President of Exeter Conservative Association calls for a united Ireland.
He should not be in the Conservative and Unionist party then, even if I do agree with SM and CU for NI and FTA for GB
So you're not a unionist and want to dissolve the union? Under your logic you shouldn't be in the Conservative and Unionist Party either.
If your proposal goes ahead the union would already be dead. Which is why its opposed by unionists.
Given NI outlaws gay marriage and abortion it hardly mirrors GB on everything now anyway
That is their choice though. They could legalise it if they chose to.
Under your proposal they would be a colony of the EU. Forced to maintain EU laws but given no say in them.
Amazing that Conservative and Unionist party member @HYUFD perceives the Ireland-Northern Ireland border as more important than the sea between N Ireland and remainder of UK (Which isn't an international border)
In my experience people are absolutely bored to tears about Brexit. They do not appreciate people on either side making life even more difficult for the PM, whether it is the second vote nonsense or the idiocies of IDS or the ERG. I am increasingly convinced that almost any deal that May brings back to the Commons will be voted through on this basis.
I think you're right. The only issue that would cut through is if freedom of movement continued, that's a tangible thing that I think people care about.
All this blather about the single market, customs union doesn't mean much to ordinary people, although of course the impacts of those questions have the potential to be very politically significant.
I don't think even freedom of movement is as important as all that. That's not to say it is
On topic I think that the Mail has got this pretty much right. Everyone knows May is going to produce a shit deal but I think the vast majority recognise it is still much better than no deal and that she is doing her (slightly disappointing) best. We saw this in the leadership polling yesterday where she reached the giddy heights of beating don't know for PM and of course lengthened her lead on the pathetic Corbyn.
snip
From May's point of view, she really needs to get on with it. The situation is febrile and changes of mood are entirely possible. The sooner she can get her deal signed off and in front of the Commons the better. I think the risks for her increase the longer this drags on.
If eople are bored to tears with Brexit, why did we have the second largest demonstration in British history just a few days ago?
Brexiteers may well be dividing between the bored and the bonkers, Remainers much less so.
You didn’t.
When numbers are confirmed it will be shown to be smaller than the Countryside Alliance March of 2004.
Happy Mole Day
I am not sure whose job it is to confirm numbers on these kinds of thing or how they do it. The photos from the helicopters are pretty consistent with the estimates of around three quarters of a million people. There were more coaches booked for it from West Sussex than for the Countryside Alliance though. West Sussex is not the most remainy of places but it is very sporty. So I'd be surprised if your prediction is proved correct.
On topic I think that the Mail has got this pretty much right. Everyone knows May is going to produce a shit deal but I think the vast majority recognise it is still much better than no deal and that she is doing her (slightly disappointing) best. We saw this in the leadership polling yesterday where she reached the giddy heights of beating don't know for PM and of course lengthened her lead on the pathetic Corbyn.
In my experience people are absolutely bored to tears about Brexit. They do not appreciate people on either side making life even more difficult for the PM, whether it is the second vote nonsense or the idiocies of IDS or the ERG. I am increasingly convinced that almost any deal that May brings back to the Commons will be voted through on this basis.
From May's point of view, she really needs to get on with it. The situation is febrile and changes of mood are entirely possible. The sooner she can get her deal signed off and in front of the Commons the better. I think the risks for her increase the longer this drags on.
If eople are bored to tears with Brexit, why did we have the second largest demonstration in British history just a few days ago?
Brexiteers may well be dividing between the bored and the bonkers, Remainers much less so.
When numbers are confirmed it will be shown to be smaller than the Countryside Alliance March of 2004.
We'll never know.
The Police have said they 'can't estimate the numbers' but in general "Police Estimates" are typically around half (or less) than the organisers estimate.
The biggest demo on record - against the Iraq war - was estimated by the organisers at 2 million - the police thought 750,000 - and I don't think anyone is claiming the Brexit demo was that big. So if we apply that rough & ready 'rule of thumb' perhaps 350-375,000 took part - which would put it a shade under the Countryside Alliance at 400,000 (a rare example of where organiser and police estimates coincide):
Just on the Mail and their stance, a few things to bear in mind:
1. Viscount Rothermere controls the shots; 2. His wealth is directly tied into the value of his DMGT shares; 3. The health of DMGT's newspaper business is important for the share price. The shares tend to react badly to weakening circulation / advertising numbers (stating the obvious here but...) 4. Around 25% of DMGT's profits including its Euromoney associate come from newspapers. Ironically, because DMGT has sold off stakes in Zoopla and in Euromoney and made other disposals, newspapers are still important despite the profits declines. 5. Losses in newspaper revenues have a high drop through to profits (roughly 2/3) on both circulation and advertising. Rising paper costs will also hit the newspapers next year.
Putting all the above into the mix, my view is that Rothermere is willing to give Greig the chance to go with a more loyalist line to May but if there is any prolonged signs that his stance is hurting the newspapers on circulation he will be forced to turn around pretty sharpish. The signs don't look great - Daily Mail circulation was down 11% yoy in September and the Mail on Sunday down 13%. That is probably average to slightly worse than the market in general (the Times, e.g. is down 5%, the Telegraph was down 23%) but the Mail always prided itself that its circulation declines were lower than the market average. What might also worry the Mail is that Mail Online readers were down 19% yoy, much worse than the other newspaper websites.
I personally don't think Rothermere will give Greig much more than a few months with his stance if there are signs the loyalist stance is driving away readers (by the way, I don't think they are going to the Express, their behaviour is a bit more complex).
Also worth noting that the Express, which is behind the ERG, is owned by....the pro-Labour supporting Reach (the ex-Trinity Mirror). The fact the new management haven't put pressure on the editors to change the stance is a sign they are worried about the circulation / advertising loss.
Surely those DM yoy declines would reflect Dacre's editorial position?
Given both DM and SM down by similar amounts it's not got much to do with Brexit imo.
I was once on a stag weekend on the Welsh coast. Things got a bit lively in the pub we were in and a young holidaymaker got out a knife and started brandishing at one of our party, yelling "I'm going to stab you through the heart". The threatened man looked at the lad with a mixture of pity and contempt and said "if you were going to stab me, you'd stab me. And you definitely wouldn't say you were going to stab me through the heart". The tension dissipated from there.
The lurid language of the ERG brings to mind the same overblown empty threat.
Your mate was rather luckier than mine then.
Simon was stabbed through the heart a few hours after a seemingly minor altercation in a Welsh pub a few weeks ago.
Utter rubbish. Even most Protestants in Northern Ireland want to stay in the single market and customs union
It is No Dealers like you who risk destroying the Union as polling shows Scots could vote for independence if No Deal and a majority of Northern Ireland voters would vote for a United Ireland if a hard border in Ireland
Then let them elect people to choose that. It is democracy. Forcing them to against what they have elected is not.
Hypothetical polling shows nothing other than your obsession with hypothetical polling.
I think the question should be put to Northern Ireland, perhaps near the end of the transition period as to whether they'd prefer to rejoin Ireland or carry on as part of the UK. The (I assume all UK) backstop can't last forever.
On topic I think that the Mail has got this pretty much right. Everyone knows May is going to produce a shit deal but I think the vast majority recognise it is still much better than no deal and that she is doing her (slightly disappointing) best. We saw this in the leadership polling yesterday where she reached the giddy heights of beating don't know for PM and of course lengthened her lead on the pathetic Corbyn.
In my experience people are absolutely bored to tears about Brexit. They do not appreciate people on either side making life even more difficult for the PM, whether it is the second vote nonsense or the idiocies of IDS or the ERG. I am increasingly convinced that almost any deal that May brings back to the Commons will be voted through on this basis.
