to decide. They decide to leave.
Parliament dislikes it but has to go through the motions (I'm generalising now, some MPs disliked it so much they tell just the voters to stick it up their arses. How dare the great unwashed dictate to superior beings. Liberal "'democrats' among them).
I am more than happy to listen to advocates of "just leave" and "respect the vote" to solve the intractable issues around the physical operation of no deal borders that so far the politicians negotiators and experts who know what they are talking about have so far failed to manage.
But this is simply untrue. There is a solution that does respect the border issue and which both sides of the negotiation are agreed to. It may not be perfect but to claim that no solution exists and use that as an excuse to cancel Brexit is just dishonest.
And anyone advocating Remain now certainly cannot be said to be respecting the referendum.
Do you mean the solution of disenfranchisement for NI? Where NI voters will lose their votes that set the laws and regulations that affect them? Which the voters of NI havent approved but the MPs of NI bitterly oppose?
The contempt for NI is palpable. The DUP should sit down and shut up and forget the fact they will no longer ever get a say in their own laws unless their betters reach a deal to let them get involved again. It's a disgrace and if the backstop applied to England not Northern Ireland it would never have seen the light of day.
Philip - I think we probably come at Brexit from opposite ends of the debate, but on this point I think you are 100% spot on. The integrity of the United Kingdom from a constitutional basis is not a bargaining chip to be used. The only way that could or should be the case is a border poll for the citizens of Northern Ireland.
100% agreed. If the citizens of Northern Ireland want to change country let them vote for it. Otherwise as long as they are citizens of this country the laws should be set by this country.
We definitely ned that vote on reunification.
Yes if Ireland were to rejoin the UK then that would solve a lot of these issues.
On topic. IANAL, therefore can anyone enlighten me. It seems everybody is taking for granted what the result of this case will be. What are the chances of the Court finding differently, or is the decision pretty much nailed on now?
It is, apparently, because the Court usually follows the Advocate General's opinion.
In 80% of cases.
I can see this being one of the 20%.
Given most people say the court is more political than many others why would you think that? The EU is laying open the door for remain and our mps are working hard, aided by the ERG, to make it happen. Would the court throw a spanner into the works?
I think unilateral revocation leads to potential mischief.
Whilst I think we’ve acted in good faith you can see how countries like Italy, Greece, or Hungary manipulate A50.
Whilst our divorce has been messy just imagine what it would have been like if we were members of the Euro.
Didn’t the AG’s opinion include some sort of good faith test ?
Yes. Future invocations can be denied by the ECJ if the invocation is held to be abusive. Basically every member state gets one free A50 mulligan.
I think it's the second revocation that can be denied, not the second invocation.
Nope the AG was clear. It was the second invocation.
Second invocation or second revocation? Those are very different.
This all feels a little desperate. Parliament asks the voters to decide. They decide to leave.
Parliament dislikes it but has to go through the motions (I'm generalising now, some MPs disliked it so much they tell just the voters to stick it up their arses. How dare the great unwashed dictate to superior beings. Liberal "'democrats' among them).
It is absolutely the case that many MPs across the house don't like the idea of Brexit one little bit. The issue being that there are so many substantive problems in "just leave" that do not have solutions that there are now more MPs against Brexit than before. Increasingly we are seeing MPs saying "I respect the referendum" before detailing why the May deal isn't possible, why crash Brexit would be lunacy etc which leaves remain as the last option.
I am more than happy to listen to advocates of "just leave" and "respect the vote" to solve the intractable issues around the physical operation of no deal borders that so far the politicians negotiators and experts who know what they are talking about have so far failed to manage.
But this is simply untrue. There is a solution that does respect the border issue and which both sides of the negotiation are agreed to. It may not be perfect but to claim that no solution exists and use that as an excuse to cancel Brexit is just dishonest.
And anyone advocating Remain now certainly cannot be said to be respecting the referendum.
Do you mean the solution of disenfranchisement for NI? Where NI voters will lose their votes that set the laws and regulations that affect them? Which the voters of NI havent approved but the MPs of NI bitterly oppose?
The contempt for NI is palpable. The DUP should sit down and shut up and forget the fact they will no longer ever get a say in their own laws unless their betters reach a deal to let them get involved again. It's a disgrace and if the backstop applied to England not Northern Ireland it would never have seen the light of day.
And yet over 60% of NI voters apparently back May's deal according to recent polling.
This may come as a shock but I believe in setting laws and fundamental rights via democracy not opinion polls...
Which is precisely why I back a second referendum.
Let's say no deal wins a second referendum. Then what?
No deal won’t get on the ballot . The EC won’t sanction that question as it’s too vague .
No it isn't and of course statute can overrule the EC anyway
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
Or maybe the Brexiteers failed to make their case
I think we are already an International laughing stock and voting in a second referendum to remain and / or revoking A50 would be a good way to start recovering from our collective 'Ratner' moment
The Brexiteers made their case and we voted to end EU law and take back control to Westminster. This deal doesn't do that.
We should go back to the EU and say we are setting our own laws so the backstop is a non starter but we will take the rest of the deal if you want it. We voted on taking control not this deal and should get the best available deal which leaves us control of our own laws. If that is no deal so be it.
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
Not exactly. It's made the saner MPs on the political spectrum all the way from Emily Thornberry to Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke look credible. Particularly Clarke, for voting against A50. Apparently 90 MPs did so. I assume it was mainly the SNP, PC and L.Dems.
Overwhelming votes in the House aren’t always great decisions (cough, Iraq).
... and it’s not exactly an enormous distance on the political spectrum from Thornberry to Clarke.
I think it's the second revocation that can be denied, not the second invocation.
Future invocations would be subject to a "good faith" test. So the ECJ could reject a second invocation if it felt the invocation was intended to be abusive.
This is a judicial power grab of sorts- the ECJ has given itself a veto over the A50 process to prevent abuse. But I'm not sure it's an unreasonable power grab since it's the only thing the EU would have to stop member states playing silly buggers with it.
Also, I think it very unlikely that, if A50 were invoked, a future British government would want to embark on another Brexit shitshow for a very long time.
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
The Government won't revoke Article 50 though Parliament may try and force EUref2.
Corbyn has no clue what he wants on Brexit other thsn to exploit it for political ends, it was May who did the hard work to get a Deal
May got a deal by giving the EU all it wanted and getting nothing in return. Nothing very hard about that. All she is done is alienate all the Leavers, agree to betray Northern Ireland and provide an unwelcome stimulus to Scottish Nationalism.
I think Corbyn is pretty clueless too but then sotoo is May. Corbyn is simply more politically astute because he has focussed much more on domestic issues. He doesn’t have credible answers but has made May look totally inadequate.
Ahhhhh! I'm only stockpiling food for 2 month's of chaos...
Let them eat pheasant.
Loads of them round where I live. And muntjack deer too
Pheasant season ends on 1 February, so you better get stocking up...
The "pheasant season" ie the shooting season ending doesn't instantly obliterate the millions of unshot pheasants!!
