What a remarkably stupid pair of takes. You can completely disagree with the views of those marching yesterday while respecting their right to demonstrate. Claiming that they are either patronising or marginalising Leave supporters by doing so is coming perilously close to saying that they are not allowed to have a differing opinion.
Brexiteer loons are worried - that's clear. Just let them be angry...
Giles Fraser is firmly on the liberal-left, albeit an habitually shoot-from-the-hip type.
He was one of the people who gave key support to Occupy St Pauls.
He is also Vicar of a church in Kennington, so somewhat in contact with London Grass-Roots.
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
The man in question called for 'Bringing back the British Empire'. So presumably that means leaving the EU with No Deal and reconolising India, Pakistan, most of Africa, Canada, Australia and New Zealand?
I don't think scepticism of that is exactly showing 'contempt for this country's history and heritage' not least as the former colonies affected which are now independent nations may have something to say about it!
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
The empire did some great things and did some awful things, but the idea of bringing it back is farcical. Being proud of something just because it is your heritage is bizarre. Be proud of the good stuff, ashamed of the bad stuff, but look at history for what it is - its history. Being patriotic can be a very dangerous thing. It is worth noting that the most patriotic appear to be the ultra right. Cheer on your team, but if they play dirty, don't continue to do so and see the good stuff in others. Don't assume we are always right and others wrong.
won't that person be surprised if we get a vote and the people vote for a deal or no deal.
I don't know. Let's have a vote and find out?
I support another vote Scott, but the smug presumption that remain will win because of a large march is very complacent, and it will harden doubters considering it if said smug presumptions shows it isn't about a confirmatory vote, it's about getting it right this time.
If No Deal Remain would win if there was a referendum before Brexit day next March and even if there was not if we left on No Deal terms the next general election would likely be won by opposition parties on a pro return to the single market and customs union platform anyway
Remain might well win. Complacently assuming it would because if a march is stupid, not least because while the march was i am sure almost entirely for remain, there are those who would probably back a deal in such a vote and parliament may struggle to pass legislation for one if it is only backed by continuity remainers
If Brexiteers are so stupid as to push No Deal Brexit they will likely kill Brexit sooner or later or at least ensure we return permanently to the single market and customs union after the next general election.
If there is a Deal then yes Brexit would likely still beat Remain
Of course few outright support no deal they just think whatever deal we get, if we get one, will be bad. Which is true. But which becomes no deal support by proxy.
But it is time for leavers to decide if a bad brexit (that is less than optimal not merely one that is bad as it has a cost) is worse than no brexit. Maybe there'll be a second vote, maybe not, but outside parliament or within it's time to decide .
Have a good day all.
We have to have a NI backstop to get a transition period to negotiate a FTA ie the most sustainable Brexit which meets the aims of the Leave vote for GB.
If there is no NI backstop as diehard Leavers block it then ultimately with just 40% backing for No Deal in the polls which will only fall further once the damage to the economy and threats to the Union become clear then a Remain vote in EUref2 or ultimately a return to the Single Market and Customs Union will likely be inevitable and diehard Leavers will have nobody to blame but themselves
Just to understand: you believe that just because the EU says “you must do this” we need to bend over?
Ah yes, time for the scripted response of how a march means action x is clearly supported by the people. But won't that person be surprised if we get a vote and the people vote for a deal or no deal.
Bear in mind that this might well be scripted - in Russia.
At least we have evidence that there was a march in London, and they probably weren't all Russian "tourists". Some random person spouts off on twitter and it could easily be a Russian bot - particularly if the tweet stands out for being absurd or outrageous.
If we are to protect ourselves from Russian attempts to sow discord then we have to try to listen to each other instead of playing the game of finding the most outrageous tweet from the other side and insisting that people agree that it makes the entirety of their position fallacious.
We have to relearn the art of wanting to find a compromise instead of wanting to defeat the other side, as though the half of the population of our country that disagrees with us is an enemy. We have real enemies enough in the world out there.
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
Wishful thinking on both fronts I think, the EU are not going to budge on the backstop especially when No Deal poses a bigger risk to our economy than theirs and NI Catholics are not going to shift from backing a United Ireland if a hard border in Ireland
And you know this for sure? Is there a YouGov poll with a 1% margin that you're about to quote?
You're assuming that a unification referendum will be a rerun if the EU referendum, it won't be. Just as GE2017 wasn't. It will be the bread and butter issues like the NHS and welfare which motivate people to go and vote. Unification means no more NHS, that's a huge, huge drawback and there's literally no getting around it.
56% of Northern Irish voters back a United Ireland if a hard border and of course the Republic of Ireland now has a higher GDP per capita than the UK, it is now much more able to afford to integrate Northern Ireland than it was 40 years ago
Ireland has a bunch of phantom money that doesn't really ever go through Ireland, at least not in real life. It means GDP is high but the people don't benefit.
There is literally no way that Ireland is going to spend 15% of its annual budget on keeping the NI subsidy going to they can have a better standard of living compared to the South. If NI leaves the Union then it leaves the NHS, grammar schools and other social programmes behind.
The healthcare system in Ireland is fully free for those on welfare and low earners with a Medical Card ie just over a third of the population, for higher earners they just pay in certain circumstances and Ireland pays more for healthcare thsn the EU average.
Even in the case of a United Ireland grammar schools would be a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly
You think the Northern Ireland Assembly would be retained in the event of a "united" Ireland? It's a view, i suppose.
Well if the Republic of Ireland imposed direct rule on Northern Ireland, Protestant paramilitaries would respond in the same way the IRA did when Westminster imposed direct rule on Northern Ireland during the Troubles
Government debt approaching two trillion quid Twenty years of trade deficits with the current account deficit going over £100bn per annum Falling home ownership and rising inequality Triple lock pensions and student fees twice being tripled Uncontrolled and unprepared for immigration Repeated Middle Eastern warmongering Stagnant productivity and stagnant living standards A banking crash
It's almost as if there were no halcyon days in which a government of men became the angelic choir of godly prophecy.
Indeed but incompetence is always more tolerated when its from 'people like us' and not 'people like them'.
The Foxy / Jonathan yearning for the old days is based on the 'people like them should not be telling people like me what do to instead take it from them and give it to me' mentality.
We have to relearn the art of wanting to find a compromise instead of wanting to defeat the other side, as though the half of the population of our country that disagrees with us is an enemy.
OK,the people who called us "citizens of nowhere, traitors and saboteurs" can go first...
Ah yes, time for the scripted response of how a march means action x is clearly supported by the people. But won't that person be surprised if we get a vote and the people vote for a deal or no deal.
Bear in mind that this might well be scripted - in Russia.
At least we have evidence that there was a march in London, and they probably weren't all Russian "tourists". Some random person spouts off on twitter and it could easily be a Russian bot - particularly if the tweet stands out for being absurd or outrageous.
If we are to protect ourselves from Russian attempts to sow discord then we have to try to listen to each other instead of playing the game of finding the most outrageous tweet from the other side and insisting that people agree that it makes the entirety of their position fallacious.
We have to relearn the art of wanting to find a compromise instead of wanting to defeat the other side, as though the half of the population of our country that disagrees with us is an enemy. We have real enemies enough in the world out there.
If we go to No Deal this country could soon be on the verge of a near Civil War this time next year
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
won't that person be surprised if we get a vote and the people vote for a deal or no deal.
I don't know. Let's have a vote and find out?
I support another vote Scott, but the smug presumption that remain will win because of a large march is very complacent, and it will harden doubters considering it if said smug presumptions shows it isn't about a confirmatory vote, it's about getting it right this time.
If No Deal Remain would win if there was a referendum before Brexit day next March and even if there was not if we left on No Deal terms the next general election would likely be won by opposition parties on a pro return to the single market and customs union platform anyway
Remain might well win. Complacently assuming it would because if a march is stupid, not least because while the march was i am sure almost entirely for remain, there are those who would probably back a deal in such a vote and parliament may struggle to pass legislation for one if it is only backed by continuity remainers
If Brexiteers are so stupid as to push No Deal Brexit they will likely kill Brexit sooner or later or at least ensure we return permanently to the single market and customs union after the next general election.
