@DavidL - some Brexiteers have changed their minds, and think we should remain. They do not have the courage to admit this publicly, so they will vote against the deal claiming that it is an insufficiently hard Brexit.
I am utterly convinced.
If you want to go down that route, then Raab's your man in the leadership contest.
I think Raab definitely falls into this category. It’s very difficult to respect someone who chooses this course of action over honesty.
The Galileo project cost the UK government £1 billion, and we won't be able to access it after Brexit.
(I daresay it is more complex than that, with much of the project's money being spent with UK companies that developed much of the tech and built much of the hardware.)
Why on Earth is the DUP's threat not as originally reported, i.e. if May puts it to a vote? That would make 10x as much sense as if it is passed.
No, I don't think so. They don't actually want to bring down the government. They want to stop the WA, and replace May with a Brexiteer with whom they can continue their comfy little C&S love in for a few more years.
Consider the threat to take away May's majority a kind of... backstop.
Except well over 200 Tory MPs back May's Deal and indeed with Yougov this week the Tories have a clear lead.
Sounds to me that they want the deal passed without their tacit support.
There is an awful lot of "virtue signalling" going on.
Everyone wants to prove their Eurosceptic credentials - especially if there's a leadership election coming up - but they mostly secretly fear the consequence of a No Deal Brexit, and what it would mean for themselves and the country.
The Galileo project cost the UK government £1 billion, and we won't be able to access it after Brexit.
(I daresay it is more complex than that, with much of the project's money being spent with UK companies that developed much of the tech and built much of the hardware.)
The Galileo project cost the UK government £1 billion, and we won't be able to access it after Brexit.
(I daresay it is more complex than that, with much of the project's money being spent with UK companies that developed much of the tech and built much of the hardware.)
Surprised they didn't take the approach as they have with the intelligence sharing database, and just charge a fee.
However, when it comes to the intelligence sharing, the UK provide the bulk of the info, so May has signed up to continuing to providing all this data and now paying a fee on top. Brilliant negotiations.
Not so much leaving a golf club and asking to continue to play there for a reduced rate, more owning and maintaining the golf club and then agreeing now to pay to use your own course.
The Galileo project cost the UK government £1 billion, and we won't be able to access it after Brexit.
(I daresay it is more complex than that, with much of the project's money being spent with UK companies that developed much of the tech and built much of the hardware.)
Always an ERG ready for a daft suggestion Sir William Cash piled in, suggesting that the UK could simply knock the Galileo £1bn off the eventual divorce bill.
Most people don't read or understand the deal. They take their lead from their political heroes. Hence the need for TM to "convert" some leading Brexiteer figures.
If they bring the government down GE it is, no one billion for them and no influence post GE
They might have some influence post GE, the general Labour/Tory numbers are very tight still.
If my party bows to threats from the DUP to influence the election of my leader I will fight them even if they brimg the government down. I do not belong in the ERG/UKIP/ DUP party
Sounds to me that they want the deal passed without their tacit support.
There is an awful lot of "virtue signalling" going on.
Everyone wants to prove their Eurosceptic credentials - especially if there's a leadership election coming up - but they mostly secretly fear the consequence of a No Deal Brexit, and what it would mean for themselves and the country.
The whole thing is rather depressing.
The amusing part is Corbyn's WA would look so almost completely identical to May's !
Met Police scooter crash video released as IOPC investigates
However, the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) said it is investigating three cases involving "tactical contact" by Met police cars on scooters.
According to the IOPC, one of the cases being investigated involved a 17-year-old boy who suffered head injuries a year ago in Bexley.
The Galileo project cost the UK government £1 billion, and we won't be able to access it after Brexit.
(I daresay it is more complex than that, with much of the project's money being spent with UK companies that developed much of the tech and built much of the hardware.)
Surprised they didn't take the approach as they have with the intelligence sharing database, and just charge a fee.
However, when it comes to the intelligence sharing, the UK provide the bulk of the info, so May has signed up to continuing to providing all this data and now paying a fee on top. Brilliant negotiations.
