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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    For those of us who have been commenting on pb.com since near the beginning it is sobering to realise that the age of this site (14 years and 7 months) is nearly half the age of the Guardian/ICM series (29 years and 9 months).

    It is quite worrying to think I put my first comment on this site eleven and a half years ago.

    I'm teaching children who weren't born then.
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    Charles said:

    ‪90% of voters supported the cash boost to the NHS, 86% thought it a good idea to increase the living wage and 84% agreed with the increase in the personal allowance to £12,500 next year. Freezing the duty on beer, cider and spirits was supported by 48% of those asked.‬

    People like more spending and lower taxes

    People like money

    Colour me shocked
    The most popular tax is one that other people pay, everyone agrees they are fair
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    Another aspect is to remind us all that when it comes to Europe, Conservative politicians just haven't been very good at politics. From the beginning, and especially since Cameron's bizarre decision to leave the main conservative group in the European Parliament, they have behaved like the nutter on the bus. If you want to get the most out of Europe you need to study it, understand it and frame your approach and strategy on the basis of what it is actually like.

    We all know negative people who spend all their time moaning and blaming everyone and everything else for their problems. That's the image we have projected in Europe. It's little wonder that we don't have any friends there.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Tony said:

    ydoethur said:

    A Labour councillor who tried to smuggle drugs into a music festival has resigned as a councillor having already left his cabinet post.

    Ishmael Osamor, 29, had pleaded guilty to having £2,500-worth of drugs, at last year's Bestival event in Dorset.

    I'm still amazed the judge accepted that was all for his personal use and that of a couple of friends.
    Something very odd with this judgement, caught with 30g of ecstasy, that's nearly 300 single doses. Wtf.
    A rave a week for the next 3 years for you and a friend ?
    I hadn't realised until I read about that case that the whole intent to supply thing is actually intent to supply and make a profit.

    Personally I think he should have gone to prison unless he'd provided information that led the authorities to a "proper" dealer.

    MPs’ kids get treated differently. Many years ago a friend of mine was bottled in the face in a club by the very drunk son of a Tory MP, now deceased. I was flown back from Madrid by the Met to be a witness in the case. On the first day of the trial, the young man submitted a guilty plea and ended up getting 25 hours community service - or whatever that was called in the 1980s.

    Don’t you mean rich people’s children? Sounds to me as though Daddy paid for a decent barrister who advised admission and throwing himself on the mercy of the Court.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778

    HYUFD said:

    Osborne says Brexit was won by an alliance of the 'insecure' low paid and the 'insulated' retired

    Well, many Brexiteers on here are neither.

    I wonder if Osborne appreciates the irony that he himself helped to ‘insulate’ the retired with his policies.
    Osborne states it as if somehow the less well off should nt have the right to vote
    He seems to have failed to understand the 'values' and 'community' arguments of the likes of Matthew Goodwin, as to why voters are not always being economically rational. Perhaps he just chooses to ignore it, or perhaps he can't see it.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Looks like the fourth Reich is going to have to wait only 1 in 3 german tanks is working

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/nur-jeder-dritte-neue-panzer-der-bundeswehr-ist-einsatzbereit-15866260.html

    I would say that's normal for any complex bit of military kit. How many of its 450 Challenger IIs do you think the British Army has available for ops right now? Hint: it's nowhere near 150.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    Another aspect is to remind us all that when it comes to Europe, Conservative politicians just haven't been very good at politics. From the beginning, and especially since Cameron's bizarre decision to leave the main conservative group in the European Parliament, they have behaved like the nutter on the bus. If you want to get the most out of Europe you need to study it, understand it and frame your approach and strategy on the basis of what it is actually like.

    We all know negative people who spend all their time moaning and blaming everyone and everything else for their problems. That's the image we have projected in Europe. It's little wonder that we don't have any friends there.
    really ?

    Ive spent years listening to how great our "influence" in the EU, was, ae you saying it was all bollocks ?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Dura_Ace said:

    Looks like the fourth Reich is going to have to wait only 1 in 3 german tanks is working

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/nur-jeder-dritte-neue-panzer-der-bundeswehr-ist-einsatzbereit-15866260.html

    I would say that's normal for any complex bit of military kit. How many of its 450 Challenger IIs do you think the British Army has available for ops right now? Hint: it's nowhere near 150.
    this is for the new Puma straight off the production line.

    at an outside guess Id say they should work better than a tank manufactured 20 years ago
  • tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Tony said:

    ydoethur said:

    A Labour councillor who tried to smuggle drugs into a music festival has resigned as a councillor having already left his cabinet post.

    Ishmael Osamor, 29, had pleaded guilty to having £2,500-worth of drugs, at last year's Bestival event in Dorset.

    I'm still amazed the judge accepted that was all for his personal use and that of a couple of friends.
    Something very odd with this judgement, caught with 30g of ecstasy, that's nearly 300 single doses. Wtf.
    A rave a week for the next 3 years for you and a friend ?
    I hadn't realised until I read about that case that the whole intent to supply thing is actually intent to supply and make a profit.

    Personally I think he should have gone to prison unless he'd provided information that led the authorities to a "proper" dealer.

    MPs’ kids get treated differently. Many years ago a friend of mine was bottled in the face in a club by the very drunk son of a Tory MP, now deceased. I was flown back from Madrid by the Met to be a witness in the case. On the first day of the trial, the young man submitted a guilty plea and ended up getting 25 hours community service - or whatever that was called in the 1980s.

    Don’t you mean rich people’s children? Sounds to me as though Daddy paid for a decent barrister who advised admission and throwing himself on the mercy of the Court.

    The character references the defence submitted seemed to be quite helpful. I remember my friend being outraged, understandably so - he was cut very close to his eye. Rather selfishly, I was very pleased. I got a free ticket home and did not have to testify!

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Good morning, everyone.

    Alas, even the longest, the most glittering reign must come to an end someday. I don't envy British political pollsters their work.

    Mr. Brooke, maybe we had great influence when we agreed with the EU line, and were a 'nutter on a bus' when we didn't? :p
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    But that was always likely to happen the instant de facto control of the talks was ceded by the Council to the Commission.

    Framing it as a power grab doesn't make sense given that the EU27 leaders have consistently resisted any attempt to go behind Barnier's back.
    Indeed, the EU27 have maintained unity behind Barnier that contrasts sharply with our own cabinet, who seem to be unable to agree anything at all.

    Witless incompetence is the hallmark of this government.

    https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1057271466314612736?s=19
    I wouldn’t fall for the spin too completely.

    There are certainly splits behind the scenes in the EU27. The fact they feel they have to publicly pronounce their absolute unity so frequently to the media is a clue.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    HYUFD said:

    Osborne says Brexit was won by an alliance of the 'insecure' low paid and the 'insulated' retired

    Well, many Brexiteers on here are neither.

    I wonder if Osborne appreciates the irony that he himself helped to ‘insulate’ the retired with his policies.
    Osborne states it as if somehow the less well off should nt have the right to vote
    He strategically miscalculated, and it ended his political career.

    That’s politics, I’m afraid. You can’t always game the electorate.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    HYUFD said:

    Osborne says Brexit was won by an alliance of the 'insecure' low paid and the 'insulated' retired

    Well, many Brexiteers on here are neither.

    I wonder if Osborne appreciates the irony that he himself helped to ‘insulate’ the retired with his policies.
    Osborne states it as if somehow the less well off should nt have the right to vote
    He strategically miscalculated, and it ended his political career.

    That’s politics, I’m afraid. You can’t always game the electorate.
    We should have dissolved the people and elected another?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Dura_Ace said:

    Looks like the fourth Reich is going to have to wait only 1 in 3 german tanks is working

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/nur-jeder-dritte-neue-panzer-der-bundeswehr-ist-einsatzbereit-15866260.html

    I would say that's normal for any complex bit of military kit. How many of its 450 Challenger IIs do you think the British Army has available for ops right now? Hint: it's nowhere near 150.
    I'm sure that's right. I remember we had to strip every tank in Germany to make sure that those we sent to the Gulf could actually move. Spare parts seem to be the first saving made which is of course utterly bizarre.

    How many of our fighters are typically operational?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    HYUFD said:

    Osborne says Brexit was won by an alliance of the 'insecure' low paid and the 'insulated' retired

    Well, many Brexiteers on here are neither.

    I wonder if Osborne appreciates the irony that he himself helped to ‘insulate’ the retired with his policies.
    Osborne states it as if somehow the less well off should nt have the right to vote
    He strategically miscalculated, and it ended his political career.

