If you wanted to scrap the House of Lords you’d act as Jeremy Corbyn is acting. I expect he’d not bother replacing it. A unicameral system would suit his big plans much better.
Yes, Corbyn views any disagreement with him as immoral. All political leaders have difficulty with this, but an inability to admit to a mistake is particularly acute with Corbyn.
No he doesn't. Give me a single example of his saying that someone who disagreed with him was immoral.
He's inflexible. a completely different trait. He is absolutely tolerant of your saying anything you like about him, but the probability that it will make him change his mind is small. That is, however, not a trait unusual in politicians, or indeed in the general public.
One thing that the people's vote crowd will never be overly specific about is what the questions on the ballot paper for their 'people's vote' will be. Its just a vague statement about 'a vote on the deal'.
Its obvious they simply want to overturn the original vote and revert to remain - so why not just say so.
Although its not clear even what remain means now (e.g. would we keep the rebate and if not the £350m gets closer to fact). Imagine the campaign - vote remain 'the other side want us to spend £350m a week on the NHS - lets subsidise French farmers and fund Slovakian motorways and Spanish metro system upgrades instead)!. If we decided to remain now I find it hard to believe the EU wouldn't seek to extract maximum concessions in our hour of humiliation afer having wasted their time for the last 2 and a half years.
But as they start to march done Park Lane - what will be the question or questions on the ballot paper?
Since after two and a half years we're not any clearer about what kind of Brexit it's going to be, it's hardly surprising that they're vague about a hypothetical 2nd ref q. Of course if you want to definitively state the form of Brexit towards which we're hurtling, I'm sure someone can come up with a question.
As foxy is cleAR it's about not surrending to the Brexiteers. Therefore they don't need to wait for the options to be clearer to be clear themselves on what they want to happen.
I support a second ref with deal, no deal and remain as options. There's details I've not worked out, but the 'no surrender ' crowd clearly have no justifying reason to Not just be clear about preferred intention since it doesn't matter what the question is if you're already committed to a remain position.
So say we have this three way vote. Under what electoral system will it be conducted - first past the post, AV (ranking in one column) or supplementary vote (one column for first and one for second preferences) as we use for Mayoral votes. Imagine the debates MPs could have deciding that!
Wouldn't it also be slightly farcical to hold a referendum to overturn the result of another referendum two years ago using an electoral system we rejected by a landslide in a referendum 7 years ago. One might say why should we respect the result - because the last two referendums were seemingly ignored!
Best of three - or do we keep voting until the 'people' vote 'the right way' i.e. remain.
Far too many deadbeats, chums , etc who just pocket the money and quaff the subsidised champers. It has been so sullied by all the placemen/placewomen that it is totally sullied and only fit for being shut down. When you have absolute deadbeats like that loser Mone in it you know it is rotten to the core.
It's a curious mixture - some of the best minds in Britain, some who are there because they had a successful career (which may or may not be a sign of expertise at legislation), some who are borderline senile, some hereditaries, some simply moved there for political convenience (e.g. MPs threatened with Government-supported boundary changes). A friend who has given evidence to Select Committees in both Houses says that the Lords one included some searching, forensic questions which really made her think, and some entirely random anecdotal ramblings.
I think there's a place for a revising chamber. My package would be:
1. All appointments should be intended to represent different strands of British life, so there's an expert on everything. We need famous scientists and former Ministers, certainly, but also farmers, stockbrokers, single parents, recent immigrants, students, etc.
2. All legislation should go first to the Lords for review on objective grounds. Does the legislation make sense, does it have loppholes, will it have unintended consequences? Amendments can be made but Bills cannot be rejected in their entirety, and the Commons can overturn the amendments at the political cost of being seen to overrule expert opinion.
3. New legislation can be proposed from the Lords, including from backbenchers, and this must be given reasonable time for consideration in the Commons.
4. The power of delay should be taken away. If a Bill is bad, they need to make the case why, not merely drag it out. It should be a revising chamber, not a delaying chamber.
But I've never heard Corbyn mention it as a particular concern - I can well see him accepting a reform or abolition proposal, but not in a first term.
Nope. I'm not making it up. Still, thanks for insinuating I'm a liar.
You said 'lob fireworks'. That's such a ridiculous trivialisation of what's happening that I have to wonder why you want to trivialise it. Is it because Israeli's don't matter?
And then there are the psychological effects. from Amnesty: "Scores [of rockets] have struck homes, businesses, schools, other public buildings and vehicles in and around towns and villages in southern Israel. It is purely by chance that in most cases such strikes have not caused death or injury, and the lethal potential of such projectiles should not be underestimated. Above all, the constant threat of impending rocket attacks has caused fear and disrupted the lives of the growing number of Israelis who live within range of such attacks, reaching up to a million.[22]"
As for your last paragraph: if you wanted peace, you would understand that both sides need to move. Israel has much more room to move (and should), but that does not mean that the Palestinians cannot do some things. Two being recognising Israel's right to exist and stopping the rocket attacks. And yes, Israel need to do much more. But stopping the rocket attacks is a trivially easy first step.
It won't make a difference, 3 days, 30 days, Israel will continue the occupation and the theft of land and people will continue to excuse them.
The psychological effects of being under far more attack and suffering far more casualties combined with a brutal occupation is much worse.
Continuing the brutal occupation is not going to stop the rockets, it is the whole reason for them. Demanding the opposition stop fighting back without stopping the occupation is obviously not going to work. The only reason to do so is to excuse the continuation of occupation.
The trivialisation comes from the attempts to compare the attacks from both sides as if they ar equal. Of course the hundreds and hundreds of enhanced fireworks (along with some higher powered stuff) causes some damage over decades that will add up.
Nowhere near as much as the serious firepower that comes back the other way. It is a convenient excuse for people like you when only a few casualties and a small amount of damage is caused to talk about hundreds of rockets being fired and make it sound like Israel is under actual seige in the way Palestine often is.
The Huddersfield grooming trials were revealed on Friday after a judge agreed to partially lift reporting restrictions designed to ensure a fair trial.
Following an application by media groups, including the Guardian, the harrowing details were disclosed in detail for the first time.
I do think that once it's all concluded, an explanation needs to be given as to why reporting restrictions were in place. I know there are circumstances where this has to happen, but I can see why the likes of Robinson are suspicious. By having reporting restrictions, the case only gets revealed after it's happened and therefore the media coverage is much reduced.
There were multiple linked trials.
It certainly condenses the coverage into one day. Look at the Guardian website as an illustration - huge coverage of the death of a Saudi national in Turkey over a week ago as the top story but the systematic and organised rape and abuse of dozens of young British girls as young as 11 whose lives have been ruined for life is almost an afterthought mid way down the page.
Its even less prominent than a story about problems recycling plastic causing many local authorities a few grand a year. Trump's comments about some Republican who pushed a Guardian journalist to the floor - not nice but not mass abuse - gets a bigger font.
And I expect by Monday the media will have moved on.
Me too only seems to apply to middle class liberals from London - poor young girls often from broken homes in the north of England (who have suffered far more brutally) just don't seem to be as important.
One of the saddest (to me) things that was reported was the judge saying that the girls’ lives had been perhaps irretrievably ruined. Given their ages that is heart-breaking. It would be good if Javid could find somewhere in his budget money to provide the girls with the psychological and other help they need to try and put their lives together. Perhaps there is some charity that could also help. It would be so sad - and a poor reflection on us as a society - if they were abandoned a second time.
My brother is on a train to London at the moment, from Coventry. It’s not busy at all, apparently.
Coventry not being a hotbed of Remain protestors is hardly breaking news...
Exactly. This People's March is just going to be people we already know are remainers walking through a city we already know supports remain.
Pointless.
No, there is a right of peaceful protest in this country and people are exercising that right, It is never pointless to put forward an argument and in a democracy people have every right to put forward views and arguments you and I oppose.
What of the anti-Iraq War march or the pro-Countryside march - were they pointless as well?
Why don’t we just have a referendum? The question could be “Should the House of Lords be continued in its current form?” with a yes/no option. I’m sure it would be really easy to work out the details afterwards.
One thing that the people's vote crowd will never be overly specific about is what the questions on the ballot paper for their 'people's vote' will be. Its just a vague statement about 'a vote on the deal'.
Its obvious they simply want to overturn the original vote and revert to remain - so why not just say so.
Although its not clear even what remain means now (e.g. would we keep the rebate and if not the £350m gets closer to fact). Imagine the campaign - vote remain 'the other side want us to spend £350m a week on the NHS - lets subsidise French farmers and fund Slovakian motorways and Spanish metro system upgrades instead)!. If we decided to remain now I find it hard to believe the EU wouldn't seek to extract maximum concessions in our hour of humiliation afer having wasted their time for the last 2 and a half years.
But as they start to march done Park Lane - what will be the question or questions on the ballot paper?
Since after two and a half years we're not any clearer about what kind of Brexit it's going to be, it's hardly surprising that they're vague about a hypothetical 2nd ref q. Of course if you want to definitively state the form of Brexit towards which we're hurtling, I'm sure someone can come up with a question.
As foxy is cleAR it's about not surrending to the Brexiteers. Therefore they don't need to wait for the options to be clearer to be clear themselves on what they want to happen.
I support a second ref with deal, no deal and remain as options. There's details I've not worked out, but the 'no surrender ' crowd clearly have no justifying reason to Not just be clear about preferred intention since it doesn't matter what the question is if you're already committed to a remain position.