Not so much leaving a golf club and asking to continue to play there for a reduced rate, more owning and maintaining the golf club and then agreeing now to pay to use your own course.
I doubt its true.. We have a lot of levers we can pull.
Sounds to me that they want the deal passed without their tacit support.
There is an awful lot of "virtue signalling" going on.
Everyone wants to prove their Eurosceptic credentials - especially if there's a leadership election coming up - but they mostly secretly fear the consequence of a No Deal Brexit, and what it would mean for themselves and the country.
The Galileo project cost the UK government £1 billion, and we won't be able to access it after Brexit.
(I daresay it is more complex than that, with much of the project's money being spent with UK companies that developed much of the tech and built much of the hardware.)
Surprised they didn't take the approach as they have with the intelligence sharing database, and just charge a fee.
However, when it comes to the intelligence sharing, the UK provide the bulk of the info, so May has signed up to continuing to providing all this data and now paying a fee on top. Brilliant negotiations.
Not so much leaving a golf club and asking to continue to play there for a reduced rate, more owning and maintaining the golf club and then agreeing now to pay to use your own course.
Incidentally re Mike's wager on a 2nd ref - if the referendum is deal v no deal with no option to remain as Trevor Phillips suggested on QT last night does he get his payout?
If they bring the government down GE it is, no one billion for them and no influence post GE
They might have some influence post GE, the general Labour/Tory numbers are very tight still.
If my party bows to threats from the DUP to influence the election of my leader I will fight them even if they brimg the government down. I do not belong in the ERG/UKIP/ DUP party
Why on Earth is the DUP's threat not as originally reported, i.e. if May puts it to a vote? That would make 10x as much sense as if it is passed.
No, I don't think so. They don't actually want to bring down the government. They want to stop the WA, and replace May with a Brexiteer with whom they can continue their comfy little C&S love in for a few more years.
Consider the threat to take away May's majority a kind of... backstop.
Except well over 200 Tory MPs back May's Deal and indeed with Yougov this week the Tories have a clear lead.
Why on Earth is the DUP's threat not as originally reported, i.e. if May puts it to a vote? That would make 10x as much sense as if it is passed.
No, I don't think so. They don't actually want to bring down the government. They want to stop the WA, and replace May with a Brexiteer with whom they can continue their comfy little C&S love in for a few more years.
Consider the threat to take away May's majority a kind of... backstop.
Except well over 200 Tory MPs back May's Deal and indeed with Yougov this week the Tories have a clear lead.
Wrong. Put Deal up against No Deal and Deal wins with 34% to 27% for No Deal with Ashcroft's poll today. That is the ONLY choice that matters if Brexit is to continue
Why on Earth is the DUP's threat not as originally reported, i.e. if May puts it to a vote? That would make 10x as much sense as if it is passed.
No, I don't think so. They don't actually want to bring down the government. They want to stop the WA, and replace May with a Brexiteer with whom they can continue their comfy little C&S love in for a few more years.
Consider the threat to take away May's majority a kind of... backstop.
Except well over 200 Tory MPs back May's Deal and indeed with Yougov this week the Tories have a clear lead.
Why on Earth is the DUP's threat not as originally reported, i.e. if May puts it to a vote? That would make 10x as much sense as if it is passed.
No, I don't think so. They don't actually want to bring down the government. They want to stop the WA, and replace May with a Brexiteer with whom they can continue their comfy little C&S love in for a few more years.
Consider the threat to take away May's majority a kind of... backstop.
Except well over 200 Tory MPs back May's Deal and indeed with Yougov this week the Tories have a clear lead.
Tory voters are split 35% for the Deal 35% for No Deal.
Labour voters back the Deal 35% to 24% for No Deal.
A huge 53% of LDs back May's Deal over just 11% for No Deal
And like MPs, the public opinion may well shift dramatically after the first meaningful vote at the deal is defeated and No Deal becomes a real looming possibility, but until that point, clearly noone's really automatically convinced by this deal thing.
Have you read all 585 pages of the deal? Kudos to you if you have.