    That’s politics, I’m afraid. You can’t always game the electorate.
    hes the bitter and twisted Captain Darling to Camerons Lt George
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778

    HYUFD said:

    Osborne says Brexit was won by an alliance of the 'insecure' low paid and the 'insulated' retired

    Well, many Brexiteers on here are neither.

    I wonder if Osborne appreciates the irony that he himself helped to ‘insulate’ the retired with his policies.
    Osborne states it as if somehow the less well off should nt have the right to vote
    He strategically miscalculated, and it ended his political career.

    That’s politics, I’m afraid. You can’t always game the electorate.
    Did he? He reportedly told Cameron it was 'crazy' to have a referendum.

    He was proved right.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    HYUFD said:

    Osborne says Brexit was won by an alliance of the 'insecure' low paid and the 'insulated' retired

    Well, many Brexiteers on here are neither.

    I wonder if Osborne appreciates the irony that he himself helped to ‘insulate’ the retired with his policies.
    Osborne states it as if somehow the less well off should nt have the right to vote
    He strategically miscalculated, and it ended his political career.

    That’s politics, I’m afraid. You can’t always game the electorate.
    Did he? He reportedly told Cameron it was 'crazy' to have a referendum.

    He was proved right.
    I was referring to his strategy for the campaign.

    I agree that Osborne (had he been PM) would never have offered a referendum.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    Another aspect is to remind us all that when it comes to Europe, Conservative politicians just haven't been very good at politics. From the beginning, and especially since Cameron's bizarre decision to leave the main conservative group in the European Parliament, they have behaved like the nutter on the bus. If you want to get the most out of Europe you need to study it, understand it and frame your approach and strategy on the basis of what it is actually like.

    We all know negative people who spend all their time moaning and blaming everyone and everything else for their problems. That's the image we have projected in Europe. It's little wonder that we don't have any friends there.
    really ?

    Ive spent years listening to how great our "influence" in the EU, was, ae you saying it was all bollocks ?
    We do pretty well at the day to day stuff - regulations and the like. I was specifically speaking about Conservative Party politicians who just aren't very good at representing our country in Europe. But I can't comment on who you have been listening to.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    HYUFD said:

    Osborne says Brexit was won by an alliance of the 'insecure' low paid and the 'insulated' retired

    Well, many Brexiteers on here are neither.

    I wonder if Osborne appreciates the irony that he himself helped to ‘insulate’ the retired with his policies.
    Osborne states it as if somehow the less well off should nt have the right to vote
    He seems to have failed to understand the 'values' and 'community' arguments of the likes of Matthew Goodwin, as to why voters are not always being economically rational. Perhaps he just chooses to ignore it, or perhaps he can't see it.
    If Osborne had existed in the political climate of the 1990s, he’d have been right.

    Unfortunately for him, values, identity and mass immigration are going to be more important in politics over the next few decades, not less.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    So the EU acknowledges it was a mistake which could blow up the deal (and which the U.K. was wrong to accept). But they are not going to walk back from it
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    HYUFD said:

    Osborne says Brexit was won by an alliance of the 'insecure' low paid and the 'insulated' retired

    Well, many Brexiteers on here are neither.

    I wonder if Osborne appreciates the irony that he himself helped to ‘insulate’ the retired with his policies.
    Osborne states it as if somehow the less well off should nt have the right to vote
    He seems to have failed to understand the 'values' and 'community' arguments of the likes of Matthew Goodwin, as to why voters are not always being economically rational. Perhaps he just chooses to ignore it, or perhaps he can't see it.
    If Osborne had existed in the political climate of the 1990s, he’d have been right.

    Unfortunately for him, values, identity and mass immigration are going to be more important in politics over the next few decades, not less.
    Does anyone see Osborne ever going back into politics?

    I must confess, I can't. I think he's burned too many bridges with the Conservatives to get another seat.

    My guess would be he'll run the Standard for a few more years and then go back to being Chairman of the family business - which will allow him to paper over far more cracks than he ever did as Chancellor!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    I miss George Osborne. He is clever, witty, more than slightly cynical and with a good understanding of how government worked. May would be a vastly better PM (as was Cameron) with someone like that organising her government for her and ensuring that everyone is on the same page. Mandelson did a very similar job for Brown when he was brought back and praise doesn't come much higher than that.

    Of course he made mistakes, who doesn't, but politics in this country is the poorer for his absence and indeed the absence of Balls.

    *ducks*
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,537

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    Another aspect is to remind us all that when it comes to Europe, Conservative politicians just haven't been very good at politics. From the beginning, and especially since Cameron's bizarre decision to leave the main conservative group in the European Parliament, they have behaved like the nutter on the bus. If you want to get the most out of Europe you need to study it, understand it and frame your approach and strategy on the basis of what it is actually like.

    We all know negative people who spend all their time moaning and blaming everyone and everything else for their problems. That's the image we have projected in Europe. It's little wonder that we don't have any friends there.
    really ?

    Ive spent years listening to how great our "influence" in the EU, was, ae you saying it was all bollocks ?
    I think there's always been a good deal of goodwill towards us - Europeans simply like the Brits, by and large. But Recidivist is right that we've never used that very effectively - not so much the nutter on the bus as the loveable but irritating brother who means well but has no real idea of it being a family.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Tony said:

    ydoethur said:

    A Labour councillor who tried to smuggle drugs into a music festival has resigned as a councillor having already left his cabinet post.

    Ishmael Osamor, 29, had pleaded guilty to having £2,500-worth of drugs, at last year's Bestival event in Dorset.

    I'm still amazed the judge accepted that was all for his personal use and that of a couple of friends.
    Something very odd with this judgement, caught with 30g of ecstasy, that's nearly 300 single doses. Wtf.
    A rave a week for the next 3 years for you and a friend ?
    I hadn't realised until I read about that case that the whole intent to supply thing is actually intent to supply and make a profit.

    Personally I think he should have gone to prison unless he'd provided information that led the authorities to a "proper" dealer.
    I think the prosecution and judge missed something obvious.
    Why on earth would you take your entire supply to a festival with the increased risk of getting it stolen or caught and not leave say 280 pills at home; and perhaps just take 20.
    You could lead into it by asking first whether all the pills were purchased at the festival
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    DavidL said:

    I miss George Osborne. He is clever, witty, more than slightly cynical and with a good understanding of how government worked. May would be a vastly better PM (as was Cameron) with someone like that organising her government for her and ensuring that everyone is on the same page. Mandelson did a very similar job for Brown when he was brought back and praise doesn't come much higher than that.

    Of course he made mistakes, who doesn't, but politics in this country is the poorer for his absence and indeed the absence of Balls.

    *ducks*

    We have plenty of Cocks still in politics, even if we are shorn of Balls.

    Is this a eunuch situation?
  • Charles said:

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    So the EU acknowledges it was a mistake which could blow up the deal (and which the U.K. was wrong to accept). But they are not going to walk back from it

    Stubborn refusal to face the facts is a dangerous thing. See, also, Brexit.

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    DavidL said:



    How many of our fighters are typically operational?

    94/144 Typhoons in the forward fleet. When you take away F2, QRA , OCU and inop jets you've probably got 20-30 FGR4 available for Middle Eastern japes.

    Tornado GR4: 8-12/80. Only a very small proportion of the GR4 fleet is deployable due to efficiency savings.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Tony said:

    ydoethur said:

    A Labour councillor who tried to smuggle drugs into a music festival has resigned as a councillor having already left his cabinet post.

    Ishmael Osamor, 29, had pleaded guilty to having £2,500-worth of drugs, at last year's Bestival event in Dorset.

    I'm still amazed the judge accepted that was all for his personal use and that of a couple of friends.
    Something very odd with this judgement, caught with 30g of ecstasy, that's nearly 300 single doses. Wtf.
    A rave a week for the next 3 years for you and a friend ?
    I hadn't realised until I read about that case that the whole intent to supply thing is actually intent to supply and make a profit.

    Personally I think he should have gone to prison unless he'd provided information that led the authorities to a "proper" dealer.
    I think the prosecution and judge missed something obvious.
    Why on earth would you take your entire supply to a festival with the increased risk of getting it stolen or caught and not leave say 280 pills at home; and perhaps just take 20.
    You could lead into it by asking first whether all the pills were purchased at the festival
    Quite, its not just the quantity, its where they were. He was extremely fortunate.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    Another aspect is to remind us all that when it comes to Europe, Conservative politicians just haven't been very good at politics. From the beginning, and especially since Cameron's bizarre decision to leave the main conservative group in the European Parliament, they have behaved like the nutter on the bus. If you want to get the most out of Europe you need to study it, understand it and frame your approach and strategy on the basis of what it is actually like.