So say we have this three way vote. Under what electoral system will it be conducted - first past the post, AV (ranking in one column) or supplementary vote (one column for first and one for second preferences) as we use for Mayoral votes. Imagine the debates MPs could have deciding that!
Wouldn't it also be slightly farcical to hold a referendum to overturn the result of another referendum two years ago using an electoral system we rejected by a landslide in a referendum 7 years ago. One might say why should we respect the result - because the last two referendums were seemingly ignored!
Best of three - or do we keep voting until the 'people' vote 'the right way' i.e. remain.
You're right, it's still full of problems. But it looks like nothing will get through the commons. It moves us on to a new phase at least.
My brother is on a train to London at the moment, from Coventry. It’s not busy at all, apparently.
Coventry not being a hotbed of Remain protestors is hardly breaking news...
Exactly. This People's March is just going to be people we already know are remainers walking through a city we already know supports remain.
Pointless.
No, there is a right of peaceful protest in this country and people are exercising that right, It is never pointless to put forward an argument and in a democracy people have every right to put forward views and arguments you and I oppose.
What of the anti-Iraq War march or the pro-Countryside march - were they pointless as well?
No they weren't , although when we hear all about the march represents the true voice of the country It will be worth considering those other marches did not, in the eyes of plenty.
I know people understandably get excited by such things, but they will really oversell what it means.
And I'm not even opposed any more to the key aim, albeit not for the same reasons.
The Huddersfield grooming trials were revealed on Friday after a judge agreed to partially lift reporting restrictions designed to ensure a fair trial.
Following an application by media groups, including the Guardian, the harrowing details were disclosed in detail for the first time.
I do think that once it's all concluded, an explanation needs to be given as to why reporting restrictions were in place. I know there are circumstances where this has to happen, but I can see why the likes of Robinson are suspicious. By having reporting restrictions, the case only gets revealed after it's happened and therefore the media coverage is much reduced.
There were multiple linked trials.
It certainly condenses the coverage into one day. Look at the Guardian website as an illustration - huge coverage of the death of a Saudi national in Turkey over a week ago as the top story but the systematic and organised rape and abuse of dozens of young British girls as young as 11 whose lives haveWe been ruined for life is almost an afterthought mid way down the page.
Its even less prominent than a story about problems recycling plastic causing many local authorities a few grand a year. Trump's comments about some Republican who pushed a Guardian journalist to the floor - not nice but not mass abuse - gets a bigger font.
And I expect by Monday the media will have moved on.
Me too only seems to apply to middle class liberals from London - poor young girls often from broken homes in the north of England (who have suffered far more brutally) just don't seem to be as important.
I think you may be wrong on this. I suspect the national press will report more extensively on the Huddersfield case over the next week or so. We’ll see.
You need also to remember just how few journalists there are compared with a decade or so back, both nationally and locally - a local paper like the Huddersfield Examiner would have had a score of reporters; now they’ll be lucky if they have even half a dozen, to cover everything Looking at their website, the journalist who covered this also works for the Leeds publication as well (most local media is owned by large conglomerates). Here’s her account of the reporting restrictions: https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/why-couldnt-report-huddersfield-grooming-15294820
As far as the Khashoggi thing is concerned the suborning of brutal murder by the leader of a country using the apparatus of a state is a big story.
Me too only seems to apply to middle class liberals from London - poor young girls often from broken homes in the north of England (who have suffered far more brutally) just don't seem to be as important.
Social class is the defining aspect of this matter. The race and religion angle is just fodder for thick as fuck Tommybots. If those fuckers had been diddling private school girls from Berkshire then they'd have been locked up immediately. The authorities didn't turn a blind eye because of the race or religion of the perpetrators they ignored because of the social class of the victims.
I suppose that might be true were responsibility at the national level. But it isn't. Ultimately, the likes of Kirklees Council allowed it to happen - for whatever reason - on their patch. Personally I think it was probably seen as being "too difficult" to do anything about.
One thing that the people's vote crowd will never be overly specific about is what the questions on the ballot paper for their 'people's vote' will be. Its just a vague statement about 'a vote on the deal'.
Its obvious they simply want to overturn the original vote and revert to remain - so why not just say so.
Although its not clear even what remain means now (e.g. would we keep the rebate and if not the £350m gets closer to fact). Imagine the campaign - vote remain 'the other side want us to spend £350m a week on the NHS - lets subsidise French farmers and fund Slovakian motorways and Spanish metro system upgrades instead)!. If we decided to remain now I find it hard to believe the EU wouldn't seek to extract maximum concessions in our hour of humiliation afer having wasted their time for the last 2 and a half years.
But as they start to march done Park Lane - what will be the question or questions on the ballot paper?
Since after two and a half years we're not any clearer about what kind of Brexit it's going to be, it's hardly surprising that they're vague about a hypothetical 2nd ref q. Of course if you want to definitively state the form of Brexit towards which we're hurtling, I'm sure someone can come up with a question.
As foxy is cleAR it's about not surrending to the Brexiteers. Therefore they don't need to wait for the options to be clearer to be clear themselves on what they want to happen.
I support a second ref with deal, no deal and remain as options. There's details I've not worked out, but the 'no surrender ' crowd clearly have no justifying reason to Not just be clear about preferred intention since it doesn't matter what the question is if you're already committed to a remain position.
It won't make a difference, 3 days, 30 days, Israel will continue the occupation and the theft of land and people will continue to excuse them.
The psychological effects of being under far more attack and suffering far more casualties combined with a brutal occupation is much worse.
Continuing the brutal occupation is not going to stop the rockets, it is the whole reason for them. Demanding the opposition stop fighting back without stopping the occupation is obviously not going to work. The only reason to do so is to excuse the continuation of occupation.
The trivialisation comes from the attempts to compare the attacks from both sides as if they ar equal. Of course the hundreds and hundreds of enhanced fireworks (along with some higher powered stuff) causes some damage over decades that will add up.
Nowhere near as much as the serious firepower that comes back the other way. It is a convenient excuse for people like you when only a few casualties and a small amount of damage is caused to talk about hundreds of rockets being fired and make it sound like Israel is under actual seige in the way Palestine often is.
Both Israeli (authorities) and Palestinian (authorities) attacks are wrong, and need condemning. You fail to do so, and trivialise one sides: your 'firework' comments are, frankly, sick.
And I'm not saying the attacks are equal: they're evidently not.
I'm saying they're both wrong. That's a step you seem unable to make, and I do wonder why that might be.
In excusing the rocket attacks, you are showing you are uninterested in the welfare of Israelis, or in peace itself. Oddly, you are also uninterested in the welfare of Palestinians, as the rocket attacks have killed Palestinians as well when they misfire.
One thing that the people's vote crowd will never be overly specific about is what the questions on the ballot paper for their 'people's vote' will be. Its just a vague statement about 'a vote on the deal'.
Its obvious they simply want to overturn the original vote and revert to remain - so why not just say so.
Although its not clear even what remain means now (e.g. would we keep the rebate and if not the £350m gets closer to fact). Imagine the campaign - vote remain 'the other side want us to spend £350m a week on the NHS - lets subsidise French farmers and fund Slovakian motorways and Spanish metro system upgrades instead)!. If we decided to remain now I find it hard to believe the EU wouldn't seek to extract maximum concessions in our hour of humiliation afer having wasted their time for the last 2 and a half years.
But as they start to march done Park Lane - what will be the question or questions on the ballot paper?
Since after two and a half years we're not any clearer about what kind of Brexit it's going to be, it's hardly surprising that they're vague about a hypothetical 2nd ref q. Of course if you want to definitively state the form of Brexit towards which we're hurtling, I'm sure someone can come up with a question.
As foxy is cleAR it's about not surrending to the Brexiteers. Therefore they don't need to wait for the options to be clearer to be clear themselves on what they want to happen.
I support a second ref with deal, no deal and remain as options. There's details I've not worked out, but the 'no surrender ' crowd clearly have no justifying reason to Not just be clear about preferred intention since it doesn't matter what the question is if you're already committed to a remain position.
Maybe, but the adversarial mood applies both ways. We could argue about who bears most responsibilty for this, but that discussion has been taken round the block far too many rimes for its own good.
It won't make a difference, 3 days, 30 days, Israel will continue the occupation and the theft of land and people will continue to excuse them.
The psychological effects of being under far more attack and suffering far more casualties combined with a brutal occupation is much worse.
Continuing the brutal occupation is not going to stop the rockets, it is the whole reason for them. Demanding the opposition stop fighting back without stopping the occupation is obviously not going to work. The only reason to do so is to excuse the continuation of occupation.
The trivialisation comes from the attempts to compare the attacks from both sides as if they ar equal. Of course the hundreds and hundreds of enhanced fireworks (along with some higher powered stuff) causes some damage over decades that will add up.
Nowhere near as much as the serious firepower that comes back the other way. It is a convenient excuse for people like you when only a few casualties and a small amount of damage is caused to talk about hundreds of rockets being fired and make it sound like Israel is under actual seige in the way Palestine often is.
Both Israeli (authorities) and Palestinian (authorities) attacks are wrong, and need condemning. You fail to do so, and trivialise one sides: your 'firework' comments are, frankly, sick.
And I'm not saying the attacks are equal: they're evidently not.