I'm informed, I've read plenty of news articles, comments from here and more about the deal. That ought to be sufficient to be informed enough to discuss it here.
However the statement I made wasn't even about the deal it was about why people are opposing it. You don't need to read the deal to make such a statement, you need to listen to the reasons people say they are opposing the deal. The backstop or other end-state issues are far more quoted as the reason why the deal is opposed than the transition.
Yep. And the additional Political Declaration. It is not straight forward because it does reference other EU treaties and documents but if you are going to comment on it then that should only be from a position of having read it. Particularly since I have seen almost no commentary that is neutral - it all reflects the writer's own bias for or against Brexit or for or against May. Certainly there have been plenty of completely ill informed comments on here regarding what is or isn't in the WA. It is striking that it seems to be those who have actually read it from both sides of the debate who seem to be the most at ease with it even if they accept it is far from perfect.
Nobody here has read the deal. Anyone who claims they have is a liar.
Even if I were minded to, I'm not an international trade lawyer, I'm not even qualified to read the pre-amble.
You don't need to read something to know it's bad, BTW. I've not read Mein Kampf, L. Ron Hubbard or the UKIP manifesto but that doesn't mean I can't state with absolute certainty that they are BAD.
I have read every draft treaty that has been produced since the late 80s. I also went back and read all the earlier treaties - something that is necessary as all the treaties basically cross reference earlier agreements.
You are one of those making claims against the WA without having even looked at it. Hence the reason you have absolutely no credibility and no idea.
I've always thought my future was best shaped by the wishes of the Spanish PM. Or perhaps otherwise.
I probably should care what he says, but I simply don't. Until he and others convince me that they're going to say sensible things then we're best outside their club. It's fair to point out though that I'd probably leave the UK on that basis, and form an island of one.
Why on Earth is the DUP's threat not as originally reported, i.e. if May puts it to a vote? That would make 10x as much sense as if it is passed.
No, I don't think so. They don't actually want to bring down the government. They want to stop the WA, and replace May with a Brexiteer with whom they can continue their comfy little C&S love in for a few more years.
Consider the threat to take away May's majority a kind of... backstop.
Except well over 200 Tory MPs back May's Deal and indeed with Yougov this week the Tories have a clear lead.
Tory voters are split 35% for the Deal 35% for No Deal.
Labour voters back the Deal 35% to 24% for No Deal.
A huge 53% of LDs back May's Deal over just 11% for No Deal
And like MPs, the public opinion may well shift dramatically after the first meaningful vote at the deal is defeated and No Deal becomes a real looming possibility, but until that point, clearly noone's really automatically convinced by this deal thing.
May knows what she has to do, rule out EUref2 and force a choice between her Deal and the economic abyss of No Deal.
Force that choice and she wins as the polling increasingly shows, it will not be pretty but it could work
The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.
Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
Until he and others convince me that they're going to say sensible things then we're best outside their club. It's fair to point out though that I'd probably leave the UK on that basis, and form an island of one.
You could club together with some like minded people and colonise one of the Andaman Islands.
I've always thought my future was best shaped by the wishes of the Spanish PM. Or perhaps otherwise.
I probably should care what he says, but I simply don't. Until he and others convince me that they're going to say sensible things then we're best outside their club. It's fair to point out though that I'd probably leave the UK on that basis, and form an island of one.
Both of you of course realise the Spanish PM is only in a position to do anything because we voted for Brexit, right?
Without that, nobody would give a flying fuck what he says.
The Galileo project cost the UK government £1 billion, and we won't be able to access it after Brexit.
(I daresay it is more complex than that, with much of the project's money being spent with UK companies that developed much of the tech and built much of the hardware.)
Surprised they didn't take the approach as they have with the intelligence sharing database, and just charge a fee.
However, when it comes to the intelligence sharing, the UK provide the bulk of the info, so May has signed up to continuing to providing all this data and now paying a fee on top. Brilliant negotiations.
Not so much leaving a golf club and asking to continue to play there for a reduced rate, more owning and maintaining the golf club and then agreeing now to pay to use your own course.