If there is a Deal then yes Brexit would likely still beat Remain
Of course few outright support no deal they just think whatever deal we get, if we get one, will be bad. Which is true. But which becomes no deal support by proxy.
But it is time for leavers to decide if a bad brexit (that is less than optimal not merely one that is bad as it has a cost) is worse than no brexit. Maybe there'll be a second vote, maybe not, but outside parliament or within it's time to decide .
Have a good day all.
We have to have es
Just to understand: you believe that just because the EU says “you must do this” we need to bend over?
Non angeli sed angli
As I said yesterday I know No Deal does not bother you but it will hit the UK more than it hits the EU with very damaging consequences for the economy and potentially the Union too.
Most NI voters want no hard border and to stay in the SM and CU, dying in the ditch to oppose the backstop and thus ensuring no transition period, no FTA and no deal is absurd
Mr. Meeks, you did just claim that it was a ridiculous take to ask how the second referendum advocates planned to make Leavers feel other than ignored, should the former end up winning, but don't appear to have an answer.
I do agree that the decline in civility, the polarisation of opinions, and invective ('traitors' is not a term that should be used lightly, though a small number have appeared to be batting for the other side, and hurling terms like 'xenophobes' and 'racists' around is equally unhelpful).
What a remarkably stupid pair of takes. You can completely disagree with the views of those marching yesterday while respecting their right to demonstrate. Claiming that they are either patronising or marginalising Leave supporters by doing so is coming perilously close to saying that they are not allowed to have a differing opinion.
He was arguing that if Remain wins a second referendum they have an obligation to reach out and try to heal the divide with the defeated Leavers
Apparently that’s “a stupid take”.
But you are very critical of Leavers fur not seeking to persuade you
You are an embittered hypocrite, Alastair
Both of you are wilfully missing the straightforward point that yesterday was a protest march. It doesn’t come with a fully worked out manifesto just a single point of agreement. Accept the right to protest or deny it. Don’t disingenuously hold protestors to a standard Leavers have never sought to meet.
You were specifically critical of Giles Fraiser’s article. He made one very simple point.
Are you saying you described it as a “stupid take” without reading it?
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
There is plenty to show pride about in our history. There is also plenty to regret - or even feel ashamed about.
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
I saw him give a lecture a few months ago where he said the same thing. He was obviously very disappointed about Brexit but thought a second referendum wasn't the right thing to do.
We have to relearn the art of wanting to find a compromise instead of wanting to defeat the other side, as though the half of the population of our country that disagrees with us is an enemy.
OK,the people who called us "citizens of nowhere, traitors and saboteurs" can go first...
Says the person who told Leavers to emigrate when he expected a Remain win.
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
Jeez! Are you for real?
A country's history is not necessarily all wonderful and rosy. It's the right of all people to question parts of it. It doesn't make you less of a human being for doing that.
It seems like the march in London yesterday has done some weird things to the Brexit loons. Bizarre!
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
There is plenty to show pride about in our history. There is also plenty to regret - or even feel ashamed about.
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
There is plenty to show pride about in our history. There is also plenty to regret - or even feel ashamed about.
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
won't that person be surprised if we get a vote and the people vote for a deal or no deal.
I don't know. Let's have a vote and find out?
I support another vote Scott, but the smug presumption that remain will win because of a large march is very complacent, and it will harden doubters considering it if said smug presumptions shows it isn't about a confirmatory vote, it's about getting it right this time.
If No Deal Remain would win if there was a referendum before Brexit day next March and even if there was not if we left on No Deal terms the next general election would likely be won by opposition parties on a pro return to the single market and customs union platform anyway
Remain might well win. Complacently assuming it would because if a march is stupid, not least because while the march was i am sure almost entirely for remain, there are those who would probably back a deal in such a vote and parliament may struggle to pass legislation for one if it is only backed by continuity remainers
If Brexiteers are so stupid as to push No Deal Brexit they will likely kill Brexit sooner or later or at least ensure we return permanently to the single market and customs union after the next general election.
If there is a Deal then yes Brexit would likely still beat Remain
Of course few outright support no deal they just think whatever deal we get, if we get one, will be bad. Which is true. But which becomes no deal support by proxy.
But it is time for leavers to decide if a bad brexit (that is less than optimal not merely one that is bad as it has a cost) is worse than no brexit. Maybe there'll be a second vote, maybe not, but outside parliament or within it's time to decide .
Have a good day all.
We have to have es
Just to understand: you believe that just because the EU says “you must do this” we need to bend over?
Non angeli sed angli
As I said yesterday I know No Deal does not bother you but it will hit the UK more than it hits the EU with very damaging consequences for the economy and potentially the Union too.
Most NI voters want no hard border and to stay in the SM and CU, dying in the ditch to oppose the backstop and thus ensuring no transition period, no FTA and no deal is absurd
Try answering the question rather than reposting your usual screed of nonsense
I saw him give a lecture a few months ago where he said the same thing. He was obviously very disappointed about Brexit but thought a second referendum wasn't the right thing to do.
There's a section of the elite that regards implementing Brexit as a virility test, regardless of whether they agree with it. They just use democracy as a smokescreen.
I saw him give a lecture a few months ago where he said the same thing. He was obviously very disappointed about Brexit but thought a second referendum wasn't the right thing to do.
Interesting contrast to Vernon Bogdanor, who, iirc, thinks 2nd vote is inevitable due to deadlock.
Wishful thinking on both fronts I think, the EU are not going to budge on the backstop especially when No Deal poses a bigger risk to our economy than theirs and NI Catholics are not going to shift from backing a United Ireland if a hard border in Ireland
And you know this for sure? Is there a YouGov poll with a 1% margin that you're about to quote?
You're assuming that a unification referendum will be a rerun if the EU referendum, it won't be. Just as GE2017 wasn't. It will be the bread and butter issues like the NHS and welfare which motivate people to go and vote. Unification means no more NHS, that's a huge, huge drawback and there's literally no getting around it.
56% of Northern Irish voters back a United Ireland if a hard border and of course the Republic of Ireland now has a higher GDP per capita than the UK, it is now much more able to afford to integrate Northern Ireland than it was 40 years ago
Ireland has a bunch of phantom money that doesn't really ever go through Ireland, at least not in real life. It means GDP is high but the people don't benefit.
There is literally no way that Ireland is going to spend 15% of its annual budget on keeping the NI subsidy going to they can have a better standard of living compared to the South. If NI leaves the Union then it leaves the NHS, grammar schools and other social programmes behind.
The healthcare system in Ireland is fully free for those on welfare and low earners with a Medical Card ie just over a third of the population, for higher earners they just pay in certain circumstances and Ireland pays more for healthcare thsn the EU average.
Even in the case of a United Ireland grammar schools would be a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly
You think the Northern Ireland Assembly would be retained in the event of a "united" Ireland? It's a view, i suppose.
Well if the Republic of Ireland imposed direct rule on Northern Ireland, Protestant paramilitaries would respond in the same way the IRA did when Westminster imposed direct rule on Northern Ireland during the Troubles
They wouldn't be "imposing direct rule". If Northern Ireland voted for (and presumably the Republic agreed) unification, the existing Northern Ireland structures would likely cease to exist. "Northern" Ireland would cease to exist. Otherwise it wouldn't be a unification of Ireland, simply a cessation from the UK.
As I said yesterday I know No Deal does not bother you but it will hit the UK more than it hits the EU with very damaging consequences for the economy and potentially the Union too.
Most NI voters want no hard border and to stay in the SM and CU, dying in the ditch to oppose the backstop and thus ensuring no transition period, no FTA and no deal is absurd
No it's not absurd it's just not what the EU wants us to do. Often in negotiations you need to do what hte other party doesn't want to get what you do.
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
There is plenty to show pride about in our history. There is also plenty to regret - or even feel ashamed about.
