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  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,712
    Blair, Brown and Cameron were all at Jowell's memorial service.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910

    McDonnell sounding very mainstream:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/24/labour-preparing-anti-austerity-budget-to-win-back-brexit-supporters

    Leaving aside foreign policy disagreements, I could imagine former spuproters like Southam feeling that this made a lot of sense.

    With respect Nick nothing McDonnell says makes sense. It ia all higher taxes on individuals and business, higher borrowing, more for welfare payments, more money swallowed by state in inefficient bodies, more power to the unions to hold the state at ransom, and so it goes on
    With respect, Big_G, all we now hear from the Conservatives are the usual siren calls and nonsense about cutting taxes. Austerity is apparently "over" and £20 billion is going on the NHS but at a time when local Councils are struggling to meet the costs of social care for vulnerable adults and children, all we hear is the litany of Tory complaints (John Whittingdale and Stephen Hammond are a couple of the worst examples) about taxes.

    If you want the economics of the madhouse, the Conservative Party is the place to go.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,712
    Does the public actually support higher welfare payments?

    McDonnell (and Corbyn) keep going on about poverty and inequality - but they always rate very low in the MORI Issues Index.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Foxy said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Foxy said:

    spudgfsh said:

    IanB2 said:

    spudgfsh said:


    The article as I recall suggested rather that he was blindsided by it. I guess Lincolnshire has somewhat more EU migrants than Chipping Norton.
    the problem for a lot of people outside chipping norton (especially in areas like lincolnshire, norfolk, suffolk etc) was that over the period of 10 years following the accession of the 10 new countries there was a significant influx of people who changed the feeling of small towns. they also (due to unscrupulous factory owners) drove down wages in the agriculture and food processing industries. not a surprise people voted to leave
    Though some of the most Leave voting areas, such as South Wales or Copeland, had little immigration and declining populations.
    I couldn't comment on those areas specifically but from my experience the people who voted leave were in areas which didn't see the benefits of the EU/globalisation and the areas which voted remain are those who did.
    To some extent, which is why an open global Britain will not satisfy them.

    More globalisation is not the answer to the problems of globalisation.
    You misunderstand. They did not see any of the fruits of this wonderful globalisation being shared with them. The parts of Copeland I know have been very welcoming to immigrants, many of them from pre-war Continental Europe. What they didn’t see was much or any benefit from the established political and economic settlement.

    The first time any PM visited Millom was after the unexpected Tory by-election victory there last year. It’s not on any established tourist trail. But it has an interesting history, beautiful countryside and people with spirit, who could achieve much if they had even a fraction of the largesse lavished elsewhere. The current political issue is the closure of the only public swimming people built by the people in the 1950’s and closed by a remote council in Kendal for dubious reasons. The children in that area - surrounded by lakes and sea - will have no opportunity to learn to swim, until a child dies in the sea, the reason the pool got built in the first place. Still, they will have the dubious pleasure of being sneered at by the likes of @Roger for being fatties, I suppose.

    If London-based politicians had spent more time visiting the unsung parts of the country they seek to govern and listening to their concerns they might have understood the different prism through which people viewed matters and might have tried to address them. They didn’t. They ignored them, took them for granted, insulted or patronised them. And people there aren’t daft and don’t take well to such behaviour. No-one does.
  • stodge said:

    McDonnell sounding very mainstream:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/24/labour-preparing-anti-austerity-budget-to-win-back-brexit-supporters

    Leaving aside foreign policy disagreements, I could imagine former spuproters like Southam feeling that this made a lot of sense.

    With respect Nick nothing McDonnell says makes sense. It ia all higher taxes on individuals and business, higher borrowing, more for welfare payments, more money swallowed by state in inefficient bodies, more power to the unions to hold the state at ransom, and so it goes on
    With respect, Big_G, all we now hear from the Conservatives are the usual siren calls and nonsense about cutting taxes. Austerity is apparently "over" and £20 billion is going on the NHS but at a time when local Councils are struggling to meet the costs of social care for vulnerable adults and children, all we hear is the litany of Tory complaints (John Whittingdale and Stephen Hammond are a couple of the worst examples) about taxes.

    If you want the economics of the madhouse, the Conservative Party is the place to go.
    I think you will find a very good OBR report pre budget. You do know there has been a huge increase intax paid as corporation tax falls.

    Social care has not been addressed by either party but the conservatives retain a huge lead on trust over economic management
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    edited October 2018
    May's stasis is predicated upon the false premise that a choice of evils is any choice at all.As Jerry Garcia famously said “Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.”The outcome is government paralysis.None of the pressing problems are being solved,from prisons,to police,to social care.May leads a government of nothingness.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Apparently Corbyn did not go to Tessa Jowell’s recent memorial service.

    He was at an anti-fracking meeting. Nothing wrong with that of course.

    Still not to attend the memorial service, given that he is the leader of the party that Dame Tessa loyally served for decades seems to me to be a little shabby. Being leader invoves having responsibilities which are of the office and do not just relate to your own political interests.

    If he could find time yesterday to meet the King and Queen of the Netherlands he could have found time for the Jowell memorial service. Badly done, Jezza.

    Not as bad as Blair not going to Robin Cooks funeral.
    I didn’t know that. Poor show by Blair. But Corbyn’s behaviour is as bad. He claims to be different, to be better. And he isn’t.
  • MikeL said:

    Does the public actually support higher welfare payments?

    McDonnell (and Corbyn) keep going on about poverty and inequality - but they always rate very low in the MORI Issues Index.

    No - nor do they want higher taxes other than a hypothecate tax for the NHS
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Inter Barca, pick of the games tonight. Could be a final tbh

    PSG v Napoli surely?
    Changed over, it's a better game in all honesty.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910

    I think you will find a very good OBR report pre budget. You do know there has been a huge increase intax paid as corporation tax falls.

    Social care has not been addressed by either party but the conservatives retain a huge lead on trust over economic management

    We're back to the fundamental question - should any "windfall", which may or may not continue depending on the economic cycle, be handed over in tax cuts or used to protect local public services including care for vulnerable adults and children?

    I'd rather see those less fortunate looked after than have a tax cut but I accept that might be a minority view. I don't think Hammond is in a position to do both.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Apparently Corbyn did not go to Tessa Jowell’s recent memorial service.

    He was at an anti-fracking meeting. Nothing wrong with that of course.

    Still not to attend the memorial service, given that he is the leader of the party that Dame Tessa loyally served for decades seems to me to be a little shabby. Being leader invoves having responsibilities which are of the office and do not just relate to your own political interests.

    If he could find time yesterday to meet the King and Queen of the Netherlands he could have found time for the Jowell memorial service. Badly done, Jezza.

    Not as bad as Blair not going to Robin Cooks funeral.
    Wow - Is that the benchmark Labour supporters use these days?
  • stodge said:

    I think you will find a very good OBR report pre budget. You do know there has been a huge increase intax paid as corporation tax falls.

    Social care has not been addressed by either party but the conservatives retain a huge lead on trust over economic management

    We're back to the fundamental question - should any "windfall", which may or may not continue depending on the economic cycle, be handed over in tax cuts or used to protect local public services including care for vulnerable adults and children?

    I'd rather see those less fortunate looked after than have a tax cut but I accept that might be a minority view. I don't think Hammond is in a position to do both.
    There has to be a balance but paying more in welfare is not popular

    It is clear Hammond has to deliver 20 billion to the NHS by 2020 but I would also expect to see modest cuts to ordinary tax payers
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Foxy said:

    spudgfsh said:

    IanB2 said:

    spudgfsh said:


    The article as I recall suggested rather that he was blindsided by it. I guess Lincolnshire has somewhat more EU migrants than Chipping Norton.
    the problem for a lot e
    Though some of the most Leave voting areas, such as South Wales or Copeland, had little immigration and declining populations.
    I couldn't comment on those areas specifically but from my experience the people who voted leave were in areas which didn't see the benefits of the EU/globalisation and the areas which voted remain are those who did.
    To some extent, which is why an open global Britain will not satisfy them.