From May's point of view, she really needs to get on with it. The situation is febrile and changes of mood are entirely possible. The sooner she can get her deal signed off and in front of the Commons the better. I think the risks for her increase the longer this drags on.
If eople are bored to tears with Brexit, why did we have the second largest demonstration in British history just a few days ago?
Brexiteers may well be dividing between the bored and the bonkers, Remainers much less so.
When numbers are confirmed it will be shown to be smaller than the Countryside Alliance March of 2004.
We'll never know.
The Police have said they 'can't estimate the numbers' but in general "Police Estimates" are typically around half (or less) than the organisers estimate.
The biggest demo on record - against the Iraq war - was estimated by the organisers at 2 million - the police thought 750,000 - and I don't think anyone is claiming the Brexit demo was that big. So if we apply that rough & ready 'rule of thumb' perhaps 350-375,000 took part - which would put it a shade under the Countryside Alliance at 400,000 (a rare example of where organiser and police estimates coincide):
President of Exeter Conservative Association calls for a united Ireland.
He should not be in the Conservative and Unionist party then, even if I do agree with SM and CU for NI and FTA for GB
So you're not a unionist and want to dissolve the union? Under your logic you shouldn't be in the Conservative and Unionist Party either.
If your proposal goes ahead the union would already be dead. Which is why its opposed by unionists.
Given NI outlaws gay marriage and abortion it hardly mirrors GB on everything now anyway
That is their choice though. They could legalise it if they chose to.
Under your proposal they would be a colony of the EU. Forced to maintain EU laws but given no say in them.
NI is already in the EU, that hasn't forced them to legalise gay marriage and abortion to date.
No but it does force them to obey EU laws and regulations. Currently they get a say in what those laws are but under the proposals they won't. They won't have any MEPs, votes in Council or anything else.
I thought colonialism had been condemned to the past.
Completely off topic, but does anyone know how I could get hold of front pages of newspapers that predate the internet?
I remember they used to have them on those awful microfiche scanners at a local library, in the dim and distant. I specifically wanted to check how rigid The Times was on its adherence to no international news in the first 12 or so pages. Sure enough, you had to go to page 13 before there was any mention of the assassination of JFK.....
Mr. P, that does rather sound like someone with a leadership axe to grind.
Mr. Thompson, that's British colonialism, which is evil. Vassalage to the EU is like having your own fluffy cloud in Heaven. It's perfect, because you get to follow the divine way of God.
And what sort of low life politician uses such language towards either the kid or his family, or assumes that they have any insight into the lives of a family they have never spoken to ?
Oh, Stewart Jackson.
Stewart Jackson did pollute pbc's pages with his presence at one time. I remember one comment of his which said, in response to a comment objecting to a typically rude reply of his, that "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen". He left. (and of course, it wasn't his kitchen).
Utter rubbish. Even most Protestants in Northern Ireland want to stay in the single market and customs union
It is No Dealers like you who risk destroying the Union as polling shows Scots could vote for independence if No Deal and a majority of Northern Ireland voters would vote for a United Ireland if a hard border in Ireland
Then let them elect people to choose that. It is democracy. Forcing them to against what they have elected is not.
Hypothetical polling shows nothing other than your obsession with hypothetical polling.
Isn't all polling hypothetical?
Yes and it should all be taken with a pinch of salt not slavishly followed.
President of Exeter Conservative Association calls for a united Ireland.
He should not be in the Conservative and Unionist party then, even if I do agree with SM and CU for NI and FTA for GB
So you're not a unionist and want to dissolve the union? Under your logic you shouldn't be in the Conservative and Unionist Party either.
If your proposal goes ahead the union would already be dead. Which is why its opposed by unionists.
Given NI outlaws gay marriage and abortion it hardly mirrors GB on everything now anyway
That is their choice though. They could legalise it if they chose to.
Under your proposal they would be a colony of the EU. Forced to maintain EU laws but given no say in them.
NI is already in the EU, that hasn't forced them to legalise gay marriage and abortion to date.
No but it does force them to obey EU laws and regulations. Currently they get a say in what those laws are but under the proposals they won't. They won't have any MEPs, votes in Council or anything else.
I thought colonialism had been condemned to the past.
Well there we have it - the joys of Brexit, eh? Turning us all from shared rule makers to disenfranchised rule takers.
Have you ever noticed that when a project starts to go badly, suddenly everything starts going wrong. Brexit is moving into the 'how do we get out of this mess?' phase.
President of Exeter Conservative Association calls for a united Ireland.
He should not be in the Conservative and Unionist party then, even if I do agree with SM and CU for NI and FTA for GB
So you're not a unionist and want to dissolve the union? Under your logic you shouldn't be in the Conservative and Unionist Party either.
If your proposal goes ahead the union would already be dead. Which is why its opposed by unionists.
Given NI outlaws gay marriage and abortion it hardly mirrors GB on everything now anyway
That is their choice though. They could legalise it if they chose to.
Under your proposal they would be a colony of the EU. Forced to maintain EU laws but given no say in them.
NI is already in the EU, that hasn't forced them to legalise gay marriage and abortion to date.
No but it does force them to obey EU laws and regulations. Currently they get a say in what those laws are but under the proposals they won't. They won't have any MEPs, votes in Council or anything else.
I thought colonialism had been condemned to the past.
You've not looked at Africa very recently, have you?
Completely off topic, but does anyone know how I could get hold of front pages of newspapers that predate the internet?
I remember they used to have them on those awful microfiche scanners at a local library, in the dim and distant. I specifically wanted to check how rigid The Times was on its adherence to no international news in the first 12 or so pages. Sure enough, you had to go to page 13 before there was any mention of the assassination of JFK.....
I knew that the Times didn't have news on its front page in the old days but I'd never heard about that before.
Did they have restrictions as to where the sport pages were ?
And what sort of low life politician uses such language towards either the kid or his family, or assumes that they have any insight into the lives of a family they have never spoken to ?
Oh, Stewart Jackson.
Stewart Jackson did pollute pbc's pages with his presence at one time. I remember one comment of his which said, in response to a comment objecting to a typically rude reply of his, that "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen". He left. (and of course, it wasn't his kitchen).
President of Exeter Conservative Association calls for a united Ireland.
He should not be in the Conservative and Unionist party then, even if I do agree with SM and CU for NI and FTA for GB
So you're not a unionist and want to dissolve the union? Under your logic you shouldn't be in the Conservative and Unionist Party either.
If your proposal goes ahead the union would already be dead. Which is why its opposed by unionists.
Given NI outlaws gay marriage and abortion it hardly mirrors GB on everything now anyway
That is their choice though. They could legalise it if they chose to.
Under your proposal they would be a colony of the EU. Forced to maintain EU laws but given no say in them.
NI is already in the EU, that hasn't forced them to legalise gay marriage and abortion to date.
No but it does force them to obey EU laws and regulations. Currently they get a say in what those laws are but under the proposals they won't. They won't have any MEPs, votes in Council or anything else.
I thought colonialism had been condemned to the past.
You've not looked at Africa very recently, have you?
Mr. P, that does rather sound like someone with a leadership axe to grind.
Mr. Thompson, that's British colonialism, which is evil. Vassalage to the EU is like having your own fluffy cloud in Heaven. It's perfect, because you get to follow the divine way of God.
The EU doesn't have vassals. It is a voluntary association of countries who choose to work together by agreed rules for mutual advantage, and which has promoted peace and prosperity very successfully. Glad I could clear that up for you.
I was once on a stag weekend on the Welsh coast. Things got a bit lively in the pub we were in and a young holidaymaker got out a knife and started brandishing at one of our party, yelling "I'm going to stab you through the heart". The threatened man looked at the lad with a mixture of pity and contempt and said "if you were going to stab me, you'd stab me. And you definitely wouldn't say you were going to stab me through the heart". The tension dissipated from there.
