Have to admire May going all out to sell her deal. It's almost George Foreman 'so good I put my name on it' territory.
But going over the heads of MPs to appeal to the public, while absolutely adamant that the public can have no say and have to bound by 2016 - not sure she has really thought those optics through here.
If it leads to a consensus that May did her best but Brexit is rubbish, I don’t see the downside for her. She can ultimately relent on a people’s vote, or wait for the Brexiteers to throw in the towel.
"If it leads to a consensus that May did her best but Brexit is rubbish"
It will never lead to that. At most, it will lead to the consensus that May's best was rubbish.
Brexit isn't rubbish; just it's implementation by Remainers. I think we can all reach a consensus on that....
Brexit is complete rubbish - on top of which it is being implemented by Conservatives.
You see - I can be just as assertive and dogmatic as you are!
The difference being he is right and you are wrong. I like this game.
I think that actually far from being thick they were more likely the sort of highly intelligent, zero common sense people you precisely don't want on a jury.
I think we need more openness as far as juries are concerned, like they have in the United States. It's far too secret at the moment. Once the trial is over, jurors ought to be able to talk about how and why they reached their decisions, if they choose to do so.
ISTR the Jeremy Thorpe case is the reason why English juries are put under an omertà.
We want to avoid going down the American route.
I find the whole concept of DAs attacking the accused the moment they charged.
I find that hard to reconcile with good jurisprudence.
Nothing compared to the outrage that is plea bargaining.
The Irish border...just don't build one. Neither Britain, Northern Ireland or Ireland want it.
I agree, but it's not me you need to persuade. If you want a smooth transition - which, unless you are a complete loon, you do - you've got to persuade the EU.
It's not the EU Richard. The EU, RoI, NI, GB don't want a hard border. But it would be out of their hands in a no-deal, WTO scenario. That is what none of those actors can risk.
So why not a deal which includes an RoI component and voila, out of the clutches of the WTO? Well that is precisely the point of the WA and the backstop.
There really is no other option and it is disingenuous of you to lay the blame at the EU's door.
I was being helpful to Xenon - even if the Irish border isn't an issue in reality, it's still an obstacle in the negotiations if the EU think it's an issue. I was challenging the ridiculous idea that we can unilaterally go for some mythical 'no deal' which somehow includes doing a deal with the EU (apparently without bothering to get their consent) on lots and lots of issues - 500+ pages worth, as we know.
It wouldn't be unilateral, that's the whole point. We should have stopped asking for the trade deal which was the main problem in the negotiations (because they wouldn't give it to us without a load of unacceptable stuff) in order to get a cleaner break. It's not rocket science.
The reason the EU is playing hardball over the Irish border is because we want a trade deal so they have lots of leverage. They could make a deal with us about that without all the other crap if we're just looking for a clean exit with no "cherry picking".
So we're leaving the EU because we want to be able to agree trade deals around the world but we don't want a trade deal with the EU?
You really are totally stupid but here goes.
We want a trade deal with the EU, but they won't give it to us without unreasonable conditions attached, so regrettably we would have to forgo this for the moment in order to get a clean break.
Is this simple enough for you to understand yet?
Xenon - he's a dense rare gas!
I am really enjoying some of the insults this afternoon. They are showing some real flair and intelligence.
Right I can predict the next few messages between us.
I'll say WTO and then you'll say "aha idiot WTO involves a hard border in Northern Ireland".
And I'll say yes but we could agree a RoI component. Then you'll say that's not no deal then is it?
And I'll say no of course not, no deal was never about not agreeing to anything with the EU, but an agreement would have been quite straight forward without us demanding favourable trade deals which they were determined not to give us without unacceptable conditions.
Then you'll call be an idiot again probably.
You even manage to lose arguments with yourself!
So we have established that no deal is not no deal. It is a little bit of a deal. A dealette, perhaps.
And we would presumably have to negotiate this dealette. And what would happen in the meantime while we were negotiating it? Perhaps a transition period secured by a withdrawal agreement, predicated on an NI backstop?
The Irish border...just don't build one. Neither Britain, Northern Ireland or Ireland want it.