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
+1
Though according to YouGov in 2014 34% of UK voters would like Britain to still have an Empire, with 49% saying they would not.
Given Leave got 52% that suggests over half of Leave voters could indeed want to restore the British Empire
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
There is plenty to show pride about in our history. There is also plenty to regret - or even feel ashamed about.
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
That's a sensible comment.
Absolutely. On balance the Empire was a force for good. Its (more or less) peaceful dissolution was unique in human history.
Along the we’re there were dreadful events either by accident, carelessness or occasionally deliberately.
You can feel proud of the overall and condemn the specific. But to condemn the whole is to despise a huge part of what made Britain the country it is today
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
The minute people try playing the "patriot" card to claim that those with differing views are "unpatriotic" then it's a fair assumption that their other arguments aren't stacking up.
The border cobblers should have been immediately crushed by offering Varadkar an immediate United Ireland sans referendum. When he choked and refused, publicise his refusal as the Taoiseach who turned down Irish unity. There would have been no more talk of borders and backstops then.
won't that person be surprised if we get a vote and the people vote for a deal or no deal.
I don't know. Let's have a vote and find out?
I support another vote Scott, but the smug presumption that remain will win because of a large march is very complacent, and it will harden doubters considering it if said smug presumptions shows it isn't about a confirmatory vote, it's about getting it right this time.
If No Deal Remain would win if there was a referendum before Brexit day next March and even if there was not if we left on No Deal terms the next general election would likely be won by opposition parties on a pro return to the single market and customs union platform anyway
Remain might well win. Complacently assuming it would because if a march is stupid, not least because while the march was i am sure almost entirely for remain, there are those who would probably back a deal in such a vote and parliament may struggle to pass legislation for one if it is only backed by continuity remainers
If Brexiteers are so stupid as to push No Deal Brexit they will likely kill Brexit sooner or later or at least ensure we return permanently to the single market and customs union after the next general election.
If there is a Deal then yes Brexit would likely still beat Remain
Of course few outright suppor or within it's time to decide .
Have a good day all.
We have to have es
Just to understand: you believe that just because the EU says “you must do this” we need to bend over?
Non angeli sed angli
As I said yesterday I know No Deal does not bother you but it will hit the UK more than it hits the EU with very damaging consequences for the economy and potentially the Union too.
Most NI voters want no hard border and to stay in the SM and CU, dying in the ditch to oppose the backstop and thus ensuring no transition period, no FTA and no deal is absurd
Try answering the question rather than reposting your usual screed of nonsense
I have answered the question quite clearly, opposing the backstop leading to No Deal is an absurd position as not only do most NI voters want to stay in the SM and CU and a hard border makes a United Ireland more likely but most GB voters would prefer a SM and CU for NI and a FTA for GB than No Deal
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
There is plenty to show pride about in our history. There is also plenty to regret - or even feel ashamed about.
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
+1
Though according to YouGov in 2014 34% of UK voters would like Britain to still have an Empire, with 49% saying they would not.
Given Leave got 52% that suggests over half of Leave voters could indeed want to restore the British Empire
You can’t draw that conclusion from the data you’ve presented
It’s perfectly possible that progressive Remainers might want the U.K. to still have an Empire to (a) ensure that their social views were established throughout the world; or (b) to accelerate the growth of the EU into a One World Government
I saw him give a lecture a few months ago where he said the same thing. He was obviously very disappointed about Brexit but thought a second referendum wasn't the right thing to do.
There's a section of the elite that regards implementing Brexit as a virility test, regardless of whether they agree with it. They just use democracy as a smokescreen.
Democracy as a smokescreen?
Sorry - that really is your side of the arguments claim to fame.
Wishful thinking on both fronts I think, the EU are not going to budge on the backstop especially when No Deal poses a bigger risk to our economy than theirs and NI Catholics are not going to shift from backing a United Ireland if a hard border in Ireland
And you know this for sure? Is there a YouGov poll with a 1% margin that you're about to quote?
You're assuming that a unification referendum will be a rerun if the EU referendum, it won't be. Just as GE2017 wasn't. It will be the bread and butter issues like the NHS and welfare which motivate people to go and vote. Unification means no more NHS, that's a huge, huge drawback and there's literally no getting around it.
56% of Northern Irish voters back a United Ireland if a hard border and of course the Republic of Ireland now has a higher GDP per capita than the UK, it is now much more able to afford to integrate Northern Ireland than it was 40 years ago
Ireland has a bunch of phantom money that doesn't really ever go through Ireland, at least not in real life. It means GDP is high but the people don't benefit.
There is literally no way that Ireland is going to spend 15% of its annual budget on keeping the NI subsidy going to they can have a better standard of living compared to the South. If NI leaves the Union then it leaves the NHS, grammar schools and other social programmes behind.
The healthcare system in Ireland is fully free for those on welfare and low earners with a Medical Card ibly
You think the N.
Well if the Republic of Ireland imposed direct rule on Northern Ireland, Protestant paramilitaries would respond in the same way the IRA did when Westminster imposed direct rule on Northern Ireland during the Troubles
They wouldn't be "imposing direct rule". If Northern Ireland voted for (and presumably the Republic agreed) unification, the existing Northern Ireland structures would likely cease to exist. "Northern" Ireland would cease to exist. Otherwise it wouldn't be a unification of Ireland, simply a cessation from the UK.
If it did so Protestant voters would almost certainly have voted to stay in the UK and without giving them significant autonomy the Protestant minority in NI will respond to direct rule from Dublin in exactly the same way as the Catholic minority in NI responded to direct rule from London
won't that person be surprised if we get a vote and the people vote for a deal or no deal.
I
I support another vote Scott, but the smug presumption that remain will win because of a large march is very complacent, and it will harden doubters considering it if said smug presumptions shows it isn't about a confirmatory vote, it's about getting it right this time.
If No Deal Remain would win if there was a referendum before Brexit day next March and even if there was not if we left on No Deal terms the next general election would likely be won by opposition parties on a pro return to the single market and customs union platform anyway
Remain might well win. Complacently assuming it would because if a march is stupid, not least because while the march was i am sure almost entirely for remain, there are those who would probably back a deal in such a vote and parliament may struggle to pass legislation for one if it is only backed by continuity remainers
If Brexiteers are so stupid as to push No Deal Brexit they will likely kill Brexit sooner or later or at least ensure we return permanently to the single market and customs union after the next general election.
If there is a Deal then yes Brexit would likely still beat Remain
Of course few outright suppor or within it's time to decide .
Have a good day all.
We have to have es
Just to understand: you believe that just because the EU says “you must do this” we need to bend over?
Non angeli sed angli
As I said yesterday I know No Deal does not bother you but it will hit the UK more than it hits the EU with very damaging consequences for the economy and potentially the Union too.
Most NI voters want no hard border and to stay in the SM and CU, dying in the ditch to oppose the backstop and thus ensuring no transition period, no FTA and no deal is absurd
Try answering the question rather than reposting your usual screed of nonsense
I have answered the question quite clearly, opposing the backstop leading to No Deal is an absurd position as not only do most NI voters want to stay in the SM and CU and a hard border makes a United Ireland more likely but most GB voters would prefer a SM and CU for NI and a FTA for GB than No Deal
The question was: what demand from the EU would be too much for you to accept?
I saw him give a lecture a few months ago where he said the same thing. He was obviously very disappointed about Brexit but thought a second referendum wasn't the right thing to do.
As I said yesterday I know No Deal does not bother you but it will hit the UK more than it hits the EU with very damaging consequences for the economy and potentially the Union too.
Most NI voters want no hard border and to stay in the SM and CU, dying in the ditch to oppose the backstop and thus ensuring no transition period, no FTA and no deal is absurd
No it's not absurd it's just not what the EU wants us to do. Often in negotiations you need to do what hte other party doesn't want to get what you do.
Not when a breakup of negotiations is significantly more of a threat to you than them, the backstop is in any case what most of the people in NI want to respect the GFA, not just what the EU wants
That's only really a problem if the question was exactly the same.