The lurid language of the ERG brings to mind the same overblown empty threat.
Your mate was rather luckier than mine then.
Simon was stabbed through the heart a few hours after a seemingly minor altercation in a Welsh pub a few weeks ago.
Completely off topic, but does anyone know how I could get hold of front pages of newspapers that predate the internet?
I remember they used to have them on those awful microfiche scanners at a local library, in the dim and distant. I specifically wanted to check how rigid The Times was on its adherence to no international news in the first 12 or so pages. Sure enough, you had to go to page 13 before there was any mention of the assassination of JFK.....
I knew that the Times didn't have news on its front page in the old days but I'd never heard about that before.
Did they have restrictions as to where the sport pages were ?
I'm sure a gentleman would have had a specific sporting newspaper delivered, if he wanted to see what competiton his nag was facing in the 2.15 at Kemptown....
President of Exeter Conservative Association calls for a united Ireland.
He should not be in the Conservative and Unionist party then, even if I do agree with SM and CU for NI and FTA for GB
So you're not a unionist and want to dissolve the union? Under your logic you shouldn't be in the Conservative and Unionist Party either.
If your proposal goes ahead the union would already be dead. Which is why its opposed by unionists.
Given NI outlaws gay marriage and abortion it hardly mirrors GB on everything now anyway
That is their choice though. They could legalise it if they chose to.
Under your proposal they would be a colony of the EU. Forced to maintain EU laws but given no say in them.
NI is already in the EU, that hasn't forced them to legalise gay marriage and abortion to date.
No but it does force them to obey EU laws and regulations. Currently they get a say in what those laws are but under the proposals they won't. They won't have any MEPs, votes in Council or anything else.
I thought colonialism had been condemned to the past.
Well there we have it - the joys of Brexit, eh? Turning us all from shared rule makers to disenfranchised rule takers.
I know you're trying to be clever but yes exactly. These proposals are the worst of all worlds.
Remain or leave, just make a bloody decision. Don't leave but then lampoon yourself into maintaining rules from outside.
It's like leaving a train carriage but then trying to grip on from the outside and maintain momentum from outside with the train. Either be on board or get out, one or the other.
Nothing says 'consent of the people' like manifesto promises for a referendum and then, post-election, said promises being discarded by the elected government.
Or re-running a referendum if the wrong result was given last time.
Just on the Mail and their stance, a few things to bear in mind:
1. Viscount Rothermere controls the shots; 2. His wealth is directly tied into the value of his DMGT shares; 3. The health of DMGT's newspaper business is important for the share price. The shares tend to react badly to weakening circulation / advertising numbers (stating the obvious here but...) 4. Around 25% of DMGT's profits including its Euromoney associate come from newspapers. Ironically, because DMGT has sold off stakes in Zoopla and in Euromoney and made other disposals, newspapers are still important despite the profits declines. 5. Losses in newspaper revenues have a high drop through to profits (roughly 2/3) on both circulation and advertising. Rising paper costs will also hit the newspapers next year.
Putting all the above into the mix, my view is that Rothermere is willing to give Greig the chance to go with a more loyalist line to May but if there is any prolonged signs that his stance is hurting the newspapers on circulation he will be forced to turn around pretty sharpish. The signs don't look great - Daily Mail circulation was down 11% yoy in September and the Mail on Sunday down 13%. That is probably average to slightly worse than the market in general (the Times, e.g. is down 5%, the Telegraph was down 23%) but the Mail always prided itself that its circulation declines were lower than the market average. What might also worry the Mail is that Mail Online readers were down 19% yoy, much worse than the other newspaper websites.
I personally don't think Rothermere will give Greig much more than a few months with his stance if there are signs the loyalist stance is driving away readers (by the way, I don't think they are going to the Express, their behaviour is a bit more complex).
Also worth noting that the Express, which is behind the ERG, is owned by....the pro-Labour supporting Reach (the ex-Trinity Mirror). The fact the new management haven't put pressure on the editors to change the stance is a sign they are worried about the circulation / advertising loss.
Surely those DM yoy declines would reflect Dacre's editorial position?
Given both DM and SM down by similar amounts it's not got much to do with Brexit imo.
That is a fair point, although there has been the suggestion that once Greig's appointment was announced, many of the more pro-Brexit journalists rowed back their opinion to curry favour with the new editor.
Typically, in past years, the Mail on Sunday has done worse than the Mail by around 4-5%. The gap has narrowed considerably in the last few months as the Mail declines have sharpened.
Not saying this is Greig related but that, if Rothermere thinks it is an issue, he will force Greig to change tack.
Have you ever noticed that when a project starts to go badly, suddenly everything starts going wrong. Brexit is moving into the 'how do we get out of this mess?' phase.
Reducing DD's chances of becoming PM in the next few months might be the single most useful thing Jackson has done in his political career.
Mr. P, that does rather sound like someone with a leadership axe to grind.
Mr. Thompson, that's British colonialism, which is evil. Vassalage to the EU is like having your own fluffy cloud in Heaven. It's perfect, because you get to follow the divine way of God.
The EU doesn't have vassals. It is a voluntary association of countries who choose to work together by agreed rules for mutual advantage, and which has promoted peace and prosperity very successfully. Glad I could clear that up for you.
For EU members yes and they get a say in the rules.
NI would not under these proposals be an equal member. They would get no say. They would be vassals.
I know you're trying to be clever but yes exactly. These proposals are the worst of all worlds.
Remain or leave, just make a bloody decision. Don't leave but then lampoon yourself into maintaining rules from outside.
It's like leaving a train carriage but then trying to grip on from the outside and maintain momentum from outside with the train. Either be on board or get out, one or the other.
You can't say "remain or leave just make a decision" and then lament that we are rule takers or that the decision is inferior, etc.
I know this sounds super-partisan-y but there really was and is no version of Brexit that would put us in a better position than we are or have been as EU members, with an important seat at the table.
I defy anyone both to understand the supposed sovereignty that we gave up as members, and the cost/benefit of giving up that particular aspect of sovereignty (CFP, say) vs the benefits we received overall as members.
The best anyone can do is say "we'll be worse off in the short term but..." But you don't need a degree in the theory of net present value discounting to understand that we might never make up what we lose in that short term.
The most telling, perhaps depressing comment on PB of recent times was made yesterday, by none other than @rcs1000, who said, as if it was not a matter for debate: "the true tragedy of Brexit...."
Have you ever noticed that when a project starts to go badly, suddenly everything starts going wrong. Brexit is moving into the 'how do we get out of this mess?' phase.
Reducing DD's chances of becoming PM in the next few months might be the single most useful thing Jackson has done in his political career.
DD appointing Jackson confirms DDs lack of judgement. It also puts a question mark over Raab as a key member of that faction.l
Nothing says 'consent of the people' like manifesto promises for a referendum and then, post-election, said promises being discarded by the elected government.
Or re-running a referendum if the wrong result was given last time.
In case 1 I assume you are referring to the proposed Lisbon treaty referendum, which was abandoned because the treaty as originally envisaged had already been rejected by other referenda and had to be rewritten. I am not sure why you find this particular incident so interesting, but even if you object to some aspect of the story you are talking about the UK parliament's activities not the EU itself.
The most recent referendum may or may not be rerun, but that is a matter for the UK not the EU. They have no power to compel us to do so. As I say, it is a voluntary union.
On topic I think that the Mail has got this pretty much right. Everyone knows May is going to produce a shit deal but I think the vast majority recognise it is still much better than no deal and that she is doing her (slightly disappointing) best. We saw this in the leadership polling yesterday where she reached the giddy heights of beating don't know for PM and of course lengthened her lead on the pathetic Corbyn.