I agree, but it's not me you need to persuade. If you want a smooth transition - which, unless you are a complete loon, you do - you've got to persuade the EU.
It's not the EU Richard. The EU, RoI, NI, GB don't want a hard border. But it would be out of their hands in a no-deal, WTO scenario. That is what none of those actors can risk.
So why not a deal which includes an RoI component and voila, out of the clutches of the WTO? Well that is precisely the point of the WA and the backstop.
There really is no other option and it is disingenuous of you to lay the blame at the EU's door.
I was being helpful to Xenon - even if the Irish border isn't an issue in reality, it's still an obstacle in the negotiations if the EU think it's an issue. I was challenging the ridiculous idea that we can unilaterally go for some mythical 'no deal' which somehow includes doing a deal with the EU (apparently without bothering to get their consent) on lots and lots of issues - 500+ pages worth, as we know.
It wouldn't be unilateral, that's the whole point. We should have stopped asking for the trade deal which was the main problem in the negotiations (because they wouldn't give it to us without a load of unacceptable stuff) in order to get a cleaner break. It's not rocket science.
The reason the EU is playing hardball over the Irish border is because we want a trade deal so they have lots of leverage. They could make a deal with us about that without all the other crap if we're just looking for a clean exit with no "cherry picking".
So we're leaving the EU because we want to be able to agree trade deals around the world but we don't want a trade deal with the EU?
You really are totally stupid but here goes.
We want a trade deal with the EU, but they won't give it to us without unreasonable conditions attached, so regrettably we would have to forgo this for the moment in order to get a clean break.
Is this simple enough for you to understand yet?
Xenon - he's a dense rare gas!
I am really enjoying some of the insults this afternoon. They are showing some real flair and intelligence.
I think that actually far from being thick they were more likely the sort of highly intelligent, zero common sense people you precisely don't want on a jury.
I think we need more openness as far as juries are concerned, like they have in the United States. It's far too secret at the moment. Once the trial is over, jurors ought to be able to talk about how and why they reached their decisions, if they choose to do so.
ISTR the Jeremy Thorpe case is the reason why English juries are put under an omertà.
We want to avoid going down the American route.
I find the whole concept of DAs attacking the accused the moment they charged.
I find that hard to reconcile with good jurisprudence.
Nothing compared to the outrage that is plea bargaining.
I think there's a lot wrong with the US justice system. Plea-bargaining is certainly at the top of the list. If I was offered a choice between pleading not guilty, and being raped for the next 20 years if found guilty, or pleading guilty and getting 5 years in a country club prison, of course I'd go for the latter, even if I was innocent.
Right I can predict the next few messages between us.
I'll say WTO and then you'll say "aha idiot WTO involves a hard border in Northern Ireland".
And I'll say yes but we could agree a RoI component. Then you'll say that's not no deal then is it?
And I'll say no of course not, no deal was never about not agreeing to anything with the EU, but an agreement would have been quite straight forward without us demanding favourable trade deals which they were determined not to give us without unacceptable conditions.
Then you'll call be an idiot again probably.
You even manage to lose arguments with yourself!
So we have established that no deal is not no deal. It is a little bit of a deal. A dealette, perhaps.
And we would presumably have to negotiate this dealette. And what would happen in the meantime while we were negotiating it? Perhaps a transition period secured by a withdrawal agreement, predicated on an NI backstop?
"UPDATED: The leader of Sweden's Centre Party, Annie Lööf, on Thursday announced she was abandoning her bid to try to break Sweden's political deadlock after a week of cross-party talks.
Lööf's meeting with parliamentary speaker Andreas Norlén lasted an hour longer than expected, but she confirmed she had been unable to find support for a workable government and added that she did not see any possibility of leading a minority government herself."
Right I can predict the next few messages between us.
I'll say WTO and then you'll say "aha idiot WTO involves a hard border in Northern Ireland".
And I'll say yes but we could agree a RoI component. Then you'll say that's not no deal then is it?
And I'll say no of course not, no deal was never about not agreeing to anything with the EU, but an agreement would have been quite straight forward without us demanding favourable trade deals which they were determined not to give us without unacceptable conditions.