I doubt its true.. We have a lot of levers we can pull.
Was reported on sky news and that the uk intelligence agencies were extremely pissed off.
Belatedly, there is a long list of people who have lost in court after following their belief that an unsigned contract does not bind. Signature is not one of the tests for simple contracts.
May knows what she has to do, rule out EUref2 and force a choice between her Deal and the economic abyss of No Deal.
Force that choice and she wins as the polling increasingly shows, it will not be pretty but it could work
That's what she's already doing - and it doesn't appear to be working at this moment in time.
Maybe by the time the vote comes around if she can stall it long enough to run the clock down further and ratchet the pressure up further, but right now? It doesn't look like it's working.
The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.
Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
Democracy makes everyone's vote equal, saint or sinner, diligent reader or biased thicko. If only the well informed were allowed to comment then threads would be a lot shorter.
The deal is significantly worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.
Met Police scooter crash video released as IOPC investigates
However, the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) said it is investigating three cases involving "tactical contact" by Met police cars on scooters.
According to the IOPC, one of the cases being investigated involved a 17-year-old boy who suffered head injuries a year ago in Bexley.
The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.
Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
Democracy makes everyone's vote equal, saint or sinner, diligent reader or biased thicko. If only the well informed were allowed to comment then threads would be a lot shorter.
The deal is significantly worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.
Obviously I disagree with you on at least half of that statement.
I've always thought my future was best shaped by the wishes of the Spanish PM. Or perhaps otherwise.
I probably should care what he says, but I simply don't. Until he and others convince me that they're going to say sensible things then we're best outside their club. It's fair to point out though that I'd probably leave the UK on that basis, and form an island of one.
Both of you of course realise the Spanish PM is only in a position to do anything because we voted for Brexit, right?
Without that, nobody would give a flying fuck what he says.
"Take Back Control"
Without Brexit he'd have roughly the same impact as the British PM. He has less influence on our affairs now, and will have less still if we leave the EU. Not sure if that answers your question.
Spain really are incredibly transparent on that issue, particularly given there are apparently regional elections coming up there. Obviously politicians will be politicians, wherever they are, but they're clearly not even trying to be serious or constructive. Not the only ones, obviously, but they are acting like the ERG of the EU right now.
And, for those who think like a child and thing bad behaviour by others excuses another's bad behaviour, that Brexit gives them the opportunity to sound off does not make anything they say reasonable.
May knows what she has to do, rule out EUref2 and force a choice between her Deal and the economic abyss of No Deal.
Force that choice and she wins as the polling increasingly shows, it will not be pretty but it could work
That's what she's already doing - and it doesn't appear to be working at this moment in time.
Maybe by the time the vote comes around if she can stall it long enough to run the clock down further and ratchet the pressure up further, but right now? It doesn't look like it's working.
She does not need it to work now (though already polls already show her Deal preferred to No Deal) she needs it to work on the second or subsequent votes after the markets crash, even her aides accept she likely loses the first vote
The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.
Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
Democracy makes everyone's vote equal, saint or sinner, diligent reader or biased thicko. If only the well informed were allowed to comment then threads would be a lot shorter.
The deal is significantly worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.
Obviously I disagree with you on at least half of that statement.
The order of the 3 possibilities is about values and aspirations. It doesn't need forensic analysis.
Personally, I have arranged my affairs to mean that I am fairly immune, so I can sit back and enjoy the Tory party tearing itself apart. I can't see that any of the 3 options end well for them.
So? Even if people are right and the EU will let us renegotiate, why the heck would they do that until we have at least voted the current offer down? Are people under the impression May genuinely thinks she is getting this deal through (on the first try at least, not that I think she'll get a second)? I don't find that very believable, therefore the reason she is pushing ahead must have nothing to do with thinking it will pass, so knowing so many are against is kind of irrelevant, it isn't going to scare her into a new path because this is the only path she personally has. It is clearly going to fail, and is just a step in the process.
Just watching Woods v Mickelson 9 million winner takes it all exhibition 18 hole match
Tiger just missed a gimme - 1 down through 2
10 years ago I would have been interested, now I can’t get excited by this event...and I say that as somebody would would watch twiddly winks if it was going to be exciting close match.