Indeed I have often remarked about how you can hardly see a pheasant before February 1st and then suddenly the day after the season ends they are all over the place. I think they know...
A friend of mine who shoots ducks says it doesn't take them long to work out that they're safe if they fly below head height, so the shooters can't fire on them.
Er how does that work? If they fly above head height and get shot they're dead so how do the learn to fly lower next time.
I guess over generations natural selection will cause those with a genetic tendency for very low flying to survive and breed more than the high flyers but individual ducks learning? Seems unlikely to me.
It's the ones that survive by flying low that quickly work out that's the way to stay safe
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
Or maybe the Brexiteers failed to make their case
I think we are already an International laughing stock and voting in a second referendum to remain and / or revoking A50 would be a good way to start recovering from our collective 'Ratner' moment
I rather thought Leave did make its case which is why it won and Remain lost. Handing Brexit to Parliament dominated by Remain supporters and who showed gross incompetence by failing to prepare for no deal was the problem which is why the muppets in Westminster ante now in headless chicken mode.
Ahhhhh! I'm only stockpiling food for 2 month's of chaos...
Let them eat pheasant.
Loads of them round where I live. And muntjack deer too
Pheasant season ends on 1 February, so you better get stocking up...
The "pheasant season" ie the shooting season ending doesn't instantly obliterate the millions of unshot pheasants!!
Indeed I have often remarked about how you can hardly see a pheasant before February 1st and then suddenly the day after the season ends they are all over the place. I think they know...
A friend of mine who shoots ducks says it doesn't take them long to work out that they're safe if they fly below head height, so the shooters can't fire on them.
Er how does that work? If they fly above head height and get shot they're dead so how do the learn to fly lower next time.
I guess over generations natural selection will cause those with a genetic tendency for very low flying to survive and breed more than the high flyers but individual ducks learning? Seems unlikely to me.
It's the ones that survive by flying low that quickly work out that's the way to stay safe
If they were already flying low have they worked that out or are they coincidentally doing what they need to anyway?
OT Maurinho despite being in 8th place has promised Man Utd fans he wll get them into a major European competition next season. Even if he has to sing the song himself
We have been told by HoC officials that you can't put down binding amendments to a non binding vote. So were they wrong? Or are all these amendments simply wasting time?
It's up to Mr Speaker to decide whether the amendments are effective and in order. I strongly expect an ERG-er to make a Point of Order asking for Bercow's ruling on whether the Swire amendment is effective and in order, and if so how.
TBH, if he's allowing the Benn amendment, he should really allow the government amendment. They're both stupid, non-effective, wrecking amendments IMHO.
Ahhhhh! I'm only stockpiling food for 2 month's of chaos...
Let them eat pheasant.
Loads of them round where I live. And muntjack deer too
Pheasant season ends on 1 February, so you better get stocking up...
The "pheasant season" ie the shooting season ending doesn't instantly obliterate the millions of unshot pheasants!!
Indeed I have often remarked about how you can hardly see a pheasant before February 1st and then suddenly the day after the season ends they are all over the place. I think they know...
A friend of mine who shoots ducks says it doesn't take them long to work out that they're safe if they fly below head height, so the shooters can't fire on them.
Er how does that work? If they fly above head height and get shot they're dead so how do the learn to fly lower next time.
I guess over generations natural selection will cause those with a genetic tendency for very low flying to survive and breed more than the high flyers but individual ducks learning? Seems unlikely to me.
It's the ones that survive by flying low that quickly work out that's the way to stay safe
Seems unlikely.
More chance of the ERG working out that they are screwing their chances of any sort of Brexit tbh.
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
Or maybe the Brexiteers failed to make their case
I think we are already an International laughing stock and voting in a second referendum to remain and / or revoking A50 would be a good way to start recovering from our collective 'Ratner' moment
The Brexiteers made their case and we voted to end EU law and take back control to Westminster. This deal doesn't do that.
We should go back to the EU and say we are setting our own laws so the backstop is a non starter but we will take the rest of the deal if you want it. We voted on taking control not this deal and should get the best available deal which leaves us control of our own laws. If that is no deal so be it.
This is the best available deal short of remaining in the EU
On topic. IANAL, therefore can anyone enlighten me. It seems everybody is taking for granted what the result of this case will be. What are the chances of the Court finding differently, or is the decision pretty much nailed on now?
It is, apparently, because the Court usually follows the Advocate General's opinion.
In 80% of cases.
I can see this being one of the 20%.
Given most people say the court is more political than many others why would you think that? The EU is laying open the door for remain and our mps are working hard, aided by the ERG, to make it happen. Would the court throw a spanner into the works?
I think unilateral revocation leads to potential mischief.
Whilst I think we’ve acted in good faith you can see how countries like Italy, Greece, or Hungary manipulate A50.
Whilst our divorce has been messy just imagine what it would have been like if we were members of the Euro.
Didn’t the AG’s opinion include some sort of good faith test ?
Yes. Future invocations can be denied by the ECJ if the invocation is held to be abusive. Basically every member state gets one free A50 mulligan.
I think it's the second revocation that can be denied, not the second invocation.
Nope the AG was clear. It was the second invocation.
Second invocation or second revocation? Those are very different.
Invocation.
Article 15 of his advice
"Moreover, any abuse could occur only when a second notification of the intention to withdraw is submitted, but not by unilaterally revoking the first."
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
Not exactly. It's made the saner MPs on the political spectrum all the way from Emily Thornberry to Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke look credible. Particularly Clarke, for voting against A50. Apparently 90 MPs did so. I assume it was mainly the SNP, PC and L.Dems.
I agree with you about Grieve,not about the others. Grieve is the only MP who has given any thought to the issues and thought through how to achieve what he wants - even though what he wants is not what I want. Everyone else in parliament has been totally inept
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
I posted that earlier, though yo be fair about a third of A and A* grades at A Level go to private schools, many offer scholarships and bursaries and some potential Oxbridge candidates in state schools do not apply.
There are some state comprehensives and academies like Mossbourne which have a good Oxbridge record as do sixth form colleges but since the decline of the grammar schools inevitably the competition has reduced for the likes of Eton and Westminster
OT Maurinho despite being in 8th place has promised Man Utd fans he wll get them into a major European competition next season. Even if he has to sing the song himself
Very good. As a lefty, Remainer, United fan I needed something to cheer me up!
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
Or maybe the Brexiteers failed to make their case
I think we are already an International laughing stock and voting in a second referendum to remain and / or revoking A50 would be a good way to start recovering from our collective 'Ratner' moment
The Brexiteers made their case and we voted to end EU law and take back control to Westminster. This deal doesn't do that.
We should go back to the EU and say we are setting our own laws so the backstop is a non starter but we will take the rest of the deal if you want it. We voted on taking control not this deal and should get the best available deal which leaves us control of our own laws. If that is no deal so be it.
We voted to Leave, nothing more. May's Deal certainly has us leaving.
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
The Government won't revoke Article 50 though Parliament may try and force EUref2.