    We all know negative people who spend all their time moaning and blaming everyone and everything else for their problems. That's the image we have projected in Europe. It's little wonder that we don't have any friends there.
    really ?

    Ive spent years listening to how great our "influence" in the EU, was, ae you saying it was all bollocks ?
    I think there's always been a good deal of goodwill towards us - Europeans simply like the Brits, by and large. But Recidivist is right that we've never used that very effectively - not so much the nutter on the bus as the loveable but irritating brother who means well but has no real idea of it being a family.
    Don’t know what you view a family as being like but we get to act independently and do our own thing collaborating where it makes sense
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    So the EU acknowledges it was a mistake which could blow up the deal (and which the U.K. was wrong to accept). But they are not going to walk back from it

    Stubborn refusal to face the facts is a dangerous thing. See, also, Brexit.

    If the “facts” are that we can’t in practice leave then we are no longer independent
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    So the EU acknowledges it was a mistake which could blow up the deal (and which the U.K. was wrong to accept). But they are not going to walk back from it

    Stubborn refusal to face the facts is a dangerous thing. See, also, Brexit.

    If the “facts” are that we can’t in practice leave then we are no longer independent

    We are leaving. What we can’t do is leave without substantially damaging our economy and reducing our global relevance and influence. But voters knew this apparently.

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    So the EU acknowledges it was a mistake which could blow up the deal (and which the U.K. was wrong to accept). But they are not going to walk back from it

    Stubborn refusal to face the facts is a dangerous thing. See, also, Brexit.

    If the “facts” are that we can’t in practice leave then we are no longer independent
    Of course we can leave. We can land a man on the moon if we want. We just have to do the hard work of actually planning how we are going to do it. And we then need to make the resources and time available.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    Another aspect is to remind us all that when it comes to Europe, Conservative politicians just haven't been very good at politics. From the beginning, and especially since Cameron's bizarre decision to leave the main conservative group in the European Parliament, they have behaved like the nutter on the bus. If you want to get the most out of Europe you need to study it, understand it and frame your approach and strategy on the basis of what it is actually like.

    We all know negative people who spend all their time moaning and blaming everyone and everything else for their problems. That's the image we have projected in Europe. It's little wonder that we don't have any friends there.
    really ?

    Ive spent years listening to how great our "influence" in the EU, was, ae you saying it was all bollocks ?
    I think there's always been a good deal of goodwill towards us - Europeans simply like the Brits, by and large. But Recidivist is right that we've never used that very effectively - not so much the nutter on the bus as the loveable but irritating brother who means well but has no real idea of it being a family.
    They like a certain type of Brit: the respectful, polite and well-mannered kind.

    They don’t like the lager louts and stag dos so much, even if occasionally they can find some of them (in moderation) amusing.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    I miss George Osborne. He is clever, witty, more than slightly cynical and with a good understanding of how government worked. May would be a vastly better PM (as was Cameron) with someone like that organising her government for her and ensuring that everyone is on the same page. Mandelson did a very similar job for Brown when he was brought back and praise doesn't come much higher than that.

    Of course he made mistakes, who doesn't, but politics in this country is the poorer for his absence and indeed the absence of Balls.

    *ducks*

    We have plenty of Cocks still in politics, even if we are shorn of Balls.

    Is this a eunuch situation?
    What we don't have is people who understand how to run a government. The result is a perception of chaos and a lack of coordination as Ministers do their own thing.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    So the EU acknowledges it was a mistake which could blow up the deal (and which the U.K. was wrong to accept). But they are not going to walk back from it

    Stubborn refusal to face the facts is a dangerous thing. See, also, Brexit.

    If the “facts” are that we can’t in practice leave then we are no longer independent
    So you want to leave all other bodies like NATO which undermine our independence?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:



    How many of our fighters are typically operational?

    94/144 Typhoons in the forward fleet. When you take away F2, QRA , OCU and inop jets you've probably got 20-30 FGR4 available for Middle Eastern japes.

    Tornado GR4: 8-12/80. Only a very small proportion of the GR4 fleet is deployable due to efficiency savings.
    I feared as much. That's really appalling and must have significant knock on effects in the number of hours pilots get, ground crew get, etc etc. You'd like to think that the £1bn bunged to defence would focus on this but I doubt it. It's not glamorous enough for our Defence Secretary.
  • Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    Another aspect is to remind us all that when it comes to Europe, Conservative politicians just haven't been very good at politics. From the beginning, and especially since Cameron's bizarre decision to leave the main conservative group in the European Parliament, they have behaved like the nutter on the bus. If you want to get the most out of Europe you need to study it, understand it and frame your approach and strategy on the basis of what it is actually like.

    We all know negative people who spend all their time moaning and blaming everyone and everything else for their problems. That's the image we have projected in Europe. It's little wonder that we don't have any friends there.
    really ?

    Ive spent years listening to how great our "influence" in the EU, was, ae you saying it was all bollocks ?
    I think there's always been a good deal of goodwill towards us - Europeans simply like the Brits, by and large. But Recidivist is right that we've never used that very effectively - not so much the nutter on the bus as the loveable but irritating brother who means well but has no real idea of it being a family.
    They like a certain type of Brit: the respectful, polite and well-mannered kind.

    They don’t like the lager louts and stag dos so much, even if occasionally they can find some of them (in moderation) amusing.

    Just like most of us then!

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,537
    Another example of Labour doing better when they get coverage that isn't about an internal quarrel, even if it's in the context of the Government doing something popular. It's why a snap election would again be a risk for the Tories.

    On the Budget itself, I think that prioritising the higher rate tax cut is absolutely outrageous, but that's an activist's view (and McDonnell is unfortunately probably reading it right politically in not opposing it, grrr). That said, I think people won't have a lasting impression either way - the "meh" 17-13 balance on "Will it help you?" says it all.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    In military kit news, the Russians recently made a valiant attempt to sink their only aircraft carrier, and succeeded in sinking a dry dock.

    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/10/russias-only-aircraft-carrier-damaged-as-its-floating-dry-dock-sinks/
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752
    R
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    So the EU acknowledges it was a mistake which could blow up the deal (and which the U.K. was wrong to accept). But they are not going to walk back from it

    Stubborn refusal to face the facts is a dangerous thing. See, also, Brexit.

    If the “facts” are that we can’t in practice leave then we are no longer independent
    There is no true independence without autarky, which is no longer possible at our national level.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    HYUFD said:

    Osborne says Brexit was won by an alliance of the 'insecure' low paid and the 'insulated' retired

    Well, many Brexiteers on here are neither.

    I wonder if Osborne appreciates the irony that he himself helped to ‘insulate’ the retired with his policies.
    Osborne states it as if somehow the less well off should nt have the right to vote
    He strategically miscalculated, and it ended his political career.

    That’s politics, I’m afraid. You can’t always game the electorate.
    hes the bitter and twisted Captain Darling to Camerons Lt George
    I doubt Osborne's career is over
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    So the EU acknowledges it was a mistake which could blow up the deal (and which the U.K. was wrong to accept). But they are not going to walk back from it

    Stubborn refusal to face the facts is a dangerous thing. See, also, Brexit.

    If the “facts” are that we can’t in practice leave then we are no longer independent

    We are leaving. What we can’t do is leave without substantially damaging our economy and reducing our global relevance and influence. But voters knew this apparently.

    I’m not going to debate Brexit - we have different views

    But the article states that a withdrawal deal acceptable to both sides is not possible

    That’s not a partnership of independent nations - if we have to break down the door to get out.

    I blame our politicians who tied us in that deeply without getting approval from the people notvthe EU particularly
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    So the EU acknowledges it was a mistake which could blow up the deal (and which the U.K. was wrong to accept). But they are not going to walk back from it

    Stubborn refusal to face the facts is a dangerous thing. See, also, Brexit.

    If the “facts” are that we can’t in practice leave then we are no longer independent
    So you want to leave all other bodies like NATO which undermine our independence?
    ** Strawman alert **

    No.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Jessop, be fair. The pilot was distracted by a magnificent nearby cathedral spire.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited October 2018
    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:
    Doesn't sound great for Dems, but the key figure I wanted was how early voting this time compares to early voting previously.
    The article says that early absentee voting normally favours the Republicans. Early in person voting, which is due to start shortly in Florida, is more usually tilted towards the Democrats.