Lets not forget the trade issue.. Despite all the bullshit being spoken. We spend more with the EU than they do with us.. Its a disaster for the EU if its NO DEAL>
Almost 1 in 4 - so less than 79 - it was 87 yesterday
It is enough, either way. It's just a question of how embarrassed the government will be, then we find out just how much the EU is telling the truth if they say no more negotiation.
Spain really are incredibly transparent on that issue, particularly given there are apparently regional elections coming up there. Obviously politicians will be politicians, wherever they are, but they're clearly not even trying to be serious or constructive. Not the only ones, obviously, but they are acting like the ERG of the EU right now.
Spain with Gibraltar, Argentina with the Falklands, and to a lesser extent Ireland with NI. The whole idea of this reverse colonialism is probably as bad as the idea of colonialism in the first place. If Scotland chooses to become a province of Botswana then that's fine by me. Scotland should choose, Gibraltar should choose, and the Falklands should choose. I probably ought to give Botswanan's a veto mind you.
Lets not forget the trade issue.. Despite all the bullshit being spoken. We spend more with the EU than they do with us.. Its a disaster for the EU if its NO DEAL>
Not percentage wise, 16% of their exports go to the UK, 44% of our exports to the EU
Just watching Woods v Mickelson 9 million winner takes it all exhibition 18 hole match
Tiger just missed a gimme - 1 down through 2
10 years ago I would have been interested, now I can’t get excited by this event...and I say that as somebody would would watch twiddly winks if it was going to be exciting close match.
Watching two has beens play for 9 billion takes the mind off dozens of politicians taking the country into chaos
The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.
Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
Democracy makes everyone's vote equal, saint or sinner, diligent reader or biased thicko. If only the well informed were allowed to comment then threads would be a lot shorter.
The deal is significantly worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.
Obviously I disagree with you on at least half of that statement.
The order of the 3 possibilities is about values and aspirations. It doesn't need forensic analysis.
Personally, I have arranged my affairs to mean that I am fairly immune, so I can sit back and enjoy the Tory party tearing itself apart. I can't see that any of the 3 options end well for them.
I agree on that as well. I am not immune but will still enjoy seeing the Tory party destroyed. It is way past its useful lifespan.
Almost 1 in 4 - so less than 79 - it was 87 yesterday
It is enough, either way. It's just a question of how embarrassed the government will be, then we find out just how much the EU is telling the truth if they say no more negotiation.
I agree - indeed the whole thing is political drama beyond belief with no end in sight
Almost 1 in 4 - so less than 79 - it was 87 yesterday
It is enough, either way. It's just a question of how embarrassed the government will be, then we find out just how much the EU is telling the truth if they say no more negotiation.
I agree - indeed the whole thing is political drama beyond belief with no end in sight
Just watching Woods v Mickelson 9 million winner takes it all exhibition 18 hole match
Tiger just missed a gimme - 1 down through 2
10 years ago I would have been interested, now I can’t get excited by this event...and I say that as somebody would would watch twiddly winks if it was going to be exciting close match.
Watching two has beens play for 9 billion takes the mind off dozens of politicians taking the country into chaos
Just watching Woods v Mickelson 9 million winner takes it all exhibition 18 hole match
Tiger just missed a gimme - 1 down through 2
10 years ago I would have been interested, now I can’t get excited by this event...and I say that as somebody would would watch twiddly winks if it was going to be exciting close match.
Watching two has beens play for 9 billion takes the mind off dozens of politicians taking the country into chaos
If only it was for 9 billion ;-)
Oops - 9 million ( been thinking too much of the DUP )
Spain really are incredibly transparent on that issue, particularly given there are apparently regional elections coming up there. Obviously politicians will be politicians, wherever they are, but they're clearly not even trying to be serious or constructive. Not the only ones, obviously, but they are acting like the ERG of the EU right now.