Corbyn has no clue what he wants on Brexit other thsn to exploit it for political ends, it was May who did the hard work to get a Deal
May got a deal by giving the EU all it wanted and getting nothing in return. Nothing very hard about that. All she is done is alienate all the Leavers, agree to betray Northern Ireland and provide an unwelcome stimulus to Scottish Nationalism.
I think Corbyn is pretty clueless too but then sotoo is May. Corbyn is simply more politically astute because he has focussed much more on domestic issues. He doesn’t have credible answers but has made May look totally inadequate.
The voters rate TM over Corbyn by 35 /24 and have done so for months
Incidentally the fact that the one thing stopping an acceptable Brexit at the moment is the unique situation of Northern Ireland shows the paucity of arguments for Europhiles. It isn't something innately good about the EU or bad about Brexit that is causing rancour.
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
Or maybe the Brexiteers failed to make their case
I think we are already an International laughing stock and voting in a second referendum to remain and / or revoking A50 would be a good way to start recovering from our collective 'Ratner' moment
The Brexiteers made their case and we voted to end EU law and take back control to Westminster. This deal doesn't do that.
We should go back to the EU and say we are setting our own laws so the backstop is a non starter but we will take the rest of the deal if you want it. We voted on taking control not this deal and should get the best available deal which leaves us control of our own laws. If that is no deal so be it.
This is the best available deal short of remaining in the EU
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
The Government won't revoke Article 50 though Parliament may try and force EUref2.
Corbyn has no clue what he wants on Brexit other thsn to exploit it for political ends, it was May who did the hard work to get a Deal
May got a deal by giving the EU all it wanted and getting nothing in return. Nothing very hard about that. All she is done is alienate all the Leavers, agree to betray Northern Ireland and provide an unwelcome stimulus to Scottish Nationalism.
I think Corbyn is pretty clueless too but then sotoo is May. Corbyn is simply more politically astute because he has focussed much more on domestic issues. He doesn’t have credible answers but has made May look totally inadequate.
Rubbish. May has got a Deal to protect the economy while still ending free movement, the biggest stimulus to Scottish nationalism and a United Ireland would be No Deal Brexit.
Most voters recognise that hence Deal trounced No Deal 62% to 38% with Yougov yesterday and tied Remain while No Deal narrowly trailed Remain. The Deal is the only unity option available now.
Corbyn is utterly clueless as would be clear within 5 minutes of him ever having to make a tough decision in government
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Imagine if one of the beneficial effects of the Brexit humiliation is that the Conservative and Unionist Party starts to become conservative and unionist again.
It hasn’t been since 2010 and shows no sign of becoming so.
The voters rate TM over Corbyn by 35 /24 and have done so for months
Yeah, but that's a bit like asking people which of these two shit sandwiches they'd rather eat. The shit sandwich they know, or the shit sandwich they don't.
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
Or maybe the Brexiteers failed to make their case
I think we are already an International laughing stock and voting in a second referendum to remain and / or revoking A50 would be a good way to start recovering from our collective 'Ratner' moment
The Brexiteers made their case and we voted to end EU law and take back control to Westminster. This deal doesn't do that.
We should go back to the EU and say we are setting our own laws so the backstop is a non starter but we will take the rest of the deal if you want it. We voted on taking control not this deal and should get the best available deal which leaves us control of our own laws. If that is no deal so be it.
We voted to Leave, nothing more. May's Deal certainly has us leaving.
Leave but stay in the customs union and subject to single market regulations. Some leave.
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
You're making a very compelling case for abolitioning the Department for Education & LEAs and privatising the school system.
Instead of spending so much money on schools and wages we give the parents of every child school vouchers and they can choose where they send their kids.
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
I posted that earlier, though yo be fair about a third of A and A* grades at A Level go to private schools, many offer scholarships and bursaries and some potential Oxbridge candidates in state schools do not apply.
There are some state comprehensives and academies like Mossbourne which have a good Oxbridge record as do sixth form colleges but since the decline of the grammar schools inevitably the competition has reduced for the likes of Eton and Westminster
Sorry to repeat your posting HYUFD, no time to trawl the thread so took a punt. Apols if it has all been discussed ad nauseam.
Your reasoning makes sense but the state of affairs is abominable.
But if it's been discussed at length no point in labouring the point, I guess.
We have been told by HoC officials that you can't put down binding amendments to a non binding vote. So were they wrong? Or are all these amendments simply wasting time?
It's up to Mr Speaker to decide whether the amendments are effective and in order. I strongly expect an ERG-er to make a Point of Order asking for Bercow's ruling on whether the Swire amendment is effective and in order, and if so how.
TBH, if he's allowing the Benn amendment, he should really allow the government amendment. They're both stupid, non-effective, wrecking amendments IMHO.
It wasn't so much as to whether amendments are effective but whether or not they can actually be enforced in a non binding motion.
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
The Government won't revoke Article 50 though Parliament may try and force EUref2.
Corbyn has no clue what he wants on Brexit other thsn to exploit it for political ends, it was May who did the hard work to get a Deal
May got a deal by giving the EU all it wanted and getting nothing in return. Nothing very hard about that. All she is done is alienate all the Leavers, agree to betray Northern Ireland and provide an unwelcome stimulus to Scottish Nationalism.
I think Corbyn is pretty clueless too but then sotoo is May. Corbyn is simply more politically astute because he has focussed much more on domestic issues. He doesn’t have credible answers but has made May look totally inadequate.
Rubbish. May has got a Deal to protect the economy while still ending free movement, the biggest stimulus to Scottish nationalism and a United Ireland would be No Deal Brexit.
Most voters recognise that hence Deal trounced No Deal 62% to 38% with Yougov yesterday and tied Remain while No Deal narrowly trailed Remain. The Deal is the only unity option available now.
Corbyn is utterly clueless as would be clear within 5 minutes of him ever having to make a tough decision in government
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
Or maybe the Brexiteers failed to make their case
I think we are already an International laughing stock and voting in a second referendum to remain and / or revoking A50 would be a good way to start recovering from our collective 'Ratner' moment
The Brexiteers made their case and we voted to end EU law and take back control to Westminster. This deal doesn't do that.
We should go back to the EU and say we are setting our own laws so the backstop is a non starter but we will take the rest of the deal if you want it. We voted on taking control not this deal and should get the best available deal which leaves us control of our own laws. If that is no deal so be it.
We voted to Leave, nothing more. May's Deal certainly has us leaving.
Leave but stay in the customs union and subject to single market regulations. Some leave.
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
I posted that earlier, though yo be fair about a third of A and A* grades at A Level go to private schools, many offer scholarships and bursaries and some potential Oxbridge candidates in state schools do not apply.
There are some state comprehensives and academies like Mossbourne which have a good Oxbridge record as do sixth form colleges but since the decline of the grammar schools inevitably the competition has reduced for the likes of Eton and Westminster
Sorry to repeat your posting HYUFD, no time to trawl the thread so took a punt. Apols if it has all been discussed ad nauseam.
Your reasoning makes sense but the state of affairs is abominable.
But if it's been discussed at length no point in labouring the point, I guess.