    I'm not sure how much we read into this, frankly. Absentee ballots are likely to be from the most committed party members. That said, the reported very sharp increase in them seems odd.

    What we can say is that if the only gubernatorial gain the Dems have is Nevada they will have had a truly dreadful result.
    Absentee ballots mainly come from the military and the retired and obviously favour Republicans and it would be absurd to read anything into the figures. Early voting almost always is misleading in terms of the ultimate outcome anyway, you may as well toss a coin
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,630
    edited October 2018
    DavidL said:

    I miss George Osborne. He is clever, witty, more than slightly cynical and with a good understanding of how government worked. May would be a vastly better PM (as was Cameron) with someone like that organising her government for her and ensuring that everyone is on the same page. Mandelson did a very similar job for Brown when he was brought back and praise doesn't come much higher than that.

    Of course he made mistakes, who doesn't, but politics in this country is the poorer for his absence and indeed the absence of Balls.

    *ducks*

    He was also the Shadow Chancellor who failed to predict the biggest recession in generations - thus showing an incredible inability to think outside his comfort zone.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778

    Another example of Labour doing better when they get coverage that isn't about an internal quarrel, even if it's in the context of the Government doing something popular. It's why a snap election would again be a risk for the Tories.

    On the Budget itself, I think that prioritising the higher rate tax cut is absolutely outrageous, but that's an activist's view (and McDonnell is unfortunately probably reading it right politically in not opposing it, grrr). That said, I think people won't have a lasting impression either way - the "meh" 17-13 balance on "Will it help you?" says it all.
    Is this any different to normal.

    A big fuss is made by pols and journos about Budget, which is fair enough, as major part of government ritual, but for most voters the end results are usually tiny or neutral. I doubt many people can remember a thing about it by end of this week.

  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    So the EU acknowledges it was a mistake which could blow up the deal (and which the U.K. was wrong to accept). But they are not going to walk back from it

    Stubborn refusal to face the facts is a dangerous thing. See, also, Brexit.

    If the “facts” are that we can’t in practice leave then we are no longer independent

    We are leaving. What we can’t do is leave without substantially damaging our economy and reducing our global relevance and influence. But voters knew this apparently.

    I’m not going to debate Brexit - we have different views

    But the article states that a withdrawal deal acceptable to both sides is not possible

    That’s not a partnership of independent nations - if we have to break down the door to get out.

    I blame our politicians who tied us in that deeply without getting approval from the people notvthe EU particularly

    We never had the negotiating leverage to get any deal the EU27 did not want to give us. Politicians who claimed otherwise have got us to where we are today.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    DavidL said:

    I miss George Osborne. He is clever, witty, more than slightly cynical and with a good understanding of how government worked. May would be a vastly better PM (as was Cameron) with someone like that organising her government for her and ensuring that everyone is on the same page. Mandelson did a very similar job for Brown when he was brought back and praise doesn't come much higher than that.

    Of course he made mistakes, who doesn't, but politics in this country is the poorer for his absence and indeed the absence of Balls.

    *ducks*


    I think Balls has done much more thinking on the reasons behind Brexit than Osborne, actually.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    Another aspect is to remind us all that when it comes to Europe, Conservative politicians just haven't been very good at politics. From the beginning, and especially since Cameron's bizarre decision to leave the main conservative group in the European Parliament, they have behaved like the nutter on the bus. If you want to get the most out of Europe you need to study it, understand it and frame your approach and strategy on the basis of what it is actually like.

    We all know negative people who spend all their time moaning and blaming everyone and everything else for their problems. That's the image we have projected in Europe. It's little wonder that we don't have any friends there.
    really ?

    Ive spent years listening to how great our "influence" in the EU, was, ae you saying it was all bollocks ?
    I think there's always been a good deal of goodwill towards us - Europeans simply like the Brits, by and large. But Recidivist is right that we've never used that very effectively - not so much the nutter on the bus as the loveable but irritating brother who means well but has no real idea of it being a family.
    They like a certain type of Brit: the respectful, polite and well-mannered kind.

    They don’t like the lager louts and stag dos so much, even if occasionally they can find some of them (in moderation) amusing.
    Another way of putting that is that you get on best if you are respectful, polite and well-mannered. That certainly does work with Europeans, but it goes down well with other Brits as well. You might even draw the conclusion that those guys over the channel are pretty much like us for most intents and purposes and we'll all do better working together.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    edited October 2018

    DavidL said:

    I miss George Osborne. He is clever, witty, more than slightly cynical and with a good understanding of how government worked. May would be a vastly better PM (as was Cameron) with someone like that organising her government for her and ensuring that everyone is on the same page. Mandelson did a very similar job for Brown when he was brought back and praise doesn't come much higher than that.

    Of course he made mistakes, who doesn't, but politics in this country is the poorer for his absence and indeed the absence of Balls.

    *ducks*

    He's also the Shadow Chancellor who failed to predict the biggest recession in generations - thus showing an incredible inability to think outside his comfort zone.
    The number of people who predicted the chaos of the GFC was so small they made a truly superb film about them, one of my all time favourites. We had a budget this week which forecast low but steady growth for another 5 years. Did you take that seriously? I mean, really?
  • German retail sales in September 2.6% lower than in September 2017:

    https://www.destatis.de/EN/PressServices/Press/pr/2018/10/PE18_419_45212.html;jsessionid=6F42B8EB11EA5F8BBCF4DC0F29DD769E.InternetLive2

    By comparison UK retail sales are 3% higher than a year ago.

    I wonder how many German retail chains are going out of business.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Charles said:

    But the article states that a withdrawal deal acceptable to both sides is not possible

    That’s not a partnership of independent nations - if we have to break down the door to get out.

    People outside the club don't get as good a deal as people inside the club.

    Brexiteers still unable to grasp the simplest concept...
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    So the EU acknowledges it was a mistake which could blow up the deal (and which the U.K. was wrong to accept). But they are not going to walk back from it

    Stubborn refusal to face the facts is a dangerous thing. See, also, Brexit.

    If the “facts” are that we can’t in practice leave then we are no longer independent

    We are leaving. What we can’t do is leave without substantially damaging our economy and reducing our global relevance and influence. But voters knew this apparently.

    I’m not going to debate Brexit - we have different views

    But the article states that a withdrawal deal acceptable to both sides is not possible

    That’s not a partnership of independent nations - if we have to break down the door to get out.

    I blame our politicians who tied us in that deeply without getting approval from the people notvthe EU particularly
    If there is no mutually acceptable deal, one side or the other (or both) has unrealistic expectations when they decided what was acceptable. I blame both sides but especially the nutty Leavers who set their expectations with no regard to reality and then became angry when they stumbled across it.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:



    How many of our fighters are typically operational?

    94/144 Typhoons in the forward fleet. When you take away F2, QRA , OCU and inop jets you've probably got 20-30 FGR4 available for Middle Eastern japes.

    Tornado GR4: 8-12/80. Only a very small proportion of the GR4 fleet is deployable due to efficiency savings.
    I feared as much. That's really appalling and must have significant knock on effects in the number of hours pilots get, ground crew get, etc etc. You'd like to think that the £1bn bunged to defence would focus on this but I doubt it. It's not glamorous enough for our Defence Secretary.
    The Typhoon fleet is in comparatively rude health because we've just scrapped 16 two seaters which has generated a wealth of components.

    The GR4's problems relate to the marathon Kandahar roulements when only a very small number of jets got the comms and countermeasure fit to make them deployable. It only cost 1m quid/day for 7 years but the Afghan people are very grateful.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    ydoethur said:

    For those who are interested, David Axelrod gives his predictions here:

    I’ve always thought that Democrats will take the House back. I’ve always thought that 30 seats would be a good showing. On the average, the party out of power wins 32 seats. Given everything—all of the sort of structural obstacles because of redistricting—30 seats would be an accomplishment. I still think they’re going to land in that zone, and I don’t think it’s likely to go much higher. I think the Senate—I’ve said from the beginning that if Democrats could hold the margin at 51-49, given the historic obstacles they face, that would be an accomplishment. It may be that Republicans add a seat or two.