I'm saying they're both wrong. That's a step you seem unable to make, and I do wonder why that might be.
In excusing the rocket attacks, you are showing you are uninterested in the welfare of Israelis, or in peace itself. Oddly, you are also uninterested in the welfare of Palestinians, as the rocket attacks have killed Palestinians as well when they misfire.
I oppose the occupation rather than dither around with excuses for it, the fact you find that sick says everything.
My brother is on a train to London at the moment, from Coventry. It’s not busy at all, apparently.
Coventry not being a hotbed of Remain protestors is hardly breaking news...
Exactly. This People's March is just going to be people we already know are remainers walking through a city we already know supports remain.
Pointless.
No, there is a right of peaceful protest in this country and people are exercising that right, It is never pointless to put forward an argument and in a democracy people have every right to put forward views and arguments you and I oppose.
What of the anti-Iraq War march or the pro-Countryside march - were they pointless as well?
Yes. They both also failed to achieve their aims, the war and the ban both went ahead despite those record marches.
How much bigger than the Iraq War march are you expecting today's to be? Since this is the biggest crisis since Suez apparently one assumes the turnout will massively exceed the Iraq War march turnout (let alone fox-hunting one!) but by how much?
My brother is on a train to London at the moment, from Coventry. It’s not busy at all, apparently.
Coventry not being a hotbed of Remain protestors is hardly breaking news...
Exactly. This People's March is just going to be people we already know are remainers walking through a city we already know supports remain.
Pointless.
No, there is a right of peaceful protest in this country and people are exercising that right, It is never pointless to put forward an argument and in a democracy people have every right to put forward views and arguments you and I oppose.
What of the anti-Iraq War march or the pro-Countryside march - were they pointless as well?
One big difference. We didn't hold a referendum on entering the Iraq war or abolishing fox hunting - so the public were never really heard directly on either issue and the protests therefore had more validity. They are perfectly entitled to have their nice little march in their safe space - but it might have more effect if they held a few more such events in towns like Stoke or Sunderland or Boston where they would be lucky to attract tens rather than tens of thousands.
As has been said its going to be the usual white middle class remainers (the last ones have been surprisingly undiverse considering its an event in the capital) mostly from London talking a walk through the leafy parts of central London to inform over 17 million people - 90 per cent of whom weren't from London - that they got it wrong and must vote again. Its a collective Violet Elizabeth Bott moment from the chattering classes - i will squeam and squeam and squeam until I get my people's vote.
We know for once Londoners - well 60% of them as more people there voted leave than voted for Sadiq Khan after second preferences at Mayor - didn't get what most of them wanted. Perhaps they just aren't used to the regular experience of much of the rest of the country.
No they weren't , although when we hear all about the march represents the true voice of the country It will be worth considering those other marches did not, in the eyes of plenty.
I know people understandably get excited by such things, but they will really oversell what it means.
And I'm not even opposed any more to the key aim, albeit not for the same reasons.
I make no claim that today's march represents "the true voice" of the country any more than when those marching in opposition to the Government on Iraq made that claim.
They do represent A voice and arguably a growing voice. There are other voices including the voice that says the result of the 2016 Referendum must be respected and that voice is also heard and nothing is stopping that group having a nice walk round central London or anywhere else.
' Drug gangs controlled by Eastern European criminals are fuelling the rising tide of violent crime in London, a Labour MP has claimed.
Tottenham MP David Lammy said drugs were as "prolific as ordering a pizza", comparing the situation to McMafia, a BBC drama about Russian gangsters.
...
Asked who he thought was behind it, he said: "I do know from the police that there are big gangs - Eastern European, Albanian - they traffic people, they traffic drugs and they traffic guns." '
My brother is on a train to London at the moment, from Coventry. It’s not busy at all, apparently.
Coventry not being a hotbed of Remain protestors is hardly breaking news...
Exactly. This People's March is just going to be people we already know are remainers walking through a city we already know supports remain.
Pointless.
No, there is a right of peaceful protest in this country and people are exercising that right, It is never pointless to put forward an argument and in a democracy people have every right to put forward views and arguments you and I oppose.
What of the anti-Iraq War march or the pro-Countryside march - were they pointless as well?
No they weren't , although when we hear all about the march represents the true voice of the country It will be worth considering those other marches did not, in the eyes of plenty.
I know people understandably get excited by such things, but they will really oversell what it means.
And I'm not even opposed any more to the key aim, albeit not for the same reasons.
I make no claim that today's march represents "the true voice" of the country any more than when those marching in opposition to the Government on Iraq made that claim.
They do represent A voice and arguably a growing voice. There are other voices including the voice that says the result of the 2016 Referendum must be respected and that voice is also heard and nothing is stopping that group having a nice walk round central London or anywhere else.
Agreed. It would be interesting to see which side got the bigger crowd.
Party forming up at my brothers house, flags prepared!
No Surrender to the Brexiteers!
Have fun, although you prove the point that there is no reason they cannot just admit they only want remain, the vast majority anyway, since it isn't about the deal or not, it's about not surrending to brexit, so uncertainty over the potential question is irrelevant. But then sadly too many have been very unconcerned with honesty - learning from the very worst parts of the leave campaign.
The very worst of the leave campaign included Russian intervention, threats to invade other countries, and the assassination of an MP.
Wentworth is like the RIchmond upon Thames of Australia covering a lot of the wealthiest parts of Sydney and was one of the safest Liberal party seats in the country - they have held it since 1901 which was the first federal election. Malcolm Turnbull the former PM who got dumped as leader was their local MP and understandably the locals aren't too happy with the Liberal party.
Its now been called for the independent candidate Kerryn Phelps who has won win an estimated 27 per cent swing. Memories of the Richmond by election here post Brexit?
So quite a dramatic protest and probably not a good sign for the Coalition for next year's election. The Coalition is now a minority government relying on independents - if it can persuade them - to get its legislation though.
Malcolm Turnbull was an absolute turd. He got his seat in Parliament by branch stacking and deselecting the sitting MP. He became leader of the opposition by backstabbing the leader. He became Prime Minister by backstabbing the existing PM. And when it happens to him, he has a huge sulk and resigns his seat to deprive his own Party of its majority. But despite his history of bloodshed all the left wing Australian press could do was say how terrible it was that he got knifed. Ignoring the fact that he was miles behind in the polls and was leading the Government to a huge election defeat.
The Australian Liberal Party is the example of what happens when a centre right party gets taken over by the liberal elite. The right wing then gravitates to social conservatism which also has no traction. They are just what the Tory Party were becoming under Heath before Thatcher saved them and what they were becoming before Brexit rescued them. But there is no sign of such a saviour anywhere in the Liberal Party - such a person would never be accepted as a candidate.
The Liberals will get destroyed at the election. I doubt they really care. They are all rich and well connected. They will just retreat to their coffee shops and sip Latte and go on the news to complain and just wait their turn again.
Why don’t we just have a referendum? The question could be “Should the House of Lords be continued in its current form?” with a yes/no option. I’m sure it would be really easy to work out the details afterwards.
The campaign ads might be fun.
Each member of the House of Lords costs us £300 a day - lets spend that money on employing an extra agency nurse in the NHS instead!
It won't make a difference, 3 days, 30 days, Israel will continue the occupation and the theft of land and people will continue to excuse them.
The psychological effects of being under far more attack and suffering far more casualties combined with a brutal occupation is much worse.
Continuing the brutal occupation is not going to stop the rockets, it is the whole reason for them. Demanding the opposition stop fighting back without stopping the occupation is obviously not going to work. The only reason to do so is to excuse the continuation of occupation.
The trivialisation comes from the attempts to compare the attacks from both sides as if they ar equal. Of course the hundreds and hundreds of enhanced fireworks (along with some higher powered stuff) causes some damage over decades that will add up.
Nowhere near as much as the serious firepower that comes back the other way. It is a convenient excuse for people like you when only a few casualties and a small amount of damage is caused to talk about hundreds of rockets being fired and make it sound like Israel is under actual seige in the way Palestine often is.
Both Israeli (authorities) and Palestinian (authorities) attacks are wrong, and need condemning. You fail to do so, and trivialise one sides: your 'firework' comments are, frankly, sick.
And I'm not saying the attacks are equal: they're evidently not.
I'm saying they're both wrong. That's a step you seem unable to make, and I do wonder why that might be.
In excusing the rocket attacks, you are showing you are uninterested in the welfare of Israelis, or in peace itself. Oddly, you are also uninterested in the welfare of Palestinians, as the rocket attacks have killed Palestinians as well when they misfire.
I oppose the occupation rather than dither around with excuses for it, the fact you find that sick says everything.
I said your firework comments were sick, and I stand by that. I did not say what you just claimed in your comment.
Opposing the occupation (peacefully) is all well and good. But we need to move forward. So again I ask (and would appreciate a sane answer this time): how would you move things forward?
Me too only seems to apply to middle class liberals from London - poor young girls often from broken homes in the north of England (who have suffered far more brutally) just don't seem to be as important.
Social class is the defining aspect of this matter. The race and religion angle is just fodder for thick as fuck Tommybots. If those fuckers had been diddling private school girls from Berkshire then they'd have been locked up immediately. The authorities didn't turn a blind eye because of the race or religion of the perpetrators they ignored because of the social class of the victims.