The only way to change it would be to make the entire university admissions process "blind", and that'd be a huge change for Oxbridge which has always relied on interviews to keep out "the wrong sort".
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
I posted that earlier, though yo be fair about a third of A and A* grades at A Level go to private schools, many offer scholarships and bursaries and some potential Oxbridge candidates in state schools do not apply.
There are some state comprehensives and academies like Mossbourne which have a good Oxbridge record as do sixth form colleges but since the decline of the grammar schools inevitably the competition has reduced for the likes of Eton and Westminster
Sorry to repeat your posting HYUFD, no time to trawl the thread so took a punt. Apols if it has all been discussed ad nauseam.
Your reasoning makes sense but the state of affairs is abominable.
But if it's been discussed at length no point in labouring the point, I guess.
To be fair it was not much discussed after my earlier post so could do with a repost
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
The Government won't revoke Article 50 though Parliament may try and force EUref2.
Corbyn has no clue what he wants on Brexit other thsn to exploit it for political ends, it was May who did the hard work to get a Deal
May got a deal by giving the EU all it wanted and getting nothing in return. Nothing very hard about that. All she is done is alienate all the Leavers, agree to betray Northern Ireland and provide an unwelcome stimulus to Scottish Nationalism.
I think Corbyn is pretty clueless too but then sotoo is May. Corbyn is simply more politically astute because he has focussed much more on domestic issues. He doesn’t have credible answers but has made May look totally inadequate.
Rubbish. May has got a Deal to protect the economy while still ending free movement, the biggest stimulus to Scottish nationalism and a United Ireland would be No Deal Brexit.
Most voters recognise that hence Deal trounced No Deal 62% to 38% with Yougov yesterday and tied Remain while No Deal narrowly trailed Remain. The Deal is the only unity option available now.
Corbyn is utterly clueless as would be clear within 5 minutes of him ever having to make a tough decision in government
That’s an absurd comment even by your standards. Trade has even been discussed let alone agreed. She has stood idly by whilst the EU has tried to entice financial services away, done nothing to make Britain a more attractive country in which to invest; she has signed us up to the common external tariff, put a customs border between NI and the rest of the U.K. and signed us up to EU trading regs with absolutely no say on them at all. If you think that is a good deal, you need help only the medical profession can provide.
This is the best available deal short of remaining in the EU
You've gone from Dealer to Norway+ to Remain within a week. I expect we'll see that happen a lot next week.
Almost but not quite. TM deal is my preferred choice but Norway seems so close to remain, we may as well remain and take the EU on from within
The irony is that at this time, Merkel has virtually gone and Macron is plummeting faster than the pheasants mentioned earlier. Maybe UK could have a lot of influence inside the EU
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
You're making a very compelling case for abolitioning the Department for Education & LEAs and privatising the school system.
Instead of spending so much money on schools and wages we give the parents of every child school vouchers and they can choose where they send their kids.
Equal opportunities not really high on your list is it TSE?
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
I posted that earlier, though yo be fair about a third of A and A* grades at A Level go to private schools, many offer scholarships and bursaries and some potential Oxbridge candidates in state schools do not apply.
There are some state comprehensives and academies like Mossbourne which have a good Oxbridge record as do sixth form colleges but since the decline of the grammar schools inevitably the competition has reduced for the likes of Eton and Westminster
Sorry to repeat your posting HYUFD, no time to trawl the thread so took a punt. Apols if it has all been discussed ad nauseam.
Your reasoning makes sense but the state of affairs is abominable.
But if it's been discussed at length no point in labouring the point, I guess.
The only way to change it would be to make the entire university admissions process "blind", and that'd be a huge change for Oxbridge which has always relied on interviews to keep out "the wrong sort".
The wrong sort is more simplistically
Privately educated kids = Lots of (intellectual) self confidence who do well in interviews.
Pleb kids = Kids who don't think they deserve to be here and that transmits itself in the interview.
Out of my many many many faults qualities, a lack of self confidence isn't one of them.
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
The Government won't revoke Article 50 though Parliament may try and force EUref2.
Corbyn has no clue what he wants on Brexit other thsn to exploit it for political ends, it was May who did the hard work to get a Deal
May got a deal by giving the EU all it wanted and getting nothing in return. Nothing very hard about that. All she is done is alienate all the Leavers, agree to betray Northern Ireland and provide an unwelcome stimulus to Scottish Nationalism.
I think Corbyn is pretty clueless too but then sotoo is May. Corbyn is simply more politically astute because he has focussed much more on domestic issues. He doesn’t have credible answers but has made May look totally inadequate.
The voters rate TM over Corbyn by 35 /24 and have done so for months
Big deal. May lost a 20% lead in the polls in the last election and Labour are pretty much level pegging with the Tories in the polls and have been despite their problems with anti semitism and misogyny.
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
Or maybe the Brexiteers failed to make their case
I think we are already an International laughing stock and voting in a second referendum to remain and / or revoking A50 would be a good way to start recovering from our collective 'Ratner' moment
The Brexiteers made their case and we voted to end EU law and take back control to Westminster. This deal doesn't do that.
We should go back to the EU and say we are setting our own laws so the backstop is a non starter but we will take the rest of the deal if you want it. We voted on taking control not this deal and should get the best available deal which leaves us control of our own laws. If that is no deal so be it.
We voted to Leave, nothing more. May's Deal certainly has us leaving.
Leave but stay in the customs union and subject to single market regulations. Some leave.
But crucially end free movement
Crucial to whom? To Mrs May, yes. To Parliament? To her backbenchers? Doesn't look like it. Parliament is moving towards various kinds of remain and BRINO deal that will keep the rights of UK citizens intact.
One of May's persistent and ongoing miscalculations has been that her Party hates immigrants as much as she does. We're now seeing the consequences of that miscalculation.
Thanks to Sajid, May doesn't even have an immigration policy now, because he torpedoed it below the waterline.
This is the best available deal short of remaining in the EU
You've gone from Dealer to Norway+ to Remain within a week. I expect we'll see that happen a lot next week.
Almost but not quite. TM deal is my preferered choice but Norway seems so close to remain, we may as well remain and take the EU on from within
The irony is that at this time, Merkel has virtually gone and Macron is plummeting faster than the pheasants mentioned earlier. Maybe UK could have a lot of influence inside the EU
Norway is not on offer from the EU
EFTA is looking unlikely as they are worrying that our Euroscepticism would be at odds with their Europhilia (they like the EU to a large extent)
So it is May's Deal, Remain or No Deal.
That is it. If Parliament will not countenance May's Deal or No Deal, then we only have one option left, but all these other deals people talk about are not going to happen.
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
You're making a very compelling case for abolitioning the Department for Education & LEAs and privatising the school system.
Instead of spending so much money on schools and wages we give the parents of every child school vouchers and they can choose where they send their kids.
Equal opportunities not really high on your list is it TSE?
It is, is why I'm an egalitarian, is why I'm favour of abolishing the monarchy.
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
The Government won't revoke Article 50 though Parliament may try and force EUref2.