And, for those who think like a child and thing bad behaviour by others excuses another's bad behaviour, that Brexit gives them the opportunity to sound off does not make anything they say reasonable.
Andalucia goes to the polls inabout a fortnight and PSOE would dearly love an absolute majority which they won't get. Talking tough on Gibraltar is part of this but Sanchez is completely unconvincing and he rules currently with less than a quarter of the seats inthe national parliament. He started well but things are going rapidly downhill.
Which does rather beg the question what's the bloody point of QMV if that is so?
The EU will agree it, legally that is clear, even the BBC reports Spain only has a 'moral veto' indeed the Evening Standard reported the German Ambassador and the Spanish Ambassador to the EU engaged in a shouting match with each other earlier over whether Gibraltar should hold up the Deal. The Spanish support would be helpful but is not vital, in the end as usual the Germans will get their way
Almost 1 in 4 - so less than 79 - it was 87 yesterday
It is enough, either way. It's just a question of how embarrassed the government will be, then we find out just how much the EU is telling the truth if they say no more negotiation.
I agree - indeed the whole thing is political drama beyond belief with no end in sight
I fear an end is in sight, but it is a pretty chaotic and haphazard one.
While we're all here, I thought I'd post quickly on recent economic statistics.
Basically, everywhere is slowing down, and the Eurozone fastest of all. (With one exception.)
German flash PMIs this morning were well down, coming in at 53.2 for the composite. That's down from 53.4 in the previous month, and well down on the expected 54. That being said, it's still someway from a recession. The overall Eurozone one weakened more, dropping from 53.1 to 52.4. The brightspot in the Eurozone is France, where a composite of 54 was fractionally above the expected 53.9. Macron may be upsetting the French voters, but the underlying economy is responding well to reform.
In the US, the PMI also came in light of expectations, and retreated markedly from the last month. At 54.4, it's a reasonable number (and marginally ahead of France), but this is indicative of an economy growing at perhaps 2.5% - not the 4% achieved in the second quarter of the year.
The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.
Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
Democracy makes everyone's vote equal, saint or sinner, diligent reader or biased thicko. If only the well informed were allowed to comment then threads would be a lot shorter.
The deal is significantly worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.
Obviously I disagree with you on at least half of that statement.
The order of the 3 possibilities is about values and aspirations. It doesn't need forensic analysis.
Personally, I have arranged my affairs to mean that I am fairly immune, so I can sit back and enjoy the Tory party tearing itself apart. I can't see that any of the 3 options end well for them.
I agree on that as well. I am not immune but will still enjoy seeing the Tory party destroyed. It is way past its useful lifespan.
The Tory Party is still doing fine thanks, a 3% lead over Labour with YouGov this week even with UKIP up to 6% and a 10% swing from Labour in the Bush Hill Park by election in Enfield last night
They seem to have a referendum every other week in Switzerland.
Perhap it is time for another one here too
I propose one on if the Cheese Rolling event should be allowed* by the authorities.
* In recent years, it is technically banned / roads blocked for miles around, but they can't stop the idiots turning up and running down the hill.
It's tradition, innit?
I have been to cheese rolling three times and competed twice. The feeling at the top of the hill is pretty much unparalleled. The bids are twittering in the trees. A man in a silly costume is holding an eight-pound double gloucester. You are one of two dozen or so maniacs variously clad in rugby boots, motocross padding and scruffy tracksuits. You lean forward and see the hill. At its steepest it is 1:1. Your breath condenses and falls away through the still morning air down the slope. You feel all the concentration and pump of a crux move on a rock face, all the camaraderie of a rugby dressing room and all the moment-before battle focus you get in martial arts. Plus you've had two ciders and its only 10.15am.
They seem to have a referendum every other week in Switzerland.
Perhap it is time for another one here too
I propose one on if the Cheese Rolling event should be allowed* by the authorities.
* In recent years, it is technically banned / roads blocked for miles around, but they can't stop the idiots turning up and running down the hill.
It's tradition, innit?