I suppose that might be true were responsibility at the national level. But it isn't. Ultimately, the likes of Kirklees Council allowed it to happen - for whatever reason - on their patch. Personally I think it was probably seen as being "too difficult" to do anything about.
I suspect funding cuts have quite a lot to do with the lack of timely action. Those affecting police and local government spending have been massive compared to the big spending departments.
It won't make a difference, 3 days, 30 days, Israel will continue the occupation and the theft of land and people will continue to excuse them.
The psychological effects of being under far more attack and suffering far more casualties combined with a brutal occupation is much worse.
Continuing the brutal occupation is not going to stop the rockets, it is the whole reason for them. Demanding the opposition stop fighting back without stopping the occupation is obviously not going to work. The only reason to do so is to excuse the continuation of occupation.
The trivialisation comes from the attempts to compare the attacks from both sides as if they ar equal. Of course the hundreds and hundreds of enhanced fireworks (along with some higher powered stuff) causes some damage over decades that will add up.
Nowhere near as much as the serious firepower that comes back the other way. It is a convenient excuse for people like you when only a few casualties and a small amount of damage is caused to talk about hundreds of rockets being fired and make it sound like Israel is under actual seige in the way Palestine often is.
Both Israeli (authorities) and Palestinian (authorities) attacks are wrong, and need condemning. You fail to do so, and trivialise one sides: your 'firework' comments are, frankly, sick.
And I'm not saying the attacks are equal: they're evidently not.
I'm saying they're both wrong. That's a step you seem unable to make, and I do wonder why that might be.
In excusing the rocket attacks, you are showing you are uninterested in the welfare of Israelis, or in peace itself. Oddly, you are also uninterested in the welfare of Palestinians, as the rocket attacks have killed Palestinians as well when they misfire.
I oppose the occupation rather than dither around with excuses for it, the fact you find that sick says everything.
I said your firework comments were sick, and I stand by that. I did not say what you just claimed in your comment.
Opposing the occupation (peacefully) is all well and good. But we need to move forward. So again I ask (and would appreciate a sane answer this time): how would you move things forward?
The PR offensive is part of supporting the occupation. My pointing out of that is part of the opposition to it that you found sick.
I'm sure we have been through this before I see little point but very briefly Israel needs to pull back to its borders and there needs to be an international effort to rebuild Palestine. You aren't going to anything out of the Palestinians whilst they continue to be held in poverty. This won't happen whilst Israel continues to occupy Palestine with international approval.
Me too only seems to apply to middle class liberals from London - poor young girls often from broken homes in the north of England (who have suffered far more brutally) just don't seem to be as important.
Social class is the defining aspect of this matter. The race and religion angle is just fodder for thick as fuck Tommybots. If those fuckers had been diddling private school girls from Berkshire then they'd have been locked up immediately. The authorities didn't turn a blind eye because of the race or religion of the perpetrators they ignored because of the social class of the victims.
I suppose that might be true were responsibility at the national level. But it isn't. Ultimately, the likes of Kirklees Council allowed it to happen - for whatever reason - on their patch. Personally I think it was probably seen as being "too difficult" to do anything about.
Children's services in Kirklees has been in trouble for some years. Following a critical report it was recently taken over by Leeds with a shared head.
Me too only seems to apply to middle class liberals from London - poor young girls often from broken homes in the north of England (who have suffered far more brutally) just don't seem to be as important.
Social class is the defining aspect of this matter. The race and religion angle is just fodder for thick as fuck Tommybots. If those fuckers had been diddling private school girls from Berkshire then they'd have been locked up immediately. The authorities didn't turn a blind eye because of the race or religion of the perpetrators they ignored because of the social class of the victims.
I suppose that might be true were responsibility at the national level. But it isn't. Ultimately, the likes of Kirklees Council allowed it to happen - for whatever reason - on their patch. Personally I think it was probably seen as being "too difficult" to do anything about.
Children's services in Kirklees has been in trouble for some years. Following a critical report it was recently taken over by Leeds with a shared head.
They were judged good by OFSTED as recently as 2012, if you read the report.
Me too only seems to apply to middle class liberals from London - poor young girls often from broken homes in the north of England (who have suffered far more brutally) just don't seem to be as important.
Social class is the defining aspect of this matter. The race and religion angle is just fodder for thick as fuck Tommybots. If those fuckers had been diddling private school girls from Berkshire then they'd have been locked up immediately. The authorities didn't turn a blind eye because of the race or religion of the perpetrators they ignored because of the social class of the victims.
I suppose that might be true were responsibility at the national level. But it isn't. Ultimately, the likes of Kirklees Council allowed it to happen - for whatever reason - on their patch. Personally I think it was probably seen as being "too difficult" to do anything about.
Barry Sheerman, local MP, was on the radio last night talking about this. He made the point that the authorities were reluctant to act because they felt it would affect the good reputation of the town.
Me too only seems to apply to middle class liberals from London - poor young girls often from broken homes in the north of England (who have suffered far more brutally) just don't seem to be as important.
Social class is the defining aspect of this matter. The race and religion angle is just fodder for thick as fuck Tommybots. If those fuckers had been diddling private school girls from Berkshire then they'd have been locked up immediately. The authorities didn't turn a blind eye because of the race or religion of the perpetrators they ignored because of the social class of the victims.
I suppose that might be true were responsibility at the national level. But it isn't. Ultimately, the likes of Kirklees Council allowed it to happen - for whatever reason - on their patch. Personally I think it was probably seen as being "too difficult" to do anything about.
I suspect funding cuts have quite a lot to do with the lack of timely action. Those affecting police and local government spending have been massive compared to the big spending departments.
As I understand it these crimes were being perpetrated as long ago as 2004 (incidentally, at the same time the London murder rate was at its highest I think).
I fail to see what this march today will achieve, aside from making a lot of people feel good and angering others.
It seems rather pointless. But this is a free country, and they're not doing anything illegal, so I hope they all have a lovely time. If any PBers are there, have fun!
I'll be there with my children and grandchildren and neighbours. There'll be about 20 of us.
I took part in the Iraq march of a million plus. Blair ignored us but we never forgot that or forgave him. It's part of the reason he is a tragic pariah.
Marching is an emotional commitment. It is much more that signing a petition or commenting on a blog. It may or may not influence parliament in the short term. I don't know. The Iraq experience is not a good omen. But it will affect the long term. Many Tories will be marching today and they will not forget or forgive if they are ignored and the consequences are dire.
The PR offensive is part of supporting the occupation. My pointing out of that is part of the opposition to it that you found sick.
I'm sure we have been through this before I see little point but very briefly Israel needs to pull back to its borders and there needs to be an international effort to rebuild Palestine. You aren't going to anything out of the Palestinians whilst they continue to be held in poverty. This won't happen whilst Israel continues to occupy Palestine with international approval.
'PR offensive' ?
Really?
Okay, you're being *really* silly. Are you saying the rockets don't exist? That they're not fired? That they're in some ways part of a PR offensive (presumably orchestrated by Israel)? That they are in fact, as you sickly claimed, 'fireworks' ?
Your last paragraph is fine. I'm intrigued about how you think we'll realistically get to that position, and how the Palestinians who fire rockets are helping achieve that position.
And you might want to consider that the Palestinian rocket attacks have been criticised and condemned internationally, by the UN, EU, Amnesty and others. It's fine criticising Israeli actions for not having international approval; but you should also criticise the Palestinians when they don't, either.
Ever noticed how hard right Bucanneering Brexiteers who threaten and insinuate violence if there is a second referendum dismiss out of hand the danger of a return to the Troubles if there is a hard border once more in Ireland?
Me too only seems to apply to middle class liberals from London - poor young girls often from broken homes in the north of England (who have suffered far more brutally) just don't seem to be as important.
Social class is the defining aspect of this matter. The race and religion angle is just fodder for thick as fuck Tommybots. If those fuckers had been diddling private school girls from Berkshire then they'd have been locked up immediately. The authorities didn't turn a blind eye because of the race or religion of the perpetrators they ignored because of the social class of the victims.
I suppose that might be true were responsibility at the national level. But it isn't. Ultimately, the likes of Kirklees Council allowed it to happen - for whatever reason - on their patch. Personally I think it was probably seen as being "too difficult" to do anything about.
I suspect funding cuts have quite a lot to do with the lack of timely action. Those affecting police and local government spending have been massive compared to the big spending departments.
As I understand it these crimes were being perpetrated as long ago as 2004 (incidentally, at the same time the London murder rate was at its highest I think).
Exactly - I understand that the last incident with which these men in Huddersfield were charged took place in 2011. The Coalition didn't really start the cuts until mid way through 2011 as they didn't amend Labour's 2010-11 funding allocations - so austerity was not the cause. So its taken 7 years, hard work and some very brave people coming forward including the victims to get to this point.
There was just a general policy of inaction from the top - look at how the whistleblowers in Rotherham were treated.
No denying the cuts are having a wide impact now - particularly in children's services where many councils are facing severe problems meeting demand. But it wasn't austerity that caused these girls to be abused and raped or see the problem swept under the carpet for years.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
Me too only seems to apply to middle class liberals from London - poor young girls often from broken homes in the north of England (who have suffered far more brutally) just don't seem to be as important.
Social class is the defining aspect of this matter. The race and religion angle is just fodder for thick as fuck Tommybots. If those fuckers had been diddling private school girls from Berkshire then they'd have been locked up immediately. The authorities didn't turn a blind eye because of the race or religion of the perpetrators they ignored because of the social class of the victims.