In my experience people are absolutely bored to tears about Brexit. They do not appreciate people on either side making life even more difficult for the PM, whether it is the second vote nonsense or the idiocies of IDS or the ERG. I am increasingly convinced that almost any deal that May brings back to the Commons will be voted through on this basis.
From May's point of view, she really needs to get on with it. The situation is febrile and changes of mood are entirely possible. The sooner she can get her deal signed off and in front of the Commons the better. I think the risks for her increase the longer this drags on.
If eople are bored to tears with Brexit, why did we have the second largest demonstration in British history just a few days ago?
Brexiteers may well be dividing between the bored and the bonkers, Remainers much less so.
You didn’t.
When numbers are confirmed it will be shown to be smaller than the Countryside Alliance March of 2004.
You are clearly rattled by this march. And being so only gives a boost to remainers.
Goodness knows why you are if it was just a pointless march with a pathetic turnout. You are giving it credibility.
Just like me you can not have the foggiest idea whether the quoted figures are correct or not, but you sit there typing absolute nonsense.
One thing that is obviously clear is it was very big in terms of previous protests. Whether that means anything is another matter.
Why deny something that is obvious. Doing so makes other posts you make lack credibility.
Mr. Recidivist, were not the Nice and other treaties given multiple plebiscites in countries like France, the Republic of Ireland and the Netherlands?
Lisbon is the Constitution with a new title and different font. That sort of pretence, as if the electorate won't notice, is one of the reasons people who would've otherwise sat on their hands voted to Leave.
I know you're trying to be clever but yes exactly. These proposals are the worst of all worlds.
Remain or leave, just make a bloody decision. Don't leave but then lampoon yourself into maintaining rules from outside.
It's like leaving a train carriage but then trying to grip on from the outside and maintain momentum from outside with the train. Either be on board or get out, one or the other.
You can't say "remain or leave just make a decision" and then lament that we are rule takers or that the decision is inferior, etc.
I know this sounds super-partisan-y but there really was and is no version of Brexit that would put us in a better position than we are or have been as EU members, with an important seat at the table.
I defy anyone both to understand the supposed sovereignty that we gave up as members, and the cost/benefit of giving up that particular aspect of sovereignty (CFP, say) vs the benefits we received overall as members.
The best anyone can do is say "we'll be worse off in the short term but..." But you don't need a degree in the theory of net present value discounting to understand that we might never make up what we lose in that short term.
The most telling, perhaps depressing comment on PB of recent times was made yesterday, by none other than @rcs1000, who said, as if it was not a matter for debate: "the true tragedy of Brexit...."
Yes I can. The choice is really simple.
If you want a seat at the EU table and follow EU rules then Remain. If you want to set your own rules then Leave.
To follow EU rules but have no say in them is insane.
Mr. P, that does rather sound like someone with a leadership axe to grind.
Mr. Thompson, that's British colonialism, which is evil. Vassalage to the EU is like having your own fluffy cloud in Heaven. It's perfect, because you get to follow the divine way of God.
The EU doesn't have vassals. It is a voluntary association of countries who choose to work together by agreed rules for mutual advantage, and which has promoted peace and prosperity very successfully. Glad I could clear that up for you.
Ironically perhaps, if we leave successfully then you will be shown to be correct. If we can’t leave because of an inability to get a decent deal then many will question just how voluntary the association ha become.
On topic I think that the Mail has got this pretty much right. Everyone knows May is going to produce a shit deal but I think the vast majority recognise it is still much better than no deal and that she is doing her (slightly disappointing) best. We saw this in the leadership polling yesterday where she reached the giddy heights of beating don't know for PM and of course lengthened her lead on the pathetic Corbyn.
In my experience people are absolutely bored to tears about Brexit. They do not appreciate people on either side making life even more difficult for the PM, whether it is the second vote nonsense or the idiocies of IDS or the ERG. I am increasingly convinced that almost any deal that May brings back to the Commons will be voted through on this basis.
From May's point of view, she really needs to get on with it. The situation is febrile and changes of mood are entirely possible. The sooner she can get her deal signed off and in front of the Commons the better. I think the risks for her increase the longer this drags on.
If eople are bored to tears with Brexit, why did we have the second largest demonstration in British history just a few days ago?
Brexiteers may well be dividing between the bored and the bonkers, Remainers much less so.
You didn’t.
When numbers are confirmed it will be shown to be smaller than the Countryside Alliance March of 2004.
You are clearly rattled by this march. And being so only gives a boost to remainers.
Goodness knows why you are if it was just a pointless march with a pathetic turnout. You are giving it credibility.
Just like me you can not have the foggiest idea whether the quoted figures are correct or not, but you sit there typing absolute nonsense.
One thing that is obviously clear is it was very big in terms of previous protests. Whether that means anything is another matter.
Why deny something that is obvious. Doing so makes other posts you make lack credibility.
One thing IS obviously clear - the Leave vote was the biggest expression in a single issue vote this country has ever seen.
That a few of those who lost the vote want to go out in the autumn sunshine is for them to decide. But it doesn't impact the original result.
On topic I think that the Mail has got this pretty much right. Everyone knows May is going to produce a shit deal but I think the vast majority recognise it is still much better than no deal and that she is doing her (slightly disappointing) best. We saw this in the leadership polling yesterday where she reached the giddy heights of beating don't know for PM and of course lengthened her lead on the pathetic Corbyn.
In my experience people are absolutely bored to tears about Brexit. They do not appreciate people on either side making life even more difficult for the PM, whether it is the second vote nonsense or the idiocies of IDS or the ERG. I am increasingly convinced that almost any deal that May brings back to the Commons will be voted through on this basis.
From May's point of view, she really needs to get on with it. The situation is febrile and changes of mood are entirely possible. The sooner she can get her deal signed off and in front of the Commons the better. I think the risks for her increase the longer this drags on.
If eople are bored to tears with Brexit, why did we have the second largest demonstration in British history just a few days ago?
Brexiteers may well be dividing between the bored and the bonkers, Remainers much less so.
You didn’t.
When numbers are confirmed it will be shown to be smaller than the Countryside Alliance March of 2004.
You are clearly rattled by this march. And being so only gives a boost to remainers.
Goodness knows why you are if it was just a pointless march with a pathetic turnout. You are giving it credibility.
Just like me you can not have the foggiest idea whether the quoted figures are correct or not, but you sit there typing absolute nonsense.
One thing that is obviously clear is it was very big in terms of previous protests. Whether that means anything is another matter.
Why deny something that is obvious. Doing so makes other posts you make lack credibility.
Big would have been bigger than the referendum turnout. Or bigger than the Iraq War March at least. It didn't exceed either.
I know you're trying to be clever but yes exactly. These proposals are the worst of all worlds.
Remain or leave, just make a bloody decision. Don't leave but then lampoon yourself into maintaining rules from outside.
It's like leaving a train carriage but then trying to grip on from the outside and maintain momentum from outside with the train. Either be on board or get out, one or the other.
You can't say "remain or leave just make a decision" and then lament that we are rule takers or that the decision is inferior, etc.
I know this sounds super-partisan-y but there really was and is no version of Brexit that would put us in a better position than we are or have been as EU members, with an important seat at the table.
I defy anyone both to understand the supposed sovereignty that we gave up as members, and the cost/benefit of giving up that particular aspect of sovereignty (CFP, say) vs the benefits we received overall as members.
The best anyone can do is say "we'll be worse off in the short term but..." But you don't need a degree in the theory of net present value discounting to understand that we might never make up what we lose in that short term.
The most telling, perhaps depressing comment on PB of recent times was made yesterday, by none other than @rcs1000, who said, as if it was not a matter for debate: "the true tragedy of Brexit...."
Yes I can. The choice is really simple.