If it's positioned as
1. We're currently leaving, do you accept the deal on offer: Yes/No 2. If No, then do you wish to Leave No Deal or Remain
then I can't see the problem. It's not telling you "vote again and get it right", it's telling you to confirm your original position based on new information.
Whether we are talking about (Northern) Ireland or Scotland, surely what the Brexit vote has demonstrated is that a post secession settlement will largely have to be agreed in advance of any final votes to leave. The SNP are not going to be able to put forward an Independence platform that relies on the rUK or the EU acting as they hope they will act, rather than as they might actually do (and from a hostile position and potentially prepared to ignore mutual economic benefits/harm). The North (and indeed the Republic) are not going to vote for unification without it being clear how the costs are going to be funded and how the future relationship with the UK will be managed.
So anyone stating from a position of certainty that various UK/EU deals or non deals "will" lead to secession of one or both is simply ignoring that such decisions will potentially require the voters in those territories to behave no differently to the Brexit voters in the UK who are so scorned.
Raab emphasises if a backstop is agreed conditions need to be known as to when it ends on Marr, on most other issues a Deal already agreed
In line with people are willing to accept and very different from your hysterical postings
Most people in GB could not care less if we agree the NI backstop, they care a great deal that we avoid No Deal bar diehard Leavers
The PM has a greater responsibility than just slavishly following the polls
Yes, like resisting DUP blackmail. I notice the DUP make no complaint about the fact NI does not have gay marriage or legalised abortion unlike mainland GB so it is quite happy to have separate rules for NI when it suits!
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
There is plenty to show pride about in our history. There is also plenty to regret - or even feel ashamed about.
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
That's a sensible comment.
Absolutely. On balance the Empire was a force for good. Its (more or less) peaceful dissolution was unique in human history.
Along the we’re there were dreadful events either by accident, carelessness or occasionally deliberately.
You can feel proud of the overall and condemn the specific. But to condemn the whole is to despise a huge part of what made Britain the country it is today
The British Empire was finally ended by WW1 and WW2. Neither of which could be described as particularly peaceful.
The unique thing about the British Empire is that we didn’t want it in the first place. Having finally got rid, why would we hobble ourselves with it again?
Wonder how we would feel if we heard French, German, Japanese or Russian politicians talk about restoring their empires.
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
There is plenty to show pride about in our history. There is also plenty to regret - or even feel ashamed about.
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
+1
Though according to YouGov in 2014 34% of UK voters would like Britain to still have an Empire, with 49% saying they would not.
Given Leave got 52% that suggests over half of Leave voters could indeed want to restore the British Empire
You can’t draw that conclusion from the data you’ve presented
It’s perfectly possible that progressive Remainers might want the U.K. to still have an Empire to (a) ensure that their social views were established throughout the world; or (b) to accelerate the growth of the EU into a One World Government
Well you could think Remainers want to restore the British Empire to promote universal social liberalism but I would suggest that unlikely, the question was also specifically about restoring the British Empire not about creating a global Empire for an EU we are now leaving anyway
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
There is plenty to show pride about in our history. There is also plenty to regret - or even feel ashamed about.
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
That's a sensible comment.
Don't worry. Normal service shall be resumed soon. Or after I buy some more AAA batteries for this *^&&*%^&% wireless keyboard ...
won't that person be surprised if we get a vote and the people vote for a deal or no deal.
I
I support another vote Scott, but the smu vote, it's about getting it right this time.
If No Deal Remain would win if tho return to the single market and customs union platform anyway
Remain might well wicontinuity remainers
If Brexiteers are so stupid as to push No Deal Brexit they will likely kill Brexit sooner or later or at least ensure we return permanently to the single market and customs union after the next general election.
If there is a Deal then yes Brexit would likely still beat Remain
Of course few outright suppor or within it's time to decide .
Have a good day all.
We have to have es
Just to understand: you believe that just because the EU says “you must do this” we need to bend over?
Non angeli sed angli
As I said yesterday I know No Deal does not bother you but it will hit the UK more than it hits the EU with very damaging consequences for the economy and potentially the Union too.
Most NI voters want no hard border and to stay in the SM and CU, dying in the ditch to oppose the backstop and thus ensuring no transition period, no FTA and no deal is absurd
Try answering the question rather than reposting your usual screed of nonsense
I have answered the question quite clearly, opposing the backstop leading to No Deal is an absurd position as not only do most NI voters want to stay in the SM and CU and a hard border makes a United Ireland more likely but most GB voters would prefer a SM and CU for NI and a FTA for GB than No Deal
The question was: what demand from the EU would be too much for you to accept?
You’ve not answered that.
I have consistently, the 'demand' from the EU for no hard border in Ireland and a backstop that keeps NI in the SM and CU and protects the Good Friday Agreement to enable free trade agreement talks is perfectly acceptable to me and I suggest most NI and GB voters too bar DUP voters and diehard Leavers
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
There is plenty to show pride about in our history. There is also plenty to regret - or even feel ashamed about.
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
That's a sensible comment.
Absolutely. On balance the Empire was a force for good. Its (more or less) peaceful dissolution was unique in human history.
Along the we’re there were dreadful events either by accident, carelessness or occasionally deliberately.
You can feel proud of the overall and condemn the specific. But to condemn the whole is to despise a huge part of what made Britain the country it is today
The British Empire was finally ended by WW1 and WW2. Neither of which could be described as particularly peaceful.
The unique thing about the British Empire is that we didn’t want it in the first place. Having finally got rid, why would we hobble ourselves with it again?
Wonder how we would feel if we heard French, German, Japanese or Russian politicians talk about restoring their empires.
I should think to be fair most Russians would happily bring back the Russian 'Empire' as it was at the time of the Soviet Union.
While the EU is not a German Empire, Germany is the most powerful nation in it
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
There is plenty to show pride about in our history. There is also plenty to regret - or even feel ashamed about.
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
That's a sensible comment.
Absolutely. On balance the Empire was a force for good. Its (more or less) peaceful dissolution was unique in human history.
Along the we’re there were dreadful events either by accident, carelessness or occasionally deliberately.
You can feel proud of the overall and condemn the specific. But to condemn the whole is to despise a huge part of what made Britain the country it is today
The British Empire was finally ended by WW1 and WW2. Neither of which could be described as particularly peaceful.
The unique thing about the British Empire is that we didn’t want it in the first place. Having finally got rid, why would we hobble ourselves with it again?
Wonder how we would feel if we heard French, German, Japanese or Russian politicians talk about restoring their empires.
The common image of the Empire is the 20th century 'Jewel in the Crown' when it certainly was a drain on British resources.
The Empire was at its most important in the 18th century when we simultaneously had a 'Settlement Empire' in North America, a 'Trading Empire' in Asia and an 'Exploitation Empire' in the Caribbean and Africa.
The occult turned partisan on Saturday as a coven of New York witches placed a hex on US Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh. Dozens attended the event at Brooklyn's Catland Books, which was also streamed online.
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
There is plenty to show pride about in our history. There is also plenty to regret - or even feel ashamed about.
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
That's a sensible comment.
Don't worry. Normal service shall be resumed soon. Or after I buy some more AAA batteries for this *^&&*%^&% wireless keyboard ...
My wireless keyboard lasts about four years between battery changes.
But my wireless mouse lasts only about four months.
Its one of the little things which I'm curious about.
When they start talking about 47.5 letters, or 47 letters and an email/fax/carrier pigeon/smoke signal, then we can probably close this one down completely.
Raab is looking more and more like a serious contender for the leadership.
From a Labour point of view, that's perfect.
Raab just comes across as a vacuous charisma-less Tory dimwit. Theresa May is a colossus compared to a non-entity imbecile like Raab.
Do you try to be an imbecile or were you just born that way? Given the stupidity you exude with every post I'm going to go with the latter, but that might be putting undue blame on your upbringing which makes me think you really do try very hard to be the most idiotic person on pb, which is quite an achievement given the general level of discourse we've had since 2016.
Don't beat about the bush. What do you really think?