    More globalisation is not the answer to the problems of globalisation.
    You misunderstand. They did not see any of the fruits of this wonderful globalisation being shared with them. The parts of Copeland I know have been very welcoming to immigrants, many of them from pre-war Continental Europe. What they didn’t see was much or any benefit from the established political and economic settlement.

    The first time any PM visited Millom was after the unexpected Tory by-election victory there last year. It’s not on any established tourist trail. But it has an interesting history, beautiful countryside and people with spirit, who could achieve much if they had even a fraction of the largesse lavished elsewhere. The current political issue is the closure of the only public swimming people built by the people in the 1950’s and closed by a remote council in Kendal for dubious reasons. The children in that area - surrounded by lakes and sea - will have no opportunity to learn to swim, until a child dies in the sea, the reason the pool got built in the first place. Still, they will have the dubious pleasure of being sneered at by the likes of @Roger for being fatties, I suppose.

    If London-based politicians had spent more time visiting the unsung parts of the country they seek to govern and listening to their concerns they might have understood the different prism through which people viewed matters and might have tried to address them. They didn’t. They ignored them, took them for granted, insulted or patronised them. And people there aren’t daft and don’t take well to such behaviour. No-one does.
    Thats what I meant. I undestand why people are pissed off in Copeland, just dont see how Brexit improves their lives. Indeed it may well drive more austerity. At the very least it is a distraction.

    I do not live in a bubble, I live in Leicester, the city with the second lowest gross disposeable household income in the UK
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    Cyclefree said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Apparently Corbyn did not go to Tessa Jowell’s recent memorial service.

    He was at an anti-fracking meeting. Nothing wrong with that of course.

    Still not to attend the memorial service, given that he is the leader of the party that Dame Tessa loyally served for decades seems to me to be a little shabby. Being leader invoves having responsibilities which are of the office and do not just relate to your own political interests.

    If he could find time yesterday to meet the King and Queen of the Netherlands he could have found time for the Jowell memorial service. Badly done, Jezza.

    Not as bad as Blair not going to Robin Cooks funeral.
    I didn’t know that. Poor show by Blair. But Corbyn’s behaviour is as bad. He claims to be different, to be better. And he isn’t.
    In fairness to Blair he did attend and give a reading at the memorial service.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    AndyJS said:

    The biggest problem for the Democrats is that according to a recent survey 80% of Americans think political correctness and identity politics is a bad thing, yet the party is filled with members of the 8% who think it's a good thing, to put it as simply as possible.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2018/10/12/80_say_political_correctness_is_a_national_problem_456098.html
    http://thefederalist.com/2018/10/12/80-percent-of-americans-think-political-correctness-is-a-national-problem/

    Do they define what "political correctness" is?

    Given it is listed as a problem area isn't that just going to be interpreted by respondants as a nebulous "things they disagree with".

    What a Ku Klux Klan memeber interprets as political correctness will be different from a centrist dad's interpretation.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    MikeL said:

    Does the public actually support higher welfare payments?

    McDonnell (and Corbyn) keep going on about poverty and inequality - but they always rate very low in the MORI Issues Index.

    Universal Credit will test that assumption to the limit
    Especially when it hits hard the lower middle class.

    As May keeps telling us the just about managing.
    In reality she could not give a fuc*

    Until it effects her and the conservative party election prospects.
    Or the threat of Corbyn does not have the same impact , with the so called Jams.
    A patronising concept.

    They have no concept about just about managing.
    As the vast majority who post on here are in a similar position.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    Alistair said:

    AndyJS said:

    The biggest problem for the Democrats is that according to a recent survey 80% of Americans think political correctness and identity politics is a bad thing, yet the party is filled with members of the 8% who think it's a good thing, to put it as simply as possible.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2018/10/12/80_say_political_correctness_is_a_national_problem_456098.html
    http://thefederalist.com/2018/10/12/80-percent-of-americans-think-political-correctness-is-a-national-problem/

    Do they define what "political correctness" is?

    Given it is listed as a problem area isn't that just going to be interpreted by respondants as a nebulous "things they disagree with".

    What a Ku Klux Klan memeber interprets as political correctness will be different from a centrist dad's interpretation.
    And what is Trumpism, if not "identity politics"?
  • dyingswandyingswan Posts: 189
    When will people realise that May will not be overthrown? Most of the public now yearn for an end to this negotiation and will accept what she brings back. They recognise that the touchline critics could do no better. Most of them could barely negotiate their way around a puddle on the pavement, let alone an international agreement of complexity. She also has the enormous advantage of the alternative being The Obsolete Boy .
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    AndyJS said:

    The biggest problem for the Democrats is that according to a recent survey 80% of Americans think political correctness and identity politics is a bad thing, yet the party is filled with members of the 8% who think it's a good thing, to put it as simply as possible.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2018/10/12/80_say_political_correctness_is_a_national_problem_456098.html
    http://thefederalist.com/2018/10/12/80-percent-of-americans-think-political-correctness-is-a-national-problem/

    Do they define what "political correctness" is?

    Given it is listed as a problem area isn't that just going to be interpreted by respondants as a nebulous "things they disagree with".

    What a Ku Klux Klan memeber interprets as political correctness will be different from a centrist dad's interpretation.
    And what is Trumpism, if not "identity politics"?
    Spectacular dishonesty ?
    https://slate.com/business/2018/10/trump-preexisting-conditions-lie.html
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    AndyJS said:

    The biggest problem for the Democrats is that according to a recent survey 80% of Americans think political correctness and identity politics is a bad thing, yet the party is filled with members of the 8% who think it's a good thing, to put it as simply as possible.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2018/10/12/80_say_political_correctness_is_a_national_problem_456098.html
    http://thefederalist.com/2018/10/12/80-percent-of-americans-think-political-correctness-is-a-national-problem/

    Do they define what "political correctness" is?

    Given it is listed as a problem area isn't that just going to be interpreted by respondants as a nebulous "things they disagree with".

    What a Ku Klux Klan memeber interprets as political correctness will be different from a centrist dad's interpretation.
    And what is Trumpism, if not "identity politics"?
    It is the identiest of Identity Politics.

    But people who form a majority grouping have a weird blind spot to identifiying identity politics aimed at themselves.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    dyingswan said:

    When will people realise that May will not be overthrown? Most of the public now yearn for an end to this negotiation and will accept what she brings back. They recognise that the touchline critics could do no better. Most of them could barely negotiate their way around a puddle on the pavement, let alone an international agreement of complexity. She also has the enormous advantage of the alternative being The Obsolete Boy .

    Certainly people are sick of Brexit, but I suspect the final outcome will be an orphan, which no one wants or likes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    Alistair said:

    AndyJS said:

    The biggest problem for the Democrats is that according to a recent survey 80% of Americans think political correctness and identity politics is a bad thing, yet the party is filled with members of the 8% who think it's a good thing, to put it as simply as possible.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2018/10/12/80_say_political_correctness_is_a_national_problem_456098.html
    http://thefederalist.com/2018/10/12/80-percent-of-americans-think-political-correctness-is-a-national-problem/

    Do they define what "political correctness" is?
    .
    Saluting the flag at American football games ?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    edited October 2018
    Cyclefree said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Apparently Corbyn did not go to Tessa Jowell’s recent memorial service.

    He was at an anti-fracking meeting. Nothing wrong with that of course.