If you want a seat at the EU table and follow EU rules then Remain. If you want to set your own rules then Leave.
To follow EU rules but have no say in them is insane.
We helped to make the rules it is a joint enterprise to the mutual benefit of all members.
If only everything in life were as simple and black and white as you make it out to be. To say nothing of the fact that, as has been demonstrated these past two years, the choice really is not really simple.
Mr. P, that does rather sound like someone with a leadership axe to grind.
Mr. Thompson, that's British colonialism, which is evil. Vassalage to the EU is like having your own fluffy cloud in Heaven. It's perfect, because you get to follow the divine way of God.
The EU doesn't have vassals. It is a voluntary association of countries who choose to work together by agreed rules for mutual advantage, and which has promoted peace and prosperity very successfully. Glad I could clear that up for you.
Ironically perhaps, if we leave successfully then you will be shown to be correct. If we can’t leave because of an inability to get a decent deal then many will question just how voluntary the association ha become.
We could leave in March 2019 as happily so as to make @Philip_Thompson's head to explode.
But for some reason our noble government is not doing that. We are the guys sitting facing backwards for the entire train journey then complaining that we felt travel sick the whole time, but, with no one sitting opposite us.
Have you ever noticed that when a project starts to go badly, suddenly everything starts going wrong. Brexit is moving into the 'how do we get out of this mess?' phase.
Reducing DD's chances of becoming PM in the next few months might be the single most useful thing Jackson has done in his political career.
One of the reasons that I haven’t backed Gove heavily as next PM is that more than a few MPs are worried at the thought of Dom Cummings being Number 10 Chief of Staff.
Stewart Jackson or Dom Cummings in number 10 is nearly as frightening as Corbyn as PM.
Just on the Mail and their stance, a few things to bear in mind:
1. Viscount Rothermere controls the shots; 2. His wealth is directly tied into the value of his DMGT shares; 3. The health of DMGT's newspaper business is important for the share price. The shares tend to react badly to weakening circulation / advertising numbers (stating the obvious here but...) 4. Around 25% of DMGT's profits including its Euromoney associate come from newspapers. Ironically, because DMGT has sold off stakes in Zoopla and in Euromoney and made other disposals, newspapers are still important despite the profits declines. 5. Losses in newspaper revenues have a high drop through to profits (roughly 2/3) on both circulation and advertising. Rising paper costs will also hit the newspapers next year.
Putting all the above into the mix, my view is that Rothermere is willing to give Greig the chance to go with a more loyalist line to May but if there is any prolonged signs that his stance is hurting the newspapers on circulation he will be forced to turn around pretty sharpish. The signs don't look great - Daily Mail circulation was down 11% yoy in September and the Mail on Sunday down 13%. That is probably average to slightly worse than the market in general (the Times, e.g. is down 5%, the Telegraph was down 23%) but the Mail always prided itself that its circulation declines were lower than the market average. What might also worry the Mail is that Mail Online readers were down 19% yoy, much worse than the other newspaper websites.
I personally don't think Rothermere will give Greig much more than a few months with his stance if there are signs the loyalist stance is driving away readers (by the way, I don't think they are going to the Express, their behaviour is a bit more complex).
Also worth noting that the Express, which is behind the ERG, is owned by....the pro-Labour supporting Reach (the ex-Trinity Mirror). The fact the new management haven't put pressure on the editors to change the stance is a sign they are worried about the circulation / advertising loss.
Did you check the on line paper numbers. I cancelled my daily mail when it went on line, so no hard copy delivered, but the same paper available on the mail plus app at 11.00 pm nightly for £9.99 per month
This ties in with what others have been saying about European car makers betting the farm on diesel and ignoring electric cars while the Asian ones have been investing heavily in battery technology.
Completely off topic, but does anyone know how I could get hold of front pages of newspapers that predate the internet?
Some newspaper websites have archives.
Also try the get a newspaper on my birthday websites.
a reader's card for the British Library is not hard to get and it's a nice place to work - but you do have to be there - I got a Bod readers card after I finished my DPhil which I have found pretty useful, so depending on which university you went to a reader's card will give you a lot of stuff, including magazines as well as newspapers
This ties in with what others have been saying about European car makers betting the farm on diesel and ignoring electric cars while the Asian ones have been investing heavily in battery technology.
I think it's more a story about the importance of proximity and regional hubs in manufacturing. They've made the decision to be close to their existing facilities in Singapore and Malaysia.
If eople are bored to tears with Brexit, why did we have the second largest demonstration in British history just a few days ago?
Brexiteers may well be dividing between the bored and the bonkers, Remainers much less so.
You didn’t.
When numbers are confirmed it will be shown to be smaller than the Countryside Alliance March of 2004.
You are clearly rattled by this march. And being so only gives a boost to remainers.
Goodness knows why you are if it was just a pointless march with a pathetic turnout. You are giving it credibility.
Just like me you can not have the foggiest idea whether the quoted figures are correct or not, but you sit there typing absolute nonsense.
One thing that is obviously clear is it was very big in terms of previous protests. Whether that means anything is another matter.
Why deny something that is obvious. Doing so makes other posts you make lack credibility.
Big would have been bigger than the referendum turnout. Or bigger than the Iraq War March at least. It didn't exceed either.
Comparing the the size of a protest to the turnout in a nationwide vote is just nonsense and you know it. The latter is a valid comparison and in terms of big protests the benchmark is Iraq and Countryside march and nothing else really in modern times and it is up there. After all people are making just that comparison all the time currently.
However my point is the fact that people are driven to make these argument against the size of the march really makes the point. Every time you raise it you are just helping the remain campaign. If it were a pathetic march why are you doing this stuff. It is self defeating.
This ties in with what others have been saying about European car makers betting the farm on diesel and ignoring electric cars while the Asian ones have been investing heavily in battery technology.
The Electric Mini and Nissan Leaf are to be built in this country. At least they were...
On topic I think that the Mail has got this pretty much right. Everyone knows May is going to produce a shit deal but I think the vast majority recognise it is still much better than no deal and that she is doing her (slightly disappointing) best. We saw this in the leadership polling yesterday where she reached the giddy heights of beating don't know for PM and of course lengthened her lead on the pathetic Corbyn.
In my experience people are absolutely bored to tears about Brexit. They do not appreciate people on either side making life even more difficult for the PM, whether it is the second vote nonsense or the idiocies of IDS or the ERG. I am increasingly convinced that almost any deal that May brings back to the Commons will be voted through on this basis.
From May's point of view, she really needs to get on with it. The situation is febrile and changes of mood are entirely possible. The sooner she can get her deal signed off and in front of the Commons the better. I think the risks for her increase the longer this drags on.
If eople are bored to tears with Brexit, why did we have the second largest demonstration in British history just a few days ago?
Brexiteers may well be dividing between the bored and the bonkers, Remainers much less so.
You didn’t.
When numbers are confirmed it will be shown to be smaller than the Countryside Alliance March of 2004.
You are clearly rattled by this march. And being so only gives a boost to remainers.
Goodness knows why you are if it was just a pointless march with a pathetic turnout. You are giving it credibility.
Just like me you can not have the foggiest idea whether the quoted figures are correct or not, but you sit there typing absolute nonsense.
One thing that is obviously clear is it was very big in terms of previous protests. Whether that means anything is another matter.
Why deny something that is obvious. Doing so makes other posts you make lack credibility.
One thing IS obviously clear - the Leave vote was the biggest expression in a single issue vote this country has ever seen.
That a few of those who lost the vote want to go out in the autumn sunshine is for them to decide. But it doesn't impact the original result.
Stafford hospital was safe Nothing was happening in Rotherham The banks were well run Elections in Tower Hamlets were fair Diesel cars were the best choice for the environment Kids Company was deserving of taxpayers money There would only be about 10,000 migrants from Eastern Europe per year There would be a year long recession after a Leave vote Saddam Hussein had WMD
The only difference is that Trump is rather blatant about 'facts'.