I suppose that might be true were responsibility at the national level. But it isn't. Ultimately, the likes of Kirklees Council allowed it to happen - for whatever reason - on their patch. Personally I think it was probably seen as being "too difficult" to do anything about.
I suspect funding cuts have quite a lot to do with the lack of timely action. Those affecting police and local government spending have been massive compared to the big spending departments.
As I understand it these crimes were being perpetrated as long ago as 2004 (incidentally, at the same time the London murder rate was at its highest I think).
' Drug gangs controlled by Eastern European criminals are fuelling the rising tide of violent crime in London, a Labour MP has claimed.
Tottenham MP David Lammy said drugs were as "prolific as ordering a pizza", comparing the situation to McMafia, a BBC drama about Russian gangsters.
...
Asked who he thought was behind it, he said: "I do know from the police that there are big gangs - Eastern European, Albanian - they traffic people, they traffic drugs and they traffic guns." '
Is European ok as a descriptive term - but not Asian. Surprising Lammy doesn't highlight this as a benefit of EU membership and freedom of movement which has directly contributed to the increasing incidence of those gangs and the ease by which they can exploit people and particularly women across borders.
Even Javid steps round the situation - they weren't men of Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, Israeli, Thai, Burmese or Mongolian origin. More than half the world's population is from Asia and thus 'Asian' - its such a lazy term we use in this country.
West Yorkshire reported an 11% crime rise last year, yet it has decided not to chase up half of them. Crimes “including child abuse and terrorism” must be pursued by civilian staff, “prompting fears that public safety is at risk”.
This is rubbish. The figures are put together by local police forces to a variety of ends. They reflect police activity, insurance requirements, Home Office priorities and media pressure. The only remotely reliable crime figures come from the official Crime Survey for England and Wales (formerly known as the British Crime Survey), and they show Britain’s crime rate, however defined, as falling for over a decade. This year there was some evidence of that fall slackening, but even for much-publicised violence, the 2018 survey recorded “no change in overall violent offences”.
Me too only seems to apply to middle class liberals from London - poor young girls often from broken homes in the north of England (who have suffered far more brutally) just don't seem to be as important.
Social class is the defining aspect of this matter. The race and religion angle is just fodder for thick as fuck Tommybots. If those fuckers had been diddling private school girls from Berkshire then they'd have been locked up immediately. The authorities didn't turn a blind eye because of the race or religion of the perpetrators they ignored because of the social class of the victims.
I suppose that might be true were responsibility at the national level. But it isn't. Ultimately, the likes of Kirklees Council allowed it to happen - for whatever reason - on their patch. Personally I think it was probably seen as being "too difficult" to do anything about.
I suspect funding cuts have quite a lot to do with the lack of timely action. Those affecting police and local government spending have been massive compared to the big spending departments.
As I understand it these crimes were being perpetrated as long ago as 2004 (incidentally, at the same time the London murder rate was at its highest I think).
Exactly - I understand that the last incident with which these men in Huddersfield were charged took place in 2011. The Coalition didn't really start the cuts until mid way through 2011 as they didn't amend Labour's 2010-11 funding allocations - so austerity was not the cause. So its taken 7 years, hard work and some very brave people coming forward including the victims to get to this point.
There was just a general policy of inaction from the top - look at how the whistleblowers in Rotherham were treated.
No denying the cuts are having a wide impact now - particularly in children's services where many councils are facing severe problems meeting demand. But it wasn't austerity that caused these girls to be abused and raped or see the problem swept under the carpet for years.
I’m not arguing that it was (as I acknowledge in the previous post), but it must be a matter of great concern going ahead that this doesn’t happen again for resource reasons - and the cuts in Local Authority education services and policing have been swingeing.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I’ll be amazed if there are no Socialist Workers placards on display.
' Drug gangs controlled by Eastern European criminals are fuelling the rising tide of violent crime in London, a Labour MP has claimed.
Tottenham MP David Lammy said drugs were as "prolific as ordering a pizza", comparing the situation to McMafia, a BBC drama about Russian gangsters.
...
Asked who he thought was behind it, he said: "I do know from the police that there are big gangs - Eastern European, Albanian - they traffic people, they traffic drugs and they traffic guns." '
Is European ok as a descriptive term - but not Asian. Surprising Lammy doesn't highlight this as a benefit of EU membership and freedom of movement which has directly contributed to the increasing incidence of those gangs and the ease by which they can exploit people and particularly women across borders.
Even Javid steps round the situation - they weren't men of Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, Israeli, Thai, Burmese or Mongolian origin. More than half the world's population is from Asia and thus 'Asian' - its such a lazy term we use in this country.
The PR offensive is part of supporting the occupation. My pointing out of that is part of the opposition to it that you found sick.
I'm sure we have been through this before I see little point but very briefly Israel needs to pull back to its borders and there needs to be an international effort to rebuild Palestine. You aren't going to anything out of the Palestinians whilst they continue to be held in poverty. This won't happen whilst Israel continues to occupy Palestine with international approval.
'PR offensive' ?
Really?
Okay, you're being *really* silly. Are you saying the rockets don't exist? That they're not fired? That they're in some ways part of a PR offensive (presumably orchestrated by Israel)? That they are in fact, as you sickly claimed, 'fireworks' ?
Your last paragraph is fine. I'm intrigued about how you think we'll realistically get to that position, and how the Palestinians who fire rockets are helping achieve that position.
And you might want to consider that the Palestinian rocket attacks have been criticised and condemned internationally, by the UN, EU, Amnesty and others. It's fine criticising Israeli actions for not having international approval; but you should also criticise the Palestinians when they don't, either.
I've already covered why it is PR but it feels like you just argue rather than pay attention so I don't see the point in explaining once again.
We probably can't get to that position, the international community can at east not cheer them on though, it could at least help or at least make the alternative method in their interests. Rather than the current approach where keeping the conflict going benefits them. Palestinians shooting rockets doesn't make a difference, Israel decided it was worth the gains long ago. Useful as a line for some people to defend Israel I guess.
I also might want to consider the Palestinians don't approve of gay marriage and that is something I approve of, in terms of ending the conflict though it is pretty meaningless. The easiest way to stop the Palestinian rocket attacks is to stop the brutal occupation as that is the cause of them, why don't you want them stopped?
By using them as an excuse to continue what started them you are continuing the cycle which causes them to be fired. Last post on the subject.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I’ll be amazed if there are no Socialist Workers placards on display.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I’ll be amazed if there are no Socialist Workers placards on display.
Yes - their strategy is find a popular march and then march in front of it.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I’ll be amazed if there are no Socialist Workers placards on display.
Yes - their strategy is find a popular march and then march in front of it.
They probably missed the Countryside Alliance March though...
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I’ll be amazed if there are no Socialist Workers placards on display.
Yes - their strategy is find a popular march and then march in front of it.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I realise the Corbynistas are the source of all evil and love everything bad but I think most things point to more Corbyn supporting types being in favour of the second vote, mostly come round to the idea myself.
It wouldn't have made it as a resolution at the Labour conference if it was just some centrist thing rather than a movement the left is part of.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I’ll be amazed if there are no Socialist Workers placards on display.
Yes - their strategy is find a popular march and then march in front of it.
I thought swp policy was pro brexit
Makes no difference. SWP just want to be seen leading a crowd. It makes them seem more important than they really are.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I’ll be amazed if there are no Socialist Workers placards on display.
Yes - their strategy is find a popular march and then march in front of it.
They weren’t at the last one. It depends on who organises and who speaks. No Owen Jones = no SWP.
' Drug gangs controlled by Eastern European criminals are fuelling the rising tide of violent crime in London, a Labour MP has claimed.
Tottenham MP David Lammy said drugs were as "prolific as ordering a pizza", comparing the situation to McMafia, a BBC drama about Russian gangsters.
...
Asked who he thought was behind it, he said: "I do know from the police that there are big gangs - Eastern European, Albanian - they traffic people, they traffic drugs and they traffic guns." '
Is European ok as a descriptive term - but not Asian. Surprising Lammy doesn't highlight this as a benefit of EU membership and freedom of movement which has directly contributed to the increasing incidence of those gangs and the ease by which they can exploit people and particularly women across borders.
Even Javid steps round the situation - they weren't men of Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, Israeli, Thai, Burmese or Mongolian origin. More than half the world's population is from Asia and thus 'Asian' - its such a lazy term we use in this country.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I agree with the reason to do it. FWIW I'm a Corbynista and I'm in favour of the march, not seen any hostility from like-minded figures of any significance (there's always a few random trolls ranting about anything). I'm dubious about Vince's attempt to cash in on it, but I guess I'd do the same if I were him.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I’ll be amazed if there are no Socialist Workers placards on display.
Yes - their strategy is find a popular march and then march in front of it.
I thought swp policy was pro brexit
Makes no difference. SWP just want to be seen leading a crowd. It makes them seem more important than they really are.
EDIT: I'll look out for them and report back.
If you were going to compliment them for one thing it would be their ability to get to marches and hand out banners and stuff...
Their version of getting the trains running on time...
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I realise the Corbynistas are the source of all evil and love everything bad but I think most things point to more Corbyn supporting types being in favour of the second vote, mostly come round to the idea myself.