Then you'll call be an idiot again probably.
You even manage to lose arguments with yourself!
So we have established that no deal is not no deal. It is a little bit of a deal. A dealette, perhaps.
And we would presumably have to negotiate this dealette. And what would happen in the meantime while we were negotiating it? Perhaps a transition period secured by a withdrawal agreement, predicated on an NI backstop?
Did you see my post yesterday morning in response to our exchange of views the previous day on Grammar Schools. Don't want it wasted as I woke up in the middle of the night (I want to say it dawned on me) with those thoughts.
"UPDATED: The leader of Sweden's Centre Party, Annie Lööf, on Thursday announced she was abandoning her bid to try to break Sweden's political deadlock after a week of cross-party talks.
Lööf's meeting with parliamentary speaker Andreas Norlén lasted an hour longer than expected, but she confirmed she had been unable to find support for a workable government and added that she did not see any possibility of leading a minority government herself."
"UPDATED: The leader of Sweden's Centre Party, Annie Lööf, on Thursday announced she was abandoning her bid to try to break Sweden's political deadlock after a week of cross-party talks.
Lööf's meeting with parliamentary speaker Andreas Norlén lasted an hour longer than expected, but she confirmed she had been unable to find support for a workable government and added that she did not see any possibility of leading a minority government herself."
I was genuine in my comment. Both your and Logical's replies to Xenon (nothing against you Xenon, you just happened to be the target) showed a bit of class rather than the more usual 'twat', 'idiot' or 'moron' (my personal failing) that we seem to get on here. I see nothing wrong in insulting people as long as it is done with style.
"UPDATED: The leader of Sweden's Centre Party, Annie Lööf, on Thursday announced she was abandoning her bid to try to break Sweden's political deadlock after a week of cross-party talks.
Lööf's meeting with parliamentary speaker Andreas Norlén lasted an hour longer than expected, but she confirmed she had been unable to find support for a workable government and added that she did not see any possibility of leading a minority government herself."
Interestingly the coalition now favourite is "any other" - not sure that makes sense personally at 3/1, it would have to be pretty damn random not to be listed.
I was genuine in my comment. Both your and Logical's replies to Xenon (nothing against you Xenon, you just happened to be the target) showed a bit of class rather than the more usual 'twat', 'idiot' or 'moron' (my personal failing) that we seem to get on here. I see nothing wrong in insulting people as long as it is done with style.
I am going to try to take a leaf out of your book.
Unless it's @SeanT. Who is a twat, an idiot, and a moron.
Did you see my post yesterday morning in response to our exchange of views the previous day on Grammar Schools. Don't want it wasted as I woke up in the middle of the night (I want to say it dawned on me) with those thoughts.
I didn't sorry. I will go back and take a look. There is so much rattling through these pages that I only tend to look at the latest 100 comments on the current page when I drop on.
I was genuine in my comment. Both your and Logical's replies to Xenon (nothing against you Xenon, you just happened to be the target) showed a bit of class rather than the more usual 'twat', 'idiot' or 'moron' (my personal failing) that we seem to get on here. I see nothing wrong in insulting people as long as it is done with style.
Indeed, I used to take your (occasional) insults as a badge of honour, in my former lives.
Did you see my post yesterday morning in response to our exchange of views the previous day on Grammar Schools. Don't want it wasted as I woke up in the middle of the night (I want to say it dawned on me) with those thoughts.
I didn't sorry. I will go back and take a look. There is so much rattling through these pages that I only tend to look at the latest 100 comments on the current page when I drop on.
Thanks for the reply old chap. I think my short answer to your point - which I do take on board - is that what we ended up with by abandoning most of the Grammar schools was actually a situation where, because the Comprehensives are so poor at what they do - or did -we may well have missed dozens or hundreds of Kazuo Ishiguros who were failed by the education system and never fulfilled their potential. I only have to look in my own family at close members who were completely failed by the educational system because it was only interested in those who showed real potential whilst everyone else was left behind.
Now of course we seem to have gone from everyone's a loser, to everyone's a winner. Which is just as bad.