Someone has said the reason for Dyson being based in Singapore is for cheap labour, don't think it adds up - average salary in Singapore is 37.5k according to my calcs.
Putting all the above into the mix, my view is that Rothermere is willing to give Greig the chance to go with a more loyalist line to May but if there is any prolonged signs that his stance is hurting the newspapers on circulation he will be forced to turn around pretty sharpish. The signs don't look great - Daily Mail circulation was down 11% yoy in September and the Mail on Sunday down 13%. That is probably average to slightly worse than the market in general (the Times, e.g. is down 5%, the Telegraph was down 23%) but the Mail always prided itself that its circulation declines were lower than the market average. What might also worry the Mail is that Mail Online readers were down 19% yoy, much worse than the other newspaper websites.
I personally don't think Rothermere will give Greig much more than a few months with his stance if there are signs the loyalist stance is driving away readers (by the way, I don't think they are going to the Express, their behaviour is a bit more complex).
Also worth noting that the Express, which is behind the ERG, is owned by....the pro-Labour supporting Reach (the ex-Trinity Mirror). The fact the new management haven't put pressure on the editors to change the stance is a sign they are worried about the circulation / advertising loss.
Surely those DM yoy declines would reflect Dacre's editorial position?
Given both DM and SM down by similar amounts it's not got much to do with Brexit imo.
That is a fair point, although there has been the suggestion that once Greig's appointment was announced, many of the more pro-Brexit journalists rowed back their opinion to curry favour with the new editor.
Typically, in past years, the Mail on Sunday has done worse than the Mail by around 4-5%. The gap has narrowed considerably in the last few months as the Mail declines have sharpened.
Not saying this is Greig related but that, if Rothermere thinks it is an issue, he will force Greig to change tack.
Struggling to understand the logic of your post: "in past years, the Mail on Sunday has done worse than the Mail by around 4-5%. The gap has narrowed considerably in the last few months as the Mail declines have sharpened"
'Past few months' (to September 18) had Dacre, not Greig, as DM editor - so surely Dacre's line has shaperened that decline, not Greig's?
"This library has subscribed to The British Newspaper Archive - Community Edition.
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All the articles you view will be kept in your Saved area – it’s your personal area in which to store and organise your favourite articles. Here you can create folders for different articles and categorise them however you like – the beauty of "Saved" is that you can make it whatever you want. You can also add notes to any of your articles to record your thoughts and track your progress.
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Mr. P, almost no Leave supporters want us in the customs union, and the vast majority don't want us in the single market either. Those are Mayite/Labour positions.
Otherwise, it'd be the same as every other export situation: exporting to X requires goods to meet X's regulations, but X cannot dictate the domestic regulations of other nations/trading blocs.
Someone has said the reason for Dyson being based in Singapore is for cheap labour, don't think it adds up - average salary in Singapore is 37.5k according to my calcs.
Not a manufacturing base, Singapore. If he is moving it is more likely for the white collar expertise.
Stafford hospital was safe Nothing was happening in Rotherham The banks were well run Elections in Tower Hamlets were fair Diesel cars were the best choice for the environment Kids Company was deserving of taxpayers money There would only be about 10,000 migrants from Eastern Europe per year Saddam Hussein had WMD
The only difference is that Trump is rather blatant about 'facts'.
He's been rather less shy than our gov't about the real reason for soft peddling the house of Saud: "We sell Saudi Arabia billions of dollars of stuff"
Someone has said the reason for Dyson being based in Singapore is for cheap labour, don't think it adds up - average salary in Singapore is 37.5k according to my calcs.
A modern factory isn't going to be about cheap labour - anything that can be automated will be automated.
The location is due to available skilled workers and I suspect Singapore wins due to its location nearer China and India....
Leavers still completely failing to come to terms with their inability to establish any form of consensus over Brexit. It's not the prospect of a fresh referendum in the short term that should worry them, it's the prospect that Brexit is slowly sinking beneath the waves of public opinion in the longer term.
It is becoming increasingly likely that in a few years' time any kind of involvement with the Leave campaign will be the mark of Cain.
"This library has subscribed to The British Newspaper Archive - Community Edition.
While you are within this library/authority premises, you will have unlimited access to the millions of scanned pages of newspapers that the British Newspaper Archive site holds.
To view pages from the archive, you'll need to register (for free) and be signed in to the service.
All the articles you view will be kept in your Saved area – it’s your personal area in which to store and organise your favourite articles. Here you can create folders for different articles and categorise them however you like – the beauty of "Saved" is that you can make it whatever you want. You can also add notes to any of your articles to record your thoughts and track your progress.
Please see our Getting Started page for useful advice on searching.
President of Exeter Conservative Association calls for a united Ireland.
He should not be in the Conservative and Unionist party then, even if I do agree with SM and CU for NI and FTA for GB
So you're not a unionist and want to dissolve the union? Under your logic you shouldn't be in the Conservative and Unionist Party either.
If your proposal goes ahead the union would already be dead. Which is why its opposed by unionists.
Given NI outlaws gay marriage and abortion it hardly mirrors GB on everything now anyway
That is their choice though. They could legalise it if they chose to.
Under your proposal they would be a colony of the EU. Forced to maintain EU laws but given no say in them.
NI is already in the EU, that hasn't forced them to legalise gay marriage and abortion to date.
No but it does force them to obey EU laws and regulations. Currently they get a say in what those laws are but under the proposals they won't. They won't have any MEPs, votes in Council or anything else.
I thought colonialism had been condemned to the past.
Well there we have it - the joys of Brexit, eh? Turning us all from shared rule makers to disenfranchised rule takers.
I know you're trying to be clever but yes exactly. These proposals are the worst of all worlds.
Remain or leave, just make a bloody decision. Don't leave but then lampoon yourself into maintaining rules from outside.
It's like leaving a train carriage but then trying to grip on from the outside and maintain momentum from outside with the train. Either be on board or get out, one or the other.
To pick up your train analogy: The issue is we want to continue enjoying all the benefits of the train journey, without being on the train or paying the fare. It's just not going to happen and the Leave campaigners were either too stupid or too disingenuous to call that out.
If we get completely off the train we will be left behind.
This ties in with what others have been saying about European car makers betting the farm on diesel and ignoring electric cars while the Asian ones have been investing heavily in battery technology.
I think it's more a story about the importance of proximity and regional hubs in manufacturing. They've made the decision to be close to their existing facilities in Singapore and Malaysia.
I should probably have read the full story shouldn’t I?
It’s something we all do to be honest, but one doesn’t normally make the point quite so openly.
The big issue here is the fact (sorry!) that 'fact' no longer means 'something that is actually true' in Trumpspeak. Rather, it means some information that we may choose to believe if it suits our purpose or we may choose to lampoon if not.
'Suiting our purpose', not 'veracity', is the test for Trump, Kushner et al.
Mr. P, almost no Leave supporters want us in the customs union, and the vast majority don't want us in the single market either. Those are Mayite/Labour positions.
Otherwise, it'd be the same as every other export situation: exporting to X requires goods to meet X's regulations, but X cannot dictate the domestic regulations of other nations/trading blocs.
Really? I think the polling is more mixed (& I wonder how perfectly 'the' customs union is understood anyway).
'Such evidence as we do have is far from consistent in its message. In the research that we ourselves conducted in late 2016 and early 2017 about what kind of Brexit deal voters wanted, we found that there was popular support for having customs checks when people are entering the UK from the EU. We asked whether people supported the idea of ‘reintroducing customs checks on people and goods coming into Britain from the EU’. In the more recent reading, taken in early 2017, as many as 69% said that they were in favour while 15% were opposed. Even amongst Remain voters, rather more than half (54%) backed the idea, though Leave voters were almost unanimous in their support. These figures were little different from those obtained the previous autumn.