    Still not to attend the memorial service, given that he is the leader of the party that Dame Tessa loyally served for decades seems to me to be a little shabby. Being leader invoves having responsibilities which are of the office and do not just relate to your own political interests.

    If he could find time yesterday to meet the King and Queen of the Netherlands he could have found time for the Jowell memorial service. Badly done, Jezza.

    Not as bad as Blair not going to Robin Cooks funeral.
    I didn’t know that. Poor show by Blair. But Corbyn’s behaviour is as bad. He claims to be different, to be better. And he isn’t.
    Yes my father was not impressed at the time.Or the Daily Mail which he reads every day.
    I tried to defend it been a Blair supporter with no real conviction.
    He should have gone .


    Many made the assumption it was due to the Iraq war.
    And Cooks resignation from the cabinet.

    Who in my opinion is the best PM , I lived under.
    Voted for him in 97 2001 and 2005 and would have done again if he was standing for a fourth election.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    No-one has any credibility when it comes to the public finances in my eyes if they are talking about tax cuts before we have paid back a single penny of the eye-watering sums that we have borrowed over the last ten or more years.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    IanB2 said:

    Dave's two mistakes were

    1) He never expected moderates to back Leave, he had wargamed for Leave to be fronted by the likes of Farage and Redwood, and was doubly thrown when Vote Leave ran the campaign he expected Leave.EU would

    2) He should have gone blue on blue

    There’s another view: (3) he should have negotiated much harder and with more conviction from his 2013 Bloomberg speech, played the EU negations longer on that to 2017 or even 2018 and absolutely put Britain’s membership on the line for that, before getting a new draft treaty done.

    He’d then have still had Farage and Redwood against him but would have got most Conservatives with him and won 60/40.

    He basically thought he’d get away with it, and didn’t know how weak his real position was.
    Cameron's negotiation was rushed and half-hearted presumably because he wanted it out of the way to get on with the things he was really interested in. Whatever those were. It was a bit arrogant and the renegotiation ultimately played no part in the campaign as far as I could tell.

    This seems like insincerity on Cameron's part - that he didn't think it was really necessary, but he had to go through the motions. The polling before the renegotiation concluded suggested that a convincing renegotiation could have won the referendum by 2:1. Cameron fluffed it, the public could tell, and Leave prevailed.
    Somewhere on the internet there is a lengthy explanation by one of the senior civil servants who supported Cameron through this process, which said that Cameron tried hard and actually secured a reasonable deal on almost all of the key issues, building on the opt outs we already enjoyed from the Major years, with the one critical exception that he didn't pick up freedom of movement (i.e. Immigration) as the critical issue until it was to late to table it as part of his demands.
    I'm always interested in challenging my views by reading the words of experts. I'll see if I can track that down.
  • Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Apparently Corbyn did not go to Tessa Jowell’s recent memorial service.

    He was at an anti-fracking meeting. Nothing wrong with that of course.

    Still not to attend the memorial service, given that he is the leader of the party that Dame Tessa loyally served for decades seems to me to be a little shabby. Being leader invoves having responsibilities which are of the office and do not just relate to your own political interests.

    If he could find time yesterday to meet the King and Queen of the Netherlands he could have found time for the Jowell memorial service. Badly done, Jezza.

    Not as bad as Blair not going to Robin Cooks funeral.
    I didn’t know that. Poor show by Blair. But Corbyn’s behaviour is as bad. He claims to be different, to be better. And he isn’t.
    Yes my father was not impressed at the time.Or the Daily Mail which he reads every day.
    I tried to defend it been a Blair supporter with no real conviction.
    He should have gone .


    Many made the assumption it was due to the Iraq war.
    And Cooks resignation from the cabinet.

    Who in my opinion is the best PM , I lived under.
    Voted for him in 97 2001 and 2005 and would have done again if he was standing for a fourth election.
    For me Churchill, Thatcher and Blair
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Cyclefree said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Apparently Corbyn did not go to Tessa Jowell’s recent memorial service.

    He was at an anti-fracking meeting. Nothing wrong with that of course.

    Still not to attend the memorial service, given that he is the leader of the party that Dame Tessa loyally served for decades seems to me to be a little shabby. Being leader invoves having responsibilities which are of the office and do not just relate to your own political interests.

    If he could find time yesterday to meet the King and Queen of the Netherlands he could have found time for the Jowell memorial service. Badly done, Jezza.

    Not as bad as Blair not going to Robin Cooks funeral.
    I didn’t know that. Poor show by Blair. But Corbyn’s behaviour is as bad. He claims to be different, to be better. And he isn’t.
    I agree, poor show by both.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Foxy said:

    spudgfsh said:

    IanB2 said:

    spudgfsh said:


    e

    The first time any PM visited Millom was after the unexpected Tory by-election victory there last year. It’s not on any established tourist trail. But it has an interesting history, beautiful countryside and people with spirit, who could achieve much if they had even a fraction of the largesse lavished elsewhere. The current political issue is the closure of the only public swimming people built by the people in the 1950’s and closed by a remote council in Kendal for dubious reasons. The children in that area - surrounded by lakes and sea - will have no opportunity to learn to swim, until a child dies in the sea, the reason the pool got built in the first place. Still, they will have the dubious pleasure of being sneered at by the likes of @Roger for being fatties, I suppose.

    If London-based politicians had spent more time visiting the unsung parts of the country they seek to govern and listening to their concerns they might have understood the different prism through which people viewed matters and might have tried to address them. They didn’t. They ignored them, took them for granted, insulted or patronised them. And people there aren’t daft and don’t take well to such behaviour. No-one does.
    Thats what I meant. I undestand why people are pissed off in Copeland, just dont see how Brexit improves their lives. Indeed it may well drive more austerity. At the very least it is a distraction.

    I do not live in a bubble, I live in Leicester, the city with the second lowest gross disposeable household income in the UK
    I wasn’t accusing you. I just get pissed off with people (not you) sneering at ordinary places like Copeland when they usually know damn all about them. At least Corbyn asked at PMQs a while back a question about rural buses, which bloody well matter in places like that. I can see his attractions when the reaction to something like that is all “Ooh, look at him being so trivial!”

    I tend to agree that Brexit probably isn’t the answer. But how else do people in such areas get their voices heard and their interests championed?

    Cameron asked a question along the lines of “Everything’s fine, isn’t it?”

    And then like a husband who’s largely neglected his wife for years, preferring the excitement of late night meetings concluding “deals” and lots of travel to conferences and checking his Blackberry, being all surprised and hurt when she bursts out in frustration “No, it bloody well isn’t!”
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Cyclefree said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Apparently Corbyn did not go to Tessa Jowell’s recent memorial service.

    He was at an anti-fracking meeting. Nothing wrong with that of course.

    Still not to attend the memorial service, given that he is the leader of the party that Dame Tessa loyally served for decades seems to me to be a little shabby. Being leader invoves having responsibilities which are of the office and do not just relate to your own political interests.

    If he could find time yesterday to meet the King and Queen of the Netherlands he could have found time for the Jowell memorial service. Badly done, Jezza.

    Not as bad as Blair not going to Robin Cooks funeral.
    I didn’t know that. Poor show by Blair. But Corbyn’s behaviour is as bad. He claims to be different, to be better. And he isn’t.
    I could be wrong - but didn't the family ask Blair not to attend the funeral because they feared it would stir up controversy?

    I know John McCririck went mental about it while giving the address and got pretty personal and abusive, but then he usually does. Frankly, I didn't think he was a clever choice to give the eulogy if they wanted to avoid controversy.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Alistair said:

    Yep, well, this is a thing.

    That's a big step up.