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
There is plenty to show pride about in our history. There is also plenty to regret - or even feel ashamed about.
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
That's a sensible comment.
Absolutely. On balance the Empire was a force for good. Its (more or less) peaceful dissolution was unique in human history.
Along the we’re there were dreadful events either by accident, carelessness or occasionally deliberately.
You can feel proud of the overall and condemn the specific. But to condemn the whole is to despise a huge part of what made Britain the country it is today
The British Empire was finally ended by WW1 and WW2. Neither of which could be described as particularly peaceful.
The unique thing about the British Empire is that we didn’t want it in the first place. Having finally got rid, why would we hobble ourselves with it again?
Wonder how we would feel if we heard French, German, Japanese or Russian politicians talk about restoring their empires.
The common image of the Empire is the 20th century 'Jewel in the Crown' when it certainly was a drain on British resources.
The Empire was at its most important in the 18th century when we simultaneously had a 'Settlement Empire' in North America, a 'Trading Empire' in Asia and an 'Exploitation Empire' in the Caribbean and Africa.
Well quite. None of the three early Empires you describe are remotely relevant or possible today.
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
There is plenty to show pride about in our history. There is also plenty to regret - or even feel ashamed about.
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
That's a sensible comment.
Absolutely. On balance the Empire was a force for good. Its (more or less) peaceful dissolution was unique in human history.
Along the we’re there were dreadful events either by accident, carelessness or occasionally deliberately.
You can feel proud of the overall and condemn the specific. But to condemn the whole is to despise a huge part of what made Britain the country it is today
The British Empire was finally ended by WW1 and WW2. Neither of which could be described as particularly peaceful.
The unique thing about the British Empire is that we didn’t want it in the first place. Having finally got rid, why would we hobble ourselves with it again?
Wonder how we would feel if we heard French, German, Japanese or Russian politicians talk about restoring their empires.
The wars made continuation untenable, I agree. But at least we figured that out instead of fighting to the last
That's only really a problem if the question was exactly the same.
If it's positioned as
1. We're currently leaving, do you accept the deal on offer: Yes/No 2. If No, then do you wish to Leave No Deal or Remain
then I can't see the problem. It's not telling you "vote again and get it right", it's telling you to confirm your original position based on new information.
So how would that work exactly in terms of voting.
Would be have the first vote on yes or no to the deal and if no then have a second round two weeks later on no deal or remain?
And what exactly does remain mean moving forward anyway - do we need remain options e.g. would you still want remain if the EU insisted we lost our rebate or increased our budget contributions generally. Cos remain isn't a fixed path either. I cannnot believe the other 27 wouldnt extract a price in our hour of humiliation after wasting their time for the last 30 months.
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
Laughing at Nigel Fucking Farage is not "showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage"
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Siding with Nigel Fucking Farage is why I am absolutely right to oppose you.
You are laughing at someone referencing pride in this country's history.
That is the behaviour of those on the contemptuous Left.
There is plenty to show pride about in our history. There is also plenty to regret - or even feel ashamed about.
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
That's a sensible comment.
Absolutely. On balance the Empire was a force for good. Its (more or less) peaceful dissolution was unique in human history.
Along the we’re there were dreadful events either by accident, carelessness or occasionally deliberately.
You can feel proud of the overall and condemn the specific. But to condemn the whole is to despise a huge part of what made Britain the country it is today
The British Empire was finally ended by WW1 and WW2. Neither of which could be described as particularly peaceful.
The unique thing about the British Empire is that we didn’t want it in the first place. Having finally got rid, why would we hobble ourselves with it again?
Wonder how we would feel if we heard French, German, Japanese or Russian politicians talk about restoring their empires.
The wars made continuation untenable, I agree. But at least we figured that out instead of fighting to the last
WW1 ended British dominance. WW2 decided what came next.
When they start talking about 47.5 letters, or 47 letters and an email/fax/carrier pigeon/smoke signal, then we can probably close this one down completely.
Judging by some media reports, there appear to be more letters than actual Tory MPs.
That's only really a problem if the question was exactly the same.
If it's positioned as
1. We're currently leaving, do you accept the deal on offer: Yes/No 2. If No, then do you wish to Leave No Deal or Remain
then I can't see the problem. It's not telling you "vote again and get it right", it's telling you to confirm your original position based on new information.
I'm not sure it's even that - rather, it's asking that you confirm a vital piece of information about your original position which the referendum neglected to ask.
This is an extract from David Davis article in today’s Mail on Sunday
‘We are running out of time and we should not fear a ‘no deal’ outcome. Given the EU’s intransigence, we should now step up such preparations.
The paradox is that the more we do, the less likely it becomes. Because if we do, the EU will strike a deal. We have many cards in our favour and the EU knows it. As do the nation states and their industrial leaders. The chief economist of Deutsche Bank, Germany’s biggest bank has said that outside the EU, ‘the UK will do just as well or better not least because outside the Eurozone we have flexible exchange rates. In the event of no deal, our currency would adjust, making EU goods such as German cars about one third more expensive than before 2016, leading to a drop of German car sales to the UK of about a third.’
He goes on to say ‘The UK also should be taking world class legal advice now. We already know that any aggressive threats of discrimination against our goods and services would be illegal under World Trade Organisation rules and indeed article 8 of the Lisbon treaty
He says ‘Many of the threats are project fear mark 2 when it has become patently clear project fear mark 1 was demonstrably incorrect. And of course there are many countries outside the EU waiting to make free trade deals with us. Neither should we forget that, in the event of no dal, there are forces we can unleash to kick start our economy. ‘
‘He goes on to say British companies have cash reserves of £613 billion and investment of just three per cent of that (£18 billion) is one per cent of gdp.
And so it goes on all under a photograph of him as a Battle of Britain ace in front of a spitfire
It is just so extraordinary and it saddens me that a group of otherwise sensible conservative mps have been overtaken by the cult of Brexit with no care of the damage they are inflicting on the conservative party. What on earth do they think they are doing to the conservative party of which I am a member? Am I not allowed a view.
No David, neither you or the ERG speak for this conservative member who cherishes business and the union of the UK and Northern Ireland
That's only really a problem if the question was exactly the same.
If it's positioned as
1. We're currently leaving, do you accept the deal on offer: Yes/No 2. If No, then do you wish to Leave No Deal or Remain
then I can't see the problem. It's not telling you "vote again and get it right", it's telling you to confirm your original position based on new information.
So how would that work exactly in terms of voting.
Would be have the first vote on yes or no to the deal and if no then have a second round two weeks later on no deal or remain?
And what exactly does remain mean moving forward anyway - do we need remain options e.g. would you still want remain if the EU insisted we lost our rebate or increased our budget contributions generally. Cos remain isn't a fixed path either. I cannnot believe the other 27 wouldnt extract a price in our hour of humiliation after wasting their time for the last 30 months.
Both fair questions. There's probably people smarter than me who'll have better answers but I'd have both questions on the ballot paper. If 1. is a straightforward Yes to the deal then 2. is irrelevant.
Yes, the second question would have to be worded in such a way that it was clear "remaining" may not necessarily be on exactly the same terms as before.
But presumably if we get to the stage of having a second referendum then we're going to have to tell the EU that is our plan, at which point presumably any grown ups left in the room can talk about what happens in both hypothetical cases of the deal being rejected.
When they start talking about 47.5 letters, or 47 letters and an email/fax/carrier pigeon/smoke signal, then we can probably close this one down completely.
Judging by some media reports, there appear to be more letters than actual Tory MPs.
There's a special version of Zeno's paradox in play, whereby the number of letters is always increasing but never reaches its target.
Morning, How many hours has May survived in the "Killing zone" so far ?
Anyone who suggested it is a killing zone or the mp who said she should 'bring her own noose' to the 1922 must be ejected from the party and whip withdrawn. Have they not learnt from Joe Cox
Raab emphasises if a backstop is agreed conditions need to be known as to when it ends on Marr, on most other issues a Deal already agreed
In line with people are willing to accept and very different from your hysterical postings
Most people in GB could not care less if we agree the NI backstop, they care a great deal that we avoid No Deal bar diehard Leavers
Wrong again. John Curtice reports that only 26% support NI backstop with 42% against.