    There are a couple of other storylines I’d watch on election night. One is governorships. I think Democrats are going to take a significant number of statehouses, which is not inconsequential going into both the presidential election and redistricting. So, you look at states—including Florida and a crescent from Kansas to Iowa across the Midwest all the way to Pennsylvania—and I think Democrats are going to make some significant gains in governorships. And the last part of that storyline is, when you consider the states that delivered the presidency to Trump—Florida, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, Pennsylvania—you’ve got incumbent Democratic senators up in all of those states. I think it’s more likely than not that every one of those senators is going to be reelected, and that you’re going to see governorship[s] shift in several of those states.
    So, I think that should be a sobering result for the White House and for Republicans, and it has some augurings for 2020.


    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/10/30/david-axelrod-2020-democratic-candidates-trump-harris-gillibrand-bernie-castro-patrick-221951

    Sounds a good prediction from Axelrod, I took expect the Democrats to take the House gaining about 25 to 35 seats and a number of state legislatures and governorships but the Republicans to hold the Senate and even make a net gain there given most Senate seats up are Democratic held including in normally GOP states like North Dakota, Indiana and Missouri which even Romney won.

    The end result for Trump's midterms ie his party losing the House but holding the Senate will be similar to Obama's first midterms in 2010 (although the Democrats may gain less seats in the House even if tgey have the same popular vote lead as the GOP did then)
  • German retail sales in September 2.6% lower than in September 2017:

    https://www.destatis.de/EN/PressServices/Press/pr/2018/10/PE18_419_45212.html;jsessionid=6F42B8EB11EA5F8BBCF4DC0F29DD769E.InternetLive2

    By comparison UK retail sales are 3% higher than a year ago.

    I wonder how many German retail chains are going out of business.

    I wonder what German credit card debt looks like, compared to ours. We are storing up all the usual problems again.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Observer, what would you say to those who suggest any lack of leverage is because it was consistently signed away by governing parties (even when a referendum had been promised, and subsequently not held)?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:
    Doesn't sound great for Dems, but the key figure I wanted was how early voting this time compares to early voting previously.
    The article says that early absentee voting normally favours the Republicans. Early in person voting, which is due to start shortly in Florida, is more usually tilted towards the Democrats.

    I'm not sure how much we read into this, frankly. Absentee ballots are likely to be from the most committed party members. That said, the reported very sharp increase in them seems odd.

    What we can say is that if the only gubernatorial gain the Dems have is Nevada they will have had a truly dreadful result.
    No doubt 538 will provide us with an analysis in the next 24 hours or so.
    My gut (FWIW, which probably isn't much) is that it's overall positive for the Democrats, but not massively so.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    Another aspect is to remind us all that when it comes to Europe, Conservative politicians just haven't been very good at politics. From the beginning, and especially since Cameron's bizarre decision to leave the main conservative group in the European Parliament, they have behaved like the nutter on the bus. If you want to get the most out of Europe you need to study it, understand it and frame your approach and strategy on the basis of what it is actually like.

    We all know negative people who spend all their time moaning and blaming everyone and everything else for their problems. That's the image we have projected in Europe. It's little wonder that we don't have any friends there.
    really ?

    Ive spent years listening to how great our "influence" in the EU, was, ae you saying it was all bollocks ?
    I think there's always been a good deal of goodwill towards us - Europeans simply like the Brits, by and large. But Recidivist is right that we've never used that very effectively - not so much the nutter on the bus as the loveable but irritating brother who means well but has no real idea of it being a family.
    They like a certain type of Brit: the respectful, polite and well-mannered kind.

    They don’t like the lager louts and stag dos so much, even if occasionally they can find some of them (in moderation) amusing.
    Another way of putting that is that you get on best if you are respectful, polite and well-mannered. That certainly does work with Europeans, but it goes down well with other Brits as well. You might even draw the conclusion that those guys over the channel are pretty much like us for most intents and purposes and we'll all do better working together.
    Respect and good manners are internationally appreciated (and key in diplomacy) but I do think Europeans like the apologetic, reserved and gracious “classic” British gentlemen. The type they see in period dramas and romcom films.

    That goes down very well in more macho cultures, or in those where the men don’t make quite as much effort, or behave with a bit more arrogant.

    In Poland, the women are virtually all jaw-droppingly beautiful. You can basically clean up.
  • Mr. Observer, what would you say to those who suggest any lack of leverage is because it was consistently signed away by governing parties (even when a referendum had been promised, and subsequently not held)?

    I’d say that is irrelevant to the Brexit negotiation process, though it may have been relevant to the vote. Our position in 2016 was known to everyone.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778
    DavidL said:

    I miss George Osborne. He is clever, witty, more than slightly cynical and with a good understanding of how government worked. May would be a vastly better PM (as was Cameron) with someone like that organising her government for her and ensuring that everyone is on the same page. Mandelson did a very similar job for Brown when he was brought back and praise doesn't come much higher than that.

    Of course he made mistakes, who doesn't, but politics in this country is the poorer for his absence and indeed the absence of Balls.

    *ducks*

    I certainly agree about Ed Balls, especially when you look at the shower that occupy the shadow front bench these days.

    I guess that's democracy though.

    I doubt he will come back.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    German retail sales in September 2.6% lower than in September 2017:

    https://www.destatis.de/EN/PressServices/Press/pr/2018/10/PE18_419_45212.html;jsessionid=6F42B8EB11EA5F8BBCF4DC0F29DD769E.InternetLive2

    By comparison UK retail sales are 3% higher than a year ago.

    I wonder how many German retail chains are going out of business.

    There are serious warning signs all over the EZ at the moment. A competent central bank would be rethinking their wind down of QE at this point and wondering how to improve liquidity instead of tightening it. But the EZ has the ECB, politically deaf and dominated by Germans and German thinking. I fear the worst.

    The risk of a recession in the EZ is one of the main reasons that 5 years steady growth in the budget here seemed optimistic.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    So the EU acknowledges it was a mistake which could blow up the deal (and which the U.K. was wrong to accept). But they are not going to walk back from it

    Stubborn refusal to face the facts is a dangerous thing. See, also, Brexit.

    If the “facts” are that we can’t in practice leave then we are no longer independent
    So you want to leave all other bodies like NATO which undermine our independence?
    No, he doesn’t. And it doesn’t.

    Virtually no Brexiteers do. It’s hilarious how many Remainers persist with this line of “argument”.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited October 2018

    HYUFD said:

    Osborne also says the Tories did not win in 2017 by trying to 'outUKIP UKIP' and will not win in 2022 by trying to 'outCorbyn Corbyn' and needs to be fiscally conservative but socially progressive.


    Though he says there is a problem of returns to capital being more than returns to income, solved by expanding home ownership and increasing pensions and the minimum wage

    I think Osborne’s view is that it’s hopeless to think you can control immigration numbers, which are economically beneficial anyway, and madness to try. Further, that European integration is inevitable and that the UK must play a strong role right at the heart of that club.

    Whilst I respect that point of view it’s pretty clear he’d have offered no answers to the electorate on either of those two questions and just regrets he didn’t put out better spin.

    As I’ve said before he’s a blue Blairite, the only difference being he believes in slightly lower taxes.
    Osborne is certainly closer to Mandelson than Rees Mogg just as Mandelson is closer to Osborne than Corbyn.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778

    DavidL said:

    I miss George Osborne. He is clever, witty, more than slightly cynical and with a good understanding of how government worked. May would be a vastly better PM (as was Cameron) with someone like that organising her government for her and ensuring that everyone is on the same page. Mandelson did a very similar job for Brown when he was brought back and praise doesn't come much higher than that.

    Of course he made mistakes, who doesn't, but politics in this country is the poorer for his absence and indeed the absence of Balls.

    *ducks*

    He was also the Shadow Chancellor who failed to predict the biggest recession in generations - thus showing an incredible inability to think outside his comfort zone.
    Did the Queen once ask why nobody had predicted it?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    Charles said:

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    So the EU acknowledges it was a mistake which could blow up the deal (and which the U.K. was wrong to accept). But they are not going to walk back from it

    Yes, what’s particularly interesting about that article is how Ireland’s much lauded influence is purely because it decided to align itself wholesale with the EU and put itself in the vanguard of the single market.

    Had it take a different view over NI, the EU would have given it short shrift.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    HYUFD said:

    Osborne says Brexit was won by an alliance of the 'insecure' low paid and the 'insulated' retired

    Well, many Brexiteers on here are neither.