    She previously successfully stalked a rabbit with a high powered rifle...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    AndyJS said:

    The biggest problem for the Democrats is that according to a recent survey 80% of Americans think political correctness and identity politics is a bad thing, yet the party is filled with members of the 8% who think it's a good thing, to put it as simply as possible.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2018/10/12/80_say_political_correctness_is_a_national_problem_456098.html
    http://thefederalist.com/2018/10/12/80-percent-of-americans-think-political-correctness-is-a-national-problem/

    Do they define what "political correctness" is?

    Given it is listed as a problem area isn't that just going to be interpreted by respondants as a nebulous "things they disagree with".

    What a Ku Klux Klan memeber interprets as political correctness will be different from a centrist dad's interpretation.
    And what is Trumpism, if not "identity politics"?
    It's the counter reaction to it.

    One begets the other.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,710
    Alistair said:
    Yes but to be fair she took out one of the upgraded versions, you know, the ones with the laser eyes and hydraulic legs and titanium exoskeleton.
  • stodge said:

    I think you will find a very good OBR report pre budget. You do know there has been a huge increase intax paid as corporation tax falls.

    Social care has not been addressed by either party but the conservatives retain a huge lead on trust over economic management

    We're back to the fundamental question - should any "windfall", which may or may not continue depending on the economic cycle, be handed over in tax cuts or used to protect local public services including care for vulnerable adults and children?

    I'd rather see those less fortunate looked after than have a tax cut but I accept that might be a minority view. I don't think Hammond is in a position to do both.
    by and large I don't think he's going to do either. Some more money for UC and health (NHS and social care) but no floodgates.

    and no tax cuts
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Scott_P said:

    Alistair said:

    Yep, well, this is a thing.

    That's a big step up.

    She previously successfully stalked a rabbit with a high powered rifle...
    There's no need to split hares on this subject. It only leads to woolly thinking.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    These Tory leads in the polls are very interesting.

    One theory is that the more complicated and dicey the politics and economics look over one thing, for example, the less likely voters will be to experiment with another, like Corbynism.

    May also looks like a sane woman trying to do the best job she can, tenaciously. That probably helps her too.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Apparently Corbyn did not go to Tessa Jowell’s recent memorial service.

    He was at an anti-fracking meeting. Nothing wrong with that of course.

    Still not to attend the memorial service, given that he is the leader of the party that Dame Tessa loyally served for decades seems to me to be a little shabby. Being leader invoves having responsibilities which are of the office and do not just relate to your own political interests.

    If he could find time yesterday to meet the King and Queen of the Netherlands he could have found time for the Jowell memorial service. Badly done, Jezza.

    Not as bad as Blair not going to Robin Cooks funeral.
    I didn’t know that. Poor show by Blair. But Corbyn’s behaviour is as bad. He claims to be different, to be better. And he isn’t.
    I could be wrong - but didn't the family ask Blair not to attend the funeral because they feared it would stir up controversy?

    I know John McCririck went mental about it while giving the address and got pretty personal and abusive, but then he usually does. Frankly, I didn't think he was a clever choice to give the eulogy if they wanted to avoid controversy.
    No idea. I was only making the comment about Dame Tessa, partly because I knew her slightly and liked her, I thought her bravery during her last illness and attempt to use it to help others was impressive and I was surprised to find that Corbyn could find time to meet the Dutch monarchs but not to attend a service for a fellow London Labour MP.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Alistair said:
    Isn't that a goat?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Apparently Corbyn did not go to Tessa Jowell’s recent memorial service.

    He was at an anti-fracking meeting. Nothing wrong with that of course.

    Still not to attend the memorial service, given that he is the leader of the party that Dame Tessa loyally served for decades seems to me to be a little shabby. Being leader invoves having responsibilities which are of the office and do not just relate to your own political interests.

    If he could find time yesterday to meet the King and Queen of the Netherlands he could have found time for the Jowell memorial service. Badly done, Jezza.

    Not as bad as Blair not going to Robin Cooks funeral.
    I didn’t know that. Poor show by Blair. But Corbyn’s behaviour is as bad. He claims to be different, to be better. And he isn’t.
    Yes my father was not impressed at the time.Or the Daily Mail which he reads every day.
    I tried to defend it been a Blair supporter with no real conviction.
    He should have gone .


    Many made the assumption it was due to the Iraq war.
    And Cooks resignation from the cabinet.

    Who in my opinion is the best PM , I lived under.
    Voted for him in 97 2001 and 2005 and would have done again if he was standing for a fourth election.
    For me Churchill, Thatcher and Blair
    Yes I agree big g.
    Both singing of the same hymn sheet.
    Amazing how close we are politically.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited October 2018

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    I'm not crying over the death of an animal, I'm a meat eater. I had some excellent medium rare Lamb the other night.

    I'm laughing over the fact that it's a domesticated sheep. That's she's proud of shooting.

    It's a sheep.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
  • Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Apparently Corbyn did not go to Tessa Jowell’s recent memorial service.

    He was at an anti-fracking meeting. Nothing wrong with that of course.

    Still not to attend the memorial service, given that he is the leader of the party that Dame Tessa loyally served for decades seems to me to be a little shabby. Being leader invoves having responsibilities which are of the office and do not just relate to your own political interests.

    If he could find time yesterday to meet the King and Queen of the Netherlands he could have found time for the Jowell memorial service. Badly done, Jezza.

    Not as bad as Blair not going to Robin Cooks funeral.
    I didn’t know that. Poor show by Blair. But Corbyn’s behaviour is as bad. He claims to be different, to be better. And he isn’t.
    I could be wrong - but didn't the family ask Blair not to attend the funeral because they feared it would stir up controversy?

    I know John McCririck went mental about it while giving the address and got pretty personal and abusive, but then he usually does. Frankly, I didn't think he was a clever choice to give the eulogy if they wanted to avoid controversy.
    No idea. I was only making the comment about Dame Tessa, partly because I knew her slightly and liked her, I thought her bravery during her last illness and attempt to use it to help others was impressive and I was surprised to find that Corbyn could find time to meet the Dutch monarchs but not to attend a service for a fellow London Labour MP.
    She was worth a thousand of Corbyn. Great lady
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
    I agree. It's American, triumphantist and dickish, particularly the gloating, but this sort of culling goes on all the time, and I have no problem with such animals being shot for meat either.

    Others will disagree vehmently, of course, but a sense of proportion is needed.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:
    Isn't that a goat?
    The one with the headband and silly grin
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    These Tory leads in the polls are very interesting.

    One theory is that the more complicated and dicey the politics and economics look over one thing, for example, the less likely voters will be to experiment with another, like Corbynism.

    May also looks like a sane woman trying to do the best job she can, tenaciously. That probably helps her too.

    Or they could just be will o’ the wisp leads, there simply because all we ever hear about are the Tories. Labour has been silent. That will change once/if a Brexit deal is done, a fortiori if there is No Deal and in an election campaign I would not be surprised to see Labour run rings around the Tories. Again.

    I would not, if I were you, take comfort from these leads.

    Other than Brexit and not Corbyn, what do the Tories stand for?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    I'm not crying over the death of an animal, I'm a meat eater. I had some excellent medium rare Lamb the other night.

    I'm laughing over the fact that it's a domesticated sheep. That's she's proud of shooting.

    It's a sheep.
    Fair enough.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910


    There has to be a balance but paying more in welfare is not popular

    It is clear Hammond has to deliver 20 billion to the NHS by 2020 but I would also expect to see modest cuts to ordinary tax payers

    Supporting vulnerable adults and children is not "welfare".

    It's what a civilised society does .
  • Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Apparently Corbyn did not go to Tessa Jowell’s recent memorial service.

    He was at an anti-fracking meeting. Nothing wrong with that of course.

    Still not to attend the memorial service, given that he is the leader of the party that Dame Tessa loyally served for decades seems to me to be a little shabby. Being leader invoves having responsibilities which are of the office and do not just relate to your own political interests.