Corbyn has no clue what he wants on Brexit other thsn to exploit it for political ends, it was May who did the hard work to get a Deal
May got a deal by giving the EU all it wanted and getting nothing in return. Nothing very hard about that. All she is done is alienate all the uate.
Rubbish. May has got a Deal to protect the economy while still ending free movement, the biggest stimulus to Scottish nationalism and a United Ireland would be No Deal Brexit.
Most voters recognise that hence Deal trounced No Deal 62% to 38% with Yougov yesterday and tied Remain while No Deal narrowly trailed Remain. The Deal is the only unity option available now.
Corbyn is utterly clueless as would be clear within 5 minutes of him ever having to make a tough decision in government
That’s an absurd comment even by your standards. Trade has even been discussed let alone agreed. She has stood idly by whilst the EU has tried to entice financial services away, done nothing to make Britain a more attractive country in which to invest; she has signed us up to the common external tariff, put a customs border between NI and the rest of the U.K. and signed us up to EU trading regs with absolutely no say on them at all. If you think that is a good deal, you need help only the medical profession can provide.
May has signed up to a Deal which protects the economy far more than No Deal, which forecasts show could lead to the worst recession since the 1930s, while also still leaving the EU and ending free movement and avoiding a disastrous hard border in Ireland.
The voters understand that hence Deal trounced No Deal 62% to 38% with Yougov. Both Remainers and No Deal voters put Deal as their second choice too and it is the only compromise now.
On the other hand Remain leads No Deal Brexit just 52% to 48% so if fanatics like you want a near civil war with that option be my guest!
Add to that: Run a positive campaign. As Yes did in 1975. European cooperation, internationalism, travel broadens the mind ... all the arguments for shared sovereignty
No was 'project fear'.
Total EU spending is only 1% of members states' budgets. For that, it does a huge amount on behalf of all 28 states. Not many people on either side seem to know that.
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
The Government won't revoke Article 50 though Parliament may try and force EUref2.
Corbyn has no clue what he wants on Brexit other thsn to exploit it for political ends, it was May who did the hard work to get a Deal
May got a deal by giving the EU all it wanted and getting nothing in return. Nothing very hard about that. All she is done is alienate all the Leavers, agree to betray Northern Ireland and provide an unwelcome stimulus to Scottish Nationalism.
I think Corbyn is pretty clueless too but then sotoo is May. Corbyn is simply more politically astute because he has focussed much more on domestic issues. He doesn’t have credible answers but has made May look totally inadequate.
The voters rate TM over Corbyn by 35 /24 and have done so for months
Big deal. May lost a 20% lead in the polls in the last election and Labour are pretty much level pegging with the Tories in the polls and have been despite their problems with anti semitism and misogyny.
Labour pretty much level pegging in this crisis says how utterly useless Corbyn is.
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
You're making a very compelling case for abolitioning the Department for Education & LEAs and privatising the school system.
Instead of spending so much money on schools and wages we give the parents of every child school vouchers and they can choose where they send their kids.
Equal opportunities not really high on your list is it TSE?
It is, is why I'm an egalitarian, is why I'm favour of abolishing the monarchy.
Harry and William doing their best to reduce old Etonians taking Oxbridge places, William went to St Andrews and Harry did not go to university but into the army. So abolish the monarchy and you make the problem of Etonian Oxbridge dominance even worse!
This all feels a little desperate. Parliament asks the voters to decide. They decide to leave.
Parliament dislikes it but has to go through the motions (I'm generalising now, some MPs disliked it so much they tell just the voters to stick it up their arses. How dare the great unwashed dictate to superior beings. Liberal "'democrats' among them).
The issue being that there are so many substantive problems in "just leave" that do not have solutions that there are now more MPs against Brexit than before. Increasingly we are seeing MPs saying "I respect the referendum" before detailing why the May deal isn't possible, why crash Brexit would be lunacy etc which leaves remain as the last option.
I am more than happy to listen to advocates of "just leave" and "respect the vote" to solve the intractable issues around the physical operation of no deal borders that so far the politicians negotiators and experts who know what they are talking about have so far failed to manage.
But this is simply untrue. There is a solution that does respect the border issue and which both sides of the negotiation are agreed to. It may not be perfect but to claim that no solution exists and use that as an excuse to cancel Brexit is just dishonest.
And anyone advocating Remain now certainly cannot be said to be respecting the referendum.
Do you mean the solution of disenfranchisement for NI? Where NI voters will lose their votes that set the laws and regulations that affect them? Which the voters of NI havent approved but the MPs of NI bitterly oppose?
The contempt for NI is palpable. The DUP should sit down and shut up and forget the fact they will no longer ever get a say in their own laws unless their betters reach a deal to let them get involved again. It's a disgrace and if the backstop applied to England not Northern Ireland it would never have seen the light of day.
And yet over 60% of NI voters apparently back May's deal according to recent polling.
This may come as a shock but I believe in setting laws and fundamental rights via democracy not opinion polls...
Which is precisely why I back a second referendum.
Let's say no deal wins a second referendum. Then what?
No deal won’t get on the ballot . The EC won’t sanction that question as it’s too vague .
We keep being told that 'Leave' was too vague but it still got on the ballot.
If they support no deal they are toast come the next election . So far they haven’t gone down the no deal route and given recent polling from NI they really would be in big trouble if they joined the No Deal fantasists .
The no deal lobby seem to think that day after day of terrible headlines with business upping sticks and leaving , the pound crashing etc will see MPs just sit there and accept this outcome .
We won’t have to wait till March next year to see the fallout , it will happen quickly within weeks and the ERG nutjobs fail to see the end result . Article 50 will be revoked even without a second ref planned .
But I cannot see Boris ever being put to the final 2. Brady will make sure to carefully coordinate Javid's and Hunt's second preferences to make sure there's always two in the running with more support than Boris so he can't ever be put to the members.
Or, if that fails, they could always withdraw the whip on the grounds of him being a disgraced shitbag and amoral sociopathic snake.
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
The Government won't revoke Article 50 though Parliament may try and force EUref2.
Corbyn has no clue what he wants on Brexit other thsn to exploit it for political ends, it was May who did the hard work to get a Deal
May got a deal by giving the EU all it wanted and getting nothing in return. Nothing very hard about that. All she is done is alienate all the uate.
Rubbish. May has got a Deal to protect the economy while still ending free movement, the biggest stimulus to Scottish nationalism and a United Ireland would be No Deal Brexit.
Most voters recognise that hence Deal trounced No Deal 62% to 38% with Yougov yesterday and tied Remain while No Deal narrowly trailed Remain. The Deal is the only unity option available now.
Corbyn is utterly clueless as would be clear within 5 minutes of him ever having to make a tough decision in government
That’s an absurd comment even by your standards. Trade has even been discussed let alone agreed. She has stood idly by whilst the EU has tried to entice financial services away, done nothing to make Britain a more attractive country in which to invest; she has signed us up to the common external tariff, put a customs border between NI and the rest of the U.K. and signed us up to EU trading regs with absolutely no say on them at all. If you think that is a good deal, you need help only the medical profession can provide.