    I wonder if Osborne appreciates the irony that he himself helped to ‘insulate’ the retired with his policies.
    Osborne states it as if somehow the less well off should nt have the right to vote
    Not quite, as he points out the Tories won a number of lower middle class and working class seats like Nuneaton in 2015
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    DavidL said:

    I miss George Osborne. He is clever, witty, more than slightly cynical and with a good understanding of how government worked. May would be a vastly better PM (as was Cameron) with someone like that organising her government for her and ensuring that everyone is on the same page. Mandelson did a very similar job for Brown when he was brought back and praise doesn't come much higher than that.

    Of course he made mistakes, who doesn't, but politics in this country is the poorer for his absence and indeed the absence of Balls.

    *ducks*

    He seemed like a good no. 2.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    Another aspect is to remind us all that when it comes to Europe, Conservative politicians just haven't been very good at politics. From the beginning, and especially since Cameron's bizarre decision to leave the main conservative group in the European Parliament, they have behaved like the nutter on the bus. If you want to get the most out of Europe you need to study it, understand it and frame your approach and strategy on the basis of what it is actually like.

    We all know negative people who spend all their time moaning and blaming everyone and everything else for their problems. That's the image we have projected in Europe. It's little wonder that we don't have any friends there.
    really ?

    Ive spent years listening to how great our "influence" in the EU, was, ae you saying it was all bollocks ?
    I think there's always been a good deal of goodwill towards us - Europeans simply like the Brits, by and large. But Recidivist is right that we've never used that very effectively - not so much the nutter on the bus as the loveable but irritating brother who means well but has no real idea of it being a family.
    They like a certain type of Brit: the respectful, polite and well-mannered kind.

    They don’t like the lager louts and stag dos so much, even if occasionally they can find some of them (in moderation) amusing.
    Another way of putting that is that you get on best if you are respectful, polite and well-mannered. That certainly does work with Europeans, but it goes down well with other Brits as well. You might even draw the conclusion that those guys over the channel are pretty much like us for most intents and purposes and we'll all do better working together.
    Respect and good manners are internationally appreciated (and key in diplomacy) but I do think Europeans like the apologetic, reserved and gracious “classic” British gentlemen. The type they see in period dramas and romcom films.

    That goes down very well in more macho cultures, or in those where the men don’t make quite as much effort, or behave with a bit more arrogant.

    In Poland, the women are virtually all jaw-droppingly beautiful. You can basically clean up.
    *books flight to Poland*
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    DavidL said:

    I miss George Osborne. He is clever, witty, more than slightly cynical and with a good understanding of how government worked. May would be a vastly better PM (as was Cameron) with someone like that organising her government for her and ensuring that everyone is on the same page. Mandelson did a very similar job for Brown when he was brought back and praise doesn't come much higher than that.

    Of course he made mistakes, who doesn't, but politics in this country is the poorer for his absence and indeed the absence of Balls.

    *ducks*

    He was also the Shadow Chancellor who failed to predict the biggest recession in generations - thus showing an incredible inability to think outside his comfort zone.
    Did the Queen once ask why nobody had predicted it?
    Allegedly yes and it was an astute question. I personally think that the answer lies in computer modelling of the economy. These have so many data points that there is an inbuilt assumption that most things remain the same giving a stability to the model we do not find in the real world. Just like the model that the OBR gave to the Chancellor on Monday.
  • Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    Another aspect is to remind us all that when it comes to Europe, Conservative politicians just haven't been very good at politics. From the beginning, and especially since Cameron's bizarre decision to leave the main conservative group in the European Parliament, they have behaved like the nutter on the bus. If you want to get the most out of Europe you need to study it, understand it and frame your approach and strategy on the basis of what it is actually like.

    We all know negative people who spend all their time moaning and blaming everyone and everything else for their problems. That's the image we have projected in Europe. It's little wonder that we don't have any friends there.
    really ?

    Ive spent years listening to how great our "influence" in the EU, was, ae you saying it was all bollocks ?
    I think there's always been a good deal of goodwill towards us - Europeans simply like the Brits, by and large. But Recidivist is right that we've never used that very effectively - not so much the nutter on the bus as the loveable but irritating brother who means well but has no real idea of it being a family.
    They like a certain type of Brit: the respectful, polite and well-mannered kind.

    They don’t like the lager louts and stag dos so much, even if occasionally they can find some of them (in moderation) amusing.
    Another way of putting that is that you get on best if you are respectful, polite and well-mannered. That certainly does work with Europeans, but it goes down well with other Brits as well. You might even draw the conclusion that those guys over the channel are pretty much like us for most intents and purposes and we'll all do better working together.
    Respect and good manners are internationally appreciated (and key in diplomacy) but I do think Europeans like the apologetic, reserved and gracious “classic” British gentlemen. The type they see in period dramas and romcom films.

    That goes down very well in more macho cultures, or in those where the men don’t make quite as much effort, or behave with a bit more arrogant.

    In Poland, the women are virtually all jaw-droppingly beautiful. You can basically clean up.

    My experience is that Europeans like many different kinds of Brit, as exemplified by the wide variety of us that do very well across the Channel - in all kinds of fields. They don’t like drunken, loud yobs or ignorant fools, but who does?

  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,621
    edited October 2018

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    So the EU acknowledges it was a mistake which could blow up the deal (and which the U.K. was wrong to accept). But they are not going to walk back from it

    Stubborn refusal to face the facts is a dangerous thing. See, also, Brexit.

    If the “facts” are that we can’t in practice leave then we are no longer independent
    So you want to leave all other bodies like NATO which undermine our independence?
    No, he doesn’t. And it doesn’t.

    Virtually no Brexiteers do. It’s hilarious how many Remainers persist with this line of “argument”.
    It shows the inconsistency in the Brexiteers argument. But Brexiteers can't answer it so they try to airily brush it away.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    I miss George Osborne. He is clever, witty, more than slightly cynical and with a good understanding of how government worked. May would be a vastly better PM (as was Cameron) with someone like that organising her government for her and ensuring that everyone is on the same page. Mandelson did a very similar job for Brown when he was brought back and praise doesn't come much higher than that.

    Of course he made mistakes, who doesn't, but politics in this country is the poorer for his absence and indeed the absence of Balls.

    *ducks*

    He seemed like a good no. 2.
    Wonderfully ambiguous!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    HYUFD said:

    Osborne says Brexit was won by an alliance of the 'insecure' low paid and the 'insulated' retired

    Well, many Brexiteers on here are neither.

    I wonder if Osborne appreciates the irony that he himself helped to ‘insulate’ the retired with his policies.
    Osborne states it as if somehow the less well off should nt have the right to vote
    He strategically miscalculated, and it ended his political career.

    That’s politics, I’m afraid. You can’t always game the electorate.
    Did he? He reportedly told Cameron it was 'crazy' to have a referendum.

    He was proved right.
    I was referring to his strategy for the campaign.

    I agree that Osborne (had he been PM) would never have offered a referendum.
    And wouldn't have won a majority in 2015 then been deposed for a hang 'em and flog 'em type.
  • kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    I miss George Osborne. He is clever, witty, more than slightly cynical and with a good understanding of how government worked. May would be a vastly better PM (as was Cameron) with someone like that organising her government for her and ensuring that everyone is on the same page. Mandelson did a very similar job for Brown when he was brought back and praise doesn't come much higher than that.

    Of course he made mistakes, who doesn't, but politics in this country is the poorer for his absence and indeed the absence of Balls.

    *ducks*

    He seemed like a good no. 2.

    Yep, definitely a number 2!

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Observer, au contraire. If your only options are the nuclear one or resigning oneself to being a doormat, it makes the nuclear option far more reasonable.

    Had previous concerns been listened to, and promises kept, people would've had faith they might amend the situation in the future. I suspect that for a lot of people, they felt this was the only chance they were ever going to get, and a Remain result would be used by the more federalist supporters as a green light for increasing the rate of integration.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Mr. Observer, what would you say to those who suggest any lack of leverage is because it was consistently signed away by governing parties (even when a referendum had been promised, and subsequently not held)?

    What is it about the Lisbon settlement that has reduced the UK's influence in the EU?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,537



    They like a certain type of Brit: the respectful, polite and well-mannered kind.

    They don’t like the lager louts and stag dos so much, even if occasionally they can find some of them (in moderation) amusing.