    If he could find time yesterday to meet the King and Queen of the Netherlands he could have found time for the Jowell memorial service. Badly done, Jezza.

    Not as bad as Blair not going to Robin Cooks funeral.
    I didn’t know that. Poor show by Blair. But Corbyn’s behaviour is as bad. He claims to be different, to be better. And he isn’t.
    I could be wrong - but didn't the family ask Blair not to attend the funeral because they feared it would stir up controversy?

    I know John McCririck went mental about it while giving the address and got pretty personal and abusive, but then he usually does. Frankly, I didn't think he was a clever choice to give the eulogy if they wanted to avoid controversy.
    No idea. I was only making the comment about Dame Tessa, partly because I knew her slightly and liked her, I thought her bravery during her last illness and attempt to use it to help others was impressive and I was surprised to find that Corbyn could find time to meet the Dutch monarchs but not to attend a service for a fellow London Labour MP.
    She was worth a thousand of Corbyn. Great lady
    And one day how many London Labour MPs will go to his memorial service?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
    I agree. It's American, triumphantist and dickish, particularly the gloating, but this sort of culling goes on all the time, and I have no problem with such animals being shot for meat either.

    Others will disagree vehmently, of course, but a sense of proportion is needed.
    Culling, fine, hunting this is not. She seems like an idiot.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Scott_P said:
    It makes Nick Clegg and the dog shit posted through his letter box when he was Deputy PM seem like small beer! The ongoing American incident could see someone or a group of people having serious jail time. Any sort of attack like this is spiteful and vindictive.
  • Scott_P said:
    Do the Secret Service check his outbound mail?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    Cyclefree said:

    These Tory leads in the polls are very interesting.

    One theory is that the more complicated and dicey the politics and economics look over one thing, for example, the less likely voters will be to experiment with another, like Corbynism.

    May also looks like a sane woman trying to do the best job she can, tenaciously. That probably helps her too.

    Or they could just be will o’ the wisp leads, there simply because all we ever hear about are the Tories. Labour has been silent. That will change once/if a Brexit deal is done, a fortiori if there is No Deal and in an election campaign I would not be surprised to see Labour run rings around the Tories. Again.

    I would not, if I were you, take comfort from these leads.

    Other than Brexit and not Corbyn, what do the Tories stand for?
    I don't take comfort from anything at the moment!

    The Tories stand for unionism, a balanced approach to the economy, making work pay, and strengthening families and communities rather than the state.

    But, such things aren't getting much airtime at the moment for obvious reasons.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
    I agree. It's American, triumphantist and dickish, particularly the gloating, but this sort of culling goes on all the time, and I have no problem with such animals being shot for meat either.

    Others will disagree vehmently, of course, but a sense of proportion is needed.
    Culling, fine, hunting this is not. She seems like an idiot.
    I don't have any ethical objections to hunting a sheep.
  • stodge said:


    There has to be a balance but paying more in welfare is not popular

    It is clear Hammond has to deliver 20 billion to the NHS by 2020 but I would also expect to see modest cuts to ordinary tax payers

    Supporting vulnerable adults and children is not "welfare".

    It's what a civilised society does .
    I agree and that has to be the safety net that government cater for in all cases
  • Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Apparently Corbyn did not go to Tessa Jowell’s recent memorial service.

    He was at an anti-fracking meeting. Nothing wrong with that of course.

    Still not to attend the memorial service, given that he is the leader of the party that Dame Tessa loyally served for decades seems to me to be a little shabby. Being leader invoves having responsibilities which are of the office and do not just relate to your own political interests.

    If he could find time yesterday to meet the King and Queen of the Netherlands he could have found time for the Jowell memorial service. Badly done, Jezza.

    Not as bad as Blair not going to Robin Cooks funeral.
    I didn’t know that. Poor show by Blair. But Corbyn’s behaviour is as bad. He claims to be different, to be better. And he isn’t.
    Yes my father was not impressed at the time.Or the Daily Mail which he reads every day.
    I tried to defend it been a Blair supporter with no real conviction.
    He should have gone .


    Many made the assumption it was due to the Iraq war.
    And Cooks resignation from the cabinet.

    Who in my opinion is the best PM , I lived under.
    Voted for him in 97 2001 and 2005 and would have done again if he was standing for a fourth election.
    For me Churchill, Thatcher and Blair
    Yes I agree big g.
    Both singing of the same hymn sheet.
    Amazing how close we are politically.
    Indeed and I always like to share common ground with posters
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
    I agree. It's American, triumphantist and dickish, particularly the gloating, but this sort of culling goes on all the time, and I have no problem with such animals being shot for meat either.

    Others will disagree vehmently, of course, but a sense of proportion is needed.
    Culling, fine, hunting this is not. She seems like an idiot.
    I don't have any ethical objections to hunting a sheep.
    As a Welshman born in the Forest of Dean, I know far more than any rational human should about the stalking of them...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
    I agree. It's American, triumphantist and dickish, particularly the gloating, but this sort of culling goes on all the time, and I have no problem with such animals being shot for meat either.

    Others will disagree vehmently, of course, but a sense of proportion is needed.
    Culling, fine, hunting this is not. She seems like an idiot.
    I don't have any ethical objections to hunting a sheep.
    But it isn't hunting. There are sheep in the field next to my house. You could literally walk up to one and slit its throat. They require no skill, pose no challenge.
    If she intends it to be eaten then I have no objection to her actions.
    I object to calling it hunting though. It is simply killing.
    You may just as easily call a slaughterman in an abattoir a hunter.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
    I agree. It's American, triumphantist and dickish, particularly the gloating, but this sort of culling goes on all the time, and I have no problem with such animals being shot for meat either.

    Others will disagree vehmently, of course, but a sense of proportion is needed.
    Culling, fine, hunting this is not. She seems like an idiot.
    I don't have any ethical objections to hunting a sheep.
    But it isn't hunting. There are sheep in the field next to my house. You could literally walk up to one and slit its throat. They require no skill, pose no challenge.
    If she intends it to be eaten then I have no objection to her actions.
    I object to calling it hunting though. It is simply killing.
    You may just as easily call a slaughterman in an abattoir a hunter.
    Are you saying it's because you baa-ly have to make any effort?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910

    stodge said:


    There has to be a balance but paying more in welfare is not popular

    It is clear Hammond has to deliver 20 billion to the NHS by 2020 but I would also expect to see modest cuts to ordinary tax payers

    Supporting vulnerable adults and children is not "welfare".

    It's what a civilised society does .
    I agree and that has to be the safety net that government cater for in all cases
    The problem is it's up to local Councils including well-run Conservative Counties like East Sussex and Surrey to pick up the tab. Government has walked away boasting about how much the deficit has fallen when all that has happened is the budgetary pressure has gone elsewhere.

    I'd like to hear a Conservative support Conservative Councils rather than leaving it to this Liberal Democrat to stand up for them.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
    I agree. It's American, triumphantist and dickish, particularly the gloating, but this sort of culling goes on all the time, and I have no problem with such animals being shot for meat either.

    Others will disagree vehmently, of course, but a sense of proportion is needed.
    Culling, fine, hunting this is not. She seems like an idiot.
    I don't have any ethical objections to hunting a sheep.
    I wondered whether an enterprising Scottish sheep farmer was seeing it as a new source of income.
  • Cyclefree said:

    These Tory leads in the polls are very interesting.

    One theory is that the more complicated and dicey the politics and economics look over one thing, for example, the less likely voters will be to experiment with another, like Corbynism.

    May also looks like a sane woman trying to do the best job she can, tenaciously. That probably helps her too.

    Or they could just be will o’ the wisp leads, there simply because all we ever hear about are the Tories. Labour has been silent. That will change once/if a Brexit deal is done, a fortiori if there is No Deal and in an election campaign I would not be surprised to see Labour run rings around the Tories. Again.