I admire your blind faith in forecasts when you know nothing the assumptions input into them or their credibility and ignore the track record of forecasters who proved to be wildly inaccurate. I don’t admire your intellectual timidity in succumbing so easily to Project Fear and in opining on a no deal which hasn’t been tried. I think ignoring the votes of 17.4 million people is probably more likely to start a civil war than a no deal Brexit.
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
Or maybe the Brexiteers failed to make their case
I think we are already an International laughing stock and voting in a second referendum to remain and / or revoking A50 would be a good way to start recovering from our collective 'Ratner' moment
The Brexiteers made their case and we voted to end EU law and take back control to Westminster. This deal doesn't do that.
We should go back to the EU and say we are setting our own laws so the backstop is a non starter but we will take the rest of the deal if you want it. We voted on taking control not this deal and should get the best available deal which leaves us control of our own laws. If that is no deal so be it.
We voted to Leave, nothing more. May's Deal certainly has us leaving.
Leave but stay in the customs union and subject to single market regulations. Some leave.
But crucially end free movement
Crucial to whom? To Mrs May, yes. To Parliament? To her backbenchers? Doesn't look like it. Parliament is moving towards various kinds of remain and BRINO deal that will keep the rights of UK citizens intact.
One of May's persistent and ongoing miscalculations has been that her Party hates immigrants as much as she does. We're now seeing the consequences of that miscalculation.
Thanks to Sajid, May doesn't even have an immigration policy now, because he torpedoed it below the waterline.
Tories backed the Deal 41% to 39% for No Deal with Yougov yesterday and just 19% for Remain so you are absolutely wrong on that.
Second of course Leave would not have got over 50% without promising to cut immigration.
Leave free movement in place and UKIP/Tommy Robinson or new Farage party will be on a quarter of the vote in 6 months much like the far right is in most of Europe
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
You're making a very compelling case for abolitioning the Department for Education & LEAs and privatising the school system.
Instead of spending so much money on schools and wages we give the parents of every child school vouchers and they can choose where they send their kids.
And the not insignificant number of children whose parents would be entirely incapable of navigating (or entirely unwilling to bother engaging with) such a system ?
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
You're making a very compelling case for abolitioning the Department for Education & LEAs and privatising the school system.
Instead of spending so much money on schools and wages we give the parents of every child school vouchers and they can choose where they send their kids.
Equal opportunities not really high on your list is it TSE?
It is, is why I'm an egalitarian, is why I'm favour of abolishing the monarchy.
Then how does education vouchers help? All it would do is subsidise the 7% who already can afford to pay for a privileged education for their kids. Oh, and allow some people to make a fat profit out of the provision for the masses.
Oxbridge and the other unis have had plenty of time to sort this out and singularly failed. They should just be given quotas and told to match their intake to the population demographics, by education type, ethnic background, region etc.
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
You're making a very compelling case for abolitioning the Department for Education & LEAs and privatising the school system.
Instead of spending so much money on schools and wages we give the parents of every child school vouchers and they can choose where they send their kids.
And the not insignificant number of children whose parents would be entirely incapable of navigating (or entirely unwilling to bother engaging with) such a system ?
It'd be a crime to not send your children to school or sell your vouchers.
I'd be even willing to offer subsidies to proper parents/areas.
I thought it had already been decided that it can be revoked?
I am obviously not keeping up!
That was the opinion of the ECJ's advocate general, made in accordance with the ECJ's instructions. In 80% of cases the court's final rulings are substantially similar to the Advocate's opinion.
I would not expect the ECJ's ruling to be substantially different, but they might try to plug a few minor holes in the opinion before making it a ruling.
One thing that might be very useful is if the gold-plate the opinion with more clarity in what might and might not be considered abusive/bad faith when it comes to A50.
We’ll be an international laughing stock if we revoke Article 50, and rightly so having handled Brexit so incompetently. This Gov, which has no real conservative policies, has demonstrated only how inept they are and have succeeded in nothing but make Corbyn look credible. You have to be really pathetic to do that.
Revoking article 50 and letting Brussels tell our MPs what to do probably suits our MPs but doesn’t suit those of us who voted Leave who will rightly feel a sense of betrayal by a Parliament that is clearly unfit for purpose.
The Government won't revoke Article 50 though Parliament may try and force EUref2.
Corbyn has no clue what he wants on Brexit other thsn to exploit it for political ends, it was May who did the hard work to get a Deal
May got a deal by giving the EU all it wanted and getting nothing in return. Nothing very hard about that. All she is done is alienate all the Leavers, agree to betray Northern Ireland and provide an unwelcome stimulus to Scottish Nationalism.
I think Corbyn is pretty clueless too but then sotoo is May. Corbyn is simply more politically astute because he has focussed much more on domestic issues. He doesn’t have credible answers but has made May look totally inadequate.
The voters rate TM over Corbyn by 35 /24 and have done so for months
Big deal. May lost a 20% lead in the polls in the last election and Labour are pretty much level pegging with the Tories in the polls and have been despite their problems with anti semitism and misogyny.
Labour pretty much level pegging in this crisis says how utterly useless Corbyn is.
I rather thought it showed how useless May was that she was unable to build a lead against such an ideologically driven, hard left Opposition.
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
You're making a very compelling case for abolitioning the Department for Education & LEAs and privatising the school system.
Instead of spending so much money on schools and wages we give the parents of every child school vouchers and they can choose where they send their kids.
Equal opportunities not really high on your list is it TSE?
It is, is why I'm an egalitarian, is why I'm favour of abolishing the monarchy.
Then how does education vouchers help? All it would do is subsidise the 7% who already can afford to pay for a privileged education for their kids. Oh, and allow some people to make a fat profit out of the provision for the masses.
Oxbridge and the other unis have had plenty of time to sort this out and singularly failed. The should just be given quotas and told to match their intake to the population demographics, by education type, ethnic background, region etc.
That would be unjust. People who perform well at A Level would be penalised because of their social background. People who perform badly would get in regardless.
I thought it had already been decided that it can be revoked?
I am obviously not keeping up!
That was the opinion of the ECJ's advocate general, made in accordance with the ECJ's instructions. In 80% of cases the court's final rulings are substantially similar to the Advocate's opinion.
I would not expect the ECJ's ruling to be substantially different, but they might try to plug a few minor holes in the opinion before making it a ruling.
One thing that might be very useful is if the gold-plate the opinion with more clarity in what might and might not be considered abusive/bad faith when it comes to A50.
Is it as low as 80%? I thought it was nearly always, which I guess I took to be >95%.
This is the best available deal short of remaining in the EU
You've gone from Dealer to Norway+ to Remain within a week. I expect we'll see that happen a lot next week.