    Another way of putting that is that you get on best if you are respectful, polite and well-mannered. That certainly does work with Europeans, but it goes down well with other Brits as well. You might even draw the conclusion that those guys over the channel are pretty much like us for most intents and purposes and we'll all do better working together.
    Exactly. Boris was particularly bad at the FS job because he was neither well-mannered nor respectful (in the sense of bothering to do homework on who he was talking to). Hunt is OK in that respect, and Thornberry would be too, even though they've both made the occasional slip.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    edited October 2018
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    I miss George Osborne. He is clever, witty, more than slightly cynical and with a good understanding of how government worked. May would be a vastly better PM (as was Cameron) with someone like that organising her government for her and ensuring that everyone is on the same page. Mandelson did a very similar job for Brown when he was brought back and praise doesn't come much higher than that.

    Of course he made mistakes, who doesn't, but politics in this country is the poorer for his absence and indeed the absence of Balls.

    *ducks*

    He seemed like a good no. 2.
    Wonderfully ambiguous!
    Heartily sincere, I assure you. Was he a good chancellor and mp? I don't know, but I was a fan of the coalition so I guess he did ok. But he did appear at least to be a good fit with and supporter of his leader.

    Wheras we know what brown and Blair were like and apparently Hammond would have been sacked but for the GE result.
  • German retail sales in September 2.6% lower than in September 2017:

    https://www.destatis.de/EN/PressServices/Press/pr/2018/10/PE18_419_45212.html;jsessionid=6F42B8EB11EA5F8BBCF4DC0F29DD769E.InternetLive2

    By comparison UK retail sales are 3% higher than a year ago.

    I wonder how many German retail chains are going out of business.

    I wonder what German credit card debt looks like, compared to ours. We are storing up all the usual problems again.

    We certainly over-consume as a country.

    But you don't find many people, and even fewer politicians, who want to spend less.

    Its a major reason why I think we need a low exchange rate for Sterling - we will have to be forced to live within our means.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871



    They like a certain type of Brit: the respectful, polite and well-mannered kind.

    They don’t like the lager louts and stag dos so much, even if occasionally they can find some of them (in moderation) amusing.

    Another way of putting that is that you get on best if you are respectful, polite and well-mannered. That certainly does work with Europeans, but it goes down well with other Brits as well. You might even draw the conclusion that those guys over the channel are pretty much like us for most intents and purposes and we'll all do better working together.
    Exactly. Boris was particularly bad at the FS job because he was neither well-mannered nor respectful (in the sense of bothering to do homework on who he was talking to). Hunt is OK in that respect, and Thornberry would be too, even though they've both made the occasional slip.
    Whenever you listen to PMQs there's Thornberry's loud incessant heckling - her behaviour in the House is not much better than Balls's
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    Another aspect is to remind us all that when it comes to oaning and blaming everyone and everything else for their problems. That's the image we have projected in Europe. It's little wonder that we don't have any friends there.
    really ?

    Ive spent years listening to how great our "influence" in the EU, was, ae you saying it was all bollocks ?
    I think there's always been a good deal of goodwill towards us - Europeans simply like the Brits, by and large. But Recidivist is right that we've never used that very effectively - not so much the nutter on the bus as the loveable but irritating brother who means well but has no real idea of it being a family.
    They like a certain type of Brit: the respectful, polite and well-mannered kind.

    They don’t like the lager louts and stag dos so much, even if occasionally they can find some of them (in moderation) amusing.
    Another way of putting that is that you get on best if you are respectful, polite and well-mannered. That certainly does work with Europeans, but it goes down well with other Brits as well. You might even draw the conclusion that those guys over the channel are pretty much like us for most intents and purposes and we'll all do better working together.
    Respect and good manners are internationally appreciated (and key in diplomacy) but I do think Europeans like the apologetic, reserved and gracious “classic” British gentlemen. The type they see in period dramas and romcom films.

    That goes down very well in more macho cultures, or in those where the men don’t make quite as much effort, or behave with a bit more arrogant.

    In Poland, the women are virtually all jaw-droppingly beautiful. You can basically clean up.

    My experience is that Europeans like many different kinds of Brit, as exemplified by the wide variety of us that do very well across the Channel - in all kinds of fields. They don’t like drunken, loud yobs or ignorant fools, but who does?

    Mind you anyone who has been to Oktoberfest or a football match on the continent knows they are not completely immune from drunken, loud yobs either and I expect European elites consider Front National, AfD, Lega Nord voters who 'ignorant fools' as well
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,537
    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Looks like the fourth Reich is going to have to wait only 1 in 3 german tanks is working

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/nur-jeder-dritte-neue-panzer-der-bundeswehr-ist-einsatzbereit-15866260.html

    I would say that's normal for any complex bit of military kit. How many of its 450 Challenger IIs do you think the British Army has available for ops right now? Hint: it's nowhere near 150.
    I'm sure that's right. I remember we had to strip every tank in Germany to make sure that those we sent to the Gulf could actually move. Spare parts seem to be the first saving made which is of course utterly bizarre.

    How many of our fighters are typically operational?
    It's said that in WW2 the Germans handicapped their armour by constantly trying to improve it and having numerous different models, sophisticated for their time, with incompatible spare parts which kept breaking down. The Soviets had a small number of not very distinguished types which they produced in huge numbers, and in battlefield conditions that worked better than having the latest gizmos.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:
    Doesn't sound great for Dems, but the key figure I wanted was how early voting this time compares to early voting previously.
    The article says that early absentee voting normally favours the Republicans. Early in person voting, which is due to start shortly in Florida, is more usually tilted towards the Democrats.

    I'm not sure how much we read into this, frankly. Absentee ballots are likely to be from the most committed party members. That said, the reported very sharp increase in them seems odd.

    What we can say is that if the only gubernatorial gain the Dems have is Nevada they will have had a truly dreadful result.
    No doubt 538 will provide us with an analysis in the next 24 hours or so.
    My gut (FWIW, which probably isn't much) is that it's overall positive for the Democrats, but not massively so.
    They did a podcast where Nate Silver says that early voting data is essentially useless.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    kle4 said:

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    Another aspect is to remind us all that when it comes to Europe, Conservative politicians just haven't been very good at politics. From the beginning, and especially since Cameron's bizarre decision to leave the main conservative group in the European Parliament, they have behaved like the nutter on the bus. If you want to get the most out of Europe you need to study it, understand it and frame your approach and strategy on the basis of what it is actually like.

    We all know negative people who spend all their time moaning and blaming everyone and everything else for their problems. That's the image we have projected in Europe. It's little wonder that we don't have any friends there.
    really ?

    Ive spent years listening to how great our "influence" in the EU, was, ae you saying it was all bollocks ?
    I think there's always been a good deal of goodwill towards us - Europeans simply like the Brits, by and large. But Recidivist is right that we've never used that very effectively - not so much the nutter on the bus as the loveable but irritating brother who means well but has no real idea of it being a family.
    They like a certain type of Brit: the respectful, polite and well-mannered kind.

    They don’t like the lager louts and stag dos so much, even if occasionally they can find some of them (in moderation) amusing.
    Another way of putting that is that you get on best if you are respectful, polite and well-mannered. That certainly does work with Europeans, but it goes down well with other Brits as well. You might even draw the conclusion that those guys over the channel are pretty much like us for most intents and purposes and we'll all do better working together.
    Respect and good manners are internationally appreciated (and key in diplomacy) but I do think Europeans like the apologetic, reserved and gracious “classic” British gentlemen. The type they see in period dramas and romcom films.

    That goes down very well in more macho cultures, or in those where the men don’t make quite as much effort, or behave with a bit more arrogant.

    In Poland, the women are virtually all jaw-droppingly beautiful. You can basically clean up.
    *books flight to Poland*
    A single, I take it?

    Make it two...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited October 2018



    They like a certain type of Brit: the respectful, polite and well-mannered kind.

    They don’t like the lager louts and stag dos so much, even if occasionally they can find some of them (in moderation) amusing.

    Another way of putting that is that you get on best if you are respectful, polite and well-mannered. That certainly does work with Europeans, but it goes down well with other Brits as well. You might even draw the conclusion that those guys over the channel are pretty much like us for most intents and purposes and we'll all do better working together.
    Exactly. Boris was particularly bad at the FS job because he was neither well-mannered nor respectful (in the sense of bothering to do homework on who he was talking to). Hunt is OK in that respect, and Thornberry would be too, even though they've both made the occasional slip.
    To be fair to Boris he never got half our European Ambassadors writing tweets complaining about him as Hunt did after his 'EU prison' Tory conference speech. Nor has he insulted those who fly the England flag like Thornberry
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    I miss George Osborne. He is clever, witty, more than slightly cynical and with a good understanding of how government worked. May would be a vastly better PM (as was Cameron) with someone like that organising her government for her and ensuring that everyone is on the same page. Mandelson did a very similar job for Brown when he was brought back and praise doesn't come much higher than that.