It wouldn't have made it as a resolution at the Labour conference if it was just some centrist thing rather than a movement the left is part of.
The contempt for the Second Vote movement from all Corbynista commentators and those around the leadership is very real. They hate it because they have no control of it. And it worries them greatly that even Labour members are part of the problem.
Next German state elections next Sunday (28th) in Hessen, with an interesting 3-horse race. Greens challenging for 2nd or even 1st. In the national polls they are nudging 20% too, and look a strong bet to be in Government after the next election.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I realise the Corbynistas are the source of all evil and love everything bad but I think most things point to more Corbyn supporting types being in favour of the second vote, mostly come round to the idea myself.
It wouldn't have made it as a resolution at the Labour conference if it was just some centrist thing rather than a movement the left is part of.
The contempt for the Second Vote movement from all Corbynista commentators and those around the leadership is very real. They hate it because they have no control of it. And it worries them greatly that even Labour members are part of the problem.
There was plenty of that for the FBPE types who would use it to attack Labour but there's plenty of support among the Corbyn types for a 2nd ref as opposed to using it to attack Corbyn.
For example I would argue with you who rather than stop Brexit would lose the opportunity to stop the left instead but Zoe Williams as one example (who has been pretty supportive of EU all along) who wants to stop Brexit rather than stop the left are ideas many share. I imagine many of the people's vote crowd today will care far more about stopping Brexit than stopping the left.
I've already covered why it is PR but it feels like you just argue rather than pay attention so I don't see the point in explaining once again.
We probably can't get to that position, the international community can at east not cheer them on though, it could at least help or at least make the alternative method in their interests. Rather than the current approach where keeping the conflict going benefits them. Palestinians shooting rockets doesn't make a difference, Israel decided it was worth the gains long ago. Useful as a line for some people to defend Israel I guess.
I also might want to consider the Palestinians don't approve of gay marriage and that is something I approve of, in terms of ending the conflict though it is pretty meaningless. The easiest way to stop the Palestinian rocket attacks is to stop the brutal occupation as that is the cause of them, why don't you want them stopped?
By using them as an excuse to continue what started them you are continuing the cycle which causes them to be fired. Last post on the subject.
You are wrong about it being 'PR'. It is factual.
But if that's the route you want to head down, then your position seems filled with anti-Zionist PR. In fact, calling the rockets 'fireworks' seems archetypal PR: it downplays their effects and excuses the perpetrators.
Have you considered that the Palestinian extremists firing the rockets might not be satisfied with the end of the occupation? That they might want to wipe Israel off the map? That is why Palestinians should at least acknowledge Israel's right to exist: another position you deny. It'd be a good start to building up much-needed trust. And yes, Israel has many more moves to make.
What matters are not states, not leaders or politicians. What matters are people. Both the Israeli and Palestinian people are being let down by their politicians and leaders. But that goes as much for the Palestinian leaders as it does the Israeli ones.
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
There are not many times where I'd cry offence at any political or comedic messages/jokes but I find that truly offensive. It's not funny and trivialises a very serious issue.
There are not many times where I'd cry offence at any political or comedic messages/jokes but I find that truly offensive. It's not funny and trivialises a very serious issue.
There are not many times where I'd cry offence at any political or comedic messages/jokes but I find that truly offensive. It's not funny and trivialises a very serious issue.
The news story today will all be about numbers.. The remainers will no doubt say 2 million attended and the brexireers will say around 150000... It will then become another slanting match.. The echo chamber is in full swing today..
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
I shall be walking round my garden's green spaces to show support for the other 60-odd million Brits, who are looking at those "Peoples Vote" marching because Brexit was only voted for by badgers - and thinking "what wankers...."
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I realise the Corbynistas are the source of all evil and love everything bad but I think most things point to more Corbyn supporting types being in favour of the second vote, mostly come round to the idea myself.
It wouldn't have made it as a resolution at the Labour conference if it was just some centrist thing rather than a movement the left is part of.
The contempt for the Second Vote movement from all Corbynista commentators and those around the leadership is very real. They hate it because they have no control of it. And it worries them greatly that even Labour members are part of the problem.
There was plenty of that for the FBPE types who would use it to attack Labour but there's plenty of support among the Corbyn types for a 2nd ref as opposed to using it to attack Corbyn.
For example I would argue with you who rather than stop Brexit would lose the opportunity to stop the left instead but Zoe Williams as one example (who has been pretty supportive of EU all along) who wants to stop Brexit rather than stop the left are ideas many share. I imagine many of the people's vote crowd today will care far more about stopping Brexit than stopping the left.
I think many on the march today would describe themselves as being on the left, but also will have noted the complete absence of solidarity from the Labour leadership.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I realise the Corbynistas are the source of all evil and love everything bad but I think most things point to more Corbyn supporting types being in favour of the second vote, mostly come round to the idea myself.
It wouldn't have made it as a resolution at the Labour conference if it was just some centrist thing rather than a movement the left is part of.
The contempt for the Second Vote movement from all Corbynista commentators and those around the leadership is very real. They hate it because they have no control of it. And it worries them greatly that even Labour members are part of the problem.
The left's inability to tolerate anything that it cannot control will always ultimately be its undoing.
Chesterfield Labour club have sent a coach. Advertised as "A cross party event" FFS.
They were demonstrating in Chesterfield with a massive banner depicting May and the Corby kid (their party leader) as cowboys running rough shod over the people.
This was on the weekend before a by election LD Gain.87 votes.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I realise the Corbynistas are the source of all evil and love everything bad but I think most things point to more Corbyn supporting types being in favour of the second vote, mostly come round to the idea myself.
It wouldn't have made it as a resolution at the Labour conference if it was just some centrist thing rather than a movement the left is part of.
The contempt for the Second Vote movement from all Corbynista commentators and those around the leadership is very real. They hate it because they have no control of it. And it worries them greatly that even Labour members are part of the problem.
There was plenty of that for the FBPE types who would use it to attack Labour but there's plenty of support among the Corbyn types for a 2nd ref as opposed to using it to attack Corbyn.
For example I would argue with you who rather than stop Brexit would lose the opportunity to stop the left instead but Zoe Williams as one example (who has been pretty supportive of EU all along) who wants to stop Brexit rather than stop the left are ideas many share. I imagine many of the people's vote crowd today will care far more about stopping Brexit than stopping the left.
I think many on the march today would describe themselves as being on the left, but also will have noted the complete absence of solidarity from the Labour leadership.
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
I shall be walking round my garden's green spaces to show support for the other 60-odd million Brits, who are looking at those "Peoples Vote" marching because Brexit was only voted for by badgers - and thinking "what wankers...."
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
+1.
Sums it up perfectly!
Hi Murali
Did you ever catch that tw*t (to use your own word) who attacked you?
On topic, the obvious explanation for what's going on here is that Jeremy Corbyn is an MI5 plant they sent to infiltrate the British left in the 1970s, and he's worked out a way to justify the budget while the Communist threat receded and all his colleagues got made redundant.
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
I shall be walking round my garden's green spaces to show support for the other 60-odd million Brits, who are looking at those "Peoples Vote" marching because Brexit was only voted for by badgers - and thinking "what wankers...."
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
The EU Commission has long operated on the basis that, in the unfortunate event that the people are given the opportunity to cast a direct vote that ends up challenging the direction of travel towards an elite-led European super-state, then a situation has to be contrived where member states are prevailed upon to hold repeated votes until the right result is obtained. You clearly regard that system as democratic, I do not.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
+1.
Sums it up perfectly!
Hi Murali
Did you ever catch that tw*t (to use your own word) who attacked you?
Hi ydoethur,
Ongoing police investigation.
I know where he works - was thinking whether to contact his workplace but then decided to leave it as a Police matter. Would probably complicate matters by trying to get in touch with his work place. Let's just say he's probably got a good job in the City.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I’ll be amazed if there are no Socialist Workers placards on display.
Yes - their strategy is find a popular march and then march in front of it.
I thought swp policy was pro brexit
The far left are pro-Brexit, their late guru Tony Benn was always against the EU.
If the there were somehow a second referendum, the result could well be the same as the last one if the Tory PM was supporting leave with a deal.
Tory party loyalists who support their leader's position and who previously voted remain because Cameron said so, would overwhelmingly vote for May's or whoever's deal.
They would counteract any 2016 leave voters who have changed their minds and Brexiteers on the left and right would vote for it even if they didn't really like it, just to get out.
If the alternative were to remain, the outcome could well be another 52%-48% result for leave with a deal.
Those fanatics marching in London would no doubt then campaign for a third vote.
I know where he works - was thinking whether to contact his workplace but then decided to leave it as a Police matter. Would probably complicate matters by trying to get in touch with his work place. Let's just say he's probably got a good job in the City.
It'd be an interesting conundrum for them if you did approach them. What should one do (not in this case but generally) as an employer if a staff member is accused of assault and generally disreputable behaviour in his private time? Wait for the police investigation, I guess - suspending them seems drastic in case someone makes a spurious allegation, but if they're prominent, it might feel awkward. Should they try to assess the credibility themselves, see if it's supported by witnesses etc.?
When I worked in Switzerland, we had a German employee who was sentenced to 6 months in overnight prison for refusing military service without being eligible for the alternative (I think it required a religious objection and he wasn't religious). The Germans have a system of overnight imprisonment which allows you to continue outside work during the day (a good idea in general IMO), and we decided that it wasn't our business what collisions with the authorities he might be having. But that reflected a general Swiss comjmitment to freedom of speech and dissent - I'm not sure we'd have kept him on if he'd assaulted someone.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
+1.