We want a trade deal with the EU, but they won't give it to us without unreasonable conditions attached, so regrettably we would have to forgo this for the moment in order to get a clean break.
"for the moment" is key to that. Much of the EU's stance at the moment is built around forcing the UK into a situation where it does not leave, and as such the EU are only willing to offer terms that are demonstrably worse than what the UK has now with the aim of either dissuading us or otherwise locking us permanently into BINO. After April, once the UK has left, that bluff will have failed and the negotiations could be reset on a rational basis of mutual interest. The Eurocrats might still wish to be seen to punish the UK for our temerity, but the lobbying of corporate business interests would I think temper that instinct.
"UPDATED: The leader of Sweden's Centre Party, Annie Lööf, on Thursday announced she was abandoning her bid to try to break Sweden's political deadlock after a week of cross-party talks.
Lööf's meeting with parliamentary speaker Andreas Norlén lasted an hour longer than expected, but she confirmed she had been unable to find support for a workable government and added that she did not see any possibility of leading a minority government herself."
Who in their right mind would think £280 was ever the price for an electric toothbrush? They might as well have Dr. Evil pronounce that the price has been slashed from "one billion dollars....."
Social Democrat leader Stefan Löfven. Photo: Anders Wiklund / TT The leader of Sweden's Social Democrats, Stefan Löfven, will be proposed as the country's next prime minister in an effort to break the ongoing political deadlock. Parliamentary speaker Andreas Norlén made the announcement on Friday morning.
He said Löfven would be formally nominated on Monday, December 3rd, giving Löfven ten days to talk to other party leaders and try to gather support for a government. After that, the vote must take place within four days, which means it would happen before parliament votes on its budget on December 12th.
...
Löfven is likely to gain the support of his own party and coalition partners the Green Party and Left Party, but would not be supported by a majority unless one or more of the centre-right Centre Party, Moderates or Christian Democrats, or the far-right Sweden Democrats, also vote for the proposal or abstain.
Who in their right mind would think £280 was ever the price for an electric toothbrush? They might as well have Dr. Evil pronounce that the price has been slashed from "one billion dollars....."
True. I have no intention on spending £70 on a toothbrush, come to that. I was however, so surprised that £280 could ever be the price of a toothbrush that I was motivated to check elsewhere. Looks and smells like bullshit to ramp up the "% off" number and sucker you into buying it.
So at the end of the week - the PM has seen an uptake in the sympathy vote stakes from the average voters but she has no chance of getting her deal through a vote in parly because it's a turd. Meanwhile Labour are still crap and the LDs have disappeared.
So at the end of the week - the PM has seen an uptake in the sympathy vote stakes from the average voters but she has no chance of getting her deal through a vote in parly because it's a turd. Meanwhile Labour are still crap and the LDs have disappeared.
So at the end of the week - the PM has seen an uptake in the sympathy vote stakes from the average voters but she has no chance of getting her deal through a vote in parly because it's a turd. Meanwhile Labour are still crap and the LDs have disappeared.
So at the end of the week - the PM has seen an uptake in the sympathy vote stakes from the average voters but she has no chance of getting her deal through a vote in parly because it's a turd. Meanwhile Labour are still crap and the LDs have disappeared.
About right ?
You missed out UKIP going full-on fascist. Otherwise, bang on.
"UPDATED: The leader of Sweden's Centre Party, Annie Lööf, on Thursday announced she was abandoning her bid to try to break Sweden's political deadlock after a week of cross-party talks.
Lööf's meeting with parliamentary speaker Andreas Norlén lasted an hour longer than expected, but she confirmed she had been unable to find support for a workable government and added that she did not see any possibility of leading a minority government herself."
So at the end of the week - the PM has seen an uptake in the sympathy vote stakes from the average voters but she has no chance of getting her deal through a vote in parly because it's a turd. Meanwhile Labour are still crap and the LDs have disappeared.
So at the end of the week - the PM has seen an uptake in the sympathy vote stakes from the average voters but she has no chance of getting her deal through a vote in parly because it's a turd. Meanwhile Labour are still crap and the LDs have disappeared.
About right ?