Almost but not quite. TM deal is my preferered choice but Norway seems so close to remain, we may as well remain and take the EU on from within
The irony is that at this time, Merkel has virtually gone and Macron is plummeting faster than the pheasants mentioned earlier. Maybe UK could have a lot of influence inside the EU
Norway is not on offer from the EU
EFTA is looking unlikely as they are worrying that our Euroscepticism would be at odds with their Europhilia (they like the EU to a large extent)
So it is May's Deal, Remain or No Deal.
That is it. If Parliament will not countenance May's Deal or No Deal, then we only have one option left, but all these other deals people talk about are not going to happen.
Well there is the obvious option of a second referendum offering those three choices - but otherwise, I agree entirely.
You're making a very compelling case for abolitioning the Department for Education & LEAs and privatising the school system.
Instead of spending so much money on schools and wages we give the parents of every child school vouchers and they can choose where they send their kids.
If the vouchers were of equal value and could not be augmented from private resources then that could be a policy and a half.
Less radically, bring back free university education but available only to kids who went to state school. Others must pay the full cost. The 7% would shrink very quickly. Private school becomes a choice for rich eccentrics only.
We thought it'd be like IDS all over again, he'd show he wasn't up to the job and be deposed within 18 months.
Obviously with Boris in charge we wouldn't campaign for the Tories other than for people we knew/our friends.
I'll rejoin if/when Boris is replaced by someone I can support.
I realise I would forfeit my vote on said replacement, but if Boris has been deposed in 18 months I suspect the swing would be towards the centre of the party thereafter.
This is the best available deal short of remaining in the EU
You've gone from Dealer to Norway+ to Remain within a week. I expect we'll see that happen a lot next week.
Almost but not quite. TM deal is my preferered choice but Norway seems so close to remain, we may as well remain and take the EU on from within
The irony is that at this time, Merkel has virtually gone and Macron is plummeting faster than the pheasants mentioned earlier. Maybe UK could have a lot of influence inside the EU
Norway is not on offer from the EU
EFTA is looking unlikely as they are worrying that our Euroscepticism would be at odds with their Europhilia (they like the EU to a large extent)
So it is May's Deal, Remain or No Deal.
That is it. If Parliament will not countenance May's Deal or No Deal, then we only have one option left, but all these other deals people talk about are not going to happen.
Well there is the obvious option of a second referendum offering those three choices - but otherwise, I agree entirely.
Only “deal” and “no deal” are within the gift of the British electorate.
And since Parliament seems to plan to ignore them on the former, why should we expect any different on the latter?
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
You're making a very compelling case for abolitioning the Department for Education & LEAs and privatising the school system.
Instead of spending so much money on schools and wages we give the parents of every child school vouchers and they can choose where they send their kids.
Equal opportunities not really high on your list is it TSE?
It is, is why I'm an egalitarian, is why I'm favour of abolishing the monarchy.
Then how does education vouchers help? All it would do is subsidise the 7% who already can afford to pay for a privileged education for their kids. Oh, and allow some people to make a fat profit out of the provision for the masses.
Oxbridge and the other unis have had plenty of time to sort this out and singularly failed. The should just be given quotas and told to match their intake to the population demographics, by education type, ethnic background, region etc.
That would be unjust. People who perform well at A Level would be penalised because of their social background. People who perform badly would get in regardless.
Which do you think it the greater achievement: getting an 'A*' A-level at Eton or a 'B' at an inner-city comprehensive?
This is the best available deal short of remaining in the EU
You've gone from Dealer to Norway+ to Remain within a week. I expect we'll see that happen a lot next week.
Almost but not quite. TM deal is my preferered choice but Norway seems so close to remain, we may as well remain and take the EU on from within
The irony is that at this time, Merkel has virtually gone and Macron is plummeting faster than the pheasants mentioned earlier. Maybe UK could have a lot of influence inside the EU
Norway is not on offer from the EU
EFTA is looking unlikely as they are worrying that our Euroscepticism would be at odds with their Europhilia (they like the EU to a large extent)
So it is May's Deal, Remain or No Deal.
That is it. If Parliament will not countenance May's Deal or No Deal, then we only have one option left, but all these other deals people talk about are not going to happen.
Well there is the obvious option of a second referendum offering those three choices - but otherwise, I agree entirely.
Only “deal” and “no deal” are within the gift of the British electorate.
And since Parliament seems to plan to ignore them on the former, why should we expect any different on the latter?
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions: 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools 18% of those taking A-levels are at private school 34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
You're making a very compelling case for abolitioning the Department for Education & LEAs and privatising the school system.
Instead of spending so much money on schools and wages we give the parents of every child school vouchers and they can choose where they send their kids.
Equal opportunities not really high on your list is it TSE?
It is, is why I'm an egalitarian, is why I'm favour of abolishing the monarchy.
Then how does education vouchers help? All it would do is subsidise the 7% who already can afford to pay for a privileged education for their kids. Oh, and allow some people to make a fat profit out of the provision for the masses.
Oxbridge and the other unis have had plenty of time to sort this out and singularly failed. The should just be given quotas and told to match their intake to the population demographics, by education type, ethnic background, region etc.
That would be unjust. People who perform well at A Level would be penalised because of their social background. People who perform badly would get in regardless.
Which do you think it the greater achievement: getting an 'A*' A-level at Eton or a 'B' at an inner-city comprehensive?
Depends on the subject, if it is A* in further maths versus B in the history of art then it is the A* star every time.
This is the best available deal short of remaining in the EU
You've gone from Dealer to Norway+ to Remain within a week. I expect we'll see that happen a lot next week.
Almost but not quite. TM deal is my preferered choice but Norway seems so close to remain, we may as well remain and take the EU on from within
The irony is that at this time, Merkel has virtually gone and Macron is plummeting faster than the pheasants mentioned earlier. Maybe UK could have a lot of influence inside the EU
Norway is not on offer from the EU
EFTA is looking unlikely as they are worrying that our Euroscepticism would be at odds with their Europhilia (they like the EU to a large extent)
So it is May's Deal, Remain or No Deal.
That is it. If Parliament will not countenance May's Deal or No Deal, then we only have one option left, but all these other deals people talk about are not going to happen.
Well there is the obvious option of a second referendum offering those three choices - but otherwise, I agree entirely.
Only “deal” and “no deal” are within the gift of the British electorate.
And since Parliament seems to plan to ignore them on the former, why should we expect any different on the latter?
Why not Remain?
It might not be the gift of us after the CJEU ruling.
We thought it'd be like IDS all over again, he'd show he wasn't up to the job and be deposed within 18 months.
Obviously with Boris in charge we wouldn't campaign for the Tories other than for people we knew/our friends.
I'll rejoin if/when Boris is replaced by someone I can support.
I realise I would forfeit my vote on said replacement, but if Boris has been deposed in 18 months I suspect the swing would be towards the centre of the party thereafter.
Keeping my vote for the replacement is very attractive.
Only “deal” and “no deal” are within the gift of the British electorate.
And since Parliament seems to plan to ignore them on the former, why should we expect any different on the latter?
I don't see how No Deal could ever be on a ballot paper. For one thing, Parliament will never agree to implement it, so could not risk it being an option.