84.9% of NI voters would prefer a 'soft Brexit' of staying in the SM and CU for either the UK OR just NI to just 15% who would prefer a 'hard Brexit' for all of the UK
It is hard to judge the size of the crowd when in the middle of it, but even harder from California.
My experience of crowds is from football grounds dispersing. It was about 10 times the size of the biggest of those that I have been in. Whether it was 700 000 or a mere half million is hard to judge.
Big enough to demonstrate the complete failure of the Brexiteers to convince though. The backlash and aftershocks of Brexit are not going to be good for the Tories. The Iraq war was survived by Labour, but the mendacity and arrogance of the leadership makes them pariahs. The parallel with Brexit is there to be seen.
One big difference between Labours Iraq war and the Tories Brexit is that Labour did it against many of their own supporters whilst the Tories are largely in favour of Brexit.
I still see the potential negative effects for the Tories but I wonder how that will change the impact of it.
Yes, it is true that the majority of Tory members are Leavers, a significant proportion of their voters are not. The three areas of lost voters post Brexit will include:
1) Remainers 2) WWC voters who support Leave but otherwise find the Tories anathema 3) Those wanting competence in government.
Certainly there needs to be alternatives to vote for, and apart from 2) not much Corbyn can appeal to, but it doesn't look good for the Tories.
Given 1 and 3 I'm not really clear therefore why the Tory numbers are not much worse now, pre brexit.
Jez.
But if that is so there's no reason to presume a big drop post brexit either.
Think of it like comparative field strengths. At the moment, the Jez-repulsive-field overwhelms the Tory-repulsive-field. However, the more the Tory-repulsive-field increases, the closer we get to the point where it overcomes the potential barrier of the Jez-repulsive-field (we may even have quantum tunnelling through the Jez-repulsive-field barrier already of some more weakly-held swing voters)
I was sufficiently repelled by the Maybot's use of the phrase "citizens of nowhere" that I would prefer JC to be PM. He is also less likely to lick the blood-stained hands of the criminal Saudi regime.
That's true. He much prefers the blood stained hands of Iran and Hezbollah.
This is an extract from David Davis article in today’s Mail on Sunday
‘We are running out of time and we should not fear a ‘no deal’ outcome. Given the EU’s intransigence, we should now step up such preparations.
The paradox is that the more we do, the less likely it becomes. Because if we do, the EU will strike a deal. We have many cards in our favour and the EU knows it. As do the nation states and their industrial leaders. The chief economist of Deutsche Bank, Germany’s biggest bank has said that outside the EU, ‘the UK will do just as well or better not least because outside the Eurozone we have flexible exchange rates. In the event of no deal, our currency would adjust, making EU goods such as German cars about one third more expensive than before 2016, leading to a drop of German car sales to the UK of about a third.’
He goes on to say ‘The UK also should be taking world class legal advice now. We already know that any aggressive threats of discrimination against our goods and services would be illegal under World Trade Organisation rules and indeed article 8 of the Lisbon treaty
He says ‘Many of the threats are project fear mark 2 when it has become patently clear project fear mark 1 was demonstrably incorrect. And of course there are many countries outside the EU waiting to make free trade deals with us. Neither should we forget that, in the event of no dal, there are forces we can unleash to kick start our economy. ‘
‘He goes on to say British companies have cash reserves of £613 billion and investment of just three per cent of that (£18 billion) is one per cent of gdp.
And so it goes on all under a photograph of him as a Battle of Britain ace in front of a spitfire
It is just so extraordinary and it saddens me that a group of otherwise sensible conservative mps have been overtaken by the cult of Brexit with no care of the damage they are inflicting on the conservative party. What on earth do they think they are doing to the conservative party of which I am a member? Am I not allowed a view.
No David, neither you or the ERG speak for this conservative member who cherishes business and the union of the UK and Northern Ireland
Two things jump out from that immediately. Wouldn't it have been a good idea for the former head of DExEU to have ensured world class legal advice was taken immediately the Brexit process started? And if there are forces we can unleash to kick start our economy, what with it being in fairly poor shape and all, perhaps we should get on with some unleashing regardless of the Brexit outcome? If these forces are somehow leashed due to our membership of the EU it would be helpful if Davis et al could explain exactly what those constraints are and what is going to change for the better if there's no deal.
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Would you find it funny if the Greeks Romans or Egyptians talked about their Empires would you think they were ridiculous or patriots?
This is an extract from David Davis article in today’s Mail on Sunday
‘We are running out of time and we should not fear a ‘no deal’ outcome. Given the EU’s intransigence, we should now step up such preparations.
The paradox is that the more we do, the less likely it becomes. Because if we do, the EU will strike a deal. We have many cards in our favour and the EU knows it. As do the nation states and their industrial leaders. The chief economist of Deutsche Bank, Germany’s biggest bank has said that outside the EU, ‘the UK will do just as well or better not least because outside the Eurozone we have flexible exchange rates. In the event of no deal, our currency would adjust, making EU goods such as German cars about one third more expensive than before 2016, leading to a drop of German car sales to the UK of about a third.’
He goes on to say ‘The UK also should be taking world class legal advice now. We already know that any aggressive threats of discrimination against our goods and services would be illegal under World Trade Organisation rules and indeed article 8 of the Lisbon treaty
He says ‘Many of the threats are project fear mark 2 when it has become patently clear project fear mark 1 was demonstrably incorrect. And of course there are many countries outside the EU waiting to make free trade deals with us. Neither should we forget that, in the event of no dal, there are forces we can unleash to kick start our economy. ‘
‘He goes on to say British companies have cash reserves of £613 billion and investment of just three per cent of that (£18 billion) is one per cent of gdp.
And so it goes on all under a photograph of him as a Battle of Britain ace in front of a spitfire
It is just so extraordinary and it saddens me that a group of otherwise sensible conservative mps have been overtaken by the cult of Brexit with no care of the damage they are inflicting on the conservative party. What on earth do they think they are doing to the conservative party of which I am a member? Am I not allowed a view.
No David, neither you or the ERG speak for this conservative member who cherishes business and the union of the UK and Northern Ireland
Good to see you see the danger a bit more this morning BigG, if we do not agree a backstop for NI by the end of November as the ERG and DUP have blocked it and May has been toppled and replaced by PM Davis then it will be No Deal with all the threat to business and the Union and the boost for the SNP and Sinn Fein that represents
Mr. Polruan, is that the paradox regarding a tortoise that can never be caught?
That's the one - Achilles can never reach the tortoise because by the time he reaches the place where it was, it's already moved. Not dissimilar to asking for a clear reply to a question about the economic benefits of Brexit in some ways...
Strictly not a good example here because AFAIK the number of letters required isn't moving. A refinement of the paradox is attributed to Aristotle which uses a similar principle to say that you can't ever reach any given fixed point because first you have to travel half the distance, then half the remaining distance.... and so on to infinity. Perhaps more applicable here.
Could anyone watch the march yesterday without getting very angry indeed?
We are currently members of the best club in the world. A club which gives unfettered access to move live and work in any one of twenty seven different countries stretching from the arctic to the shores of Africa
I watched it from an ochre coloured Nice as the sun went down. A more beautiful city than I'm capable of describing and I wondered how we could have allowed ourselves to be taken in by the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg and Nigel farage who have nothing in common with any of us.
You'd have found a lot of people on the march who agreed with you. The good news is that they seemed to me to be the sort of people who know how to get things done. And there were a lot of people making contacts and getting organised. I think we'll see Brexit opponents getting their act together.
The Remain campaign, at least in the areas I know about, was very less well managed than the original Join campaign in 1975. There were, so far as I could see, no local committees organising leafletting, public meetings and so on, as we did in 1975. I went and looked; I suppose I should have organised one, but I’m getting a bit long in the tooth. I recall, from 1975, sitting outside my house about 8pm with a neighbour, a (very) Tory councillor. We had been out with a loudspeaker van (well, a loudspeaker, property of the local Liberal party, on the roof rack of my car) from midday onwards, and were discussing what to do next. After all, under normal electoral circumstances we’d have been knocking up, but we hadn’t done any canvassing.