Sums it up perfectly!
Hi Murali
Did you ever catch that tw*t (to use your own word) who attacked you?
Hi ydoethur,
Ongoing police investigation.
I know where he works - was thinking whether to contact his workplace but then decided to leave it as a Police matter. Would probably complicate matters by trying to get in touch with his work place. Let's just say he's probably got a good job in the City.
In a case involving a workmate who was assaulted which involved damage to a company phone by another insurance market "professional" - the assailant ended up losing his job irrespective of any other legal consequences.
I think my colleague stayed well out of it and he only told his employer because he had to explain away the phone, plus there were witnesses who knew both who saw it all.
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
I shall be walking round my garden's green spaces to show support for the other 60-odd million Brits, who are looking at those "Peoples Vote" marching because Brexit was only voted for by badgers - and thinking "what wankers...."
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
The EU Commission has long operated on the basis that, in the unfortunate event that the people are given the opportunity to cast a direct vote that ends up challenging the direction of travel towards an elite-led European super-state, then a situation has to be contrived where member states are prevailed upon to hold repeated votes until the right result is obtained. You clearly regard that system as democratic, I do not.
The EU Commission hasn’t been secretly bankrolling the charabancs. It’s George Soros, as any fule kno.
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
I shall be walking round my garden's green spaces to show support for the other 60-odd million Brits, who are looking at those "Peoples Vote" marching because Brexit was only voted for by badgers - and thinking "what wankers...."
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
The EU Commission has long operated on the basis that, in the unfortunate event that the people are given the opportunity to cast a direct vote that ends up challenging the direction of travel towards an elite-led European super-state, then a situation has to be contrived where member states are prevailed upon to hold repeated votes until the right result is obtained. You clearly regard that system as democratic, I do not.
Nor I
It is the EU who treats democracy and EU citizens with contempt and cares little about what damage it's policies cause to ordinary people.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
Wow, really? It's as much an organised top down establishment setup as it's possible to have. A bunch of very sore losers.
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
I shall be walking round my garden's green spaces to show support for the other 60-odd million Brits, who are looking at those "Peoples Vote" marching because Brexit was only voted for by badgers - and thinking "what wankers...."
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
The EU Commission has long operated on the basis that, in the unfortunate event that the people are given the opportunity to cast a direct vote that ends up challenging the direction of travel towards an elite-led European super-state, then a situation has to be contrived where member states are prevailed upon to hold repeated votes until the right result is obtained. You clearly regard that system as democratic, I do not.
Nor I
It is the EU who treats democracy and EU citizens with contempt and cares little about what damage it's policies cause to ordinary people.
What damage is that? Like getting rid of roaming charges do you mean?
Chesterfield Labour club have sent a coach. Advertised as "A cross party event" FFS.
They were demonstrating in Chesterfield with a massive banner depicting May and the Corby kid (their party leader) as cowboys running rough shod over the people.
This was on the weekend before a by election LD Gain.87 votes.
LOL - the hard left in action
Also unfair, May appears to be doing her level best to sabotage Brexit.
Corbyn on the other hand needs us to leave to allow his fantasy economic plans.
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
I shall be walking round my garden's green spaces to show support for the other 60-odd million Brits, who are looking at those "Peoples Vote" marching because Brexit was only voted for by badgers - and thinking "what wankers...."
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
And if your "people's vote" returned the same answer a second time, what would you do then?
If you don't accept the result of the first vote, why would you accept the result of the second? How many times would "the people" have to vote before you accept the result of a democratic referendum?
Attempting to make people vote, vote and vote again until they return the "right" answer is about as democratic as an election in Putin's Russia.
What damage is that? Like getting rid of roaming charges do you mean?
Ask that of the people of Greece. While it was probably necessary in the long term to make significant changes in the Greek economy it was made much more painful by the policies of the EU.
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
I shall be walking round my garden's green spaces to show support for the other 60-odd million Brits, who are looking at those "Peoples Vote" marching because Brexit was only voted for by badgers - and thinking "what wankers...."
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
And if your "people's vote" returned the same answer a second time, what would you do then?
If you don't accept the result of the first vote, why would you accept the result of the second? How many times would "the people" have to vote before you accept the result of a democratic referendum?
Attempting to make people vote, vote and vote again until they return the "right" answer is about as democratic as an election in Putin's Russia.
Or we could play rock, paper, scissors? Would probably be quicker and yield much the same result.
@murali_s, think you were wise to leave it to the rozzers. Hope they nail him good and hard. Nobody should be able to get away with stuff with like that.
Not at the march but judging from helicopter shots it looks big. Very big.
I'm sure it is. What of it? Does large march trump large vote? Do large marches outweigh all those who don't march?
It's all very nice, and makes for great video and news articles, but size of march only matters in terms of whether it can credibly be labelled as disappointing or not. Give crowd estimation seems difficult and usually different people put out very different estimates then after a certain point it only matters if it looks big, but even then we've seen big marches before.
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
I realise the Corbynistas are the source of all evil and love everything bad but I think most things point to more Corbyn supporting types being in favour of the second vote, mostly come round to the idea myself.
It wouldn't have made it as a resolution at the Labour conference if it was just some centrist thing rather than a movement the left is part of.
The contempt for the Second Vote movement from all Corbynista commentators and those around the leadership is very real. They hate it because they have no control of it. And it worries them greatly that even Labour members are part of the problem.
There was plenty of that for the FBPE types who would use it to attack Labour but there's plenty of support among the Corbyn types for a 2nd ref as opposed to using it to attack Corbyn.
For example I would argue with you who rather than stop Brexit would lose the opportunity to stop the left instead but Zoe Williams as one example (who has been pretty supportive of EU all along) who wants to stop Brexit rather than stop the left are ideas many share. I imagine many of the people's vote crowd today will care far more about stopping Brexit than stopping the left.
I think many on the march today would describe themselves as being on the left, but also will have noted the complete absence of solidarity from the Labour leadership.
Comments
He's inflexible. a completely different trait. He is absolutely tolerant of your saying anything you like about him, but the probability that it will make him change his mind is small. That is, however, not a trait unusual in politicians, or indeed in the general public.
Pointless.
Wouldn't it also be slightly farcical to hold a referendum to overturn the result of another referendum two years ago using an electoral system we rejected by a landslide in a referendum 7 years ago. One might say why should we respect the result - because the last two referendums were seemingly ignored!
Best of three - or do we keep voting until the 'people' vote 'the right way' i.e. remain.
It won't make a difference, 3 days, 30 days, Israel will continue the occupation and the theft of land and people will continue to excuse them.
The psychological effects of being under far more attack and suffering far more casualties combined with a brutal occupation is much worse.
Continuing the brutal occupation is not going to stop the rockets, it is the whole reason for them. Demanding the opposition stop fighting back without stopping the occupation is obviously not going to work. The only reason to do so is to excuse the continuation of occupation.
The trivialisation comes from the attempts to compare the attacks from both sides as if they ar equal. Of course the hundreds and hundreds of enhanced fireworks (along with some higher powered stuff) causes some damage over decades that will add up.
Nowhere near as much as the serious firepower that comes back the other way. It is a convenient excuse for people like you when only a few casualties and a small amount of damage is caused to talk about hundreds of rockets being fired and make it sound like Israel is under actual seige in the way Palestine often is.
What of the anti-Iraq War march or the pro-Countryside march - were they pointless as well?
I know people understandably get excited by such things, but they will really oversell what it means.
And I'm not even opposed any more to the key aim, albeit not for the same reasons.
You need also to remember just how few journalists there are compared with a decade or so back, both nationally and locally - a local paper like the Huddersfield Examiner would have had a score of reporters; now they’ll be lucky if they have even half a dozen, to cover everything
Looking at their website, the journalist who covered this also works for the Leeds publication as well (most local media is owned by large conglomerates).
Here’s her account of the reporting restrictions:
https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/why-couldnt-report-huddersfield-grooming-15294820
As far as the Khashoggi thing is concerned the suborning of brutal murder by the leader of a country using the apparatus of a state is a big story.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/friends-like-ours/#comments
And I'm not saying the attacks are equal: they're evidently not.
I'm saying they're both wrong. That's a step you seem unable to make, and I do wonder why that might be.
In excusing the rocket attacks, you are showing you are uninterested in the welfare of Israelis, or in peace itself. Oddly, you are also uninterested in the welfare of Palestinians, as the rocket attacks have killed Palestinians as well when they misfire.
A comparable Newcastle gang got sent down a year or two ago. It received less coverage than Julia Hartley-Brewer's knee being touched two decades ago.
How much bigger than the Iraq War march are you expecting today's to be? Since this is the biggest crisis since Suez apparently one assumes the turnout will massively exceed the Iraq War march turnout (let alone fox-hunting one!) but by how much?
As has been said its going to be the usual white middle class remainers (the last ones have been surprisingly undiverse considering its an event in the capital) mostly from London talking a walk through the leafy parts of central London to inform over 17 million people - 90 per cent of whom weren't from London - that they got it wrong and must vote again. Its a collective Violet Elizabeth Bott moment from the chattering classes - i will squeam and squeam and squeam until I get my people's vote.