Oh, and the Moggster's star seems to have disappeared in a supernova - but without generating either heat or light.
So at the end of the week - the PM has seen an uptake in the sympathy vote stakes from the average voters but she has no chance of getting her deal through a vote in parly because it's a turd. Meanwhile Labour are still crap and the LDs have disappeared.
About right ?
Oh, and the Moggster's star seems to have disappeared in a supernova - but without generating either heat or light.
I listened to his podcast with Delingpole from about 2 weeks ago and he specifically seemed to rule out doing anything rash before the vote - I wonder what changed his mind to make such a strategically crap mistake ?
Although, having looked at that, it is actually cheaper than it's ever been before.
I looked at a couple of tv's early. Both claimed to have 40% off (or something like that). One was basically the same as your toothbrush example, as small amount of its usual retail price and the other was genuinely 40% off the usual price.
The judge in Fiona Onasanya’s trial at the Old Bailey has told the jury that he will accept a majority verdict"
I wonder what part of "obviously lying through her teeth*" the jury are having trouble with.
* In my personal opinion.
a barrister friend of mine was involved in a case where the judge basically led for the prosecution. When the jury came back in, his first words to them were "What took you so long?"
I looked at a couple of tv's early. Both claimed to have 40% off (or something like that). One was basically the same as your toothbrush example, as small amount of its usual retail price and the other was genuinely 40% off the usual price.
Although, having looked at that, it is actually cheaper than it's ever been before.
Am I being cynical to think a lot of stuff will actually drop in price after we get through black Friday and cyber Monday?
Like all these things, some things are genuine bargains / good offers e.g. Amazon new Fire Stick Tv 4k, I am pretty sure it will be back up to £50-60 post this sale period, but other stuff they will price at whatever it will take to shift it.
My understanding is things like games consoles are normally at their lowest price of the year during Black Friday and rarely repeated at other times.
As it is Black Friday, public service announcement. For those that don’t know camelcamelcamel is a great website for tracking historical prices on amazon so you can check if it really is a good deal or not.
I looked at a couple of tv's early. Both claimed to have 40% off (or something like that). One was basically the same as your toothbrush example, as small amount of its usual retail price and the other was genuinely 40% off the usual price.
As it is Black Friday, public service announcement. For those that don’t know camelcamelcamel is a great website for tracking historical prices on amazon so you can check if it really is a good deal or not.
Does camelcamelcamel only cover Amazon?
Yes, Amazon and third party sellers on Amazon. However, with that combined data that is pretty good indicator of the "real" market value of an item.
So at the end of the week - the PM has seen an uptake in the sympathy vote stakes from the average voters but she has no chance of getting her deal through a vote in parly because it's a turd. Meanwhile Labour are still crap and the LDs have disappeared.
About right ?
Oh, and the Moggster's star seems to have disappeared in a supernova - but without generating either heat or light.
Also, someone laid £10K on the BF table for Boris as leader at 9.
Although, having looked at that, it is actually cheaper than it's ever been before.
Am I being cynical to think a lot of stuff will actually drop in price after we get through black Friday and cyber Monday?
Like all these things, some things are genuine bargains / good offers e.g. Amazon new Fire Stick Tv 4k, I am pretty sure it will be back up to £50-60 post this sale period, but other stuff they will price at whatever it will take to shift it.
My understanding is things like games consoles are normally at their lowest price of the year during Black Friday and rarely repeated at other times.
Ok thanks. Looking for a non-contract iPhone SE to replace Mrs. P's old iPhone 5C. Refurbished doesn't sound like a good idea but there's a huge range of prices for a phone that is basically end of life.
Did you see my post yesterday morning in response to our exchange of views the previous day on Grammar Schools. Don't want it wasted as I woke up in the middle of the night (I want to say it dawned on me) with those thoughts.
I didn't sorry. I will go back and take a look. There is so much rattling through these pages that I only tend to look at the latest 100 comments on the current page when I drop on.
Did you see my post yesterday morning in response to our exchange of views the previous day on Grammar Schools. Don't want it wasted as I woke up in the middle of the night (I want to say it dawned on me) with those thoughts.