There never was a 'Join' campaign. By the time of the June 1975 Referendum , we had already been members of the EEC for almost 2.5 years.
This is an extract from David Davis article in today’s Mail on Sunday
‘We are running out of time and we should not fear a ‘no deal’ outcome. Given the EU’s intransigence, we should now step up such preparations.
The paradox is that the more we do, the less likely it becomes. Because if we do, the EU will strike a deal. We have many cards in our favour and the EU knows it. As do the nation states and their industrial leaders. The chief economist of Deutsche Bank, Germany’s biggest bank has said that outside the EU, ‘the UK will do just as well or better not least because outside the Eurozone we have flexible exchange rates. In the event of no deal, our currency would adjust, making EU goods such as German cars about one third more expensive than before 2016, leading to a drop of German car sales to the UK of about a third.’
He goes on to say ‘The UK also should be taking world class legal advice now. We already know that any aggressive threats of discrimination against our goods and services would be illegal under World Trade Organisation rules and indeed article 8 of the Lisbon treaty
He says ‘Many of the threats are project fear mark 2 when it has become patently clear project fear mark 1 was demonstrably incorrect. And of course there are many countries outside the EU waiting to make free trade deals with us. Neither should we forget that, in the event of no dal, there are forces we can unleash to kick start our economy. ‘
‘He goes on to say British companies have cash reserves of £613 billion and investment of just three per cent of that (£18 billion) is one per cent of gdp.
And so it goes on all under a photograph of him as a Battle of Britain ace in front of a spitfire
It is just so extraordinary and it saddens me that a group of otherwise sensible conservative mps have been overtaken by the cult of Brexit with no care of the damage they are inflicting on the conservative party. What on earth do they think they are doing to the conservative party of which I am a member? Am I not allowed a view.
No David, neither you or the ERG speak for this conservative member who cherishes business and the union of the UK and Northern Ireland
Good to see you see the danger a bit more this morning BigG, if we do not agree a backstop for NI by the end of November as the ERG and DUP have blocked it and May has been toppled and replaced by PM Davis then it will be No Deal with all the threat to business and the Union and the boost for the SNP and Sinn Fein that represents
Isn't that really a proxy for the Commonwealth and the Anglosphere - our historic links to countries where the common or national language is English. No one surely seriously thinks we are going to resurrect the actual Empire.
The Commonwealth of nations has a population of over 2.4 billion - nearly five times that of the EU. You know places that drive on the correct side of the road, where English is the spoken language or often the main common language of communication, enjoy the strange sport that is cricket, play rugby and which we have historic ties for better or worse and which will see an ever rising share of world trade over the next century as the EU declines.
Look in poll after poll what are the nations Brits would like to emigrate to and there aren't many in the EU who rank highly even though we have that right now. There is a reason the number of Brits who have moved to eastern Europe post 2004 is probably in the thousands rather than the hundreds of thousands or millions - language barriers do matter. In the end freedom of movement isn't really much use when you have no interest in moving to the countries on offer!
In the end there is a huge difference between being neighbours and being friends!
Morning, How many hours has May survived in the "Killing zone" so far ?
Anyone who suggested it is a killing zone or the mp who said she should 'bring her own noose' to the 1922 must be ejected from the party and whip withdrawn. Have they not learnt from Joe Cox
Jo Cox was killed by a homicidal Brexit enthusiast, not a metaphor.
Morning, How many hours has May survived in the "Killing zone" so far ?
Anyone who suggested it is a killing zone or the mp who said she should 'bring her own noose' to the 1922 must be ejected from the party and whip withdrawn. Have they not learnt from Joe Cox
Jo Cox was killed by a homicidal Brexit enthusiast, not a metaphor.
Morning, How many hours has May survived in the "Killing zone" so far ?
Anyone who suggested it is a killing zone or the mp who said she should 'bring her own noose' to the 1922 must be ejected from the party and whip withdrawn. Have they not learnt from Joe Cox
Jo Cox was killed by a homicidal Brexit enthusiast, not a metaphor.
And, he is hated as much by Brexiteers as by you.
That act probably turned a 56-44% win for Leave into a much narrower one, and darkened the clouds that lay over it at birth.
Cling to nurse for fear of worse? Love him or fear him, Corbyn... well, that's the thing. People love him or fear him. If you fear him, where are you going to go? To keep him out, FPTP dictates you have no choice or freedom: it's the Tories, or... well, it's the Tories.
It's the "charm" of FPTP. You don't actually have to be any good, or provide what people want. You just have to be less repulsive or frightening than the alternative. One reason why the Big Two each spend so much time painting the other as unutterably repulsive or dangerous.
Oxygen is important too. Between elections oppositions struggle to get attention, and at the moment attention to Labour is almost zero, because all the action is on the Tory side. Lots of people sympathise with one Tory faction or another, so while it's all up in the air they're still leaning Tory. If one faction is decisively defeated, that may change.
As a Labour member, I regularly get updates on this or that Labour campaign - NHS, rail, Universal Credit, housing - and have handed out leaflets on some of them. Media coverage is negligible. Labour could change that if they suddenly took a strong Brexit position, but they judge - probably correctly in my view - that the time to do that is when May produces an actual outcome to be dissected. Demanding a second referendum against ANY outcome is harder than demanding one against a specific unpopular deal.
There is an upside too, and we saw it in 2017. When elections happen, suddenly the big parties get equal coverage. If you've got something to say, people notice and think it's quite fresh. If you don't - and, by and large, the Conservatives appear not to at present, except on Brexit - people notice that too.
I suspect that is absolutely right. Current polls are likely to be flattering the Tories simply because the Opposition has effectively been frozen out.In reality, Brexit is not a very salient issue in terms of voting behaviour, and voters would be more receptive to other concerns raised during an election campaign - as evidenced by the 2017 precedent.
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
The minute people try playing the "patriot" card to claim that those with differing views are "unpatriotic" then it's a fair assumption that their other arguments aren't stacking up.
Why do so many ultra Remainers think that showing off their contempt for this country's history and heritage is going to win over people to their side?
All it does it make Leave voting patriotic Britons think they are absolutely right to oppose you.
Would you find it funny if the Greeks Romans or Egyptians talked about their Empires would you think they were ridiculous or patriots?
I see you've spectacularly missed the point on here today, as have others.
Could anyone watch the march yesterday without getting very angry indeed?
We are currently members of the best club in the world. A club which gives unfettered access to move live and work in any one of twenty seven different countries stretching from the arctic to the shores of Africa
I watched it from an ochre coloured Nice as the sun went down. A more beautiful city than I'm capable of describing and I wondered how we could have allowed ourselves to be taken in by the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg and Nigel farage who have nothing in common with any of us.
You'd have found a lot of people on the march who agreed with you. The good news is that they seemed to me to be the sort of people who know how to get things done. And there were a lot of people making contacts and getting organised. I think we'll see Brexit opponents getting their act together.
The Remain campaign, at least in the areas I know about, was very less well managed than the original Join campaign in 1975. There were, so far as I could see, no local committees organising leafletting, public meetings and so on, as we did in 1975. I went and looked; I suppose I should have organised one, but I’m getting a bit long in the tooth. I recall, from 1975, sitting outside my house about 8pm with a neighbour, a (very) Tory councillor. We had been out with a loudspeaker van (well, a loudspeaker, property of the local Liberal party, on the roof rack of my car) from midday onwards, and were discussing what to do next. After all, under normal electoral circumstances we’d have been knocking up, but we hadn’t done any canvassing.
There never was a 'Join' campaign. By the time of the June 1975 Referendum , we had already been members of the EEC for almost 2.5 years.
Slip of the computer keyboard, nod by Homer, whatever. Apologies.