We know for once Londoners - well 60% of them as more people there voted leave than voted for Sadiq Khan after second preferences at Mayor - didn't get what most of them wanted. Perhaps they just aren't used to the regular experience of much of the rest of the country.
They do represent A voice and arguably a growing voice. There are other voices including the voice that says the result of the 2016 Referendum must be respected and that voice is also heard and nothing is stopping that group having a nice walk round central London or anywhere else.
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1053400721700372481
with
' Drug gangs controlled by Eastern European criminals are fuelling the rising tide of violent crime in London, a Labour MP has claimed.
Tottenham MP David Lammy said drugs were as "prolific as ordering a pizza", comparing the situation to McMafia, a BBC drama about Russian gangsters.
...
Asked who he thought was behind it, he said: "I do know from the police that there are big gangs - Eastern European, Albanian - they traffic people, they traffic drugs and they traffic guns." '
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43653291
So, not really.
The Australian Liberal Party is the example of what happens when a centre right party gets taken over by the liberal elite. The right wing then gravitates to social conservatism which also has no traction. They are just what the Tory Party were becoming under Heath before Thatcher saved them and what they were becoming before Brexit rescued them. But there is no sign of such a saviour anywhere in the Liberal Party - such a person would never be accepted as a candidate.
The Liberals will get destroyed at the election. I doubt they really care. They are all rich and well connected. They will just retreat to their coffee shops and sip Latte and go on the news to complain and just wait their turn again.
Each member of the House of Lords costs us £300 a day - lets spend that money on employing an extra agency nurse in the NHS instead!
Opposing the occupation (peacefully) is all well and good. But we need to move forward. So again I ask (and would appreciate a sane answer this time): how would you move things forward?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/644856/Kirklees_Commissioner_s_Report.pdf
I suspect funding cuts have quite a lot to do with the lack of timely action. Those affecting police and local government spending have been massive compared to the big spending departments.
I'm sure we have been through this before I see little point but very briefly Israel needs to pull back to its borders and there needs to be an international effort to rebuild Palestine. You aren't going to anything out of the Palestinians whilst they continue to be held in poverty. This won't happen whilst Israel continues to occupy Palestine with international approval.
I took part in the Iraq march of a million plus. Blair ignored us but we never forgot that or forgave him. It's part of the reason he is a tragic pariah.
Marching is an emotional commitment. It is much more that signing a petition or commenting on a blog. It may or may not influence parliament in the short term. I don't know. The Iraq experience is not a good omen. But it will affect the long term. Many Tories will be marching today and they will not forget or forgive if they are ignored and the consequences are dire.
Really?
Okay, you're being *really* silly. Are you saying the rockets don't exist? That they're not fired? That they're in some ways part of a PR offensive (presumably orchestrated by Israel)? That they are in fact, as you sickly claimed, 'fireworks' ?
Your last paragraph is fine. I'm intrigued about how you think we'll realistically get to that position, and how the Palestinians who fire rockets are helping achieve that position.
And you might want to consider that the Palestinian rocket attacks have been criticised and condemned internationally, by the UN, EU, Amnesty and others. It's fine criticising Israeli actions for not having international approval; but you should also criticise the Palestinians when they don't, either.
There was just a general policy of inaction from the top - look at how the whistleblowers in Rotherham were treated.
No denying the cuts are having a wide impact now - particularly in children's services where many councils are facing severe problems meeting demand. But it wasn't austerity that caused these girls to be abused and raped or see the problem swept under the carpet for years.
https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/grooming-kirklees-council-police-schools-15295152
Barry Sheerman:
“I got a very negative reaction to my Westminster debate”
https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/mp-barry-sheerman-police-council-11619257
Is European ok as a descriptive term - but not Asian. Surprising Lammy doesn't highlight this as a benefit of EU membership and freedom of movement which has directly contributed to the increasing incidence of those gangs and the ease by which they can exploit people and particularly women across borders.
Even Javid steps round the situation - they weren't men of Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, Israeli, Thai, Burmese or Mongolian origin. More than half the world's population is from Asia and thus 'Asian' - its such a lazy term we use in this country.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/08/police-investigating-half-crimes
West Yorkshire reported an 11% crime rise last year, yet it has decided not to chase up half of them. Crimes “including child abuse and terrorism” must be pursued by civilian staff, “prompting fears that public safety is at risk”.
This is rubbish. The figures are put together by local police forces to a variety of ends. They reflect police activity, insurance requirements, Home Office priorities and media pressure. The only remotely reliable crime figures come from the official Crime Survey for England and Wales (formerly known as the British Crime Survey), and they show Britain’s crime rate, however defined, as falling for over a decade. This year there was some evidence of that fall slackening, but even for much-publicised violence, the 2018 survey recorded “no change in overall violent offences”.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia
We probably can't get to that position, the international community can at east not cheer them on though, it could at least help or at least make the alternative method in their interests. Rather than the current approach where keeping the conflict going benefits them. Palestinians shooting rockets doesn't make a difference, Israel decided it was worth the gains long ago. Useful as a line for some people to defend Israel I guess.
I also might want to consider the Palestinians don't approve of gay marriage and that is something I approve of, in terms of ending the conflict though it is pretty meaningless. The easiest way to stop the Palestinian rocket attacks is to stop the brutal occupation as that is the cause of them, why don't you want them stopped?
By using them as an excuse to continue what started them you are continuing the cycle which causes them to be fired. Last post on the subject.
It wouldn't have made it as a resolution at the Labour conference if it was just some centrist thing rather than a movement the left is part of.
EDIT: I'll look out for them and report back.
Their version of getting the trains running on time...
http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/landtage/hessen.htm
For example I would argue with you who rather than stop Brexit would lose the opportunity to stop the left instead but Zoe Williams as one example (who has been pretty supportive of EU all along) who wants to stop Brexit rather than stop the left are ideas many share. I imagine many of the people's vote crowd today will care far more about stopping Brexit than stopping the left.
But if that's the route you want to head down, then your position seems filled with anti-Zionist PR. In fact, calling the rockets 'fireworks' seems archetypal PR: it downplays their effects and excuses the perpetrators.
Have you considered that the Palestinian extremists firing the rockets might not be satisfied with the end of the occupation? That they might want to wipe Israel off the map? That is why Palestinians should at least acknowledge Israel's right to exist: another position you deny. It'd be a good start to building up much-needed trust. And yes, Israel has many more moves to make.
What matters are not states, not leaders or politicians. What matters are people. Both the Israeli and Palestinian people are being let down by their politicians and leaders. But that goes as much for the Palestinian leaders as it does the Israeli ones.
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
https://order-order.com/2018/10/19/peoples-vote-delete-disturbing-must-watch-video-backlash/
The remainers will no doubt say 2 million attended and the brexireers will say around 150000...
It will then become another slanting match..
The echo chamber is in full swing today..
They were demonstrating in Chesterfield with a massive banner depicting May and the Corby kid (their party leader) as cowboys running rough shod over the people.
This was on the weekend before a by election LD Gain.87 votes.
https://twitter.com/boemuseum/status/1053598498308927489
Sums it up perfectly!
Did you ever catch that tw*t (to use your own word) who attacked you?
Ongoing police investigation.
I know where he works - was thinking whether to contact his workplace but then decided to leave it as a Police matter. Would probably complicate matters by trying to get in touch with his work place. Let's just say he's probably got a good job in the City.
If the there were somehow a second referendum, the result could well be the same as the last one if the Tory PM was supporting leave with a deal.
Tory party loyalists who support their leader's position and who previously voted remain because Cameron said so, would overwhelmingly vote for May's or whoever's deal.
They would counteract any 2016 leave voters who have changed their minds and Brexiteers on the left and right would vote for it even if they didn't really like it, just to get out.
If the alternative were to remain, the outcome could well be another 52%-48% result for leave with a deal.
Those fanatics marching in London would no doubt then campaign for a third vote.
When I worked in Switzerland, we had a German employee who was sentenced to 6 months in overnight prison for refusing military service without being eligible for the alternative (I think it required a religious objection and he wasn't religious). The Germans have a system of overnight imprisonment which allows you to continue outside work during the day (a good idea in general IMO), and we decided that it wasn't our business what collisions with the authorities he might be having. But that reflected a general Swiss comjmitment to freedom of speech and dissent - I'm not sure we'd have kept him on if he'd assaulted someone.
I think my colleague stayed well out of it and he only told his employer because he had to explain away the phone, plus there were witnesses who knew both who saw it all.
It is the EU who treats democracy and EU citizens with contempt and cares little about what damage it's policies cause to ordinary people.
Also unfair, May appears to be doing her level best to sabotage Brexit.
Corbyn on the other hand needs us to leave to allow his fantasy economic plans.
If you don't accept the result of the first vote, why would you accept the result of the second? How many times would "the people" have to vote before you accept the result of a democratic referendum?
Attempting to make people vote, vote and vote again until they return the "right" answer is about as democratic as an election in Putin's Russia.
@murali_s, think you were wise to leave it to the rozzers. Hope they nail him good and hard. Nobody should be able to get away with stuff with like that.
It's all very nice, and makes for great video and news articles, but size of march only matters in terms of whether it can credibly be labelled as disappointing or not. Give crowd estimation seems difficult and usually different people put out very different estimates then after a certain point it only matters if it looks big, but even then we've seen big marches before.