I have been to cheese rolling three times and competed twice. The feeling at the top of the hill is pretty much unparalleled. The bids are twittering in the trees. A man in a silly costume is holding an eight-pound double gloucester. You are one of two dozen or so maniacs variously clad in rugby boots, motocross padding and scruffy tracksuits. You lean forward and see the hill. At its steepest it is 1:1. Your breath condenses and falls away through the still morning air down the slope. You feel all the concentration and pump of a crux move on a rock face, all the camaraderie of a rugby dressing room and all the moment-before battle focus you get in martial arts. Plus you've had two ciders and its only 10.15am.
Only two ciders? It'd take more than that to get me up there!
The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.
Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
Democracy makes everyone's vote equal, saint or sinner, diligent reader or biased thicko. If only the well informed were allowed to comment then threads would be a lot shorter.
The deal is significantly worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.
Obviously I disagree with you on at least half of that statement.
The order of the 3 possibilities is about values and aspirations. It doesn't need forensic analysis.
Personally, I have arranged my affairs to mean that I am fairly immune, so I can sit back and enjoy the Tory party tearing itself apart. I can't see that any of the 3 options end well for them.
I agree on that as well. I am not immune but will still enjoy seeing the Tory party destroyed. It is way past its useful lifespan.
The Tory Party is still doing fine thanks, a 3% lead over Labour with YouGov this week even with UKIP up to 6% and a 10% swing from Labour in the Bush Hill Park by election in Enfield last night
That is a bit selective - other polls in the last week have the parties level pegging or show small Labour leads. Local by elections are often very local indeed - the Enfield result was certainly not reflected in the Westminster and Wirral results.
EDIT: Just to be clear though, the Confidence & supply agreement signed by the DUP commits them to supporting the government on all votes in the UK Parliament relating to:
All motions of confidence The Queen's Speech The Budget* Finance bills, money bills and appropriation legislation Legislation pertaining to the UK's exit from the European Union
The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.
Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
Democracy makes everyone's vote equal, saint or sinner, diligent reader or biased thicko. If only the well informed were allowed to comment then threads would be a lot shorter.
The deal is significantly worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.
Obviously I disagree with you on at least half of that statement.
The order of the 3 possibilities is about values and aspirations. It doesn't need forensic analysis.
Personally, I have arranged my affairs to mean that I am fairly immune, so I can sit back and enjoy the Tory party tearing itself apart. I can't see that any of the 3 options end well for them.
I agree on that as well. I am not immune but will still enjoy seeing the Tory party destroyed. It is way past its useful lifespan.
Established main political parties are very hard to destroy. The fact that the Tories have thousands of councillors, paying members and hanger-on people, mean it is not going to disappear even if Brexit backfires on them.
I can be confident in this assertion as history has shown (1945 onwards) time and again that Labour or Tory bounce back even after splits or defections. Just look at how Labour were written off in the aftermath of 1983! They won the biggest post war majority 14 years later with a majority of 179 seats over all other parties, a bigger majority than the Tories had in seats. The Tories likewise were hollowed out in 1997 and 2001, yet were back in government in 2010.
As long as Labour or the Tories have a critical mass of councillors, members and foot soldiers to take their message to the electorate they will not die! Politics is like a pendulum, it simply moves back and forth with the occasional unexpected move to the centre. This is unlikely to change.
Comments
(I daresay it is more complex than that, with much of the project's money being spent with UK companies that developed much of the tech and built much of the hardware.)
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/23/galileo/
* In recent years, it is technically banned / roads blocked for miles around, but they can't stop the idiots turning up and running down the hill.
Everyone wants to prove their Eurosceptic credentials - especially if there's a leadership election coming up - but they mostly secretly fear the consequence of a No Deal Brexit, and what it would mean for themselves and the country.
The whole thing is rather depressing.
Brexit on any plan is a disaster, but it's a disaster with a good (ish) final outcome. This has been obvious from the start.
However, when it comes to the intelligence sharing, the UK provide the bulk of the info, so May has signed up to continuing to providing all this data and now paying a fee on top. Brilliant negotiations.