    Of course he made mistakes, who doesn't, but politics in this country is the poorer for his absence and indeed the absence of Balls.

    *ducks*

    He seemed like a good no. 2.
    Wonderfully ambiguous!
    Heartily sincere, I assure you. Was he a good chancellor and mp? I don't know, but I was a fan of the coalition so I guess he did ok. But he did appear at least to be a good fit with and supporter of his leader.

    Wheras we know what brown and Blair were like and apparently Hammond would have been sacked but for the GE result.
    I think he sacrificed his future by being the iron fist inside Cameron's velvet glove. He made a lot of enemies as a result, not least with the former Home Secretary. Whether he did this because he was a team player or had the insight to realise that he was unlikely to be PM himself so this was the most power he could have is hard to tell but it certainly worked well for the country.

    More generally, I think it needs a like minded team to run a government. Not having such a team is one of May's many weaknesses.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:
    Doesn't sound great for Dems, but the key figure I wanted was how early voting this time compares to early voting previously.
    The article says that early absentee voting normally favours the Republicans. Early in person voting, which is due to start shortly in Florida, is more usually tilted towards the Democrats.

    I'm not sure how much we read into this, frankly. Absentee ballots are likely to be from the most committed party members. That said, the reported very sharp increase in them seems odd.

    What we can say is that if the only gubernatorial gain the Dems have is Nevada they will have had a truly dreadful result.
    No doubt 538 will provide us with an analysis in the next 24 hours or so.
    My gut (FWIW, which probably isn't much) is that it's overall positive for the Democrats, but not massively so.
    They did a podcast where Nate Silver says that early voting data is essentially useless.
    He is basically correct
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    They don’t like drunken, loud yobs or ignorant fools, but who does?

    Farage because they vote for him.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    They don’t like drunken, loud yobs or ignorant fools, but who does?

    Don't they? How come they made Juncker head of the Commission then?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2018
    The polls weren't particularly wrong at the last election AFAIK. They got the Tory share almost spot on for example. The underestimated Labour slightly but not by a huge amount.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    edited October 2018

    Mr. Observer, what would you say to those who suggest any lack of leverage is because it was consistently signed away by governing parties (even when a referendum had been promised, and subsequently not held)?

    What is it about the Lisbon settlement that has reduced the UK's influence in the EU?
    We lost a whole bunch of vetoes that we had previously, especially in financial services where we are the most important member but can now be outvoted by the Eurozone members when it comes to QMV. We became a rule taker on the day Brown shamefully went there in the dead of night to sign the country's future away to Brussels.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    Barnesian said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    So the EU acknowledges it was a mistake which could blow up the deal (and which the U.K. was wrong to accept). But they are not going to walk back from it

    Stubborn refusal to face the facts is a dangerous thing. See, also, Brexit.

    If the “facts” are that we can’t in practice leave then we are no longer independent
    So you want to leave all other bodies like NATO which undermine our independence?
    No, he doesn’t. And it doesn’t.

    Virtually no Brexiteers do. It’s hilarious how many Remainers persist with this line of “argument”.
    It shows the inconsistency in the Brexiteers argument. But Brexiteers can't answer it so they try to airily brush it away.
    It does no such thing.
  • DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Looks like the fourth Reich is going to have to wait only 1 in 3 german tanks is working

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/nur-jeder-dritte-neue-panzer-der-bundeswehr-ist-einsatzbereit-15866260.html

    I would say that's normal for any complex bit of military kit. How many of its 450 Challenger IIs do you think the British Army has available for ops right now? Hint: it's nowhere near 150.
    I'm sure that's right. I remember we had to strip every tank in Germany to make sure that those we sent to the Gulf could actually move. Spare parts seem to be the first saving made which is of course utterly bizarre.

    How many of our fighters are typically operational?
    It's said that in WW2 the Germans handicapped their armour by constantly trying to improve it and having numerous different models, sophisticated for their time, with incompatible spare parts which kept breaking down. The Soviets had a small number of not very distinguished types which they produced in huge numbers, and in battlefield conditions that worked better than having the latest gizmos.
    On a related note this is an amusing story:

    ' "Superiority" is a science fiction short story by British writer Arthur C. Clarke, first published in 1951. It depicts an arms race during an interstellar war. It shows the side which is more technologically advanced being defeated, despite its apparent superiority, because of its willingness to discard old technology without having fully perfected the new. Meanwhile, the enemy steadily built up a far larger arsenal of weapons that while more primitive were also more reliable. The story was at one point required reading for an industrial design course at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. '

    http://www.mayofamily.com/RLM/txt_Clarke_Superiority.html
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677



    It's said that in WW2 the Germans handicapped their armour by constantly trying to improve it and having numerous different models, sophisticated for their time, with incompatible spare parts which kept breaking down. The Soviets had a small number of not very distinguished types which they produced in huge numbers, and in battlefield conditions that worked better than having the latest gizmos.

    There's supposed to be more man hours in the gunsight of a Panzer Zwei (which is no doubt an optical masterwork of unmatched precision) than an entire T-34.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Interesting take - which omits any analysis of EU action in the event of no deal:

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1057401554591014912?s=20

    Another aspect is to remind us all that when it comes to Europe, Conservative politicians just haven't been very good at politics. From the beginning, and especially since Cameron's bizarre decision to leave the main conservative group in the European Parliament, they have behaved like the nutter on the bus. If you want to get the most out of Europe you need to study it, understand it and frame your approach and strategy on the basis of what it is actually like.

    We all know negative people who spend all their time moaning and blaming everyone and everything else for their problems. That's the image we have projected in Europe. It's little wonder that we don't have any friends there.
    really ?

    Ive spent years listening to how great our "influence" in the EU, was, ae you saying it was all bollocks ?
    I think there's always been a good deal of goodwill towards us - Europeans simply like the Brits, by and large. But Recidivist is right that we've never used that very effectively - not so much the nutter on the bus as the loveable but irritating brother who means well but has no real idea of it being a family.
    They like a certain type of Brit: the respectful, polite and well-mannered kind.

    They don’t like the lager louts and stag dos so much, even if occasionally they can find some of them (in moderation) amusing.
    There's nothing worse than British yobs who go on holiday to Greece or the Spanish islands and behave like savages. They're an embarrassment to the country.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Looks like the fourth Reich is going to have to wait only 1 in 3 german tanks is working

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/nur-jeder-dritte-neue-panzer-der-bundeswehr-ist-einsatzbereit-15866260.html

    I would say that's normal for any complex bit of military kit. How many of its 450 Challenger IIs do you think the British Army has available for ops right now? Hint: it's nowhere near 150.
    I'm sure that's right. I remember we had to strip every tank in Germany to make sure that those we sent to the Gulf could actually move. Spare parts seem to be the first saving made which is of course utterly bizarre.

    How many of our fighters are typically operational?
    It's said that in WW2 the Germans handicapped their armour by constantly trying to improve it and having numerous different models, sophisticated for their time, with incompatible spare parts which kept breaking down. The Soviets had a small number of not very distinguished types which they produced in huge numbers, and in battlefield conditions that worked better than having the latest gizmos.
    That German equipment was often technologically superior but a lot more complex and inflexible is a key part of Overy's analysis. Although ultimately it was a matter of money, oil, and values.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Looks like the fourth Reich is going to have to wait only 1 in 3 german tanks is working

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/nur-jeder-dritte-neue-panzer-der-bundeswehr-ist-einsatzbereit-15866260.html

    I would say that's normal for any complex bit of military kit. How many of its 450 Challenger IIs do you think the British Army has available for ops right now? Hint: it's nowhere near 150.
    I'm sure that's right. I remember we had to strip every tank in Germany to make sure that those we sent to the Gulf could actually move. Spare parts seem to be the first saving made which is of course utterly bizarre.

    How many of our fighters are typically operational?
    It's said that in WW2 the Germans handicapped their armour by constantly trying to improve it and having numerous different models, sophisticated for their time, with incompatible spare parts which kept breaking down. The Soviets had a small number of not very distinguished types which they produced in huge numbers, and in battlefield conditions that worked better than having the latest gizmos.
    Sounds like the moon pen vs pencil legend!
This discussion has been closed.