    I would not, if I were you, take comfort from these leads.

    Other than Brexit and not Corbyn, what do the Tories stand for?
    This one stands for honesty, responsible finance, compassion, responsible state bodies, encouraging success, low taxes, and sensible policies on the environment. Brexit is a huge distraction almost impossible to predict
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    Cyclefree said:

    These Tory leads in the polls are very interesting.

    One theory is that the more complicated and dicey the politics and economics look over one thing, for example, the less likely voters will be to experiment with another, like Corbynism.

    May also looks like a sane woman trying to do the best job she can, tenaciously. That probably helps her too.

    Or they could just be will o’ the wisp leads, there simply because all we ever hear about are the Tories. Labour has been silent. That will change once/if a Brexit deal is done, a fortiori if there is No Deal and in an election campaign I would not be surprised to see Labour run rings around the Tories. Again.

    I would not, if I were you, take comfort from these leads.

    Other than Brexit and not Corbyn, what do the Tories stand for?
    Jobs for the boys. Might is right. You know, the usual stuff.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
    She's still wearing that from earlier in the day when she was stalking some gerbils.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
    I agree. It's American, triumphantist and dickish, particularly the gloating, but this sort of culling goes on all the time, and I have no problem with such animals being shot for meat either.

    Others will disagree vehmently, of course, but a sense of proportion is needed.
    Culling, fine, hunting this is not. She seems like an idiot.
    I don't have any ethical objections to hunting a sheep.
    But it isn't hunting. There are sheep in the field next to my house. You could literally walk up to one and slit its throat. They require no skill, pose no challenge.
    If she intends it to be eaten then I have no objection to her actions.
    I object to calling it hunting though. It is simply killing.
    You may just as easily call a slaughterman in an abattoir a hunter.
    Did some farmer in Scotland really allow her to shoot this animal for money? Is this some new money-making venture for hard-pressed sheep farmers?

    Something about it doesn’t smell quite right.
  • stodge said:

    stodge said:


    There has to be a balance but paying more in welfare is not popular

    It is clear Hammond has to deliver 20 billion to the NHS by 2020 but I would also expect to see modest cuts to ordinary tax payers

    Supporting vulnerable adults and children is not "welfare".

    It's what a civilised society does .
    I agree and that has to be the safety net that government cater for in all cases
    The problem is it's up to local Councils including well-run Conservative Counties like East Sussex and Surrey to pick up the tab. Government has walked away boasting about how much the deficit has fallen when all that has happened is the budgetary pressure has gone elsewhere.

    I'd like to hear a Conservative support Conservative Councils rather than leaving it to this Liberal Democrat to stand up for them.
    I do support all councils but you have to admit that the Chief Executives and others are very overpaid, they have many wasting assets, and are generally unimaginitive

    Social care is a problem and the government have provided more funds for this plus an ability to increae council tax.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
    I agree. It's American, triumphantist and dickish, particularly the gloating, but this sort of culling goes on all the time, and I have no problem with such animals being shot for meat either.

    Others will disagree vehmently, of course, but a sense of proportion is needed.
    Culling, fine, hunting this is not. She seems like an idiot.
    I don't have any ethical objections to hunting a sheep.
    But it isn't hunting. There are sheep in the field next to my house. You could literally walk up to one and slit its throat. They require no skill, pose no challenge.
    If she intends it to be eaten then I have no objection to her actions.
    I object to calling it hunting though. It is simply killing.
    You may just as easily call a slaughterman in an abattoir a hunter.
    Are you saying it's because you baa-ly have to make any effort?
    Oh no! He’s off.

    You should be feeling sheepish at that baa-thetic effort.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Cyclefree said:

    These Tory leads in the polls are very interesting.

    One theory is that the more complicated and dicey the politics and economics look over one thing, for example, the less likely voters will be to experiment with another, like Corbynism.

    May also looks like a sane woman trying to do the best job she can, tenaciously. That probably helps her too.

    Or they could just be will o’ the wisp leads, there simply because all we ever hear about are the Tories. Labour has been silent. That will change once/if a Brexit deal is done, a fortiori if there is No Deal and in an election campaign I would not be surprised to see Labour run rings around the Tories. Again.

    I would not, if I were you, take comfort from these leads.

    Other than Brexit and not Corbyn, what do the Tories stand for?
    This one stands for honesty, responsible finance, compassion, responsible state bodies, encouraging success, low taxes, and sensible policies on the environment. Brexit is a huge distraction almost impossible to predict
    +1
    Brexit undermines everything else. We should be focused on many of the issues you cite but alas the fundamentalists are steering us toward the rocks. You cannot give the right or left one victory as they just want more and more, it is the same with Brexiteers.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    edited October 2018

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
    I agree. It's American, triumphantist and dickish, particularly the gloating, but this sort of culling goes on all the time, and I have no problem with such animals being shot for meat either.

    Others will disagree vehmently, of course, but a sense of proportion is needed.
    Culling, fine, hunting this is not. She seems like an idiot.
    I don't have any ethical objections to hunting a sheep.
    Sheep aren't huntable animals. I have no ethical objections to this lady killing the sheep, I have an objection to her calling it hunting.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    She'd do better killing a few badgers really.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910


    This one stands for honesty, responsible finance, compassion, responsible state bodies, encouraging success, low taxes, and sensible policies on the environment. Brexit is a huge distraction almost impossible to predict

    All entirely laudable but to what extent do you think this Government's record matches these lofty aspirations? The Conservatives have been in Government since 2010 - I don't think in terms of "responsible finance", "compassion" and "responsible State bodies" (whatever that means) it has comported itself that well.

    As for Brexit, to be blunt, I don't think the A50 negotiations have been conducted that well but as the Lithuanian President put it so succinctly last week:

    "We do not know what they want, they do not know themselves what they really want - that's the problem."
  • MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
    I agree. It's American, triumphantist and dickish, particularly the gloating, but this sort of culling goes on all the time, and I have no problem with such animals being shot for meat either.

    Others will disagree vehmently, of course, but a sense of proportion is needed.
    Phew, thought for a moment that you were going to propose a XXX thousand march in defence of it.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    stodge said:

    stodge said:


    There has to be a balance but paying more in welfare is not popular

    It is clear Hammond has to deliver 20 billion to the NHS by 2020 but I would also expect to see modest cuts to ordinary tax payers

    Supporting vulnerable adults and children is not "welfare".

    It's what a civilised society does .
    I agree and that has to be the safety net that government cater for in all cases
    The problem is it's up to local Councils including well-run Conservative Counties like East Sussex and Surrey to pick up the tab. Government has walked away boasting about how much the deficit has fallen when all that has happened is the budgetary pressure has gone elsewhere.

    I'd like to hear a Conservative support Conservative Councils rather than leaving it to this Liberal Democrat to stand up for them.
    I do support all councils but you have to admit that the Chief Executives and others are very overpaid, they have many wasting assets, and are generally unimaginitive

    Social care is a problem and the government have provided more funds for this plus an ability to increae council tax.
    Excuse me! East Sussex? You must be having a personal breakdown. I have family friends there, and from what they say, you are a poor example of the human species. .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
    I agree. It's American, triumphantist and dickish, particularly the gloating, but this sort of culling goes on all the time, and I have no problem with such animals being shot for meat either.

    Others will disagree vehmently, of course, but a sense of proportion is needed.
    Culling, fine, hunting this is not. She seems like an idiot.
    I don't have any ethical objections to hunting a sheep.
    But it isn't hunting. There are sheep in the field next to my house. You could literally walk up to one and slit its throat. They require no skill, pose no challenge.
    If she intends it to be eaten then I have no objection to her actions.
    I object to calling it hunting though. It is simply killing.
    You may just as easily call a slaughterman in an abattoir a hunter.
    Are you saying it's because you baa-ly have to make any effort?
    Oh no! He’s off.