On the other hand, 47% told BMG in January that they agreed that ‘The UK should remain a member of the customs union’, while only 14% disagreed. While 63% of Remain voters agreed and only 4% disagreed, Leave voters were more or less evenly divided with 30% agreeing and 28% disagreeing. Similarly, in April of last year YouGov found that 57% believed that ‘Britain should try to remain a member of the European Customs Union’ and only 17% thought that it should not. These polls suggest that being part of the customs union is a relatively popular idea.'
You'll be pleased to know I bought my first shares at the very top of the market. Still, rather that than buying my first property at the very top of the market.
You'll be pleased to know I bought my first shares at the very top of the market. Still, rather that than buying my first property at the very top of the market.
TBH that tweet might well mean that now is a good time to be buying. This, of course, is an opinion and emphatically not financial advice.
Stafford hospital was safe Nothing was happening in Rotherham The banks were well run Elections in Tower Hamlets were fair Diesel cars were the best choice for the environment Kids Company was deserving of taxpayers money There would only be about 10,000 migrants from Eastern Europe per year Saddam Hussein had WMD
The only difference is that Trump is rather blatant about 'facts'.
He's been rather less shy than our gov't about the real reason for soft peddling the house of Saud: "We sell Saudi Arabia billions of dollars of stuff"
We could sell the likes of Iran and N Korea lots of stuff instead
Leavers still completely failing to come to terms with their inability to establish any form of consensus over Brexit. It's not the prospect of a fresh referendum in the short term that should worry them, it's the prospect that Brexit is slowly sinking beneath the waves of public opinion in the longer term.
It is becoming increasingly likely that in a few years' time any kind of involvement with the Leave campaign will be the mark of Cain.
Only if we do actually leave: then everything bad will be blamed on it, fairly or not. If we do end up remaining then those who stopped us leaving will become the scapegoats instead. Either way there will be a lot of angry people out there.
Mr. P, almost no Leave supporters want us in the customs union, and the vast majority don't want us in the single market either. Those are Mayite/Labour positions.
Otherwise, it'd be the same as every other export situation: exporting to X requires goods to meet X's regulations, but X cannot dictate the domestic regulations of other nations/trading blocs.
There’s polling that says otherwise.
47% told BMG in January that they agreed that ‘The UK should remain a member of the customs union’, while only 14% disagreed. While 63% of Remain voters agreed and only 4% disagreed, Leave voters were more or less evenly divided with 30% agreeing and 28% disagreeing. Similarly, in April of last year YouGov found that 57% believed that ‘Britain should try to remain a member of the European Customs Union’ and only 17% thought that it should not. These polls suggest that being part of the customs union is a relatively popular idea.
Mr. Divvie, interesting stats. It does read a bit like the old formulation "I am in favour of higher taxes to fund public spending" where the taxes fall on other people, and the spending is on services the individual wants.
You'll be pleased to know I bought my first shares at the very top of the market. Still, rather that than buying my first property at the very top of the market.
TBH that tweet might well mean that now is a good time to be buying. This, of course, is an opinion and emphatically not financial advice.
My bonds in Theresa May's survival were at peak yield sunday, the price rose monday.
For balance, Graham Allen, for many years Labour MP for Nottingham North, thought highly of IDS and took a certain amount of partisan flak for working with him on addressing the causes of poverty (Graham's big thing is early education). He reckoned that IDS was the genuine article of a Christian Democrat who genuinely worried about people at the bottom of the heap. Doesn't make IDS necessarily competent or right, but more complex than just a shrill right-winger.
I omce watched a speech he gave at the Tory party conference, when Cameron was leader but still in opposition, about his work on poverty and welfare and it was genuinely impressive. I rather admired him for trying to do something about poverty when he went back to being a backbencher.
His problem is that he has not been very competent at enacting his ideas and that on EU matters he is disloyal and has loopy ideas. But as Nick says he is more complex than one might suppose.
Similarly I thought May’s first speech as PM was good. Her tragedy has been that she has been wholly unable to enact sensible policies to address the concerns she identified then.
Mr. Eagles, be interesting to know if said polling included a definition of the customs union and that we couldn't make our own trade deals if we were a member.
It’s something we all do to be honest, but one doesn’t normally make the point quite so openly.
The big issue here is the fact (sorry!) that 'fact' no longer means 'something that is actually true' in Trumpspeak. Rather, it means some information that we may choose to believe if it suits our purpose or we may choose to lampoon if not.
'Suiting our purpose', not 'veracity', is the test for Trump, Kushner et al.
Of course: they are politicians. They are a bit more open about it than most admittedly...
It’s actually very hard not to act like that. One of my heroes is Kepler who discarded years of calculations of the orbit of Mars because of one data point, rather than doing what any normal person would have done and assuming the errant position was wrong and ignoring it.
I would say it has fallen immensely in terms of the actual public. But it retains a disproportionate influence in the Westminster bubble, where people who should know better (MPs) see it as a genuine reflection of public opinion.
It worries me how shallow some MPs' (and councillors and other policymakers') understanding can be of important stuff. And I'm sure stark headlines designed to sell papers don't help that when they're taken as read.
- and the tale I was told of a persistent critic of the BBC who visited his local commercial radio station expecting a warm welcome for his anti-Beeb rhetoric, only to be taken aback by the response that BBC indie commissions for their parent company were the main thing keeping the station on-air.
Both issues in which the (albeit backbench) MPs in question professed some expertise; but both shown to know little of the nuanced detail.
Indeed. From a quick bit of maths I think the inflation-adjusted FTSE100 is now where it was in 1995 and only 60% of where it was at the end of 1999. (That ignores dividend income of course.)
Comments
I am not sure whose job it is to confirm numbers on these kinds of thing or how they do it. The photos from the helicopters are pretty consistent with the estimates of around three quarters of a million people. There were more coaches booked for it from West Sussex than for the Countryside Alliance though. West Sussex is not the most remainy of places but it is very sporty. So I'd be surprised if your prediction is proved correct.
Given both DM and SM down by similar amounts it's not got much to do with Brexit imo.
Simon was stabbed through the heart a few hours after a seemingly minor altercation in a Welsh pub a few weeks ago.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/pendine-murder-victim-died-stab-15243670
NI is already in the EU, that hasn't forced them to legalise gay marriage and abortion to date.
Haven't you being telling us for years that interest in matters EU was minimal ?
Rachel Sylvester"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/brexiteers-are-running-scared-of-democracy-79r5swqbj
https://www.historic-newspapers.co.uk
But I guess that's probably not want you want.
[Although I imagine there's some scanning archive initiative online. No idea where, though].
I thought colonialism had been condemned to the past.
' Hundreds of schools and home care services in Glasgow face disruption as council workers begin a 48-hour strike over equal pay.
Primary schools and nurseries will be shut and other services could be hit.
About 8,000 workers will strike amid a "lack of progress" on equal pay claims from thousands of female workers, the GMB and Unison said.
Glasgow City Council said the strike was unnecessary and it hoped to reach agreement in the coming months. '
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-45941552
Mr. Thompson, that's British colonialism, which is evil. Vassalage to the EU is like having your own fluffy cloud in Heaven. It's perfect, because you get to follow the divine way of God.
https://www.independent.co.uk/archive
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/11/25/the-sun-is-rising-in-the-east/
Did they have restrictions as to where the sport pages were ?
Amazing that a moment's fury (if that is what it is) can change lives forever and end others'.
Betting PostF1: couple of early bets. Backed Verstappen to win at 5.6 on Betfair, hedge set up at evens.