Not so much leaving a golf club and asking to continue to play there for a reduced rate, more owning and maintaining the golf club and then agreeing now to pay to use your own course.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/23/theresa-may-accused-cronyism-handing-knighthood-brexit-backing/
A single instance of something and speculation really shouldn't be published.
Journalism can be such a great thing, and somehow it's slipping away. (I may be misinterpreting this particular situation, but there's a theme)
It is called deadlock
And some maintain they know how another referendum would pan out and the questions
https://t.co/HGi1Sru0T3?amp=1
Tory voters are split 35% for the Deal 35% for No Deal.
Labour voters back the Deal 35% to 24% for No Deal.
A huge 53% of LDs back May's Deal over just 11% for No Deal
You are one of those making claims against the WA without having even looked at it. Hence the reason you have absolutely no credibility and no idea.
I probably should care what he says, but I simply don't. Until he and others convince me that they're going to say sensible things then we're best outside their club. It's fair to point out though that I'd probably leave the UK on that basis, and form an island of one.
Force that choice and she wins as the polling increasingly shows, it will not be pretty but it could work
Without that, nobody would give a flying fuck what he says.
"Take Back Control"
Maybe by the time the vote comes around if she can stall it long enough to run the clock down further and ratchet the pressure up further, but right now? It doesn't look like it's working.
The deal is significantly worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.
Maybe Theresa should ask for her money back?
Tiger just missed a gimme - 1 down through 2
And, for those who think like a child and thing bad behaviour by others excuses another's bad behaviour, that Brexit gives them the opportunity to sound off does not make anything they say reasonable.
Personally, I have arranged my affairs to mean that I am fairly immune, so I can sit back and enjoy the Tory party tearing itself apart. I can't see that any of the 3 options end well for them.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46320527
Which does rather beg the question what's the bloody point of QMV if that is so?
Andalucia goes to the polls inabout a fortnight and PSOE would dearly love an absolute majority which they won't get. Talking tough on Gibraltar is part of this but Sanchez is completely unconvincing and he rules currently with less than a quarter of the seats inthe national parliament. He started well but things are going rapidly downhill.
https://twitter.com/GeorgeTrefgarne/status/1066073918312783872
Basically, everywhere is slowing down, and the Eurozone fastest of all. (With one exception.)
German flash PMIs this morning were well down, coming in at 53.2 for the composite. That's down from 53.4 in the previous month, and well down on the expected 54. That being said, it's still someway from a recession. The overall Eurozone one weakened more, dropping from 53.1 to 52.4. The brightspot in the Eurozone is France, where a composite of 54 was fractionally above the expected 53.9. Macron may be upsetting the French voters, but the underlying economy is responding well to reform.
In the US, the PMI also came in light of expectations, and retreated markedly from the last month. At 54.4, it's a reasonable number (and marginally ahead of France), but this is indicative of an economy growing at perhaps 2.5% - not the 4% achieved in the second quarter of the year.
The interesting thing is why May is travelling to Brussels on Saturday for an additional meeting with Juncker.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-still-to-receive-570m-of-tories-1bn-deal-with-dup-37550135.html
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-still-to-receive-570m-of-tories-1bn-deal-with-dup-37550135.html
EDIT: Just to be clear though, the Confidence & supply agreement signed by the DUP commits them to supporting the government on all votes in the UK Parliament relating to:
All motions of confidence
The Queen's Speech
The Budget*
Finance bills, money bills and appropriation legislation
Legislation pertaining to the UK's exit from the European Union
*So the DUP have already broken the agreement.
I can be confident in this assertion as history has shown (1945 onwards) time and again that Labour or Tory bounce back even after splits or defections. Just look at how Labour were written off in the aftermath of 1983! They won the biggest post war majority 14 years later with a majority of 179 seats over all other parties, a bigger majority than the Tories had in seats. The Tories likewise were hollowed out in 1997 and 2001, yet were back in government in 2010.
As long as Labour or the Tories have a critical mass of councillors, members and foot soldiers to take their message to the electorate they will not die! Politics is like a pendulum, it simply moves back and forth with the occasional unexpected move to the centre. This is unlikely to change.