    You should be feeling sheepish at that baa-thetic effort.
    An eight week half term plus a double ear infection has shorn me of all my energy and characteristic brilliance.

    Both may dog me all the way to Christmas. It is a worry.

    Have a good evening.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    OchEye said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:


    There has to be a balance but paying more in welfare is not popular

    It is clear Hammond has to deliver 20 billion to the NHS by 2020 but I would also expect to see modest cuts to ordinary tax payers

    Supporting vulnerable adults and children is not "welfare".

    It's what a civilised society does .
    I agree and that has to be the safety net that government cater for in all cases
    The problem is it's up to local Councils including well-run Conservative Counties like East Sussex and Surrey to pick up the tab. Government has walked away boasting about how much the deficit has fallen when all that has happened is the budgetary pressure has gone elsewhere.

    I'd like to hear a Conservative support Conservative Councils rather than leaving it to this Liberal Democrat to stand up for them.
    I do support all councils but you have to admit that the Chief Executives and others are very overpaid, they have many wasting assets, and are generally unimaginitive

    Social care is a problem and the government have provided more funds for this plus an ability to increae council tax.
    Excuse me! East Sussex? You must be having a personal breakdown. I have family friends there, and from what they say, you are a poor example of the human species. .
    I really must be feeling ill. That post reads as a run of ridiculous non-sequiturs.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    MaxPB said:

    She'd do better killing a few badgers really.

    Or foxes. Slippery little bastards
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910


    I do support all councils but you have to admit that the Chief Executives and others are very overpaid, they have many wasting assets, and are generally unimaginitive

    Social care is a problem and the government have provided more funds for this plus an ability to increae council tax.

    County Council CEOs are very highly paid but it's the Councils that set the pay rates and they would argue (I imagine) you need to set appropriate pay levels to get quality candidates.

    I don't know what a "wasting asset" is - if you mean land and buildings I doubt there's a pot of gold at the end of any Council property estate rainbow.

    You say the Government has "promised funds for social care" but how much and when? An extra 2% precept is a drop in the ocean for what is actually needed and if the Government contribution is reduced in real terms the Councils are forced to apply the maximum increase to stand still.

  • stodge said:


    I do support all councils but you have to admit that the Chief Executives and others are very overpaid, they have many wasting assets, and are generally unimaginitive

    Social care is a problem and the government have provided more funds for this plus an ability to increae council tax.

    County Council CEOs are very highly paid but it's the Councils that set the pay rates and they would argue (I imagine) you need to set appropriate pay levels to get quality candidates.

    I don't know what a "wasting asset" is - if you mean land and buildings I doubt there's a pot of gold at the end of any Council property estate rainbow.

    You say the Government has "promised funds for social care" but how much and when? An extra 2% precept is a drop in the ocean for what is actually needed and if the Government contribution is reduced in real terms the Councils are forced to apply the maximum increase to stand still.

    Compared to CEOs of similar-sized private sector companies, council CEOs are not highly paid.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
    I agree. It's American, triumphantist and dickish, particularly the gloating, but this sort of culling goes on all the time, and I have no problem with such animals being shot for meat either.

    Others will disagree vehmently, of course, but a sense of proportion is needed.
    Culling, fine, hunting this is not. She seems like an idiot.
    I don't have any ethical objections to hunting a sheep.
    But it isn't hunting. There are sheep in the field next to my house. You could literally walk up to one and slit its throat. They require no skill, pose no challenge.
    If she intends it to be eaten then I have no objection to her actions.
    I object to calling it hunting though. It is simply killing.
    You may just as easily call a slaughterman in an abattoir a hunter.
    Are you saying it's because you baa-ly have to make any effort?
    Oh no! He’s off.

    You should be feeling sheepish at that baa-thetic effort.
    An eight week half term plus a double ear infection has shorn me of all my energy and characteristic brilliance.

    Both may dog me all the way to Christmas. It is a worry.

    Have a good evening.
    Eight week half term?! Wow, even I could have liked school if we'd had those :wink:
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    ydoethur said:

    OchEye said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:


    There has to be a balance but paying more in welfare is not popular

    It is clear Hammond has to deliver 20 billion to the NHS by 2020 but I would also expect to see modest cuts to ordinary tax payers

    Supporting vulnerable adults and children is not "welfare".

    It's what a civilised society does .
    I agree and that has to be the safety net that government cater for in all cases
    The problem is it's up to local Councils including well-run Conservative Counties like East Sussex and Surrey to pick up the tab. Government has walked away boasting about how much the deficit has fallen when all that has happened is the budgetary pressure has gone elsewhere.

    I'd like to hear a Conservative support Conservative Councils rather than leaving it to this Liberal Democrat to stand up for them.
    I do support all councils but you have to admit that the Chief Executives and others are very overpaid, they have many wasting assets, and are generally unimaginitive

    Social care is a problem and the government have provided more funds for this plus an ability to increae council tax.
    Excuse me! East Sussex? You must be having a personal breakdown. I have family friends there, and from what they say, you are a poor example of the human species. .
    I really must be feeling ill. That post reads as a run of ridiculous non-sequiturs.
    Not when they have difficulty in getting services to help one with advanced dementia and who will experience severe memory loss over the next 3 or 4 years before death, while her 80 year old husband has to cope with the short time (15 minutes if lucky) or non appearance of carers .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:
    What's next? Crocodile tears over a rabbit? A pheasant?

    Is it permissible to hunt anything these days?
    It's not really much of a challenge. The combat gear certainly isn't necessary...
    I agree. It's American, triumphantist and dickish, particularly the gloating, but this sort of culling goes on all the time, and I have no problem with such animals being shot for meat either.

    Others will disagree vehmently, of course, but a sense of proportion is needed.
    Culling, fine, hunting this is not. She seems like an idiot.
    I don't have any ethical objections to hunting a sheep.
    But it isn't hunting. There are sheep in the field next to my house. You could literally walk up to one and slit its throat. They require no skill, pose no challenge.
    If she intends it to be eaten then I have no objection to her actions.
    I object to calling it hunting though. It is simply killing.
    You may just as easily call a slaughterman in an abattoir a hunter.
    Are you saying it's because you baa-ly have to make any effort?
    Oh no! He’s off.

    You should be feeling sheepish at that baa-thetic effort.
    An eight week half term plus a double ear infection has shorn me of all my energy and characteristic brilliance.

    Both may dog me all the way to Christmas. It is a worry.

    Have a good evening.
    Eight week half term?! Wow, even I could have liked school if we'd had those :wink:
    I suggested to a former principal of mine that we should have teaching in the holidays and holidays in the teaching weeks.

    Alas, it has never caught on.

    Nos da.
  • stodge said:


    I do support all councils but you have to admit that the Chief Executives and others are very overpaid, they have many wasting assets, and are generally unimaginitive

    Social care is a problem and the government have provided more funds for this plus an ability to increae council tax.

    County Council CEOs are very highly paid but it's the Councils that set the pay rates and they would argue (I imagine) you need to set appropriate pay levels to get quality candidates.

    I don't know what a "wasting asset" is - if you mean land and buildings I doubt there's a pot of gold at the end of any Council property estate rainbow.

    You say the Government has "promised funds for social care" but how much and when? An extra 2% precept is a drop in the ocean for what is actually needed and if the Government contribution is reduced in real terms the Councils are forced to apply the maximum increase to stand still.

    Here in Aberconwy BC they are proposing a 12% increase in council tax and we have bin collections once every four weeks. And Wales labour get more per head from central government than England
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    On topic: the irony of that 2nd sentence in the DM article. Have they no shame at all?