The fact remains that there was a strong, organised pro-Europe campaign in 1975, organised by the European Movement. It didn’t happen in 2016; TBH I got the impression that, at first anyway, many people who should have got out and organised thought that no-one would be daft enough to vote to Leave.
Even though UKIP had the biggest vote at the previous EU elections.
Comments
He was one of the people who gave key support to Occupy St Pauls.
He is also Vicar of a church in Kennington, so somewhat in contact with London Grass-Roots.
I don't think scepticism of that is exactly showing 'contempt for this country's history and heritage' not least as the former colonies affected which are now independent nations may have something to say about it!
Non angeli sed angli
I am laughing at someone who says they want to bring it back.
As should anyone sensible.
At least we have evidence that there was a march in London, and they probably weren't all Russian "tourists". Some random person spouts off on twitter and it could easily be a Russian bot - particularly if the tweet stands out for being absurd or outrageous.
If we are to protect ourselves from Russian attempts to sow discord then we have to try to listen to each other instead of playing the game of finding the most outrageous tweet from the other side and insisting that people agree that it makes the entirety of their position fallacious.
We have to relearn the art of wanting to find a compromise instead of wanting to defeat the other side, as though the half of the population of our country that disagrees with us is an enemy. We have real enemies enough in the world out there.
The Foxy / Jonathan yearning for the old days is based on the 'people like them should not be telling people like me what do to instead take it from them and give it to me' mentality.
https://twitter.com/alstewitn/status/1053928583171846144
Not that Farage isn’t an arse
Most NI voters want no hard border and to stay in the SM and CU, dying in the ditch to oppose the backstop and thus ensuring no transition period, no FTA and no deal is absurd
It depends what you think the opposite of "temporary" is.
Are you saying you described it as a “stupid take” without reading it?
If you feel full pride - and not a little shame - for the events and the existence of the Empire, then IMO you're taking patriotism to an idiotic level.
And I think there will be plenty on 'the right' who agree with that.
A country's history is not necessarily all wonderful and rosy. It's the right of all people to question parts of it. It doesn't make you less of a human being for doing that.
It seems like the march in London yesterday has done some weird things to the Brexit loons. Bizarre!
It’s where we can’t exit with the EU’s agreement that it’s a problem
Given Leave got 52% that suggests over half of Leave voters could indeed want to restore the British Empire
http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/6quatmbimd/Internal_Results_140725_Commonwealth_Empire-W.pdf (p2)
Along the we’re there were dreadful events either by accident, carelessness or occasionally deliberately.
You can feel proud of the overall and condemn the specific. But to condemn the whole is to despise a huge part of what made Britain the country it is today
It’s perfectly possible that progressive Remainers might want the U.K. to still have an Empire to (a) ensure that their social views were established throughout the world; or (b) to accelerate the growth of the EU into a One World Government
Sorry - that really is your side of the arguments claim to fame.
You’ve not answered that.
If it's positioned as
1. We're currently leaving, do you accept the deal on offer: Yes/No
2. If No, then do you wish to Leave No Deal or Remain
then I can't see the problem. It's not telling you "vote again and get it right", it's telling you to confirm your original position based on new information.
So anyone stating from a position of certainty that various UK/EU deals or non deals "will" lead to secession of one or both is simply ignoring that such decisions will potentially require the voters in those territories to behave no differently to the Brexit voters in the UK who are so scorned.
The unique thing about the British Empire is that we didn’t want it in the first place. Having finally got rid, why would we hobble ourselves with it again?
Wonder how we would feel if we heard French, German, Japanese or Russian politicians talk about restoring their empires.
While the EU is not a German Empire, Germany is the most powerful nation in it
The Empire was at its most important in the 18th century when we simultaneously had a 'Settlement Empire' in North America, a 'Trading Empire' in Asia and an 'Exploitation Empire' in the Caribbean and Africa.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45928212
The occult turned partisan on Saturday as a coven of New York witches placed a hex on US Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh.
Dozens attended the event at Brooklyn's Catland Books, which was also streamed online.
But my wireless mouse lasts only about four months.
Its one of the little things which I'm curious about.
Would be have the first vote on yes or no to the deal and if no then have a second round two weeks later on no deal or remain?
And what exactly does remain mean moving forward anyway - do we need remain options e.g. would you still want remain if the EU insisted we lost our rebate or increased our budget contributions generally. Cos remain isn't a fixed path either. I cannnot believe the other 27 wouldnt extract a price in our hour of humiliation after wasting their time for the last 30 months.
WW2 decided what came next.
‘We are running out of time and we should not fear a ‘no deal’ outcome. Given the EU’s intransigence, we should now step up such preparations.
The paradox is that the more we do, the less likely it becomes. Because if we do, the EU will strike a deal. We have many cards in our favour and the EU knows it. As do the nation states and their industrial leaders. The chief economist of Deutsche Bank, Germany’s biggest bank has said that outside the EU, ‘the UK will do just as well or better not least because outside the Eurozone we have flexible exchange rates. In the event of no deal, our currency would adjust, making EU goods such as German cars about one third more expensive than before 2016, leading to a drop of German car sales to the UK of about a third.’
He goes on to say ‘The UK also should be taking world class legal advice now. We already know that any aggressive threats of discrimination against our goods and services would be illegal under World Trade Organisation rules and indeed article 8 of the Lisbon treaty
He says ‘Many of the threats are project fear mark 2 when it has become patently clear project fear mark 1 was demonstrably incorrect. And of course there are many countries outside the EU waiting to make free trade deals with us. Neither should we forget that, in the event of no dal, there are forces we can unleash to kick start our economy. ‘
‘He goes on to say British companies have cash reserves of £613 billion and investment of just three per cent of that (£18 billion) is one per cent of gdp.
And so it goes on all under a photograph of him as a Battle of Britain ace in front of a spitfire
It is just so extraordinary and it saddens me that a group of otherwise sensible conservative mps have been overtaken by the cult of Brexit with no care of the damage they are inflicting on the conservative party. What on earth do they think they are doing to the conservative party of which I am a member? Am I not allowed a view.
No David, neither you or the ERG speak for this conservative member who cherishes business and the union of the UK and Northern Ireland
Yes, the second question would have to be worded in such a way that it was clear "remaining" may not necessarily be on exactly the same terms as before.
But presumably if we get to the stage of having a second referendum then we're going to have to tell the EU that is our plan, at which point presumably any grown ups left in the room can talk about what happens in both hypothetical cases of the deal being rejected.
https://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/brexitni/BrexitandtheBorder/Report/Filetoupload,820734,en.pdf
In terms of GB given a forced choice between a backstop for NI and a FTA for GB or No Deal for the whole UK GB voters would back the former
Strictly not a good example here because AFAIK the number of letters required isn't moving. A refinement of the paradox is attributed to Aristotle which uses a similar principle to say that you can't ever reach any given fixed point because first you have to travel half the distance, then half the remaining distance.... and so on to infinity. Perhaps more applicable here.
The Commonwealth of nations has a population of over 2.4 billion - nearly five times that of the EU. You know places that drive on the correct side of the road, where English is the spoken language or often the main common language of communication, enjoy the strange sport that is cricket, play rugby and which we have historic ties for better or worse and which will see an ever rising share of world trade over the next century as the EU declines.
Look in poll after poll what are the nations Brits would like to emigrate to and there aren't many in the EU who rank highly even though we have that right now. There is a reason the number of Brits who have moved to eastern Europe post 2004 is probably in the thousands rather than the hundreds of thousands or millions - language barriers do matter. In the end freedom of movement isn't really much use when you have no interest in moving to the countries on offer!
In the end there is a huge difference between being neighbours and being friends!
That act probably turned a 56-44% win for Leave into a much narrower one, and darkened the clouds that lay over it at birth.
The fact remains that there was a strong, organised pro-Europe campaign in 1975, organised by the European Movement. It didn’t happen in 2016; TBH I got the impression that, at first anyway, many people who should have got out and organised thought that no-one would be daft enough to vote to Leave.
Even though UKIP had the biggest vote at the previous EU elections.