Backed Raikkonen each way to 'win' qualifying at 10 (third the odds top 2) on Ladbrokes.
Overtaking's very tricky, one stop likely.
Remain or leave, just make a bloody decision. Don't leave but then lampoon yourself into maintaining rules from outside.
It's like leaving a train carriage but then trying to grip on from the outside and maintain momentum from outside with the train. Either be on board or get out, one or the other.
Nothing says 'consent of the people' like manifesto promises for a referendum and then, post-election, said promises being discarded by the elected government.
Or re-running a referendum if the wrong result was given last time.
Typically, in past years, the Mail on Sunday has done worse than the Mail by around 4-5%. The gap has narrowed considerably in the last few months as the Mail declines have sharpened.
Not saying this is Greig related but that, if Rothermere thinks it is an issue, he will force Greig to change tack.
NI would not under these proposals be an equal member. They would get no say. They would be vassals.
I know this sounds super-partisan-y but there really was and is no version of Brexit that would put us in a better position than we are or have been as EU members, with an important seat at the table.
I defy anyone both to understand the supposed sovereignty that we gave up as members, and the cost/benefit of giving up that particular aspect of sovereignty (CFP, say) vs the benefits we received overall as members.
The best anyone can do is say "we'll be worse off in the short term but..." But you don't need a degree in the theory of net present value discounting to understand that we might never make up what we lose in that short term.
The most telling, perhaps depressing comment on PB of recent times was made yesterday, by none other than @rcs1000, who said, as if it was not a matter for debate: "the true tragedy of Brexit...."
The most recent referendum may or may not be rerun, but that is a matter for the UK not the EU. They have no power to compel us to do so. As I say, it is a voluntary union.
Goodness knows why you are if it was just a pointless march with a pathetic turnout. You are giving it credibility.
Just like me you can not have the foggiest idea whether the quoted figures are correct or not, but you sit there typing absolute nonsense.
One thing that is obviously clear is it was very big in terms of previous protests. Whether that means anything is another matter.
Why deny something that is obvious. Doing so makes other posts you make lack credibility.
Lisbon is the Constitution with a new title and different font. That sort of pretence, as if the electorate won't notice, is one of the reasons people who would've otherwise sat on their hands voted to Leave.
If you want a seat at the EU table and follow EU rules then Remain.
If you want to set your own rules then Leave.
To follow EU rules but have no say in them is insane.
Most of the polls have Bolsonaro ahead by about 60% to 40% when don't knows are excluded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Brazilian_general_election,_2018#After_the_first_round
That a few of those who lost the vote want to go out in the autumn sunshine is for them to decide. But it doesn't impact the original result.
Losers aren't choosers.
Also try the get a newspaper on my birthday websites.
If only everything in life were as simple and black and white as you make it out to be. To say nothing of the fact that, as has been demonstrated these past two years, the choice really is not really simple.
But for some reason our noble government is not doing that. We are the guys sitting facing backwards for the entire train journey then complaining that we felt travel sick the whole time, but, with no one sitting opposite us.
If you want to trade, you have to follow rules. You either sit at the table and make them, or you accept them made by others.
To follow EU rules but have no say in them is
insanethe inescapable logic of Brexit.Stewart Jackson or Dom Cummings in number 10 is nearly as frightening as Corbyn as PM.
https://twitter.com/acatherwoodnews/status/1054652230882729984
However my point is the fact that people are driven to make these argument against the size of the march really makes the point. Every time you raise it you are just helping the remain campaign. If it were a pathetic march why are you doing this stuff. It is self defeating.
According to the official facts:
Stafford hospital was safe
Nothing was happening in Rotherham
The banks were well run
Elections in Tower Hamlets were fair
Diesel cars were the best choice for the environment
Kids Company was deserving of taxpayers money
There would only be about 10,000 migrants from Eastern Europe per year
There would be a year long recession after a Leave vote
Saddam Hussein had WMD
The only difference is that Trump is rather blatant about 'facts'.
'Past few months' (to September 18) had Dacre, not Greig, as DM editor - so surely Dacre's line has shaperened that decline, not Greig's?
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Otherwise, it'd be the same as every other export situation: exporting to X requires goods to meet X's regulations, but X cannot dictate the domestic regulations of other nations/trading blocs.
The location is due to available skilled workers and I suspect Singapore wins due to its location nearer China and India....
It is becoming increasingly likely that in a few years' time any kind of involvement with the Leave campaign will be the mark of Cain.
If we get completely off the train we will be left behind.
'Explosive device' found in mailbox at philanthropist billionaire's home
Does the Guardian describe all billionaires who give money away in such terms?
https://twitter.com/econbartleby/status/1054654420334579712
'Suiting our purpose', not 'veracity', is the test for Trump, Kushner et al.
'Such evidence as we do have is far from consistent in its message. In the research that we ourselves conducted in late 2016 and early 2017 about what kind of Brexit deal voters wanted, we found that there was popular support for having customs checks when people are entering the UK from the EU. We asked whether people supported the idea of ‘reintroducing customs checks on people and goods coming into Britain from the EU’. In the more recent reading, taken in early 2017, as many as 69% said that they were in favour while 15% were opposed. Even amongst Remain voters, rather more than half (54%) backed the idea, though Leave voters were almost unanimous in their support. These figures were little different from those obtained the previous autumn.
On the other hand, 47% told BMG in January that they agreed that ‘The UK should remain a member of the customs union’, while only 14% disagreed. While 63% of Remain voters agreed and only 4% disagreed, Leave voters were more or less evenly divided with 30% agreeing and 28% disagreeing. Similarly, in April of last year YouGov found that 57% believed that ‘Britain should try to remain a member of the European Customs Union’ and only 17% thought that it should not. These polls suggest that being part of the customs union is a relatively popular idea.'
https://tinyurl.com/yd6rsqz5
47% told BMG in January that they agreed that ‘The UK should remain a member of the customs union’, while only 14% disagreed. While 63% of Remain voters agreed and only 4% disagreed, Leave voters were more or less evenly divided with 30% agreeing and 28% disagreeing. Similarly, in April of last year YouGov found that 57% believed that ‘Britain should try to remain a member of the European Customs Union’ and only 17% thought that it should not. These polls suggest that being part of the customs union is a relatively popular idea.
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/what-do-voters-make-of-the-customs-debate/
His problem is that he has not been very competent at enacting his ideas and that on EU matters he is disloyal and has loopy ideas. But as Nick says he is more complex than one might suppose.
Similarly I thought May’s first speech as PM was good. Her tragedy has been that she has been wholly unable to enact sensible policies to address the concerns she identified then.
It’s actually very hard not to act like that. One of my heroes is Kepler who discarded years of calculations of the orbit of Mars because of one data point, rather than doing what any normal person would have done and assuming the errant position was wrong and ignoring it.
I would say it has fallen immensely in terms of the actual public. But it retains a disproportionate influence in the Westminster bubble, where people who should know better (MPs) see it as a genuine reflection of public opinion.
It worries me how shallow some MPs' (and councillors and other policymakers') understanding can be of important stuff. And I'm sure stark headlines designed to sell papers don't help that when they're taken as read.
Two anecdotes:
- this the other week from a vociferous Brexiter https://www.itv.com/news/central/2018-09-25/pro-brexit-mp-ends-up-looking-like-a-bit-of-a-lemon-daniel-kawczynski-shrewsbury-tesco-eu/
- and the tale I was told of a persistent critic of the BBC who visited his local commercial radio station expecting a warm welcome for his anti-Beeb rhetoric, only to be taken aback by the response that BBC indie commissions for their parent company were the main thing keeping the station on-air.
Both issues in which the (albeit backbench) MPs in question professed some expertise; but both shown to know little of the nuanced detail.