    (Sorry, appreciate that's a silly question.)
  • OchEye said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:


    There has to be a balance but paying more in welfare is not popular

    It is clear Hammond has to deliver 20 billion to the NHS by 2020 but I would also expect to see modest cuts to ordinary tax payers

    Supporting vulnerable adults and children is not "welfare".

    It's what a civilised society does .
    I agree and that has to be the safety net that government cater for in all cases
    The problem is it's up to local Councils including well-run Conservative Counties like East Sussex and Surrey to pick up the tab. Government has walked away boasting about how much the deficit has fallen when all that has happened is the budgetary pressure has gone elsewhere.

    I'd like to hear a Conservative support Conservative Councils rather than leaving it to this Liberal Democrat to stand up for them.
    I do support all councils but you have to admit that the Chief Executives and others are very overpaid, they have many wasting assets, and are generally unimaginitive

    Social care is a problem and the government have provided more funds for this plus an ability to increae council tax.
    Excuse me! East Sussex? You must be having a personal breakdown. I have family friends there, and from what they say, you are a poor example of the human species. .
    Excuse me. That is unwarranted and again falls into the category of unnecessary abusive language.

    I do not live in England and do not have any knowledge of the council you refer to
  • Alistair said:
    We had sheep on the farm where I grew up. Sheep are one the few animals who can get stuck on their back: we had to go round and put any that had done that back on their feet. They are slightly brighter than their own natural prey. They would be as hard to hunt as your average tree.

    On the other hand, I have spent some time working in a abattoir and if I were a sheep I would prefer to be shot unawares in a field than have to go though a slaughter line.
  • Scott_P said:

    Alistair said:

    Yep, well, this is a thing.

    That's a big step up.

    She previously successfully stalked a rabbit with a high powered rifle...
    Rabbits are much harder to hunt.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,537
    ydoethur said:



    An eight week half term plus a double ear infection has shorn me of all my energy and characteristic brilliance.

    Both may dog me all the way to Christmas. It is a worry.

    Have a good evening.

    Ugh, sympathies. Hope you're better soon.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    OchEye said:

    ydoethur said:

    OchEye said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:


    There has to be a balance but paying more in welfare is not popular

    It is clear Hammond has to deliver 20 billion to the NHS by 2020 but I would also expect to see modest cuts to ordinary tax payers

    Supporting vulnerable adults and children is not "welfare".

    It's what a civilised society does .
    I agree and that has to be the safety net that government cater for in all cases
    The problem is it's up to local Councils including well-run Conservative Counties like East Sussex and Surrey to pick up the tab. Government has walked away boasting about how much the deficit has fallen when all that has happened is the budgetary pressure has gone elsewhere.

    I'd like to hear a Conservative support Conservative Councils rather than leaving it to this Liberal Democrat to stand up for them.
    I do support all councils but you have to admit that the Chief Executives and others are very overpaid, they have many wasting assets, and are generally unimaginitive

    Social care is a problem and the government have provided more funds for this plus an ability to increae council tax.
    Excuse me! East Sussex? You must be having a personal breakdown. I have family friends there, and from what they say, you are a poor example of the human species. .
    I really must be feeling ill. That post reads as a run of ridiculous non-sequiturs.
    Not when they have difficulty in getting services to help one with advanced dementia and who will experience severe memory loss over the next 3 or 4 years before death, while her 80 year old husband has to cope with the short time (15 minutes if lucky) or non appearance of carers .
    Edited: Been there seen it, done it, got the hair made t-shirt, and there is no way I want to go down that route. Having a catheter stuck up my penis, nappies changed and not knowing how to speak, eat, piss, shit or walk or know anything about my family....
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Bugger... it couldn't last....

    Mea culpa.

    Lovely weather for the time of year...
    Well, we haven't Brexited yet...

    :)
    I blame AGW.
    Asymmetrical Global Warming?
    I had lunch in Gaucho today, there were some out there saying Gaucho and their customers were responsible for global warming 'cause of the beef they serve.

    I had the swordfish.
    Brave choice, given all the mercury in it, and the research suggesting it doubles your chances of ending up like Stephen Hawking...
    I am sure TSE would love to be a genius.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    stodge said:


    I do support all councils but you have to admit that the Chief Executives and others are very overpaid, they have many wasting assets, and are generally unimaginitive

    Social care is a problem and the government have provided more funds for this plus an ability to increae council tax.

    County Council CEOs are very highly paid but it's the Councils that set the pay rates and they would argue (I imagine) you need to set appropriate pay levels to get quality candidates.

    I don't know what a "wasting asset" is - if you mean land and buildings I doubt there's a pot of gold at the end of any Council property estate rainbow.

    You say the Government has "promised funds for social care" but how much and when? An extra 2% precept is a drop in the ocean for what is actually needed and if the Government contribution is reduced in real terms the Councils are forced to apply the maximum increase to stand still.

    Here in Aberconwy BC they are proposing a 12% increase in council tax and we have bin collections once every four weeks. And Wales labour get more per head from central government than England
    Isn't that a Tory led council? What has Welsh Labour to do with your bins or your Council Tax?
  • NEW THREAD

  • dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    I do support all councils but you have to admit that the Chief Executives and others are very overpaid, they have many wasting assets, and are generally unimaginitive

    Social care is a problem and the government have provided more funds for this plus an ability to increae council tax.

    County Council CEOs are very highly paid but it's the Councils that set the pay rates and they would argue (I imagine) you need to set appropriate pay levels to get quality candidates.

    I don't know what a "wasting asset" is - if you mean land and buildings I doubt there's a pot of gold at the end of any Council property estate rainbow.

    You say the Government has "promised funds for social care" but how much and when? An extra 2% precept is a drop in the ocean for what is actually needed and if the Government contribution is reduced in real terms the Councils are forced to apply the maximum increase to stand still.

    Here in Aberconwy BC they are proposing a 12% increase in council tax and we have bin collections once every four weeks. And Wales labour get more per head from central government than England
    Isn't that a Tory led council? What has Welsh Labour to do with your bins or your Council Tax?
    No it is coalition of parties.

    The argument has been central government are starving local councils of funding. The same in Wales run by labour who receive more per head than those in England. The council is in deficit starved of funds from Cardiff
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,141
    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:
    Isn't that a goat?
    Ohgod ohgod ohgod I might get this wrong.

    1) It's a sheep, not a goat
    2) It might be a Swaledale, but the legs are the wrong colour
    3) So I think it's a Scottish Blackface, which fits the area.
    4) Don't hate me if it's wrong (scurries away and hides)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:British_Isles_livestock
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    ydoethur said:



    An eight week half term plus a double ear infection has shorn me of all my energy and characteristic brilliance.

    Both may dog me all the way to Christmas. It is a worry.

    Have a good evening.

    Ugh, sympathies. Hope you're better soon.
    Hope it's not labrythinitus (spelling)? Been there, like being drunk without the alcohol intake. Check the drugs you get prescribed though on the Internet. One of the ones I was told to have had a very high suicide rate. (Needless to say, and obviously very disappointingly for some, I flushed them away). It does end, but get a walking stick for possible ambush attacks, so as to have a stable tripod stance.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,993
    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    She'd do better killing a few badgers really.

    Or foxes. Slippery little bastards
    The last fox I saw was about 500 metres from Old Street tube station. I suspect stalking and shooting at one there might be a bit more of a challenge!
  • ABLAABLABLAABL Posts: 23
    A Deal or Theresa May is toppled? I think a deal as UK back down and DUP shafted eventually…

    https://www.abitleftandabitlost.com/posts/are-we-closer-to-a-brexit-deal-or-theresa-mays-political-demise
This discussion has been closed.