Secondly, it'd never pass the electoral commission's clarity tests, since it's not clear to anyone what No Deal actually means and what the consequences are.
The referendum will be Remain vs May Deal, Brexiteers will boycott it by their millions, Remain will win by a landslide, UK will remain but on a referendum with zero legitimacy.
Comments
I think we are already an International laughing stock and voting in a second referendum to remain and / or revoking A50 would be a good way to start recovering from our collective 'Ratner' moment
Oxbridge 'over-recruits from eight schools'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46470838
"The report shows the imbalance in admissions:
7% of all UK pupils attend private schools
18% of those taking A-levels are at private school
34% of Oxbridge applications are from private school
42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils"
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1071020674725150720
We should go back to the EU and say we are setting our own laws so the backstop is a non starter but we will take the rest of the deal if you want it. We voted on taking control not this deal and should get the best available deal which leaves us control of our own laws. If that is no deal so be it.
... and it’s not exactly an enormous distance on the political spectrum from Thornberry to Clarke.
This is a judicial power grab of sorts- the ECJ has given itself a veto over the A50 process to prevent abuse. But I'm not sure it's an unreasonable power grab since it's the only thing the EU would have to stop member states playing silly buggers with it.
Also, I think it very unlikely that, if A50 were invoked, a future British government would want to embark on another Brexit shitshow for a very long time.
I think Corbyn is pretty clueless too but then sotoo is May. Corbyn is simply more politically astute because he has focussed much more on domestic issues. He doesn’t have credible answers but has made May look totally inadequate.
CAPITAL CONTROLS
I rather thought Leave did make its case which is why it won and Remain lost. Handing Brexit to Parliament dominated by Remain supporters and who showed gross incompetence by failing to prepare for no deal was the problem which is why the muppets in Westminster ante now in headless chicken mode.
TBH, if he's allowing the Benn amendment, he should really allow the government amendment. They're both stupid, non-effective, wrecking amendments IMHO.
More chance of the ERG working out that they are screwing their chances of any sort of Brexit tbh.
Article 15 of his advice
"Moreover, any abuse could occur only when a second notification of the intention to withdraw is submitted, but not by unilaterally revoking the first."
I agree with you about Grieve,not about the others. Grieve is the only MP who has given any thought to the issues and thought through how to achieve what he wants - even though what he wants is not what I want. Everyone else in parliament has been totally inept
There are some state comprehensives and academies like Mossbourne which have a good Oxbridge record as do sixth form colleges but since the decline of the grammar schools inevitably the competition has reduced for the likes of Eton and Westminster
Most voters recognise that hence Deal trounced No Deal 62% to 38% with Yougov yesterday and tied Remain while No Deal narrowly trailed Remain. The Deal is the only unity option available now.
Corbyn is utterly clueless as would be clear within 5 minutes of him ever having to make a tough decision in government
Instead of spending so much money on schools and wages we give the parents of every child school vouchers and they can choose where they send their kids.
Your reasoning makes sense but the state of affairs is abominable.
But if it's been discussed at length no point in labouring the point, I guess.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2018/12/seven-rules-remainers-if-they-want-win-people-s-vote
The irony is that at this time, Merkel has virtually gone and Macron is plummeting faster than the pheasants mentioned earlier. Maybe UK could have a lot of influence inside the EU
Privately educated kids = Lots of (intellectual) self confidence who do well in interviews.
Pleb kids = Kids who don't think they deserve to be here and that transmits itself in the interview.
Out of my many many many faults qualities, a lack of self confidence isn't one of them.
The treaties will then be revised in future.
One of May's persistent and ongoing miscalculations has been that her Party hates immigrants as much as she does. We're now seeing the consequences of that miscalculation.
Thanks to Sajid, May doesn't even have an immigration policy now, because he torpedoed it below the waterline.
EFTA is looking unlikely as they are worrying that our Euroscepticism would be at odds with their Europhilia (they like the EU to a large extent)
So it is May's Deal, Remain or No Deal.
That is it. If Parliament will not countenance May's Deal or No Deal, then we only have one option left, but all these other deals people talk about are not going to happen.
The voters understand that hence Deal trounced No Deal 62% to 38% with Yougov. Both Remainers and No Deal voters put Deal as their second choice too and it is the only compromise now.
On the other hand Remain leads No Deal Brexit just 52% to 48% so if fanatics like you want a near civil war with that option be my guest!
No was 'project fear'.
Total EU spending is only 1% of members states' budgets. For that, it does a huge amount on behalf of all 28 states. Not many people on either side seem to know that.
He is finished
If they support no deal they are toast come the next election . So far they haven’t gone down the no deal route and given recent polling from NI they really would be in big trouble if they joined the No Deal fantasists .
The no deal lobby seem to think that day after day of terrible headlines with business upping sticks and leaving , the pound crashing etc will see MPs just sit there and accept this outcome .
We won’t have to wait till March next year to see the fallout , it will happen quickly within weeks and the ERG nutjobs fail to see the end result . Article 50 will be revoked even without a second ref planned .
But I cannot see Boris ever being put to the final 2. Brady will make sure to carefully coordinate Javid's and Hunt's second preferences to make sure there's always two in the running with more support than Boris so he can't ever be put to the members.
Or, if that fails, they could always withdraw the whip on the grounds of him being a disgraced shitbag and amoral sociopathic snake.
Second of course Leave would not have got over 50% without promising to cut immigration.
Leave free movement in place and UKIP/Tommy Robinson or new Farage party will be on a quarter of the vote in 6 months much like the far right is in most of Europe
I am obviously not keeping up!
I discussed this with JohnO.
We thought it'd be like IDS all over again, he'd show he wasn't up to the job and be deposed within 18 months.
Obviously with Boris in charge we wouldn't campaign for the Tories other than for people we knew/our friends.
Oxbridge and the other unis have had plenty of time to sort this out and singularly failed. They should just be given quotas and told to match their intake to the population demographics, by education type, ethnic background, region etc.
I'd be even willing to offer subsidies to proper parents/areas.
I would not expect the ECJ's ruling to be substantially different, but they might try to plug a few minor holes in the opinion before making it a ruling.
One thing that might be very useful is if the gold-plate the opinion with more clarity in what might and might not be considered abusive/bad faith when it comes to A50.
Less radically, bring back free university education but available only to kids who went to state school. Others must pay the full cost. The 7% would shrink very quickly. Private school becomes a choice for rich eccentrics only.
I realise I would forfeit my vote on said replacement, but if Boris has been deposed in 18 months I suspect the swing would be towards the centre of the party thereafter.
Tory coronation of Nadine Dorries.
And since Parliament seems to plan to ignore them on the former, why should we expect any different on the latter?
https://twitter.com/daily_express/status/1071027959203590144?s=21
Do the French have a word for “schadenfreude” ?
Secondly, it'd never pass the electoral commission's clarity tests, since it's not clear to anyone what No Deal actually means and what the consequences are.
The referendum will be Remain vs May Deal, Brexiteers will boycott it by their millions, Remain will win by a landslide, UK will remain but on a referendum with zero legitimacy.