I didn't sorry. I will go back and take a look. There is so much rattling through these pages that I only tend to look at the latest 100 comments on the current page when I drop on.
Thanks for the reply old chap. I think my short answer to your point - which I do take on board - is that what we ended up with by abandoning most of the Grammar schools was actually a situation where, because the Comprehensives are so poor at what they do - or did -we may well have missed dozens or hundreds of Kazuo Ishiguros who were failed by the education system and never fulfilled their potential. I only have to look in my own family at close members who were completely failed by the educational system because it was only interested in those who showed real potential whilst everyone else was left behind.
Now of course we seem to have gone from everyone's a loser, to everyone's a winner. Which is just as bad.
Certainly agree with your last paragraph.
If you are going to name drop the one I have is not bad, although if I'm honest I have very little memory of him and worst still his A levels were almost certainly not as good as mine, yet I'm pretty sure I'll have quite a wait for my Nobel prize.
Comments
So we have established that no deal is not no deal. It is a little bit of a deal. A dealette, perhaps.
And we would presumably have to negotiate this dealette. And what would happen in the meantime while we were negotiating it? Perhaps a transition period secured by a withdrawal agreement, predicated on an NI backstop?
Lööf's meeting with parliamentary speaker Andreas Norlén lasted an hour longer than expected, but she confirmed she had been unable to find support for a workable government and added that she did not see any possibility of leading a minority government herself."
https://www.thelocal.se/20181122/swedish-centre-party-leader-annie-loof-result-government-talks
Did you see my post yesterday morning in response to our exchange of views the previous day on Grammar Schools. Don't want it wasted as I woke up in the middle of the night (I want to say it dawned on me) with those thoughts.
I made more on that than every other bet this year combined.
Interestingly the coalition now favourite is "any other" - not sure that makes sense personally at 3/1, it would have to be pretty damn random not to be listed.
(Market is void if no government before next GE)
Unless it's @SeanT. Who is a twat, an idiot, and a moron.
Electric toothbrushes, since you didn't ask.
EDIT: I mean look at this bullshit. Check out the "RRP" on these pages. One is £150, the other is £280. Both now on sale at £70 (give or take)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Oral-B-CrossAction-Toothbrush-Rechargeable-Connected/dp/B01DY36HU6
https://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/oral-b-genius-8000-toothbrush-2
Now of course we seem to have gone from everyone's a loser, to everyone's a winner. Which is just as bad.
Social Democrat leader Stefan Löfven. Photo: Anders Wiklund / TT
The leader of Sweden's Social Democrats, Stefan Löfven, will be proposed as the country's next prime minister in an effort to break the ongoing political deadlock.
Parliamentary speaker Andreas Norlén made the announcement on Friday morning.
He said Löfven would be formally nominated on Monday, December 3rd, giving Löfven ten days to talk to other party leaders and try to gather support for a government. After that, the vote must take place within four days, which means it would happen before parliament votes on its budget on December 12th.
...
Löfven is likely to gain the support of his own party and coalition partners the Green Party and Left Party, but would not be supported by a majority unless one or more of the centre-right Centre Party, Moderates or Christian Democrats, or the far-right Sweden Democrats, also vote for the proposal or abstain.
https://www.thelocal.se/20181123/what-next-for-sweden-as-political-deadlock-drags-on
About right ?
@Hannahjourno
4m4 minutes ago
The judge in Fiona Onasanya’s trial at the Old Bailey has told the jury that he will accept a majority verdict"
https://uk.camelcamelcamel.com/Oral-B-Electric-Rechargeable-Toothbrush-Powered/product/B01DY36HU6
* In my personal opinion.
Although, having looked at that, it is actually cheaper than it's ever been before.
My understanding is things like games consoles are normally at their lowest price of the year during Black Friday and rarely repeated at other times.
A word of caution though, there will undoubtedly be some principled Brexiteers out there who will settle for nothing less than a peerage.
If you are going to name drop the one I have is not bad, although if I'm honest I have very little memory of him and worst still his A levels were almost certainly not as good as mine, yet I'm pretty sure I'll have quite a wait for my Nobel prize.